S05.E18: Divorce

[AndreaF]

I have no idea what kind of a father David Jessop is, but the fact that he hasn't issued a single statement to the media gives him points in my book.  That man is taking the high road.

Yes!  And... if it is indeed true that he left the AUB and polygamy, then his points are overflowing my book.  

[Neonyellowclover]

My hope is that there is a lawyer somewhere who doesn't like the Brown crew enough to take on Jessop's side of all of this custody BS. Robyn has said enough on camera and social media that it would be an easy adoption/custody transfer to shoot down and then some with a slick lawyer.

I also wonder if Jessop refuses to be any part of the show or have the cameras around when the kids are with him. For all we know he visits them once a week, but because he won't play ball with TLC/Robyn/Kody, Robyn thinks it is ok to make up whatever she wants about him.

[iii]

I Think the adoption scheme might be genuine to some extent (I think there's a lot at play here though).

Robyn has always been desperate to have her kids assimilate into the family and try to revision her past marriage / the father of those kids.

I think this is less about fear that something will happen to them at all and more about Robyn (as always) trying desperately to completely be part of the rest of them -"we shouda all been Browns from day 1". Any trace of the former marriage or the other parent has to vanish.

This has been ongoing, from when Robyn forced the kids to call kody "dad" to the renaming of poor Dayton to this adoption disaster.

Yeah and Kody talking about the "ick" factor of Robyn having been previously married with another's mans kids upon meeting her probably doesnt help.

Edited March 5, 2015 by iii

[Absolom]

I can see where the idea that Janelle was selfish came from, but really she wanted clarification of what if anything was going to change.  To me that's a reasonable request especially with the bunch she's joined.  In my opinion they are going at this thing backwards if what they are showing has any resemblance to reality.  The first step would be for Robyn to have a conversation with her ex about his intentions.  She said in the episode that he was no longer paying support and phone calls and visits had dropped off.  She needs to ask him if he plans to catch up the child support and fulfill his obligations.  She doesn't want to do that and be a responsible parent.  She wants to make her kids Browns.  If she couldn't bother talking to the ex, she should have called the Montana lawyer first to see what would make a difference in the petition there. Further, it should have been a family discussion upfront before any action was taken.  To get hit out of the blue (if indeed they were) is not the way to handle such an issue with four "marriages."  They have failed basic communication and responsibility on this one.  It should have been a five way decision with an agreed upon plan of action before they launched.  

[missy jo]

Even Logan, although going to school locally, is rarely seen.

 

 

Plus, IIRC, he said he's not even religious anymore! Although, FWIW, none of them seem very religious to me. It's all just "The Church of Kody and Making It Up As You Go Along."

[Snarklepuss]

In my opinion they are going at this thing backwards if what they are showing has any resemblance to reality.  The first step would be for Robyn to have a conversation with her ex about his intentions.  She said in the episode that he was no longer paying support and phone calls and visits had dropped off.  She needs to ask him if he plans to catch up the child support and fulfill his obligations.  She doesn't want to do that and be a responsible parent.  She wants to make her kids Browns.  If she couldn't bother talking to the ex, she should have called the Montana lawyer first to see what would make a difference in the petition there. Further, it should have been a family discussion upfront before any action was taken.  To get hit out of the blue (if indeed they were) is not the way to handle such an issue with four "marriages."  They have failed basic communication and responsibility on this one.  It should have been a five way decision with an agreed upon plan of action before they launched.  

 

As others have speculated, for all we know she has already done this.  Perhaps Robyn's attempted to make a deal with him that she'll look the other way on the child support and visitation if he'll give up his right to custody (presumably so Kodouche can legally adopt them).  Otherwise, this stupid divorce looks like it was done without even knowing if the real dad was willing to do this.  Although I can actually believe they would be stupid enough to do that....

[purpleflowers]

What I find hard to digest is their logic that Kobyn marrying automatically makes the polygamy irrelevant or nonexistent or however it was they phrased it. This seems ridiculous. They have a show, for pete's sake.  I think someone said this already, but is what they are concerned with actually that it would be difficult for Kody to be married to Meri but adopting another woman's (Robyn's) children? 

 

ETA: Didn't Meri say something about how R and K marrying would make Kody a legal step-parent or something along those lines? Would that help in a custody effort (assuming Jessop gives up rights) or make no difference? Just thinking out loud, but please chime in if you know!

Edited March 5, 2015 by purpleflowers

[Absolom]

Exactly.  They even said on the show that the next step was looking into the father giving up custody.  Robyn said she had to call the Montana lawyer.  She should have begun there.  For all they knew when that was filmed or at least from what they said, this could all do them no good whatsoever.  Robyn even admitted that.  If they want to do something this potentially full of difficulties they really should have been talking to a family law specialist from the beginning.  A decent one would have called someone in Montana and gotten the full legal scoop for them.  I can't wait to talk to the friend who actually is a family law specialist about this one.  

[Snarklepuss]

Absolom, I'm going to ask Mr. Snarklepuss (a divorce and family lawyer) what he thinks about this as well.

[3girlsforus]

As others have speculated, for all we know she has already done this.  Perhaps Robyn's attempted to make a deal with him that she'll look the other way on the child support and visitation if he'll give up his right to custody (presumably so Kodouche can legally adopt them).  Otherwise, this stupid divorce looks like it was done without even knowing if the real dad was willing to do this.  Although I can actually believe they would be stupid enough to do that....

 

I am pretty sure we know she has not already done this (or at least hadn't done this prior to the divorce/marriage/filming). She basically said as much. She said they have no idea if this will help  and mentioned needed to call the Montana lawyer to start looking into the father giving up custody.  If there was already a deal in place or they had at least begun arrangements to have him relinquish his rights she wouldn't need to start looking into it. She'd already know the plan for that.

[winsomeone]

Keep your friends close, your enemies closer.

 

1) she's stupid and doesn't understand the law and that she has to adhere to it. She'd rather be in some hairbrained scheme and then scream persecution when she doesn't get her way. Evidence = 'stolen cookie' purity story, divorce/adoption ass backwards, etc. Oh, and she has no intention on having another baby, unless she needs collateral against a newer, cuter wife.

 

2) You know it would be Janelle and Christine.

Janelle would take care of them..she stated on the show that she loves Robyn's children as much as she loves her own.

[okerry]

As others have speculated, for all we know she has already done this.  Perhaps Robyn's attempted to make a deal with him that she'll look the other way on the child support and visitation if he'll give up his right to custody (presumably so Kodouche can legally adopt them).  Otherwise, this stupid divorce looks like it was done without even knowing if the real dad was willing to do this.  Although I can actually believe they would be stupid enough to do that....

My theory is that the Browns know good and well that Robyn's ex will not ever sign away his parental rights. But if they divorce first, ask him to sign "for the good of those kids," and he (of course) refuses, then they can paint the ex as the mean mean dad who won't let his kids have the security of a loving family! How awful! Poor Robyn!

 

Meanwhile, Kody and Robyn are still legally married and secretly practicing monogamy behind everyone's backs. See how Brown logic works?

[kassa]

Did anyone else notice the horrible, cheesy music during this episode? It was supposed to emphasize the SACRIFICE of Meri, like Jesus on the cross.

 

 

Yes -- Ken Burns Civil War documentary sad violin music!

[RazzleberryPie]

I am pretty sure we know she has not already done this (or at least hadn't done this prior to the divorce/marriage/filming). She basically said as much. She said they have no idea if this will help  and mentioned needed to call the Montana lawyer to start looking into the father giving up custody.  If there was already a deal in place or they had at least begun arrangements to have him relinquish his rights she wouldn't need to start looking into it. She'd already know the plan for that.

By following no logic and doing everything ass backwards, Robyn gets to untearfully scrunch up her face, contort her eyebrows, and woefully but wistfully put on her best rachet Scarlett O'Hara imitation, and proclaim that this divorce/remarriage was just one more battle in the huge war of The World against The Browns. 

 

By following no logic and doing everything ass backwards, Meri gets to free herself legally of Kody, dodge in and out as she chooses, and then pursue whatever it is she wants to do, all while screwing over Janelle and Christine (Christine as collateral damage).

 

Just as Robyn has no intention of another baby, just like Meri had no intention of another one (through surrogacy, IVF, adoption, etc.). They both know potential babies is the key word to keeping Kody's attention. Meri has no intention of leaving the joory bizness to go to college, go back to work, whatever. She just knew refusing Robyn's imaginary surrogate baby and ditching the joory bizness to 'purse college' were the worst ways she could screw Robyn over by overwhelming Robyn, eroding Robyn's time with Kody, and then also making it harder for Robyn to ditch the business on the rest of them so she could have another baby. Meri is as much of a mastermind as Robyn, but she's just not using children and custody as pawns.

Edited March 5, 2015 by RazzleberryPie

[Oldernowiser]

Okay, I can't find the ratings post or I'd quote it, but the very special horror is that their desperate grab for ratings apparently worked. IIRC, the viewership went up about 800,000 from the previous craptastic episode, taking them from teetering to solid in one brutally cynical move.

I hate everything right now.

[Kohola3]

I propose that every single person on this forum boycott the season opener.  Let's see what TLC does if the numbers plummet.  Just a thought.....

[Absolom]

I don't keep the numbers in a spreadsheet.  Sorry I'm nowhere near that dedicated.  I can look through my posts though.

 

Divorce: Ratings:  2.792 M viewers and a .9 rating.

Tell All (or nothing) episode: 2.123 M viewers and a .7 rating.

 

Previous episode Verdict then Lawyer: Ratings:  1.531 M viewers and a .5 rating.

For how good that is, it was beaten by a repeat of Criminal Minds run on A&E.

 

Ratings are in: (Meri special)  1.458 M viewers and a .4 

 

 

Edited to fix a paste error.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Absolom

[Oldernowiser]

Thanks, Absolom.

So the gravy train rolleth on...

[Kellyee]

 

Janelle would take care of them..she stated on the show that she loves Robyn's children as much as she loves her own.

 

They state a lot of things on this show that are clearly not true, and I think this is one of them. Within the next 2 to 3 years, Janelle may only have 2 kids left at home. She has the most earning potential, and she has two adult kids who show clear signs of wanting nothing to do with the lifestyle they were raised in. Janelle may be the one to walk out the door. And I think it would be a cold day in hell before Robyn let Janelle be guadian of her kids. There is no warmth between them at all, except on the day Robyn gave birth to Solomon. And everyone gets emotional around a new baby, so that didn't mean much.

[SometimesBites]

Yes -- Ken Burns Civil War documentary sad violin music!

And by the looks of Twitter, the Brown Family Fan Girls took it hook, line, and sinker. Oh, so moving! Oh, so selfless! Oh, so heart-twangy!

 

Oh, so easy, eh TLC? Like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

/fishing metaphor

[Galloway Cave]

 

I am pretty sure we know she has not already done this (or at least hadn't done this prior to the divorce/marriage/filming). She basically said as much. She said they have no idea if this will help  and mentioned needed to call the Montana lawyer to start looking into the father giving up custody.

She also said she still wants the father to still be in the kids life, to still have visitation, that nothing will change there, so I have no idea if SHE has any idea what the hell they want. It also suggests he is still in their lives and she is lying about not seeing them. This is why I think this is a completely scripted event. They couldn't keep Robyn from blurting out nonsense and conflicting statements (see: twitter melt down). Meri tried to mitigate the bass-ackwardness at the beginning of the show by saying that in her mind this is the way to go about it, this is the way it makes sense to her.

 

I guess we will have to see if there are any road trips to Montana during the next few months. I would assume the giving up the rights petition would have to be dealt with up there since her divorce and custody agreement are filed up there. The adoption (if that ever does happen) could happen in Nevada, since that is their state of residency.

[Kohola3]

I guess we will have to see if there are any road trips to Montana during the next few months.

 

I doubt that, if there is, we won't hear about it.  For one thing I would think Jessop would have to be involved somehow and they certainly don't want us to know anything about any interaction with him.  Best he be portrayed as a dark villain hiding in the back woods.

[Galloway Cave]

They will have to make sure Kody turns off his location ping for his tweets! That is their tell.

[Palomar]

It's kind of hard to think that David after being bad mouthed and villified on national TV would do something FOR his ex-wife like give up parental rights?  Why should he?  The only incentive would be money but since he hasn't sued the Browns for the insinuations of violence against Robyn so far, maybe he doesn't care about that so much. No one really knows if he is a dead beat Dad or not....like everything, it is assumed on the show. 

 

I still think the whole scenario for the divorce and remarriage was mostly an excuse so that Kody could marry his favorite wife/soul mate.  A man does not sign away his parental rights (which has nothing to do with custody) easily...especially when he helped raise the kids and still is in contact with them.  To just assume he will do this is ridiculous and they are admiting he did not agree to do this (yet).

[goofygirl]

I was kinda hoping the Brown gravy train would run off the tracks and derail.  The thought of these chucklefucks having to actually WORK ( and not the joory biz) makes me want to tap dance and fart!

[Absolom]

 

She also said she still wants the father to still be in the kids life, to still have visitation, that nothing will change there, so I have no idea if SHE has any idea what the hell they want.

I think that's it.  Robyn has no idea what is going on and we have another Yoming situation where she is dead ignorant.  If she tells a judge they want to terminate the ex's parental rights but not change anything, she'll be laughed out of court.  You can't terminate the rights of a parent you want to keep in the child's life.  If we hadn't seen actual court records, I wouldn't believe the divorce happened with the backwards way they are portraying this.

[Rhondinella]

Having just watched the "Tell All" episode, I have this to say - I don't doubt that Meri actually did divorce Kodouche in an act of self-sacrifice like they were pushing on this show, but the primary motivation was for TV ratings and ultimately money, not so much love like they're pushing it.  Mr. Snarklepuss is convinced that most of the reason they're "so busy" these days is that they spend long hours in meetings with the show producers figuring out elaborate plots and schemes for keeping people tuning into the show, and the major solution this season was the divorce, which Meri willingly took on to help the family's ultimate goal of staying on TV.

 

 

THIS!!

 

Except they start out the episode with Meri saying she has no idea whether divorcing Kody and Kody marrying Robyn would actually bring about an adoption, because it doesn't appear that anyone has bothered to find out if Daddy Jessop would give up his rights.

 

 

That bugged the hell out of me.  Who in their right mind wouldn't first FIND OUT if the adoption scenario is even possible before making such a major decision?  It will be sad and hilarious when it is revealed that Meri's sacrifice was for naught because the authorities won't let them adopt even if they are married because THEY ARE ON TV BEING POLYGAMISTS!  Smdh.

 

As usual Janelle shows herself to be the only one in this family with any damn sense at all.  Run, Janelle!  Run far, far away!  You think we can convince Glarkware to produce "Free Janelle!" t-shirts?

[camom]

Did they say that Jessop is behind on child support or that he hasn't paid it?  With Robyn getting TLC money, it is possible that he isn't required to pay child support.  The courts take the incomes of both parents into consideration, and if she "earns" a lot more than he does, he may be off the hook.

[Granny58]

I propose that every single person on this forum boycott the season opener.  Let's see what TLC does if the numbers plummet.  Just a thought.....

No!  I can't!  It's a train wreck I love to watch.

[Absolom]

It likely wouldn't matter.  How many of us have Nielsen boxes?

[3girlsforus]

Did they say that Jessop is behind on child support or that he hasn't paid it?  With Robyn getting TLC money, it is possible that he isn't required to pay child support.  The courts take the incomes of both parents into consideration, and if she "earns" a lot more than he does, he may be off the hook.

 

They said he hasn't paid in a while and honestly I think that wording, rather than saying he's behind, is telling. I suspect you are right. There could be a legitimate reason he isn't paying but they are using it as another way to show him as some kind of deadbeat. We don't know for sure that he isn't but they have shown themselves to create reality and twist facts so I tend to lean toward assuming they are trying to make him look as bad as possible.

[Kohola3]

Who in their right mind wouldn't first FIND OUT if the adoption scenario is even possible before making such a major decision?

 

And "protecting the children" was the first thought on Meri's mind when Sobbin came on board?  She said she'd been thinking about divorce for 5 years.  

 

We know for sure that in ensuing years since the wedding there have been 2 or 3 visits to Jessop so 5 years ago he wasn't a deadbeat.  Is Meri clairvoyant or something?

 

Timeline, you idiots, try and keep your lies straight.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Kohola3

[parisprincess]

My question is, if by some miracle Kody was able to adopt the kids and something did happen to Robyn, who would actually raise them? Kody? (Hahahahaaaa)

Meri? Janelle? Christine? Wouldn't that have occurred to somebody to ask? Oh wait....

 

Since I don't believe for a moment that the dad is going to relinquish his rights to Robyn's kids, Kody will never be able to adopt them.  Someone needs to inform Robyn that, even married to Kody, if she were to die, the kids would go to their father, and if he, for some reason (illness or whatever) couldn't take them, they'd go to a blood relative before going to some moron with three common-law wives and 15-20 other kids.

[ginger90]

Did they say that Jessop is behind on child support or that he hasn't paid it?  With Robyn getting TLC money, it is possible that he isn't required to pay child support.  The courts take the incomes of both parents into consideration, and if she "earns" a lot more than he does, he may be off the hook.

This is so true. Robyn's ex could have gone for a modification of the order. I don't think there are many who wouldn't.

[Galloway Cave]

 

Robyn's ex could have gone for a modification of the order.

Especially since she has taken the kids further away from him and she appears to have full custody of them. It could also be deemed a hardship for him to visit on a regular basis. But what man in his right mind would want to come into that hornet's nest to pick up his children anyway? Can you imagine being greeted by Christine? Look how they treated her aunt at UNLV.

[SometimesBites]

Best he be portrayed as a dark villain hiding in the back woods.

Stealing cookies from unsuspecting virgins...

[boxerlove]

If they were really "all about the children", then when they fled Utah, they would have gone to Montana.   That way the kids would be geographically close to David Sr and Kody.  

[Christina]

It likely wouldn't matter.  How many of us have Nielsen boxes?

John Rogers, the screenwriter/showrunner of Leverage and The Librarians has stated that live viewing and dvr viewing from the major cable companies are counted too.

[leighroda]

I apologize to the mods in advance if this is in the wrong thread, it kinda loosely correlates, but I understand if you need to delete or move it... But did anyone see Robyns Twitter q & a where someone asked about her saying negative things about their father, and her answer was that the kids have never seen the show, that only the adults have seen it. For one, you mean to tell me your kids that all likely have access to the interwebz have never seen a show that features them? 2) don't the kids go to public school? I'm fairly confident that while their age groups are not target audiences of the show, I'm sure once they found out they know someone on the show, there is a good chance they have watched it, and could easily let the kids know what Robyn has said about their father (among other things).

I highly doubt they have Duggar level security on the Internet.

[Galloway Cave]

It's been discussed some in the Media thread. The Browns often post tweets of the entire family gathered to watch the show, so it wouldn't take much to find a pic of the kids watching. Plus if Robyn is comfortable saying the things she says about Jessop on camera, what in the world is she saying at home in front of the kids? There is also that very special Purity Episode, where she described in detail her sex life in front of her kids. Her daughters may be a little flighty but I don't think they are dumb. Day-un is a smart kid. They have to understand what she is saying.

[3girlsforus]

Not to mention I would think the kids might have had a question or two about why they had to start calling Kody 'Dad' when they had a dad. Even if they have a poor relationship with their father now for whatever reason (distance, brainwashing, dad issues) they clearly had a good relationship with him back then since Robyn was worried they would want to go live with him. So I can only imagine there was some questioning when they were being told to basically replace their dad

[AndreaF]

And speaking of their dad, I wonder that TLC didn't show their reactions when they found out that they would be moving far away from him.  TLC was SOOO worried about capturing the essence of the Brown kids' shock, horror and agony at having to run off in the dark of night, leaving everyone and everything that they knew and loved. 

 

I'm not being completely sarcastic here... I really do wonder how Robyn's kids reacted, or what they were even told to explain the move to begin with.    

[Galloway Cave]

Hee! Someone asked Robyn on Twitter if Kody would remarry Meri if/when he adopted the kids. Meri was tagged in the tweet. No answer from Robyn but Meri answered "No,that won't happen :)"

 

Robyn said the kids were asking her as soon as she was divorced when were they going to get a new dad. That is really hard to believe. A poster at CJ's who is a foster parent had a great post about how kids who are abused, who come from horrible homes and are removed and placed in foster care, almost always still care about their parents and worry about them. The poster said the only time that they see kids who don't want to return to their parents or who want "new parents" are ones who are severely physically/sexually abused, severely neglected or completely abandoned. Robyn has been shoving "new daddy" at these kids from day one, like it is the magical fix for everything.

 

I know some eagerly await the tell-all book from some of the Brown children; my guess the best seller will be from Day-un.

[missy jo]

I realized when I saw it that the "adoption" thing was a ruse, but thank you all for detailing the inconsistencies in the timeline and the obvious stuff like Meri thinking about divorce for five years, LOL. I think this hits the nail on the head:

 

I still think the whole scenario for the divorce and remarriage was mostly an excuse so that Kody could marry his favorite wife/soul mate.

 

[BlackWidow]

They will have to make sure Kody turns off his location ping for his tweets! That is their tell.

It's weird how the 'tell all's don't really tell jack, but nothing really needs to be told anymore, we know the basic bs that's going on already. Heck, you guys and the comments here are better than the show as far as entertainment value. What really sucks is aside from what we all think about what they're doing with their lives, is it's starting to hover on the fence of either bumming me out or just plain boring me.

[WalrusGirl]

Since I don't believe for a moment that the dad is going to relinquish his rights to Robyn's kids, Kody will never be able to adopt them. Someone needs to inform Robyn that, even married to Kody, if she were to die, the kids would go to their father, and if he, for some reason (illness or whatever) couldn't take them, they'd go to a blood relative before going to some moron with three common-law wives and 15-20 other kids.

Eh, if Robyn died and their dad couldn't take them for whatever reason, it's really up in the air. Blood relatives beyond the parents have no default legal rights to orphaned children. The family courts try to work in the best interests of the children, and they're all getting old enough to tell a judge where they want to live and have it count for a lot. True, the polygamy thing may well work against them, but those kids have seemingly-normal parental supervision, medical care, and are clothed in seasonally-appropriate attire (like coats) and in school. If Robyn's oldest three were orphaned while still minors (...which is fortunately exceedingly unlikely, since to our knowledge neither is ill and their circumstances wouldn't have them in a car accident together), and they said they wanted to stay with their little brother, step-siblings, and stepdad, leaving them where they are would be the likely outcome. They're reaching an age where they'd have a big say. (It sounds like 13 is a magic number in Montana on this front.)

But yeah - unless their dad is unable to take them for whatever reason, he still has joint legal custody. Dayton might be old enough to successfully push to stay where he is, and I do mean "might," but not the younger girls.

Of course, if Jessop doesn't have extensive means, I can see the Browns burying him in legal challenges and his giving up and agreeing to let them stay put with a Brown becoming a legal guardian. But if he's alive and willing/able to take them, he'd have to agree for one reason or another. (Which wouldn't necessarily be a lousy thing to do, if they're well cared for and actually want to stay put; he could agree while maintaining his rights and visitation.)

[3girlsforus]

I don't think their primary concern is what happens if Robyn dies. And it's not about the well-being of the kids. They want to erase Jessop from existence and pretend the kids were born from Kody. I have very little doubt that if Jessop signed legal papers saying that if Robyn dies he would continue with custody as is... in other words they could live with the Browns and their step siblings but he would continue to have his visitation etc just as he does now, that wouldn't be what they want. They want him not to exist. 

[TresGatos]

It would be so funny, in a cosmic sense, if David Jessup goes back to court alleging parental alienation, wins primary physical custody of his children and Robin ends up having to pay him child support.

[CofCinci]

Their primary concern is the tax break. Most likely they have to alternate years they can claim the kids with David Jessop.

[leighroda]

I don't think their primary concern is what happens if Robyn dies. And it's not about the well-being of the kids. They want to erase Jessop from existence and pretend the kids were born from Kody. I have very little doubt that if Jessop signed legal papers saying that if Robyn dies he would continue with custody as is... in other words they could live with the Browns and their step siblings but he would continue to have his visitation etc just as he does now, that wouldn't be what they want. They want him not to exist.

I agree that I don't think the issue is truly where the kids will go if something happened to Robyn, but they want to rewrite history, that they've been together from the beginning... Even Robyns little quote at the opening is something about how they should have been together from the beginning. They have been presenting the children as Brown's for years now.

In Robyns twitter q&a she claimed that it was the kids who want to be Browns, and that they were asking for a new dad from the time she got divorced... Something about that does not sit well with me and sets up a really unhealthy dynamic for those kids... But im not sure exactly what it is... Maybe it's more what it implies, but I just can't imagine, short of severe abuse to the children themselves that they would actively want a new dad, and I feel like if the kids were THAT severely abused where that is in fact the case Robyn would have played that card a long time ago and we would not be speculating about it.