S01.E16: The Blind Fortune Teller

[Miss Dee]

If that was the Joker, I buy it. Dude was creepy as fuck.

But the part that still haunts me is Prisoner #53A or whatever the hell it was. Giving the nod to tell big guy to start beating him to death for tthe good of the prison? Now *that* was a goddamn hero, the biggest I've seen yet on this show.

[Traveller519]

Every week I can feel Nygma's other shoe being lifted a little higher up before it's inevitable drop.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Traveller519

[Raachel2008]

The Fish story is totally ridiculous (no way she wouldn't have just been killed by these people a long time ago) but I'm still totally fascinated

 

 

I think Jada, over the top as she is, sells this ridiculous plot. It's hard, though. These guys had GUNS, yet they just bought Fish's bluff. Two ver annoying details there: Fish's naill polish is perfect and their captors seemed schocked when the prisoners started beating inmate 57A. Come on, those folks are pirates/kidnappers who take people's eye out. They wouldn't bat an eye.

[sacrebleu]

I agree with the posters who have mentioned Leslie's general "off-ness" She's a doctor who believes a psychic, and not only believes, but with such vehemence that she silence's Jim's objections.

Later she insists that they go traipsing around a park under a bridge at night to look for clues (not even waiting until after dinner apparently) and again, Jim is swayed.

 

I suspect they may be setting her up to have some kind of influence over Jim.

[Actionmage]

I believe there is something up with Leslie not because she believes in psychics, but, as sacrebleu noted:

 

 and not only believes, but with such vehemence that she silence's Jim's objections.

 

(italics mine)

There are plenty of folks in the sciences who have a spiritual side to them. It's that Leslie is seemingly unquestioning in her belief. That her shrug at Jim's dismissal of Cicero as just a glory-hogging fake is supposed to make Jim feel bad for not clapping for Tinkerbell or something. Granted, Jim has a log up his backside, but that is one of the areas where he's not far wrong.

[The Kings Foot]

1. We now have a rough timeline for Gotham - it is now  3 generations after  WWI

 

2. Hell-fire Club ? I thought we were getting a cross over with X-Men for a second.

 

3.  Gordon should have let Leslie walk out of that Police Station. He's letting Leslie push him around .

 

4. Young Joker was really creepy and really good - channeling both Nicholson and Ledger

 

5. Zasz does a pretty good Joker laugh himself

 

6. Mak Margolis was great as the Blind fortune Teller

 

7. Gotham actually has  a soundtrack now.

 

8. The first 15 minutes of Gotham could have come straight from Batman : The Animated Series. 

 

Lastly I see no contradiction with Leslie believing in Psychics.  Lots of doctors and most people believe in  an invisible power that controls everything. 

Edited February 18, 2015 by The Kings Foot

[Bandolero]

Jim and Leslie have loads of chemistry. She is beautiful to boot. It was just a little bit too much of her and "them" all coupled up. I hope it does not continue. I like the stick up his ass Jim who pairs so well with Harvey.

 

As someone else mentioned, I wish they would cool it with the lovey-dovey stuff at work. I mean they are both mature professionals... act like it. 

 

Hate to say it but Fish is just too over the top for me... I find her taking over the place to be quite unbelievable. I don't get why she wasn't shot in the head. Isn't that bad guys 101? Kill to keep the others in line. 

Edited February 18, 2015 by Bandolero

[Danielg342]

Heh. Just try to make fun of Oswald's mother...just try. You'll realize you're the fool soon enough, right before Oswald turns you into pieces with the um, pieces of glass.

 

...boy, it feels so wrong to laugh at a death...but it's the Penguin...how can you not be creepily charmed?

 

Speaking of charming, isn't Lee quite the charmer? Over-eager, yes, but I think Jimmy needs it...he plays it safe way too much, he needs someone to relax him and "take a leap", which is what Lee does. That, and Morena Baccharin is just adorable as Lee, isn't she? She's just so snuggly...I love it.

 

(I think I need a girl like that :'( ...anyway, enough of my sad Valentine's stories...)

 

Bullock was barely there, as was Nygma and Essen, but I can accept it since Lee needed some time to shine in the episode, plus all three got to contribute to the case. Furthermore, Bullock's comraderie with Gordon is just fun to watch...what a 180 he's done since the pilot, where he first wanted to shoot him and now he's his best friend. A loyal best friend.

 

(Almost kind of like a dog...but I don't mean that as a derogatory remark. Bullock's more of a pitbull- got a lot of bark, a lot of bite, but a lot of love and a lot of loyalty...maybe I'll take to calling him Dog from now on...or maybe not...)

 

Barbara...well, good to know Gotham hired Erin Richards for sex appeal, because, gosh, was Richards ever the bombshell in those clothes. I mean, she was Grade A sex in those clothes...A++ even...a total 10...hot babe...wowza...the superlatives could just go on.

 

Yet at the end of the day I was vaguely underwhelmed. It was so over the top that it made Barbara look like a desperate has-been...I agree with others who loved her chemistry with the kids because her maturity level seems to be right  there with them. I find that sad. Here I was, hoping we'd get a strong female character, someone who'd be worthy to be with Jim, but instead we've got an overgrown child that not even a desperate guy like me would want. Perhaps it's time I stop hoping for "strong Barbara" to show up...maybe if I lower my expectations, I might learn to like Barbara more. Might.

 

(On the other hand, if I chat up Barbara at the bar, she just might go home with me and make me happy in my pants...but then I think to myself, "man, I can do so much better, so why bother?)

 

Fish...as much as I enjoyed seeing her rise in the ranks of the prison, I would have liked it a lot more if I knew right away what the prison was for. It was awfully "convienient" that we learned it was a haven for organ transplants when we did learn it, because it seems like the writer was trying to find some way to have a standoff instead of working with what they were given.

 

The other plot hole is- why did those patients need to be alive? Organ transplants can still work if they're dead. You don't want them damaged, but "alive" is not necessary.

 

Then the Case of the Week...seemed a bit too simple to solve, but at this stage, I've come to accept it since I tune in more for the stories of Gotham's characters and how they all interact than I do for some complex mystery. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the show has ever tried a single misdirect in any of its cases- everything was straightforward.

 

I pegged the killer as the kid right when I saw him. Perhaps it had something to do with having seen Cameron Monaghan play a 12-year-old killer on Criminal Minds way back in 2007, but I also remember the first rule of detective fiction and that, more often than not, the culprit is usually the first person you see...and there was Jerome. Is Jerome The Joker? I don't know, I have my doubts...he was so "obvious" that it feels like a trick, but we'll see.

 

Finally...Victor. Great seeing Butch again, and great seeing the maniacal Victor at his best. Of all the henchmen, I think he's my favourite. Having said that, I echo what others have said in the hopes that Butch is just playing along and wasn't actually brainwashed...but, then again, part of me hopes that Victor's brainwashing worked, because we've seen Victor twice "on the job" and he failed both assignments (capture Gordon and capture Fish/Butch), and a third failure would make the character look ineffective. Then again, Anthony Carrigan is just so scary that even if he never has an on-screen success, I could always believe that he's good at his job.

 

Great episode overall.

[Danielg342]

One last, sobering thought about Lee- perhaps they're making Lee into some kind of "over the top", "perfect for Jim" girl because at some point, she will be taken from us...and by that I mean killed. Series like this don't like their happy ending...I could see the show ending Gordon's.

[cali1981]

I loved Leslie and Jim in this episode! I don't think she necessarily believed the guy was psychic but kept picking at the clue because Jim was so dismissive and well "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

She exactly the type of girlfriend straightlaced Jim Gordon needs. 

 

Absolutely!  Truth be told, Morena is still one of the hottest women on TV and a lot of us would sit and watch her read the want ads.  When she and Ben start macking, those two kids really put some oomph into their kisses.  Sure it's acting but who wouldn't trade places with Ben in the locker room scene.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I totally buy Barbara sitting down to eat Frute Brute with interlopers Kat and Ivy.  They seem to have the same level of maturity.

Maybe so, but I liked the female bonding there. I think Barbara's so miserable right now that having an all-girl slumber party was probably the most fun she's had in weeks. Jeez, she's just been spending  family time with her (as a previous poster said) American- Horror- Story- refugee parents.   Nothing like spending a little time with your cold withholding wire-mesh mother and father to further infantilize you when your life is falling apart.

Edited February 18, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Dobian]

TAKE THAT, BARBARA!!!  That felt good.

[Artsda]

Really loved the episode with the circus and all the Lee and Jim working on the case.

 

Barbara can go back far away and not come back.

[Snookums]

Who speaking of, how pathetic is Barbara that she is now hanging out with and taking advice from two 12 year old girls?

 

 

Who broke into her apartment! I guess she didn't get her doorman fired because he's kept his mouth shut to the gossip press about all the times she's stumbled home shitfaced. I did like the "Sailing?" thing, though.

 

The kid that played Jerome is good at playing unhinged and creepy. He also gives a good serial killer face

 

 

Where the hell did they find that actor, modelling for Halloween pumpkins? The show got pretty starkly Freudian there, what with drunken whore mom and her pet snake who can smell her out sending her son over the edge and all. Sometimes a cigar is not a cigar.

 

Still Lol at how flustered Jim was about pausing their date to go snooping.

 

 

I loved his bewildered exasperation level: "Is this all we're ever going to do? Not finish meals, do the world's worst police work when it comes to preserving a crime scene and not have sex?" Although they apparently rectified that by the end, heh. Also, actually seeing a character's living space! I was waiting for Leslie to actually say Here we are in my apartment having dinner in my apartment I HAVE AN APARTMENT THAT I LIVE IN. Because seriously the whole "Jim Gordon apparently unzips time and space to vanish into another dimension in his off hours" is becoming the Maris Crane of Gotham.

 

Bruce and Alfred's relationship is becoming more whacked out and untenable by the week. The guy's his GUARDIAN. That means he should not be Bruce's employee, for fuck's sake. He knows damn good and well what a shitheap Bruce is walking into and just purses his lips and offers some straw resistance before caving in completely. If he was really going to commit to this absurd notion of overindulging Bruce's masochistic/revenge/THIS CHILD NEEDS THERAPY methods of coping he should fucking lay it on the line: "You are a helpless child. You had it shoved into your face by your parents' murders and your attempts to dodge it are totally inadequate to the threat you're facing. These people will not hesitate to kill you, idiot child, and I am not going to let that happen. Put away the revenge string art before I get really angry."

 

Oh, and Bruce should have been limping. Horribly torqued ankles don't heal right up in a few days, especially when your guardian thinks responsible child care is letting you drag yourself up a hill in the dark.

 

Fish and her utter control of the prison and her manicure. Damn. If you can control when people get WATER you are a serious bad ass. But one thing I couldn't get--why the head wrap over the wig? Isn't the whole point that she can finally take the damn thing off?

 

But then I realized--the wig is the source of Fish's power. It whispers to her, tells her what to do. Of course she must keep it close.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Snookums

[FamilyVan]

perhaps they're making Lee into some kind of "over the top", "perfect for Jim" girl because at some point,

 

 

I don't think that she is perfect for Jim - I think there is something off with her also and I am interested to see where it goes.

[jaytee1812]

I pegged the killer as the kid right when I saw him. Perhaps it had something to do with having seen Cameron Monaghan play a 12-year-old killer on Criminal Minds way back in 2007, but I also remember the first rule of detective fiction and that, more often than not, the culprit is usually the first person you see...and there was Jerome. Is Jerome The Joker? I don't know, I have my doubts...he was so "obvious" that it feels like a trick, but we'll see.

 

Cameron Monaghan totally creeped me out in that Criminal Minds and he had the same effect here.

Also I love Jim and Lee together, they are so perfect for each other. So she's either evil or gonna die soon.

[Artsda]

Cameron Monaghan totally creeped me out in that Criminal Minds and he had the same effect here.

Also I love Jim and Lee together, they are so perfect for each other. So she's either evil or gonna die soon.

She was brought on with an option to become a regular member of the cast, hopefully they do that.

[33kaitykaity]

New to this forum, loved what I read here so far.  Gotham is one of my favorite shows, but I have a lot of homework to do on the show's mythology.  

 

Just wanted to add that I couldn't stand Jessica on Homeland.  I detested her for reasons I can't even begin to understand, much less explain, so imagine my chagrin when Morena Baccarin appeared on my screen.  But wow, I'm actually enjoying this character, Lee.  She's wicked smart, she's fun, knows what she wants and has a mind of her own.  

 

Nice job, Ms. B.  

[Actionmage]

Because seriously the whole "Jim Gordon apparently unzips time and space to vanish into another dimension in his off hours" is becoming the Maris Crane of Gotham.

 

That gave me a grin; thank you, Snookums!  Also IA with your Alfred points and ankle healing times. Bruce probably should have a little limp, minimum. He's at a time where he hasn't worn out his body's healing ability.

[Danielg342]

I assume she's pregnant with Little Babs and that's what will derail Jim/Leigh

Possibility could be that Jim takes on Batgirl and raises her with Lee...other than Hotch on Criminal Minds there aren't a lot of "single dads" on TV so it could be a nice storyline.

[tennisgurl]

I could get behind that 100%. I love Lee, and thinking about her turning evil, dying, or getting dumped for freaking Barbara is just depressing. 

[MisterGlass]

 

But then I realized--the wig is the source of Fish's power. It whispers to her, tells her what to do. Of course she must keep it close.

 

Oh, I needed that laugh :-)

 

I hope Lee gets to live and be a character - good, evil, or somewhere in the middle - for as long as she remains interesting and it is appropriate to the narrative.  Fridging her would be a waste.  It would be good for her to spend an episode or two in a less central position, though.  Not everything needs to tie in with her relationship with Jim.  That is part of the problem with Barbara - she never had any role other than as Jim's girlfriend.  At least Lee is the medical examiner, and can compete with Ed.

 

It was an interesting bit of continuity that Bruce's notebook had the dark and distrubing ink drawings that he was working on earlier this season.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

But then I realized--the wig is the source of Fish's power.

I was thinking this the whole time!  Like WHAT is it gonna take for Fish's wig to fall off?  

[APSimpson]

The young Joker was impressive. The way his demeanor and voice changed when he was found out. When he was talking about his mother, there was something about how he said it that reminded me of Heath Ledger or even Jack Nicholson, like he studied both for the role.

 

I know this is a show about Gordon, but he's becoming one of my least favorite characters. Maybe it's the way he handles women. I think the doctor will find out he cares about as much for her as he did Barbara. The doctor seems like a sweet person, though, but like I said, I think she'll become as frustrated as Babs did. Speaking of Barbara, I'm probably the only one here who likes her. I'll take her passion any day over Gordon's robotic indifference. The Gordon/Doctor romance has progressed quickly, almost too fast. So much for anticipation. Maybe they're setting her up to be killed off? Probably not because she's the new doctor on the team. The thought of her being a spy crossed my mind, too, but I doubt it. And did we really need Bullock to say "dude you got laid" or whatever he said to Gordon? Yeah, I chuckled, but really. 

 

I think Nygma is one of the most interesting characters on the show. I'd like to see more of him. The scene a few episodes ago with him and the Penguin was great. 

 

Count me in the camp who doesn't care about Fish. We get it, she's just so intimidating but the poor thing can't take down Falcone. Do something or get off the pot, Fish. Do they really want Falcone being the big crime boss of Gotham forever?

 

I adore Bruce, he's my favorite part of the show at the moment. Loved the scene of the boardroom meeting. Bruce is the moral center of the show for me, not Gordon.

[immortalfrieza]

Jim and Leslie have loads of chemistry. She is beautiful to boot. It was just a little bit too much of her and "them" all coupled up. I hope it does not continue. I like the stick up his ass Jim who pairs so well with Harvey.

 

As someone else mentioned, I wish they would cool it with the lovey-dovey stuff at work. I mean they are both mature professionals... act like it. 

 

Hate to say it but Fish is just too over the top for me... I find her taking over the place to be quite unbelievable. I don't get why she wasn't shot in the head. Isn't that bad guys 101? Kill to keep the others in line. 

That's what I was thinking (or hoping rather) they would do the entire time, even though I knew it wasn't going to happen. A bullet in Fish's brain to keep the rest in line and they'll just kill the rest of them and get more if that doesn't work.

 

The other plot hole is- why did those patients need to be alive? Organ transplants can still work if they're dead. You don't want them damaged, but "alive" is not necessary.

I don't think they do need to be alive, and even if they did need them alive to harvest viable organs from them they are a BLACK MARKET organ harvesters, it's not they really give a damn if said organs are compatible or otherwise substandard. As a matter of fact, these criminals could (and should) just kill the entire batch, harvest what they can, and just get another batch. There's no doubt hundreds of places across the planet that they could go to and kidnap a couple dozen more, those prisoners are a dime a dozen to an organization like that one, which is why Fish's entire speech about those prisoners having value is a load of crap.

[Shanna]

You can't keep organs in ice indefinitely and I'm sure they have doctors along the way to make sure the organs are comparable before implanting.

I imagine they cater to a very rich clientele so yes, organs need to be fresh, match types, etc. that's probably why they have the numbers in a database and call for specific people when they need them. It's a creepy plot but I don't have a problem with that aspect.

I know this is a show about Gordon, but he's becoming one of my least favorite characters. Maybe it's the way he handles women. I think the doctor will find out he cares about as much for her as he did Barbara. The doctor seems like a sweet person, though, but like I said, I think she'll become as frustrated as Babs did

I don't really get where you are coming with respect to jim treating Barbara poorly. Can you elaborate?

I actually don't know why Barbara left - freaked out by the danger or she just wanted her ex back? I actually like Barbara but she's a train wreck and it's clear that jim had nothing to do with making her that way. If anything, he was a good influence. Her ex and parents seem to make her want to drink and do drugs. Now let's see what kind of influence two street urchins have on her!!!

I'm not totally sold on Leslie for Jim but I am enjoying her.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Shanna

[truthaboutluv]

To each his own but yeah I can't see where Jim was awful to Barbara. He tried to keep his job away from her because he thought it was dangerous for her to know all the ins and outs of what was happening. I guess one can say it was a bit chauvinistic but at the same time, it's his job and police business which technically he probably shouldn't be telling a civilian. And the first time he opened up to her, she proved him right by going to the press, the exact thing he told her not to do.

 

Then he tells her the truth of what's going on, asks and explains to her why she needed to get out of town for a little bit, only for her to show up, decide on her own to go try and reason with a huge crime boss, almost getting herself and Jim killed. So naturally, she gets all freaked out and traumatized she was almost killed even though again, it happened because she decided to ignore exactly what he told her. And so she's traumatized and freaked out and decides to take it out on Jim because he can't be there everyday to hold her hand because he has a job to do.

 

So she ups and leaves, citing how scared she is and that she's apparently so traumatized by everything that she needs to just get away from Gotham and figure things out. Except her way of figuring things out is getting high and drunk, ignoring his calls and hooking back up with her female ex who incidentally is more or less in the same line of dangerous work that Jim does. Now a lot of this can definitely be blamed on the writers who really do seem completely confused as to what they're doing with Barbara's character but it definitely makes me disagree that Jim has somehow been unfair to her. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Snookums]

You can't keep organs in ice indefinitely and I'm sure they have doctors along the way to make sure the organs are comparable before implanting.

I imagine they cater to a very rich clientele so yes, organs need to be fresh, match types, etc. that's probably why they have the numbers in a database and call for specific people when they need them. It's a creepy plot but I don't have a problem with that aspect.

 

 

Yes, organs start to deteriorate pretty much as soon as a person dies or they are removed. The donatee has to be prepped and ready by the time the organ arrives, usually only an hour or two after the donator passes. There'd be absolutely no money in "pretty fresh" kidneys or "hey, beggars can't be choosers" bakery second-day livers. 

[immortalfrieza]

Yes, organs start to deteriorate pretty much as soon as a person dies or they are removed. The donatee has to be prepped and ready by the time the organ arrives, usually only an hour or two after the donator passes. There'd be absolutely no money in "pretty fresh" kidneys or "hey, beggars can't be choosers" bakery second-day livers. 

If we were talking about actual hospitals run by people that care and are required by law to make as sure as humanly possible the organs work yes, but we're talking about black market organ thieves. Rich or not, the clientele that these people serve are a bunch of desperate "I or somebody I care about is going to die any day now" types that are perfectly aware they are getting their organs from an illegal source that is concerned solely with quantity over quality when it comes to what they are getting and thus is just slightly less likely to kill them than whatever already is. Sure, they might get more money for quality organs but in the end of the day the people that are in this sort of business don't have reason to give a damn about the lives of their customers nor do they have reason to care about the victims they're using to harvest organs from, there is more than enough people out there desperate enough that they can still make plenty of money off of organs even if they are substandard.

[Ailianna]

But this type of business is largely word of mouth (can't exactly advertise on TV), so if it gets out that they are giving bad organs, the rich, desperate clientele will go to other sources. These guys can't be the only black market organ harvesters out there.

[Snookums]

Right. Rich desperate people don't have to run down to the "Shop-Rite Bargain Organ" pirating thief co-op. There's no point in selling substandard merchandise.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Count me in the camp who doesn't care about Fish. We get it, she's just so intimidating but the poor thing can't take down Falcone. Do something or get off the pot, Fish. Do they really want Falcone being the big crime boss of Gotham forever?

 

In case what's been in the movies and the comics is considered a spoiler:

 

In both the Nolan movies and such comics as Batman: Year One and Batman: The Long Halloween, Falcone remains in power through Batman's early adventures, with Maroni remaining the No. 2 gangster in Gotham. So presumably, Gotham won't depart radically from those portrayals. I mean, it's possible that Fish could exile Falcone for a bit, or Maroni could temporarily get the upper hand or something. But I would think they are both going to be alive, free, and up to no good for the entirety of the show.

 

[APSimpson]

Chicago Redshirt - thanks for the clarification, I'm not familiar with the comics so I didn't know Falcone was an established character. Thought they made him up for the show.

[Shanna]

that they can still make plenty of money off of organs even if they are substandard.

Heh, it's not substandard it's working body parts versus non working body parts. And if blood types (or other markers) don't match your body will reject the organ anyway. You wouldn't make much money when all of yor patient died. Better to park yourself on the transplant list and hope for the best.

And I have officially thought too much about this business! Maybe we can see the balance sheet next week.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Danielg342]

Right. Rich desperate people don't have to run down to the "Shop-Rite Bargain Organ" pirating thief co-op. There's no point in selling substandard merchandise.

I think my thing is that, while I would agree that the prisoners would need to stay alive (and would likely have their needs to be tended to, up to a point), I'm not sure what difference it would make if, when the harvesters pick up their next victim, that victim comes to them alive or "just freshly dead", as was the case in this episode. Sure, it's this "grand show" of "you mess with us, we'll mess with you" but it's ineffective, since I can't see what leverage would be gained. If I was Schmidt, I'd take a look at what the other prisoners did, shurg my shoulders and tell the prisoners, "thanks for doing my job. We were going to do that at the top anyway." Someone who's "freshly dead" would still have good organs to harvest, even one, I presume, that was beaten to death like the poor victim here.

I also openly wonder why no prisoner thought of that before Fish, and why the prison never thought of this scenario arising in the first place. For such critical "investments", they sure didn't organize their plan very well. At the very least, you'd expect the guards to respond to one prisoner committing suicide before they could be taken by, say, taking ten at random and killing them right there. Yeah, they'd lose some organs along the way, but as others noted, those prisoners a "dime a dozen"- they're easily replaceable if anything goes wrong.

I get that Bruno Heller wanted to be cagey and didn't want to reveal everything right away, but this was poorly thought out. I can't be invested in the mystery if I see no logic to it, and there is no logic to it.

[JoeSchwike]

I thought the show missed the boat by Jim (or Lee) not getting Nygma involved - the psychic gives you a RIDDLE- why wouldn't you run it by the one character that is bringing up riddles at every crime scene?  I thought that would have been a good opportunity to use one of his defining (if annoying) traits for a productive purpose.

[Snookums]

, I'm not sure what difference it would make if, when the harvesters pick up their next victim, that victim comes to them alive or "just freshly dead", as was the case in this episode.

 

 

Sorry to be so pendantic about this, :) Organs, once death occurs, start to break down almost immediately. The more cellular breakdown, the greater the chance of rejection, and the shorter the life of the transplanted organ into the recipient. Transplant patients who receive an organ from a live/just passed person (that is, organs removed from a person literally seconds after death is declared and transplanted immediately) live significantly longer lives with far less problems and side effects then people who receive them from deceased patients, even if it's only an hour or two. That's why people on waiting lists for organs have to live or move temporarily to the area housing the hospital where the transplant will occur, because time is everything.

 

Plus, many organs cannot be used from accident and trauma victims because they're too bruised or pulped (say, from a car accident--or a beating) and wouldn't be able to heal while trying to integrate into a new system.

 

So Fish's idea is sound. A person who's murdered by brutal beating or throat slitting is a person whose organ value plummets. And I'm guessing the kind of people who can pay for this setup are the kind of people who aren't going to go with second hand goods. The black market for organ transplants is global and busy. 

[Danielg342]

Sorry to be so pendantic about this, :) Organs, once death occurs, start to break down almost immediately. The more cellular breakdown, the greater the chance of rejection, and the shorter the life of the transplanted organ into the recipient. Transplant patients who receive an organ from a live/just passed person (that is, organs removed from a person literally seconds after death is declared and transplanted immediately) live significantly longer lives with far less problems and side effects then people who receive them from deceased patients, even if it's only an hour or two. That's why people on waiting lists for organs have to live or move temporarily to the area housing the hospital where the transplant will occur, because time is everything.

Plus, many organs cannot be used from accident and trauma victims because they're too bruised or pulped (say, from a car accident--or a beating) and wouldn't be able to heal while trying to integrate into a new system.

So Fish's idea is sound. A person who's murdered by brutal beating or throat slitting is a person whose organ value plummets. And I'm guessing the kind of people who can pay for this setup are the kind of people who aren't going to go with second hand goods. The black market for organ transplants is global and busy.

Thank you for the information. :) Did not know that.

Which leads to the other problem I had- why wasn't Schmidt's response to take Fish, kill her, and take 10 random prisoners (or seemingly random prisoners) and shoot them right there? That would send a message about any further “funny business.”

[Hook75]

I think Nygma is one of the most interesting characters on the show. I'd like to see more of him. The scene a few episodes ago with him and the Penguin was great. 

 

He is my favorite and I'm rooting for him to get the girl!

 

I do not like Fish, can someone kill her please?

[APSimpson]

I don't really get where you are coming with respect to jim treating Barbara poorly. Can you elaborate?

I actually don't know why Barbara left - freaked out by the danger or she just wanted her ex back? I actually like Barbara but she's a train wreck and it's clear that jim had nothing to do with making her that way. If anything, he was a good influence. Her ex and parents seem to make her want to drink and do drugs. Now let's see what kind of influence two street urchins have on her!!!

I'm not totally sold on Leslie for Jim but I am enjoying her.

 

It's not so much that Jim treated her poorly, and after all, she did walk out on him, but I think Barbara left because she realized she was chasing Jim and not the other way around. She left because of pride, realizing she is obsessed with Jim and he doesn't feel that way about her. I don't think he really had any feelings for Barbara and he was quick to move on from her. Some women want to be chased, and alpha males don't chase women, generally speaking. This is why women are always frustrated with men! Why won't he open up? Why won't he pay attention to my feelings, etc. Gordon is kind of spoiled with women, and the doctor throwing herself at him is a good example of that. He has options so he's not going to get stuck on Barbara. You can even say Jim upgraded in the doctor who is sweet, affectionate and kinda like a pal, not to mention her attractiveness. But does Jim deserve her? The way he handled Barbara tells me a lot. He didn't love her. He puts a small amount of effort into the relationship; she did all the work and she got frustrated and left. I can relate to that so I sympathize with Barbara and she's actually one of my favorite characters on the show. I'll take her emotion any day over Jim's devil-may-care attitude. To Jim, I think, women serve a role, a function. He expects them to be there, in an orderly fashion. Every time he walked into the apartment, he said "Barbara?" expecting her to be there. Serving a role. Maybe I'm being unfair to Jim, but he strikes me as an unfeeling type of guy. He wants to kiss and hook up put I don't think he's going to get attached too much, and like I said I think the doctor will find that out too or I'm totally wrong and they'll be the most awesome super-duper trendy couple on television. Both are attractive people in control of their emotions with no flaws. They're "strong" people with no insecurity. How boring is that? They're the cool kids who never go without having someone in their life. I just don't care about Gordon or Leslie or their relationship. I care about Barbara, though, despite her substance abuse issues, and I hope the writers handle her gentler if we see her again.

[Shanna]

Thank you for explaining. I can't say I agree with any of it but ymmv. Jim wasn't chasing Barbara because they were already in a committed relationship and had been for some time. I think he loved her and took it hard when she left, but he is not required to sit around forever either.

[Perfect Xero]

It's not so much that Jim treated her poorly, and after all, she did walk out on him, but I think Barbara left because she realized she was chasing Jim and not the other way around. She left because of pride, realizing she is obsessed with Jim and he doesn't feel that way about her. I don't think he really had any feelings for Barbara and he was quick to move on from her. Some women want to be chased, and alpha males don't chase women, generally speaking. This is why women are always frustrated with men! Why won't he open up? Why won't he pay attention to my feelings, etc. Gordon is kind of spoiled with women, and the doctor throwing herself at him is a good example of that. He has options so he's not going to get stuck on Barbara. You can even say Jim upgraded in the doctor who is sweet, affectionate and kinda like a pal, not to mention her attractiveness. But does Jim deserve her? The way he handled Barbara tells me a lot. He didn't love her. He puts a small amount of effort into the relationship; she did all the work and she got frustrated and left. I can relate to that so I sympathize with Barbara and she's actually one of my favorite characters on the show. I'll take her emotion any day over Jim's devil-may-care attitude. To Jim, I think, women serve a role, a function. He expects them to be there, in an orderly fashion. Every time he walked into the apartment, he said "Barbara?" expecting her to be there. Serving a role. Maybe I'm being unfair to Jim, but he strikes me as an unfeeling type of guy. He wants to kiss and hook up put I don't think he's going to get attached too much, and like I said I think the doctor will find that out too or I'm totally wrong and they'll be the most awesome super-duper trendy couple on television. Both are attractive people in control of their emotions with no flaws. They're "strong" people with no insecurity. How boring is that? They're the cool kids who never go without having someone in their life. I just don't care about Gordon or Leslie or their relationship. I care about Barbara, though, despite her substance abuse issues, and I hope the writers handle her gentler if we see her again.

 

I don't agree with any of this. What work did Barbara put in to their relationship? She met up with her ex and believed her when she said Jim was a corrupt murderer. She constantly pushed him to reveal things about his job as a police officer. Then when he did, she always did the exact opposite of what he asked her to do with the information. Going to the press, going to Falcone.

 

His saying her name when he entered her house is supposed to be a mark against him? I'd call it being polite and letting her know he was there. As for why he'd expect her to be there, probably because it was literally the only place she ever was. When he wasn't there she was smoking pot and meeting up with her ex behind his back.

 

He was going through life and death, Falcone, police corruption insanity, and she left him with a letter, lying about where she was going, and then spent weeks hooking up with her ex and doing drugs.

 

She went weeks without communicating with him, so he finally assumed she was telling them that the relationship was over and moved on. If Montoya hadn't got tired of supporting her addiction she'd probably still be with her in a drugged out haze.

[APSimpson]

Thank you for explaining. I can't say I agree with any of it but ymmv. Jim wasn't chasing Barbara because they were already in a committed relationship and had been for some time. I think he loved her and took it hard when she left, but he is not required to sit around forever either.

 

I think you can be in an established relationship and still have someone be the chaser and chasee. Sure, they were a couple, but sometimes one person has more power over the other in a couple dynamic. The person who is needy and seeks validation or reinforcement from the other partner and they're not getting it, they're always chasing after that, thus the chaser. Barbara was the chaser. Barbara wanted to be a partner to Jim, not just someone waiting at home for him.

[Shanna]

Or maybe Barbara is just needy and it wasn't Jim's fault?

I mean, I enjoyed the hell out of this business with Selena and ivy but she's taking advice from street urchins who had to advise her to be less trashy and messed up. She got kicked out by her ex because she couldn't get her shit together. She was a mess long before she met him. clearly a wreck.

[APSimpson]

I don't agree with any of this. What work did Barbara put in to their relationship? She met up with her ex and believed her when she said Jim was a corrupt murderer. She constantly pushed him to reveal things about his job as a police officer. Then when he did, she always did the exact opposite of what he asked her to do with the information. Going to the press, going to Falcone.

 

His saying her name when he entered her house is supposed to be a mark against him? I'd call it being polite and letting her know he was there. As for why he'd expect her to be there, probably because it was literally the only place she ever was. When he wasn't there she was smoking pot and meeting up with her ex behind his back.

 

He was going through life and death, Falcone, police corruption insanity, and she left him with a letter, lying about where she was going, and then spent weeks hooking up with her ex and doing drugs.

 

She went weeks without communicating with him, so he finally assumed she was telling them that the relationship was over and moved on. If Montoya hadn't got tired of supporting her addiction she'd probably still be with her in a drugged out haze.

 

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I just think Jim was indifferent to Barbara's problems, and I don't think the drug issue was all that a factor in their relationship. Jim never put his foot down about it or anything. She pressed about his job because I think she wanted to feel like a part of what he was doing, like a partner to him, someone equal to him. That's what motivated her to meddle in things. 

 

I think Jim even said "Barbara?" after he entered the apartment one time even long after she had left. He still expected her to be there and fulfill that role for him.

 

I just think Barbara is a damaged person because she loves Jim and he didn't reciprocate the way she needed him to. Is that all Jim's fault? No, both are to blame, but I don't think Jim ever loved Barbara. A man who loves a  woman is not going to just turn the page and move on. He's going to make more of an effort to rectify things or have closure. Jim is a police officer, I'm sure he could have tracked her down if he really wanted to.

[Perfect Xero]

I think Jim even said "Barbara?" after he entered the apartment one time even long after she had left. He still expected her to be there and fulfill that role for him.

 

I'm not sure why this is an issue though? Why does saying her name mean anything other than checking to see if she's home/letting her know who has entered her apartment? How is it asking her to fill a role?

 

Also, first thing that Barbara said after entering her apartment for the first time in the last episode, "Jim?"

Edited February 23, 2015 by Perfect Xero

[MisterGlass]

 

I think you can be in an established relationship and still have someone be the chaser and chasee. Sure, they were a couple, but sometimes one person has more power over the other in a couple dynamic. The person who is needy and seeks validation or reinforcement from the other partner and they're not getting it, they're always chasing after that, thus the chaser. Barbara was the chaser. Barbara wanted to be a partner to Jim, not just someone waiting at home for him.

 

 

I think Jim even said "Barbara?" after he entered the apartment one time even long after she had left. He still expected her to be there and fulfill that role for him.

 

I just think Barbara is a damaged person because she loves Jim and he didn't reciprocate the way she needed him to. Is that all Jim's fault? No, both are to blame, but I don't think Jim ever loved Barbara. A man who loves a  woman is not going to just turn the page and move on. He's going to make more of an effort to rectify things or have closure. Jim is a police officer, I'm sure he could have tracked her down if he really wanted to.

That would be stalking, and an abuse of his position.  He called her multiple times, and she never responded.  He took the hint.  Yes, Jim called out to her to see if she's there when he enters the apartment, even when he was going to drop off his keys for the last time.  Like some other posters, I think that's standard, and it's polite to say something so you aren't scaring your partner, especially if you are coming in at an odd time.

 

Your comment about the chaser/chasee dynamic - I agree that Barbara was always seeking more from Jim, but I think that was a sign of how unhealthy their relationship was for both of them.  They were not well matched when it came to handling the kind of challenges they began to encounter.  Jim is a person with a calling - a big difference from a person with a job.  It is not something he can give up or sideline, which means he will not be the right person for every relationship.  I don't think that means that he didn't love Barbara or wasn't committed to her.  Partners do lean on one another in trying times, but there is  - or should be - an equilibrium between them.  It should not be Jim's responsibility to provide constant validation.  If that is what Barbara needs, she should be with a therapist, and avoid relationships until she has more sense of self-worth and can come to them as an equal partner.

 

I signed in to say that I wonder if some of Lee's impulsiveness is so that she can fill a place in plotlines that were originally envisioned for Barbara.  If so, having her fill in, and behave like, the character she is displacing is not a good way to distinguish her.

[Camera One]

I really enjoyed this episode. Gordon and the Doctor were fun.  It's nice to lighten the show up a little.

 

It was nice to see the case-of-the-week with the backstory of a potential hero (Robin), though of course we also got the flip-side and the backstory of (potentially) the Joker.  I thought the actor who played the deranged teenager was very good and he has the look down.  Very creepy and unsettling.  I expected him to start beating his father with the stick.  

 

The Fish stuff was suspenseful, though I agree it was unlikely those guys didn't just shoot her.  

 

I hope Bruce actually has a plan, and he's pushing the Board's buttons to get them to make a mistake.  Otherwise, what he did was not too bright.  Though he was pretty awesome in that Boardroom.  The kid is awesome with his weird authoritative way of speaking.  Alfred was pretty funny with his "don't blame me if we're both found in a ditch" comment.  

[Raja]

 

 

Fish is a fascinating character, but did they intend for her to be so prominent or is it a reaction to how popular the character became? Her prison drama is interesting, tho far-fetched - but she's a merciless killer and not exactly someone I'd root for in a fight. Are we supposed to root for lesser monsters versus larger monsters? 

 

 

In the end isn't that what the Batman is? We just trust his judgement as he goes vigilante more than the corrupt Gotham justice system.

[Danielg342]

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I just think Jim was indifferent to Barbara's problems, and I don't think the drug issue was all that a factor in their relationship. Jim never put his foot down about it or anything. She pressed about his job because I think she wanted to feel like a part of what he was doing, like a partner to him, someone equal to him. That's what motivated her to meddle in things.

I think Jim even said "Barbara?" after he entered the apartment one time even long after she had left. He still expected her to be there and fulfill that role for him.

I just think Barbara is a damaged person because she loves Jim and he didn't reciprocate the way she needed him to. Is that all Jim's fault? No, both are to blame, but I don't think Jim ever loved Barbara. A man who loves a woman is not going to just turn the page and move on. He's going to make more of an effort to rectify things or have closure. Jim is a police officer, I'm sure he could have tracked her down if he really wanted to.

I think you're conflating Jim Gordon's stoicism and uptightness as indifference, and I think Gordon is anything but indifferent. Look how much effort Lee put in just to get Gordon to open up to her- Gordon wanted to do it, he just needed the right kind of prodding.

Furthermore, it's not like Gordon never tried to care for her to cater to Barbara's needs- he literally put her on a bus at the start of “Penguin's Umbrella” because he was worried for her safety. If that's not a show of love and caring for Barbara, I don't know what is. Forceful? Yeah it was, and perhaps Gordon should have asked Barbara what she wanted to do instead of assume, but it's not like Gordon didn't try to help her.

Fact of the matter is, Jim Gordon isn't going to be the type that lets his feelings out “for all to see”- he's the kind of guy that feels the need to “always be strong” and “always in charge”, perhaps afraid that the slightest bit of vulnerability makes him appear weak. I also think his display of strength is a front for his many insecurities, and thus he needs someone who will pick him up when he feels down. Barbara, then, clearly isn't for him.