S02.E19: The Dirty Half Dozen

[sinkwriter]

 

Ward being disappointed in Gemma.

 

I wish someone in the team meeting had punched him right in the face. He's "disappointed" in Gemma? How the hell does he think she got to the emotional place where she is today? Grant and his actions were a gigantic part of it, betraying the team and almost killing Emma and ultimately hurting Fitz the way he did. His violence and corruption and lies lies lies helped Gemma become disillusioned, angry and distrusting. He gets no say in her behavior now. He broke everyone.

 

Honestly, I don't believe a word he says. I'm sure on some warped level he had "good times" with the rest of the team and chooses to selectively remember those times and discard the rest. But back then, when he was having those "good times" with the team, he was lying through his teeth. His seemingly benign and caring behavior was bullshit because the entire time he was plotting to do them all harm and destroy everything and everyone close to them. So I don't buy his "caring" behavior now. He's just as much of a liar as he was then, and he could turn on them all in an instant once again, if it suited his needs. He has no real love or understanding of human caring.

 

 

I love Raina everything. Couldn't stop laughing at how quickly she went from broken to probably planning a coup. Also I really like that her hoodie has flowers on it.

 

Her hoodie had flowers on it? I missed that detail. That's awesome.

[Tim Thomason]

 

All sorts of reasons, the biggest being expectations others might have about your progress. "How was your last session? Any big revelations? Have they put you on any meds? You skipped a week? Why? You're going back, right?" And even if others are cooler than that, there's the problem of putting more expectations on yourself once you've let others know, feeling that you owe them progress. Therapy is a very private issue, and sometimes people need to do it in secret. If Coulson felt more comfortable seeing someone without other's eyes on him, more power to him.

And May is his closest confidante, his partner for years, and his mentor throughout the ordeal of his alien city obsession. He might have been keeping her in the dark about his therapy because he didn't want to ruin that relationship. He wanted to convince himself, as well as May, that he was the perfectly fine, witty, self-assured Director of SHIELD with no moments of doubt or confusion, at all.

 

That said, I think it'd be good storytelling (albeit manipulative and relationship-destroying) if Coulson was lying to May to get her off his case. Maybe he does have some use with Andrew in an upcoming Inhumans War. But the information is compartmentalized, and May does not need to know. So to salvage his relationship and get her to step back, he told her he was the one seeking therapy. 

[xqueenfrostine]

This isn't about generic "others," this is about May.  Who is already monitoring his behavior and his state of mind at his specific request.  He assigned May oversight of a particular area, and then withheld pertinent information.

 

I had almost forgotten that Coulson had given May the orders to take him out if he started showing signs of becoming unstable.  In that light, I agree that Coulson was obligated to share with her whatever he was doing or felt he needed to do to cope with the influence that the GH-325 serum was having on his mental state.  If he had been seeing a therapist  to deal with the stress of becoming the director or dealing with anxiety over the discovery that he had actually died and come back to life, then no, I don't think May would have been entitled to know that he was seeing Andrew.  But if it was about the alien writing, then May deserved full disclosure given what he asked her to do.

 

That said, I actually don't believe that his trips to see Andrew were for personal psychiatrist counselling.  I think it's something else.  Coulson showed this episode that he's been hiding a lot of his true motives and activities both from May and from us as an audience, and he kept deceiving us about what he was up to even after his confrontation.  Which means I don't really feel like I can take much of anything that he said at face value.  The story about seeing Andrew because of the stress he was experiencing due to compulsion to carve might have just been a story he thought May would be the most sympathetic to and thus less likely to question.

[tennisgurl]

Damn, Gemma is not here for screwing around purposes! She really meant it when she said she would kill Ward next time she saw him. I probably shouldn't have been so happy about that, but I was. 

 

Ward honestly seems to live in his own fantasy world. He imagines himself as a basically good guy who made a few minor mistakes, that were basically comparable to what anyone has made. He is a poor, abused child who became a cool, anti-hero type who will eventually make sure everyone forgives him. Why wouldn't they? He didn't do anything REALLY bad right? They aren't really THAT upset with him?

 

When in reality, everyone hates him, and he is a murdering bastard. I loved when he was giving his weird little speech, and everyone was just glaring at him. Like, if looks could kill, Ward would be cut into a thousand tiny pieces. 

 

I kind of hope Mike and Lincoln have a few more scenes together. I liked their interactions. Plus, Lincoln seems to be by far the least shady inhuman, so I`ll be glad to see more of him. 

 

There was something so funny about how one of the scientists was talking on the phone, and was just nonchalantly all "hail Hydra" when he hung up. Like, in Hydra, that's just how to answer and put down the phone. Anything else would just be rude!

[Malbec]

On a similar note, I'm kind of disappointed that the concerns about Coulson and the "trust no one" style of SHIELD leadership are all being swept under the rug. Before long, all the "good" SHIELD agents will fall into line, and the "bad" doubters of Olmos SHIELD will be revealed to be evil in all their xenophobic, let's experiment on Inhumans glory. It annoys me because I like when there's conflict on a show and shades of grey, and I was hoping that this Olmos SHIELD storyline would be used to re-examine Coulson's SHIELD. I do like Coulson, but should we just take at face value that Coulson always has to lie to keep everyone else in line? For example, he tricked Simmons into working on new hardware for Mike Peterson. Why bother lying about that? Simmons likes and trusts Mike. He just now lied to May about trying to find the scepter. Again, why? We don't have any reason for her to say "wow Coulson, I think Hydra should keep control of a magical weapon able to control minds." He may have the right to keep these kinds of secrets as director of SHIELD, but frankly it doesn't totally make sense why he is.

 

I agree completely. I don't particularly agree with the SHIELD-as-democracy thing, but Olmos!SHIELD isn't completely wrong in their desire for more transparency.  The flashbacks to when SHIELD fell were some nice background on their motivations, and it was a good glimpse of how Fury's mistakes actually really kind of fucked some people over.  I like Fury, I think he was doing what he thought was best, but I also like the moral complexity that Olmos!SHIELD had the potential to represent.

 

But... instead the narrative's just kind of treated Olmos!SHIELD like a bunch of one-dimensional bigots.  It's annoying because it seems like Coulson!SHIELD just sort of wins by default.  It's a waste of EJO if you ask me, along with Mack and to a lesser extent Bobbi's characterization.  

[mac123x]

I thought the Ultron setups were kind of shoe-horned in, but I liked some of the show-setups.  Cal blurting out the secret of Skye's parentage in front of a crowd (that obviously flinched at the revelation), Cal telling Jiaying to be careful of Raina, Raina confronting Jiaying:  obvious foreshadowing of a faction fight amongst the Inhumans.  Sort of parallel to the Couson and Gonzalez factions within Shield.

 

I'm curious as to what's in Gonzalez's cargo hold.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm curious as to what's in Gonzalez's cargo hold.

 

Please let it be Cylons, because that ties in so well with the robots in Age of Ultron. Would love to see Captain America killing toasters.  And that aircraft carrier is really named 'Galactica'.

[ahisma]

I'm disappointed in Jemma, that she would try to cold-bloodedly murder Ward in the middle of a mission that Coulson picked Ward to contribute to. One, it's a mission—focus on the plan. Two, it's cold-blooded murder for revenge. That's different from your job being to kill bad guys and protect innocents. I'm sad to see Jemma acting on it.

I'm also disappointed that Coulson never made more of an effort to rescue and deprogram Agent 33. Bobbi could have advocated more for her, too. Coulson obviously would go to the ends of the earth to rescue and rehabilitate agents—it's been a glaring plot hole that 33 never got that consideration. So it took Ward to talk him into it, finally.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE SAME FEELINGS AS WARD, SHOW! Yuck!

I did think the team meeting was hilarious, and I laughed out loud when Skye called Ward Candyman—it was creepy the way he just showed up in the doorway after his name was mentioned!

SkyeMommy is getting even shadier. She said before that banishment wasn't the worst thing she could have done to SkyeDaddy, so when she said she was wasn't going to send him away again, it did sound a bit like option 2 was on the table. It would be hilarious if she tried to kill him and Raina foretold it. Little Sonic is definitely fomenting a rebellion.

Gonzalez's bigotry is going over the top. I hope it drives Bobbi and Mac back to Team Coulson even faster.

I'm going to Ultron tonight! Can't wait!

Edited April 30, 2015 by ahisma

[DeLurker]

kennyab - thanks for the explanation as to what the 616 / multiverse reference was/is! 

[Tarasme]

ITA w/ kennyab's 2nd to last post- esp

Therapy is a very private issue, and sometimes people need to do it in secret... If Coulson felt more comfortable seeing someone without other's eyes on him, more power to him.

 

I actually think this is more relevant if he wanted May to kill him if he went alien induced bananas. If he thought AT ALL that his therapy might mitigate May's decision to cross him off, he'd withhold. He wouldn't want her to think he might be -could be- was talking to someone to- get better therefore he didn't need killd-dd.

 

and

Again, this is a Fury/Hill/Coulson thing. I'm willing to give them until the end of the season to flesh this out more, as I think they've earned it as this point. ... then just saying that he thinks the base might have some information about the scepter doesn't necessarily help his case with May. She may see it as obsession with the weapon Loki used to kill Coulson/Coulson's existential crisis that's fueled everyone's paranoia about him. ... If it's about saving Mike and a powered person from Hydra torture, that's easy enough for her to go along with. But he's in no position to even give the impression of tilting at windmills.

 

And mucho gracias for the context of 616!

 

 

COMPLETELY OT: I just watched a trailer for NBC's Aquarius. So nice to see David Duchovny on the public airwaves- please let it not suck.

[Bruinsfan]

Love crazy Ward. I cracked up at him telling May that the way of her dealing with her issues was him. I think I saw the fire shoot from her eyes.

Oh yeah, that was a great scene. Go right ahead Ward, needle the person who can kill you with her bare hands if she lets that iron self-control drop.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm disappointed in Jemma, that she would try to cold-bloodedly murder Ward in the middle of a mission that Coulson picked Ward to contribute to. One, it's a mission—focus on the plan. Two, it's cold-blooded murder for revenge. That's different from your job being to kill bad guys and protect innocents. I'm sad to see Jemma acting on it.

I'm also disappointed that Coulson never made more of an effort to rescue and deprogram Agent 33. Bobbi could have advocated more for her, too. Coulson obviously would go to the ends of the earth to rescue and rehabilitate agents—it's been a glaring plot hole that 33 never got that consideration. So it took Ward to talk him into it, finally.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE SAME FEELINGS AS WARD, SHOW! Yuck!

I did think the team meeting was hilarious, and I laughed out loud when Skye called Ward Candyman—it was creepy the way he just showed up in the doorway after his name was mentioned!

SkyeMommy is getting even shadier. She said before that banishment wasn't the worst thing she could have done to SkyeDaddy, so when she said she was wasn't going to send him away again, it did sound a bit like option 2 was on the table. It would be hilarious if she tried to kill him and Raina foretold it. Little Sonic is definitely fomenting a rebellion.

 

For my money, at the point when Simmons struck, Ward had outlived his usefulness. My only problem was how she struck -- in such a way and from such a distance that Bakshi could sacrifice himself, rather than any number of opportunities she would have had to walk up next to Ward and put the disintegrator device on him when he was preoccupied.

 

In terms of it being attempted murder, I'm OK with that. We've already seen that for someone like Ward, the regular legal system is not going to work. And there's no denying that he murdered Victoria Hand, probably somewhere between a half-dozen and dozen other SHIELD agents, and tried to kill Jemma and Leo. Oh, and he also betrayed his country, another capital crime.

 

In terms of Agent 33, I'm not clear on when Coulson had the chance to track her down and rescue her. Given the million things he was trying to juggle at the time, including being hunted himself, I don't see when the opportunity presented itself. 

 

How he treats her going forward, though, should be interesting, as will the question of whether Kara actually wants to be a SHIELD agent again.

[sinkwriter]

I agree that Jemma made a terrible choice that could have messed up the mission, and I'm sad for her that she's reached this point where she's become more hardened and jaded and capable of murder. I was frustrated with her that she might put the mission in jeopardy because she was so focused on getting rid of Ward.

 

However... Ward saying he's disappointed in her? Like he's her father or older brother and she's done something to hurt him? That's complete bullshit. She owes him nothing. He's not her friend. He's not her family. It's his traitorous actions and what he did to Jemma and Fitz that helped bring her to this state of mind. So his statement was yet another reminder of how clueless and disconnected he is to what he's truly done to these people. The fact that he can't see it, and that he thinks they should just be able to easily get over it or move on, is insane. Like SweetTooth said, he has no grasp of the scope of what he's done.

Edited April 30, 2015 by sinkwriter

[DeLurker]

I agree that Jemma made a terrible choice that could have messed up the mission, and I'm sad for her that she's reached this point where she's become more hardened and jaded and capable of murder. I was frustrated with her that she might put the mission in jeopardy because she was so focused on getting rid of Ward.

 

While all very good points, I kind of want to see Jemma continue to try to kill Ward.  She could be assigned the job of creating weapons to target one individual and Ward could be assigned as the test subject.  A chronic game of cat and mouse where Jemma is always the cat.

[Sakura12]

Considering Ward just left after that, he served his purpose already and wasn't needed anymore. 

 

Ward also has no right to be disappointed in Jemma, he's partly responsible for turning her into what she is now. Just like he's responsible for what happened to Fitz. I hope they don't forgive him after doing one semi-good thing. He has to do a lot gain back anything from any of them. They owe him nothing, he's owes them a lot. 

[sinkwriter]

I also think Ward knows more about his mistakes than he lets on. He told Coulson outright in that final phone call that he got the hell out of there to avoid being imprisoned again, or mind-wiped. So he's fully aware that he's made choices that mean he should be in prison. He just doesn't want to be in prison, so he left.

 

He already showed little to no responsibility by talking about his actions in that team meeting as if they weren't his own actions ("mistakes were made," "people were hurt"), disassociating from his actions and treating them as if they weren't as big a deal as everyone's making them out to be, and that he just wants them all to move on from it. His leaving is yet another way he's not taking responsibility for his terrible actions and the devastation he brought.

[paigow]

Why did Ward let Simmons live...Genuine remorse/ now we're even? or Better Luck Next Time, rookie? or I will let you live with your failure...until it consumes you...because I will never let you get this close again? 

[xqueenfrostine]

In terms of it being attempted murder, I'm OK with that. We've already seen that for someone like Ward, the regular legal system is not going to work. And there's no denying that he murdered Victoria Hand, probably somewhere between a half-dozen and dozen other SHIELD agents, and tried to kill Jemma and Leo. Oh, and he also betrayed his country, another capital crime.

Also important to note is the fact that Jemma knew that Coulson had decided not to bring Ward to justice. I feel like maybe if she believed that there was a chance that Ward would be punished for his crimes the normal way, she might not have felt so ready to mete out justice herself using the only means available to her. Ward has killed and hurt a lot of people, and will likely do so again. I don't believe that murder should be the answer to this problem, but I also think Coulson's decision to let him go free is as morally problematic as Simmons's decision to take the matter into her own hands. I get why he made a deal with Ward, but that doesn't mean that letting him back into the world might not have fatal consequences down the line and if it does Coulson's made himself complicit to that. In that light, I don't feel quite as bad about Simmons trying to take Ward down before he got away as I would have had she tried to kill him when he was still a prisoner on their base.

[Donny Ketchum]

I'm also disappointed that Coulson never made more of an effort to rescue and deprogram Agent 33. Bobbi could have advocated more for her, too. Coulson obviously would go to the ends of the earth to rescue and rehabilitate agents—it's been a glaring plot hole that 33 never got that consideration. So it took Ward to talk him into it, finally.

Kara/Agent 33 did get consideration!  During a battle with May, she was even offered the chance to be deprogrammed from Hydra's brainwashing, but she turned them down!  That is not Coulson's fault.

[sinkwriter]

Just a thought: if she's already been programmed by Hydra, can she make that choice? Is she in full capacity of her mental facilities in order to say, yes, help me?

[kitlee625]

Just a thought: if she's already been programmed by Hydra, can she make that choice? Is she in full capacity of her mental facilities in order to say, yes, help me?

I think that's a good point. There have always been obstacles that the writers have thrown in the path of the SHIELD team to prevent them from helping her, so there's at least some in universe excuse. That being said, it will be interesting to see how this plays out now that she is on the base.

 

Tbh, I'm torn between believing that Ward truly left her there because he wants to help Kara, and this all being part of some master plan. After all, when he was describing how he manipulated the team the first time, he said that manipulated Coulson by giving him someone that he would want to help, and now he's literally done the same thing with Kara.

[ChelseaNH]

As I recall, Kara was knocked out twice in fights with SHIELD, so theoretically there were opportunities to grab her up and take her back to base.

[Maverick]

 Did they know Agent 33 was brainwashed or did they just assume she had thrown in with Hydra and was refusing to come back to SHIELD?

[Donny Ketchum]

Did they know Agent 33 was brainwashed or did they just assume she had thrown in with Hydra and was refusing to come back to SHIELD?

Yes, they knew.  It was why Coulson offered to help her in the first place.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[Watcher0363]

While all very good points, I kind of want to see Jemma continue to try to kill Ward.  She could be assigned the job of creating weapons to target one individual and Ward could be assigned as the test subject.  A chronic game of cat and mouse where Jemma is always the cat.

LOL. I think at this point Simmons is Wile E. Coyote super genius. With SHIELD labs being Acme manufacturing. Jemma, can I call you Jemma? Be the coyote. NA na na na na na...... Ward, can I call you Ward? Be the road runner. NA na na na na na na.  ......

[Bec]

I was getting a serious case of secondhand embarrassment for Ward when he was addressing the elephant in the room. He was not particularly endearing with that laundry list of things he does not regret. And my reaction was the same as May when he started in on his bad childhood. Again. Though I did get some chuckles out of Fitz cutting in: "Mistakes were made -" "By you." "People were hurt -" "By you." Hee!

 

From the gist of his phone conversation with Coulson at the end though, maybe he finally gets that he doesn't deserve to be forgiven. Sweet little Jemma trying to kill him probably did the trick?

 

But damn I felt sorry for him when he let Kara go so that SHIELD can help her. I take it that is the last thing they needed to get from Coulson. I'm not reading anything more into it than that.

 

I'm gonna feel pretty stupid if that turns out to be a trick of some kind.

 

But if it's not, I have a feeling Kara is not going to be happy with him just leaving her. And what is Ward going to do with himself now, with no one else to give him a purpose? Is it bad that I find that more intriguing than whatever is up with boring old REALD and the power struggle amongst the inhumans?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Bec

[Jazzy24]

I was getting a serious case of secondhand embarrassment for Ward when he was addressing the elephant in the room. He was not particularly endearing with that laundry list of things he does not regret. And my reaction was the same as May when he started in on his bad childhood. Again. Though I did get some chuckles out of Fitz cutting in: "Mistakes were made -" "By you." "People were hurt -" "By you." Hee!

From the gist of his phone conversation with Coulson at the end though, maybe he finally gets that he doesn't deserve to be forgiven. Sweet little Jemma trying to kill him probably did the trick?

But damn I felt sorry for him when he let Kara go so that SHIELD can help her. I take it that is the last thing they needed to get from Coulson. I'm not reading anything more into it than that.

I'm gonna feel pretty stupid if that turns out to be a trick of some kind.

But if it's not, I have a feeling Kara is not going to be happy with him just leaving her. And what is Ward going to do with himself now, with no one else to give him a purpose? Is it bad that I find that more intriguing than whatever is up with boring old REALD and the power struggle amongst the inhumans?

This all so much!!

Ward is the most interesting character or the only one IMO so I would like to see his story more but at the same time I can recognize that his place on the show is almost nonexistent.

I agree with others who say that Ward is not needed(uess to make the show more interesting)but he is the one I care about most but sometimes writers need to learn to let characters go. I have already made peace with the possibility of Ward leaving or dying.

[KirkB]

I think they're building Ward up as, like Coulson put it, the bad option. The kind of recurring bad guy who is sympathetic to the main characters. They'll come to him in dire circumstances, or when they feel he has relevant information, and he'll call them in when there is a problem or threat to him and his interests that he doesn't feel he can handle on his own (or is too afraid to try). But he's never going to be a part of the team again.

 

On the subject of the episode, I wonder about Coulson rolling his eyes as the thought of Gonzalez and his SHIELD voting on everything. Is he so ingrained in the keeping secrets, only the guy at the top gets to know everything and make decisions mindset of old SHIELD that he can't even conceive of the idea of transparency being a good thing (which I think it is) or is it more that he figures in the time they stand around talking and voting they could have already moved in and taken care of the problem? Honestly, I can see both sides of the argument. Fury keeping everything to himself was one of old SHIELD's biggest problems. No, not everyone needs to know everything about everything, for various reasons, but having a community of agents involved in planning and decisions (not something like the old council, people directly involved in SHIELD) isn't a bad foundation for a new organization. If Gonzalez makes a bad or questionable call he can be countermanded by Bobbi and Mack and May. If Coulson makes a bad or questionable call, the rest are out of luck.

[Bruinsfan]

Why did Ward let Simmons live...Genuine remorse/ now we're even? or Better Luck Next Time, rookie? or I will let you live with your failure...until it consumes you...because I will never let you get this close again? 

Might be a case of managing where hunting him down falls on Coulson's priority list. If he just vanishes from the mission like he did, Coulson has lots of other things to worry about. If he leaves Jemma's dead body behind, bringing him to justice zips up to #2 (right below saving Skye from the people she's willingly hanging out with and in no apparent danger from).

[Donny Ketchum]

I think they're building Ward up as, like Coulson put it, the bad option. The kind of recurring bad guy who is sympathetic to the main characters. They'll come to him in dire circumstances, or when they feel he has relevant information, and he'll call them in when there is a problem or threat to him and his interests that he doesn't feel he can handle on his own (or is too afraid to try). But he's never going to be a part of the team again.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Brett gets dropped to recurring status next season since Ward really isn't needed on a regular basis anymore (if at all).  His name only appears on the screen now if Ward does appear in an episode.  Everyone else in the cast can miss entire episodes and still have their names appear, showing me the writers and producers intend to keep their characters.  Only way I see him staying on the roster of regular cast members is if he really is running some kind of long-term con (likely with Kara involved) and we're going to find out about it next season.  Well, we'll see when next season's main roster is announced.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[sinkwriter]

 

If Gonzalez makes a bad or questionable call he can be countermanded by Bobbi and Mack and May. If Coulson makes a bad or questionable call, the rest are out of luck.

 

I have to wonder how long Gonzalez's team voting would last if the team voted against something that Gonzalez feels strongly about. Say, for example, whatever it is he plans to do with the people with special powers. He seems pretty adamant about doing something about them (or to them), even if Bobbie is already showing signs that she disagrees. There may come a point when he doesn't care what the other voters say, he's going to do it his way. And what makes him better than Coulson, at that point?

[xqueenfrostine]

I have to wonder how long Gonzalez's team voting would last if the team voted against something that Gonzalez feels strongly about. Say, for example, whatever it is he plans to do with the people with special powers. He seems pretty adamant about doing something about them (or to them), even if Bobbie is already showing signs that she disagrees. There may come a point when he doesn't care what the other voters say, he's going to do it his way. And what makes him better than Coulson, at that point?

 

It's not that he's better than Coulson, because he's not better that Coulson.  It's that the system he operates in (a system not developed by him, btw!  It's was Bobbi who first said that maybe things should be more democratic) prevents him from having absolute power and that there is always someone else around to ask "is this really a good idea?"   Your question about how long the team voting would last is the wrong one, because it assumes that New SHIELD could still be held together if Gonzales decides to say "%$ what y'all think!  I'm in charge."  I think it's pretty obvious given Bobbi and even Mac's recent discontent that it wouldn't.  And on some level, Gonzales probably knows that, which is why he does acts on board decisions that he doesn't agree with (and I disagree with your characterization that he hasn't felt strongly about any of the issues he was overruled on).

 

For the way Coulson does things, there's no one around to question his judgment.  His way is so secretive that even the audience can't guess what he's up to until months after the fact.  Which is a problem.  Because yes, secrets are a fundamental part of being the director of a spy agency, but even spy agencies are (at least theoretically) subject to oversight.  As far as we've seen, SHIELD post-CA2 isn't overseen by anyone.  Not the US government, not the World Security Council.  And that makes Coulson's power pretty terrifying when you stop to think about it.  

[sinkwriter]

I'm not arguing that Gonzales doesn't feel strongly about the things they've voted on previously, and I definitely appreciate seeing a group that has checks and balances. I'm just saying he seems particularly adamant about super-powered people and alien stuff, to the point where I wonder if he'll be able to sustain the democratic process he seems to be trying to present.

 

The New SHIELD has already shown themselves to be a bit hypocritical when it comes to spying and lies and secrets (like Coulson pointed out in this episode, even Gonzales has a secret hidden from the rest of his team). I don't disagree that Coulson's way of doing things is problematic, but I also think there may come a point where Gonzales is forced to do the exact same thing (take charge and say that his decision is what stands), not because he's trying to be an asshole but because sometimes a team needs a leader, one to say "We can argue this all day, but what we really need to do is take action and this is the course that needs to happen."

[Bruinsfan]

Is Coulson completely operating in secret and cut off from the World Security Council now that Fury's named him as heir apparent? For that matter, is "Real" SHIELD? It seems as if some major problems with logistics, intel, and jurisdictional conflicts with fully authorized militaries would crop up pretty fast if they have no contact with at least the governments in the World Security Council. And I don't mean as in General Talbot having a personal beef with them, I mean having a carrier battle group hunting them down.

[xqueenfrostine]

I'm not arguing that Gonzales doesn't feel strongly about the things they've voted on previously, and I definitely appreciate seeing a group that has checks and balances. I'm just saying he seems particularly adamant about super-powered people and alien stuff, to the point where I wonder if he'll be able to sustain the democratic process he seems to be trying to present.

 

But the moment he does that it stops being about New SHIELD and becomes about Gonzales.  And further more, I don't think it's been proven that he has the authority to act without the board.

 

Is Coulson completely operating in secret and cut off from the World Security Council now that Fury's named him as heir apparent? For that matter, is "Real" SHIELD? It seems as if some major problems with logistics, intel, and jurisdictional conflicts with fully authorized militaries would crop up pretty fast if they have no contact with at least the governments in the World Security Council. And I don't mean as in General Talbot having a personal beef with them, I mean having a carrier battle group hunting them down.

 

Unless things have changed since the first part of the season (apart from Talbot agreeing to stop hunting SHIELD and a member of the US Senate agreeing to stop calling for their arrest), then no I don't think SHIELD is working under the World Security Council or anyone else as early on they were essentially being treated as an outlaw organization.   I think the World Security Council knows they still exist, but the relationship isn't the same.  Remember, SHIELD was supposed to have been dissolved by the end of Winter Soldier.  Cap, Maria Hill, and Falcon overruled Fury and said that there was no saving SHIELD, and publicly that appears to have happened.  It's why Maria Hill had to go get a job with Stark Industries.  And it's also why at the end of last season, Hill tried to get Coulson a deal through Talbot in exchange for the Providence base before changing her mind.  SHIELD was resurrected in secret through Coulson by a man who is legally dead and without any actual authority to create a legit legally operating spy agency.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I also doubt that somebody is interested in and likes watching this series but is not interested in seeing Age of Ultron.

(raises hand shyly) (please don't throw tomatoes).

I have no intention of going to see the movie, and I haven't seen any of the previous ones. I enjoy the series (more this season actually) but not invested enough for more. I know that I probably miss out on some refrences, but I feel that I'm getting enough of what is going on to enjoy the series on its own (and I also pick up a lot by reading this forum!).

Do you think I should just stop watching? Am I the only alien?

I'm an alien too! I have never seen any of the MCU movies. The only other MCU thing I have watched besides this show is Agent Carter. My only motivation for watching Agents of Shield was Joss Whedon.

So Ward is basically Spike, pre-chip, pre-soul. Just a dangerous person who shows up to vaguely menace the group.

Like Spike, Ward is also the guy all of the main characters openly dislike and insult but they are willing to grudgingly use his help when they are in dire straits.

[sinkwriter]

 

But the moment he does that it stops being about New SHIELD and becomes about Gonzales.  

 

Definitely!

 

I'm not saying it will happen; I'm just saying I'm concerned it could, given how strongly he seems to feel about super-powered people. His disgust and distrust of them may override the common sense he's displayed so far. He's already causing Bobbie to question and seem worried.

 

 

And further more, I don't think it's been proven that he has the authority to act without the board.

 

I'm not sure that's enough to stop someone (or even matter to someone) who decides to take things into their own hands. I hope Gonzales doesn't do such a thing, it might feel clichéd, and I would like Awesome Olmos to get a richer character than your stereotypical xenophobic (or in this case superhero-phobic, LOL) anti-hero/villain.

[Traveller519]

Who likes tracking shots? Not only Skye's fight, but there were some great smaller ones with some of the dialogue. Nice to see some directors go a against the Michael Bay, Heavy-Cut format!

 

The flat line sound next to Lincoln felt very appropriate, it captures his acting well.

 

Great episode leading into the move with the subtle references early on. The more exposition-y ones towards the end of the show were a little on the nose, but I liked the set up. Now, off to the theater!

[Humbugged]

Definitely!

 

I'm not saying it will happen; I'm just saying I'm concerned it could, given how strongly he seems to feel about super-powered people. His disgust and distrust of them may override the common sense he's displayed so far. He's already causing Bobbie to question and seem worried.

 

 

I'm not sure that's enough to stop someone (or even matter to someone) who decides to take things into their own hands. I hope Gonzales doesn't do such a thing, it might feel clichéd, and I would like Awesome Olmos to get a richer character than your stereotypical xenophobic (or in this case superhero-phobic, LOL) anti-hero/villain.

 

He already reeks of Fascist as it is .

 

Him and his lapdog already tried to have Skye sanctioned - did he run that through his Star Chamber (who I'm guessing get to pass judgment on and detain or murder anyone in any country that a majority of 3 say is fine) ? Or is

 

He is going to go full on Jack D Ripper and start a war with the Inhumans

[foreverevolving]

I agree with all of this.

 

I love Simmons, and I love her bad-ass behavior of late, but putting her need to kill Ward above the mission was selfish to me. They had a small team, and Ward WAS helping them. He's crazy, but he's also good at what he does. As a result, Simmons wound up killing someone, which okay, no big loss, but still. Her having no reaction to it is not good. Being able to deceive the bad guys to help the good guys is great. Losing her moral compass is not so much.

 

I love crazy-ass Ward and how delusional he is. I would hate him if he was just being purely manipulative. But I do think he believed his speech was heartwarming. Like, "See? I just want to be one of the team, guys! Isn't this great we're back together again?" He MEANT it. He wasn't saying it just to sound good. That he disregarded sending Fitz and Simmons to the bottom of the ocean proves this. Coulson's "Stop talking to people" is also proof Ward is like a child, just saying crap without any filter and pissing people off without even realizing it. 

 

And it's interesting how he says he doesn't have enough goodness left in him at the same time he's doing something good.

 

I agree. I think you hit the nail on the head.. In terms that Ward is like a child, I can't remember right now if we ended up finding out that ward was the psyco brother or was that the one he killed or the third brother? either way the man obviously didn't grow up in the most normal conditions, which created this desperate need in him to be accepted and loved, so desperate that he would go to grand lengths to have it. he is a grown man who never really grew up so he faked until everything broke to pieces.

he is just as lost as Kara is, which is probably why they were drawn to each other. but him leaving her at the Shield base, so she can regain who she was is a very mature step. he is letting her go for her own good. 

Personally I think the actors have some pretty good chemistry, and i'll be intrigued to see further down the road if this is the end for them or just a necessary step- meaning they need to find themselves first before ending up together. it's an old age trope, but can be a strong one, if written properly. 

[Wynterwolf]

Great episode!

 

Jemma is definitely in a bad place, she's lost her own moral center and this could be a really good long term storyline for her. The injuries to Fitz, from what Ward did to them, were more visible, but Jemma's were just as deep .  

 

With Ward, I don't see anything other than a manipulative sociopath, and part of what he does is he's a genius at tricking people into believing he's sincere.   Dalton is doing a phenomenal job playing the complexity of that.    

 

I think Kara is going to be interesting though, she could be part of Ward's long term plan (I think he does plan to use her for something), but I don't think she knows that.  There is potential there for her to get to a place where she can make a genuine choice, if they decide to go that way.  

Edited May 3, 2015 by Wynterwolf

[KirkB]

And that makes Coulson's power pretty terrifying when you stop to think about it.

 

 

Except it's not, really. Coulson doesn't have any real power. Nor does Gonzalez. They have no authority beyond their own people. No affiliation with any government nor logistical support beyond whatever they can muster. They don't even have as much access to unlimited technology as they did before. Thanks to Hill working with Stark they can call on the Avengers if need be but there is a limit to how much they (Coulson's people) can actually do. At least so far as we've seen the strongest weapons Coulson has access to right now are Deathlok and Skye.

Edited May 3, 2015 by KirkB

[xqueenfrostine]

Except it's not, really. Coulson doesn't have any real power.

 

Until we know what Coulson's been doing with Theta Protocol I don;t think we know for sure how true that is.  I don't really expect Mac's assumption that Coulson has been meeting with enhanced individuals all over the world and is building an army of them to be on the money, but if it could be a really big deal. We know it must be somewhat scary as the Koenig brothers reacted with dread when Coulson commanded them to activate Theta Protocol if anything went wrong with their mission in Puerto Rico.

 

Which speaking of Puerto Rico, Coulson's mission there might have leveled the entire island had things gone wrong.  By Bobbi's estimates, millions of lives were on the line.  How is that not any real power?  Yes Hydra was involved, but as New Shield pointed out, they only found the Kree city because Coulson lead them there.

Edited May 3, 2015 by xqueenfrostine

[jhlipton]

(raises hand shyly) (please don't throw tomatoes).

I have no intention of going to see the movie, and I haven't seen any of the previous ones. I enjoy the series (more this season actually) but not invested enough for more. I know that I probably miss out on some refrences, but I feel that I'm getting enough of what is going on to enjoy the series on its own (and I also pick up a lot by reading this forum!).

Do you think I should just stop watching? Am I the only alien?

 

{meep beep bzzt click!]  Translation: I'm another alien -- I've only seen the first Iron Man and have no real desire to see the others.  I even passed on Agent Carter because it sounded very much not my thing.  Most movies I watch at home anyway -- Closed Captioning and potty breaks for the win.

 

However... Ward saying he's disappointed in her? Like he's her father or older brother and she's done something to hurt him? 

 

I got the feeling that he was disappointed that she killed the wrong guy.  That's why he let her live -- so she could become a better killer.

[emma675]

I'm going to be ducking tomatoes here, but I can't help it, I like Ward. Yes, he's a messed up psychopath who truly deserves every bad thing the team can throw at him, but I love watching the effect he has on the team. I feel like the snarkiness, the anger, the awkwardness, the intensity is ramped up when he's around and I love that (I also feel like the dialogue gets much better and snappier when he's in scenes). He's a mess, but the actor has done such a good job making Ward truly clueless as to why no one will forgive and forget what he's done. I cracked up when Ward said he was "disappointed" in Jemma when she tried to kill him. I'm never not entertained when Ward is on screen.

[Raja]

I'm going to be ducking tomatoes here, but I can't help it, I like Ward. Yes, he's a messed up psychopath who truly deserves every bad thing the team can throw at him, but I love watching the effect he has on the team. I feel like the snarkiness, the anger, the awkwardness, the intensity is ramped up when he's around and I love that (I also feel like the dialogue gets much better and snappier when he's in scenes). He's a mess, but the actor has done such a good job making Ward truly clueless as to why no one will forgive and forget what he's done. I cracked up when Ward said he was "disappointed" in Jemma when she tried to kill him. I'm never not entertained when Ward is on screen.

I think a lot of us "like" him, Like Boyd Crowder on Justified, JR Ewing of Dallas......we just don't see him as part of SHIELD anymore and we don't want that much redemption for him.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Raja

[xqueenfrostine]

I completely agree with Raja. I like Ward and think being revealed as an agent of Hydra is literally the best thing that ever happened to his character. Which is part of why I have zero interest in the idea of his redemption. He doesn't need a redemption, just like Raina doesn't need one and like Cal doesn't need one. The ways in which they are awful are also the ways in which they are great. Redeeming them would take the punch out of their characters, and that would be sad. I hope they keep giving Wardl reasons to be on the show, but I don't want them to ever neuter him by bringing him back into the fold. His character is at its best when he hovers between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Oh I loved this episode.  I hadn't realized how much I had missed the original team until they were all together.

 

If Angel can be redeemed, if Regina, Damon, Klaus, and Xena can be redeemed, then I think Ward can be.  I mean....this is tv.

 

I did note some serious regret on Ward's part.  And thought leaving Agent 33 in the hands of Shield was a good move.  And I think Ward was disappointed in Gemma because she had become a wanna-be killer- how she had changed, and not for the better.  She didn't tell the team what she had done, so I think she's disappointed in herself too.  And also disappointed that she missed.

 

I did laugh at the "I'm still glad I shot you" comments.

 

I like Lincoln but I feel like he is too perfect, and I will always love Coulson.

 

How they are going to tie in the last couple of episodes with the movie...I have no idea how they will pull it off, but I look forward to seeing it.

[Donny Ketchum]

If Angel can be redeemed, if Regina, Damon, Klaus, and Xena can be redeemed, then I think Ward can be.  I mean....this is tv.

Yes, but most, if not all, of those characters were also made to face what they'd done before they could start on their road to redemption.  And even then, Regina is still more than just a little on the bubble when it comes to hers.  Ward has had what he's done addressed, but so far, he's still not been truly made to face it or make any true amends over it.  Until he does, no redemption should be within sniffing distance for him.  None whatsoever.

[FurryFury]

I've only seen the first Iron Man and have no real desire to see the others.  I even passed on Agent Carter because it sounded very much not my thing.

 

You really should try Agent Carter because it's really not a comic book show and it totally deserves recognition (because it's awesome). I've seen everything MCU, but I'm not a huge fan (I had to get into it because I'm a Whedon stan and the only stuff I've genuinely enjoyed are Thor movies, Avengers and maybe The Winter Soldier), yet Agent Carter tapped into my love of great female characters and spy fiction like Alias or Nikita (old or new, take your pick), plus a lot of feminist themes and great acting by Hayley Atwell. It most likely won't be renewed, but that 8 episodes deserve to be watched and rewatched.

 

As for Ward, I do love him. In fact, I consider him the most fascinating character of the show (at least among the main cast). But I have no idea if it's possible to retain him interacting with the leads on a consistent basis - most likely, no. And redeeming him without some plot device I haven't been expecting should be out of question. But still, he's such a blast to watch. I'm conflicted.

 

If Angel can be redeemed, if Regina, Damon, Klaus, and Xena can be redeemed, then I think Ward can be.  I mean....this is tv.

 

Please, please, don't dump Angel with those awful characters (except Xena, she's earned hers, from what I've seen back in my childhood). He had a legitimate excuse. These people? No. And AFAIK, Klaus is nowhere near redemption (thank God). As for Regina, let's just say that show is so bad these days I could only stomach watching 1 episode of the latest 5, and that's coming from a fan (of the show, not Regina).

Edited May 4, 2015 by FurryFury