S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[Pete Martell]

Oh, I wildly disagree.

Maybe she has no good counsel right now, but she's had plenty of people around her for support overall. She grew up adored and doted on, while Dany had no one but Viserys and his abuse. But Dany DID have the smarts to ask someone to help her wrap Drogo around her finger, sexually. Sansa could have asked Shae for help there (and wouldn't that have been interesting?). Sansa has proud family lineage to spare, Kings of the North, etc. etc.

 

Sansa had love and care while she was growing up, but the lessons her parents taught their children were ultimately the wrong ones, leading to their own deaths, as well as Robb's.

 

If Sansa had stayed married to Tyrion, then I could see where, in time, a sexual relationship could have been to her benefit, and I could also see that with Baelish, in time, but Ramsay is like Joffrey in that I think he's just too twisted and too full of rage over his own insecurities to be able to see a woman as anything but body parts.

 

I had some problems with the idea in the book that Dany could "tame" Drogo through bedroom expertise, but they at least set up the wedding night as consensual so there was a platform she could build on even after he began treating her as just something to use and toss aside. 

 

In Ramsay's case I don't think that potential has ever been there. I don't think there's any decency in him.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Oscirus]

Oh, I wildly disagree.

Maybe she has no good counsel right now, but she's had plenty of people around her for support overall. She grew up adored and doted on, while Dany had no one but Viserys and his abuse. But Dany DID have the smarts to ask someone to help her wrap Drogo around her finger, sexually. Sansa could have asked Shae for help there (and wouldn't that have been interesting?). Sansa has proud family lineage to spare, Kings of the North, etc. etc.

 

So you think that Shae was going to  help Sansa seduce Tyrion?  Also, she didn't even know Shae was a prostitute so why would it occur to her to ask Shae that?

 

As for families lineage, Sansa's family has been disgraced ever since her father's head was chopped off.  She's pretty much been reduced to nothing but a name to serve as a placeholder for warden of the north. So yea, I'd say alone with little to no help.

 

That's the reason why I've grown tired of Sansa's story - the show bends over backwards to find ways to victimize her. Other than Dany, this show seems to only see women as victims, villains, or repressed figures who only show emotion in "bad-ass" action scenes.

 

I would argue that at one time or the other that Dany has fit into all three categories. It's pretty crazy that the only major women in this story to not be raped/threatened with rape is Margery and the women in Stannis's camp. I know the argument is product of time but at some point there has to be a limit.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Oscirus

[Pete Martell]

I feel like Dany has fallen prey to a lot of stereotypical, limited tropes, but I also feel like they try to write her with some shading and don't put her in a box. I no longer feel like they do that with most of the other women. Even Margaery, whom I thought was fairly complex in season 3, now seems to veer from petty, smug smirker to hapless victim.

 

The Stannis point you mention is probably one of the reasons I've always enjoyed watching Stannis' group, even if Melisandre struggles for a role beyond boobs and mystical vamping.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Haleth]

Sansa may be totally alone at the moment, but it's a good bet that Theon will try to help her.  And she has Brienne waiting outside the gates.  I think it's way too early to call her a helpless victim without agency yet again.  

[Danny Franks]

Sansa may be totally alone at the moment, but it's a good bet that Theon will try to help her.  And she has Brienne waiting outside the gates.  I think it's way too early to call her a helpless victim without agency yet again.  

 

That's... a contradiction in terms. If she needs Theon and/or Brienne to get her out of this mess, then she is helpless and without agency.

[Haleth]

I fully expect her to do some Manderlying but she'll need others to help her carry it out.

[Constantinople]

There is a new "Sansa Returns to Winterfell" video on demand. I haven't seen it yet on youtube

In it, D&D, Cogman and some other producer continuously parrot that Sansa is no longer a "victim", which is a little revolting given this episode.

 

And that is quite true to the spirit of the actual books -- that no one is invulnerable and that everyone is flawed. It's a harsh and ugly world with some vile characters running around in a strongly patriarchal society. In the books, it was Jeyne Poole who got victimized. Here it was Sansa. That is a terrible and horrible fact in both the film and literary universes. Jeyne Poole's rape and humiliation by Ramsey was horrible in the books, and Sansa's rape and humiliation is awful here.

What happened to Jeyne and Sansa is horrible, but I think passing Jeyne off as Arya and marrying her to Ramsay makes more thematic sense.

Jenyne is a phony Stark and Ramsay is a phony Bolton since his decree of legitimacy was issued by a phony Baratheon. And the Boltons are phonies themselves since they have no claim to the leadership of the North.

[DigitalCount]

I do agree that if Theon was going to act, it would have to be in response to something monstrous happening to someone else he cares for. Ramsay flayed him and cut off some of his fingers and toes, and he CASTRATED him, and Theon didn't do anything in rebellion. It had to be happening to someone else, and I suppose D&D figured it needed to be someone we care about too. But the monstrous thing happening couldn't be murder, because they certainly couldn't kill Sansa. And it couldn't merely be physical violence, because Theon's seen a girl get chased down and ripped apart by dogs.

I can see them thinking it needed to be a named character instead of fArya, because who remembered Tansy's name? (Did they mention it before this episode?) They made it Sansa not because they are interchangeable, but because they aren't--even we, who have read the books and suspected what was coming, are livid, or struck dumb with shock, or disgusted, because we were and are still invested in Sansa.

At the same time, that presupposes that this story needs Theon to be the driving force. Would it have been more controversial if Ramsay had suddenly become toothless? As it is he's already treating her better than his book counterpart treated Jeyne, and much better than he treated Theon, show or book. Could Sansa have rescued Theon? Maybe, although that stretches credulity. Still, with a Brienne assist it may have been possible, but that's a completely different story for every character involved and only whitewashes Ramsay as a result. And the Boltons are the villains who barely pretend to be human.

I did like Sansa telling off Myranda though, it was a win she sorely needed in this episode of loss. It was hard to watch the end, but it's not as if any of Ramsay's other proclivities would have been easier.

I don't normally notice acting slips, but when I read that IR wasn't looking forward to doing this scene, I wasn't surprised. His face looked more like a mask than an actual expression, something was just mildly off. Maybe it was a choice to show how depraved he is, I don't know, but it came off to me as the actor going away inside. The actor was great otherwise as usual, but there was something there about his eyes and smile that seemed played up.

Snakes, meh.

KL, sensible. Oh Cersei, way to overplay your hand.

Braavos, good.

[lovetowrite73]

If Sansa brings LF down, I will forgive her for every irritating moment she has been on my screen until now.  Also, I hope they don't have her get pregnant from this.

 

THIS!! That's one of the thoughts that crossed my mind. Please don't have her bear an heir from this BS!

[Arnella]

I totally forgot about Brienne.  I was thinking the whole episode about how alone Sansa is with not even an ex-prostitute for a maid anymore.  I hope Brienne and Sansa get together soon.

[Pete Martell]

I really wish I was more invested in Brienne than I am because I want to be into the idea of a woman saving Sansa or killing Ramsay, but she's written as such a caricature these last few seasons, very flat. This story has been too dark to end in some type of BAMF swordfighting scene or bizarre wrestling match like what happened with The Hound.

[ElizaD]

These gifs are the perfect summary of Dorne. I would never have expected Areo to be my #2 favorite after Doran, but at least he hasn't yet had a chance to look like an idiot.

[DigitalCount]

Has he even been named on screen? I wanted to refer to him, but they have only made reference to his axe as far as I know.

[kcbuckeye2]

I was surprised to see Mr Eko and the pirates. (Lol, spell check capitalized pirates as if I were talking about a band.) I figured Jorah's and Tyrion's journey to see Dany was going to be expedited to ignore anything that happened in the book. I guess we need to see someone in the fighting pit that we care about when the dragon comes back.

While I loved Lost, Mr. Eko will always be Adibisi from Oz for me.  I keep waiting for him to show up with that beanie hat just barely hanging on to the back of his head.

[MadMouse]

I really wish I was more invested in Brienne than I am because I want to be into the idea of a woman saving Sansa or killing Ramsay, but she's written as such a caricature these last few seasons, very flat. This story has been too dark to end in some type of BAMF swordfighting scene or bizarre wrestling match like what happened with The Hound.

 

That's because they cut out every moment of character building she's had since being rescued by Jaime. I know that some people found her and Jaime's travels boring but that was some of the best character development and world building Martin has written. And I know most of it would be hard to translate to TV but it has neutered both her and Jaime significantly as characters. 

[Constantinople]

Has he even been named on screen? I wanted to refer to him, but they have only made reference to his axe as far as I know.

 

I don't think so.  Doran addressed Areo as Captain, but that's been it so far.

[portfino]

I'm having a problem with the decision to age up Tommen in this episode. Regardless of how weak he is, he would have been raised his entire life as royalty and is the ruler of a continent. Now some unwashed barefoot guy who he's never met before is arresting his wife, and he sits in silence. That's just not believable. If he were his age from the books, this would be more realistic.

[Calamity Jane]

Hmmmmm - thinking about Margaery and Loras, that was not their trial, yet, right?  Sort of a pre-trial hearing to see if there was enough evidence to proceed with a trial?  So, I'm wondering if they will have been able to come up with any of the very plausible stories I've seen above, by the time of the trial.  Maybe some people, ahem, Cersei, even the High Sparrow, will have re-thought positions by then, with a little help from Olenna/Littlefinger?  Well, I can hope that, historical and show precedents aside, there might actually be one trial where people are not pronounced guilty, even if this time they totally are.  I guess.  Are they breaking actual laws?  Or just FM laws?  Is it a secular or a religious court, and is there any difference?  

[Calamity Jane]

I'm having a problem with the decision to age up Tommen in this episode. Regardless of how weak he is, he would have been raised his entire life as royalty and is the ruler of a continent. Now some unwashed barefoot guy who he's never met before is arresting his wife, and he sits in silence. That's just not believable. If he were his age from the books, this would be more realistic.

Well, the heir is always raised that way, but is the spare?  I can recall a few episodes from English history (Henry VIII, George VI) where the second in line suddenly had to assume the throne and floundered for a good bit before finding their footing.  Tommen hasn't been king very long, he's still pretty young, his decisions have been pretty much controlled by his dominating mother since he began his stint, and his marriage is recent. Of all the things that bug me in this tale, this hasn't been one of them.  He seemed so horrified by the charges against Loras and Margaery that I wasn't surprised he failed to intervene at that moment.  Let's see what a little time without his favorite pastime does for his thinking. I do agree that if Tommen doesn't find his voice as king fairly soon, however, it will begin to feel contrived.

[trif]

 

Sansa may be totally alone at the moment, but it's a good bet that Theon will try to help her.  And she has Brienne waiting outside the gates.  I think it's way too early to call her a helpless victim without agency yet again. 

 

 

That's... a contradiction in terms. If she needs Theon and/or Brienne to get her out of this mess, then she is helpless and without agency.

 

 

For me it is more important how Sansa gets help than whether she gets help, because it is obvious she is not going to Xena her way out of this one, nor is she going to go kamikaze with no exit strategy and only luck to rescue her (at least I hope not). One of the reasons I like the Sansa storyline is that it displays the power of social networks as a positive thing (I think this is part of the appeal of the Manderly revenge plot too). This is a more realistic and thus more satisfying form of agency for the Sansa storyline, IMO.

 

Therefore I want Sansa to take a calculated risk to trust Brienne and/or Theon by making a smart assessment of her situation and their character. I also hope she is part of executing the revenge/escape plan, but I don't think it's necessary, or satisfying, that Sansa escapes by becoming a mastermind manipulator. Some manipulation through emotional intelligence, great. Littlefinger-esque dinner theater plotting, yawn.

[MrWhyt]

 

Therefore I want Sansa to take a calculated risk to trust Brienne and/or Theon by making a smart assessment of her situation and their character

I hope that when Sansa does meet Brienne and Brienne wants to take her from Winterfell her response is along the lines of "This is my home, forget "rescuing" me, kill the fucking Boltons",

[Bats27]

That would be awesome, if they didn't feel the need to resort to the tired and vile "rape is empowerment" trope.  Sansa had PLENTY of other reasons to do this already, and she's suffered PLENTY already to cause this change.  What being repeatedly beaten, torture, degraded/humiliated for months/years, seeing her father killed, having her mother/brother/significant chunk of her family killed or scattered to the winds, having the vile Bolton's control her home, being under the sway of a creeper like LF, being attacked by her crazy aunt/cousin, and having said crazy aunt killed right in front of her, etc.  All that wasn't enough, we had to add a rape unto the pile as well, seriously writers?

[portfino]

 

Well, the heir is always raised that way, but is the spare?  I can recall a few episodes from English history (Henry VIII, George VI) where the second in line suddenly had to assume the throne and floundered for a good bit before finding their footing

Henry VIII executed his father's advisors upon becoming King. George VI understood he was a figurehead. In Westeros, Aegon the Unlikely knew what to do as King (and he was much further back in the pack than Tommen). There is no doubt that Tommen would be wobbly or even erratic or dependent on advice. I just don't buy he'd be catering to a person who refused to meet with him. He would certainly have been educated on who were the important people in the realm and this guy isn't one of them.

[Statman]

Figured we all needed a laugh and we can all agree the Dorne stuff is horrible.

I have seen action scenes on amateur YouTube videos that look better than this.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Statman

[BlackberryJam]

Oh I saw those. It's like bad color guard and dance routines. Even hot Nikolaj can't save it.

[Saje]

That really is pitiful, and not nearly up to this show's usual skirmish standards. Hell, Arya's a better fighter than The Sand Snakes™ (eyeroll), and all she does is stick 'em with the pointy end. 

[MrWhyt]

That would be awesome, if they didn't feel the need to resort to the tired and vile "rape is empowerment" trope. 

Rape isn't empowerment, and that is not what this is. Sansa is empowered because she's home, where she has allies. She had no one in King's Landing and her only ally in The Vale was Littlefinger and Littlefinger is nobody's friend. She's finally in a place where she can do something to get out of her role as a pawn.

[taanja]

URGH. I was so hoping Sansa would be able to play Ramsey, so at least the wedding night would be easier for her. It was so simple to write it to that too. When Ramsey all blah blah honesty Sansa should have chimed in, "Well if we're being honest, your little friend Myranda came to me today. She told me you did XYZ. I think she was trying to scare me."

 

"So you didn't believe her?"

 

"I believed every word. It just didn't scare me. " Then she could have spun a story about everything she went through in King's Landing and lied that she was the one who killed Joffrey and deliberately framed Tyrion for it.

 

She could still have had the revelation that she needed to GTFO without the wedding night being so traumatic.

Nope. Sorry. The Sansa I have come to know is like the chick in a scary movie that goes down into the dark basement (and gets herself killed)

Edited May 19, 2015 by taanja

[Notwisconsin]

I know this is going to seen insensative, but there was NO rape. IT was perverse it was was abusive, but it was consensual. It was one of those "close your eyes and think of England" things. We saw her say "yes" at the wedding. Westros, and the planet it's on, is a barbaric place, and one can claim that King Robert raped Cerci once a week for years.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Notwisconsin

[Avaleigh]

I know this is going to seen insensative, but there was NO rape. IT was perverse it was was abusive, but it was consensual. It was one of those "close your eyes and think of England" things. We saw her say "yes" at the wedding. Westros, and the planet it's on, is a barbaric place, and one can claim that King Robert raped Cerci once a week for years.

I think Sophie Turner's interview in Entertainment Weekly made it clear that Sansa didn't know exactly what she'd be in for in terms of the brutality, so I think if she'd known then she would have refused when LF made it seem like she had the choice. (I don't think he would have accepted it if she hadn't wanted to go since she did initially try to refuse anyway.) In the interview ST makes it seem like Sansa is most frightened of Roose prior to the marriage. With Ramsay, she knew he wasn't a nice guy but she didn't know that he was a full blown monster. Seeing what happened to Theon wasn't an indicator for her IMO because she (understandably) feels that Theon had it coming. I think that if she'd thought that she could refrain from having Ramsay touch her then I'm positive that she would have taken that option. She was not in possession of all of the facts in my opinion. Even when Myranda "warns" Sansa about Ramsay, Sansa rightly deduces that Myranda loves Ramsay and I think part of her hoped that Ramsay wouldn't be completely horrible if there is an example right in front of her where someone around her age thinks he's great and is jealous that she isn't in Sansa's position. Insensitive, unsympathetic, rude, presumptuous--I'm sure that Sansa thought Ramsay would be all of these things, but I don't think she necessarily thought he'd be cruel and abusive and certainly not worse than Joffrey. Obviously she was mistaken.

 

Robert did rape Cersei in the books, multiple times. What's more IMO Robert knows that he did and that's why he was ashamed of himself. Robert beat Cersei on more than one occasion and forced her to have sex with him even when she made it clear that she didn't want to. When she'd complain to him about how he'd hurt her he'd pretend that he didn't remember so to me that indicates that he knew he was doing something wrong. 

 

Tyrion understood that it wouldn't be right to consummate his marriage with Sansa even though he was within his rights to do so. Just because men are permitted to get away with marital rape in Westeros doesn't mean that the rape isn't still happening IMO. 

[Dandesun]

Consensual is a rather tricky word to use here. Sansa consented to the marriage and, ultimately, to being bedded but what may have started out as a consensual situation clearly shifted into one of rape. This is NOT a close your eyes and think of England moment when the woman is screaming -- and those were not orgasmic screams, either.

 

What it comes down to is this: GoT has used the 'shock' of rape too many times. If they want to portray the Ramsay/Sansa scenes as what they are: rape on the marital night -- then maybe they should have shown some restraint in other instances (Dany/Drogo; Jaime/Cersei; the entire Craster's Keep nightmare where the multiple rapes going on were incidental background to villain monologues) in order to keep it as a shocking, horrible thing and not have the audience go 'This shit AGAIN?!'

 

Things weren't going to go well for Sansa. We all knew that Ramsay was a psycho and we all knew she had little to fight against him if he decided to go forward with what ever he wanted but because they've trotted this trope out so many times it ceases to be about story and becomes more about 'what the fuck is WITH these show runners?!' We all know Westeros sucks. We've got the heads on spikes, hands cut off, wedding slaughters and bloody everything to prove it... but rape is a hot button issue anyway and they put MORE in when they never had to. It's not a surprise when people start going 'Fuck these guys... enough is enough.'

 

And enough has happened to Sansa in the course of these shows for that to already inspire her to get her shit together... did we need a screaming rape scene so that THEON could be a sad panda to further that?

 

I mean... fuck!!

[MrWhyt]

What it comes down to is this: GoT has used the 'shock' of rape too many times. If they want to portray the Ramsay/Sansa scenes as what they are: rape on the marital night -- then maybe they should have shown some restraint in other instances (Dany/Drogo; Jaime/Cersei; the entire Craster's Keep nightmare where the multiple rapes going on were incidental background to villain monologues) in order to keep it as a shocking, horrible thing and not have the audience go 'This shit AGAIN?!'

If the audience is desensitized to rape then maybe the audience should take a look at itself before pointing fingers at the media they're consuming.

Edited May 20, 2015 by MrWhyt

[Dandesun]

I think the fact that people are so upset by this proves that they are not desensitized to rape. It's more a question of 'why do the showrunners keep going to that well?'

 

I really wanted this to go a different way for Sansa but I knew it wouldn't because I know the story with Jeyne Poole and what that amounts to. I hate that it happened to Sansa but this is legitimately part of that particular story and it's one that I hope they are using to really kick off 'The North Remembers' retaliation and such. What happened to Sansa is no less horrifying because they've played the rape card so often before. It's that they play the rape card so often that's horrifying in and of itself.

[nksarmi]

I know this is going to seen insensative, but there was NO rape. IT was perverse it was was abusive, but it was consensual. It was one of those "close your eyes and think of England" things. We saw her say "yes" at the wedding. Westros, and the planet it's on, is a barbaric place, and one can claim that King Robert raped Cerci once a week for years.

I struggle with this because technically Sansa did comply.  But to me the difference is that we - at least - know that Sansa can't really say no right now.  She could say no to Tyrion, Cersei could turn down Robert, etc.... But if a woman can't say no - if she has no choice - she can't really consent, can she?

[Amtosbm]

At the risk of sounding insensitive I was fully preparing myself for something more horrific at that end of the episode so I am glad we only saw Theon's face and not Sansa's. I was relieved they didn't go there cause I am still haunted by the seemingly nonchalance shown of the rapes at Crasters.

 

 

I hate what happened to Sansa but...She is mentally tough. I see her rising. Fighting back not physically like Arya but through plotting. She won't crumble.

I think she will too eventually. Sansa has always struck me as someone who lives in partly a fantasy world hence all the time spent by herself in her room no doubt thinking. Arya has also said as much, so I think she was preparing for it but now many more illusions are shattered. I liked that she hesitated before saying she accepted. It meant she really was steeling herself for it. And the smile on Ramsay's face when she did said it gave me the willies. She was also steeling herself in the room. She didn't flip out when he told Reek to stay or tore her dress. I have no doubt that pissed him off.  In many ways she reminds me more of Ned than Catelyn.

 

 

I think Sansa is much tougher now. She saw her Aunt Lysa die. She tolerates Littlefinger. There was no way for her to charm Ramsey. He is a beast she must survive. Much like Dany she is a hunted woman trying to survive via a marriage. Unlike Dany she married a horrible person. I hate the rape but it was inevitable when Sansa chose to marry him.

I also have no problem with her not trying to manipulate him. Anything she would have said he would have shifted around to suit his own purposes. He likes hurting people and he had already made up his mind to hurt her. Hence his asking all the virgin questions and the deliberate lack of foreplay beyond that pathetic kiss. He is a severly disturbed man. I cannot wait till someone takes him down and I would love it to be Sansa. He would never see that coming. I just have to give kudos to all the actors, they were all great. Its nice to hear they seem to like working together.

 

I agree with all of you who said Dorne sucks. Its too bad because the long plan they had going was one of the pleasant surprises in the book. I really wish we had Jamie in the Riverlands instead.

 

I will be heartbroken if Bronn is really poisoned and ends up off the show. I still miss the adventures of Arya and the Hound and I hated him in the book. Which leaves me with - I love that Arya was called out on caring about him. I think him taking on Polliver's crew cemented that.

 

I am so glad witty Tyrion is back. I miss his Hand of the King days. I am hoping he will soon be Dany's Hand!

Edited May 19, 2015 by Amtosbm

[SilverShadow]

Nope. Sorry. The Sansa I have come to know is like the chick in a scary movie that goes down into the dark basement (and gets

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO the Sansa we saw at the end of the last season and early this season, who was able to emotionally manipulate the Lords of the Vale and was learning from Littlefinger's playbook, and in this episode smacked down Ramsey's girlfriend had grown beyond being a helpless damsel, and I'm upset the writers brought her back to that place when they could have spun her story so many other, more interesting ways.

Edited May 20, 2015 by SilverShadow

[Dandesun]

I agree with all of you who said Dorne sucks. Its too bad because the long plan they had going was one of the pleasant surprises in the book. I really wish we had Jamie in the Riverlands instead.

 

I'm so disappointed in Dorne so far. It just makes me sad. Maybe things will pick up now that Jaime's in custody and going to see Doran... I don't know. I mean, given that they sent Jaime there at all rather than off to the Riverlands I was really interested in what they were going to do.

 

So far... very uninspiring.

[Ambrosefolly]

The only good I can see coming from this whole Ramsay fiasco is that Sansa mentally flips on Littlefinger. While Sansa never had any illusions that he was a stand up guy, she believed he was somewhat protective of her, hopefully she now realizes she was only a few levels higher than the whores in his brothels, but given less agency. He played on her desire to seek revenge on the people that killed her brother and mother, even though she reasonably didn't want to go and she let herself get taken in by it. 

[benteen]

I'm so disappointed in Dorne so far. It just makes me sad. Maybe things will pick up now that Jaime's in custody and going to see Doran... I don't know. I mean, given that they sent Jaime there at all rather than off to the Riverlands I was really interested in what they were going to do.

 

So far... very uninspiring.

 

I wish we had gotten Jaime in the Riverlands.  I liked that story a lot and what it did for Jaime's character.  But D and D have often struggled with Jaime and at one time viewed him as "a monster who loves killing."  They love to keep showing him as a monster while whitewashing Tyrion at the same time.

[dr pepper]

I didn't think that scene was that bad, considering what else we've seen of this show. They could have ended at "Reek, stay and watch". then forward to the next day, with Sansa huddled in bed and Ramsey mock-comforting her before going off to his daily rounds of torment. But then the viewers would be arguing about what actually happened.

Edited May 20, 2015 by dr pepper

[J----av]

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO the Sansa we saw at the end of the last season and early this season, who was able to emotionally manipulate the Lords of the Vale and was learning from Littlefinger's playbook, and in this episode smacked down Ramsey's girlfriend had grown beyond being a helpless damsel, and I'm upset the writers brought her back to that place when they could have spun her story so many other, more interesting ways.

The Lords Of The Vale and Ramsay's girlfriend are not Ramsay. Sansa "playing" Ramsay was never a story the viewers would buy

[Pogojoco]

There is a new "Sansa Returns to Winterfell" video on demand. I haven't seen it yet on youtube

In it, D&D, Cogman and some other producer continuously parrot that Sansa is no longer a "victim", which is a little revolting given this episode.

 

What happened to Jeyne and Sansa is horrible, but I think passing Jeyne off as Arya and marrying her to Ramsay makes more thematic sense.

Jenyne is a phony Stark and Ramsay is a phony Bolton since his decree of legitimacy was issued by a phony Baratheon. And the Boltons are phonies themselves since they have no claim to the leadership of the North.

And in the book, Fake Arya illustrates just how tenuous the hold the Boltons have on the North and by extension, the Lannisters (as it was Cersei who conspired with Littlefinger to create a Fake Arya) have on a major part of the Seven Kingdoms. And yes, a Fake Stark for a Fake Bolton (legitimized by a Fake Baratheon.)

 

 

The book also has Cersei sending out assassins to various places because she`s so paranoid (including discussion of one at the Wall for Jon Snow.) Given that in the show she knows Sansa is alive and back at Winterfell, I`m guessing Cersei isn`t doing that. 

 

And yes, Dorne is terrible. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Pogojoco

[SilverShadow]

The Lords Of The Vale and Ramsay's girlfriend are not Ramsay. Sansa "playing" Ramsay was never a story the viewers would buy

 

Not long term. But maybe enough to throw him off balance enough to make the wedding night less horrific.

 

But there were other ways to work around it, if the writers had wanted to. For example, have Roose warn Ramsey not to do anything stupid, like so:

 

Roose: Remember, treat the Stark girl gently. She's not one of your pets. Misuse her and you might well incite the entire North in open rebellion at the time we can least afford it.  *super serious eye contact.* Don't disappoint me, Ramsey.

 

This was something the writers actively chose to invent for the show. They wanted to include Sansa being raped as a plot point so they aligned events to make it happen. They could just as easily have done otherwise if that was the course they wanted to take. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by SilverShadow

[Hecate7]

There is a new "Sansa Returns to Winterfell" video on demand. I haven't seen it yet on youtube

In it, D&D, Cogman and some other producer continuously parrot that Sansa is no longer a "victim", which is a little revolting given this episode.

 

What happened to Jeyne and Sansa is horrible, but I think passing Jeyne off as Arya and marrying her to Ramsay makes more thematic sense.

Jenyne is a phony Stark and Ramsay is a phony Bolton since his decree of legitimacy was issued by a phony Baratheon. And the Boltons are phonies themselves since they have no claim to the leadership of the North.

 

That's an interesting take on it. I think Sansa works better, frankly. I don't think they could trust a TV audience to know who Jeyne Poole was, at this point.

 

If the audience is desensitized to rape then maybe the audience should take a look at itself before pointing fingers at the media they're consuming.

 

 

So much this. And to the poster who complained that the women are either victims, villainesses, or bad-asses who can't show emotion, aren't the men that way, too? Hizdar, Theon, Tyrion, Tommen, and Loras: victims. Jorah, Jaime, Bronn, faceless guy: bad-asses who can't show emotion. Ramsey, Roose, Littlefinger, Walder Frey, Tywin, Joffrey: villains.

 

I think the real issue is that bad things can happen to men, and we don't define them as victims. We didn't say, "Oh, Bran's a tiresome little victim." We said, "Jaime pushed a KID out a window!" As Bran continued to be crippled we still didn't define him as a victim. He was a guy with his own story who had been victimized. As Tyrion was bullied, terrorized, threatened, abused, cut, accused,  imprisoned, and now sold into slavery, we never once said, "Ugh--there's Tyrion being a victim again." We said, "wow Lyssa's crazy. Cat's kind of dumb. Cersei's awful. Tywin's a fiend. Slavery is wrong!" (All of which is accurate). When a man is victimized, he's a man being victimized, not "a victim."

 

Bad things happen to these characters. They get raped, lose limbs, get disfigured. They have bad things happen to them, including rape. Considering that 1 in 4 women is raped even in our enlightened world where rape is wrong and men know it, we really should be astonished when a woman is NOT raped in this ancient world of droit de seigneur, arranged marriages, and women as chattel and spoils of war. That Sansa was raped does not make her weak, or stupid, and I feel that calling her a victim implies those things. She is doing what she has to do, to live to fight another day, just as Jaime Lannister did when he sat in his own s*** for a year.

[Constantinople]

I don't believe that Sansa should be immunized from harm, but I feel that writing a storyline in which Ramsay raped Sansa is gratuitous for a couple of reasons.

 

The other main characters -- perhaps by that, I mean POV characters, I'm not sure -- are, if not growing, at least changing or facing new challenges.

• Daenerys, Jon and Cersei are learning what it means to rule
• Tyrion is finally coming to terms with the idea that the family shouldn't be the basis for everything
• Arya is struggling with identity issues (interesting that she doesn't realize she's lying when she says she hates The Hound)
• Jaime is pretty much propping up the Dorne storyline this season, but in the last 2 seasons he's been trying to figure out what he believes in and what life he wants to lead.

But Sansa is, as I believe SeanC described her, Season 2 Sansa again, now with more rape.

 

The other reason I feel Ramsay's rape of Sansa is gratuitous is that it flows from Littlefinger's decision to change his life's motto from "Knowlege is Power" to "Ignorance is Bliss" for it to happen.  So the Rape of Sansa doesn't feel "organic" in the sense that it doesn't result from plausible character behavior.

[dr pepper]

Agree on the Sand Snakes being disappointing. They were supposed to be dangerous, but they were wusses. Also in my picture of them, they were nearly twice the size as on the show.

[Bannon]

If you are going to have a show which is heavily invested in the poltics of feudal and pre-feudal societies, in whch rulers employ arranged marriages to pursue political and territorial ambitions, then rape is going to be a recurring phenomena among the major characters, if the writing endeavors to portray human beings as they actually are. I really think that one of the reasons why Sansa' s rape has provoked such a backlash, beside it being intrinsically horrific, is the way rape has been previously employed by the writers. Jaime's rape of Cersei was just crappy storytelling, especially given how Jaime's character had been developed from the beginning of the show. It just didn't make any sense. Drogo's rape of Dany was shot pornographically, what with the cinematic backdrop and disrobing of the rape victim. After those two hideous missteps, the writers really have used up any charitable impulses the audience may have with regard to the employment of Sansa' s rape to advance the story, even though this instance was more organic, or not protrayed in as an obviously prurient manner.

 

 

The writing can still recover (in Winterfell; Dorne really does seem to be consigned to being a bad Charlie's Angels episode) if they, RIGHT NOW, start showing that Sansa is determined to master her political and personal fate, and is going to use her physical victimization to exploit an opporutnity to slit the throats that need slittin', as Al Swearingen would  put it.

 

 Actually, that wouldn't be a bad character to model Sansa after, now that I think about it. For those who watched that great show, do you recall how Al, embroiled n his conflict with Hearst, to the point of losing a digit, gave a soliloquy that recalled his (perhaps sexual) abuse as boy in a Chicago orphanage? The pain (as portrayed by the great Ian McShane) was striking, but the

resolve it fired in him to never be outruthlessed again was striking as well. That's the only way to salvage this show, perched on the edge of steep slope.

 

Finally, it really is stupid storytelling to have Littlefinger, Master Gatherer of Intelligence, be unaware of the nature of the bastard son of Roose Bolton, after the bastard son has been assigned many important military tasks, accomplished with massive cruelty, over an extended period of time.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Bannon

[Hecate7]

The North wouldn't rise up in open rebellion over marital rape. Abduction, yes. Marital rape, no.

 

And I don't think Littlefinger is ignorant of Ramsey's nature. I think that's just a story he told Sansa, and Ramsey, in order to have plausible deniability later, should things go really wrong. I don't think he's as enamored of Sansa as we've been led to believe. "Your sister," was beautifully timed for Sansa to hear and take the same way the audience did--that leering Littlefinger was seeing Cat all over again in Sansa, and falling in love all over again.

 

But maybe he isn't. Maybe he sees Sansa as a resource. Yes, she looks like her mother. But the emotion that inspires in Baelish might not be love. He's very good at convincing women he loves them. Lyssa believed him right up until he pushed her.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Hecate7

[Constantinople]

The writing can still recover (in Winterfell; Dorne really does seem to be consigned to being a bad Charlie's Angels episode

Now that you mention it, I wish that Ellaria had called Charlie and we had Kelly, Kris and Sabrina instead of the Sand Snakes.

[FemmyV]

 

The North wouldn't rise up in open rebellion over marital rape. Abduction, yes. Marital rape, no.

 

I don't think it will be a question of whether the North will rise, as much as Who will they rise against, Who's leading, and When. If Stannis is victorious, no need to rise against the Boltons, but they can be brought to march against Cersei and maybe the Freys; though they're now insignificant, there's a matter of justice. If Jon Snow leaves the Nightwatch, who knows?

 

 

And I don't think Littlefinger is ignorant of Ramsey's nature. I think that's just a story he told Sansa, and Ramsey, in order to have plausible deniability later, should things go really wrong. I don't think he's as enamored of Sansa as we've been led to believe.

 

I'm sure he's enamored of Sansa as long as he believes she's the key to getting everything he wants, and, at this point, I wouldn't put it past Baelish to have his eye on the Iron Throne. He's got the Vale, and once Sansa is Ramsey's widow, she'll hold the North. Cersei won't know what hit her, in his mind. D & D can't be putting so much emphasis on Sansa if they never intend for her to start piecing shit together, starting with Jon Arryn. They just. Can't.