S05.E07: The Gift

[BooBear]

With the monarchy in KL pretty much overthrown, is the Game of Thrones an exercise in futility?  If "the many don't fear the few" any more and overthrow the monarchy, there would be no throne to play for and the throne room would just be a ruin like in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying.

On thing that is throwing me is that it isn't feeling like "game of thrones" anymore.  It is like the Lannister's and King's Landing got taken out.  I enjoyed seeing Cerci get taken into custody but in a way it ruins things for me because she seems so stupid I no longer have any faith in her being a player at the table. Her dad was the player and she said "yeh right" after everything he said.  The enemy's of Kings Landing will now know just how weak the Lannister's are now.

 

I am frustrated with the Sansa plot because it is just another (of many) Sansa in big trouble plots. If I was Ramsey and the writers of this show were in front of me, I would be bored and they would be flayed. Just saying.  Why did Sansa think she could trust reek or theon? For all she knows Theon killed her brothers.

 

The writing on the Dorne part is really bad. Bad writing can work with good actors but I am not sure this part has good actors. They idea that Marcella would actually say to Jamie "you hair is different." ugh painful and lame. Their entire conversation was insane. Given what just happened. She should have been at least a bit concerned that her uncle was there and people seemed to be trying to take her.

 

And the most painful part of the night, not Sansa, Jorah Mormont. Boy he has it bad.

[Philbert]

 

she had Ned executed because he found out her dirty little secret,

 

No, that was Joffrey. Cersei helped negotiate the deal that would have sent Ned north to the Wall and gotten the Starks off the Lannister's backs.

[ambi76]

Myrcella said she had been in Dorne for years now much time has passed on the show?

 

A common assumption seems to be one season aproxx. one year on the show so it's probably Myrcella's third year in Dorne now (from season two onwards).

They somehow forgot to make Gilly's baby age though (Little Sam should be a toddler of 1.5 to 2 years now.)

[SimoneS]

Just because the plight of many women a pre 20th century European style culture is portrayed accurately does not mean that people should not object. If nothing else, it shows some social awareness and empathy for women who still live under these brutal circumstances today.

 

As for Cersei, I am a feminist to my core and even I cannot bring myself to blame that bastard Tywin for her horrific decisions and overall lack of character. I understand Cersei's determination to be independent and gain power, but she is the one who decided to have children with her brother which imperiled them all. I don't see how Tywin can be blamed for this or for her decision to conspire to kill Robert or her irrational hatred of Tyrion. Tywin clearly explained to Cersei that she has to marry Loras because the Lannisters' mines were no longer producing gold so they had to strengthen their alliance with the Tyrells. Instead, Cersei works to weaken the Tyrells who are their only real allies at the moment. 

 

More thoughts about last night:

 

RIP, Aemon. He had a more peaceful death that many characters on this show.

 

I thought Sam was pretty brave when he got back up determined to fight those two guys. Thank goodness Ghost showed up.

 

So we have confirmation that Littefinger conspired with Olenna to murder Joffrey. She is so entertaining. I laughed when she and the High Sparrow were comparing old age aches and pains. Diana Rigg and Jonathan Pryce sharing scenes. I hope we get more. What genius casting!

 

I thought Daario's advice to Daenerys about killing all the masters at the games was pretty good. However, I confident that Tyrion will be able to come up with a more elegant solution.

 

ETA: It should have been Tyrells not Martells.

Edited May 25, 2015 by SimoneS

[SHOgirl]

Between the retail market in dwarf cocks and the bounty on dwarf heads, you'd think Tyrion would have pieced out at a higher price on the auction block.

Cersei putting herself into this bad spot is just delicious. She systematically eliminated everyone with enough sense to stick a hand up Tommen's little puppet butt and get her out of there. Baelish, Juan Peron and Mrs. Peel are the only brains left walking around in King's Landing.

I haven't read the books and I don't know anything about the books, but I'm thinking the pace must be slowing way down because they're running out of Martin's story. I think it's been two or three years since someone plunked a typewriter down in his lap at the Academy Awards and told him to get back to work.

P.S>Did you all really object to Short Hair Sandsnake's gratuitous topless display? Because, damn, she was really sensual as she slipped those straps down. ("They're real and they're spectacular.") As an equal opportunity admirer of nearly naked pretty people, Daario Naharis is very impressive, fresh out of the shower in The Age of Adaline.

Who is Juan Peron and Mrs Peel?

[peggy06]

I think you make a good point, if that's where they go with this.  Some of the critics noting the number of rapes on GOT noted that there have been three so far, but it's interesting that they didn't classify Ramsay's torture and violation of Theon-- which was definitely sexually focused (if perhaps not literally penetrative)-- as yet another rape.  If you count that, there's been four (not to mention the almost-rapes like with Gilly on tonight's episode). 

 

So you make a good point-- if they indeed shift our focus to hoping Sansa gets revenge on Reek/Theon, then that is making us root for one victim against another, which is really, seriously a messed up thing for the show to do.

 

I'm just frustrated that Sansa is back in the "victim" position and at the mercy of yet another sadist, particularly when she seemed to be becoming much more of a stronger person this season.  We've seen this all before back with Sansa and with Jofferey at King's Landing, so I'm just praying that they flip the victim-Sansa routine and that corkscrew (or whatever she picked up tonight) ends up jammed between Ramsay's legs ASAP.

I really didn't get this at all from the show - I mean the focus turning to Sansa wanting revenge on Theon. I think it's clear Sansa knows her enemy is Ramsay. Theon is a pathetic slave who may disgust her, but my takeaway from the episode is that Sansa knows she's on her own. Prior to this, she had the serving woman's words about her friends in the North, and the candle signal, and she even had hopes of getting Theon's help. Now, she knows she just has to rely on her own wits. I don't find that to be an insult or objectionable writing.

Edited May 25, 2015 by peggy06

[Morrigan2575]

Who is Juan Peron and Mrs Peel?

Jonathon Pryce (High Sparrow) played Juan Peron in Evita

Diana Rigg (Lady Olenna) played Mrs. Peel in The Avengers, 70s British Spy show

Edited May 25, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[ElizaD]

I'm still amazed at the posters who object to what is happening to Sansa at Winterfell. The Boltons, father and son, are entirely vicious, one cool and calculating, one aspiring to cool and calculating while burning with murderous rage and resentment. Sansa is a captive surrounded by  Dreadfort soldiers and servants, presumably they also are terrified of the Boltons, exactly what agency do you expect her to have? 

As for objections to rape, that was the experience of many medieval women. Women of great Houses were married off at pre-teen or early teenage years, and valued as brood mares with dowries and hopefully some political value. Love or even affection...that might or might not happen, but it was very much an afterthought.

There is no point in viewing Sansa's situation thru a 21st century perspective...the idea of women's rights would be laughable to the medieval world.

 

The show wants us to view things from a 21st century perspective. It applauds Arya and Brienne as plucky warrior women, presents the bigotry Tyrion faces as an injustice, and tackles religious extremism in a way that echoes modern movements. It's not a matter of medieval realities but the choice of the modern showrunners that Tyrion's slavery becomes an easy little adventure and Sansa's marriage means captivity and rape.

 

The treatment of women dependent on their class, as did that of men. What could be done to a peasant differed from what could be done to a noble. And noble women in particular did have rights - they could appeal to their relatives and to religious authorities to have their marriages annulled or a divorce granted on the grounds of abuse by the husband. People weren't idiots and could see that early consummation led to cases like Henry Tudor's 13-year-old mother nearly dying in childbirth and never again getting pregnant: the death of a young mother, especially when infant mortality meant you were never safe with just one heir, would defeat the whole purpose of marrying to secure power and wealth. So early consummation was frowned on, and there are plenty of examples of royal marriages that were not consummated when the bride was young; the peasants, in general, married at a later age. Rape was a crime that, if accepted as such and proven (and let's not pretend we're perfect today when it comes to that), led to serious punishment: neither the law nor the people formed a hivemind of universal, practical or emotional indifference to rape. GOT is not a realistic portrayal of medieval customs and attitudes: it's a very selective modern interpretation of a wartime situation in a fantasy setting where Tyrion and Jorah get to be slaves without needing to worry about male rape, no matter how realistic that would be.

 

Ramsay's abuse of Sansa is idiotic from the long-term perspective that Roose should be capable of. By being violent with her, he risks causing injury that endangers her ability to have useful Stark/Bolton children or might even cause the miscarriage of a child that has already been conceived.

[Primetimer]

It was good enough for Margaery and Loras, and it's good enough for Cersei.

Read the story

[panthergirl13]

I was really hoping they were throwing Cersei into the cell with Margaery.  I gotta say, I'm not sure which one would come out alive, but it would be amusing to watch.

 

Ha! I made that exact comment to my daughter when the episode ended!

Master Aemon will be reincarnated as Michael Bolton. (seriously, go look at his face again) Even the name would work in the GoT universe.

[luckyroll3]

I kind of liked the scenes between Bronn and the Sand Snakes. While the strip show was a bit much, I did love the reactions of the other girls. As an eye roller, I totally appreciated where they were coming from.

 

That scene was hilarious, because the other 2 girls had this look on their faces that just screamed, "here she fucking goes again, finding any reason to show off her naked body. Ugh."

 

Loved the entire last scene, with Cersi trying not to break her smile while slowly realizing that she'd been outmaneuvered.  Greatness!

[areca]

He was doing what Dornish do... Fightin and fuckin...no time for book learnin or fancy talkin lessons

Oberyn was considered a very learned man - he even spent time in maester school...

[The Mighty Peanut]

"I am Shortacus."

"No, I am!"

"No, I am Shortacus!"

"....I have a very particular set of skills."

[Knuckles]

Rape was a crime that, if accepted as such and proven (and let's not pretend we're perfect today when it comes to that), led to serious punishment: neither the law nor the people formed a hivemind of universal, practical or emotional indifference to rape. GOT is not a realistic portrayal of medieval customs and attitudes: it's a very selective modern interpretation of a wartime situation in a fantasy setting....

 

I disagree strongly. Until the 1970s, the idea of marital rape in the US was unknown, it had to be fought out in a well-publicized legal battle. Still is not recognized in many countries...so when Sansa said yes, she said yes to her husband's effective ownership of her. The point is often made that you have only those rights that you can defend...Sansa has no family to act on her behalf, and the legal authority in the North is now Roose Bolton, so where does that leave her? Much of the fantasy world of Westeros is borrowed from the War of the Roses in England, and the Capet/Valois kings in France, and that is a murderous, power-driven world, and the inherent brutality is portrayed realistically in Westeros which makes it shocking to 21st Century eyes, but not false. 

The use of the word "hive mind" is misleading, as there is no universal reaction to any issue. Westeros is firmly rooted in what is known of English and French history at the time and is true to that world. As for slavery...whether it is serfdom, with the peasants tied to the land itself, or to the local lords, or outright buying and selling of human beings, it existed and continues to exist in many forms. Essos shows the viewer an alternative to the serfdom of Westeros. 

[Potanical Pardon]

Tywin clearly explained to Cersei that she has to marry Loras because the Lannisters' mines were no longer producing gold so they had to strengthen their alliance with the Martells. Instead, Cersei works to weaken the Martells who are their only real allies at the moment.

The Martells are Oberyn, Doran, and Trystane over in Dorne. Lady O, Mace, Loras and Margaery are Tyrells who are from Highgarden. I used to get confused too since they're both from the South but different souths relative to KL. Highgarden is like the capital of The Reach while Sunspear is the capital of Dorne. And Dorne is south of The Reach. I don't know why the characters just keep referring to it as it's entire region as opposed to the city like we do everywhere else. Maybe it's like Africa in that world and the people unfortunately lump all of it together as if there's no real difference that matters. We see Sunspear is all gardens but Highgarden...I don't know, may or may not be garden-ous but Lady O and Margaery used to be seen all the time walking around Kings Landing gardens.

 

Jonathon Pryce (High Sparrow) played Juan Peron in Evita

Diana Rigg (Lady Olenna) played Mrs. Peel in The Avengers, 70s British Spy show

They are also both James Bond alumni. Poor Jonathon Pryce had to be a Bond villain in arguably the worst Bond film where his main goal was to sell a lot of newspapers or I guess get blog/article ad hits. Okay that is evil after all. And Diana Rigg is arguably the best Bond Girl because she's one of the few with an actual brain, could kick ass and had depth - she got James Bond to settle down and marry her in one of the best, if not the best Bond films. George Lazenby gets a bad rap only because he wasn't Sean Connery, not that he played Bond poorly; he didn't. And On Her Majesty's Secret Service along with The Spy Who Loved Me are much better than Goldfinger that for some reason always gets touted as the best. Anyways, she's awesome and it was perfect casting since she looks/acts so much like Natalie Dormer.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Tandaemonium

[Constantinople]

I'm kind of surprised that people dump on Cersei for not being "as smart as she thinks she is". I've always felt that this was another example of how women are treated in this (*ahem*) fictional world. Had she been a man, I think Tywin would have brought her up much more differently, teaching her the ropes. For sure, he was a miserable old bastard, but he was smart, except when it came to his kids. He even treated Tyrion like shit for his dwarfism and yet, Tyrion is one of, if not the, smartest characters on the show. Who gets all the attention? Pretty boy Jamie, that's who. Jamie has his strengths, handsome, a great fighter, charming, etc, but had Cersei or even Tyrion been granted the same consideration from their father, I think House Lannister would be in a much stronger position that it finds itself in. I think it's just a sign of the times but I see Cersei as being a lot of wasted potential. She certainly has the temperament to do what has to be done but perhaps not the schooling.

Earlier this season the High Sparrow mentioned the Targaryens disarmed the Faith Militant over two hundred years ago. You don't need to be particularly bright or well educated to realize that the Targaryens probably had a reason for doing that. But Cersei never stopped to reflect on that. Nor do you need to be particularly bright or well educated to know that doing everything you can to blow-up the alliance with your key ally is a bad idea.

[SimoneS]

The Martells are Oberyn, Doran, and Trystane over in Dorne. Lady O, Mace, Loras and Margaery are Tyrells who are from Highgarden. I used to get confused too since they're both from the South but different souths relative to KL. Highgarden is like the capital of The Reach while Sunspear is the capital of Dorne. And Dorne is south of The Reach. I don't know why the characters just keep referring to it as it's entire region as opposed to the city like we do everywhere else. Maybe it's like Africa in that world and the people unfortunately lump all of it together as if there's no real difference that matters. We see Sunspear is all gardens but Highgarden...I don't know, may or may not be garden-ous but Lady O and Margaery used to be seen all the time walking around Kings Landing gardens.

 

Oops, I made the correction. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

And about Cersei, not only has she armed these religious fanatics and given them authority over the Throne eroding Tommen's power, she sent away both Jamie and Meryn so the Kingsgard is weakened and her contempt for her uncle has resulted in the Lannister troops being at Casterly Rock. So who is there to advocate on her behalf and save her? Littlefinger? Please.

Edited May 25, 2015 by SimoneS

[cambridgeguy]

 

I thought Sam was pretty brave when he got back up determined to fight those two guys. Thank goodness Ghost showed up.

Hey, if you're only going to have one friend you can do worse than an enormous wolf.  Ghost has excellent timing too - if he had shown up earlier Sam wouldn't have had a chance to get back up and make a badass boast, and if he had shown up later Sam would have been dead.

[Philbert]

 

Diana Rigg (Lady Olenna) played Mrs. Peel in The Avengers, 70s British Spy show

 

One of the great cult classic shows of the 60's/70's and still highly entertaining. Her part was played by Uma Thurmond in the Gods awful film version a few years back...but Dame Diana remains the one, true Emma Peel :)

Edited May 25, 2015 by Philbert

[annsterg]

I thought for sure that Littlefinger would have his creature Olyvar killed or disappeared to remove the witness against Maergery and Loras. Maybe he still will.

I think the crime Cersei is held for is the fornication/adultery with Lancel and their role in Robert's death, NOT the twincest.

[Philbert]

 

The show wants us to view things from a 21st century perspective. It applauds Arya and Brienne as plucky warrior women, presents the bigotry Tyrion faces as an injustice, and tackles religious extremism in a way that echoes modern movements. It's not a matter of medieval realities but the choice of the modern showrunners that Tyrion's slavery becomes an easy little adventure and Sansa's marriage means captivity and rape.

 I wouldn't argue that point but it's certainly not what Martin himself intended. But as others have said-The show is the show, the books are the books.

[Constantinople]

I thought for sure that Littlefinger would have his creature Olyvar killed or disappeared to remove the witness against Maergery and Loras. Maybe he still will.

I think the crime Cersei is held for is the fornication/adultery with Lancel and their role in Robert's death, NOT the twincest.

That's my guess as well, though it was interesting that the High Sparrow said the trials would be held as they were before the Targaryens. He may believe the Faith's authority is separate from and predates the Iron Throne. Although Tommen signed the decree allowing the Faith Militant to arm itself, they may not believe their authority derives from Tommen's legitimacy. Plus Tommen's legitimacy may be something "the few" care about, and the High Sparrow asked Lady Olenna what will happen when the many stop fearing the few.

[madam magpie]

The show wants us to view things from a 21st century perspective. It applauds Arya and Brienne as plucky warrior women, presents the bigotry Tyrion faces as an injustice, and tackles religious extremism in a way that echoes modern movements. It's not a matter of medieval realities but the choice of the modern showrunners that Tyrion's slavery becomes an easy little adventure and Sansa's marriage means captivity and rape.

I don't think so. Women in a culture like the one portrayed in Game of Thrones would always be more like property even than a lower class man. Women were of no importance except as baby breeders for centuries. It's been less than 200 years in years in this country that women's rights were even a thing to discuss. So the idea that the women are treated as playthings at the mercy of the men is completely believable to me.

None of that means there weren't exceptions or that a handful of women didn't live differently or become warriors. Elizabeth I and Joan of Arc come to mind. But just because Joan of Arc knew how to wield a sword doesn't mean women weren't raped and severely mistreated constantly during her time.

By all means, we should condemn what's happening to Sansa. It's horrific. But from where I sit, it's also par for the course. Hopefully her fate will change before Ramsay kills her or she kills herself.

I also wouldn't call Tyrion's journey an easy adventure. He's been beaten, locked up, chained, humiliated. Sure, I'd rather have his fate than Sansa's, but he's not just been enjoying a fun road trip.

Edited May 25, 2015 by madam magpie

[peggy06]

One of the great cult classic shows of the 60's/70's and still highly entertaining. Her part was played by Uma Thurmond in the Gods awful film version a few years back...but Dame Diana remains the one, true Emma Peel :)

For those who get Cozi TV, The Avengers (Mrs. Peel years) is being shown weeknights.

[Fiddler1]

One of the great cult classic shows of the 60's/70's and still highly entertaining. Her part was played by Uma Thurmond in the Gods awful film version a few years back...but Dame Diana remains the one, true Emma Peel :)

You said it!  She was my role model in the 60's (who am I kidding...she still is, 50 years later!!)   Mrs Peel was smart, gorgeous, and skilled -- no fluffy sidekick role for her!  Anybody not familiar with her back then, do a quick google search and check out a few old pictures.  :)

 

Seeing her and Jonathan Pryce together = gold!

[FlowerofCarnage]

Every time I look at Daario I can't help but thinks he looks like he works at a coffee shop in a gentrified part of Merreen!

I swear Littlefinger is the Poppa Pope(Scandal reference) of Westeros.

raise your hand if you miss Tywin. He would have shut down the Westerosi Taliban with a quickness.

[peggy06]

I think the show (and maybe the books, not a book reader) actually wants to have it both ways WRT the point of view on societal mores. On the one hand, the show has the excuse of its setting to show brutality, gore, violence, and still be considered respectable or quality TV. But on the other hand, the way they are playing Dany, it's clear we are supposed to take a modern day view of slavery. otherwise why make such a point of her anti-slavery stance? Similarly, Sansa's wedding night rape was showcased as the shocking climax to an episode. Obviously it was done for maximum impact. If this is supposed to be considered par for the course in Westeros at that time, why was Theon horrified? Why were we intended to be horrified?

 

The point of view is an issue faced by all period shows, and it's almost impossible not to defer to the current day, without turning off a large portion of the audience.

[CletusMusashi]

Is it wrong that I don't really care if Theon is horrified? Just put him out of my misery already.

And then have Nymeria come home and eat Ramsay.

[LuciaMia]

 

I was really hoping they were throwing Cersei into the cell with Margaery.

Ha, you read my mind. That's the only way they could have made that scene any sweeter.

 

So...I guess the slavers didn't get the memo that only free men would be allowed to compete in the re-opened fighting pits?

 

Now that it's his mom as well as his wife thrown into the dudgeons, I wonder if Tommen will finally take some action? 'Specially after that intense 'mother love' speech Cersei just gave him.

[madam magpie]

I think the show (and maybe the books, not a book reader) actually wants to have it both ways WRT the point of view on societal mores. On the one hand, the show has the excuse of its setting to show brutality, gore, violence, and still be considered respectable or quality TV. But on the other hand, the way they are playing Dany, it's clear we are supposed to take a modern day view of slavery. otherwise why make such a point of her anti-slavery stance? Similarly, Sansa's wedding night rape was showcased as the shocking climax to an episode. Obviously it was done for maximum impact. If this is supposed to be considered par for the course in Westeros at that time, why was Theon horrified? Why were we intended to be horrified?

The point of view is an issue faced by all period shows, and it's almost impossible not to defer to the current day, without turning off a large portion of the audience.

There were always people who didn't support slavery. Just as there were always people who didn't think women deserved to be raped. What's different today is that those people are now the norm in the western world. They weren't during Medieval times. Obviously, Game of Thrones is fiction, so the cultural rules its world adheres too are also fiction. But I have no problem believing that if there had been a woman in the 14th or 15th century who had and could control dragons, she'd rise to a position of power, even as women were seen as property elsewhere or as slavery was widely accepted. I don't think Dany is where she is because she thinks slavery is wrong. It's because she has dragons and seemingly magical powers. She's also smart (most of the time) and uses that to her advantage. But she's also facing incredible opposition to her more progressive worldview. Certainly people have always held views that opposed the norm and were more democratic. That's what happened during the Enlightenment. But it took centuries for those ideas to become commonplace. What we're seeing on Game of Thrones is a very early stage and a battle between our modern ideology and the old guard, when the old guard was still very powerful. Edited May 25, 2015 by madam magpie

[Slovenly Muse]

I actually think Jon did well leaving Ghost at The Wall. One of the major problems, possibly the biggest problem, with Jon's situation, is that he's announced a plan to harbour Wildlings, whom the majority of the Night's Watch hate and want to kill, and now he's going off in search of them and leaving his own people alone to stew in this new change. The possibilities of what he might be coming back TO when he returns with the Wildlings, are definitely worrying, and possibly where the most danger lies for him. Ghost is like an extension of Jon, in a way. His presence at The Wall is a reminder to the Night's Watch that Jon is still in control, and a way of keeping possible dissenters in line. Whether Jon chose to leave him, or Ghost chose to stay, almost doesn't matter. Jon needs a supporter at The Wall with a little more muscle than Sam.

 

Great comments about slavery for Tyrion and Jorah being an "easy adventure." I forgot to mention this last night. I mean, if slavers in this world are so suggestible that they can be talked around to anything with minimal effort, then it's not really SLAVERY, is it? More like a very unpleasant form of travel. Tyrion and Jorah were captured by slavers who intended to mutilate and separate them, and all it takes is a few words to keep them firmly set on their desired course. Apart from a few little token resistances for dramatic effect, Tyrion and Jorah haven't actually been made to do anything they don't want to, and they haven't been prevented from doing what they DO want to! Is slavery on this continent equivalent to presenting your wrists for manacles and saying, "Mereen, please" with some whips and chains around you for show? Talk about a wasted opportunity for drama.

 

Ugh. Every time someone does or doesn't get raped on their wedding night on this show, the same point comes up about how Medieval people wouldn't have considered it rape, so why do we? BECAUSE IT IS! Just because people back then wouldn't have used the word, doesn't mean that it was not what was happening. Just because it was "par for the course" doesn't mean it wasn't horrific and damaging and wrong. That's part of what these stories are showing us. It's also why the laws in our country have changed over time as women have gained rights, to prevent these sorts of brutal inhuman "traditions" from continuing. Just because women didn't have rights in Medieval times doesn't mean they weren't human beings who experienced pain and deserved to be treated like people. Saying that Sansa's situation would have been "commonplace" does nothing to give context to her suffering. Lots of terrible things have happened in the past. The Spanish Inquisition, or the Salem witch trials, for example, were not considered "wrong" when they happened, but with our modern view, we can look back and see that they SHOULD have been wrong. Hurting people that way and for those reasons was horrific and unjust, and we shudder to think of it ever happening again, no matter what people back then would have said about "the devil's influence" or "heresy." What is the point in arguing over whether or not the word "rape" would have been used back then? We can use it now, and accurately, to describe a practice that happened back then, and has since been criminalized because of how abusive and dehumanizing it was/is. Is Ramsay not such a bad guy after all, because he was acting within his legal rights as a husband? No! He did what he did because he WANTED to hurt her, because he is a MONSTER, and he took advantage of the law to let him do that without consequences, because the law was WRONG! Where is the point of contention in this? I honestly do not understand why this argument keeps happening, and what it even is! It's one thing to argue about whether a show is able to accurately portray a culture of misogyny without actually participating in the misogyny (see "Mad Men" for doing this well, and "The Sopranos" for doing this poorly), but splitting hairs about what would have been called "rape" in Medieval Europe is pointless. We know better.

[paigow]

Oberyn was considered a very learned man - he even spent time in maester school...

Not disputing that...originally it was answering why Oberyn was not teaching baby snakes any interpersonal / cultural skills. Just spear, poison and brothel classes.

Edited May 25, 2015 by paigow

[Hecate7]

I think you make a good point, if that's where they go with this.  Some of the critics noting the number of rapes on GOT noted that there have been three so far, but it's interesting that they didn't classify Ramsay's torture and violation of Theon-- which was definitely sexually focused (if perhaps not literally penetrative)-- as yet another rape.  If you count that, there's been four (not to mention the almost-rapes like with Gilly on tonight's episode). 

 

So you make a good point-- if they indeed shift our focus to hoping Sansa gets revenge on Reek/Theon, then that is making us root for one victim against another, which is really, seriously a messed up thing for the show to do.

 

I'm just frustrated that Sansa is back in the "victim" position and at the mercy of yet another sadist, particularly when she seemed to be becoming much more of a stronger person this season.  We've seen this all before back with Sansa and with Jofferey at King's Landing, so I'm just praying that they flip the victim-Sansa routine and that corkscrew (or whatever she picked up tonight) ends up jammed between Ramsay's legs ASAP.

 

Yes, because she'll be so much less of a victim when Roose Bolton either has his army string her up and flay her, or summarily executes poor little fat Walda and marries the freshly widowed Sansa on the spot. That'll totally be worth it for two seconds of gratification.

[Hecate7]

I actually think Jon did well leaving Ghost at The Wall. One of the major problems, possibly the biggest problem, with Jon's situation, is that he's announced a plan to harbour Wildlings, whom the majority of the Night's Watch hate and want to kill, and now he's going off in search of them and leaving his own people alone to stew in this new change. The possibilities of what he might be coming back TO when he returns with the Wildlings, are definitely worrying, and possibly where the most danger lies for him. Ghost is like an extension of Jon, in a way. His presence at The Wall is a reminder to the Night's Watch that Jon is still in control, and a way of keeping possible dissenters in line. Whether Jon chose to leave him, or Ghost chose to stay, almost doesn't matter. Jon needs a supporter at The Wall with a little more muscle than Sam.

 

Great comments about slavery for Tyrion and Jorah being an "easy adventure." I forgot to mention this last night. I mean, if slavers in this world are so suggestible that they can be talked around to anything with minimal effort, then it's not really SLAVERY, is it? More like a very unpleasant form of travel. Tyrion and Jorah were captured by slavers who intended to mutilate and separate them, and all it takes is a few words to keep them firmly set on their desired course. Apart from a few little token resistances for dramatic effect, Tyrion and Jorah haven't actually been made to do anything they don't want to, and they haven't been prevented from doing what they DO want to! Is slavery on this continent equivalent to presenting your wrists for manacles and saying, "Mereen, please" with some whips and chains around you for show? Talk about a wasted opportunity for drama.

 

Ugh. Every time someone does or doesn't get raped on their wedding night on this show, the same point comes up about how Medieval people wouldn't have considered it rape, so why do we? BECAUSE IT IS! Just because people back then wouldn't have used the word, doesn't mean that it was not what was happening. Just because it was "par for the course" doesn't mean it wasn't horrific and damaging and wrong. That's part of what these stories are showing us. It's also why the laws in our country have changed over time as women have gained rights, to prevent these sorts of brutal inhuman "traditions" from continuing. Just because women didn't have rights in Medieval times doesn't mean they weren't human beings who experienced pain and deserved to be treated like people. Saying that Sansa's situation would have been "commonplace" does nothing to give context to her suffering. Lots of terrible things have happened in the past. The Spanish Inquisition, or the Salem witch trials, for example, were not considered "wrong" when they happened, but with our modern view, we can look back and see that they SHOULD have been wrong. Hurting people that way and for those reasons was horrific and unjust, and we shudder to think of it ever happening again, no matter what people back then would have said about "the devil's influence" or "heresy." What is the point in arguing over whether or not the word "rape" would have been used back then? We can use it now, and accurately, to describe a practice that happened back then, and has since been criminalized because of how abusive and dehumanizing it was/is. Is Ramsay not such a bad guy after all, because he was acting within his legal rights as a husband? No! He did what he did because he WANTED to hurt her, because he is a MONSTER, and he took advantage of the law to let him do that without consequences, because the law was WRONG! Where is the point of contention in this? I honestly do not understand why this argument keeps happening, and what it even is! It's one thing to argue about whether a show is able to accurately portray a culture of misogyny without actually participating in the misogyny (see "Mad Men" for doing this well, and "The Sopranos" for doing this poorly), but splitting hairs about what would have been called "rape" in Medieval Europe is pointless. We know better.

Straw argument, because "rape happened in Medieval Europe" is not offered as an argument that it's not rape. Of course it is, and the point about its criminalizatio is well taken.

 

But the "medieval Europe" is offered by some, myself included, in response to the idea that it should not be presented on the show at all, or that it's somehow a betrayal of the text or the audience, to show it so frequently. I like rabbits. They are sweet, friendly, intelligent beings. But I understand that I'm going to sometimes see people eating animals on this show, because that is what they did. A show that starts right off with an arranged marriage, a beheaded horse, twincest, a murder, and the foreshadowing of two separate instances of marital rape, (Lyssa and Cersei) is not going to soft pedal stuff. And that was just the first episode. It has to escalate from there, and not stop.

 

Ramsey had ordered one of his men to rape Theon, so that he could "rescue" Theon from it by killing his man, and gain Theon's trust and devotion.

[phoenix780]

I don't much care whether the show is rooted in some kind of historical accuracy when it comes to the depiction of women, slavery, or anything else, really, because for me it never held itself up as that kind of show.  From my perspective it's a television show in the fantasy genre (a soap opera, albeit with good production values), so my only concern is whether or not the story being told is interesting or entertaining.  

 

The scene last night with Gilly felt cheap- is there a simpler way to separate the good characters from the bad and get much of the audience to have an emotional response than the threat of rape?  It also felt repetitive, coming after Sansa's rape the week before.  And that's why I wasn't a fan of it.  There have to be other ways to show that characters are in jeopardy and get us to root for or against them.  

 

On another note, I hope Sansa's conversation with Ramsay about bastards was her way of planting seeds so that the House of Bolton tears itself apart from the inside.  I felt like it was leading that way, suggesting that the only security for Ramsay would be if he took out his stepmother, which would likely lead to bad things for him.

[Hecate7]

I also wouldn't call Tyrion's journey an easy adventure. He's been beaten, locked up, chained, humiliated. Sure, I'd rather have his fate than Sansa's, but he's not just been enjoying a fun road trip.

 

Also, remember, not all slaves were treated the same. The great philosopher Xeno, the playwright Terence, and many less known scribes, doctors, and wise men were also slaves. This is not meant to be a duplicate of American slavery, but more the Greco-Roman variety.

[paigow]

The scene last night with Gilly felt cheap- is there a simpler way to separate the good characters from the bad and get much of the audience to have an emotional response than the threat of rape?

This helped justify why Stannis marched his family to Winterfell rather than leave them at the Wall. The majority of NW come from the Westerosi Mos Eisley.

The majority of NW are redshirts and require little character development. I am planning to cheer if any White Walkers reach Castle Black this year and kill Ser Alliser.

[madam magpie]

Also, remember, not all slaves were treated the same. The great philosopher Xeno, the playwright Terence, and many less known scribes, doctors, and wise men were also slaves. This is not meant to be a duplicate of American slavery, but more the Greco-Roman variety.

Very true.

I think it does history and literature a disservice to judge everything by what offends our sensibilities now. I'm also of the opinion that television, movies, books, etc. have a responsibility to depict ugly things if they set themselves up that way, which this show definitely has done. I don't want to be protected from what's real (or in the case of fiction, what seems real) just because it's ugly.

Personally, I hope Sansa gets her revenge on Ramsay, and I hope she does it herself. Brienne can facilitate maybe, but I hope it's Sansa who wields the sword. What's more realistic is that she'd languish in this misery until one of them died. That's not particularly satisfying storytelling, though, so I suspect (hope) we won't go there.

[Slovenly Muse]

But historical accuracy is a sketchy defense for the inclusion of sexualized violence on a fantasy show, and it's not really a defence at all for the WAY that this violence is portrayed, which is the root of the discussion. So "the way things would have been in Medieval Europe" is totally unrelated to the violence that is dramatized on this show. Mad Men is a great example of a show that portrayed the abysmal treatment of women, but never treated its women the way the male characters did. On Mad Men, horrible things happened to women, but the women's stories were told - they were written with nuance and complexity, and treated like people who lived in that time and endured that treatment, and used what little power they had to make the most of their circumstances. When a man abused a woman on Mad Men, it was HER story. On Game of Thrones, sexualized violence is not portrayed this way. Theon is a good example. The threat or act of rape, when used against a man, is monstrous. When used against a woman, it's par for the course. The women on the show are sometimes treated like props in the men's stories BY THE WRITERS, and not just by the characters. When Gilly is attacked, it's Sam's story, all about HIS reaction to it. When Shireen is threatened with being a human sacrifice, it's Stannis's story. When Sansa is raped by Ramsay, it's Ramsay and Theon's story. She's not the centre of it. Not just because she has no power herself, but because the focus has not been placed on her, but rather on the men who control her. Myrcella is basically being very politely held hostage in Dorne, and her life is in danger, but rather than seeing her shift her understanding as to her real situation and what it means, the story is all about Jaime. That's what the writers choose to focus on. And yes, there are storylines that are certainly driven by women, like Cersei, Olenna, Brienne, sometimes Dany... but this only creates the illusion of equality. The narrative balance is not equal. Women are more often written as devices to be abused and degraded to further a man's story than men are to further a woman's. That's a writing choice, a storytelling choice, and has nothing to do with historical accuracy. It is one thing for the MEN on Game of Thrones not to value the women or treat them like human beings (that's a reflection of the world they live in), but it's another thing for the 21st century writers to do so (that's a reflection of the world WE live in). Medieval Europe has nothing to do with it.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Slovenly Muse

[bobbyjoe]

GOT is not set in medieval Europe any more than Star Wars is set in ancient Japan.  They both may have allusions to past cultures, but otherwise, the choice in these entirely fantasy realms remains with the creators of the films/books/tv shows, etc.  If we were discussing Wolf Hall or something, a discussion of being strict to the mores of a certain historical time period might be relevant, but GOT, like Star Wars, has often shown it's entirely willing to pick and choose what they want and do not want from historical metaphors.  For example, a feminist Sansa who kicks Ramsay's butt out a freakin' window might not be true to medieval Europe, but you know what else isn't true to that time period?  Zombies and Dragons.

[Hecate7]

Very true.

I think it does history and literature a disservice to judge everything by what offends our sensibilities now. I'm also of the opinion that television, movies, books, etc. have a responsibility to depict ugly things if they set themselves up that way, which this show definitely has done. I don't want to be protected from what's real (or in the case of fiction, what seems real) just because it's ugly.

Personally, I hope Sansa gets her revenge on Ramsay, and I hope she does it herself. Brienne can facilitate maybe, but I hope it's Sansa who wields the sword. What's more realistic is that she'd languish in this misery until one of them died. That's not particularly satisfying storytelling, though, so I suspect (hope) we won't go there.

If Sansa does it, she'll use trickery or poison. Not a sword. There are more than enough Little Miss Badasses on the show without Sansa becoming one. There is more than one way to be a woman,

[Eliz]

pssst, Nick, in a May-December romance, the older person is December. May is when things are fresh and blooming; December is when things are shriveled and the year (=life) is almost over.

xoxo, The Department of Metaphor Deployment

[Andromeda]

Just because the plight of many women a pre 20th century European style culture is portrayed accurately does not mean that people should not object. If nothing else, it shows some social awareness and empathy for women who still live under these brutal circumstances today.

Very true. There's also a dearth of non-rapist arranged marriages on this show. So far, we've seen the noblemen who were married to a noble bride brutally force themselves on their brides without even an attempt at seduction or foreplay -- with the exception of Tyrion, who was kind enough to do the right thing and give her time to get to know him. In contrast to Drogo and Ramsey, we got Margery giving Tommen the time of his life on their wedding night. I take heart that Fat Walda seems perfectly content, so I don't think Roose is treating her the way his son treated Sansa. It's one thing for these women have to aquiesce to sex with a man they barely know or may not be attracted to -- it's quite another for that man to make it as painful as possible for their virgin brides. (Oh, and Drogo wasn't trying to be mean, he was just being a caveman, like the caveman in Quest for Fire, who followed the same character arc when it comes to sex.)

 

You said it!  She was my role model in the 60's (who am I kidding...she still is, 50 years later!!)   Mrs Peel was smart, gorgeous, and skilled -- no fluffy sidekick role for her!  Anybody not familiar with her back then, do a quick google search and check out a few old pictures.  :)

 

Seeing her and Jonathan Pryce together = gold!

I adored Emma Peel! I watched as a girl -- she was smart, sexy, capable, and gorgeous.

I got a kick out of the look in Cersei's face when Tommen said he loved Margary. Awesome acting by Lena Headey. Just minor twitches, but you could see how much it bothered her to hear that.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Andromeda

[dramachick]

If Sansa does it, she'll use trickery or poison. Not a sword. There are more than enough Little Miss Badasses on the show without Sansa becoming one. There is more than one way to be a woman,

Sansa has already started messing with Ramsey's head, and she's gotten a payoff.  When she pointed out to Ramsey that he was a bastard legitimized by another bastard, she planted one more seed of insecurity in his psycho mind. It threw him a little off balance, and she learned that Jon was Lord Commander, which is a bit of light in the darkness for her.

[madam magpie]

If Sansa does it, she'll use trickery or poison. Not a sword. There are more than enough Little Miss Badasses on the show without Sansa becoming one. There is more than one way to be a woman,

That was a euphemism, not literal. However she wields the sword is ok by me.

As for how the show treats women, this is a complaint I see a lot now when something marginalizes women or minorities for the sake of the narrative: their stories aren't being told. I just don't agree. Women (and men) have many stories. Some are triumphant, some suck. Some are limited in their perspective, some aren't. The point of feminism wasn't ever to make everything female-centric. It was to give women an equal shot at the prize, whatever that prize is. On Game of Thrones, many women have many shots at many prizes. Others don't. Many are fully realized characters. Others aren't. It's the same for the male characters.

The point of comparing the world on this show with the world of medieval Europe is to demonstrate that all kinds of circumstances can coexist within a time and place. That Game of Thrones doesn't exist in our time and place seems obvious to me, so expecting the characters or story to behave as if they do seems limiting. It seems more reasonable to compare it to something more comparable and expect that kind of behavior from the characters. The sets, costumes, language, etc. definitely evoke a lot of medieval Europe, so it makes sense to me that it would make for a common comparison.

There's also a dearth of non-rapist arranged marriages on this show.

Myrcella and what's-his-name looks like a nonrapist arranged marriage to me so far. Edited May 25, 2015 by madam magpie

[Andromeda]

On Game of Thrones, many women have many shots at many prizes. Others don't. Many are fully realized characters. Others aren't. It's the same for the male characters....

Myrcella and what's-his-name looks like a nonrapist arranged marriage to me so far.

Yay, for sure. And I hope it actually comes to pass. I doubt we'll see their wedding night, though -- we hardly know these people. It does seem pretty clear that Dorne is more enlightened when it comes to women's rights, too, so Prince what's-his-face is probably going to go about sex more like Oberyn. Lucky girl, Myrcella. No wonder she doesn't want to leave. Did anyone else have flashbacks to Sansa demanding she get to stay in KL and marry Joffrey? I don't think Myrcella is being fooled, though -- Doran is no Cersei, he has good kids.

And I totally agree with the bolded part. I understand the upset over sexual abuse being perpetrated on women, but we've seen plenty of strong female characters in this universe. Melisandre has Stannis wrapped around her finger (if she touches his daughter, I will cut a bitch). The Queen of Thorns is a schemer who took out a king. We all know about Cersei's plots and plans. Margery, too, became a player. Then there's Arya, Brienne, and of course, a huge storyline devoted to Dany, the conquering queen. These are all major POV characters. I just don't see these plots being only to further the stories of the men on the show. Margery, for instance, has been degraded, but because of another woman's scheming. And Cersei's degradation is all about Cersei, not the High Sparrow.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Andromeda

[Mz Anthrope]

RE: The scene with Aemon's body on the funeral pyre...I wondered if his body would burn.  I guess he was like Viserys - a flammable Targaryen.

My husband wondered the same...lol  Very sad to see him go.  Loved his presence. 

[Slovenly Muse]

Of course I don't believe that everything has to be female-centric, or that women should never have supporting roles in men's stories. Especially on a show like this with such a huge cast and such a variety of stories to tell. I just think that when portraying the sort of dehumanizing and brutal violence against women that our modern society is still combating, the writers have a responsibility to connect that violence with the basic humanity and personhood of the woman it happens to, or else it is only misogyny-as-entertainment, which is problematic. The writers on this show are trying, but not always succeeding to do this. They could be doing better, and with a topic important enough to powerfully affect the lives of women today, they SHOULD be doing better. They need to worry less about displaying boobs and more about displaying personhood, is what I'm saying. And I'm in favour of boobs!

Edited May 25, 2015 by Slovenly Muse

[Kbilly]

That was a pretty pathetic turn-out for the fighting pits considering those people were so pissed Dany closed them. I kept wondering if it was like fighting pit dress rehearsal.

 

The men of the Knights Watch are seriously the worst group of people ever assembled. When Alliser leaned into Sam at the funeral pyre to say that his friends are disappearing...still? You got out of latrine duty, will you never not be salty? 

 

I love Bronn's voice! Google Jerome Flynn "Unchained Melody" to see a Lanister-blonde Bronn sing. Also this is quite funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Qon-Udlhw

[Cyranetta]

 

However, I confident that Tyrion will be able to come up with a more elegant solution.

 

I admit to being fascinated in seeing future scenes with Dany and Tyrion. There was a lovely bit of acting by Dinklage when he presented himself to her as "the gift" -- he straightened up and switched into a more aristocratic vocal approach. Dany is, for all her position of power, still quite naive, and Tyrion, for all his position as prisoner/slave, is politically sophisticated, probably more so than any of her other advisors, especially as he does not (at present) have a specific goal -- he's not in love with her, although he may have a goal of getting to see dragons (which is a scene I'm eager to see).

 

I actually found this ep to be a fascinating study of various ways of finding ways to fight back when one is theoretically powerless. Tyrion uses his wit, Sam and GIlly are helped by Ghost, Sansa still has the ability to give Ramsay Bolton pinpricks of doubt (and I devoutly hope she's able to do more than that with whatever implement she palmed), Bronn has his raffish charm, and the Tyene has her own way of passing the time.