S05.E02: The House Of Black And White

[Hecate7]

Hmm, can a woman / girl get divorced in Westeros and remarried ? Cersei was a widow before the arranged marriage to Loras so her case was different

 

No. But Sansa isn't Sansa Stark. She would probably be marrying whoever it is, as Alayne Stone, Baelish's niece, not as herself. Too bad for whoever her fake husband is, but it allows her to have it both ways: live as Alayne until the coast is clear and/or the marriage to Tyrion is annulled, and then declare her true identity once all danger is past.

 

And actually, whomever her husband turns out to be, will probably see "hey, I was Sansa Stark all along, now let's do it with the right name on the papers" as an upgrade, should Sansa decide to do that. Otherwise it's going to be, "thanks for being my fake husband. I'm not really Sansa, so we're not really married. Sorry about that. Cya!"

Edited April 20, 2015 by Hecate7

[cambridgeguy]

 

Snow's rejection of Stannis's offer was just as frustrating - both will not make advantageous descions because of their moral code, and we know that on GoT all men with codes end up dead sooner or later.

There's a little more to it than that with Jon, although who knows if that was running through his mind.  A king (or queen) can legitimize a bastard but the North already decided that Stannis was no king to them.  His decree therefore wouldn't mean anything, especially since the string attached is that the North agrees to follow Stannis.  Heck, they may not think much of Ramsay now being an official Bolton even though they've surrendered.  Now if Robb had made the decree then things would be different.

 

Of course, while Jon doesn't know it Rickon is still around.  Shouldn't he have made it to House Umber by now?   

[SimoneS]

Like I said last week, I think  Daenerys will be fine when Tyrion and Varys join her inner circle. IMO, Daenerys' mistake was not executing the guy, it was being so damn careless with her dragons. If they were flying above her during that execution, not one of those stones would have been thrown or not one person would have hissed. Daenerys needs to learn that her conquered subjects should fear her first, and then respect will come.

 

As for Jon Snow, he might as well stay at the wall. He is the best chance that they have to hold it until Daenerys shows up with her army and hopefully, dragons.

 

Alexander Siddig has aged, but I look forward to some good performances from him. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by SimoneS

[Fen]

There's a little more to it than that with Jon, although who knows if that was running through his mind.  A king (or queen) can legitimize a bastard but the North already decided that Stannis was no king to them.  His decree therefore wouldn't mean anything, especially since the string attached is that the North agrees to follow Stannis.  Heck, they may not think much of Ramsay now being an official Bolton even though they've surrendered.  Now if Robb had made the decree then things would be different.

 

I dunno, though.  In an ideal world, yes - they'd want Robb.  However, the fact that Stannis is willing to give them a Stark in Winterfell would maybe make many of them pause for thought.  Not only that, but he came to the defence of The Wall.

[DarkRaichu]

I dunno, though.  In an ideal world, yes - they'd want Robb.  However, the fact that Stannis is willing to give them a Stark in Winterfell would maybe make many of them pause for thought.  Not only that, but he came to the defence of The Wall.

Speaking of the North, who are left there ? Bolton killed most northern nobility in Red Wedding.  Whatever army he had left was so small he could not attack Winterfell head on when it was occupied by the Greyjoys.  His main backing was Tywin Lannister who was dead.  

I can see Stannis plan working depending on how many northern houses left with bad blood against the Boltons

Edited April 20, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[annsterg]

Hmm, can a woman / girl get divorced in Westeros and remarried ? Cersei was a widow before the arranged marriage to Loras so her case was different

 

and technically, Sansa is still married to Tyrion, which kind of puts a damper on any plans to marry her (as Sansa Stark, that is).

[WicketyWack]

Hmm, can a woman / girl get divorced in Westeros and remarried ? Cersei was a widow before the arranged marriage to Loras so her case was different

Sansa was vocal about never consummating her marriage to Tyrion so I wonder if that creates a loophole. Knowing Littlefinger, he will create one even if it doesn't.

[WicketyWack]

So now we know that greyscale eventually spreads to the brain. Poor Gilly's sisters. I hope we find out who cured Shireen and how. If it was a Lord of Light thing, that might explain Mom's batshit religious fervor.

[izabella]

Does the Night's Watch and Stannis know that Tywin is dead at this point?  I don't remember it being mentioned, but I may have missed it.

So now we know that greyscale eventually spreads to the brain. Poor Gilly's sisters. I hope we find out who cured Shireen and how. If it was a Lord of Light thing, that might explain Mom's batshit religious fervor.

 

I'm very curious about that, too.  Considering what happened when Dany tried to save Drogo's life, I have to believe that there was some price to pay for Shireen's life.

[The Mormegil]

Does the Night's Watch and Stannis know that Tywin is dead at this point?  I don't remember it being mentioned, but I may have missed it.

 

 

Stannis mentions it when he talked with Jon at the top of the Wall in Ep1.

[Muffyn]

Dany's decision to go by the book made me think that maybe she and Stannis would get along.

Well, he does like women who light things on fire and Dany has three dragons. 

[wayne67]

Well, he does like women who light things on fire and Dany has three dragons. 

 

Well technically Dany has 2 dragons chained in the basement and a third AWOL.

 

I do wonder if Dany would support Stannis and his God of Light (who seems to be more about fire and shadows) or Arya's true God of Death.

 

Dany does tend to bring fire and death in her wake.

[Hecate7]

So now we know that greyscale eventually spreads to the brain. Poor Gilly's sisters. I hope we find out who cured Shireen and how. If it was a Lord of Light thing, that might explain Mom's batshit religious fervor.

 

It spreads to the brain if you are an adult. Apparently if you're a child, it's not nearly as dangerous--it's only incurable in adults.

[Lady S.]

Dany's decision to go by the book made me think that maybe she and Stannis would get along.

 

Stannis said his word is law and then offered Jon a reward instead of a punishment. And as much as I don't lament that fool Renly's murder, death by black magic in the night is anything but just, and he was quick enough to forgive the Stormlords supporting Renly's usurpation when they went over to him. And Mance was a Night's Watch oathbreaker (a crime Ned never forgave) as well as an enemy king, yet Stannis was willing to forgive him in exchange for fealty. Now he wants Jon to break his sacred oath as well. Davos may somehow think Stannis is honorable but the man himself has never claimed to be. His simultaneous rewarding and punishing of the Onion Knight is the only example of true by-the-book Stannis justice that I can think of. Really, he's an ends-justify-the-means pragmatist (epitomized by considering sacrificing his newfound nephew because he somehow thought it would bring peace to the rest of his subjects) who sometimes has a weird idea of pragmatism, since he thinks fear is the best way to gain followers, and that value on fear is actually something Cersei would agree with. (The difference being I think Stannis thinks fear is his only option because he never learned his brothers' gift of charm. Cersei just doesn't care about anyone but herself and her children, and sometimes Jaime, before he started choosing Tyrion's side too much for her liking.)

 

I'm not sure I understand your question. Tyrion has never been a member of the Night's Watch. He just went to the Wall early on to visit. 

 

The show hasn't been explicit as to what happened in Tyrion's latest trial by combat. Both his champion and the Crown's died. I assume that means that a tie goes to the Crown.

You must have forgotten the update on the Mountain in the finale, Qyburn is keeping him alive in some weird Frankenstein experiment. 

 

Tyrion going to the Night's Watch was only a plan of Tywin and Jaime's, dependent on his confessing and begging for mercy. Tyrion rejected that option for trial-by-combat. He's no more a deserter than Hot Pie or any of Yoren's other last recruits who never made to the Wall to actually swear the oath.

 

As for the Mad King, was he any worse than Joffrey?  It's not the blood that makes them mad, it is the position.

Probably depends on who you ask. I think the Mad King ordered the deaths of more people, but then Good King Joffrey only got to enjoy a couple years on the throne and never held full power except at Ned's surprise execution, so he had less opportunity to have his enemies killed. Grandpa wouldn't even let him have Robb Stark's head as a plaything! I think Joff's kingslayer uncle-daddy probably saw him as a bad king but not as dangerous as Aerys, and I don't think he was

blinded by paternal bias, Tywin used to be the Mad King's right hand man but seemed to believe his grandson could still be handled. How dangerous he'd be after coming into his majority with the power to fire or overrule Tywin is a mystery we'll never get to solve.

 

OK maybe I'm terribly naive about this show, STILL, but I am not that suspicious of Hiz (? or whoever that guy's name is) intentions, mostlyb ecause I thought the purpose of his character was to shatter Dany's illusions about how "bad" all the slavers are and how "innocent" all the slaves are. (Yo, not saying slavery is good, just that there are good and bad on every side in every war - hey didn't somebody say that once?)

Yeah, the someone who once sold men into slavery and compared himself to the Yunkish Masters, but I see a big difference between selling poachers out of financial desperation and living your whole life off the backs of humans you consider property. Disapproving of crucifying children isn't a sign of good, just that not all are equally evil. Disapproving of slavery period and recognizing the freemen as human beings would be good. There's good and bad in Westeros, but none willing to work with someone who crucified their father unjustly. It makes no sense for a slaver to be more forgiving than the Dornish, our most progressive Westerosi. This isn't like Houses Baratheon and Tyrell making nice after the siege of Storm's End, the only real Westerosi parallel is the ironborn, still clinging to their own awful way of life 300 years after first being conquered by dragons. 300 years. I don't wish to compliment Balon Greyjoy, but I see no reason to think the Meereeneese are more reasonable than he and his people are. Intentionally pissing Dany off with crucifix mile markers after what she did in Astapor was insanely unreasonable, and her eye-for-an-eye response only gives them more reason to hate and defy her. No offense, but the freedmen still look pretty damn innocent to me since the murdered guy was no innocent prisoner like the kids Lord Karstark killed. We all want more layered villains for Dany, I'm sure, that's been my main complaint since s2, but saying not all slavers crucify children is not much of a shade of grey to me.

 

The good and bad on both sides in the US Civil War came from Confederates who didn't own slaves and fought according to their state and Unionists who didn't support emancipation and fought according to their region, but between the actual slaves and slave owners, the distinction is pretty black and white to me, and I live in Texas and have at least one slave-owner ancestor. In this case, it's even clearer with a much higher percentage of enslaved people, and I think the rights of the majority of the population oppressed and de-humanized for generations should outweigh the rights of the militant minority who'd prefer to see them back in chains. One law for everyone actually favors the masters still in power in their pyramids by pretending everyone is already equal. Until Hizdahr or his friends express a recognition of the freedmen's rights not just to not be crucified, but to live free as citizens, then I don't see what his input is worth or why he should want to help Dany build a new world order where his privilege is destroyed.

ETA:

There's a little more to it than that with Jon, although who knows if that was running through his mind.  A king (or queen) can legitimize a bastard but the North already decided that Stannis was no king to them.  His decree therefore wouldn't mean anything, especially since the string attached is that the North agrees to follow Stannis.  Heck, they may not think much of Ramsay now being an official Bolton even though they've surrendered.  Now if Robb had made the decree then things would be different.

 

Of course, while Jon doesn't know it Rickon is still around.  Shouldn't he have made it to House Umber by now?

That's assuming the North really cares as much about Ned Stark's last son being bastardborn anymore, and I don't think they would when there are no other Starks and the guys occupying Winterfell are Stark traitors and murderers. These are pretty desperate times to care about technicalities on pieces of paper. I'm sure they do still consider Ramsay a bastard but that probably has more to do with Roose's treachery forcing them to surrender to the Lannisters. Stannis doesn't mean anything to them now because he's just a stranger demanding they fight for him after they were already recovering from fighting for Robb, if he offers them something in return like Robb's half-brother to replace Robb's murderer, they might reconsider whether he's a king to them. As is they probably assume he means to plant one of his own southron knights in Winterfell if he takes it, but if Jon takes Winterfell and Stannis leaves them alone after taking the Iron Throne, they could live as close to the quasi-independence they enjoyed under Ned and Robert as possible.

 

I confess to forgetting about that feral walnut destroyer, Rickon, but he is still a child which is hardly the best option during wartime. If he is at the Last Hearth, he'd be a ready-made Umber puppet at best. The other Houses may prefer the leadership of an adult Stark to rule as Lord or regent for Rickon. Jon knows Bran is still alive so it's not a huge leap to think Rickon is out there somewhere too. I wish his and Sam's convo could have been in private before the election, so Jon could say he wants Winterfell to still be available to his brothers or even his fugitive sister or that his answer might be different if Robb was the king making the offer, to frame the conflict in regards to family loyalty and not just loyalty to his oath, since he wouldn't want to feel he was stealing any of siblings' birthrights. I imagine Sansa would feel the same way if she knew Bran and Rickon were still alive, since she is heiress presumptive only under the false presumption of their deaths.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Lady S.

[Dobian]

Now, Garak would shine in Game of Thrones.

 

 

Oh he would make a *fantastic* Lannister.

[Oscirus]

As for the Mad King, was he any worse than Joffrey?  It's not the blood that makes them mad, it is the position.

 

Joffrey wasn't about to set the whole kingdom ablaze with wildfire ( though who knows what Cersei was planning to do with that stuff)and at least Tywin and Tyrion were able to keep him in check.

[TrininisaScorp]

Excellent "drop the mike" moments this week!  Uncle Kevan telling Cersei off was almost better than chocolate cake.  Sam outing Slynt for the coward he is was delicious.  Brianne showing up and showing out (and saving Pod) kicked ass.

 

I think I could watch an hour of Varys and Tyrion being existential and philosophical all day.

 

Jamie and Bronn should be good fun.  In previous seasons, Nickolai did nothing for me, but he was looking quite "hello, Ser" tonight. 

 

Jaquen!  I missed him and am happy to see him back.  He and Arya have interesting mentor/mentee chemistry that I assume we get to explore.

 

Dany.  Girl.  I know most of her storyline is her learning how to rule, but, man, that was a cluster.  Now NO ONE is on your side.  I did love seeing in her moment of loneliness, Drogon found his way back to her, only to leave again.   I also enjoyed the stories about the Mad King; good cautionary tale. 

[CletusMusashi]

So what the hell is Qyburn using the dwarf head for?

Gregor's hands are still weak, and he needs heads to crush for exercise?

Pieces of skull are going to be implanted all over Gregor's body. as subcutaneous armor?

Qyburn is planning to moonlight as a ventriloquist?

Or, and please let it be this one... Gregor's brain was damaged by the poison, so the dwarf head is going to be reanimated and attached on top of it, to provide a human brain to give the subhuman brain directions. Just like Master Blaster.

[paigow]

So what the hell is Qyburn using the dwarf head for?

Maybe he heard what happened to old Lord Commander Mormont - and wanted a skull goblet for himself.

[CletusMusashi]

Qyburn is increasingly becoming one of the back-characters I'm most curious about. What is he doing with The Mountain? What does his laboratory look like? Are there steampunk goggles involved? I kind of hate steampunk, but I do feel that Qyburn should have the goggles.

I also feel like we're missing out on some great stuff with Margaery and Tommen. The whole time Cersei was pulling her coupe in the council chamber, they were probably having a tea party with Ser Pounce. And... quite possibly the Mountain, depending on how Qyburn's experiments are progressing.

Rickon is useless, but I would tolerate him just to see Osha and Shaggydog again. Bran can stay missing as long as he wants, though.

And Ser Jorah? I feel like somewhere in the deserts of Essos, there's a very tired man, pushing aside hundreds and hundreds of empty whisky bottle... yelling "Come on, buddy, you've been here for two months! I need to mop this bar up and go home!"

Edited April 22, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[La Dee Da]

A lot of scene setting in this one - really a premiere part two, like last year.  Did they film the Dorne scene in Seville?  I'm pretty sure I've been in those gardens - it's a beautiful corner of the world.

 

Dany's difficult position made me think of Varys' criteria for a good ruler in episode one - keeping the Lords in line and having the love of the people.  What you think is just may not be seen as right by your people - Doran echoed that in his scene, I think. 

 

2. Sam, Gilly, and Shireen need more scenes together. Also, loved Sam's speech. Especially him scoring points on Slynt!

 

My first thought: I love you, Sam.  My second: don't die, Sam!  I worry the most about him and Shireen "please forget I have royal blood, Melisandre?" Baratheon. 

 

Sidenote, what the hey with LF's "offer of marriage" ??? I can't even think of any marriagable pawns that might be left floating around.

 

I'm curious who he's offered.  It could be Sansa (as Sansa, I think, to get a powerful alliance as long as the marriage to Tyrion was voidable) but I also wondered if it was Robin or maybe even himself.  And the question of to whom, of course! 

 

[terrymct]

Stannis actually shows way more flexibility and ingenuity than Dany.  Jon Snow directly contradicted the King's will?  Stannis respects his courage and wants to legitimise him and make him the Stark in Winterfell.  The Wildings are deadly foes to Westeros?  Absorb them into the country and give them land.  He respects the law, but he's also a pragmatist.  It's something that helps differentiate him from the rigidly honourable Ned, for me.

 

One of Stannis' major problems, however, is that he has monumentally bad taste in women.

[darkestboy]

I actually preferred this episode to the opening one.

Arya's scenes at the house of black/white/Braavos are great. Nice we got to see a certain someone from the second season again.

Sansa rejecting Brienne's help. Poor Brienne but maybe Podrick has a point.

Love Tyrion but haven't enjoyed him these last two episodes. Still the snarky banter with him and Varys is amusing though.

Cersei continues to show why she doesn't deserve power in the slightest. Liked Kevan taking her down a peg or two.

Ellaria went from having no personality last season to developing an annoying one this season. Why should Myrcella be mutilated because Oberyn died? At least Doran had more sense than her. Dorne looks lovely though.

Dany was caught between a rock and hard place this week. The sooner she leaves Meereen, the better for her. Loved the last scene with her and Drogon though.

Jamie and Bronn have the makings of another fun double act. This show has really nailed the double acts over the last few seasons I think.

The wall stuff was alright. Still couldn't care less about Stannis's rule, loathe Selyse but Shireen teaching Gilly to read and Jon getting some power was nice though, 9/10
 

[Drogo]

Maybe he heard what happened to old Lord Commander Mormont - and wanted a skull goblet for himself.

 

This one would be more a shot glass, no?

[Meredith Quill]

Qyburn is increasingly becoming one of the back-characters I'm most curious about. What is he doing with The Mountain? What does his laboratory look like? Are there steampunk goggles involved? I kind of hate steampunk, but I do feel that Qyburn should have the goggles.

 

This made me LOL. :D

[paigow]

Gregor's brain was damaged by the poison, so the dwarf head is going to be reanimated and attached on top of it, to provide a human brain to give the subhuman brain directions. Just like Master Blaster.

Then even Podrick could kill him [them], provided there is a big direwolf whistle lying around.....

[paigow]

And Ser Jorah? I feel like somewhere in the deserts of Essos, there's a very tired man, pushing aside hundreds and hundreds of empty whisky bottles,. yelling "Come on, buddy, you've been here for two months! I need to mop this bar up and go home!"

Must have been a generous severance package....

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I think the Freys still have her uncle Edmure chained up somewhere and her great-uncle Blackfish is still taking the longest piss ever and no one has seen him since.

 

I had forgotten about poor Edmure. Shedding a tear for him now :(

 

 

The show hasn't been explicit as to what happened in Tyrion's latest trial by combat. Both his champion and the Crown's died. I assume that means that a tie goes to the Crown.

 

I'm not sure the Mountain is, uh, entirely dead. Mostly dead maybe...

 

 

I'm scared to death that Littlefinger is going to try to marry Sansa off to the Boltons. I do. not. want. Sansa anywhere near those psychos.

 

Oh thanks for the nightmare fuel, with Ramsay being legitimized, that is only too possible now.  I still think LF wants her for himself though... ultimately.

 

 

When the Mad King's ex-Hand gave Dany a much deserved talking to about the dangers of being idealistic to a fault, Dany seemed surprised to hear the connections the Hand was drawing.

 

Selmy was head of the King's Guard, not Hand of the king to the Mad King (that was Tywin). I'm glad someone finally clued her in that her dad really was crazy though.

 

 

As for the Mad King, was he any worse than Joffrey?  It's not the blood that makes them mad, it is the position.

 

... or the inbreeding

 

 

Varys will pick up Jorah and will flat out tell Dany that she was never in any danger, but certain people in Westerous were interested in making sure Robert Baratheon's fears were pacified so that a real threat could not form.  I am assuming that Varys will have something HUGE up his sleeve to convince her that he at least might be telling the truth and that would lead to a mending of fences between her and Jorah.  Then they will have to convince her to trust Tyrion.

 

I hope, I hope, I hope.

 

 

I'm very curious about that, too.  Considering what happened when Dany tried to save Drogo's life, I have to believe that there was some price to pay for Shireen's life.

 

All the stillborn babies in jars back at Dragonstone? Course we don't know if that was before or after Shireen was born.

 

 

Yeah, the someone who once sold men into slavery and compared himself to the Yunkish Masters, but I see a big difference between selling poachers out of financial desperation and living your whole life off the backs of humans you consider property. Disapproving of crucifying children isn't a sign of good, just that not all are equally evil. Disapproving of slavery period and recognizing the freemen as human beings would be good.

 

(regarding Dany's "Master" adviser)  We don't really know what his personal feelings are on the subject so far - he was born into this society, maybe he didn' have the guts to shake things up but we don't know enough about him to know whether he actively supported it, whether he even engaged in slave trading or ownership, etc. I'm not saying slavery is "okay" but not everyone has the wherewithal to try to upheave an entire social order even if they personally feel it's not just. All we know is that his father maintained many of the great pyramids and protested the crucifixion of the children. He's so far never said he didn't think the freedmen were human beings either. Dany needs to listen to BOTH sides if she is ever going to knit the society back together again, so naturally she does need to have an adviser from both factions. Even without outright slavery going on she has a multitude of social issues to address, such as unfair/unbalanced living conditions, setting up a system wherein workers are actually paid a fair wage, etc.

[Constantinople]

I'm guessing Cersei isn't appointing a Hand of the King because she doesn't want to give up control or risk being outmaneuvered or overshadowed, as she was by Tyrion and Tywin.

 

But it gives you someone to blame if things go wrong.

 

People aren't likely to blame Tommen, so where else can the blame fall if things don't go well?

 

I wonder if Cersei's even thought of it, and if she has, if she even cares.

[mledawn]

I had forgotten about poor Edmure. Shedding a tear for him now :(

 

I'm looking forward to Edmure's return because... well... Tobias Menzies.

[hammaboo]

The best part of this episode (for me) was seeing Drogon.  I love how he was checking Dany out and was going to let her touch him and then, last second, NOPE. 

 

I hope we have a bit of an upswing.  I know it's only ep 2, but I'm finding myself bored.  I need more.... something.  Maybe it's the fact that many of the characters are traveling?  It's like they are on the same path, just in different locations, so it didn't feel like too much was going on?

[izabella]

I hope we have a bit of an upswing.  I know it's only ep 2, but I'm finding myself bored.  I need more.... something.  Maybe it's the fact that many of the characters are traveling?  It's like they are on the same path, just in different locations, so it didn't feel like too much was going on?

 

There's a LOT of traveling on this show.  5 seasons in and I don't see much plot movement, though.  Yeah, yeah, people have died, people have married, slaves have been freed.  Otherwise?  The overall plot is...what?  I'm not even sure.

[DarkRaichu]

There's a LOT of traveling on this show.  5 seasons in and I don't see much plot movement, though.  Yeah, yeah, people have died, people have married, slaves have been freed.  Otherwise?  The overall plot is...what?  I'm not even sure.

Winter is coming ;)

[paigow]

Are any Giants still alive? No prison can hold them...Or are they in CGI purgatory until the dragons disappear again?

[Constantinople]

I want to know how Gilly knows about ostriches.

[Happytobehere]

My fear with Dany, and it is no mystery, others have pointed it out basically as well, is that she favors decisions based on principle over what is practical. And for the most part, in the end, those that make those decisions in this show end up dead.

She did it again here. He committed a crime, does not matter who against, so he must die. And that provoked a riot and now the city that loved her is rebelling against her.

Also I found it interesting that she stated about the first person, the one who murdered the unsullied last week, "He will have a fair trial prior to being executed". In the end it did not matter, but its interesting wording. She did not say IF HE IS FOUND GUILTY he would be executed, just he would have a trial, then be executed, implying the outcome of the trial may not have mattered. Which is much the same as what Cersei did with Tyrion last season.

I especially loved the last part of your comment. Aside from Cercei apparently being a sociopath for all of her life, I have always thought Cercei and Dany are two sides of the same coin - entitled, demanding and nowhere near as smart as they think they are. Of all the horrid characters on this show, these are the two I most want to see get their comeuppance. But then again, I never forgave Dany for being stupid enough to believe the gypsy(?) woman wouldn't kill Khal, because really, a two-year old could have seen that coming, but of course Dany the not so great knew better than everyone else. Edited April 22, 2015 by Happytobehere

[DrSpaceman]

I especially loved the last part of your comment. Aside from Cercei apparently being a sociopath for all of her life, I have always thought Cercei and Dany are two sides of the same coin - entitled, demanding and nowhere near as smart as they think they are. Of all the horrid characters on this show, these are the two I most want to see get their comeuppance. Mobutu then again, I never forgave her for being stupid enough to believe the gypsy(?) woman wouldn't kill Khal, because really, a two-year old could have seen that coming, but of course Dany the not so great knew better than everyone else.

I went back and rewatched it again to make sure I heard it correct and her exact words are "I will not have the son of the (harpy?) executed without a fair trial". So I had the wording a bit off, but same idea. He gets a trial, then is executed, probably either way

But yes I had never thought about it before but Cersei and Dany are quite a bit alike. They are not as smart as they think, as you say. They are both twins with brothers than could have become king but either failed or turned it down. Both their fathers were rulers, in essence. Both married into power and then upon the death of their husband used their children to continue building their power. In Dany's case her "kids" are her dragons. And in both cases, the "kids" in question have rumors surrounding them. many believed their were no more dragons, now there are. Many believe (correctly) Cersei's kids are not the true heirs to the throne, which is one of the basic problems leading to all the fighting.

[Philbert]

 

One of Stannis' major problems, however, is that he has monumentally bad taste in women.

 

So, he's like every man who ever lived then :)

[justawatcher]

I have a couple of general comments and then a couple of spitballs.

 

First, this show/book (which I have not read) is really two stories - the one about the nasty bits north of the wall and how they are bad and the one about the power struggle and daily drama of the people not north of the wall. I do want to watch the Sopranos go to Camelot but could really care less about Transformers:Ice Age. At some point I know these two plots have to intersect but really? We're 5 seasons in and it's like the car is stuck in the mud and your drunk friends are calling out witty things from the sidelines but the wheels are still spinning- entertaining but going nowhere.

 

The big, major issue to me is that this show/book drags on with the most tedious minutiae and yet, God forbid, if the showrunners cut anything, deviate anything from the books, the book readers lose their mind. I remember distinctly back in Season 2 during Blackwater that a TV character made a factual statement concerning a piece of the King's Landing defense and a book reader lost their mind because the TV character said 200 and the book whatever was 400. If the writers are having to deal with these kind of intense, Comic Con attending fans, it makes sense in a way that they don't cut anything, but not cutting anything means that we are now 5 seasons in, at the start of Book 4, and still nowhere advanced plot-wise then we were earlier. Think about it- there is still a Lannister on the throne, there is still a Baratheon brother trying to get the throne, Dany is still whining about being the true heir. Five seasons in and I still have no idea what the long game is for anyone named Bolton, Greyjoy, Tyrell, Martell, and all the people we haven't met yet. They're all just sort of tossed in there waiting to be sorted out and ya'll? 5 seasons is a long time to wait to be sorted out. I'm getting bored with being bored. Time to pick up the pace.

 

I like that the writers have found a way to keep some fan favorites. Women around the world lost their collective mind when A Man changed his face. Good move bringing back the original. They had Khal Drogo reappear in a dream sequence. Seeing as Dany hasn't gotten remarried and Jason Momoa's career has been spotty at best since GoT, might be time for some more dreams.

 

Spitballs and questions: I think the little girl is going to teach Gilly to read and she's going to discover something written (note or raven) that will look poorly upon either the Red Witch or the Night's Watch. No one will believe her but it will be a thing. I think the Sand woman will try to kill the prince and pull a Cersei by putting one of Oberyn's daughters on the throne. Then again, they are purposely making this character look weak visually with the wheelchair and all but this being GoT, he's probably got some pretty nasty skills hidden away. I think Jon Snow will indeed become Jon Stark and his destiny is not on that wall.

[wayne67]

The big, major issue to me is that this show/book drags on with the most tedious minutiae and yet, God forbid, if the showrunners cut anything, deviate anything from the books, the book readers lose their mind. I remember distinctly back in Season 2 during Blackwater that a TV character made a factual statement concerning a piece of the King's Landing defense and a book reader lost their mind because the TV character said 200 and the book whatever was 400. If the writers are having to deal with these kind of intense, Comic Con attending fans, it makes sense in a way that they don't cut anything, but not cutting anything means that we are now 5 seasons in, at the start of Book 4, and still nowhere advanced plot-wise then we were earlier. Think about it- there is still a Lannister on the throne, there is still a Baratheon brother trying to get the throne, Dany is still whining about being the true heir. Five seasons in and I still have no idea what the long game is for anyone named Bolton, Greyjoy, Tyrell, Martell, and all the people we haven't met yet. They're all just sort of tossed in there waiting to be sorted out and ya'll? 5 seasons is a long time to wait to be sorted out. I'm getting bored with being bored. Time to pick up the pace.

 

I agree. It feels like a lot of time on the show is spent walking places or getting to places and half the time it doesn't really add much in the way of excitement.

There is often witty dialogue but as far as the plot goes... Nudity, gratuitous violence or sex scene and maybe a death or 3 of minor or major characters. Per episode, rinse and repeat.

 

It's why I find it hard to get into 'epic fantasy', there is so much emphasis on the boring details of their travels and lots of characters that contribute little to the overall plot.

 

Winter is super slow in coming. It's been 5 years and the White Walkers are still beyond the Wall doing whatever they're doing and Dany is still on another continent.

Pacing is slow. The ride is getting less enjoyable for me.

[terrymct]

I want to know how Gilly knows about ostriches.

 

Craster bought a set of encyclopedias from a white walker.

[CletusMusashi]

Or it's a term he used for very tall Crows.

[paigow]

Upper case O doesn't look like a bird, let alone an ostrich. Not sure how Gilly is making the connection....

[Constantinople]

I especially loved the last part of your comment. Aside from Cercei apparently being a sociopath for all of her life, I have always thought Cercei and Dany are two sides of the same coin - entitled, demanding and nowhere near as smart as they think they are. Of all the horrid characters on this show, these are the two I most want to see get their comeuppance. Mobutu then again, I never forgave her for being stupid enough to believe the gypsy(?) woman wouldn't kill Khal, because really, a two-year old could have seen that coming, but of course Dany the not so great knew better than everyone else.

 

 

I went back and rewatched it again to make sure I heard it correct and her exact words are "I will not have the son of the (harpy?) executed without a fair trial". So I had the wording a bit off, but same idea. He gets a trial, then is executed, probably either way

But yes I had never thought about it before but Cersei and Dany are quite a bit alike. They are not as smart as they think, as you say. They are both twins with brothers than could have become king but either failed or turned it down. Both their fathers were rulers, in essence. Both married into power and then upon the death of their husband used their children to continue building their power. In Dany's case her "kids" are her dragons. And in both cases, the "kids" in question have rumors surrounding them. many believed their were no more dragons, now there are. Many believe (correctly) Cersei's kids are not the true heirs to the throne, which is one of the basic problems leading to all the fighting.

There are some similarities between Daenerys and Cersei, but there are also key differences.

Though from privileged backgrounds, or at least well known families, both had guardians who were abusive to one degree or another (though I tend to think Tywin fell more on the strict and tedious disciplinarian side of things). Both have complained about being sold into marriage, or words to that effect -- although Cersei also told Robert to his face that she wanted to marry him -- and neither like being objectified by the men in their family or by society in general.

This sparked, or revealed, empathy in Daenerys. With Cersei, it either did nothing or accomplished the reverse.

Cersei never would have crucified the masters because Cersei never would have given a damn about the slave children crucified by the masters. Cersei never would have tried to free the slaves, nor tried to stop the Dothraki from raping women. Aside from herself, her children and perhaps Jaime, Cersei doesn't care about anyone else and is happy to see or inflict all manner of misfortune on them ("everyone who isn't us is an enemy").

[Fen]

One of Stannis' major problems, however, is that he has monumentally bad taste in women.

 

Aw - let's be fair to the man.  His marriage was most likely arranged, and arranged by his brother who didn't like him very much.  Then after goodness knows how long of a marriage consisting of a Basil and Sybil Fawlty level of dislike, Melly shows up, tells him he's the messiah, promises him a son, and strips. 

 

Qyburn is fascinating - I want to know what he's up to.

[The Mormegil]

Upper case O doesn't look like a bird, let alone an ostrich. Not sure how Gilly is making the connection....

 

Sam is talking about a former Lord Comander called Osric Stark, Gilly mishears and thinks he said Ostrich.

[Calamity Jane]

I agree. It feels like a lot of time on the show is spent walking places or getting to places and half the time it doesn't really add much in the way of excitement.

There is often witty dialogue but as far as the plot goes... Nudity, gratuitous violence or sex scene and maybe a death or 3 of minor or major characters. Per episode, rinse and repeat.

 

It's why I find it hard to get into 'epic fantasy', there is so much emphasis on the boring details of their travels and lots of characters that contribute little to the overall plot.

 

Winter is super slow in coming. It's been 5 years and the White Walkers are still beyond the Wall doing whatever they're doing and Dany is still on another continent.

Pacing is slow. The ride is getting less enjoyable for me.

At this point in a series of seven, by everything we're accustomed to in fiction, indeed by now the turning point should have been reached and the conflict clarified, the protagonist's downward or upward trajectory made clear, etc.  We just seem to keep climbing up that exposition mountain.  Are we even sure who the protagonist is?  Is there one?  I'm leaning towards Jon Snow with Daenerys as the fire to his ice, but who knows?  Maybe not even the author/s, although I'm told the story arc is supposed to be on paper somewhere.  Not really convinced.  Sometimes I truly worry that it's just another Lost miasma. 

[Artsda]

I so wanted Jon to accept Stannis's offer of becoming Jon Stark and the Lord of Winterfell. Take over for Rob and honor his brother and father. 

[SourK]

I might be alone in this, but I felt kind of bad for Cersei. They start that scene by reminding us that she can't be Hand of the King because she's a woman, and that's bullshit, even if she would do horrible, horrible things as the Hand. I actually hated Uncle Kevan for disrespecting her, and I'm worried for her that this is a sign that her tenuous hold on power is slipping. She's not a nice person, but it sucks that the only way she's ever been able to be in charge of anything is through manipulating people, because she's can't officially hold any of these titles or positions.

 

Someone said upthread that Dany reminded them of Stanis because she was so determined to do the right thing -- when she said "The law is the law" and got up in front of everyone to do something unpopular, with no thought to what might happen to her as result, she actually reminded me of Ned Stark. I seriously doubt she's going to get killed, though, so maybe this is a redemption story where she follows her conscience and it turns out well, to make up for what happened to Ned.

 

Prediction that is based on nothing but the pace of these two episodes: Varys and Tyrion don't actually meet up with Dany before the end of the season. They meet up with Jorah at some point and complications arise which delay the three of them until the finale. Maybe the complication is just that they have a really long conversation while they're drinking.

[DrSpaceman]

There are some similarities between Daenerys and Cersei, but there are also key differences.Though from privileged backgrounds, or at least well known families, both had guardians who were abusive to one degree or another (though I tend to think Tywin fell more on the strict and tedious disciplinarian side of things). Both have complained about being sold into marriage, or words to that effect -- although Cersei also told Robert to his face that she wanted to marry him -- and neither like being objectified by the men in their family or by society in general.This sparked, or revealed, empathy in Daenerys. With Cersei, it either did nothing or accomplished the reverse.Cersei never would have crucified the masters because Cersei never would have given a damn about the slave children crucified by the masters. Cersei never would have tried to free the slaves, nor tried to stop the Dothraki from raping women. Aside from herself, her children and perhaps Jaime, Cersei doesn't care about anyone else and is happy to see or inflict all manner of misfortune on them ("everyone who isn't us is an enemy").

All very true