S03.E10: Left Behind

[apinknightmare]

I'm honestly shocked as to how many people are complaining about Felicity turning off the lights. It's not like she changed all the codes and blew the place up. She was upset, it was symbolic, and if Roy or Diggle wanted to see they could've hauled ass up the steps and turned them back on. 

 

It's funny, watching this show now and checking message boards, seeing the things people pick out. I never would've guessed anyone had a problem with Laurel turning off the TV in the first ep either. To me, Oliver treated her like shit, she knew people judged her, gossiped about her, and thought she was a fool. The last thing she probably wanted to do was sit there with her coworkers and listen to all of that rehashed in front of them. She was probably humiliated (and yes, I know there have been things that have happened since then that could be argued to death about what she felt. But that the time? I didn't think a single thing of it). She could've left the room if she didn't want to hear it, but it was more of a quiet statement letting everyone know that there wasn't an open season on that part of her life. 

 

I know this isn't the place for that particular comment, but since my first comment about Felicity is relevant and we are discussing the criticizing of women who show emotion, I'm gonna leave it.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Yeah, Lance in a car chase was ridiculous but I guess that heart is okay!

 

Off-topic question...did they ever explain what happened to Lance at the end of Season 2?  Considering he was spitting up blood, I thought he had been poisoned but this season it seems to have been written off as a bad heart.

He had internal injuries, and spent some time in a coma. Not sure how that creates a heart condition where it's OK to have a high stress job and participate in car chases, but if someone tells you that your missing assassin daughter is no longer alive, you will instantly croak.

 

I figured they might at least start the process of Oliver's resurrection this episode, but my secret wish (which I knew wouldn't come true) was for Sara to be standing there as Oliver emerged from the Lazarus Pit, saying something like "I know, right?"

Edited January 22, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[BkWurm1]

Anyway, I feel sort of...underwhelmed by this episode

 

Agreed.  There was emotion but it seems like all we've had was emotion this season so sadly Oliver's death kind of feels like just more of the same. 

[apinknightmare]

He had internal injuries, and spent some time in a coma. Not sure how that creates a heart condition where it's OK to have a high stress job and participate in car chases, but if someone tells you that your missing assasin daughter is no longer alive, you will instantly croak.

 

He also had a heart issue in the first ep of the season, when Oliver went to fight Vertigo. It wasn't an attack, but it was some kind of something that hospitalized him and will obviously kill him if he finds out his youngest daughter is dead (again)!

[calliope1975]

Agreed.  There was emotion but it seems like all we've had was emotion this season so sadly Oliver's death kind of feels like just more of the same. 

 

THAT is exactly how I felt watching. Way too much sadness this season. Coupled with knowing that Oliver isn't actually dead and now I'm stuck waiting until he returns for the show to pick up speed. 

[JenMcSnark]

I'm honestly shocked as to how many people are complaining about Felicity turning off the lights. It's not like she changed all the codes and blew the place up. She was upset, it was symbolic, and if Roy or Diggle wanted to see they could've hauled ass up the steps and turned them back on. 

 

It's funny, watching this show now and checking message boards, seeing the things people pick out. I never would've guessed anyone had a problem with Laurel turning off the TV in the first ep either. To me, Oliver treated her like shit, she knew people judged her, gossiped about her, and thought she was a fool. The last thing she probably wanted to do was sit there with her coworkers and listen to all of that rehashed in front of them. She was probably humiliated (and yes, I know there have been things that have happened since then that could be argued to death about what she felt. But that the time? I didn't think a single thing of it). She could've left the room if she didn't want to hear it, but it was more of a quiet statement letting everyone know that there wasn't an open season on that part of her life. 

 

I know this isn't the place for that particular comment, but since my first comment about Felicity is relevant and we are discussing the criticizing of women who show emotion, I'm gonna leave it.

That's pretty logical and you've almost swayed me.  But I do think it's more rude to turn off a television that others are watching and interested in.  Maybe if she would have made some sort of statement to imply what you spelled out.  I didn't really hate her doing it, but I thought it was rude.  More rude than the very specific statement that Felicity made when turning off the lights. 

 

Maybe because I've had someone change a tv in a sports bar when I've been watching a not so popular game.  haha

[apinknightmare]

That's pretty logical and you've almost swayed me.  But I do think it's more rude to turn off a television that others are watching and interested in.  Maybe if she would have made some sort of statement to imply what you spelled out.  I didn't really hate her doing it, but I thought it was rude.  More rude than the very specific statement that Felicity made when turning off the lights. 

 

Maybe because I've had someone change a tv in a sports bar when I've been watching a not so popular game.  haha

 

It's rude, but, I don't know...I guess I just don't understand why anyone cares that much about it? They were both done in highly charged emotional moments, and who hasn't acted on impulse and done questionable things when they're upset? It's just funny because I still see the TV thing brought up and I never once thought anything of it until I started visiting message boards. I wouldn't have thought anything of Felicity turning off the lights, either.

[Actionmage]

and if Roy or Diggle wanted to see they could've hauled ass up the steps and turned them back on.

 

IIRC, the  lights off led into an ad break. I sat there and mused, "She knows they can turn the lights on, right?" *g*

 

So. Brick steals evidence, but hangs onto it to blackmail these gits. There goes any future trials; they were coerced by Brick due to past bad acts. Or is that wrong? (Legal folks? Bueller?)  Since they were never convicted of those crimes, they were blackmailed?

[catrox14]

To me it was the context, the surroundings and well frankly the acting.  Felicity is right in the middle of trying to cope with not wanting to believe Oliver is dead and being forced to consider that possibliity. It's her domain along with Dig and Roy.  She left and turned out the lights because she was calling an end to it all out of fear and grief. 

 

Laurel was pissed off because a group of her co workers were watching the biggest news story to hit Starling City in years with her ex boyfriend being found alive. So she just goes over and turns off the thing they are all watching.

 

I just don't find them comparable at all. MV

[NoWayOut]

I'm honestly shocked as to how many people are complaining about Felicity turning off the lights. It's not like she changed all the codes and blew the place up. She was upset, it was symbolic, and if Roy or Diggle wanted to see they could've hauled ass up the steps and turned them back on.

 Yeah, I personally don't mind her turning off the lights as much now. It was unnecessary but it was meant to be symbolic and less "how could she!" considering her statement earlier in the episode. She lost focus.

 

Edited January 22, 2015 by NoWayOut

[manbearpig]

Symbolic or not it was still a dick move on Felicity's part. But considering the circumstances I'll not hold it against her.

[catrox14]

A dick move?  Eh I really don't think so. It's not like Roy and Dig are incapable of flipping the switch to turn the lights back on.  A dick move would be her disabling the computers and locking them out of the lair.  But she didn't do that. She flipped a freaking light switch. 

[apinknightmare]

To me it was the context, the surroundings and well frankly the acting.  Felicity is right in the middle of trying to cope with not wanting to believe Oliver is dead and being forced to consider that possibliity. It's her domain along with Dig and Roy.  She left and turned out the lights because she was calling an end to it all out of fear and grief. 

 

Laurel was pissed off because a group of her co workers were watching the biggest news story to hit Starling City in years with her ex boyfriend being found alive. So she just goes over and turns off the thing they are all watching.

 

I just don't find them comparable at all. MV

 

They're comparable in that they're emotional reactions to awful situations. IMO, Felicity's way of dealing isn't any more right than Laurel's. Laurel wasn't pissed off that her coworkers were watching a news story, she was upset that they were watching a news story that involved an embarrassing hurtful time in her past and ended with her sister being dead. I don't blame her for walking up and turning it off. If they wanted to watch it they could've turned it back on after she walked away or gone and Googled it. It just bothers me that Felicity and Laurel are being called rude for how they react to these highly emotional situations. Laurel didn't throw the TV to the ground and break it so no one could ever watch it again. Felicity didn't blow up the cave. It was a momentary way of dealing with things, like...who even cares that much to judge someone about it? Obviously people do, I just really do not understand it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I'm at a loss at this whole conversation. With everything that happened, the fact that Felicity turned off the lights is such a point of discussion? Such a mark against her character? 

 

She just lost Oliver and almost lost Diggle and Roy. Then got yelled at for caring. She was out. Done. She wasn't going to help another one die. So yeah, she turned off the lights. I fully believe she wanted them out of there.

[manbearpig]

Intentionally turning off the lights while people are still in the room is not nice though. It was a passive aggressive way for her to make a point. It doesn't even bother me that much, but I do think it was rude. Would've been funny to see Diggle or Roy stumble up the stairs and search for the light though.

[calliope1975]

I think both situations were rude but also understandable. If I was in a discussion, especially a highly charged emotional discussion, and the other person walked off, turned the lights off while I'm still standing there, and left, I would be all "What the hell?" I could then also realize that it was an emotional reaction that doesn't mean that person is mean or horrible. In comparison, I've actually had people walk into a room and change the channel while I was watching TV, and that was also rude. That person didn't even have a legitimate reason, they were just a jerk and wanted to watch something else without asking if that was okay. I don't hate that person, but it was still rude.

 

I'm at a loss at this whole conversation. With everything that happened, the fact that Felicity turned off the lights is such a point of discussion? Such a mark against her character?

 

 

Yeah, you're right. I don't know if this is just hyperactive nitpicking or the episode wasn't interesting enough to generate more discussion on something else.

Edited January 22, 2015 by calliope1975

[apinknightmare]

I'm at a loss at this whole conversation. With everything that happened, the fact that Felicity turned off the lights is such a point of discussion? Such a mark against her character? 

 

She just lost Oliver and almost lost Diggle and Roy. Then got yelled at for caring. She was out. Done. She wasn't going to help another one die. So yeah, she turned off the lights. I fully believe she wanted them out of there.

 

HOW DARE SHE. Being all emotional and saving kilowatt hours! Monster.

[steelyis]

I'm at a loss at this whole conversation. With everything that happened, the fact that Felicity turned off the lights is such a point of discussion? Such a mark against her character? 

 

She just lost Oliver and almost lost Diggle and Roy. Then got yelled at for caring. She was out. Done. She wasn't going to help another one die. So yeah, she turned off the lights. I fully believe she wanted them out of there.

 

 

To me it reinforces how blah and pointless this episode was that the biggest topic of conversation is a light switch, and the flipping of said light switch.

[pivot]

Man Arrow discussions are starting to depress me everywhere. Somehow it always ends up with fans bashing a female character. Laurel gets picked apart for EVERYTHING and if Felicity shows one flaw, the other side of the fanbase turns on her.

It's just kind of sucky. And the Felicity vs Laurel attitude is depressing and boring and pretty anti-woman

There is nothing anti-woman about disliking a female character and/or actress. Laurel is a completely unnecessary character who doesn't fit with the rest of the show and Katie Cassidy has zero chemistry with anyone else on the cast and can't act her way out of a paper bag. Nothing to do with her gender.

I do think it is pretty telling that KC/Laurel couldn't get a twitter trend tonight. People just aren't interested and nothing they do is going to change that.

[catrox14]

It's not nice but it's not passive aggressive either. To me it was pretty direct. She said she was done with all of it and turned off the lights. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by catrox14

[TanyaKay]

Just wanted to point out that if Captain Lance is ok enough to be involved in high speed car chase, then his heart is in mint condition and he should be told ASAP that his youngest daughter is dead, dead, DEAD.

Thank you.

[Chaser]

Was there really no twitter trend? 

 

That honestly surprises me because I would have put money on a Black Canary one at least. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

Was there really no twitter trend?

That honestly surprises me because I would have put money on a Black Canary one at least.

There were a couple (in the US, at least), but no BC trends. Even the mid season finale trend dropped off halfway through the west coast airing. And MG/CH/DR and EBR were tweeting during it. But they didn't for whatever reason use the same hashtags. Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[TanyaKay]

There were a couple (in the US, at least), but no BC trends. Even the mid season finale trend dropped off halfway through the west coast airing. And MG/CH/DR and EBR were tweeting during it. But they didn't for whatever reason use the same hashtags.

 

ArrowMidseasonPremiere was trending worldwide throughout the east coast airing time.

Poor Felicity, Felicity, Diggle and Maseo all trended. I have posted screen shots in an earlier post. Black Canary did not trend but considering the fact that KC's most vocal fans (at least on twitter) are European, they stream the episodes later.

[XtremeOne1]

There is nothing anti-woman about disliking a female character and/or actress. Laurel is a completely unnecessary character who doesn't fit with the rest of the show and Katie Cassidy has zero chemistry with anyone else on the cast and can't act her way out of a paper bag. Nothing to do with her gender.

I do think it is pretty telling that KC/Laurel couldn't get a twitter trend tonight. People just aren't interested and nothing they do is going to change that.

It is anti-female to pit two women against each other for no other reason then being two women on the same show. It is anti-woman to treat one woman differently then the male characters(like challenging Oliver or having a new love interest)

if tonight showed anything it's that the women do get treated differently by fans.

[BkWurm1]

To me it reinforces how blah and pointless this episode was that the biggest topic of conversation is a light switch, and the flipping of said light switch.

 

Yeah, I think that other big light switch that was flipped at the end of this episode was already talked out by the time we saw it.  It's like BC shows up and instead of fanfare there was a collective sigh.

[TanyaKay]

 

The rest of Ally's caps are here

Edited January 22, 2015 by TanyaKay

[wonderwall]

It is anti-female to pit two women against each other for no other reason then being two women on the same show. It is anti-woman to treat one woman differently then the male characters(like challenging Oliver or having a new love interest)

if tonight showed anything it's that the women do get treated differently by fans.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I do believe that people judge women, on this show in particular, extremely harshly. Felicity cries about Sara's death, Oliver's death, Cooper being evil as hell and now she's S2 Laurel. Laurel makes a mistake because of Sara's death (in episode 5) and everyone hounds her... 

 

It's just not fair at all to these women. 

 

I try to be fair in my criticisms and I try to back up my arguments with evidence. I like to think that when it comes to Laurel I try to be as objective as possible. I just don't feel like she's a character that's been well written. But that has nothing to do with her being a woman and I would never pit her against Felicity because both women are completely different. And if anyone feels that I've done otherwise I actually sincerely apologize because that's not my intent. I like to analyze shows I'm interested in. And sometimes that leads to me being nitpicky so yeah :p 

 

Anyways, the reaction to Felicity flipping a light (which shouldn't be a big deal) is just ridiculous and shouldn't paint Felicity in a negative light. It's just a lame reason to not like her character or to hate on her. Considering the circumstances, I'd think people would be more sympathetic. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[looptab]

I thought the turning the light off was, aside from a symbolic thing, the  equivalent of slamming the door behind her after leaving the discussion. Now, since the door to the foundry is upstairs, and it clicks( ridiculously 3 seconds before someone materializes in- do they fly silently down the stairs?), not slams, they had her make a point this way. I honestly tought of this:

Edited January 22, 2015 by looptab

[pivot]

It is anti-female to pit two women against each other for no other reason then being two women on the same show. It is anti-woman to treat one woman differently then the male characters(like challenging Oliver or having a new love interest)

if tonight showed anything it's that the women do get treated differently by fans.

Not everyone is pitting Laurel vs. Felicity. It's perfectly reasonable to loathe the character of Laurel and think KC can't act and have it have nothing to do with Felicity. My opinions on the two characters and actresses are independent of one another and all the other characters/actors on the show. Laurel and KC suck IMO and that isn't going to change unless they re-cast the role with an actor who can act and emote.

[Trini]

Wow, the easy accessibility of the Arrow Lair/Cave is an actual running joke now. (Seriously? Having Merlyn stroll in twice in one episode?) I hope this means they (the producers) are going to fix that soon.

[Happy Harpy]

I didn't watch the episode so of course, my perspective is purely "on the paper" (it seemed better than the worst-case scenarios of the spoiler thread, I'm glad for you guys who watched :).

OK, you see, I understand on the paper the mechanism behind Felicity and Diggle's reactions. Yes, Felicity went through a lot in little time, and it's normal that she's at the end of her rope. She wouldn't be human if she didn't feel devastated. And nothing more normal than her being afraid for Roy and Diggle and wanting to keep them safe, in her way. (But I call BS if it's supposed to be the expression of her love for Oliver: "my life, my choice" Felicity Smoak and their fellow crimefighters relationship deserve imo better than such a cliché. Felicity asking Oliver to kill Ra's? That was more it for me. YMMV)

And yes, Diggle lost another brother so I could see why he'd be too stunned to think, too. It isn't as non-sensical or out of the blue as other characters' motivations.

Oliver's death could be, for both of them, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

My problem is that, imo, there were more arguments in favor of another reaction.

When Felicity lost Cooper, she didn't give up, she went forward, reinventing herself and wiser for learning from her mistakes. At the end of S2, she was physically hurt, in a city under siege with death at the end of the road, with the "unsafe", and Oliver had lost all hope, how much despaired do you get? And yet, she still didn't give up. When Oliver didn't know what to do in S1, she was the one who suggested another way, she did it again in the season finale; she does, even when she doesn't know what the way is. She also was the one who hounded Oliver about the employees of QC and the people of Starling City who needed him, she seems to be the one who regularly brings up Sara, in a word she's the one who thinks of the people. That's why it would be more in character imo to see her looking for another way, for something to do for people even if she can't help them the way Oliver did.

I could say the same for Diggle (pushing for Oliver to fight Slade after Moira's death, etc.) but with him, my uneasiness lies even more elsewhere. Considering the "leaving no one behind" mentality that he has from his army days, plus the fact that he relentlessly looked for his brother Andy's killer, I find it weird that -as was said upthread- he doesn't focus on Oliver, and first and foremost on retrieving his body. He should know that it's the thing to do, imo it should be a reflex for him, time to "regroup" psychologically.

 

So I'm thinking, if I take off one variable the writers took in, i.e their need to make Laurel the Black Canary now and insert her in the team, would they have chosen the same reaction from Felicity and Diggle? Or would they have gone for something more in line -imo- with what the characters have showed so far, i.e being devastated but refusing to believe that Oliver is dead unless they saw his body, and therefore going to look for him, while having no qualms about finding their own way to carry the torch?

I personally don't think it would make for exciting TV to see D/F give up and/or feel lost if no one was there to "step up" in their stead. So...for me, that's where the ropes show, just like they did when Sara was killed. Oliver and Team Arrow weren't the true point of this episode, they were the settup here whereas imo, they are the center and the root of the show's dynamic. Maybe the impression of a disjointed episode that several people here mentioned, could also come from this?

 

On another note, really, I'm of two minds about Oliver showing up alive in this episode. It makes it even more of a mid-season cliffhanger stunt, but OTOH it doesn't drag things out.  Nevertheless 1) it also shows the ropes more, re: Oliver's "death" is a device in order to prop other "heroes" and 2) I don't think that having the audience knowing about Slade while the characters didn't worked so well in the narrative of S2-B.

 

Edit: I was going to post this in the Quiver, but since the Laurel/Felicity thing is still discussed on this page:

I'm perfectly able to like several female characters on a same show, even when their fanbases tout them as romantic rivals (example: Carol and Beth on TWD). I'm also perfectly able to like very different kind of  female characters, including unpopular ones (Lori on H5-0, 13 on House, Reyes on the X-files, Carrie on SATC, Dawson on Chicago Fire etc.). If I can't stand Laurel, it isn't because of some kind of prejudice: it's solely because of Laurel. Thank you :)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Password]

Felicity and Diggle took craps all over my feelings this episode.

I really liked this episode actually. What's funny is it's Laurel "kicking ass" that makes me want to watch the next episodes. I CACKLED when she was beating up those bad guys. Such second hand embarrassment I've never felt.

I'm going to go ahead and say, the final scene Felicity had with Ray Ray convinced me they're not going romantic with them. It was like Ray finally understood after she said she and Oliver were more, that this isn't a place he should think of going.

I feel so bad for Felicity. The past few months have been hell for her, now she has Oliver's dead ass to contend with. She was in so much denial I wanted to cry for her. Omg why didn't she bitch slap Merlyn. Just "you killed him" SLAP. Merlyn is just awful. Absolutely evil that man, jeez. I am trying to think how Oliver returning will anger Felicity (if it does). I think it'd be more because of teaming up with Merlyn because THIS emotional Felicity, would cry and hug Oliver. Hmm Oliver will probably do something dumb dumb.

I like Brick. He's a cool donut. Can't wait to see what this guy wants to do in the Glades, thousands of miles away from England, where he's from. Just what? The Glades of all places? Sigh.

I didn't miss Oliver because I was interested in what team Arrow do, but I firmly adore Hong Kong Oliver. He still has an element of innocence to him that I like. I am STOKED that Tatsu is alive *happy dance* I find Maseo very attractive (don't judge me) and I like that they showed Oliver is already alive. Although how he's alive is beyong me because he fell 10 miles from that cliff...but anyway.

Aaah Thea wants Arrow to help her. Criiiiiies for days. That is so sad, poor Thea. Dammit she needs to know!

[wonderwall]

What I'm finding hilarious and a bit weird is that all the reviews/recaps I've read about this episode praised EBR and her performance as well as Felicity and didn't really think she was out of line or anything and that Felicity has really come into her own this past season. Then there are comments which consists of a lot of Felicity bashing :p IDK it's weird. I suppose this means that the more casual viewers are being more harsh on Felicity because they just don't understand the heartbreak she's going through? 

 

I find it baffling how Felicity fumbles a bit does one rude thing and then now there's a barrage of people who're against her claiming she's no good at being anything other than the comic relief (which wouldn't have been appropriate for this episode anyways). Sometimes I try hard to understand people, but I just can't with this. 

[Richness]

After most of the mopey crap that's aired this season, I *really* enjoyed this episode. It had some awesomely choreographed fight scenes, some beautifully shot cinematography (especially when it comes to Roy), and some touching emotional scenes. It was also nice to see and hear more from everyone other than Oliver, though that may have just been due to him being (mostly) dead. The only person who really got arrow shafted out of screen time was Quinton, though he did have that out of place car chase and shootout.

 

I don't believe Malcom is the least bit genuine in his regret in getting Oliver killed. Not even my love for the Barrowman can make me believe Malcom values anyone but himself. Unfortunately, I can't tell yet if Barrowman's acting was that good, or that bad.

 

Speaking of bad acting, I didn't think Katie Cassidy was that bad tonight, though she was given crappy lines to deliver. While they definitely rushed Laurel's introduction as Canary, it really isn't that big a deal yet. Beating a couple of two bit henchmen with a stick isn't really that impressive since she caught them off guard in a dark parking lot near the villain HQ, where they presumably felt safe and secure. There's still time for them to show just how inexperienced and unprepared for vigilantism she is by allowing her to get in trouble yet again. (Or maybe not if the previews are to be believed.) However, I will never, ever forgive this show for killing Sara and shoving Laurel on us. I'm not too upset about her costume either, since I suspect you could pick that up easily enough from just about any of the plethora of "adult" clothing/toy stores that populate a big, dark, gritty, seedy place like Starling City.

 

I don't know how they're going to explain Oliver's resurrection. But with the return of Tatsu, I suppose it's going to involve some more magical herbs and ancient Chinese secret. Calgon take me away! I think magic resurrection herbs are probably far more likely than Lazarus Pits, but who knows. They'll fit in quite nicely with the magic hypno herbs and magic healing herbs. Hey, that's what Oliver should do when he relaunches Queen Consolidated, or whatever it's going to be named in the Flash's future: revolutionize modern medicine with all these magic herbs. He'll be back to his filthy, stinking rich self in no time with the world's best pharmaceutical company.

 

I'm also trying to figure out if Brick is strung out on Mirakaru juice, or just *really* good at dodging bullets. Maybe he's just analyzing the shots and avoiding them more or less when he sets the situation up. After all, he was tagged easily by Roy with an arrow when surprised. Therefore, I don't think it's anything too meta-human yet.

 

Some other tidbits: Diggle had the only funny stuff tonight. But even if he doesn't wear a tight fitting leather hoodie, he needs to wear some type of mask to disguise his face. He was also awesome when he pulled a second gun on Malcom after the latter made a threatening remark. As creepy as Ray is, I'm glad he called out Felicity for speaking for his wife. Of course, I can totally understand why she let her emotions get the better of her. So much so, it didn't even register to me that she turned out the lights on the others. Whatever.

 

However, the computer geek in me is cringing at the haphazard way they're handling such advanced piece of technology as the nanochip: no gloves, no antistatic safeguards, carrying it around in a pocket, etc. At this point, the Arrow cave is practically a guided tour of guests popping up. That Thea doesn't know it's down there is also ridiculous, as is that she doesn't know her brother is the Arrow. As someone earlier said, maybe it's the magic hypno herbs at work. Dude, where can I get some of them?

[Danny Franks]

I've not even watched the episode, and nor will I, but anyone going through strong emotional turmoil is likely to do things that seem silly in hindsight, but feel appropriate in the moment. Big gestures that end up looking melodramatic and over the top, but in that moment, they make you feel just a tiny bit better.

 

If Felicity turned off the lights as she was leaving, that seems to be the perfect example of such a daft gesture feeling like you're making a valid point, both to yourself and to the two guys you're leaving in the dark. Saying she's mean for turning the lights out on them is hilarious. What, is Roy deathly afraid of the dark or something?

[kismet]

Not sure if this is best in this thread or the felicity thread...

 

But just wanted to give a shout out to EBR & the costume dept, not sure who is responsible for the choices. But I thought it was a special and beautiful gesture that all if not the majority of the jewelry she wore this episode had triangle & arrow like adornments on them. She had the powerful red one on when she gave Merlyn his deserved verbal smack down! And then when she was reminiscing with ray, she had the gorgeous one on that was green, perhaps Jade.

 

Its the little details like that, that make this show so special!!

I still cant get over the hands connecting thru space/time. Kudos to the production dept. That was another beautiful little moment.

[patchwork]

Turning off the lights while people are still in the room is rude but I just lol-ed at the show trying to be all dramatic about Felicity's exit. Until I realised that upset Felicity going to work meant another Felicity/Ray scene. Can they please just stop with Felicity being in near tears at the office so Ray can swoop in to comfort her or whatever that set-up has been done to death. Think up a new way for them to connect.

 

Even if it was with Laurel I'm glad Diggle had a chance to show his own grief over Oliver's death.

 

Speaking of Laurel lame BC introduction aside (she's been planning her vigilante costume for months it's been sitting in her car just waiting for the moment she can truly embrace her Sara destiny) she was alright in this episode.  

[Chiny11]

I didn't watch the episode so of course, my perspective is purely "on the paper" (it seemed better than the worst-case scenarios of the spoiler thread, I'm glad for you guys who watched :).

OK, you see, I understand on the paper the mechanism behind Felicity and Diggle's reactions. Yes, Felicity went through a lot in little time, and it's normal that she's at the end of her rope. She wouldn't be human if she didn't feel devastated. And nothing more normal than her being afraid for Roy and Diggle and wanting to keep them safe, in her way. (But I call BS if it's supposed to be the expression of her love for Oliver: "my life, my choice" Felicity Smoak and their fellow crimefighters relationship deserve imo better than such a cliché. Felicity asking Oliver to kill Ra's? That was more it for me. YMMV)

And yes, Diggle lost another brother so I could see why he'd be too stunned to think, too. It isn't as non-sensical or out of the blue as other characters' motivations.

Oliver's death could be, for both of them, the straw that broke the camel's back.

My problem is that, imo, there were more arguments in favor of another reaction.

When Felicity lost Cooper, she didn't give up, she went forward, reinventing herself and wiser for learning from her mistakes. At the end of S2, she was physically hurt, in a city under siege with death at the end of the road, with the "unsafe", and Oliver had lost all hope, how much despaired do you get? And yet, she still didn't give up. When Oliver didn't know what to do in S1, she was the one who suggested another way, she did it again in the season finale; she does, even when she doesn't know what the way is. She also was the one who hounded Oliver about the employees of QC and the people of Starling City who needed him, she seems to be the one who regularly brings up Sara, in a word she's the one who thinks of the people. That's why it would be more in character imo to see her looking for another way, for something to do for people even if she can't help them the way Oliver did.

I could say the same for Diggle (pushing for Oliver to fight Slade after Moira's death, etc.) but with him, my uneasiness lies even more elsewhere. Considering the "leaving no one behind" mentality that he has from his army days, plus the fact that he relentlessly looked for his brother Andy's killer, I find it weird that -as was said upthread- he doesn't focus on Oliver, and first and foremost on retrieving his body. He should know that it's the thing to do, imo it should be a reflex for him, time to "regroup" psychologically.

So I'm thinking, if I take off one variable the writers took in, i.e their need to make Laurel the Black Canary now and insert her in the team, would they have chosen the same reaction from Felicity and Diggle? Or would they have gone for something more in line -imo- with what the characters have showed so far, i.e being devastated but refusing to believe that Oliver is dead unless they saw his body, and therefore going to look for him, while having no qualms about finding their own way to carry the torch?

I personally don't think it would make for exciting TV to see D/F give up and/or feel lost if no one was there to "step up" in their stead. So...for me, that's where the ropes show, just like they did when Sara was killed. Oliver and Team Arrow weren't the true point of this episode, they were the settup here whereas imo, they are the center and the root of the show's dynamic. Maybe the impression of a disjointed episode that several people here mentioned, could also come from this?

On another note, really, I'm of two minds about Oliver showing up alive in this episode. It makes it even more of a mid-season cliffhanger stunt, but OTOH it doesn't drag things out. Nevertheless 1) it also shows the ropes more, re: Oliver's "death" is a device in order to prop other "heroes" and 2) I don't think that having the audience knowing about Slade while the characters didn't worked so well in the narrative of S2-B.

Edit: I was going to post this in the Quiver, but since the Laurel/Felicity thing is still discussed on this page:

I'm perfectly able to like several female characters on a same show, even when their fanbases tout them as romantic rivals (example: Carol and Beth on TWD). I'm also perfectly able to like very different kind of female characters, including unpopular ones (Lori on H5-0, 13 on House, Reyes on the X-files, Carrie on SATC, Dawson on Chicago Fire etc.). If I can't stand Laurel, it isn't because of some kind of prejudice: it's solely because of Laurel. Thank you :)

Thanks for this. I didn't watch the episode either... and after reading all these comments. I am definitely NOT watching it.

If you have a Tumblr account, you should post this there too.

[SleepDeprived]

Not thrilled at that episode. Not disappointed either. I think I'm with those who were just whelmed about it. Happy to see Maseo and Tatsu being the ones to save Oliver, though!

 

It is always such a pleasure to read the thoughts of everyone after each episode (not to be taken as sarcasm, in any way). I love the discussions here. I was cackling at all the back-and-forth on Felicity turning off the lights in the foundry. Of all the things to focus on, I never would've guessed that that would be it. I mean, I get it, it's rude to just turn off the lights while people are still in the room but given the context of the situation, I didn't think it was that big of a deal that it would cause people to turn on a grief-stricken Felicity. I, similarly, didn't get it back in S1 when Laurel was razed over turning off the television. It's a light switch, Diggle or Roy can flip it back on when Felicity left? It's a television, Laurel's co-workers could've turned it back on when she left? They both had legitimate emotional reasons to do what they did, no matter how imprudent it might've been.

 

Anyway, what was Laurel going to do with Fisher in the end, though? Seeing as she's "the justice you can't run from", was she going to kill him to make a statement that evil-doers better beware? Beat him up some more with Sara's bo-staff but leave him alive as a warning to Brick? Take him back to the cops? Which wouldn't really do any good since the cops don't have any evidence to present to the DA's office because Brick still has it. So, what was the point of her jumping out of the shadows like that? Did she even have a plan other than "borrow" Sara's gear to go yay-vigilante-ing and make puns?

 

I actually liked Laurel for most of the episode. I liked both her scenes with Diggle and Felicity. Those were nice and seemed genuine. I was very amused, though, that Laurel was the only one who made sense and affirmed that Malcolm is a lying liar who lies and who should never be trusted. Speaking of Malcolm, did he really refer to Team Arrow as his "associates" that he would consult regarding the whereabouts of Oliver when Thea expressed her concern? The nerve of that man is astounding.

 

I think Vinnie Jones is scarier when he's just silently hulking about or staring intensely like a madman, like his turn as Moran on Elementary. Of course, he was pretty intimidating in fight scenes and I was slightly scared for Diggle's pretty face but whenever Brick was monologuing, I really couldn't take him seriously.

 

Roy parkouring off a person was a funny WTF moment. Less funny WTF moment is Brick getting affected by arrows but not bullets.

 

Can people stop lying to Thea and Quentin now?

 

MVPs of the episode (and my heart) are EBR and DR in every scene that they were in. So much love for Diggle and Felicity. Although, I wish their big, emotional moments were with each other and not Palmer or Laurel.

[lizonthefritz]

My problem is that, imo, there were more arguments in favor of another reaction.

When Felicity lost Cooper, she didn't give up, she went forward, reinventing herself and wiser for learning from her mistakes. At the end of S2, she was physically hurt, in a city under siege with death at the end of the road, with the "unsafe", and Oliver had lost all hope, how much despaired do you get? And yet, she still didn't give up. When Oliver didn't know what to do in S1, she was the one who suggested another way, she did it again in the season finale; she does, even when she doesn't know what the way is. She also was the one who hounded Oliver about the employees of QC and the people of Starling City who needed him, she seems to be the one who regularly brings up Sara, in a word she's the one who thinks of the people. That's why it would be more in character imo to see her looking for another way, for something to do for people even if she can't help them the way Oliver did.

 

 

I completely disagree that when Felicity lost Cooper she didn't give up. She absolutely gave up! She was a goth activist hacker and when he died she turned her back on that movement entirely. What's that if not giving up? On that particular cause.

 

Or, to put it another way: this is the Exact. Same. Thing. as when Cooper died.

 

Someone she loves dies, and because Felicity is unwilling to lose more people she loves, she takes the first step of moving forward / reinventing herself: she turns her back on what she has dedicated her life to for the past few years.

 

And if Oliver had stayed dead, there is no doubt in my mind that when the next opportunity presented itself to help people (without anyone dying), Felicity would have jumped at the chance. Maybe as a volunteer at a women's shelter or by helping Habitat for Humanity, who knows?

 

 

Seriously, give the girl a few days to get over losing the man she loves before deciding what to do next. After Cooper it took her several years to find a new way of helping people. Sheesh.

Edited January 22, 2015 by lizonthefritz

[Ariah]

I wonder if the scenes with Oliver waking up in the present were planned from the start or were they added later because of the outcry... Guess I'll never know.

 

I'm surprised: I liked Laurel this episode, I really did. More of that version of Laurel, please. See, show? It wasn't that hard. Now, couldn't you have done that earlier?

 

I understand Felicity all the way - she's at the stage where she won't lose anyone else, full-stop.

What I didn't understand was how come they still believe Malcolm. Come on, Team Arrow! Push the guy, learn about the secret dueling ground, go there and search for the body! You give up so easy, TA. So easy.

 

Liked the Hong-Kong flashback (the window that just wouldn't break...) but i guess I'll take whatever Oliver I can right now.

[Velocity23]

 

 

And those wannabe vigilantes really want to bring Merlyn on Team Arrow.

[jay741982]

 

 

And those wannabe vigilantes really want to bring Merlyn on Team Arrow.

I loved Felicity in those scenes with Malcolm. I wanted her to slap the Hell out of him at least

[quarks]

So I'm thinking, if I take off one variable the writers took in, i.e their need to make Laurel the Black Canary now and insert her in the team, would they have chosen the same reaction from Felicity and Diggle? Or would they have gone for something more in line -imo- with what the characters have showed so far, i.e being devastated but refusing to believe that Oliver is dead unless they saw his body, and therefore going to look for him, while having no qualms about finding their own way to carry the torch?

 

 

....yeah.

 

As I said, EBR sold the grief. Diggle sold the grief. I honestly had no problems with Felicity making the decision to save Diggle and Roy, especially under those circumstances.

 

But I think what it came down to for me was this: Oliver's missing for four days, with the League of Assassins, and although Felicity is doing some stuff with satellites to track him, the team is otherwise focusing on what at this point seem to be street thugs and not as much Oliver, and then, believing Malcolm, the same guy who orchestrated all of this. All they have is a sword and some blood and the knowledge that Oliver has taken off before this. This is the same group that kept fighting against an earthquake machine and against Mirakuru soldiers.

 

Having said that, now that I've slept on it, I've remembered that Felicity and Diggle have expressed doubts before - and given that Oliver, Diggle and Roy have at one time or another all left the team, it was about time that Felicity did, and thinking that Oliver was dead would do it.  So I'm good now. 

 

Regarding pitting Laurel versus Felicity because women - I'm on record as not liking Laurel. But I don't think it's as simple as choosing romantic sides, especially since my favorite character isn't Felicity, but Moira, and my hands down least favorite, going well past any frustrations I've had with Laurel, is Amanda Waller, who is not Felicity's romantic rival in any way; even assuming Amanda and Oliver hook up, which looks increasingly unlikely, that's a flashback hookup. I like the other women in the show; I'd be thrilled to see more of Thea and Lyla and Tatsu, especially if Tatsu pulls out some swords and forces more characters to do laundry. For a character who's barely been on screen, she's had some great bits, so fingers crossed that the show will do more with her.

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

 

And those wannabe vigilantes really want to bring Merlyn on Team Arrow.

 

I could watch this scene over and over again. Emily really sold the grief and the fury, I think.

Edited January 22, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[tv echo]

Interesting MG tweets about this episode (he also posted some behind-the-scenes tweets that I've put in the Slings and Arrows thread)...

Marc Guggenheim @mguggenheim  ·  9h 9 hours ago
"Why'd she turn the lights out on us?" #deleteddialogue

Marc Guggenheim @mguggenheim  ·  10h 10 hours ago
Notice how Ray said "start small"?  #atom

Marc Guggenheim @mguggenheim  ·  10h 10 hours ago
Tonight's episode of #Arrow doesn't have a "My name is Oliver Queen..." saga sell opening because we couldn't fit it into the episode.

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim

Edited January 22, 2015 by tv echo

[Primetimer]

With Oliver dead, everybody in town has to take up the slack. Some people put on familiar wigs, some people construct high-tech armor, and SOME people forget about putting on any sort of mask at all. Come on, Diggle. Get it together.

Read the story

[dtissagirl]

Having said that, now that I've slept on it, I've remembered that Felicity and Diggle have expressed doubts before - and given that Oliver, Diggle and Roy have at one time or another all left the team, it was about time that Felicity did, and thinking that Oliver was dead would do it.  So I'm good now.

I think this time around, the obvious writing for plot worked for them -- or at least it worked better than in previous episodes [remember that time Oliver told Nyssa that Thea was Malcolm's daughter because Nyssa needed to kidnap Thea 3 scenes later? YEAH]. This entire episode was written so that every character was in a specific place that allowed the writers to get Laurel suited up as a last resort. That's the big plot point they needed to reach, and for that to happen, yeah, everyone on Team Arrow needed to not be fighting Brick, so that Laurel felt like she was the only option.

 

I bought most of it. Felicity deciding she's done, Diggle having massive doubts, even Felicity choosing to save Roy and Dig while making things worse -- it all makes sense in the light of them thinking Oliver's dead. I get their motivations when facing the hard truth that Oliver is dead.

 

What I didn't really buy was Felicity and Diggle accepting Oliver's dead solely on Malcolm's word and a bloody sword. Malcolm said there was no way to access the ravine, something he was dead wrong about, since we saw Maseo skipping down the ravine. And Felicity and Diggle know this cheerful dude named Barry who can probably access any place on the planet if he wants to, so. I'm gonna have to try and fanwank why the hell didn't Felicity get Malcolm to tell her the exact coordinates of the ravine, so she could hack and point a satellite, or send a drone with a camera right there, while she was on the phone with Caitlin and Cisco, and Barry was already on his way. But none of that happened because the plot dictated that Felicity and Diggle had to believe Malcolm. Uh-huh.

 

 

The other thing I've been thinking about is the complete lack of a time jump, and I'm guessing they couldn't time jump because 1. Thea is in the dark about everything, and if six weeks had passed with no Oliver, then they'd actually have to write Thea dealing with it for real, and they didn't want to. And 2. this is their get out of jail card with regards to allowing Team Arrow to NOT do anything real about Oliver's death. No funeral, no alerting the authorities, no calling Oliver's lawyers about his will, NO TELLING THEA BECAUSE OF 1., no nothing that normal people usually do when a loved one dies.

[blixie]

 

, I feel sort of...underwhelmed by this episode, and I don't expect that to improve in 311. I don't think they're going to particularly spend any time on any of the characters' grief, or go deep on that in a realistic way, so we're just going to get Felicity "standing strong," and Dig trying to lead, and that's about it. It's just disappointing. If you're going to kill off the main character, you should wring a lot of emotion out of that, and I don't think they're going to bother, so now it's just more obvious than ever that there was only one reason Oliver "died."

 

Yes this, and also to delay Olicity.RME.

 

I had very low expectations of this episode and it met those low expectations, it was exactly as mediocre as so much of 3A was. And it's few big "surprises" Laurel as BC,,and Maseo/Tatsu saving Oliver I already pretty much called or were spoiled before hand. I knew there was NO WAY they'd not show us Oliver alive, they could never expect a casual viewer to watch unless they showed us a concurrent story where we know that in fact he's not dead, or at least resurrected. 

 

I have to admit I'm in the group who doesn't enjoy angsty Felicity, not because I don't want her to have real feelings and struggle, but eh I'm not the EBR fangirl that most people who like Felicity are, I think she's winning and has fantastic chemistry with SA, but I just think she's really kind of terrible at crying. Aand because I think she's terrible she does thing with her voice where it sounds like she's HOLDING it all in, but then the "break" never comes even when it's supposed to come, its like I can feel her trying to make herself cry and she just can NOT do it. The only crying scene of hers that I've thought really worked is when Ray found her, it just started with her mid-tears and so EBR had enough time to get to that place on set, without having to do it on camera. So yeah I DO think EBR is better off with lighter material, I think the whole show is better off when it balances it's darker themes with lighter moments. 

 

Overall I just found so much of Felicity's behavior, like so much of the episodes this season contrived, turning out the lights to be "symbolic"? mmkay, like I know this show isn't realistic, but that felt like something Abed would do on Community, not Felicity Smoak when she's dealing with her grief and fear. I didn't think it was rude, just literally unbelievable and stupid, who is she Joan fucking Crawford? Please.

Laurel was fine actually and I'm glad they gave her the sonic device, I always liked it with Sara, and Struggle Canary is definitely going to need all the  help she can get. I still hope they just give her the canary cry, I mean shit they just brought Oliver back from the DEAD DEAD so whatever with the whole this show being "grounded". Meh.

 

The big surprise to me for this episode was how much I liked Roy, and how good a job acting Colton Haynes did. I liked that he was the one that wanted to face reality about Oliver and tell the truth to Thea, I think that is weirdly true to his poor kid background, he doesn't really have any time for bullshit, when reality is smacking him in the face. Good job Colton!