S02.E18: Tempus Fugit

[DeLurker]

I love you, phoenics. In a totally platonic 18th century fashion. 

<snip>

They're going to have to be very careful with the first episode of Season 3 (can anyone doubt it now?). If they spend much more than 10 minutes on Katrina, people will tune out. They've got to push ahead hard in the opening minutes, showing us that "the Crane we know and dislike" is gone with Katrina and the map that never was. All of us will be wondering who really is in charge now?

 

================================

 

ETA: Mison did his best acting with Winters after she was dead.  That says it all right there.

Are you saying we shouldn't ship you two?  Damn!

 

If they get the 3rd, it will be very interesting to see how Katrina's death is addressed.  I've got confidence in TM to handle it, but I don't have th confidence in TPTB & writers to hit the right balance.

 

And totally agree with that being the most emotion between TM & KW.  Granted Katrina was dead or on her way there, so it was all TM.

[Crackedmuse]

I thought the hug was epic.

 

When Crane bids "Miss Mills" farewell, Abbie is suddenly aware these may be the last words he ever says to her.  There was no guarantee the reversal spell would work, and if Crane was about to walk out the door to his death, she did not want their goodbyes to be as strangers.

 

What we now realize is that Leftenant is not simply an acknowledgement of Abbie's rank, but also a nickname - which for Abbie, and no doubt Crane as well - signifies the closeness and comfort of their relationship and bond. He is the only person who addresses her this way. It is a preference and a delight.  So should they never see each other again, Abbie needed to say goodbye to Crane.  Her Crane.

 

The Captain reacted appropriately.  He didn't understand what Abbie was doing, but no matter.  Crane would understand - even if it took 250 years for him to do so.  And that is the person she hugged.

[Sparkling Beth]

Crackedmuse, I clicked Thumbs Up to like your post, but I want you to know that I didn't just like it, I loved it.  You summed up Abbie and Ichabod's relationship so perfectly.  The hug was done just right because 18th Century Crane simply does not know Abbie the way she knows him.  She has the benefit of having interacted with 21st Century Crane, whereas 18th Century Crane, despite having come to believe her and respect her, still doesn't know Abbie the person.  

[SouthernGal]

I thought the hug was epic.

 

When Crane bids "Miss Mills" farewell, Abbie is suddenly aware these may be the last words he ever says to her.  There was no guarantee the reversal spell would work, and if Crane was about to walk out the door to his death, she did not want their goodbyes to be as strangers.

 

What we now realize is that Leftenant is not simply an acknowledgement of Abbie's rank, but also a nickname - which for Abbie, and no doubt Crane as well - signifies the closeness and comfort of their relationship and bond. He is the only person who addresses her this way. It is a preference and a delight.  So should they never see each other again, Abbie needed to say goodbye to Crane.  Her Crane.

 

The Captain reacted appropriately.  He didn't understand what Abbie was doing, but no matter.  Crane would understand - even if it took 250 years for him to do so.  And that is the person she hugged.

 

Beautifully stated!

[HalcyonDays]

I totally disagree with this reading of the scene. Ichabod actually risked his own life to save Abbie. Katrina didn't try to kill Crane first here. She went after Abbie first. He put himself between Abbie and Katrina. If he wanted to save his own ass first he could have just run and let Abbie die. And then figured out a way to stop Katrina.

Instead he put himself, at his own peril, between Katrina and Abbie. He wanted to reason with Katrina before resorting to killing her. But there is no way in Hell you'll convince me he wasn't saving Abbie for Abbie sake. Like I understand hating a character but what we saw in screen IMO was crane risking his own life to save Abbie because that is who Katrina was trying to kill first.

 

I think Crane finally finally realized that Katrina was a lost cause and that in the heat of the moment, with Abbie's life in jeopardy, he reacted. He was trying to stop her from hurting/killing Abbie and the show made it look like it was an accident, to not make Crane look too cold blooded. But her death needed to be done.

 

What a wasted opportunity for the character of Katrina. Since day one, I've been saying Shady!Katrina is most welcome - bring it! - and there were hints dropped left right and centre. Instead, Goffman decided to live a fantasy and make her the perfect woman, worshipped on a pedestal, who could do not wrong. Yet, we've seen the last two episodes, and Winter can do the evil angry and smug witch so well. And I bet you she had fun with it. But no - Goffman and co decided to live thieir own fantasy through her, and destroy the show in the process. What could have been.

 

And I agree - Mison reaction to Katrina's death was go heartbreaking that I didn't cheer at all - was just on the edge of my seat. He was so good overall. When it's 18th century Crane, he was so good with portraying that confident, comfortable self because he was in his element. He's in his own time, so nothing is strange - only Abbie is. Loved seeing him so confident and assure and - for want of a better word - slightly colder. But then every once in a while, a little of the quirky Crane pops in, reminding us it's still the same guy, but without a couple of years in the 21st century. When he comes rushing in to save Abbie from the cell, his annoyed reactions to Franklin, and when he's handing over those dried flowers to Grace. Loved it. He's such a good actor (I'll stop gushing now).

 

I loved this episode. I could comment on a lot of it (and this is the first SH episode in a long time where I have overwhelmingly positive things to say) but I can't get over how touching that final scene is. Yes, the episode set a (mostly) clean slate for further S3 adventures if there is to be one. If there isn't it is still a beautiful ending to me for this reason:

 

When Abbie says, "You ready, Captain?" it just gets to me. There is so much said with that. It's the first time in the 21st century Crane's character as a man has been acknowledged since possibly the pilot. Straight up respect for him in a way that hasn't been overtly said before. Though Abbie has always realized and respected his humanity, she had no frame of reference to realize and respect how much he lost as a Captain with nothing to command. His command was his identity, the backbone of who he was as a person. It was the one thing I think he felt he created about himself for himself. Abbie calling him Captain means so much more for them going forward.

 

When Crane turns around, you can see on his face that he is registering that too.

 

It was beautifully acted and stays with me.

 

Me too - everything you said. Abbie has seen Ichabod in is element, and has learned a bit more about him and his life there, which was nice. Also, Abbie realizes that despite the strange circumstances, Crane is a good man, and that they have a strong bond. For him to risk his life, his military position, his family, etc, for a strangely dressed woman speaks volumes. He made the right decision, just like Abbie made the right decision when Crane first showed up, however insane everything was around the,.

 

I don't think the hug was imbalance. That was Abbie's choice to hug him. And I don't think she particularly expected a hug back either.  It was like in the Sin Eater. She was overwhelmed with emotion and was worried she might never see her partner again. Hugging the Ichabod of the past was not something he expected, so I don't think it makes him a cold fish to not hug her back.  The Present Crane would hug her back.

 

The hug was not shipper-epic or as desperate as the one in This Is War, but it's how Crane would have reacted. Present day Crane would hug back NOW, because he's comfortable with Abbie but think about the Sin-Eater hug. Abbie runs over to give him a hug. Look at this face - he's like wide-eyed for a moment of "what the hell", then takes a few seconds to respond. And he knows Abbie at this point. A strange dressed "crazy" woman from the "future" suddenly squeezes him to death - the react was exactly what I expected. He's reserved and about propriety.

 

I did get a kick out of Abbie half-squeezing the life out of him - thought that was hilarious. Also does he ever tower over her. Crazy. Camera's on Abbie's face straight on, and all you see is his coat buttons - not even the neck area but middle chest. And then she adjusted his coat before he goes for the Horseman. Loved that.

 

Excellent episode. I think this one was my favourite of the SERIES, to be honest. I would buy the DVD's just for this one (Hear that FOX). This show and characters have so much potential - I really hope FOX renews it for at least one more season to see where we can go.

[sinkwriter]

 

He is not repelled by it, he is totally caught by surprise mentally and physically.

 

Exactly. And given that it's Past Crane, not Current Day Crane, he's known Abbie for... what? Less than a day? I would have stiffened up in surprise if a stranger hugged me too. Especially back then when demonstrations of affection were less out in the open. I like what Sparkling Beth said:

 

 

She has the benefit of having interacted with 21st Century Crane, whereas 18th Century Crane, despite having come to believe her and respect her, still doesn't know Abbie the person.

 

Right on.  :)

[Indi]

I totally disagree with this reading of the scene. Ichabod actually risked his own life to save Abbie. Katrina didn't try to kill Crane first here. She went after Abbie first. He put himself between Abbie and Katrina. If he wanted to save his own ass first he could have just run and let Abbie die. And then figured out a way to stop Katrina.

Instead he put himself, at his own peril, between Katrina and Abbie. He wanted to reason with Katrina before resorting to killing her. But there is no way in Hell you'll convince me he wasn't saving Abbie for Abbie sake. Like I understand hating a character but what we saw in screen IMO was crane risking his own life to save Abbie because that is who Katrina was trying to kill first.

 

I guess my point is, Katrina went for Abbie first, but she was going to kill him too, so it was self defense. It was either Katrina or him and Abbie, because his wife put them in the same package. But what would he have done if Katrina only had tried to kill Abbie? What if she had told him they could be together and have a child again? Would he have moved a finger? Maybe, but in the end, he would have sided with Katrina, like he has always done, no matter the collateral damage. This scenario makes more sense with his characterization this season, than his sudden out of nowhere choice to save Abbie for Abbie's sake.

 

I don't think the hug was imbalance. That was Abbie's choice to hug him. And I don't think she particularly expected a hug back either. It was like in the Sin Eater. She was overwhelmed with emotion and was worried she might never see her partner again. Hugging the Ichabod of the past was not something he expected, so I don't think it makes him a cold fish to not hug her back. The Present Crane would hug her back.

 

I didn't expect him to hug her back (in the present or in the past), but at least show some warmth? I wish they hadn't included it at all. It was more of the same obsession this show has with proving Abbie's commitment to him and the mission, when that's not what has been in question for a season and a half. The show should have focused on his, instead of making him so flaky and weak.

[xtwheeler]

I just have to join in and say how much I loved this. We learned so much about *our* Crane and Abbie with the tables turned. I freaking loved "slide to unlock" --the perfect call-back to our Crane out of time.

I hadn't even realized how low the bar was for this season. As someone else said I was basically watching out of habit, and this episode snapped me out of it!

I think they have lots of great places to go next season, including the Mills sisters as developing witches, the "awakened" witches, others who know what the true war is about. I'm so optimistic. This was like a love letter to the fans after we'd nearly left them for dead. Oh, also super excited about the possibility that Abbie could get Grace out of stone. I hope that's why they had the reminder about it last week with Frank. I'd love to see her awakened and teaching the Mills ladies about the practice.

[catrox14]

 

I guess my point is, Katrina went for Abbie first, but she was going to kill him too, so it was self defense. It was either Katrina or him and Abbie, because his wife put them in the same package. But what would he have done if Katrina only had tried to kill Abbie? What if she had told him they could be together and have a child again? Would he have moved a finger? Maybe, but in the end, he would have sided with Katrina, like he has always done, no matter the collateral damage. This scenario makes more sense with his characterization this season, than his sudden out of nowhere choice to save Abbie for Abbie's sake.

 

But it does go back to the Ichabod of s1 that did put Abbie first until he was sucked into Katrina's vortex of stupidity. I think it's like Halcyon Days said that Ichabod finally really GOT who Katrina was now.  But I believe the catalyst to the realization was Abbie's life being choked out of her.  I also think it's a way harsh reading of Ichabod's characterization throughout s2 that never meshed with the Ichabod of s1, so to me this behavior was far more like the Ichabod of s1.

 

 I disagree that he was not motivated by Abbie being attacked first and that it was only when he was threatened that he acted.

[blixie]

 

but she was going to kill him too, so it was self defense.

 

Again no, present day Ichabod at that moment has no idea she is trying to murder him as well as Abbie. 1700's Ichabod knew that, and then 2015 Ichabod forgot about it because it was erased. He reacted to Abbie's life being threatened and that alone. In that moment in that scene all Katrina said is Abbie killed her son, and SHE must die, not " I'm gonna kill your ass too".

 

I understand the reluctance to see Ichabod (particularly S2 Ichabod) in a good light, but I genuinely believe he put Abbie before Katrina and before himself in that scene and I'm hopeful we can see that continue to be the case in the future.

 

Again I thought the emotions on Mison's face said everything during the hug that the rest of his body didn't have the language for.

[HalcyonDays]

But it does go back to the Ichabod of s1 that did put Abbie first until he was sucked into Katrina's vortex of stupidity. I think it's like Halcyon Days said that Ichabod finally really GOT who Katrina was now.

 

I Love this. Katrina's vortex of stupidity. So so true!! LOL That's was one of the many problems with - Ichabod became a fool in her presence and made poor decisions (kinda like Katrina herself). The last three episodes were (amongst other things) about Ichabod finally getting a clue. That's why last week when Crane's like "I didn't KNOW you Henry" it's was most of us have been saying all along. Mison himself is quoted as saying he was thankful to the writers for that line, because he knows how badly Ichabod has been written this season, even saying that Crane's been weak.

 

Ichabod saving Abbie was season 1 Ichabod. No wonder most reviews and opinions say episode 18 was like season 1.

[Criminey]

When Abbie says, "You ready, Captain?" it just gets to me. There is so much said with that. It's the first time in the 21st century Crane's character as a man has been acknowledged since possibly the pilot. Straight up respect for him in a way that hasn't been overtly said before

 

Yes!! So much This!

 

That was such a great scene.  I could feel it -- respect, friendship, affection.

 

I'm hoping if they plan a closer relationship between Abbie and Crane, it's a slow build up over several seasons. (I'm being optimistic, because I never want this show to end. :)

 

[jhlipton]

Winter can do the evil angry and smug witch so well. And I bet you she had fun with it. But no - Goffman and co decided to live thieir own fantasy through her, and destroy the show in the process. What could have been.

 

This kind of damning with faint praise.  "Evil angry and smug" are fairly easy to do -- it's the little touches that make Beharie and Mison fun to watch.  I really think Winters is a fairly weak actress --"evil angry and smug" may be the extent of her range.

 

It was more of the same obsession this show has with proving Abbie's commitment to him and the mission, when that's not what has been in question for a season and a half. The show should have focused on his, instead of making him so flaky and weak.

 

This is all part of the same package -- the glorification of the StruggleWitch, the marginaliztion of Abbie, Jenny and Frank, and the destruction of Ichabod's character.  I wouldn't blame you if you sat out the first couple of episodes next season -- there's no guarantee that Goffman won't be involved.  But I hope, and believe, that the Crane we saw in the last two episodes (who was very  much the Crane of the first half-season or so) will be the Crane we get from here on out.

 

To a certain extent, it doesn't matter IF the Crane Family (and therefore the CFD) is dead, dead and gone.

[BrokenRemote]

I just have to join in and say how much I loved this. We learned so much about *our* Crane and Abbie with the tables turned. I freaking loved "slide to unlock" --the perfect call-back to our Crane out of time.

I hadn't even realized how low the bar was for this season. As someone else said I was basically watching out of habit, and this episode snapped me out of it!

I think they have lots of great places to go next season, including the Mills sisters as developing witches, the "awakened" witches, others who know what the true war is about. I'm so optimistic. This was like a love letter to the fans after we'd nearly left them for dead. Oh, also super excited about the possibility that Abbie could get Grace out of stone. I hope that's why they had the reminder about it last week with Frank. I'd love to see her awakened and teaching the Mills ladies about the practice.

 

I'm pretty sure that wasn't Grace in stone in the Gorgon's Lair.  There was a lot of talk in one of the other threads--can't recall which one--but Grace died in the fire Henry set, and the ancestor in stone was said to have, I believe, 19th century clothing.  So it may be another ancestor named Grace, but it won't be the Grace we know.

[proserpina65]

I guess my point is, Katrina went for Abbie first, but she was going to kill him too, so it was self defense.

 

He had no way of knowing that.  He saw Katrina attacking Abbie, and Abbie only, and stepped in to save her.  Period.

[Andromeda]

Just watched last night. Woot! I never despised Katrina, even found her interesting in the beginning, but I thought the focus on her, and bringing her into the group as a third wheel was just wrong. It threatened the Abbie/Ichabod dynamic. So now I wonder if the producers planned this all along, or tried her out as a team member and realized it wasn't working, or just turned her evil and killed her off to make us fans happy. I guess it doesn't matter -- the result is great!

 

She was spending a lot of time with the bad guys voluntarily, which I found suspicious, but never quite came into play that strongly as leading to her flipping so much as her son.

 

I adored Ben Franklin! He was so on board with the time travel immediately -- hysterical. And all of his ideas and inventions coming to fruition, that was fun. I hope we can go back in time again, and see him again. I was worried how Abbie would be treated, so I'm glad the show didn't put her in really uncomfortable situations. This is my escapist entertainment, not 12 Years a Slave.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Andromeda

[savinggrace]

Katrina never got around to separating Abraham from Headless. I hope we don't have to deal with his angst over Deadtrina if we get a third season.

[Jordan27]

Wow, my favorite show of the series.  I love time travel stories and they handled this one pretty good.

 

The really good....

 

Abbie convincing Crane who she was.  Those conversations were great. 

 

The looks she got. 

 

Benjamin Franklin.

 

Her beatdown of the soldier.  Best beatdown of the series. 

 

Crane looking at the cellphone pictures.

 

Abbie meeting Grace.

 

Evil Katrina.

 

Abbie's goodbye to Crane in the past.

 

Crane's reaction to Katrina's death. 

 

The nitpicks.....

 

She could've convinced Crane who she was sooner with the cellphone and her licenses.  Plus, hey, she has clothes and shoes from 200 years in the future.

 

We missed her convincing Franklin who she was.  She said hi and then next scene he was talking about the future.

 

What a great way to end the season.  Be interesting to see if they can pick up and get back to the more compelling first season. 

 

I really like Abbie back in time.  Would love to revisit that again. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jordan27

[topanga]

 

Katrina never got around to separating Abraham from Headless. I hope we don't have to deal with his angst over Deadtrina if we get a third season.

I thought everything went back to the way it was before Katrina and Abbie got sucked into the time vortex. Which means everything from Seasons 1 and 2 did happen.

 

 

But it does go back to the Ichabod of s1 that did put Abbie first until he was sucked into Katrina's vortex of stupidity.

Just curious, did Ichabod and Katrina ever have sex this season? Not that the show ever talks about sex, but I'm trying to recall a scene where the two of them acted post-coital.  

[archiesmom]

 

Just curious, did Ichabod and Katrina ever have sex this season? Not that the show ever talks about sex, but I'm trying to recall a scene where the two of them acted post-coital.  

Only in Katrina's dream. I can't remember if it was right before or after she was impregnated by the poisonous Moloch spider.

[jhlipton]

I thought everything went back to the way it was before Katrina and Abbie got sucked into the time vortex. Which means everything from Seasons 1 and 2 did happen.

I am still convinced that certain things did NOT happen: the map that makes Indi and kimberella so (rightfully) furious, and Hawley attracted to Abbie in any way. I think that the writers as well as the characters were sucked into "Katrina's vortex of stupidity" (sucked being the operative word).

Edited February 25, 2015 by jhlipton

[Clanstarling]

I had no issue with Crane's discomfort during the hug either, and not because he was from a different time period. IIRC, he'd only known Abbie for a few hours at that point. Flip the scene to the pilot episode - if Crane hugged Abbie within a few hours of their initial meeting - would she have been all warm and cuddly? I think not. (spoken in Mison's voice).

 

And this 20th/21st century person does not like people in my space unless I expressly invite them in. So to speak. I'm not cold - just picky.

[CocoaGoddess]

I may or may not have watched this episode three times.

 

In the last episode thread, I feared that we would get an actual and real "reset", rewriting the history of the characters and Abbie being a Marty McFly time travel victim. I didn't want that to be the case because I liked Ichabod and didn't want to see that iteration of him go away (see Fringe, season 4).

 

However, now I'm thinking that might not have been such a bad idea. I was never an Ichabbie shipper per se, but DAMN, 18th century Ichabod was a revelation! Self assured, capable, witty, snarky ... my god. So hot. And so much chemistry with Abbie simmering below the surface. For this reason, I didn't think "The Hug" was noteworthy at all, but that's because there were so many great, intense moments leading up to that. The Hug just could not ever compare to Ichabod getting in her face in the carriage. Never, not in 200 years. That stare, that moment, it made me a Ichabbie stan. (Though I stand firm that their coupling needs to happen in the last season, hopefully about 4 or 5 years from now.) Tom Mison is brilliant, because there was definitely a clear and distinct difference in portrayal with past Ichabod and current/out of time Ichabod and ... I think I like the former better. 

 

The look of bored determination on Abbie's face as she choked the soldier guy into unconsciousness made me feel tingly inside. Also so hot.  Thanks Nicole, these feelings are completely new to me. 

 

Ah, this episode gets more satisfying and epic each additional time I watch it. When Katrina succumbed to her well deserved puncturing, I whispered/tweeted, "Well now she can nap for eternity." And I mean it, nap on, nap long, nap strong, Struggle Witch. I don't even care that she looks like she was being reunited in some sort of heavenly bliss with Jenry, who certainly should be roasting over an open flame for all of the trouble he caused--but you know, I'll take it. Whatever. The only good Katrina is a filleted Katrina, so let her have crumpets and tea for eternity with her spawn. 

[jhlipton]

What I loved is she gave Sutton (???) fair warning.  She didn't say it mean or bragging; just the facts, man.  Then she used very specific "modern close-quarter combat techniques" against him.  (Although I don't think the slam against the bars is part of the approved training!)

[Miss Dee]

CocoaGoddess, if we get a third season, I'm hoping that because Abbie remembers the Ichabod she met in his own time, she's better equipped to respond to him in such a way as to elicit the sorts of responses he would have had then. Which, in a way, is the "real" Ichabod. So we might get the best of both worlds - Ichabod keeping the growth and whimsy he's developed in the modern world with more of the confidence and assurance that he had in the past because Abbie now knows him that way and sees him that way.

[Terrafamilia]

While I understand the reasoning, the plot whiplash and character contortions with Katrina and Henry offended my artistic sensibilities. Especially with Henry. He was all ready to be a wolf again and then he was (almost) a milquetoast mama's boy.

[DearEvette]

On re-watch just realized that even in 1781, Abbie shot a gun at Headless.  Does this mean she's used a fire-arm at a bad guy in every episode? 

 

And Katrina is still the worst spy.  The minute she asked "and where is this madwoman' Ichabod, whose suspicions had been somewhat allayed by the supposedly pregnant neighbor story,  got immediately even more suspicious.

Edited February 26, 2015 by DearEvette

[tennisgurl]

I really wish that they had a more gradual slide into Katrina`s evil turn, and Henry was just a huge waste of a character in general. They had John freaking Noble, who, to be fair to him, did the very best with what he could, and they totally squandered him.

 

From a writing perspective, their ends were pretty sloppy and reeked of writers who were desperate to win their audience and their critics back. But from a fan perspective, it seemed to be for the greater good. I do wish they had been more graceful with the end of Katrina, but I am just glad they finally trimmed the fat on this whole debacle of a story-line.

[Watermelon]

I am still convinced that certain things did NOT happen: the map that makes Indi and kimberella so (rightfully) furious, and Hawley attracted to Abbie in any way. I think that the writers as well as the characters were sucked into "Katrina's vortex of stupidity" (sucked being the operative word).

Hey, can you answer this for me?

 

I swear I watched every episode but I don't really remember Ichabod creating a map from memory. Every time I try to recall this, I only come up with Shawn from Psych doing the same thing with a civil war reenactment. 

 

What was the map about and why was it so terrible Ichabod copied it?

Edited February 26, 2015 by Watermelon

[DearEvette]

 

What was the map about and why was it so terrible Ichabod copied it?

 

It was in the S1 two part season finale.  They found a map to purgatory.  Ichabod was bound and determined to rescue Katrina using it.  But Abbie was convinced that it was too dangerous because Moloch's minions could use it to free him.  Finally Ichabod agreed and they burned the map.  He did a pinky swear.  But after Abbie left, safe in assuming they had averted a crisis... Ichabod redrew the map from memory because....Katrina' vortex of stupidity.  To be fair, he shed a manly tear of betrayal while doing it.

[HalcyonDays]

I may or may not have watched this episode three times.

 

<snip>

 

Tom Mison is brilliant, because there was definitely a clear and distinct difference in portrayal with past Ichabod and current/out of time Ichabod and ... I think I like the former better. 

 

The look of bored determination on Abbie's face as she choked the soldier guy into unconsciousness made me feel tingly inside. Also so hot.  Thanks Nicole, these feelings are completely new to me. 

 

Ah, this episode gets more satisfying and epic each additional time I watch it. When Katrina succumbed to her well deserved puncturing, I whispered/tweeted, "Well now she can nap for eternity." And I mean it, nap on, nap long, nap strong, Struggle Witch. I don't even care that she looks like she was being reunited in some sort of heavenly bliss with Jenry, who certainly should be roasting over an open flame for all of the trouble he caused--but you know, I'll take it. Whatever. The only good Katrina is a filleted Katrina, so let her have crumpets and tea for eternity with her spawn. 

 

I'm on rewatch three too. Considering half of the season, I deleted from my DVR in absolute disgust, this is very good (Hear that FOX). I too though Mison and Beharie did amazing this episode. The show could just be those two, with tertiary characters and be amazing (But I do love Lyndie and Orlando!)

 

Your comment about the nap made me laugh, because I mentioned that a couple episodes ago - Abbie and Ichabod are fighting off Reavers, and Katrina is....napping. Again. So yeah, I agree. She can spend eternity with his murderous son drinking Quince Tea before settling in for a nice nap. Remember it always has to be Quince Tea!.

 

 Ichabod redrew the map from memory because....Katrina' vortex of stupidity.  To be fair, he shed a manly tear of betrayal while doing it.

 

I had to go back to remember who first wrote this. catrox14, this is genius! Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity (tm:catrox14)

 

And Katrina is still the worst spy.  The minute she asked "and where is this madwoman' Ichabod, whose suspicions had been somewhat allayed by the supposedly pregnant neighbor story,  got immediately even more suspicious.

 

See, this episode was still true to her character. Shady as hell. Selfish (not treating the wounded soldiers). Self-serving (Getting Headless to do her dirty work). Bad spy (Crane caught on very quickly), unable to complete a task (not killing Ichabod).

[jhlipton]

I had to go back to remember who first wrote this. catrox14, this is genius! Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity (tm:catrox14)

 

Not me, but catrox14:

But it does go back to the Ichabod of s1 that did put Abbie first until he was sucked into Katrina's vortex of stupidity.

 

Credit where due.

[Indi]

I had no issue with Crane's discomfort during the hug either, and not because he was from a different time period. IIRC, he'd only known Abbie for a few hours at that point. Flip the scene to the pilot episode - if Crane hugged Abbie within a few hours of their initial meeting - would she have been all warm and cuddly? I think not. (spoken in Mison's voice).

 

Exactly! Which is why it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

And to prove my point that killing Katrina wasn't a choice, Mison explained it was an accident and that he never intended to kill her. Ichy remained his true wishy washy self till the very end.

 

Now what I fear the most is that Katrina will remain in spirit in S3 in the form of his manpain about the accident and that he might take it on Abbie again.

 

The look of bored determination on Abbie's face as she choked the soldier guy into unconsciousness made me feel tingly inside. Also so hot. Thanks Nicole, these feelings are completely new to me.

What I loved is she gave Sutton (???) fair warning. She didn't say it mean or bragging; just the facts, man. Then she used very specific "modern close-quarter combat techniques" against him. (Although I don't think the slam against the bars is part of the approved training!)

She was amazing!

 

While I understand the reasoning, the plot whiplash and character contortions with Katrina and Henry offended my artistic sensibilities. Especially with Henry. He was all ready to be a wolf again and then he was (almost) a milquetoast mama's boy.

The writers did John Noble dirty. Henry, if used with moderation and without those horrible family ties, could have been a compelling villain.

[RiddleyWalker]

 

 

The writers did John Noble dirty. Henry, if used with moderation and without those horrible family ties, could have been a compelling villain.

 

I really did like John Noble as the "Sin Eater".  He was very mysteriously creepy and ambiguous. His character went downhill after the reveal that he was Jeremy. If they'd continued to use him sporadically as they had as a mysterious "ally",  or made him a villain with no family connection to the Cranes it could have worked.

[HalcyonDays]

 

Not me, but catrox14:

 

Credit where due.

 

Sorry, both jhlipton and catrox14. Posts edited because I want to give credit where credit is due for such an awesome saying!!

 

Now what I fear the most is that Katrina will remain in spirit in S3 in the form of his manpain about the accident and that he might take it on Abbie again.

The writers did John Noble dirty. Henry, if used with moderation and without those horrible family ties, could have been a compelling villain.

 

Yes they did. What makes me laugh is at the end of last years season finale, all of the media and commenters were RAVING over this twist. It was Brilliant! It was Unexpected! Best twist in 10 Years!!

 

And they squandered it. By attaching Katrina to the mix as a goodie, and trying to redeem a baddie, they hugely screwed up. The direction of Henry's story could have been so much better - basically have Crane resolute in his wanting to take out Henry. Remember what Ichabod (and WE ALL) said. "He never KNEW Henry." So there is no connection there. At All. Then have Katrina waver, have her slowly seduced to the dark side, which Ichabbie have to fight off so much.

 

Take out all of behaviour changes due to Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity and that's it. If the writers next year have any sense, there will be a time jump as some have suggested, and Crane will have his closure, no longer be mourning.

 

And to prove my point that killing Katrina wasn't a choice, Mison explained it was an accident and that he never intended to kill her. Ichy remained his true wishy washy self till the very end.

 

You know what? Mison's may be claiming it was an accident, but I think it's only for two reasons. One, so his character doesn't come off as a cold-blooded killer of his wife. Two, in attempts to not alienate a portion of fandom (way too late though for that one though).

 

I watched it again last night. Ichabod pushes his body forward and at the same time, pulls Katrina's towards him, into the knife. If he's trying a  self-defense move, or one to avoid a knife would be to push that person's body AWAY from yours, to get the knife away from both people. He moved forward, put his arm around her back and pulled into a hug like motion then lunged forward her with the knife. Make no mistake, this was definately no accident. And I am not complaining at all. He finally did what he needed to do. Good work, Crane!

[catrox14]

Not me, but catrox14:

Credit where due.

lol, thanks for the credit. I only regret that I didn't think of it sooner and we could have changed the Katrina thread title

To Katrina Crane:Mistress of the Vortex of Stupidity

[sinkwriter]

 

I really did like John Noble as the "Sin Eater".  He was very mysteriously creepy and ambiguous. His character went downhill after the reveal that he was Jeremy. If they'd continued to use him sporadically as they had as a mysterious "ally",  or made him a villain with no family connection to the Cranes it could have worked.

 

I agree. Maybe if they'd just made him evil because he'd become corrupted by all the sins he'd "eaten," that the sad, odd price of helping others had destroyed his own soul... that could have been compelling. He could have been mysterious and creepy in that way, helping them but underneath it all slowly plotting more sinister deeds. Or something!

 

Instead they had to cook up this over-the-top drama about him being their back-from-the-dead, bitter as all hell son who was angry at his father who hadn't even known he existed. His whining about that was so annoying. I was beyond grateful when Crane finally said, "I didn't even know about you!"

Edited February 26, 2015 by sinkwriter

[proserpina65]

 

 

I really wish that they had a more gradual slide into Katrina`s evil turn, and Henry was just a huge waste of a character in general.

 

 

This is exactly why I don't buy Goffman's "oh, we planned this all along", because if they really had this resolution to Katrina's story in mind from the beginning, the slide into evil would've been done more gradually, been more believable, and thus, made the character interesting from much earlier on.

 

[proserpina65]

And to prove my point that killing Katrina wasn't a choice, Mison explained it was an accident and that he never intended to kill her. Ichy remained his true wishy washy self till the very end.

 

The actual action of the episode does not bear out this interpretation.  Ichabod's actions are clearly deliberate, and are in aid of Abbie, not in self-defense.  Mison can put whatever wash on he wants, but even the dialogue makes it clear that Ichabod's killing Katrina is a choice he made.

[Sparkling Beth]

The actual action of the episode does not bear out this interpretation.  Ichabod's actions are clearly deliberate, and are in aid of Abbie, not in self-defense.  Mison can put whatever wash on he wants, but even the dialogue makes it clear that Ichabod's killing Katrina is a choice he made.

I don't remember which interview it was, but I thought what Mison said was that it was presented ambiguously, as if it could have been accidental or it could have been deliberate.  We've seen that scene many times on TV and in the movies (although usually with a gun) where two people are struggling to grab a single weapon and one of them ends up being killed.  For a moment the audience isn't sure who took the bullet or the knife because the combatants are standing too close together, and then one of them--almost always the "bad guy"--crumples to the floor while the other one stands there looking horrified at the turn of events.

 

I do think they didn't want Crane to come off as a cold-blooded killer, but I, too, found the dialogue significant afterward.  Abbie said, "You had no choice" and Ichabod said, "Yes, I did.  We all did."  That, to me, is a really interesting line.  He's saying that Katrina made the choice to be evil, but he's also saying to Abbie that he made the choice to save her over Katrina.  So there's definitely an implication that the killing of Katrina was deliberate even though a witness (not a Witness) might view it as an accident that happened in a struggle.

[savinggrace]

I felt like Goffman still wasn't committed to the idea of Evil Katrina. After her stabbing he allowed time for sadness, regret and the corny vision of her beloved Henry, Demons should have come up from hell and dragged her under or something-- the same with Henry since they were both using blood magic for evil. There should  have been no doubt between the Witnesses that they did the right thing in putting two horrible people out of commission.

[johntfs]

I felt like Goffman still wasn't committed to the idea of Evil Katrina. After her stabbing he allowed time for sadness, regret and the corny vision of her beloved Henry, Demons should have come up from hell and dragged her under or something-- the same with Henry since they were both using blood magic for evil. There should  have been no doubt between the Witnesses that they did the right thing in putting two horrible people out of commission.

 

Goffman wasn't committed to the idea of Evil Katrina.  In truth, nobody seemed committed to any idea of Katrina, especially during the second season.  Even in the second to last episode of the season, Katrina came off as a bit of a clueless tool who was only sought out by Henry/Jeremy because she had the genetic power to swing the spell he wanted to cast.

[BrokenRemote]

CocoaGoddess, if we get a third season, I'm hoping that because Abbie remembers the Ichabod she met in his own time, she's better equipped to respond to him in such a way as to elicit the sorts of responses he would have had then. Which, in a way, is the "real" Ichabod. So we might get the best of both worlds - Ichabod keeping the growth and whimsy he's developed in the modern world with more of the confidence and assurance that he had in the past because Abbie now knows him that way and sees him that way.

This is something that's really been puzzling me. Will Abbie remember going back in time? Logically she shouldn't, because she was sent by Grace back to the instant just before she went. Basically it never happened. And yet we often see in TV and movies where a time traveler remembers the trip because he or she was "outside" of the time change.

They didn't really commit one way or the other, unless I missed something, and I'm really curious how they'll go with it.

[Sparkling Beth]

This is something that's really been puzzling me. Will Abbie remember going back in time? Logically she shouldn't, because she was sent by Grace back to the instant just before she went. Basically it never happened. And yet we often see in TV and movies where a time traveler remembers the trip because he or she was "outside" of the time change.

They didn't really commit one way or the other, unless I missed something, and I'm really curious how they'll go with it.

Yeah, I'm eager to find out how they handle that too.  I remember seeing Back to the Future, and when Marty comes back to the present and finds it changed, he's puzzled and amazed.  But I'm thinking, If it was that way all along because of Marty changing the past, shouldn't he remember how his dad is now an author and his mother is still pretty and he has that cool truck?  Because he would have been there growing up in that changed future.

 

It boils down to the fact that writers can do anything they want, because time travel is impossible so no rules actually exist.  I'm hoping Abbie does remember the whole experience.  It would be more fun than just having them take up things where they left off with Abbie having no memory of 18th Century Ichabod or Grace.

[Watermelon]

Yeah, I'm eager to find out how they handle that too.  I remember seeing Back to the Future, and when Marty comes back to the present and finds it changed, he's puzzled and amazed.  But I'm thinking, If it was that way all along because of Marty changing the past, shouldn't he remember how his dad is now an author and his mother is still pretty and he has that cool truck?  Because he would have been there growing up in that changed future.

 

It boils down to the fact that writers can do anything they want, because time travel is impossible so no rules actually exist.  I'm hoping Abbie does remember the whole experience.  It would be more fun than just having them take up things where they left off with Abbie having no memory of 18th Century Ichabod or Grace.

I'm thinking she will. How else would she have known to call Ichabod Captain. She never calls him that.

 

Also, it would negate Grace telling Abbie that she was to fill in the rest of her magic journal.  

[HalcyonDays]

This is something that's really been puzzling me. Will Abbie remember going back in time?

 

Yup she did. Because she says to Jenny re: Grace Dixon. "I met Grace. I wish you could've been there." Both Katrina and Abbie remembered their experiences in the past, but no other did because it hadn't occurred. By bringing Abbie and Katrina to the moment the spell was cast/slash/reversed, Abbie and Katrina technically never went into the past, therefore nothing was changed. They remembered it because their brains still had memories of the experience. It's like, you take five steps forward, five steps back. Your position didn't change, but you remember making those steps.

[planetofapes]

I couldn't get past the first episode of season 2 but I may give it another another shot if Katrina, the worst character on the show, finally becomes deader than the dodo. THANK YOU. Perhaps she can finally get some use out of her costumes and even up as Maid of Honor at Marilyn Manson's wedding. Okay, I love the gothic bride look but I don't think it was historically accurate, not even a little.

[Sparkling Beth]

Yup she did. Because she says to Jenny re: Grace Dixon. "I met Grace. I wish you couldn've been there." Both Katrina and Abbie remembered their experiences in the past, but no other did because it hadn't occurred. By bringing Abbie and Katrina to the moment the spell was cast/slash/reversed, Abbie and Katrina technically never went into the past, therefore nothing was changed. They remembered it because their brains still had memories of the experience. It's like, you take five steps forward, five steps back. Your position didn't change, but you remember making those steps.

You're absolutely right!  I can't believe I didn't remember that.  I guess we can assume that Crane won't remember anything about meeting Abbie in the past, though, right?  Because it never happened for him?

[jhlipton]

Crane won't remember the altered past because it never happened to him.  But Abbie clearly does (I think Katrina may have remembered but who the f**k cares?).

[possibilities]

Whatever the rules, they can write them to include a "witness exception" so that Abbie and possibly Ichabod, can remember.