Crackedmuse

We can agree to disagree of the popularity or lack thereof of a crane centered show. ---------- Sorry, I'm unable to use the quote feature on the phone. I didn't address that part of your comment so there's nothing to agree to disagree about re: Crane's popularity to carry a show. But I will say, I don't think that's something that can be judged until a show is on the air. Every actor that has ever had a hit has also had a string of flops. The lead actor is just one of dozens of factors that determine whether a show catches on. As you mentioned, given the reaction to the finale attempting to launch a show in the Fall would undoubtedly be ill-advised. But next Spring could be a different story. Who knows? I wouldn't even hazard a guess because timing and environment are major factors with the launch of any show over and above who's starring in it. #Hannibal" was in the top ten of every critic's list, even coming in #1 as the best show of the year in 2014, but couldn't even get Sleepy Hollow's 0.7. It routinely had less than one million viewers. Who knows why they could never grow their audience, but it definitely had nothing to do with the quality of the show. At the end of the day, it's all a crap shoot.

I'm sure that's true for many, but I'm someone who didn't know any of that. I saw Angel for the first time on DVD a couple of years after both Angel and Buffy had been cancelled and off the air. I watched his entire run and maybe a year later started Buffy's DVDs. So while the shows were interconnected, the enjoyment of one was not dependent upon the other. I use "spin-off" only as an easy descriptor of a character that starts one place and ends up in another. Angel shared much with the Buffyverse, but in other ways was nothing like it. And I suspect the same would be true of any solo Crane vehicle. Arrow, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow are all connected, but each show has it's on POV, direction and fans, some of whom watch all three, two, or only one. And undoubtedly new and future fans who have not seen any of them (like Supergirl fans coming from the crossover) who are just now tuning into The Flash. They have no knowledge Barry Allen started on Arrow and probably don't care. Of course, the connections between characters in the DC universe is not in any way comparable to Abbie/Crane and Sleepy Hollow. But as Sparkling Beth stated, the comparison with Angel is about making assumptions before something has happened. We have no idea how a show with Crane on his own would be structured. What mythology carries over, gets discarded, and what will be new. It could be very similar to the Sleepy Hollow we know, or a huge departure. We don't even know if there will BE a show. But if there is, the assumption that every viewer will come to it knowing the history I think is false. There are millions of people who have never heard of Sleepy Hollow, or heard about it and never watched it. Better Call Saul has many viewers who have never seen Breaking Bad. (Astounding, but true!) So while fans of Sleepy Hollow make up the largest pool for potential viewers of any Crane spin-off right now, that could change depending on what kind of show it eventually turns out to be.

Phoenics: When I said it's being called Sleepy Hollow S4 now, I meant that if they were to take it in an "Angel" type direction the name would mostly likely change. There would clearly be connections to Sleepy Hollow, i.e., the Horseman is out there somewhere and Crane's new job is supernatural based as well as him being a Witness, just like "Angel" obviously still had vampires, monsters, and still shared Buffy's goal of saving the world. But the show would need to stand on its own. The first time I saw "Angel" I had never seen a single episode of Buffy. But I knew what Buffy was about and that he was a character from that show, but felt I got enough exposition/callbacks, etc. from Angel that it allowed me to enjoy his show for what it was without ever having seen Buffy until she showed up in one of his episodes. So if Crane essentially ends up in D.C. on his own, then new mythology would have to be built around whatever this job is, while still retaining the Witness foundation and goal of stopping the Apocalypse. The End of Days would be the long term mission but the day-to-day would be George Washington's "X-Files." And this is the Unpopular Opinion thread. E.T.A. I have no opinion or judgement on the merit or success of doing something like this. Just a suggestion of how it could be done.

Sparkling Beth: If it happens, I plan to watch as well. Because I think while it's being called Sleepy Hollow S4 now, it would most likely be an "Angel" type spin-off with perhaps Sophie showing up at some point to assist. She would be his Cordelia. So there would be a connection to Abbie, but not the in your face, so to speak, type of connection Jenny would bring. So there would be reminders of Abbie/Sleepy Hollow like there were of Buffy for Angel, but the show would be open to chart its own course. So if it were to go that way, I think it would be interesting to watch. I was skeptical about "Angel" but that ended up working out great.

I understand your viewpoint, but I see that as more of a surface reaction to Ichabod considering and/or in agreement with Katrina's opinions, as not translating to him ignoring or being dismissive of Abbie's. I do not recall Ichabod discounting or even minimizing Abbie's opinion in any way. He disagreed with her that lethal action needed to be taken immediately because he was feeling the pressure of the physical and psychological connections with his wife and child. He had hope another way could be found and tried to balance that hope with duty. He did not diminish Abbie's arguments or ever told her she was wrong - about anything. As you say, he agreed she was right. It was their job to stop the Horsemen. But Ichabod is a human being, and a man out of time, for whom Katrina, Henry, and Abraham represented a life he led 250 years ago which he was still emotionally tied to. He wanted to try to reach Henry in whatever way he could, so if they had to kill him, Ichabod could feel in his heart there truly was no other choice. I never saw Ichabod excusing anyone's actions or trying to make them appear irrelevant or inconsequential. He was well aware of the threat and cost because he was right beside Abbie dealing with all of it - along with the guilt that so much of the damage was a direct result of Henry's hatred for him. He did not abandon Abbie or forsake his duty, or in any way imply he did not believe everything she said was true. He never left her side unless she specifically asked him to, and fought just as hard battling whatever evils they faced. Abbie kept saying Henry must die, but until they found the sword they had no way to kill him. So even if they were in complete agreement, it's debatable what, if any, effect it would have had on how events played out because they had no way to stop him. Yes, Crane voted with Katrina about approaching Henry for a cure to get rid of baby Moloch because he believed that was the only option they had to try to save her. Abbie felt it was a waste of time, but she had no other options either. And when Katrina volunteered to die, Abbie vetoed it. Disagreement is not being dismissive. Abbie and Ichabod were both acting on conviction of belief. He was not taking a stand against Abbie or being cavalier about her opinion. He simply believed confronting Henry might make a difference - and they had nothing else to try. It was a last ditch effort, because without it Katrina would surely die. Had Ichabod never gone to Henry it wouldn't have changed anything because they were still in the same place when he returned. Ichabod and Abbie are individuals. They will have their own thoughts, motivations, frustrations, and beliefs. They will disagree on what poses the greatest threat and methods to disable that threat. But human weakness is not lack of commitment or dereliction of duty. Every situation will bring pressures and conflicts that may put the Witnesses at odds. S2 put the clamps on Crane, but S3 may swing the pendulum Abbie's way. They were at odds but stood together in every way that mattered. Whatever Abbie faced, Crane faced. He did not shy away from danger or hesitate to put himself in harm's way. Joe Corbin almost ate him alive. Crane questioned if trying to save him was worth it. Even though Joe was a victim, lots of people still died at his hands. Of course I am not equivocating Joe's deeds with Henry's - not in the slightest. But even if Joe had chosen evil, I believe Crane would have supported whatever Abbie wanted to do - no matter his feelings - because he knew what Joe meant to her and would never diminish that even if he felt she was wrong. But life is lived in the moment - not the abstract - and all you can do is the best you can in the moment. They have both acknowledged the strain these events placed on their bond and are actively working to communicate their needs better and strengthen the partnership as they go along. But things will never be 50/50 and conflicts will arise. They've got years of trials and tribulations ahead, and as Crane stated, nobody told them what form(s) it would take. Nothing is certain or predictable. This time next year Jenny might be rampaging the Hollow slaying people left and right. All Ichabbie can do is have faith in their bond and go forward with the best of intentions. And that is what I feel they have always done - even when in conflict. I think the show actually did a bit of a disservice by having everyone connected with Abbie be a victim of evil, and everyone connected with Crane making a deliberate choice. It never forced her into having anything on the line in the same way. It looked like they were about to go there with Frank, but Frank said outright he couldn't help himself, so the dynamics of victim vs. choice are unequal. Hopefully there will be more of a balance in the future.

Extremely. Ichabod and Abbie already share the qualities they would be looking for in a romantic partner - plus a thousand more they could never hope to get from anyone else. Most married people don't have what they have. Even setting aside the Witness bond and mission, you still have two people who have spent 99% of their time together since Ichabod came out of the ground, and literally the only thing they don't do is have sex. They are compatible on pretty much every level. They enjoy working together, playing together, and learning from each other. They share interests in literature, movies, etc. - even law enforcement - and philosophizing about life and the meaning of life. They trust each other, believe in each other, and never censor themselves because the relationship is non-judgmental. They accept each other exactly as they are. They don't try to change each other and instinctively seek to help, encourage, and make each other happy. They will do anything, try anything, if they think it makes the other one smile. When they knock heads, it's not accusatory, belittling, or manipulative. Even when something is initially withheld, like the map or Orion's sigil, when asked they tell the truth. Any "acting out" comes from passion and sincerity, and they always try to understand and empathize when disagreements occur. And even if they never agree, it doesn't lessen the other person's value or worth. They get each other's sarcasm, sense of humor, take delight in the trivial and frivolous, and express joy as freely as sorrow - all unfiltered. Ichabod is too impulsive and emotional, but Abbie is too wary and guarded. It's what makes them such a great match because they each bring exactly what the other one needs. Even with all the time spent together, they still miss each other when apart. I think next season there will definitely be love interests for both. But these will be little flirty things to bring out their territorial sides. ("What are your intentions toward Lt. Mills?" - "Schezwan chicken, your favorite) Beyond that, there's really no point. The only thing a love interest brings is being able to show an onscreen kiss - just one that's not between the leads!

I thought the hug was epic. When Crane bids "Miss Mills" farewell, Abbie is suddenly aware these may be the last words he ever says to her. There was no guarantee the reversal spell would work, and if Crane was about to walk out the door to his death, she did not want their goodbyes to be as strangers. What we now realize is that Leftenant is not simply an acknowledgement of Abbie's rank, but also a nickname - which for Abbie, and no doubt Crane as well - signifies the closeness and comfort of their relationship and bond. He is the only person who addresses her this way. It is a preference and a delight. So should they never see each other again, Abbie needed to say goodbye to Crane. Her Crane. The Captain reacted appropriately. He didn't understand what Abbie was doing, but no matter. Crane would understand - even if it took 250 years for him to do so. And that is the person she hugged.

Not just one less Horseman, but a powerful ally. Who is to say that time spent trying to kill Henry - which cannot be remotely easy, and could take months if not years - is better than time spent attempting to redeem him? These are not mutually exclusive tasks. The team will continue to gather info/weapons to take out Moloch simultaneously with the Cranes trying to connect with Henry. And yes, no question about the collateral damage, but any evil entity they go against would be similar, if not the same. But even if everyone was in agreement that Henry should be killed, how do they plan on doing it? This is a man who can bury you alive and practically scorch the earth with the blink of an eye. I don't think Abbie whipping out her pistol is going to take him down. And if they did manage to kill him, then what? A couple of weeks of breathing room until Moloch finds a replacement? Because a replacement will be found. However, if Henry is redeemed the Witnesses will have 13 years of Moloch insider knowledge, a Sin Eater, a mind reader, and the witch power of half a dozen covens combined fighting on their side, and someone who is as invested - if not more invested - in vanquishing Moloch because he is the true cause of what Jeremy has become. The demon that transformed a child's anger and bitterness into pure evil. And given the importance of faith that Ichabod and Abbie have relied on since the day they met, Henry's redemption might strengthen that faith even more that they will be successful in stopping the Apocalypse. Yes, the Crane family would be reunited, but that is the least of what would be gained. So isn't that worth fighting for? It may fail, but killing Henry is no sure thing either - and might take longer and cost even more lives. I don't think it's that easy to say what's right vs. what's wrong. If Jenny or Frank were to become Horseman and start taking out people left and right, I doubt we would deny them a shot at redemption. The difference is that we've seen them prior. We've only had surface glimpses of Henry's inner pain and turmoil, but they are expressions of his humanity, however small. And the Witnesses are fighting to save humanity. And saving Henry's humanity might ultimately save mankind as much as any other weapon the Witnesses might find. Just something to consider. Of course. It's how they got John Noble to commit. "You get to be a wise old man, a rebellious child, a sin eater, a warlock, a Horseman, boss other Horsemen around, and ultimately a loving son to parents half your age. Greatest acting challenge of your life! Sign here." #DestiniesEntwinedDAMMIT

THIS! All this and more. Cartoon villains rule!

Very well thought out and eloquently expressed. Thank you.

What we have to remember is that the purpose of War is to sow the seeds of doubt and create conflict in order to separate the Witnesses. Because as long as Abbie and Crane are physically together, they keep each other grounded and in check when one or both lose focus. Now that we know War had already risen when Abbie and Crane thought they were working to prevent that, we can trace the plan in action. The real opening salvo came when Moloch pulled Crane through the mirror and told him he would deliver Abbie's soul. Once that seed was planted the doubt began to sprout, and continued to be sown with Andy showing up to confirm Moloch's message and drop hints about the map. Then Henry takes over with, "prophesies have a way of coming true," and dangling Katrina's rescue as the only way to stop War, playing directly into both Witnesses' vulnerabilities. But when Ichabod burned the map before Henry could get his hands on it, that proved even more why Abbie and Crane had to be separated. Together, they have the strength to resist. So one being in Purgatory and the other six feet under should have done the trick. But even apart they found a way around the obstacles and now the key has gone the way of the map. So now instead of others separating them, the Witnesses need to be persuaded to separate themselves. The seeds of distrust, "weakness," insecurity, and temptation have been planted and are being watered and fertilized - not just with the Witnesses - but everyone who would assist them. As long as people are occupied with their own issues and second guessing themselves, it's that much harder to stay focused on what matters. All of them are being played. Just like Abbie wondering if raising the Kindred was in fact, a ruse to deliver Headless his head, they will all make decisions based on information that will be dubious at best. Similar to Ichabod's dream of Katrina in the ring of fire, who knows what visions Mama Mills may conjure when she appears. Everyone is going to get their buttons pushed. Disaster will strike. But as long as Ichabod and Abbie can "remember their bond," they will be up to whatever challenge is thrown at them. Now I have to admit, I fell asleep during this episode. I know it's easy to point the finger at Katrina, but honestly, I thought everybody was pretty boring. (There were some cute scenes, but overall - boring) This episode could have been 20 minutes long and achieved the same effect. Even last week's premiere was around 30 minutes of time suckage. But I suspect they'll be back in the groove soon.

Exactly. Abbie clearly had the phone when she used the compass app to locate the gateway to Purgatory. I think initially they wanted to show the "obsolete" tech saving the day in some way the smartphone could not. (Maybe battery life if nothing else). But when it came time to write the script they had the idea for the farewell video and you really need a large screen for that to play effectively on TV. These kinds of things will always happen. No big deal. But yes, Jenny's phone should have said "Abbie calling." Ichabod not knowing how to reverse was also a bit wonky, given that he had to put it in Drive just to move it and it was in Park when Jenny took the wheel. So if he figured that out in a split second, I don't think he'd have trouble determining what "R" meant. But they needed the "must learn to drive" line (I assume) for a future driving lesson episode, so it was all good.

And your deliberate parsing of a sentence that was obviously meant to be an over-the-top poke at your endless over-the-top extrapolations - while ignoring everything else - is the very definition of Straw Man. Attaching fantasy interpretations to real societal issues don't make them valid - particularly when they are dependent on events playing into narrowly defined scenarios separate from the overall situation and in context to everything happening to every character. It only makes such comments sound pseudo-valid to the uninitiated. And silly diversionary mocking doesn't change that. But clearly, after a full year of identical postings differentiated only by this week's "fill-in-the-blanks" you are committed to using/grasping/twisting anything from Sleepy Hollow or any show in an attempt to prove your Straw Man "truth." And the only truly hilarious thing is how much your agenda seemingly blinds you to so much of what makes Sleepy Hollow entertaining - if you are indeed, actually interested in the show vs. Sleepy Hollow simply providing a convenient platform. My commitment is not anywhere near that level. This is an average sci-fi fantasy show with some very fun and entertaining things, but average nonetheless. So I've expended more energy than it warrants already and have nothing to add. Have fun with The Flash. Currently, Barry is lovesick over Iris and playing her "servant." But I'm sure the TPTB are just baiting the audience and have plans to flip it on its head by episode five. ETA: Sorry Stacy, I didn't see your post before I posted. Feel free to move the discussion wherever. I'm done here.

Fantique girl, get some sleep! I, too, am a Black woman who understands your frustration, but you are missing the point. These are not real concerns. This is fill-in-the-blank agenda spinning. Unfortunately, TWOP is gone, but if you could have seen the forum exactly one year ago these same "concerns" were posted by the same person prior to the Pilot airing and continued throughout the season - and will continue until Sleepy Hollow goes off the air no matter what happens - short of Abbie being anointed Queen of the Universe by God and everyone else sacrificing themselves in tribute. The show itself is of no concern. Any black actress that gets a job on any show will be scrutinized for something that can be spun into an example of servitude. (Except for certain shows by Tyler Perry which feature Black women in actual servitude) This type of argument is called a Straw Man. It's a diversionary tactic where one deliberately interprets events to fit a specific scenario in furtherance of the agenda. Even if everything one supposedly wishes would happen actually happened, it would be followed by a "But... I suspect this was just a bone tossed to pacify certain segments of the audience and it will be back to business as usual shortly. We'll see." So do you understand? Nothing will ever be satisfactory and nothing will ever be proven - because it's not meant to be. The purpose is to create false drama. And the truly unfortunate part of playing Straw Man, is that even normal concerns/character projections are invalidated by the blatant-ness of the agenda. So ultimately, these arguments serve no purpose. It's just a game looking for players to pick up a trope and run with it, in hopes the credibility of the duped will lend creedence to the nonsense.

True, but that is because you are only focused on the 99.99% of promo materials, trailers, panel discussions/interviews by cast/crew, magazine articles, photographs, posters, billboards, upcoming paperback and comic book releases, Tweets, Facebook, Instagram postings, etc., from the people actually involved in creating and marketing the show. But if you could just ignore all that and concentrate instead on cherry picking certain key words, random sentences, phrases, or snippets of comments that can be misinterpreted/twisted to fit a particular trope/agenda from the remaining .000000001%, then I think you'd understand what Kimberella is saying.