S05.E02: The House Of Black And White

[Timetoread]

Except both of these crimes were against her personally.  Crimes again the sovereign ruler are almost ALWAYS punishable by death.  She liked the last guy but if she let it slide that would basically tell EVERYBODY that what she says doesn't matter if you want to do something else AND encourage bloodletting between the factions.  Trust me, there will be rioting no matter what choice she makes.

 

Also, if societies only stayed with what is "practical", my folks would still be working plantations.  To quote a movie "The time for freedom and justice is always right now!"  Is it tough to get over slavery?  Who cares.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Timetoread

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Dany's decision to go by the book made me think that maybe she and Stannis would get along.

[Constantinople]

It's too bad Daenerys can't exile people to the Night's Watch.

[WicketyWack]

I think it would have been legit for Dany to answer the crowd's call for mercy and pick a lesser punishment this time. These are former slaves who have never had the opportunity to abide by the law before, or even know how. It would make sense to use this as a lesson going forward. 

 

Anyway, glad to see Drogon back. I wonder if he's going to help spring his siblings from their dungeon prison.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I am still not sure what Tyrion has to offer Dany in terms of a partnership. Just being another advisor? I readily admit he would be better at ruling and making decisions than her, but she doesn't know that, she wouldn't admit it if she did know it and his brother killed her dad. Tryion has no access to the family money or any real power in the Lannister name right now. I just dont know what really Varys has in mind

 

Once he gets over his self-pity/loathing, Tyrion is brilliant and has experience that could be valuable.  He's extremely well-read. He was Hand of the King. He was the person who came up with the strategy to fend off Stannis from taking King's Landing. He is someone who knows about the various families of Westeros in a way that none of Dani's current advisors do, with the possible exception of Varys.

 

In terms of why Dany might trust Tyrion, Varys will vouch for him and Illyrio (sp?) the person who sheltered her and Viserys for years will vouch for both Varys and Tyrion, presumably.

 

Jon could not accept the offer to be trueStarked because the Night's Watch oath is super duper pooper scooper sacred. There is no provision for release from it.

There's also the practical thing: even if he could be released from the Night's Watch oath, the Northerners would look on someone who would weasel out of such an oath as no true King in the North.

[paigow]

Does trial by combat cancel out Night Watch oath? Or is Tyrion in violation?

[CletusMusashi]

Dany's people really need to get better at thinking about crowd security. Why are there so many damned throwing rocks lying around outside the castle? Send a guy out with a wheelbarrow, why don't you?

[Rocket]

With Danny I'm sure Varys and Tyrion will have to sell themselves to her. Varys was (actually probably really is) the master of spiders and Danny's former Kings Guard will know who he is although might not trust him. Both Varys and Tyrion can talk a real good game so I assume they can talk themselves into being her advisors, if they don't then Danny is probably doomed and if they become her advisors Danny is even more the sure bet to be last standing. (Dragons and a Comet for her already has her as final winner, if she adds the Dothraki to the Unsullied getting the successful Ottoman Army combo she is unstoppable even without Dragons) 

 

Timetoread said

 

One needs to learn how to rule and doing the right thing is almost universally unpopular.  I admire her for trying and frankly if everyone can cheer for the teenager with the penis, Jon Snow, because he's not a coward (mostly because he has nothing to lose) and he can lead a hundred men, why not cheer for the teenager with the vagina (also not a coward), and the army of a thousand, and the nation of tens of thousands she's trying to rule, and, btw, the DRAGONS?

 

It is an interesting contrast although Jon has had plenty of flack in the past. Ned another stupid on you, not getting your son legitimized by your friend Robert even though Cat would not be happy. 

 

I have to view SOME of the Danny dislike as people are still not able to accept female leaders even if the person making the comment thinks they are ok with female leaders. (some in all caps as this sort of comment often gets responses as if I said all) It sort of a higher standard thing Danny has made great moves along with her bad ones, she was the only one who came up with the getting all the Unsullied all by her self. 

 

Until a lot of dark skinned leaders in fiction get to rule light skinned areas the imbalance caused in the early days of movies by "white man burden" tales it will always cause discomfort. I would recommend viewing a bit of the old white man burden tales or reading up and you can see that the only similarity with Danny story is skin color, in no way is Danny thinking like or trying to act in the I'm racial superior way that makes up the "white man's burden" colonial way of thinking. 

 

Ayra coming back for her revenge as a faceless woman would be cool. People on the death list dying in all sorts of creative ways and no one knows how the killer got in and out. But I assume years of training so don't know how that will work in story.  I'm quite sure them three toughs had not really observed killers well, or discounted a girl with the same look, or they would have noticed Ayra's I've killed before and will kill again eyes and smooth battle stance. The toughs might have won but I'm sure at least one would have had needle thrust though them in the process.  A Man showing up might have saved their lives more than Ayra's. 

[Popples]

Was totally expecting trial by combat to be the solution (in the coliseum) to a "fair trial" - then everybody wins!  

 

Yeah, I expected for her to say he had to earn his freedom by opening fighting pits in Mereen and he would be the first participant.

 

I wish Sansa had asked Brienne where she was expecting to take Sansa if she had said yes.  Winterfell? Yeah, the Boltons wouldn't totally screw her over. The Wall? They're busy. I think the Freys still have her uncle Edmure chained up somewhere and her great-uncle Blackfish is still taking the longest piss ever and no one has seen him since.

 

"Wacky Adventures with Jaime and Bronn" has a lot to live up to, I hope it's up to the task.

 

Loved when Uncle Kevan reminded Cersei that she's the "Queen Mother" and that if the king wants to speak to him, he needs to do it himself. It seems he wields enough of his own power to shut her shit down.

 

I love Shireen so much, can't wait for her Westerosi version of "Hooked on Phonics" to come out. Way to be a bitch, Selyse. I wish she would sacrifice herself to the Lord of Light.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Does trial by combat cancel out Night Watch oath? Or is Tyrion in violation?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Tyrion has never been a member of the Night's Watch. He just went to the Wall early on to visit. 

 

The show hasn't been explicit as to what happened in Tyrion's latest trial by combat. Both his champion and the Crown's died. I assume that means that a tie goes to the Crown. 

[Drogo]

During Arya's list recitation last night, my wife turned to me and said "Huh? What did Walder Frey do?"

I called the divorce lawyer this morning.

[WicketyWack]

9. I'm skeptical that Qyburn was truly planning an experiment that required, for some reason, a dwarf skull.

I think he just wanted a little head.

As twisted as Qyburn seems to be, back in The Day, legitimate doctors actively sought corpses and body parts to dissect and learn from. A head would have been a huge score! Although for Qyburn, yeah I agree he probably enjoys the research more than most.

[Direwolf]

The show hasn't been explicit as to what happened in Tyrion's latest trial by combat. Both his champion and the Crown's died. I assume that means that a tie goes to the Crown. 

 

 Tyrion was still scheduled to be executed, but Jamie freed him and Tyrion escaped King's Landing with Varys. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Direwolf

[nksarmi]

As for what Tyrion offers Dany - he offers her what none of her other advisors can - the strategy to gain the thrown and the wisdom to keep it. Sir Barrister can give her security and wisdom on the battlefield.  Jorah (assuming he gets back to her) can council her as a friend like no one else can.  Varys can tell her all the secrets of King's Landing and tell her where the bodies are buried.  But none of them have the mind of Tyrion - the knowledge of who would make a good ally, the wisdom of being good to the people, and the understanding of what makes people tick.

 

For example, better than anyone Tyrion can probably predict who Dany will have to fight and who she can make a pact with.  He knows Dorne would follow her into war without a second thought.  He knows that while Tyrell is a rich house - its lead by a weak man.  He knows the secret to the Iron Throne isn't necessarily KL and he knows just how weak his house is with his father dead.  He is likely strategic enough to realize that if you can take the North and take the South, the rest of the seven kingdoms will have to fall. No matter how much his father hated him, Tyrion has his father's mind (and likely his mother's heart) - no one else out there could serve Dany as well to take the seven kingdoms as well as Tyrion.  Heck, he even knows the measure of Jon Snow, so if things erupt at the Wall with the whitewalkers - Tyrion will be able to back the call that she will need to go there first to save the kingdom before she worries about the Iron Throne.

[MaggieG]

Thoughts:

I know Brienne swore an oath and blah blah but she needs to give it up. I totally agree with poor Pod, the Stark girls want nothing to do with her. And in a way, Sansa pretty much saved her life but telling her to go. I definitely think Sansa is playing the game and will not forget Brienne's name or her oath and when call on her when needed, but not now. For now, to keep herself alive, she needs to stay with Littlefinger (who totally could have been a lawyer in the real world).

I loved Cersei's uncle completely shutting her down, "if the king needs me, I'll be at Casterly Rock, peace out bitches". A man after my own heart.

Dorne and Prince Doran are very interesting so far, can't wait to see more of him. He seems reasonable (for now) and I think he'll have a lot to deal with regarding Ellaria and the Sand Snakes (who I can't wait to meet!)

Also, I am new to commenting on these and this might a stupid question but how do I quote something someone else posted? Thanks!

[Isazouzi]

With Danny I'm sure Varys and Tyrion will have to sell themselves to her. Varys was (actually probably really is) the master of spiders and Danny's former Kings Guard will know who he is although might not trust him.

I need someone to remind me: has Dany met Varys in season 1 when he organized her marriage with Drogo? Or has he never showed himself to her and her brother?

[izabella]

I wish Sansa had asked Brienne where she was expecting to take Sansa if she had said yes.  Winterfell? Yeah, the Boltons wouldn't totally screw her over. The Wall? They're busy. I think the Freys still have her uncle Edmure chained up somewhere and her great-uncle Blackfish is still taking the longest piss ever and no one has seen him since.

 

I believe Brienne wasn't proposing to take Sansa anywhere.  I think she was offering her protection, to be Sansa's own personal bodyguard (with squire).  Sansa could use a bodyguard loyal to her and no one else, but yeah, Littlefinger would never accept such a thing.  He knew he wouldn't be able to pay Brienne to betray Sansa or to spy on her.

[Chicago Redshirt]

 Tyrion was still scheduled to be executed, but Jamie freed him and Tyrion escaped King's Landing with Varys. 

I realize that Tyrion was going to be executed, but basically Cersei isn't about the finer points of the law. Even if Tyrion's champion had won, she would have found a way to have him executed.

 

I'm more wondering from a pure legal sense. Anybody familiar with real-world trial by combat know what happens if both combatants are killed?

 

I need someone to remind me: has Dany met Varys in season 1 when he organized her marriage with Drogo? Or has he never showed himself to her and her brother?

I don't think Dany has met Varys ever. It was Illyrio who arranged the marriage to Drogo.

[JTMacc99]

I'm more wondering from a pure legal sense. Anybody familiar with real-world trial by combat know what happens if both combatants are killed?

My guess is last one to die wins. Seems reasonable.

[paigow]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Tyrion has never been a member of the Night's Watch. He just went to the Wall early on to visit. 

 

 

Thanks CR.

[izabella]

Anybody familiar with real-world trial by combat know what happens if both combatants are killed?

 

What is "real-world" trial by combat? 

[Rocket]

Quick skim of wikipedia shows that many countries in particular the German areas had trial by combat in the law. The answer should be out there though the use of champions is mentioned nothing is stated about ties as use of champions seams to be rare and normally those who could lose a trial by combat went to trial by jury. But men did fight women in these sometimes. To the death or disabling was normal.In theory as America has never actually addressed the issue trial by combat and we are considered to adapt English common law trial by combat is still available in US ;)

Knowing that in our world the rules of trial by combat made the legal code of many countries I'm fairly sure Westros has a law on it. As Tyrion was to be executed and there was not crowd controversy over it I assume Wetros law is first dead and we still don't know if the Mountan is dead. 

[annsterg]

I wonder why Roose Bolton wasn't on Arya's new list...when Walder Frey was. Perhaps the nuance of Bolton's key role in her mother's and brother's murders is not generally known?

[paigow]

A head would have been a huge score! 

Odd source of spare parts for The Mountain....but when ya get lemons.... 

[Dobian]

That's showing 'em, Dany!  Public executions!  I think you need to hire a public relations firm, pronto.

 

I guess Brienne's oath has changed from protecting Sansa from harm to protecting Sansa from being molested by Littlefinger.

 

As a Deep Space Nine fan, it was great seeing Alexander Siddig in this episode.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dobian

[paigow]

I called the divorce lawyer this morning.

Clegane, Clegane & Baelish?

[DarkRaichu]

I am not going to repeat every cool things everyone else mentioned on this thread.  I just have a few things to add:

1. Brianne was just towering over Baelish when standing side by side in the tavern scenes.  Not sure if it was intentional, but the visual was striking

 

2. Tyrion is a master manipulator with brain bigger than his.. other parts.  He was a great Hand as Varys pointed out, meaning he was a good day to day manager and/or Chief of Staff.  Something Daenarys is sorely lacking at the moment.

ETA: She has too many generals / warrior types to efficiently rule a couple of cities

 

3. I guess Dany's boy toy (I cannot remember his name) was right in episode 1. She needs dragons to back up her "I am a queen so do what I say" play.  If she could not control the population of Mareen, there is no way she can work with the Tyrells and Lannisters of the Westeros

 

4. Stannis was right in bribing Jon to join him.  He did not have anyone to rule the north once he takes it over from the Boltons.  Also, he'd better attack Boltons ASAP while the Lannisters are still reeling from the lost of Tywin (ie. Boltons' main backer).

 

5. I loved how uncle Lannister refusing to be Cersei's puppet.  Lets see how well she can "rule" without a strong army 

 

6. Was this the first series where Indira Varma (Ellaria) survived her 1st appearance season ?  Wasn't she a female version of Sean Bean ? :P

 

Lastly, Sam during the NW Commander election scenes was by far the coolest aspect of this episode to me :)

Edited April 20, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[kdm07]

If she could not control the population of Mareen, there is no way she can work with the Tyrells and Lannisters of the Westeros

De-lurking to say: and THIS is why we're still in Meereen with Dany. IIRC her main reason for staying in Meereen was to figure out how to be a ruler before heading off to Westeros and trying to rule them. She may not be going about it the right way (how can she when this is her first time ever ruling a city and she's never had the education given to those in nobility on how to rule? It's going to be a lot of trial and error there) and she definitely needs all of her dragons back, but I see the sense in sticking her story there for the time being.

 

*goes back to lurking*

[Constantinople]

Interesting that it was Daario who served as the executioner and not one of the Unsullied.

I don't know if there's any significance in that.

[DarkRaichu]

Interesting that it was Daario who served as the executioner and not one of the Unsullied.

I don't know if there's any significance in that.

It could be to avoid any indication of revenge

 

Or.. because Daario was just that good with his hands ;) ;)

[Meredith Quill]

Also, I am new to commenting on these and this might a stupid question but how do I quote something someone else posted? Thanks!

 

Click on the quotation marks in the lower right hand corner of any post (they are faded until you hover over them), doing that brings up a box in the lower righthand corner of your screen, you can quote as many posts as you wish (the number of posts will add up in this box) then click reply. If you are unsure feel free to go to the test zone to try it out.

 

I need someone to remind me: has Dany met Varys in season 1 when he organized her marriage with Drogo? Or has he never showed himself to her and her brother?

Dany has only knows Illyrio Mopatis (Varys's partner in crime and whose home he & Tyrion arrived at in the previous episode). As well as being the marriage organiser, Illyrio had also been their benefactor for some time as per the conversation between Viserys & Dany S01E01.

[Neurochick]

One needs to learn how to rule and doing the right thing is almost universally unpopular.  I admire her for trying and frankly if everyone can cheer for the teenager with the penis, Jon Snow, because he's not a coward (mostly because he has nothing to lose) and he can lead a hundred men, why not cheer for the teenager with the vagina (also not a coward), and the army of a thousand, and the nation of tens of thousands she's trying to rule, and, btw, the DRAGONS?

 

 

This is a real good point.  I felt for Dany, she was in a lose/lose situation as most rulers are when they make unpopular decisions.  

[DrSpaceman]

In regard to Tyrion helping Dany, basically what I am saying is yes, WE all know he can help her quite a bit because he is smart and wonderful at the game of politics.  DANY does not know any of that though. In fact based on his reputation in the Seven Kingdoms, whe likely knows him pretty much as we all saw him in Season one, part one, a drunken, whoring dwarf interested in nothing beyond his own physical self interests. All she sees is a Lannister family member, the brother of her father's killer, a member of the family that uses and manipulates people for their on gain.  How does she know he is not working with Cersei and its not an elaborate scheme to bring her to King's Landing and trap her?  Just based on the word of Varys and his friend?  Varys mostly works for the Lannisters as well. 

 

We obviously know otherwise about Tyrion, but how will she be convinced of anything close to what we know of him? 

[Dandesun]

I think Dany's story is an interesting one. She was born a Targaryen but either before or shortly after Robert's Rebellion started (I'm not sure how the timeline goes on the show) so it was only her and her brother living off the kindness of others... or rather the ambitions of others. She was basically sold to Drogo by her brother for his army... that marriage just happened to turn out well for her. It easily could have gone the other way. Her sense of justice and right and wrong began to develop when she felt secure for probably the first time in her life and, unfortunately, her wanting to do right turned out very badly when she thought she saved a woman who had already been ravaged by the Dothraki and, therefore, did not feel any particular loyalty or gratitude towards Dany.

 

The dragons have certainly helped her but she's also had a mind towards those who did not have anything. All she ever really had was a name, after all. The thing is, various people are motivated by many different things and see that in her... power, money, possibilities and ambitions for themselves. Her two closest advisors, Jorah and now Selmy are outcasts from Westeros. How long had Jorah been exiled? And Selmy was the head of the Kingsguard, he wasn't exactly the Hand of the King or really involved with the day to day aspects of ruling. In that, she really does need the likes of Varys and Tyrion... both of whom know the tangled webs very well. Selmy is good to have because he knew what her father was and he knew what came after. But he's still in this for his honor more than hers. He wants to be able to serve a worthy royal.. not a Mad King and not a Drunken, Whoring King, either.

 

I'm rooting for Dany but she does need help because she has no idea how to rule and while she's beginning to understand how many different layers there are to that it's still not something you just know how to do. She's been surviving and conquering... those are very different from ruling and I hope that she gets Varys and Tyrion to help... not to do it for her, but to open her eyes to other aspects and give her further knowledge that she needs.

 

And, man, I'd love for her to meet Sansa. They have some things in common. Also? I want her to look at Cersei to see how it's NOT done.

 

Cersei is awful. I think Lena is awesome and plays the shit out of Cersei but that character is horrible. She has actually had quite the opposite experience of Dany. Born to wealth and privilege with a name that means something along with the gold to back it up. She was pampered and spoiled and yet there was always something twisted in Cersei, I think. There is a meanness in her that is not in Dany. The smirk she gave as she practically flounced into the chair of the Hand, posing a bit so everyone at the Small Council could see where she was intending and did indeed sit as a means of showing them that SHE was the one in power. I get her story... to a point... she's the eldest of Tywin's children and feels cheated of her birthright because of her gender... thinking she is Tywin's True Heir. The problem is... she's not. She is too quick to hate, to strike, to lash out due to her pride and what SHE wants. She wants power and has no idea how to wield it properly and she raised her eldest son in the same way.

 

DORNE! I've been waiting for Dorne. I see what they're doing with this story and I'm interested in seeing how it plays out. Also... Jaime and Bronn heading to Dorne? Very interesting indeed. I look forward to seeing Jaime try to treat with the Martells because I don't think he's going to be able to sneak in and sneak out the way he expects. 

 

Arya at the House of Black and White. More please!

 

Sam's speaking up for Jon was brilliant. "I found him after in a puddle of his own making." And of course Jon turned down the offer to be made a legitimate Stark. Ned raised him and Ned took vows seriously. Ned told Jon that Starks had served in the Night's Watch from the beginning and it was a noble thing to do. Of course Jon would honor his father by holding to the Night's Watch. It struck me as a very Stark thing for him to do.

[Drogo]

Interesting that it was Daario who served as the executioner and not one of the Unsullied.

I don't know if there's any significance in that.

 

The Sons of the Harpy are already killing Unsullied, so maybe she figured they didn't need more bad press?

[Macbeth]

On rewatch I heard LIttlefinger talk about accepting a marriage proposal.  Who is he bargaining with now?  He is always at least 3 moves ahead of everyone else on the chess board. He takes advantage of chaos. 

 

With Tywin dead,  Aunt Lysa dead, and Sansa outed - the Eerie is not a place for him to launch a kingdom - the people there would definitely back Sansa.

 

The Tyrells still owe him, but Littlefinger likes to make allies with everyone (Stannis is not an option however) - so who has he just broke bread with?  He really scares me.

 

I am rewatching S2 "Ghosts of Harrenhal."  A Woman needs more of a Man.

 

Arya learned an important lesson - if she wants to be accepted by A Man - she has to be able to give up her name and identity.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Macbeth

[Dandesun]

I'm scared to death that Littlefinger is going to try to marry Sansa off to the Boltons. I do. not. want. Sansa anywhere near those psychos.

[Philbert]

 

Did Elia cut her hair because she’s mourning?  Was Dorne in the opening creds?

 

Ellaria. Ellaria Sand. Elia Martell was murdered by The Mountain years ago.

[Philbert]

 

Yep, and I'm disappointed in Stanis, who sees himself as an honorable man, for not respecting this vow. But other than that, I love Stanis and I don't even know why.

 

To be fair to Stannis, he doesn't really have much of a choice. He needs a Stark in Winterfell if he's going to be able to rule the North (the letter from the Mormont girl made that clear) and Jon is the closest thing to a Stark he has. Honor is all well and good but it doesn't mean anything as long as the Boltons have their arses firmly planted in the Northern Capitol. Then again, as bad as Stannis has it, the Boltons are in a far worse situation. The Northern families merely don't know or trust Stannis or feel any kinship with him. To them, he's just another pretender to the Iron Throne. The Boltons (and the Freys)-they hate with the fiery passion of a thousand suns...

[CletusMusashi]

Littlefinger never even realized who Podrick was, did he? Brienne Schmienne, Podrick was the boy who had Littlefinger's whores refusing to take money! Not sure if he would have tried to kill him, hire him, or pump him for secrets the way Tyrion and Bronn did, but there certainly would have been some reaction!

 

You know what worries me about Arya? Her entire training arc might just be A Man standing in front of a chalkboard explaining all the new grammar rules. "... and on the third day of the second month, a girl may use one first person pronoun per five sentences, but on the fourth day she may not even use proper nouns. A girl would be wise not to travel at that time; trying to get directions then is a real bitch ..."

 

 

Was Ghost even in this episode? Damn it, writers, don't even think about letting Shireen visit the wall without getting to pet a gigantic dire doggy! 

Edited April 20, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Fen]

Dany's decision to go by the book made me think that maybe she and Stannis would get along.

 

Stannis actually shows way more flexibility and ingenuity than Dany.  Jon Snow directly contradicted the King's will?  Stannis respects his courage and wants to legitimise him and make him the Stark in Winterfell.  The Wildings are deadly foes to Westeros?  Absorb them into the country and give them land.  He respects the law, but he's also a pragmatist.  It's something that helps differentiate him from the rigidly honourable Ned, for me.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Bronn seemed to like Wallis, which was a surprise to me. I think he would have been okay marrying her and spending the rest of his life with her. He obviously wasn't head over heels in love with her (and he was totally not listening while she babbled on about flowers and flutes) but he seemed sincere when he told her that she is a good person and her sister would get what's coming to her eventually.

 

LOL I am pretty sure Bronn's intention was to ARRANGE for something to "come to her eventually" as he insinuated last season.

 

 

Ha, loved Lyanna Mormont's response to Stannis. Even ten year old kids don't want to ally with Stannis.

 

My love for all things Mormont just grew by about 10x.

 

 

Awwwww, one of Dany's dragons came back! Well, for a second. See ya!

 

Personally I see a metaphor between Dany's inability to control her dragons despite the best of intentions and her inability to control her people and please them. Both are a bunch of wild, untamed beasts right now that may help her conquer the 7 kingdoms... or destroy her.

[RadiantAerynSun]

The reappearance of Jaqen H'Ghar may have made my entire year.

 

Whoah that was scary hearing Shireen (or rather Gilly) talk about the grayscale. A couple people commented on the make up resembling dragon scales but it sounds like they were literally turning into dragons? It seems like this is kind of a big thing we should have heard of already?!

 

 

Ellaria seems to have completely changed personality, which I could say makes sense for a woman who lost her partner, but she was as OTT bitter as possible just so that Bashir could smack her down.

 

I can believe her being that angry, but she really should leave Myrcella alone out of respect for Oberyn. He valued greatly the idea that the Dornish were superior to the Lannisters in that they would NOT harm an innocent due to inter-family spats. And she should know that.

 

 

More Bronn, now with a wife we can just laugh at and treat as an idiot. How original. I was kind of hoping last year was the sendoff for Bronn, but I do think his relationship with Jaime is interesting, so I will keep an open mind.

 

I also thought that was the last we'd see of Bronn, especially as his loyalty seemed even more questionable than ever, but I'm not entirely disappointed that it wasn't! First serving one brother, now the other.

 

I'm a little confused over why Dany didn't hold a trial for the slave-turned-murderer? Since the whole issue was he killed the Harpy guy without a trial. Seemed like she just summarily sentenced him to death. Maybe the execution would have been more well received if she'd held a trial and explained her sentence more clearly.  I thought Selmy's warning about her father was wise but I'm still not convinced Dany will avoid the Targaryen madness especially if she gets frustrated with how difficult it is to decide what the "right thing" is, and when people hate you even if you do what is "right".

 

 

I fear for Sansa who is just trying to survive.  It is clear she is scared of Baelish and could not entertain Brienne's offer.  She did try to warn Brienne by indicating that she should leave now.

 

Hmm I'm not sure; I think Sansa was testing her instincts and thought LF was instructing her to be properly suspicious of someone who comes along sporting Lannister gold and claiming to be there to save her. LF of course  knew he was exaggerating Brienne's ineptness for his own reasons, but I think Sansa thought she was genuinely being wise to avoid Brienne and I can't totally blame her. I haven't rewatched yet but I didn't get the feeling she was trying to clue Brienne in, I think Brienne read the situation and, knowing LF, knew that she was not safe to stay there.

Sidenote, what the hey with LF's "offer of marriage" ??? I can't even think of any marriagable pawns that might be left floating around.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Speaking of loyalty, have to agree with Daario about Hiz. The man has a very good reason to hold a grudge about his father's death if he loved him the way he seemed to in his introductory scene. The last time Dany accepted help from a person with a good reason for a grudge, that woman killed her baby and stole Drogo's soul or life force or whatever. Why should a former slaver be the first person in the history of the show to nobly forgive his enemies? Being a slaver who draws a line at the crucifixion of children is not a great recommendation and if he was being sincere about that it only gives him more reason to seethe over his father's unjust death.

 

OK maybe I'm terribly naive about this show, STILL, but I am not that suspicious of Hiz (? or whoever that guy's name is) intentions, mostlyb ecause I thought the purpose of his character was to shatter Dany's illusions about how "bad" all the slavers are and how "innocent" all the slaves are. (Yo, not saying slavery is good, just that there are good and bad on every side in every war - hey didn't somebody say that once?)

 

 

I'm down with her attempts to be fair.  And I agreed with her for killing that dude.  I was thinking, "How dare he?"  She gave him an order and his retort was "You didn't REALLY mean that.  My way is better, you'll see."  How good is a ruler who allows their subjects to arbitrarily decide to belay orders that they dont' agree with?  Killing him sent a bigger, long term message - this is going to be a nation of law and ALL are subject to that law - former master AND former slave.

 

I absolutely agreed he had to be punished. Disagreed that it should be done without (apparently?) a trial, or that it should be in public, or that it necessarily had to be execution (although I guess that was probably what was on the books in the city's laws)

 

why not cheer for the teenager with the vagina (also not a coward), and the army of a thousand she leads, and the nation of tens of thousands she's trying to rule, and, btw, the DRAGONS?

 

Well to be fair her dragons are not exactly under her control, just like her thousands of slaves are not either, despite all she has done for them. I think it's quite possible she will learn to do this... but equally possible she will go mad like her father due to the joy she receives over being "RIGHT" and "JUST" in her punishments as Selmy warned her about.

[FormerMod-a1]

There was no need for a trial. He said he did it.  They don't have to prove he did it, he says he did it and he's proud of it.

[Trichromatic]

One needs to learn how to rule and doing the right thing is almost universally unpopular.  I admire her for trying and frankly if everyone can cheer for the teenager with the penis, Jon Snow, because he's not a coward (mostly because he has nothing to lose) and he can lead a hundred men, why not cheer for the teenager with the vagina (also not a coward), and the army of a thousand, and the nation of tens of thousands she's trying to rule, and, btw, the DRAGONS?

 

 

I was definitley on board with Jon Snow taking the lead and becoming a major player in the game of thrones. This week, Stannis offers him more than a good leg up and a part of me was really hoping he would take it (as he clearly wanted to). But he is almost as obstinate about his ideal of honour as Dany is with justice. Both of them can be too politically simple and both clearly need all the help they can get if they are to aspire to the throne. 

When the Mad King's ex-Hand gave Dany a much deserved talking to about the dangers of being idealistic to a fault, Dany seemed surprised to hear the connections the Hand was drawing. But how can she be surprised? Has really she spent no time at all thinking her strategies through, especially what they might mean given her ancestry? Snow's rejection of Stannis's offer was just as frustrating - both will not make advantageous descions because of their moral code, and we know that on GoT all men with codes end up dead sooner or later. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Trichromatic

[DarkRaichu]

 

Sidenote, what the hey with LF's "offer of marriage" ??? I can't even think of any marriagable pawns that might be left floating around.

 

Hmm, can a woman / girl get divorced in Westeros and remarried ? Cersei was a widow before the arranged marriage to Loras so her case was different

[Fen]

As a Deep Space Nine fan, it was great seeing Alexander Siddig in this episode.

 

Now, Garak would shine in Game of Thrones.

 

I think Sansa was in an impossible position.  If she sides with Brienne and tries to leave with her - she knows that there's ten knights between them and the door of that inn.  If she opposes Littlefinger, and asks Brienne to stay with her, then it puts her in hot water with a man she knows to be dangerous.  What was she to do?  Sansa has looked like she's been wearing a mask the first two episodes - even her tone is neutral and calm - and Brienne asked her to fling that mask aside with no guarantee of safety (in fact, given how impulsive Brienne was, a positive guarantee of risk)

[Timetoread]

LOL I am pretty sure Bronn's intention was to ARRANGE for something to "come to her eventually" as he insinuated last season.

 

 

My love for all things Mormont just grew by about 10x.

 

 

Personally I see a metaphor between Dany's inability to control her dragons despite the best of intentions and her inability to control her people and please them. Both are a bunch of wild, untamed beasts right now that may help her conquer the 7 kingdoms... or destroy her.

 

I don't think the point of her dragons (or the throngs of people) is that they are untamed.  I think the lesson is to learn how to get that which you can't control to follow you.  I believe the dragons WILL come back to her of their own doing, not as her pets or her children, but because they want to.  Dany was at her best when she freed the Unsullied and said to them that they are free to join her but if they choose not to, that there will be no repercussion for that - free means FREE.  With that, they joined her out of respect.  She needs to earn the respect of her people. I do not believe, however, that she would do so by never acting for fear that nobody will want to be her friend anymore or that she can never make a decision on her own.  That dude needed to die.

 

As for the Mad King, was he any worse than Joffrey?  It's not the blood that makes them mad, it is the position.

[nksarmi]

In regard to Tyrion helping Dany, basically what I am saying is yes, WE all know he can help her quite a bit because he is smart and wonderful at the game of politics.  DANY does not know any of that though. In fact based on his reputation in the Seven Kingdoms, whe likely knows him pretty much as we all saw him in Season one, part one, a drunken, whoring dwarf interested in nothing beyond his own physical self interests. All she sees is a Lannister family member, the brother of her father's killer, a member of the family that uses and manipulates people for their on gain.  How does she know he is not working with Cersei and its not an elaborate scheme to bring her to King's Landing and trap her?  Just based on the word of Varys and his friend?  Varys mostly works for the Lannisters as well. 

 

We obviously know otherwise about Tyrion, but how will she be convinced of anything close to what we know of him? 

 

What I am thinking we will see is something like this....

 

Varys will pick up Jorah and will flat out tell Dany that she was never in any danger, but certain people in Westerous were interested in making sure Robert Baratheon's fears were pacified so that a real threat could not form.  I am assuming that Varys will have something HUGE up his sleeve to convince her that he at least might be telling the truth and that would lead to a mending of fences between her and Jorah.  Then they will have to convince her to trust Tyrion. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by SilverStormm
Removed book spec.