S03.E15: Nanda Parbat

[statsgirl]

BunsenBurner, I hope your nephew is all right now.

 

If we're doing Princess Bride, can I offer this line which seems to fit how quickly Felicity slept with Ray:

Faithfulness he talked of, madame, your enduring fathfulness. Now tell me truly, when you found out he was gone, did you get engaged to your prince that same hour, or did you wait a whole week out of respect for the dead?

Berlanti can't be serious about Nyssa being disinherited because she's a lesbian?  At the TCAs, they proudly showed off John Barrownman, Victor Garber, Wentworth Miller and Berlanti himself, proudly saying that this show does not discriminate.  Er... it doesn't discriminate as long as you're a male who looks white?

 

I assume that Malcolm Merlyn will remain alive, which while I really like Barrowman, I think he has served his time on the show.

Are the Boys Own stories like the "Digging for Gold" story by Horatio Algers, the incredibly ridiculous plot driven crap pile they made me read in 7th grade.  Nothing happened for another reason than to drive the plot to the next point.  I ripped it to shreds when I was 13, I'm not going to accept it now. 

Horatio Alger stories -- responsible for much of condemnation of people who aren't lucky enough to get themselves out of the pit.

Boys Own are about boys having amazing adventures, or books like Cue For Treason where an ordinary boy meets Shakespeare and the Queen's Spymaster and saves Queen Elizabeth I from an assassination plot.

 

I agree about the very weird tone between Ray and Felicity.  It felt like they'd filmed their scenes with no knowledge of the rest of the script...actually it feels like BR best bud filmed it from Ray's perspective and didn't care about how Felicity should be reacting. I'm sure her being upset or distracted would take away from the "fun" of the scene.  Bad form Ephraim.  Bad form. 

It seemed like he was so excited about getting to direct his BFF in a love scene and then an action scene, he made it as sweet and romantic as he could, irrespective of the show's narrative.

 

 

I don't think Ray is a stalker per se, but his past behavior towards her (coming to her home uninvited, walking into her home uninvited, pinging her cell phone to talk to her after she told him she didn't want to talk to him) puts some of this "romantic" stuff in a bad light. Like, maybe in some other scenario Ray walking into his living room in only a towel knowing Felicity was there might have been cute, or maybe believable that he just forgot to get dressed. But given the things he's done to pursue her and the way he talks to her, everything that led up to the sex in this ep just seemed so not genuine and squicky and IMO a little predatory?

I think they're trying to write Ray as being so brilliant he isn't aware of normal human boundaries, a Sheldon Cooper-lite, but while I can wave pinging  her phone and arriving on her doorstep early in the morning, I just can't with the "Oh, am I only wearing a towels around my hips? I never noticed."  Any  man who has such serious etiquette issues would never have made it as the CEO even of his own company.  Totally inappropriate and squicky.

They need more women in that writer’s room if they want to try to play with emotional/romantic drama. If they do intend to swing the pendulum back to Oliver and Felicity, I hope it’s not this season because the emotional beats on this show give me whiplash.

 

They need better female writers.  Wendy Mericle was one of the people responsible for this episode, and she and Beth Schwartz wrote the not-lamented Time of Death last season.

 

The entire season is basically “Because comics” – it makes no other sense than that. They’ve pretty much lost me this season.

 

THIS so much.  None of this season makes sense, and I think it's partly because they assumed that everyone loves the comics and knows them and wants to see them reproduce so all they have to say is "Ra's" and "Nanda Parbat" and we'll go "ooh, scary", or put a character in costume and we'll love it. It's true for some people but those of us who don't come from the comics are left wondering just what is so special about Ra's and his designer bathtub.

 

Mkay, this is probably beside the point but last night's episode made me wonder: Isn't Oliver still broke? How is Diggle earning a living since the wife appears to still be on mat leave? And Roy is still a busboy (or something) at Thea's club so presumably he works at night which is a tiny conflict since those are prime vigilante hours. I realize this is slightly beside the point but it's really starting to bug me.

Oliver isn't broke any longer. Apparently between 3x01, when he was so broke he had to make a present for baby Sara, and 3x03 when he bought the tickets for Corto Maltese, he got the insurance money from Moira's death, about $3 - 4 million.  You'd think he would pay his Team for their work but apparently Diggle is living off of Lyla's earnings (ARGUS doesn't give mat leave), Roy off of his part-time job working for Thea, and Felicity from PT.

Edited February 27, 2015 by statsgirl

[Ariah]

Berlanti can't be serious about Nyssa being disinherited because she's a lesbian?  At the TCAs, they proudly showed off John Barrownman, Victor Garber, Wentworth Miller and Berlanti himself, proudly saying that this show does not discriminate.  Er... it doesn't discriminate as long as you're a male who looks white?

 

I don't think the show is discriminating, but I believe the League is. Which is a difference.

 

Centuries old organization, led by a man whose title seems to be hereditary, discriminating same sex romance? Yes, I can believe it's possible.

[Starfish35]

I think most of what I thought has been covered by other people. But just to summarize (and I wasn't taking notes, so I'll probably forget something).

There were a lot of good things about this episode. Unfortunately it's all undercut by the sheer stupidity of this "protecting Malcolm Merlyn" plot line, complicated by the "saving Thea's soul" nonsense. If there was some other reason for Oliver and Diggle to have to go to Nanda Parbat.... Because I really did enjoy their scenes, mostly. I wasn't really buying the whole "can't stand it that someone beat me" angle though. I could have bought the PTSD angle if it'd been presented differently, but I'm sorry to say that right now it simply comes across as the writers trying to add in some justification for a very stupid plot line.

Laurel....was tolerable, mostly. Others have pointed out the issues with her phone call to her father and her question to Oliver about lying to her face. That would have been an effective scene if we didn't know that she'd been lying to her dad's face about Sara for months.

This was the first time I'd really seen her in the Black Canary gear, in action, since I didn't watch 311-313. (There was just that one glimpse at the end of 310.) I wasn't impressed. It wasn't really all that fun to see her flailing around so badly. And I might have appreciated Merlyn being the voice of the fandom a little more if I didn't dislike him so thoroughly by now. :(

And like others have said, I really wish they'd stop with all the emphasis on Merlyn being Thea's father. He just showed up in her life a few months ago, and considering what he's done to her, I don't think he deserves that title. Like I said before, it just really feels like the writers trying too hard to justify this absolutely asinine storyline. :(

Felicity and Ray....others have mentioned how this just really felt weird and tonally off. Like it was cut from a different show. I have to totally agree with that. And I'm sorry but I'm just not buying Raylicity at all. I don't ship Olicity so it's not because of that. They just don't feel like they fit somehow. I really liked Barry and Felicity - they were adorable. But something is off here and I can't even put my finger on what is bugging me about the two of them together. Felicity herself felt off somehow. Maybe if I hadn't skipped the last three episodes, maybe the characterization would make more sense. *shrug*. I don't know.

Ray's suit - to me it just looks like a cross between Iron Man and RoboCop. And the flying? Yeah I don't know. RDJ did it way better is all I'm saying. :(

[Actionmage]

None of this season makes sense, and I think it's partly because they assumed that everyone loves the comics and knows them and wants to see them reproduce so all they have to say is "Ra's" and "Nanda Parbat" and we'll go "ooh, scary", or put a character in costume and we'll love it. It's true for some people but those of us who don't come from the comics are left wondering just what is so special about Ra's and his designer bathtub.

 

(italics mine)

I "come from comics" and didn't think it was a Lazarus Pit ( shoulda looked more lava-y), have been whelmed with Ra's, and haven't enjoyed how out of character these TV characters have been done wrong. 

 

I am not happy with this version of Dinah Laurel Lance or Dinah Lance at all. I like Nyssa, but I haven't read the stories/ arcs where she's been shown. I like the version of Oliver I first read in the 70s. I think this version is close to what I enjoyed about that Ollie, but not this season. I hate with a fiery passion how Ray Palmer has been wrecked, so I am glad I knew about how awesome Ray was before the show "got" him.  Sure, there are some folks who are perfectly happy with these inane "Because Comics!" versions. They probably are fans.  But lots of us comics fans are wondering wtf is going on too.

 

TIIC have totally misjudged what fans, of all backgrounds, wanted to see. Yet they mock and dismiss fans with reasonable gripes and questions.

[poetgirl925]

Berlanti can't be serious about Nyssa being disinherited because she's a lesbian?  At the TCAs, they proudly showed off John Barrownman, Victor Garber, Wentworth Miller and Berlanti himself, proudly saying that this show does not discriminate.  Er... it doesn't discriminate as long as you're a male who looks white?

 

They need better female writers.  Wendy Mericle was one of the people responsible for this episode, and she and Beth Schwartz wrote the not-lamented Time of Death last season.

 

None of this season makes sense, and I think it's partly because they assumed that everyone loves the comics and knows them and wants to see them reproduce so all they have to say is "Ra's" and "Nanda Parbat" and we'll go "ooh, scary", or put a character in costume and we'll love it. It's true for some people but those of us who don't come from the comics are left wondering just what is so special about Ra's and his designer bathtub.

Wait, did Berlanti say Nyssa being a lesbian is the reason Ra's disinherited her? I definitely caught the implication in the episode, but I also thought maybe it had to do with Nyssa being emotionally rash or because her objectivity was compromised with regard to Sara's death. Or some combination of all of it. It was definitely a stupid narrative decision IMO. Frankly, Nyssa should be able to wipe the floor with Oliver, so I really don't buy that he can beat her anyway - except, you know, the show is called Batman - oops, sorry. Arrow.

Haha, Wendy Mericle strikes again, huh? Is it just me, or does it seem like she's suddenly writing more episodes? Schwartz and Mericle are the only two women I'm aware of writing for the show, and they're both terrible. I still think they need more than two women, anyway.

I ventured into a couple of comment threads for comic book articles on the show, and I'm actually seeing a lot of comic readers complaining about this season. Many of them do think this Ra's plot is silly and contrived. And lol, he did look like he was lounging in a designer bathtub right? He's just not scary - when he talked about how many years it had been since someone challenged him, I was reminded of the "It's been 84 years" scene with the little old lady from Titanic lol. I wish someone would do a gif of that comparison, actually. Not impressed. I'm not as familiar with Atom from comics, but their reinterpretation isn't really doing it for me. Poor Routh - he just can't catch a break. At this point, I'm trying to find something to like about Ray for his sake because the fandom has been brutal wrt to the Palmer plot. I don't know - unless the ratings tank, I just don't think the EPs care that much about Arrow anymore. And if they don't care, why should I? I mean, as much as I don't like Laurel, I think her story might have gone better this season if they had spent more time developing her hero arc. They could have brought in a Wildcat character who stuck around more if they hadn't blown their budget on Barrowman and Routh. The fact that they have been pushing the Ray story so hard implies they always knew the Laurel as BC arc wasn't going to take off, so they just shoved it in and said "Whatever." Black Canary should have trended last week since Quentin called her that, but from what I understand, it didn't. With so many show trends going on during live viewing, that says something IMO.

On a funny note, I was doing laundry and exercising when I watched Arrow this week, and I totally missed that scene where Laurel asked Oliver how he could lie right to her face. Lolol - really? She can ask that question after lying to Quentin for half a season and impersonating her dead sister more than once in order to reinforce the lie? *sigh*

[kismet]

Wait, did Berlanti say Nyssa being a lesbian is the reason Ra's disinherited her? I definitely caught the implication in the episode, but I also thought maybe it had to do with Nyssa being emotionally rash or because her objectivity was compromised with regard to Sara's death. Or some combination of all of it. It was definitely a stupid narrative decision IMO. Frankly, Nyssa should be able to wipe the floor with Oliver, so I really don't buy that he can beat her anyway - except, you know, the show is called Batman - oops, sorry. Arrow.

Haha, Wendy Mericle strikes again, huh? Is it just me, or does it seem like she's suddenly writing more episodes? Schwartz and Mericle are the only two women I'm aware of writing for the show, and they're both terrible. I still think they need more than two women, anyway.

 

Im gonna hold  out judgment until 316 as to why Nyssa is not fit to be heir. I think & hope its gonna be something more to do with her reaction to Sara's death & not her gender or sexual preference. I just feel the writers/producers would not be that blatantly sexist or bias. She did seem a little wrapped up in vengeance than justice, which I don't think goes along with the LoA mantra.

 

As for the female writers, I have watched every episode of Arrow, but have not gone back & researched all the episodes I like & dislike. But I do know the Wendy Mericle has written a few of the episodes I dislike the most, so perhaps thats a trend for me. I think its interesting when people think that female writers will automatically be able to write the female perspective on shows.Ive found that it doesn't always work. The gender of the writer is not always indicative of what strengths & weaknesses are. Some male writers write phenomenal female perspective, likewise some female writers do the same for male perspective. And the contrary is evident as well.

 

For me,  Arrow's problems seem to be more tone, continuity & characterization. Its almost like they need someone in the writers room to read the scripts and make sure that the characters are consistent & the tone is correct. Im not sure what their process is, but it feels like no one proofreads the scripts to look at the bigger picture. Its like they are written in a vacuum of each other & then they hit production without realizing that the timing or the characterizations are off. Like people said about Ray this episode & others, its like his plotline is complete separate & on a different timetable than the major ep plot. Or the continuity of Ra's or Nyssa's motivations for wanting Queen dead or alive. I dont know how the production at Arrow works for scripts. But I remember the Office & other shows mentioned they have something like a multi-tiered writing process where stories are assigned to writers, they write the script, someone outside of that particular eps reads/reports back & then the primary team then takes back over & is responsible for the final script. I wonder if Arrow had a similar process if it would help with some of these tonal, characters & continuity problems. It just seems like somewhere between the story boarding & the final script something goes a little off on some of the characters or plot points.

[poetgirl925]

I definitely agree that they have tone, continuity and characterization issues from episode to episode, but I think having more women in the writer's room (or at least better ones than the two I'm familiar with) could improve the female perspective of the characters. Things are brought up by female fans all the time that it seems like the writers never considered - for instance, Oliver sleeping with every woman he wasn't related to. Amell himself admitted that was something he took to the EPs after female fans said they were bothered by it. That being said, it's true that having women on the writing team doesn't guarantee anything since seeing Mericle's name on a script makes me groan before I've even seen the episode.

Right now I'm leaning towards believing that Ra's wants to replace Nyssa because she's too emotional and not objective enough about Sara's murder. She's clearly in it for vengeance. I really hope they don't even hint at it being due to her personal relationship with Sara. I don't believe these writers would handle a sensitive topic like that very well since they're all about treating their plots and themes like Laurel treats that stick this season - wildly swinging and smacking us on the head in situations where a subtle approach would have more impact.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I think Ra's implied that he thought Nyssa was too emotionally driven in a bad way to run the League, especially compared to Oliver, who is also emotionally driven, but in a more positive way (for Ra's purposes). Since they apparently do have a code, I could see Ra's being worried that someone could rattle her by taking a swipe at someone she cares about and Nyssa leveling whatever she had to to get at them.

Ra's knows that Oliver's instinct is to protect and that he's willing to maybe do some unpalatable (stupid) things and exercise restraint in getting justice. That's probably a more valuable leadership quality that he'd look for. And I suppose he figures he can teach Oliver to fight more easily than he can teach Nyssa to be someone other than she is.

So I think the reason is going to be total bullshit, but I don't think it's because she's a lesbian, I think it's going to be because she's a woman and we just can't keep a handle on our dang emotions. She'd probably level a city whenever she had PMS!

[tv echo]

MG clarifications from tumblr..

lazyarrowwatcher asked:
Can you explain that scene with Merlin and Ra's ? Was he saying Malcom was the man who he met in 1854 or was he just telling a story?

He was talking about meeting a guy in 1854.

24anemo asked:
Did Oliver kill people in Nanda Parbat? I mean, he hit a guy with a flaming arrow, and shot another one in the neck. I understand he's trying to learn to be a killer again so he can take down Ra's, but does this mean he's forsaken the vow in season two, or does he make a special exception for League of Assassins members? Just wondering, thanks for a great show so far.

No.  All those guys are fine.  Promise.

leia-mont asked:
Please clarify how Oliver is sustained financially and keeps the team. he should have a lot of money yet, because he had the trust fund, but you said it is totally bankrupt, the point of not being able to afford a hotel.

Have you read Arrow Season 2.5?

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 27, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Since I didn't watch the episode, I'm depending on gifs. Did they say that Sara was trained by Ra's?

 

If so doesn't that make her the student of the Master? Malcolm was trained by LOL, whom Sara killed. I could also see Ra's training Sara if she laughed at him during his demonstration of his power. He would take someone under his wing that laughs in the face of death. This was probably before she and Nyssa started dating. It also makes more sense that his dismissal of Sara was not just that she left Nyssa but also that she betrayed him directly by leaving. 

[JenMD]

Have you read Arrow Season 2.5?

 

Not the original tumblr asker, but no, MG, I haven't.  I shouldn't have to for the tv show I'm watching to make sense.  I also shouldn't have to wait for clarification from social media for the tv show I'm watching to make sense.  That's what those 42 minutes on screen are for.

 

As for this particular ep itself, the entire Malcolm storyline is utter nonsense. 

[tv echo]

Ra's' disapproval of Nyssa's relationship with Sara because he knew that Sara would leave her and break her heart makes no sense  since Sara returned with Nyssa to the LOA at the end of Season 2 - and they were apparently quite happy together.

[poetgirl925]

Is MG serious? I have not read the Arrow 2.5 comics, and quite frankly, I have no intention of doing so because I don't have time. It is completely ridiculous that a fan asks for clarification on something within the TV show and he suggests they go read a comic book. I really hope someone tells him that, too. The second I have to start watching three or four shows and read a bunch of books to understand what's going on in ONE TV SHOW, I will be done. That is not how television shows work, and they are playing a dangerous game if they think they can sustain story in this way.

And with that, I think I'm done for the season. I'll still follow Paleyfest and maybe the news of the spinoff (I'm betting money Routh will be there now, and suddenly SA's non-attendance makes more sense.) I'll either read episode recaps or binge before SDCC so I can decide whether I want to give it another shot after such a crap season.

[KenyaJ]

I can't believe MG said that. What a tool. But it's so indicative of this season and all the shortcuts the writers are taking.

[Carrie Ann]

Wait, did Berlanti say Nyssa being a lesbian is the reason Ra's disinherited her? I definitely caught the implication in the episode, but I also thought maybe it had to do with Nyssa being emotionally rash or because her objectivity was compromised with regard to Sara's death. Or some combination of all of it.

 

Im gonna hold  out judgment until 316 as to why Nyssa is not fit to be heir. I think & hope its gonna be something more to do with her reaction to Sara's death & not her gender or sexual preference. I just feel the writers/producers would not be that blatantly sexist or bias. She did seem a little wrapped up in vengeance than justice, which I don't think goes along with the LoA mantra.

 

To the first question: no, Berlanti hasn't made any comments on this. I think the OP just brought Berlanti into it b/c he was the one who semi-apologized for not including more women on that TCA panel?

 

In this episode, Malcolm is the one who says that Nyssa should have known that her relationship with Sara would cause her father to disinherit her, and there was something about it that made me think that the implication was that it was because Sara was a woman. But we don't know yet,

apparently we're going to learn in 316.

You're all probably right, and it is just the fact of her having a relationship at all, particularly with someone who wasn't completely dedicated to the League, and not that that person was a woman. I think I had people's discussions of the other comic book Batman/Ra's storylines

involving an attempted forced marriage with Talia to produce an heir

in my mind when I was processing the episode. I will hold onto hope that whatever the reason, the writers will not lean into the sexism, but are planning to subvert those things like they used to do.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[steelyis]

No.  All those guys are fine.  Promise.

 

 

Bull. Shit.

 

 

Wait, did Berlanti say Nyssa being a lesbian is the reason Ra's disinherited her? I definitely caught the implication in the episode, but I also thought maybe it had to do with Nyssa being emotionally rash or because her objectivity was compromised with regard to Sara's death. Or some combination of all of it. It was definitely a stupid narrative decision IMO. Frankly, Nyssa should be able to wipe the floor with Oliver, so I really don't buy that he can beat her anyway - except, you know, the show is called Batman - oops, sorry. Arrow.

 

 

Can you image how Oliver would react if he had lost to Nyssa? Losing to Ra's drove him to ask a mass murderer for training. I'd hate to find out what losing to a girl would do to his fragile male ego.

[poetgirl925]

Yes, I think her having deep feelings for anyone and being involved with anyone might be something Ra's would consider unsuitable for his heir, so that makes more sense to me and is more in line with what I took away from the episode. Choosing Oliver is still stupid since I have to believe there are better candidates who have dedicated themselves to the League.

[jay741982]

I'm watching this episode in full right now. I have no words for they made Felicity look in the gross hookup scene with Ray. Jessus Felicity acted like she never seen Oliver half naked before and like a woman who's easily impressed by wealth along with looking like a woman who falls for the "oops I forgot I only have a towel on" crap. The light didn't shine on them like with Oliver/Felicity. I also have called Oliver Stupid like 4 times and I'm not done with the Episode more later

[KirkB]

I can't quite wrap my head around the idea that Ra's would disinherit Nyssa, now, because she was gay. Don't misunderstand me, I could fully accept the idea of Ra's doing it for that reason, but she has been raised as Heir to the Demon her whole life and has been gay her whole life. In an isolated locale like Nanda Parbat I don't imagine Ra's was unaware Nyssa was interested in women until Sara came around, unless maybe Nyssa had in fact been completely celibate up until that point. I'd more readily think he has finally decided she is too hot tempered or emotional or something, which granted is still misogynistic, just not necessarily homophobic. 

 

On a similar note, none of this makes Ra's look too good. It's seriously disrespectful of his own daughter, and more to the point questions his own decision making. He wants an heir. I get that. He has apparently decided Nyssa is no longer worthy. But in looking around his world the best replacement he can come up with is Oliver Queen? A guy who lost his company because his couldn't be bothered to pay any attention to it, and whose team has fractured because his decisions this last season have been boneheaded at best? 

Edited February 27, 2015 by KirkB

[romantic idiot]

The only thing about Oliver's expressed reason for going after Ra's (other than "saving Thea's soul), is that at least it is consistent. He threw a huge hissy, pouty fit when he lost to Malcolm in Season 1 too. (Christmas episode?). And the only reason he didn't react that way to Slade because he already knew Slade was better, and had super powers. 

 

The person i am left most sorry for now is Nyssa. If they are looking for a character to spin off, I'd follow her to her own show. 

[tennisgurl]

I would watch the crap out of a Nyssa spin off. It still makes no sense that Ra`s would randomly decide that Nyssa, Heir to the Demon, was suddenly not the right heir. But if they are going to go this way, give us more Nyssa being awesome, roaming around the world, looking for a purpose in life. 

[Chaser]

I keep picturing a scene where Ra's tells Oliver that Nyssa will control the League but still needs to provide a blood Heir so he hands him some magazines and a plastic container.

[statsgirl]

If I recall correctly, there were supposed to be two scenes in this that break the internet, and a Felicity epiphany?  Ra's offer to Oliver is one, and Raylicity sex is the other. But I didn't see Felicity have an epiphany.  Was it supposed to be that she gave Ray an epiphany?  Are we now going with 'epiphany sex', show?

 

I keep picturing a scene where Ra's tells Oliver that Nyssa will control the League but still needs to provide a blood Heir so he hands him some magazines and a plastic container.

What, not even pictures of Felicity? That's really cruel. To us shippers, that is.

 

Malcolm said to Nyssa that she should have known that her relationship with Sara would knock her out of the succession.  That suggests to me that it was the relationship itself and not being over-emotional that is the problem.  But we'll see what Berlanti does with it.

 

I can't quite wrap my head around the idea that Ra's would disinherit Nyssa, now, because she was gay. Don't misunderstand me, I could fully accept the idea of Ra's doing it for that reason, but she has been raised as Heir to the Demon her whole life and has been gay her whole life. In an isolated locale like Nanda Parbat I don't imagine Ra's was unaware Nyssa was interested in women until Sara came around, unless maybe Nyssa had in fact been completely celibate up until that point. I'd more readily think he has finally decided she is too hot tempered or emotional or something, which granted is still misogynistic, just not necessarily homophobic. 

 

On a similar note, none of this makes Ra's look too good. It's seriously disrespectful of his own daughter, and more to the point questions his own decision making. He wants an heir. I get that. He has apparently decided Nyssa is no longer worthy. But in looking around his world the best replacement he can come up with is Oliver Queen? A guy who lost his company because his couldn't be bothered to pay any attention to it, and whose team has fractured because his decisions this last season have been boneheaded at best? 

Oliver's decisions have been both bone-headed and hot-headed.  He's lost the ability, if he ever had it, to consult with his trusted advisors, and most of the assassins in the League could probably beat him in a fight. Not to mention he knows nothing of the League's history, traditions or SOPs.  

 

Even if he takes power, just how does Ra's think he's going to hold on to it?

Edited February 27, 2015 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm late to the party so I'm sure this has already been mentioned but Oliver thinking he can just waltz into Nanda Parbat and face off with Ra's al Ghul again is just so freakin' stupid. OK, I'll buy that he was tortured by the fact he was almost killed but it would have really helped if the show had given us at least 1 scene where he was having a nightmare about that. But what has changed since then? A few lessons with Malcolm where he was still getting his ass kicked?!?! What annoys me even more is that he took Diggle with him knowing what he was facing. Diggle wasn't going to let him go off alone, yes. But it was still extremely irresponsible of Oliver just because he had a death wish. It's like the show is just throwing reasons out there even if they don't make a eff ounce of sense. It's like Season 2B all over again with Slade's whole reasoning is because he was pissed about Shado.

[Password]

It's actually worse than 2b because Oliver has been stupid since the premiere. Protecting Merlyn? Ol-i-verrrr.

[Aeryn13]

This episode was a mixed bag.

 

I enjoyed all the Ollie/Diggle scenes and them being in action together. It has been too long. When Diggle said he never thought he`d find another brother, it was such an awww-moment. Also, since Dig is often used as a voice of reason, I don`t think the writers intended for the audience to question or disagree with Oliver unduly. If so, they would have used "mouthpiece" scenes to convey that, Even Felicity got onboard with the initial save-Malcolm-plan before it became going to Nanda Parbat.

 

And  don`t think Oliver meant so much that his ego was hurt about losing to Ras. The dialogue was somewhat clumsy and he even refered to it himself as "egotistical" but Diggle said that it was about losing confidence as a warrior. Which, yes, in vigilantism will probably get you killed like yesterday.

 

Now, the entire set-up is somewhat flimsy because Oliver believing in the first place that he could beat the head of the League was silly. Malcolm concocting this plan was even more ludicrous. Especially if he knew an archer couldn`t win. Well, then why this harebrained scheme to make Thea kill Sara and then use that as leverage to send Oliver into a fight to get his freedom? If he KNEW the plan had no chance of success, it`s beyond stupid.

 

While Laurel hasn`t been bugging much lately,,that phone call to her dad was annoying. "It`s been a whole week". Gee, that he didn`t get over one child lying to his face for months about the death of another in one whole week. Malcolm beating her handily was also a good scene. Not because I particularly root for him but because she continues to have no understanding of where she stands on a warrior scale. Bravado is all well and good but it can`t beat the level of training, skill and technique other people have painstakingly achieved over several years. And it`s like she doesn`t understand this. At all. At least Oliver is a trained warrior so going after Ras was foolish but he could technically have some chances.

 

I think Ras called Oliver as his heir because he was impressed by Oliver`s zeal for the mission. While he disapproved of Sara and Nyssa`s relationship with her, I think if Nyssa had disregarded his orders or challenged him over not doing enough to avenge Sara or even fearing he had ordered the hit herself back then, he would have respected that deep down. We got three major scenes with Ras, one with Oliver, one with Nyssa and one with Malcolm. And I think those were significant. Nyssa was emotional and Malcolm did beg for his life, you could tell Ras wasn`t into either response. In comparism Oliver was more or less his stoic self and THAT went over splendidly.

 

Finally, Ray and Felicity? Eh. That felt like a different, much goofier show and Ray just continues to not interest me at all. Also, the knock-off Ironman suit? Eh. When they introduced Barry for the intended spin-off last year, somehow it went much better. 

[Ang]

A few pet peeves about the episode:

 

1. Not really buying Ray as a billionaire, especially with him being always alone. He has no discernible support staff or hangers on. I may not know any billionaires, but the millionaires I know are constantly working with a stable crew carefully acquired over many years. How is Felicity the only one checking in on him?
2. Malcolm Merlin is a mass murderer, an ongoing menace to society, and quite possibly a sociopath. Why on earth should she ever feel guilty about turning him over to an authority that will hold him accountable for his actions? How is this significantly different from turning him to the police (if they could hold him)? 
3. I am so desperately over all talk of light and souls. As presented it is metaphysical garbage that only a fourth grader would find deep. Is that really the target demographic here? The terms may work occasionally when used as metaphors, but I think the writers have started taking their favorite overused phrases a little too literally. (Harness that light inside you, buddy, or you'll touch the darkness and break off a piece of your soul! Coming from one overly dramatic character, fine, but it feels like they're giving every character the same lines. Different people have different ways of understanding the same concepts, and it's too bad they can't explore that a little. 

 

 

I dont know how the production at Arrow works for scripts. But I remember the Office & other shows mentioned they have something like a multi-tiered writing process where stories are assigned to writers, they write the script, someone outside of that particular eps reads/reports back & then the primary team then takes back over & is responsible for the final script. I wonder if Arrow had a similar process if it would help with some of these tonal, characters & continuity problems. It just seems like somewhere between the story boarding & the final script something goes a little off on some of the characters or plot points.

Couldn't agree more, @kismet!

 

I've appreciated the comments about the comics. Ra's (hilarious inconsistency in the pronunciation of his name, Show) is a nonentity to me; I found myself wondering if I missed the episode that made him scary or at least explained his deal a little. I'm also loving a clip I saw of SA acting out the audience's emotional reactions to the latest episodes. His reaction for 3x15 was a hilariously flat, "wait, what?" that couldn't have been more accurate. The Offer wasn't so much a shocker as it was a head scratcher. I'm liking some of the analyses I've seen here about what he may be looking for in Oliver, because I didn't pick up ANY of that from the show itself.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ang

[AyChihuahua]

 

He threw a huge hissy, pouty fit when he lost to Malcolm in Season 1 too.

He wasn't really pouty, he got the yips.  He couldn't hit his tennis balls anymore.  I think that showed that his confidence was broken and he was scared, which I'm okay with.  The problem for me is that they haven't done anything like that here.  He's basically seemed fine until he busted out the weird "I need to face him again" crap.

[InsertWordHere]

Can you image how Oliver would react if he had lost to Nyssa? Losing to Ra's drove him to ask a mass murderer for training. I'd hate to find out what losing to a girl would do to his fragile male ego.

IDK, he always seemed fine when Shado was tougher than him and making him slap a bowl of water constantly and he did ask Tatsu to train him. Oliver's got a lot of problems, but having ego issues with women who can kick his ass doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he would be traumatized by anyone who stabbed him through the chest and pushed him off a cliff, regardless of gender. 

 

On a similar note, none of this makes Ra's look too good. It's seriously disrespectful of his own daughter, and more to the point questions his own decision making. He wants an heir. I get that. He has apparently decided Nyssa is no longer worthy. But in looking around his world the best replacement he can come up with is Oliver Queen? A guy who lost his company because his couldn't be bothered to pay any attention to it, and whose team has fractured because his decisions this last season have been boneheaded at best? 

The fact that both Merlyn and Slade, the Arrow's two biggest enemies, still live should be a red flag in Ra's('s?) (really how do you show possession with that name?) eyes. Then again, the fact that Merlyn and the man Ra's stabbed through the chest and pushed off a cliff are both still breathing doesn't exactly inspire confidence in Ra's' (maybe?) ability to lead a league of assassins. Maybe that's why he wants to quit.

[Ang]

IDK, he always seemed fine when Shado was tougher than him and making him slap a bowl of water constantly and he did ask Tatsu to train him. Oliver's got a lot of problems, but having ego issues with women who can kick his ass doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he would be traumatized by anyone who stabbed him through the chest and pushed him off a cliff, regardless of gender.

I read somewhere that in the comics Oliver got off on Black Canary being able to kick his butt...OMG he's all upset because Ra's has him confused about his sexuality!!!

The fact that both Merlyn and Slade, the Arrow's two biggest enemies, still live should be a red flag in Ra's('s?) (really how do you show possession with that name?) eyes. Then again, the fact that Merlyn and the man Ra's stabbed through the chest and pushed off a cliff are both still breathing doesn't exactly inspire confidence in Ra's' (maybe?) ability to lead a league of assassins. Maybe that's why he wants to quit.

Heh, the incompetent dickwad found a new incompetent dickwad to take his place.

And with a name like Ra's I'm pretty sure possessive apostraphies are too informal. It's "in the eyes of Ra's" for sure. ;-)

[thegreathoo]

Great episode, they tied it all together.

[CabotCove]

I just feel like in this case is being used just to pile up reasons for disliking the character and the pairing. I don't think there would be such outrage if her boss were still Oliver, because, as much as it is a problematic situation in real life, it's pretty common in television, and would be most easily overlooked had it happened to the favorite ship.

Ditto.

Otherwise she should start dating R0y. No chance of dating her boss there.

Ra's' disapproval of Nyssa's relationship with Sara because he knew that Sara would leave her and break her heart makes no sense since Sara returned with Nyssa to the LOA at the end of Season 2 - and they were apparently quite happy together

Not how I remember it. Sara was forced to go back to the league in exchange for her "beloved" Nyssa and the league, helping her to fight for Starling city.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Conell

[Aeryn13]

 

Malcolm Merlin is a mass murderer, an ongoing menace to society, and quite possibly a sociopath. Why on earth should she ever feel guilty about turning him over to an authority that will hold him accountable for his actions? How is this significantly different from turning him to the police (if they could hold him)?

 

Handing him over to the police would ultimately mean standing trial for his crimes, then going to prison. Not sure if Starling has the death sentence or something but it is markedly different than handing him over to the League where you know he will be slowly tortured to death, As for why she would have guilt, because he is her father and that apparently means something to Thea despite everything. She regretted her own decision even in this very episode. If Malcolm was a stranger to them/her, it would be very different. 

 

For me the most effective villains are those who have an emotional connection to the heroes, especially if that was formerly a positive one. That`s why I cared little about Deathstroke`s superpowers but that he used to be a good friend to Oliver. That would be like Diggle becoming his sworn enemy down the line. 

 

Malcolm was likely a family friend, to the Queen children and recently Thea tried to build something with him. Despite only learning recently he is her Bio-Dad and despite his lies and heinous actions - when she went into that car with him, she already knew he was a mass-murderer, didn`t stop her because she thought as his daughter, THEIR relationship would be different - I believe she does feel something for him. So regret and pain would always be mixed in if the League killed him after she handed him over.

 

I could completely understand Oliver`s reasoning there and Thea`s reaction later in the scene with Roy proved him right.   

 

 

I read somewhere that in the comics Oliver got off on Black Canary being able to kick his butt...OMG he's all upset because Ra's has him confused about his sexuality!!!

 

Being almost killed by your opponent would significantly break the confidence a warrior/fighter has in himself. That`s not surprising to me. It made sense with Malcolm in the first Season too. They just badly set this up here as the PTSD it was supposed to be. 

 

When Thea was easily bested by the League plant, she immediately realized she needed to train more.

 

That`s what bugs me so much about Laurel/Black Canary right now. She has ridiculous notions of fighting capabilities. "The league is no problem, just stand against them". Neither Thea nor Oliver are good enough to do that. And Laurel herself is nowhere near the level of even Thea. She was lucky Malcollm just toyed with her and then Nyssa showed up. But I didn`t get the impression being so easily bested got through her skull either.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Aeryn13

[kismet]

I think they were using a more meta form of the word EGO when explaining OQ alternative reason for NP & facing Ras again. I dont necessarily believe that it was that he needed to win & beat Ras. I think it was almost that he wanted to regain the confidence he lost. The defeat shattered him to his very essence, it wasn't just a loss - he "died". Maseo & Tatsu resurrected him from the near death. I mean that's a harrowing experience, which is why when he returned and was so nonchalant about it, it drove me crazy! Of course nobody understood his motivations, he never bothered to tell them just how close to death he was. Its not about just winning. Its like when you were a kid and something bad happened like you fell off a bike. What was one of the first things you were told to do? Get back up & try again, otherwise all you remember is the failure. Even if your second attempt is not perfect, u still would have achieved overcoming the disaster of the 1st attempt.  If you dont face the fear/failure it will always follow you around. The defeat/fall he suffered to Ras was like our simple falls only way deeper & more complicated. As someone who has been beaten, tortured & left for dead so many times, OQ has a good barometer of simple loss v. soul crushing moment. Its not the failure that is haunting him, its that it stripped him of some of his fundamental being. It was something else almost a powerlessness that will cripple him if he doesnt get it back. And as Dig mentioned, in his line of work its a necessity. When entering situations where life & death are the stakes like he does every time he dons the hood, you have to believe that you will be the one victorious coming home alive. Did the writers do a great job explaining this NO. Did their use of EGO help - not the way they wrote it. He wasn't just some meathead wanting to settle the score - he was trying to regain his mojo/ego/identity/strength/power you can phrase it a million ways but in the end it was all about making sure his proper mindset was returned and not being haunted by that fall.

[catrox14]

I think they were using a more meta form of the word EGO when explaining OQ alternative reason for NP & facing Ras again. I dont necessarily believe that it was that he needed to win & beat Ras. I think it was almost that he wanted to regain the confidence he lost. The defeat shattered him to his very essence, it wasn't just a loss - he "died". Maseo & Tatsu resurrected him from the near death. I mean that's a harrowing experience, which is why when he returned and was so nonchalant about it, it drove me crazy! Of course nobody understood his motivations, he never bothered to tell them just how close to death he was. Its not about just winning. Its like when you were a kid and something bad happened like you fell off a bike. What was one of the first things you were told to do? Get back up & try again, otherwise all you remember is the failure. Even if your second attempt is not perfect, u still would have achieved overcoming the disaster of the 1st attempt.  If you dont face the fear/failure it will always follow you around. The defeat/fall he suffered to Ras was like our simple falls only way deeper & more complicated. As someone who has been beaten, tortured & left for dead so many times, OQ has a good barometer of simple loss v. soul crushing moment. Its not the failure that is haunting him, its that it stripped him of some of his fundamental being. It was something else almost a powerlessness that will cripple him if he doesnt get it back. And as Dig mentioned, in his line of work its a necessity. When entering situations where life & death are the stakes like he does every time he dons the hood, you have to believe that you will be the one victorious coming home alive. Did the writers do a great job explaining this NO. Did their use of EGO help - not the way they wrote it. He wasn't just some meathead wanting to settle the score - he was trying to regain his mojo/ego/identity/strength/power you can phrase it a million ways but in the end it was all about making sure his proper mindset was returned and not being haunted by that fall.

 

If they hadn't been shoving the Atom and Laurel as BC down our throats and creating a stupid love triangle they should have written so much good stuff for Oliver. He could have told Felicity....I am not the same and this is the only way I can be who I was before.  But NOPE they put her with Ray to boost Ray's likeability instead of letting her and Oliver be at odds over how he rebuilds himself after being "killed by Ras" but trying to support each other.  And the whole thing of TA getting stronger without Oliver sure couldn't have helped him think he was a sufficient leader and warrior anymore. 

 

So much wasted with Oliver in his OWN SHOW>

[KirkB]

I think this episode is a good indicator, to me at least, that the problem isn't so much Ray or Laurel but Ray and Laurel. That is, I think the show could handle the side story of someone besides Oliver taking on a mask. One other origin story going on within his. Not that I personally care, neither this incarnation of the Atom or the Canary are of any interest to me, but neither character is being done any justice because they aren't getting the story time they need to really develop their characters. So we have bits and pieces of en episode which should have been built around Oliver's infiltration of the League's headquarters instead randomly going to Ray and his silly suit and Laurel doing something so monumentally stupid like taking Malcolm on by herself.

Edited February 28, 2015 by KirkB

[steelyis]

IDK, he always seemed fine when Shado was tougher than him and making him slap a bowl of water constantly and he did ask Tatsu to train him. Oliver's got a lot of problems, but having ego issues with women who can kick his ass doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he would be traumatized by anyone who stabbed him through the chest and pushed him off a cliff, regardless of gender. 

 

 

IMO Oliver had a different kind of ego when he first got to the island; he was a rich spoiled brat, but that wouldn't help him learn how to fight, so he acquiesced to Shado, who could.

 

To be fair Oliver's probably not a sexist asshole. It's more likely the men making Arrow are, and they don't want to show their lead lose to a woman. Even if that woman was trained to fight and kill, by the man who trounced Oliver's upstart ass no less, since she could walk and has at least a decade of fighting experience over Oliver.

 

(Praying to Gob Lady Shiva is spared Arrow's sexist nonsense)

[catrox14]

IMO Oliver had a different kind of ego when he first got to the island; he was a rich spoiled brat, but that wouldn't help him learn how to fight, so he acquiesced to Shado, who could.

 

To be fair Oliver's probably not a sexist asshole. It's more likely the men making Arrow are, and they don't want to show their lead lose to a woman. Even if that woman was trained to fight and kill, by the man who trounced Oliver's upstart ass no less, since she could walk and has at least a decade of fighting experience over Oliver.

 

(Praying to Gob Lady Shiva is spared Arrow's sexist nonsense)

 

But Oliver has lost to women in the show before he got better. I'm not understanding that idea that Oliver won't be allowed to lose to a woman in a fair fight.

[Aeryn13]

 

It's more likely the men making Arrow are, and they don't want to show their lead lose to a woman. Even if that woman was trained to fight and kill, by the man who trounced Oliver's upstart ass no less, since she could walk and has at least a decade of fighting experience over Oliver.

 

Didn`t Nyssa kind of lose to Malcolm earlier this Season? Whereas now she clearly beat him. I don`t think there is such a clear hierarchy here. They have all had extensive training and skills which means fights between them could go either way with a little luck/bad luck. Oliver can get the drop on Nyssa but in a rematch she could beat him. Sara may have beaten Oliver in one fight but could lose to him in another. Tatsu might just be as good as Oliver, Maseo etc, maybe even as good as Nyssa. And so on and so forth.

 

Thea is already a pretty good fighter for only a few months of training but couldn`t beat either Malcolm, Oliver or Nyssa. Couldn`t have beaten Sara either. Roy maybe slightly above Thea in terms of experience but less than the League warriors or Oliver. Laurel is the least skilled right now. Comparing anyone with Ras is unfair because apparently he has gotten a looooong time of training. None of the others have that advantage. 

 

By which I mean, I don`t see any of that as sexism. You have lots of women kicking ass in the fighting sense on this show. Others show strength and skills in other ways like Felicity. Moira was strong, too.

[steelyis]

But Oliver has lost to women in the show before he got better.

 

 

I honestly don't remember Oliver fighting and losing to a woman before he became a vigilante, so maybe that's true, but every woman Oliver's fought since he became Arrow he beat with absolutely no problem, and I wonder why that is.

 

 

I'm not understanding that idea that Oliver won't be allowed to lose to a woman in a fair fight.

 

 

Because with her training and experience Nyssa should mop the floor with Oliver, yet he beats her in less than two minutes without breaking sweat. It makes no damn sense and suggests there's massive amounts sexist fuckery going on.

 

 

Didn`t Nyssa kind of lose to Malcolm earlier this Season? Whereas now she clearly beat him. I don`t think there is such a clear hierarchy here.

 

 

Inconsistent, sloppy writing will do that.

[Aeryn13]

I think the writing is weaker this Season, mostly due to them clumsily trying to cram in two origin stories for other characters but I do not believe this was an example of it. Nor do I see it as sexism. Nyssa still attained her goal - getting Malcolm back to the League - whereas Oliver failed his. So, in that way, she did beat him where it counts. And even when she was imprisoned, her position was not one of weakness. Her and Oliver still talked to each other as equals.

 

So far in the show, I found it mostly believable in who won or lost a fight. If Laurel had successfully beaten Malcolm here, that would have been something I found ridiculous. If he survives - which I kinda think right now - then I would love to see Sara back and them facing off against each other. She could do her own avenging. 

[romantic idiot]

Moving away from the conversation a little, there's one thing that's been driving me batty. I've been the good little soldier, closing my ears to the way they pronounce Nanda Parbat, telling myself it's not necessarily in / close to India, despite Parbat meaning mountain in a couple of Indian languages. But they went and revealed that it's in the Hindukush, so dammit, I'm tired of them butchering the name. I wish they'd just shorten it to NP so that I don't have to listen to it anymore. 

[steelyis]

I think the writing is weaker this Season, mostly due to them clumsily trying to cram in two origin stories for other characters but I do not believe this was an example of it. Nor do I see it as sexism. Nyssa still attained her goal - getting Malcolm back to the League - whereas Oliver failed his. So, in that way, she did beat him where it counts.

 

 

I don't care about Nyssa and the League grabbing Malcolm, I care even less about Oliver's failure to rescue him, I do care Arrow refuses to have a woman pose a threat to Oliver's skills as a fighter even when it makes perfect sense for her to do so.

 

 

And even when she was imprisoned, her position was not one of weakness. Her and Oliver still talked to each other as equals.

 

 

 

I doubt Oliver and Diggle felt equal to Ra's chained down in Ra's dungeon, so why would Nyssa while she's locked in a cage in Oliver's basement? Agree to disagree.

Edited March 1, 2015 by steelyis

[Sakura12]

Why is Nyssa locked up in the Arrow Lair? Is it because she dared to capture the man that killed her girlfriend?

[statsgirl]

I think so. Apparently only men are allowed not to be locked up, just like men get to live.  Look at Ra's, who should be killing Oliver for defying him, and instead he's taking away the succession from Nyssa and giving it to Oliver,

[Aeryn13]

 

I do care Arrow refuses to have a woman pose a threat to Oliver's skills as a fighter even when it makes perfect sense for her to do so.

 

I don`t think the show does that at all so agree to disagree. 

 

 

I doubt Oliver and Diggle felt equal to Ra's chained down in Ra's dungeon, so why would Nyssa while she's locked in a cage in Oliver's basement?

 

I meant she wasn`t cowed. Just as Oliver and Diggle weren`t in the dungeon. Obviously, they were all prisoners respectively but I do see their response as similar. The only prisoner who WAS cowed by the situation he found himself in was a man, Malcolm. Everyone. ,man and woman alike, showed more dignity than him in the face of real danger. 

 

 

Why is Nyssa locked up in the Arrow Lair? Is it because she dared to capture the man that killed her girlfriend?

 

I think they planned to stall her for the time being, get intel from her and get on with their silly rescue mission. Since they banked on the element of surprise, it wouldn`t be prudent to let Nyssa go and have her warn the Leage. Then afterwards, they likely planned to release her. Noone said anything about this was smart, it`s seriously short-sighted but I can see the logic behind it. 

 

Something I didn`t get from Nyssa was that in the beginning, she was all ragey that Oliver aka "Sara`s killer" still lived. Seriously? She believed his ridiculous fake confession after all? Are you kidding me? She has known him a bit and known his relationship with Sara. Ras had no such previous history and he was all "bullshit" when Oliver came up with that. Fought him on principle anyway. Besides, Nyssa would know that Sara wouldn`t, in all likelihood, want Oliver killed so this scene was just odd. Her vengeance against Malcolm makes perfect sense and vengeance against Oliver for trying to protect Merlyn makes sense but not that.

 

 

Apparently only men are allowed not to be locked up

 

In this very episode Oliver and Diggle as well as Malcolm were locked up. All are men. 

 

Again, if they actually planned to make a sneak attack on Nanda Parbat, they couldn`t have let Nyssa go beforehand. That has nothing to do with her gender. If they had captured a male assassin, he would equally be held in the meantime. 

 

If they had let Nyssa go where I KNOW they would have imprisoned a man, then it would be sexist to me because it would reek of "lets not take the little woman seriously".  

Edited February 28, 2015 by Aeryn13

[statsgirl]

What if Oliver and Diggle got killed on the mission? Was everyone just going to leave Nyssa in the cage indefinitely?  Was there no back-up plan? Was there no gratitude for helping them save the city against Slade's soldiers?

 

Once they had (not tortured) Nanda Parbat's location out of her, why didn't they at least give her some privacy.  Maybe a toilet too.

 

Besides, Nyssa would know that Sara wouldn`t, in all likelihood, want Oliver killed so this scene was just odd. Her vengeance against Malcolm makes perfect sense and vengeance against Oliver for trying to protect Merlyn makes sense but not that.

Poor Katrina Law. Now it's Nyssa's turn to be written for plot rather than character.

[Aeryn13]

 

What if Oliver and Diggle got killed on the mission? Was everyone just going to leave Nyssa in the cage indefinitely?  Was there no back-up plan? Was there no gratitude for helping them save the city against Slade's soldiers?

 

Since that help was bought for at the price of Sara returning to the League, something she was not too keen on doing even if she loved Nyssa, I think everyone figured they were all square. 

 

Had Oliver and Diggle not returned, I think Nyssa would have been let go. There is still Roy, Felicity, Laurel or Thea to do so.

 

 

Once they had (not tortured) Nanda Parbat's location out of her, why didn't they at least give her some privacy.  Maybe a toilet too.

 

I think that`s a common failure of TV capture, though. Over on Flash, they keep their villains locked in little cells with nothing in them, no bed, no toilet, no nothing. I even question if they feed them. They may have superpowers but they still have human bodies. And yet they seem fine weeks/months later. Whenever I see those scenes, I wanna headdesk because IMO the writers simply forgot about basic human necessities.

 

The same thing is happening here. Besides, TV characters when the plot calls for it, seem able to go for years without using a toilet. Arrow isn`t the only offender.,  

Edited February 28, 2015 by Aeryn13

[yellowfred]

Why is Nyssa locked up in the Arrow Lair? Is it because she dared to capture the man that killed her girlfriend?

 

Yeah, basically.  Oliver's decided that he's the only one who's allowed to get justice for Sara's death, and he's going to do it by training with the guy who orchestrated her murder to get rid of the only people with the will and means to punish him for it. 

[Lii]

Oliver: "So, Dig, I probably should have told you this BEFORE bringing you here under false pretenses to be imprisoned and likely killed, but I actually don't care about Thea, we're here because of my angsty CW feelings of personal inadequacy and penis envy. These feelings are completely only related to falling off a mountain and never existed before.

Diggle: "Ollie, you've actually always been a douche. Just saying. It is known. Bromance4lyfe tho, at least I'm finally getting screen time."

Oliver: "The CW has an angst quota, Dig, try to get on board."

Diggle: "Um. Tragic wedding episode?"

Oliver: "Your training is complete."