S30.E10: Bring The Popcorn

[Cutty]

I just listened to Jenn's exit interview with Cesternino. She said Will came up to her after his blowup and said he had no problem with her and that they were good, and claims they are on good terms post show. But she still doesn't know what his problem is with Shirin and why he has never apologized. 

[peachmangosteen]

Tyler could easily apologize though and not break a confidentiality agreement, but obviously for whatever reason he feels he doesn't need to. Which I won't understand until he tells me Shirin slapped Will and called him ugly or something.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Cutty]

"Looking back I wish I would have stepped up and said something" isn't breaking any confidentiality agreement. Gimme a break. It appears Tyler is even more boring and uninteresting in real life as he is on the show, if that's possible.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Cutty

[blackwing]

I'm not caring for Tyler at all, he seems to be doing nothing on this show but sit there and squint his already squinty eyes.

[peachmangosteen]

For me, the fact of the matter is that even if Shirin was blasting Will too (which I'm sorry but I do not believe and won't unless I'm shown evidence of it) it doesn't somehow make Will's diatribe any less gross. As my mom always tells me, you're responsible for your own actions. Sure, maybe in that case, Shirin would look bad too, but Will still looks like a dick no matter what Shirin said.

[ProfCrash]

See, I think Carolyn and Tyler are doing far more then we are seeing. I don't think Carolyn and Tyler are at the center of the drama and hence not seen as good tv by the Producers. I do think that Tyler is doing his best to work with Mike and Rodney to find the best path to the end and a win. He is stirring the pot in order to make sure that Will and Rodney don't flip. I am not sure what Carolyn is doing because we see less of her then we do Tyler. She has an idol and seems to get along with pretty much everyone else out there except for Shirin.

 

The big scene we saw with Carolyn was when she found the idol, she flipped on Shirin and Max, she told Shirin that she was annoying, and that she didn't like going on the reward with Shirin. None of this has made Carolyn look particularly great.

 

Tyler is paying attention, he saw Joe get the immunity clue that Carolyn missed in her own damn soda, working multiple paths (Joe, Mike, and Rodney), sharing information when he thinks it is important (Mike and the clue and Will and the food rumors) and withholding information when it makes sense (Carolyn's immunity idol).

 

But they are not yelling, screaming, posturing, or bullying so they are not "good TV".

[KarateKate]

4. Tyler. I also don't like Tyler. He does want to win, but doesn't seem interested in anything besides that. No sense of fun or humor, no snarky confessionals about how he can't believe how horrible the people in his alliance are but he's stuck with them, no... anything, except "Tylerbot seeks victory. Scanning for allies. Alliance confirmed. Simulate humanization by employing interaction protocol with allies. Refuel with rice. Re-confirm aliances. Power down." What the hell does a robot need with a million dollars? I mean, a cool robot like Bender, sure. But not Tyler.

I don't know if I would go as strong as LOL, but you made me LAC (Literally Audibly Chuckle). And a true LAC is rarer than a billion lying LOLs. [tip figurative hat to you]

 

But they all wanted to read the letters ON CAMERA, not privately.  they wanted the camera crew to take turns with each of them, so they could cry on cue, show their human, vulnerable sides ON CAMERA.  

 

Yeah, I'm a cynic. Blame reality TV

I'm not sure if they wanted to read them on camera, or that they had to read them on camera. I always wonder exactly how much direction they are given (like, you may ONLY read the letters for the first time on camera). Yeah, I'm a cynic, too. Blame "reality" TV. 

[Daisy]

I'm still curious as to how Jeff was going to rule on that refund.  No dice, right?

 

I think hincandenza is onto something.  The way Shirin is being treated is so "Lord of the Flies", and wasn't the kid who got targeted first there also more of a bookworm than the rest?  It appears that Survivor gives nerdy people like Cochran and Max and Shirin the "opportunity" to give up their real-world gains and go back to middle school and get bullied.  (There is another example like that whose name escapes me: an Asian-American woman who seemed a bland personality but nice, who was inexplicably treated as a pariah, maybe five or six seasons ago.)

 

You know - I really don't know.  Jeff of Seasons 8 through 20  would have shut that down so fast. But lately Jeff has been all "Hey dude, Let's make a deal." In my day Jeff gave a tiny can a rice, and demanded Colby's tarp (aka: their shelter) for food. Last season, Jeff is all "Hey i'll take your rewards." (the heck?) 

 

This is why i wish someone had caught the lack of "you can't share money" aspect of Jeff's speech. (again I think maybe they dropped it, or it was implied later) but considering (again) it is always stated clearly what you can/can not do - it was a mistake by Jeff, but no one took advantage to get the advantage. But I also guess... with that. how could you share an advantage like that. 

 

Which is why either

A: eliminate the advantages from the game

B: instead of HII's have hidden advantages. but you can only get them via clues. 

C: have an advantage if you win reward or immunity. 

 

 

 

And the character you are thinking about is Christina (One World) they treated her like crap. 

[Miss Scarlet]

I've always seen Tyler as a bystander who just lets vile shit go on and pretends to be uninvolved and innocent of all wrongdoings. I thought it was very telling that in Max's exit interviews he talks how Tyler and Carolyn were totally fine with all of the sexist bullshit that Joaquin said to Shirin at the WC camp. I think that both Tyler and Carolyn are a) bystanders who don't care if someone else is getting cut down, as long as no one's insulting either of them and b) especially didn't mind in this situation because they don't like Shirin, haven't from the beginning and are unable to understand that even if they don't like Shirin on a personal level, she is a human being who should be spoken to with respect and without being every asshole's whipping person when they feel badly about themselves or about their own game.

 

And I completely agree with everyone who's saying that I don't care what was edited out. That kind of attack is never deserved. Even if Shirin was saying vile things to Will first (which I highly doubt) he could have responded like a mature adult and told her why what she was saying was offensive and wrong. You know, kind of like how Shirin responded to Will's attack.

[peachmangosteen]

I feel the same way about Tyler and Carolyn, wudpixie, and agree with your whole post.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Miss Scarlet]

 

This combined with the fact that the ratings are apparently great is just disheartening. Probst and co. probably feel so vindicated now. Of course I'm part of the problem as I continue to watch and post here!

I know. I want to stop rewarding Probst and co. for their glorification of abuse and misogyny. I feel so guilty that I've been saying it for seasons and keep watching. But, as some other wise posters have said before, at least some of these assholes get negative feedback for their horrible behaviour and there is the slightest chance that they will take it to heart. And maybe it'll prevent them from doing the same assholish behaviour in real life where people won't be able to give them the kind of negative feedback they deserve.

 

 

I believe that just like the Survivors there, that in America at large there is a profound hatred and distrust of anyone even remotely bright. People like Dan, Rodney, Will, I think in some part of their selves they know the score; they know that here, they can gang up on anyone smart or different, because it's the only glimpse of power or control they'll have in a world that will soon automate their blue collared asses out of a job.

This is so, so true. And if their families and circle of friends are similar to them, they probably have the same blue collar line of work. So in real life these people don't have smart people that they can whip and take out their frustrations on. The resentment of intelligent people makes my blood boil. Maybe they should just appreciate the things that intelligent people bring to society like technology, medicine, etc. But of course these people are too idiotic to think like this. And of course this is only exacerbated by the fact that Jeff is strangely (for someone who is wealthy and has a very cushy job) resentful of anyone who can put a coherent sentence together.

 

That's what amazed me about Dan's treatment of Shirin. Of course it was wrong for Dan to talk to anyone like that, regardless of gender, success, intelligence or education. But he was talking down to someone who is a million times smarter and more successful than she is! Instead of being bitter and resentment, maybe he should use his time on the island with her to learn from her. 

 

It also really, really disturbs me that the victim of every season that gets picked on for no reason is almost always a woman (or once in a while a "weak" guy like Cochran, but if I remember correctly, Cochran was ostracized because he was bad at challenges and then bedause he flipped so at least those were in-game reasons). I remember being really upset by the way Sierra got treated in Tocantins and Tyson saying that he just likes to crush dumb people's dreams. What an f****** asshole. And he was brought back 3 times!!! I still have no idea why she was "dumb" or "annoying". I guess by having breasts and a vagina? And then after she left all the hatred was directed towards Erin because of course they couldn't go the last 10 days or whatever without eviscerating a woman.

Edited April 24, 2015 by wudpixie

[dolphincorn]

I don't know what I'd do if I was cast on the show in a season of assholes. I could get on my high-horse and lecture them about their vile behavior, or I could shut up and try to win the money. It's a rock-and-a-hard-place situation, and until I hear a little more from the participants, I'll reserve judgment on their characters.

[mojoween]

I'm wondering...while many people feel that Will should apologize to Shirin, should he really?

I mean, putting aside the fact that most people don't speak to other people that way, if he absolutely meant what he said when he was saying it, why would he apologize?

I think an insincere "I'm only saying I'm sorry because you took offense to what I said" apology is worse than not saying anything at all.

I'm just ruminating here, but that stuck out to me.

[hincandenza]

But nope, I get it now.  it was never about the actual TV show we watched, was it?

 

I believe that just like the Survivors there, that in America at large there is a profound hatred and distrust of anyone even remotely bright. People like Dan, Rodney, Will, I think in some part of their selves they know the score; they know that here, they can gang up on anyone smart or different, because it's the only glimpse of power or control they'll have in a world that will soon automate their blue collared asses out of a job.

In the light of the next day, I want to apologize to Sentient Meat; I considered a private mail but figured my mea culpa should be public.  While I stand by most of what I said in terms of Will making his choices, and how we judge people... it isn't right especially in this thread to be overly sardonic in a way that implies an attack against Sentient Meat for having a different opinion, or to imply that his/her opinions are largely tainted by some simplistic class warfare ideas.  This is especially true since his/her opinion is part of a smaller minority which makes it easier to mock or disregard.  Mote in your eye, meet lumber in mine.

 

I get that there may be more we didn't see- not that it justifies what we did see- though I still vehemently agree that what we saw from Will was simply unjustifiable unless the editors have hidden from us at least one such proportionate attack from Shirin.  But even so, I should have not been as emotional as I was when posting (a recurring problem with me, sadly :(  ), nor should I engage in any armchair psychoanalysis of my fellow posters any more than we should of the people on the TV screen.

 

Every human being deserves some compassion, and someone trying to understand and walk a mile in their shoes... even more so when- like Shirin on the show, or Will after that episode aired- most people are piling on them.  It's as fair for us to judge those who stood idly by when Shirin was attacked, as it is a reminder that I shouldn't do the same thing from the safety of this board.  That some are trying to understand his actions, and then to defend or downplay them- while I think mistaken in this case- is not an instinct we should discourage in ourselves or others.  I didn't even take my own advice in that same post!

 

Sorry about that, SM. 

[peachmangosteen]

You are so right, dolphincorn. I mean it's easy for me to sit here and judge people for not being decent human beings (and I do that all the time during BB season, too!) but if I'm being honest with myself I would probably do the same thing. I certainly hope though that I would speak up and not let a bunch of dicks have free reign to tear someone down.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

"Looking back I wish I would have stepped up and said something" isn't breaking any confidentiality agreement. Gimme a break. It appears Tyler is even more boring and uninteresting in real life as he is on the show, if that's possible.

 

Yes. He didn't seem to be worried about his confidentiality agreement until he realized that no one was buying his claims of editing and how it wasn't as one-sided as it looked and, my favorite, how his smirk was edited in. Because he has full awareness of his facial expressions at all times, I guess. When the reaction to that was, "nah, you're garbage," it was only then that he said he couldn't talk about it because it was requested by ... somebody for, uh, reasons.

 

My sense is that all of these people thought their behavior was just fine until they saw what the audience reaction was. Now they're either tap-dancing like crazy or hiding.

[BigRedCheese]

"Someone described Will as a 350 lb giant and Shirin as a helpless tiny woman"

 

I don't know if you're talking about me, I did say that it was disturbing to see a 350 pound man getting in the face of a young woman, I didn't call Will a giant or say Shirin was tiny or helpless, so maybe it wasn't my post. My main point was that he was very imposing toward her, and when he said something to Mike, he made sure he was sitting down, he acted big and tough with a young woman, but when it came to confronting a man, he was cowardly and did it sitting down, and from a distance.

[Sentient Meat]

In the light of the next day, I want to apologize to Sentient Meat; I considered a private mail but figured my mea culpa should be public.  While I stand by most of what I said in terms of Will making his choices, and how we judge people... it isn't right especially in this thread to be overly sardonic in a way that implies an attack against Sentient Meat for having a different opinion, or to imply that his/her opinions are largely tainted by some simplistic class warfare ideas.  This is especially true since his/her opinion is part of a smaller minority which makes it easier to mock or disregard.  Mote in your eye, meet lumber in mine.

 

I get that there may be more we didn't see- not that it justifies what we did see- though I still vehemently agree that what we saw from Will was simply unjustifiable unless the editors have hidden from us at least one such proportionate attack from Shirin.  But even so, I should have not been as emotional as I was when posting (a recurring problem with me, sadly :(  ), nor should I engage in any armchair psychoanalysis of my fellow posters any more than we should of the people on the TV screen.

 

Every human being deserves some compassion, and someone trying to understand and walk a mile in their shoes... even more so when- like Shirin on the show, or Will after that episode aired- most people are piling on them.  It's as fair for us to judge those who stood idly by when Shirin was attacked, as it is a reminder that I shouldn't do the same thing from the safety of this board.  That some are trying to understand his actions, and then to defend or downplay them- while I think mistaken in this case- is not an instinct we should discourage in ourselves or others.  I didn't even take my own advice in that same post!

 

Sorry about that, SM. 

Thanks for saying that... I found the post ironic because I have a "white collar" education and own my own business... but was simply trying to bring balance to a debate that seemed to become its own form of bullying based purely on the show's editors' spin.  I don't necessarily blame people for reading the narrative the way the producers intended but it felt like the public reaction was going a little far in one direction.  I don't know if you saw Sierra's take but it felt like a more even handed analysis of the situation.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjPzkrBcp98

[peachmangosteen]

My sense is that all of these people thought their behavior was just fine until they saw what the audience reaction was. Now they're either tap-dancing like crazy or hiding.

 

Bingo.

 

Sierra in that video and Tyler on twitter both said that it was two-sided, but neither has said what exactly Shirin said so it ultimately means nothing. We all saw exactly what Will did/said and it wasn't pretty and there's no justifying/defending it IMO. Maybe if Shirin was standing over him as he sat and screaming at him then Will's actions would be more understandable, but they still aren't right.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[scowl]

Will was wrong to abuse Shirin, but she was wrong to speculate with Jenn and Mike that he was not sharing without searching for the box first. 

Is Survivor no longer the show in which you outplay, outsmart, and outwit your opponents? Is it now the game where only moral and fair play is considered "right"?

 

Will stupidly thought he'd score unconditional points by giving the stuff away. Since he's an idiot, he never dreamed that someone would think that maybe that he had more food out there because he believes everyone loves him. Anyone who's watched Survivor (or even just the first episode of this season) could see that his "gift" would sound fishy and he would have to prove to everyone where and how he got it.

 

Since things didn't go the way he expected he did what every bully does: find the smallest and weakest person and abuse them until they feel better about themselves.

[BigRedCheese]

Yeah SM, I kind of got the feeling that you were just playing devil's advocate, and that video is interesting, but for me, unless Shirn pulled a gun on him, there is nothing that can justify that behavior. I hope Will has had time to reflect, and that he will offer a full throated apology at the reunion, I doubt it, but I hope so.

[Sentient Meat]

Bingo.

 

Sierra in that video and Tyler on twitter both said that it was two-sided, but neither has said what exactly Shirin said so it ultimately means nothing. We all saw exactly what Will did/said and it wasn't pretty and there's no justifying/defending it IMO. Maybe if Shirin was standing over him as he sat and screaming at him then Will's actions would be more understandable, but they still aren't right.

I'm not a religious person, but I respect people's religion.  Shirin's ridicule of Will's religious beliefs, even though she may have been right... is a clear personal attack.

[Guest]

I don't really fault Tyler or others.  (Wasn't Carolyn not present for it?)  

 

It's a game where one wrong word from you could mean you're out next, or outside a majority alliance.  If some players want to torture each other with words out there, why should other players have to get involved.  Shirin wasn't in physical danger and she could've walked away herself at any time.  She sat there listening as though she was fine with his lecture.  She wasn't even crying or asking him to stop.  Will is all bark and no bite.  No way would he do anything with or without cameras on him.

 

And I can imagine Shirin saying some pretty harsh stuff to Will to instigate it.  Which is not saying she deserved it.  But we didn't see the whole thing.  Start the scene off with Shirin making whale sounds at Will or 'yes massuh' or some other highly offensive act and the whole thing is changed.  

[peachmangosteen]

Based on what we have been shown of Shirin, I think it's more likely that she was pulling the sort of passive-aggressive stuff she did with Joaquin. Which is not flattering to her, but again, Will's an asshole and he was 100% wrong to do what he did.

 

I'm not a religious person, but I respect people's religion.  Shirin's ridicule of Will's religious beliefs, even though she may have been right... is a clear personal attack.

 

Will apparently brings his religion into the game a lot so if he then wants to conduct an ugly, personal attack on someone it's fair game for that person to question whether someone who is supposedly such a Christian man should be doing that. Also, Shirin did that after he started attacking her, so I don't know how that can be used to defend his actions.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Nedsdag]

Since I just watched the show (this morning), so I have not read all the replies in the thread. However, I have to voice my two cents:

 

• Will has a beef, but why did he pick on Shirin when Mike and Jen were in on this as well? I don't like Shirin at all. I don't like her face, and I don't like the fact that she is Ms. Survivor Encyclopedia; HOWEVER, as a woman, I found what he said to her was offensive and disgusting. That was a cowardly thing to do. It's a good thing he's as useless as tits on a bull in challenges, because he's worthless as a man and a human being.
• This is Mike's game to win, but dude, STFU with the fact that you are on "the chopping block." You are in control of this game! You have a HII. Stop it, please!
• If Mike wasn't so far ahead of the pack in this game, I would say that Tyler would be his main competition. He's a sneaky bastard, isn't he? Maybe next week's show may pull him ahead of Mike.
• All of a sudden, Jenn became righteous hanging around Mike and Shirin? It's too bad it ended up costing her, especially when Mike and Shirin voted her out. At least she'll have fun in the Ponderosa with Joe and Hali.
• TBTH, this group of contestants are probably some of the most vile people around. It's so bad that I'm rooting for Sierra or even Mama C to pull off a miracle and win.
• Speaking of Joe, even with the man bun he still looks hot.

 

 

[Guest]

Yes. He didn't seem to be worried about his confidentiality agreement until he realized that no one was buying his claims of editing and how it wasn't as one-sided as it looked and, my favorite, how his smirk was edited in. Because he has full awareness of his facial expressions at all times, I guess. When the reaction to that was, "nah, you're garbage," it was only then that he said he couldn't talk about it because it was requested by ... somebody for, uh, reasons.

 

My sense is that all of these people thought their behavior was just fine until they saw what the audience reaction was. Now they're either tap-dancing like crazy or hiding.

I suspect Survivor's people who keep them quiet on social media to enforce their contract rules probably told him to watch his step and wait for his time to speak.  

 

I know what situations I would've smirked at in my past and not.  I have no doubt the editors use expressions out of context as much as they use wildlife shots out of context.  Just look at Sierra's clip above.  How many breaks are in it, practically in mid-sentence?  I'm sure most of it is edited for time but what else do they not want shared (yet or at all), given the story they're telling?    

[pamplemousse]

Will is my least favorite kind of player -- the egotistical player. Far worse than the emotional player. When he found out from Nina that Vince had brought up his name for elimination, he went off and was like oh, it's on like donkey kong, I'm gonna get him off blah blah blah. When he heard that Shirin (and Mike and Jenn, but he probably wasn't even listening anymore at that point, he heard Shirin's name and went off because he already hates her and was just looking for an excuse/opportunity to tear her a new orifice) suspected him of hoarding food, he went ballistic. His ego is so ridiculously large (I don't really give a crap about Will's size because even if he was the fattest person on the planet, his ego would still be 1,000x larger) that as soon as he hears his name connected with some sort of negativity, he sees red and considers it personal. He never even stops to think about whether it's strategic or game play because he's so freaking self-centered and egotistical that he makes everything personal, so he probably always hits below the belt and goes for personal attacks when he's going off on someone or during an argument. His egoism and how he lets it rule how he 'plays' the game -- I use the term loosely since I don't even think he's playing much, he just lets things happen around him and has been secure so far because his vote is needed and there've been other targets for elimination -- makes him a deeply useless and pointless member of the show because he brings no game play to the game, he just throws a tantrum like a spoiled child when he hears negativity about himself. And so far, the news of that negativity has always been indirectly told to him by someone else, yet he never questions it as perhaps being game play by that third party, his ego gets hurt and he just goes off -- he doesn't question it as being possible game play because he's not playing the game himself, his head doesn't even seem to be in the game. He's pretty much invisible unless someone tells him that somebody else said something insulting about him and then he goes bananas. What a tool.

[fishcakes]

I'm wondering...while many people feel that Will should apologize to Shirin, should he really?

I mean, putting aside the fact that most people don't speak to other people that way, if he absolutely meant what he said when he was saying it, why would he apologize?

I think an insincere "I'm only saying I'm sorry because you took offense to what I said" apology is worse than not saying anything at all.

 

Ideally, he should feel remorse and should apologize, but I doubt he has in it him. I don't think he should apologize if he doesn't mean it. Much better for him to stick by his assy behavior so the world can see him for what he is.

 

 

I'm not a religious person, but I respect people's religion.  Shirin's ridicule of Will's religious beliefs, even though she may have been right... is a clear personal attack.

 

She didn't ridicule his religious beliefs. She pointed out his hypocrisy in claiming to be a man of God, yet being the kind of person who would browbeat and abuse another person. If anything, this shows me she respects his religious beliefs more than he does.

[momlyd]

She didn't ridicule his religious beliefs. She pointed out his hypocrisy in claiming to be a man of God, yet being the kind of person who would browbeat and abuse another person. If anything, this shows me she respects his religious beliefs more than he does.

You beat me to it. I was going to say that she was reminding him of his professed faith, so I don't see how that is an attack. He wasn't acting very Christlike, imo.

[Special K]

You beat me to it. I was going to say that she was reminding him of his professed faith, so I don't see how that is an attack. He wasn't acting very Christlike, imo.

 

Right.  To contrast, earlier in the season, Lindsey DID ridicule Mike's religious beliefs by suggesting that God could/would come down and build the fire or some such.  That's how you ridicule someone's beliefs.

[kikaha]

Tyler may be playing it smarter than almost anyone out there.  He doesn't appear to be on any hit lists.  He doesn't seem to have any big enemies.  He's well connected to the majority alliance... seems great at ferreting out info... and then quietly spreading it around where it does him the most good. 

 

Shirin, Mike and Jenn were foolish IMO to accuse Will.  But Tyler was smart to bring that info to Will's attention: it was almost sure to build a bigger wedge between them.  How is Tyler responsible for what Will does with that info?  What should he apologize for? 

 

Yes, he's sneaky.  A quality shared by basically everyone who has won this game.  But I think he's keeping his hands pretty clean in the jurors' eyes.  If he gets to FTC, bet he makes a damn good presentation for himself.  

[Guest]

She didn't ridicule his religious beliefs. She pointed out his hypocrisy in claiming to be a man of God, yet being the kind of person who would browbeat and abuse another person. If anything, this shows me she respects his religious beliefs more than he does.

That we saw.  In that clip, Sierra says she was instigating him beforehand and religious type remarks were part of that.  So who knows what she ridiculed.  

[Sentient Meat]

Shirin stood over Will while he was sitting in his chair, and said "Because he's a man of God, and he prays before every meal"... completely sarcastic.

 

Now, as I said before... Will is an ass and deserves the shit he got... but Shirin isn't a weak helpless person.

 

The reason I earlier brought up the irrelevance of Will's size is because in Survivor... a female or nerdy male is twice as more likely to win than a large male.  I think the reason Survivor has lasted for 30 seasons is because it is one of the rare times in life you will see the underdog win in a high profile contest.  In the real world, Will has the power and the physical intimidation that his size would bring, but in Survivor where strength is neutralized... Shirin's passive aggressive digs have way more power.

People fell in love with Survivor because a gay male like Hatch, or a middle aged woman like Tina could beat the alpha bullies.

 

Will's was completely out of line with the personal attacks but I wish people would quit treating Shirin with these old paradigm kid gloves damsel in distress modes of thinking.

 

Shirin was pushing buttons too... and most of the time she looked composed during the fight.

 

Women are the equal of men, and unless the man is raising his hand... they should be able to take the same verbal shots even if they don't deserve them.

 

This is coming from a man who wants to see Elizabeth Warren become our president.  But I wouldn't want her to become president if she couldn't handle idiots making undeserved verbal attacks.

[ProfCrash]

There was also a secret scene where Shirin says she was happy that Will was sent home from the auction because it was karmaic payback for how poorly he had been treating her. Based on exit interviews from Kelly, Joaquin, Hali, Jenn, and Joe and talking heads across the entire season, Shirin is not well liked. Hali, Jenn, and Joe have said in their final interviews that they don't know why Shirin was so disliked. Jenn did make a comment about Shirin being too talkative and annoying in her talking heads but seems fine with Shirin these last bunch of episodes.

 

I think it is safe to assume that Shirin and Will have had a few dust ups that we have not seen before this one. I have no doubt that Shirin poked at Will, just like she did with Joaquin. She was pretty up front in asking Joaquin what his problem was with her and willing to poke him. You saw her doing kind of the same thing in the Dan conversation. She seems comfortable listening to people complain about her, pretty stoic actually. Heck, she was engaging Dan. Dan's lack of social skills were pretty much on display as he kept ripping into her game play, his awful comments were made in a talking head.

 

So I don't doubt that Shirin said some crap to Will, she has not really been a full on sit there and take it. I have no doubt that she made some comments about his Christian behavior because he sure as heck was not acting very much like a Christian that I recognize during that exchange. Calling someone out when their behavior contradicts their words is fair game. For example, I called Carolyn a smug bitch on a board when I was railing against Dan's treatment of Shirin. Someone called me out on it. I edited my post and apologized for my poor choice of words. If what we saw was the second, third, or fourth time that Will went after Shirin along those personal lines, I have no problem with her calling out his Christian behavior because he was not acting in a manner that Christ would condone.

 

Shirin had a choice to walk away, sit there and take it, or respond. Why should she have to make that choice? Will could have called Shirin, MIke, and Jenn out for the lie and been done with it. Based on Jenn's interview, he went off on Mike as well and pulled Jenn aside to say that they were cool, that he liked her, and no worries. So, yeah Will knew he had a variety of options on how to handle things and he went ballistic.

[Special K]

That clip of Sierra is so milquetoast and noncommittal, relative to the actual incident, that I'm kind of meh on it.

 

OTOH, if what she said is true, that it was an equally vile exchange between Will and Shirin -- well that sure says A LOT about how they edited Shirin as an underdog and a sympathetic figure, and (dun dun dun)...I wonder why that would be?

 

<knowing side-eye>

Edited April 24, 2015 by Special K

[Andromeda]

There are different kinds of intelligence, and the fact that Shirin probably does pretty well on IQ tests and obviously has parlayed her skills into a successful career that suits her does not in any way mean she therefore has a built-in verbal advantage over someone in an emotionally charged argument.  I'm pretty smart too and all my verbal skills which I can use to craft clever Facebook posts or chat with my friends (or do my job well when I was in the working world) would go right out the window if someone attacked me like that.  I would not be able to access those skills I have on paper, and I'd fall apart way worse than Shirin would.  And I don't even have as painful a background as Shirin had.

 

Exactly. The idea that Shirin was more capable of defending herself because she's smart is absolutely ridiculous. There's a reason we all are familiar with the cultural stereotype of the brilliant but socially awkward nerds being bullied by the "popular" kids. There's a successful sitcom built around nerds like that on this very same network.

Shirin wasn't in physical danger and she could've walked away herself at any time.  She sat there listening as though she was fine with his lecture.  She wasn't even crying or asking him to stop.

Sometimes when you're being browbeat and an entire group is standing around, apparently condoning it, you feel like you'll appear weak or cowardly or "prove them right" if you leave. Bullies usually respond by either pursuing their victims or yelling after them to come back and face them. And the tears came later, at Tribal, when the damn burst.

 

ETA: Jenn in this interview mentions Shirin sobbing to her about it 20 minutes later.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Andromeda

[panthergirl13]

 Dan is what happens if Norm & Cliff have a baby. 

Marry me.

[Cutty]

I don't think Tyler has a chance to win the game. He's had the most invisible edit of the season. Probst said the winner would be iconic. If he's talking about Tyler then it might be time to put ol' Jeffy in a home.

[fishcakes]

That we saw.  In that clip, Sierra says she was instigating him beforehand and religious type remarks were part of that.  So who knows what she ridiculed.

 

That's not at all what Sierra said in that clip. She said that Shirin was in camp talking about how Will had hidden food from the auction, so she and Rodney told Will and then Will went off on Shirin, making personal remarks. Mike told Shirin to walk away and she started to, but then she turned around yelling at him and said, "you're a man of God." She doesn't say that Shirin was talking about -- much less ridiculing -- his religion or anything else beforehand.

 

Not that I would put any stock in what Sierra says anyway. She says it's "crazy" for Shirin to have accused Will of lying about the food he got in the auction, when in the very first episode, Sierra was claiming that Mike and Dan were lying about which bag of beans they chose. This tribe has clearly already decided that everything Shirin does is wrong, even if what she's doing is exactly what everyone else, including themselves, has been doing for 30 seasons.

Edited April 24, 2015 by fishcakes

[iMonrey]

 

Mike, Jenn and Shirin did worse than casually speculate... they undermined Will's game play by telling the others in a group setting that he must have kept the good stuff for himself without any evidence and tried to ruin what was otherwise a generous gesture.

 

Do you mean the same way Mike "undermined" Joe's game play by telling everyone Joe found the hidden immunity idol, a blatant lie, when he hadn't? So you think Joe would have been justified in bawling out Mike with a bunch of personal attacks on his character and lack of friends back home?

 

Honestly, trying to defend Will's behavior is baffling to me. Going around telling other players so-and-so might have done such-and-such may be "undermining" that person's game play, but so the hell what? That happens every single season. And blowing up in response to it is one thing but then to make it personal and start yelling at that person they have no friends, nobody likes them, nobody back home misses them? That's indefensible.

 

What's even worse was for Will to sit there and defend his attack at Tribal by saying "I didn't make it personal" while agreeing that he did in fact say everything Shirin accused him of saying. He doesn't even understand what "personal" means. Apparently, he think it's OK to tell someone they're fat, or ugly, so long as they really are fat or ugly. Jeepers. This guy is a total creep.

 

 

Will was wrong to abuse Shirin, but she was wrong to speculate

 

What? It's wrong - in Survivor - to speculate someone may have done something shady? Seriously?

Edited April 24, 2015 by iMonrey

[ElleryAnne]

Probst said the winner would be iconic.

 

 

Wow, really?  I can't see any of these people as being an iconic winner.  I'm not sure most of them are even memorable as players. 

[Guest]

That's not at all what Sierra said in that clip. She said that Shirin was in camp talking about how Will had hidden food from the auction, so she and Rodney told Will and then Will went off on Shirin, making personal remarks. Mike told Shirin to walk away and she started to, but then she turned around yelling at him and said, "you're a man of God." She doesn't say that Shirin was talking about -- much less ridiculing -- his religion or anything else beforehand.

 

Not that I would put any stock in what Sierra says anyway. She says it's "crazy" for Shirin to have accused Will of lying about the food he got in the auction, when in the very first episode, Sierra was claiming that Mike and Dan were lying about which bag of beans they chose. This tribe has clearly already decided that everything Shirin does is wrong, even if what she's doing is exactly what everyone else, including themselves, has been doing for 30 seasons.

Yeah, you're right, I heard it wrong.  I still doubt she's as innocent as the edit made her look.  And I agree it wasn't crazy to suspect he hadn't shared all the food.  

[pamplemousse]

Shirin is totally the scapegoat of this season. The only reason I can remember Will giving for hating Shirin so much was in a talking head when he said she talked too damned much and it was driving him batty. I'm convinced that an attention whore narcissist like Will is salty as hell that there's someone else in camp who's an attention whore too, I get the impression that Will thinks he has amazing social game and probably is constantly running his mouth making his oh-so-witty jokes so to have to live with someone who talks as much as he does or even more...I think he's salty as hell that he has to compete with Try Hard Shirin for attention and talk time (especially with all the other narcissists there like Appalling Rodney, Entitled Carolyn, Whiny-ass Hypocrite Sierra, and Dipshit Dan sucking up the oxygen to fill their lungs so they can spout their pointless annoying B.S.).

[enlightenedbum]

Wow, really?  I can't see any of these people as being an iconic winner.  I'm not sure most of them are even memorable as players. 

Maybe someone dethrones Morasca (right?) as least appealing player to win the game.  That would be iconic.

[Special K]

He doesn't even understand what "personal" means. Apparently, he think it's OK to tell someone they're fat, or ugly, so long as they really are fat or ugly.

 

Actually it's even worse reasoning than that:  he thinks it's OK to say someone is fat or ugly so long as Will himself thinks they're fat or ugly.

[Sampson]

What is really baffling to me is that Will (according to his twitter feed) is proud of his behavior in last night's episode.

[Whimsy]

Just a friendly mod note, we've given a tons of leeway this episode but as a reminder let's keep things civil, on topic and respectful. I don't want this to derail too much into talks about religion, mental illness, stuff that's hasn't happened this episode or argumentative statements.

Thanks and happy posting.

[ghoulina]

I just listened to Jenn's exit interview with Cesternino. She said Will came up to her after his blowup and said he had no problem with her and that they were good, and claims they are on good terms post show. But she still doesn't know what his problem is with Shirin and why he has never apologized.

 

See, that makes me even more disgusted with Will. Jenn was one of those who was questioning his transparency with the food, but he's totally cool with her and had to berate Shirin for being a soulless, friendless loser? WTF? I feel like we're either missing out on way too much of the actual interactions, or these are just the most vile people on the planet. 

 

Shirin is totally the scapegoat of this season. The only reason I can remember Will giving for hating Shirin so much was in a talking head when he said she talked too damned much and it was driving him batty.

 

We've seen quite a few people complain about Shirin, but so far all we've seen is her chatting a bit too much and not wearing pants. Based on that, I cannot really understand the extreme ire some of the other players have for her. If the editors are deliberately leaving out a bunch of offensive behavior from Shirin, shame on them. But I can only go on what I see. And, sadly, even some grown people get into that cliquish, mob-mentality type of behavior and gang up on someone who hasn't really done anything wrong. 

[hyukx3]

Shirin stood over Will while he was sitting in his chair, and said "Because he's a man of God, and he prays before every meal"... completely sarcastic.

 

Now, as I said before... Will is an ass and deserves the shit he got... but Shirin isn't a weak helpless person.

Shirin was pushing buttons too... and most of the time she looked composed during the fight.

Shirin was not composed. She was only acting. She was nibbling at light speed on something like a chipmunk. That's shows that her heart rate increased, she was nervous. And as Will kept attacking, you wanna blame Shirin for lashing out with the god thing? It's a normal reaction to lash out if you're under a constant barrage. What you said when you're lashing out is irrelevant. It's why you lashing out is the important point/.

 

And I'm in no mood to like sympathize SM over all this perceived bullying here on this thread. Not after some very choiced words in describing Mike, Jenn, and Shirin. They lesser abused Will. lol, right.

Edited April 24, 2015 by hyukx3

[JudyObscure]

What is really baffling to me is that Will (according to his twitter feed) is proud of his behavior in last night's episode.

You could see that coming at tribal when Shirin was repeating all the nasty things he was saying to her and he was nodding proudly and saying, "It's the truth." I expect Will remains confident that God appreciates him, "Calling out ugly," and I expect Will's wife is saying she's proud of him for speaking up and defending himself after, Shirin spread lies about him. The people at his church are probably saying how proud they are of him.

On that same theme Rodney will probably go to his grave thinking, "Mike almost kept us from getting our love letters!" although his decision at the auction was all about getting an advantage at getting the advantage and had nothing to do with those letters. Rodney jumping around punching the air and frothing at the mouth while he shouted viciously about, "Love lettahs from our loved ones," was actually kind of hilarious.

Sadly, I don't think very many people go home, watch themselves on TV, and feel the shame we expect them to feel. More's the pity.