S01.E02: The Outspoken King

[Neurochick]

Episodes 1 and 2 have already shown Jamal's great flaw; cowardice.  He's afraid to pursue the company because he believes he can't win Lucious over. He was afraid to play in front of anything other than very select audiences because he's afraid the won't appeal to a mass audience.  He talks about coming out publicly, but he backs down as soon as Lucious threatens to disown him.  He's always afraid.  I'm not saying his fears are unfounded, but his Daddy would respect him a whole lot more if he just went for it instead of always backing down.

 

Yes, I do think Jamal is filled with fear, maybe Cookie will force him to stand up to his father.  I too think Lucious would respect Jamal if he told Lucious to go fuck himself.  

Edited January 15, 2015 by Neurochick

[Jazzy24]

Lucious did have a good point about Cookie this episode. He told her she can't go around acting all ghetto and loud she needs to think and act like a business woman. Hopecully Cookie gets smoothed out where she can hold her own in the boardroom letting people know that she's as smart as many in the music industry.

[Rae Spellman]

 

It wouldn't surprise me if they made (Anika) out to be the daughter of black music royalty a la Quincy Jones or Berry Gordy where she was the prize for Lucious making it into the big time and divorcing Cookie was the price he had to pay for it.

 

In the previews, Anika says her father is a doctor and her mother is a debutante.

 

 

So, like, while I totally felt for Jamal being locked in the closet by his father, I also kind of felt like Lucious had a point. Obviously, Jamal is free to do what he wants to do and to come out of the closet whenever he wants, but he's also totally coasting on his father's money. I mean, it's not cool for a father to basically blackmail his son with money, but Jamal set himself up for it. 

 

Indeed. Jamal could have figured out a way to support himself by now. There are plenty of ways to make a living as a musician. Even if the overwhelming majority of them live a much more modest lifestyle than R&B star or son of a mogul. 

 

It's interesting that as intolerant as Lucious is, Lucious still pays the rent when Jamal has "roommates" in that $12K/month apartment.

 

Where is Cookie getting all her clothes from? I know Loo-shus set her up in the apt., but is she still wearing clothes she had before, or did he give her money to get new stuff?

 

 

Since Lucious is paying her cab fare, who knows. Maybe Jamal charged the clothes on Lucious' credit card. Whenever Cookie starts collecting that three million dollar a year salary, she should be able to buy her own clothes. 

[Ohwell]

I didn't think I would like this show because I am not a fan of rap/hip hop at all, but it's the characters who have drawn me in. 

 

The only difficulty I'm having right now is trying to keep myself calm whenever Hakeem is on the screen.  I just want to bust him upside his head so bad.  I do like the fact that he doesn't care if his brother is gay, so there's that, and I know he's young and stupid in many ways, but every time I see a broom now.....

[cali1981]

I took a shot at watching the pilot earlier this week and just sat there enjoying the hell out of it and this week's show sealed the deal for me. The show is an absolute winner with some of the funniest lines and scenes I've heard or seen lately (i.e. the bib and Obama probably telling Luscious to go fuck himself and hanging up).  I love. love Taraji P. Henson.  She chews the scenery with outrageous, deliberate over-acting and dominates anyone she shares a scene with.  She would have been great in "I'm Gonna Git You Sucka"  Keenen Wayans would have had a field day with her in that movie.  Terrence Howard is, as always, excellent as is the entire supporting cast.  The show was a major leap of faith for FOX which appears to be paying off.

[Lila82]

Hakeem and Jamal are a dream team.  Don't mess with them, writers!  Seriously, Ilene Chaiken - they are the best part of your show.  Do not screw this up.

 

The fake Hakeem/Jamal feud also reminds me of Rayna on "Nashville," all, "why is so hard to find good solo artists?" when Gunnar is always singing amazing songs right there in front of her.  I guess it makes for better drama, even if the overall execution is poor.

 

My biggest gripe is that the female characters are so pathetic. Cookie's been in prison for almost two decades -- I can give her shenanigans a pass for now, although the casual racism has to stop -- but Tiana and Anika need makeovers. The former, because Hakeem treats her like dirt and she wants to sleep with him on the dressing room floor? And Anika, because she's a smart, powerful, successful woman and keeps stooping to Cookie's level. Grow some self-respect, ladies. Stop causing me second-hand embarrassment.

 

*small voice* I like Hakeem.  He is entitled and rude and terrible to women, but he makes those sad eyes whenever Cookie's around and seems drawn to older women (Naomi Campbell!!!) and clearly has deep mommy issues which is even more sad when his mom is awesome and just expresses this inner turmoil really well even though he's such a turd on the outside and is just all around adorable and charismatic and I just want to hug him...I mean, he'd be into it.  I have at least a decade on him!

 

I'm still struggling to get past the blow job bib.  

 

ETA:

Sassy Assistant Portia has got to be a "30 Rock," shout-out, right?  They are the same exact character, with the best snark and no time for everyone else's shenanigans.  

Edited January 15, 2015 by Lila82

[TwistedandBored]

I loved this episode more than the pilot. TPH continues to be awesome. Can't wait for next episode. 

[40Love]

The only difficulty I'm having right now is trying to keep myself calm whenever Hakeem is on the screen.  I just want to bust him upside his head so bad.  I do like the fact that he doesn't care if his brother is gay, so there's that, and I know he's young and stupid in many ways, but every time I see a broom now

 

Hakeem is the Hip-Hop version of Justin Bieber. He has mostly lived a privileged life; has no clue what it was really like for his parents... and is in no way the hardened "gangsta" he so desperately wants to be.  So, he acts out for youtube in an attempt to build up a "Badboy" reputation. He wouldn't last a day on the real streets. I feel a little sorry for him (just a little)... because I think he's just a scared little boy on the inside. 

[Ohwell]

I agree that Hakeem is just a scared little boy on the inside, but I'm still eyeing that broom....

[After7Only]

While I love the acitng on this show, I must say that Lee Daniels is knocking it out the park, directing the episodes.   I'd guess a lot of the acting choices from Taraji and Terrance are at his direction. The quieter scenes, like when Cookie first walked into Lucious home, a lot about the characters that words could not convey.   He definitely has a knack from inserting everyday realness into his projects. 

[aprilbabe]

Ok, Empire may be my new favorite show.

And I agree with people who have already posted  Lucious still has feelings for Cookie, which makes me wonder why he completely abondoned her. Im not suprised he divorced her though its not like she was sentenced for 1 or even 5 years she was sentenced for 30. Thats pretty much the end of your relationship right there. But why he stopped contact with her is odd and cold,  He could've sent her a Christmas card, or pictures of the kids once or twice a year. But Cookie definately has a hold on him, he pretty does whatever she says and lets her do whatever she wants, she says the artist should be fired, he fires him, she shows up at the house unannouced makes Lucious pay the taxi driver, says she hungry and Lucious feeds her. I get why Boo Boo Kitty feels threatened.

 

But I also think Cookie still has feelings for Lucious and I feel bad for her. I guessing their characters are close the actors ages which is mid-fourties, Based on that and their kids age and the fact that Bunkie is her cousin and Bunkie has known Lucious since they were 14. Cookie and Lucious have probably been together since they were kids. He may have been the only man she'd been with. And while he has moved on, for her time has stood still, she probably has some unresolved feelings.

[Timetoread]

It's interesting that as intolerant as Lucious is, Lucious still pays the rent when Jamal has "roommates" in that $12K/month apartment.

 

Lucius - murderer though he is - seems to me a softy.  He comes across as all hardened but ALL his boys are pampered and spoiled.  He loves Jamal - evidenced not only by the cushy lifestyle and I'm sure all the music lessons and baby grand pianos one could play, but also that he DID bring Jamal to see his mother over the years and was very gentle with him at the time.  But I think he draws his line at allowing Jamal to REPRESENT him as the face of that empire he made because he is so rejecting of the gay lifestyle.  That said, he's going to have to take a major journey of acceptance to make peace with his son before he dies.  And he WILL take it, I have no doubt.

 

As for Hakeem, I don't LIKE him but I feel so sad for him.  He has really been lost without his mother there to raise him.  I can't wait to watch Cookie reel him in and give him for real what it looks like he sort of seeks in his sex life.  She also introduced him to boundaries, LOL, and he's still scared of her.  It will do him WONDERS to learn respect.

 

Something else I noted is that even though Vernon and Cookie don't seem to like each other very much, Vernon defended her not once but THREE times last night.  TWICE from the rapper and once to Hakeem.  I think slowly but surely we are going to see 20 years melt away and this family will restructure itself.  Again, Anika, girl I'm telling you, get out.  You cannot, and should not, try to get in between this.  See here's the thing, ladies - you don't have to chase a man.  If he wants/needs/loves you he'll seek you out and put you first on instinct.  He'll defend and provide on instinct.  Cookie hasn't worked a single day since leaving prison - it is LUCIUS, either directly or indirectly through Jamal that is providing for Cookie.  Hell he even paid for the cab without so much as a word.  And that Lucius hasn't checked Cookie even once for her ad lib attacks on Anika shows me that Anika is not really his priority.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Timetoread

[Rick Kitchen]

There's a clip on fox.com of Ta'Rhonda Jones, who plays Porscha, talking about how she got the job.  She's apparently a rapper, and she originally tried out for the Tiana role, but they saw something in her that got her the other role.

 

http://www.fox.com/watch/384487491797/7684647168

[fivestone]

Hakeem is the Hip-Hop version of Justin Bieber. He has mostly lived a privileged life; has no clue what it was really like for his parents... and is in no way the hardened "gangsta" he so desperately wants to be.  So, he acts out for youtube in an attempt to build up a "Badboy" reputation. He wouldn't last a day on the real streets. I feel a little sorry for him (just a little)... because I think he's just a scared little boy on the inside. 

 

That's not being fair to Justin Bieber. Bieber didn't grow up as a rich little kid - his mom raised him as a single parent in low-income housing. All the success he has now? He did that on his own. He hustled. He started off on YouTube and grabbed the opportunities that came from that when he was only 13. I'm not saying the kid is a saint, but he worked hard and, if anything, his mom has a better lifestyle because of HIM. If he wants to be a badboy for now? Fine, whatever. He's 20. Hopefully he'll pull it together in a few years. Hakeem never had to work a day in his life, everything has always been handed to him on a platter.

[BestestAuntEver]

I must be in the minority but I hope Lucious and Cookie stay done.

This man probably let her take his fall for the drugs he abandoned her in prison, spent half the episode disregarding her and letting that punk ass rapper do the same he's a punk and I don't need Cookie getting back together with someone who treated her like that.

I don't necessarily need them back together. I just want them to have hot angry sex. Then Cookie says, "thank you and you can pick up a gift basket on the way out".

For all Cookies non political correctness, she didn't even flinch or shy away when Jamal and Micheal were in bed. Hell, she ended up getting in bed with them. Her actions not her words show how she loves and accepts him for who he is.

Edited January 16, 2015 by BestestAuntEver

[SimoneS]

Indeed. Jamal could have figured out a way to support himself by now. There are plenty of ways to make a living as a musician. Even if the overwhelming majority of them live a much more modest lifestyle than R&B star or son of a mogul.

It's interesting that as intolerant as Lucious is, Lucious still pays the rent when Jamal has "roommates" in that $12K/month apartment.

But Jamal, Dre, and Hakeem all living off their father's wealth feels much more real to me. In real life, rich kids don't support themselves or if they work, they do it for fun. One way or the other they use their parents' wealth and connections to live cushy lifestyles.

Lucious not cutting off Jamal because he disapproves of his sexuality is interesting. Lots of parents wealthy or not disown their children when they come out. Yet Lucious continues to lavishly support his son. I would love for the show to explore that eventually. I would not be surprised that it is combination of loving his son and being afraid of breaking his bond with Cookie.

Edited January 16, 2015 by SimoneS

[ribboninthesky1]

I fail to understand why Jamal didn't just tell Cookie that he was blackmailed.  She probably would have confronted Lucious, but I think she would have understood where Jamal was coming from.  I don't think Jamal is a coward, necessarily.  He doesn't seem to get much familial support outside of Cookie, and that's gone on for most of his life.  Between being emotionally rejected and undermined by his father while being financially supported by him, and very well understanding the homophobia in the music world, not to mention hip-hop, I get why it's not easy for him to put himself out there.  I thought Cookie was a bit pushy about outing him.  That should be his decision, and his alone.  

 

I'm not sure what to think of the Jamal and Hakeem relationship.  On the surface, they seem close, but I feel like it's more one-sided on the emotional support.  As in, Jamal is always stepping up for and encouraging Hakeem.  Maybe later episodes will show reciprocation on Hakeem's part.  I can't give Hakeem extra credit for not being homophobic.  That's basic human decency, of which he seems lacking in pretty much every other area. 

 

I'm so glad that news lady clarified that Hakeem is an adult, not a kid.  It seemed to me that Hakeem was deliberately stirring controversy to sell tickets, but I was suspicious that he seemingly opted to do this after Jamal told him about the coming out in public PR stunt.  I'm not convinced they aren't one-upping each other, especially on Hakeem's part.  His expression at the end of the pilot read to me like he wasn't happy that Jamal would get some of his own shine.        

 

I thought the episode was a step down from the pilot, but I'll keep watching.    

[Syndicate]

This episode was a bit of a downgrade from the pilot in my opinion.  I thought the pilot carried a certain essence that seemed to be missing in the second episode.  I didn't feel a sense of urgency in the storyline of Bunkie's murder either.  Andre was something of a shocking surprise to me in this episode as well.  We knew something was going on with him because of the pill popping.  But his character went from an educated, semi-sophisticated, semi-elegant, poised, uppity, and stuck-up older brother to a simpering, boozing, erratic wimp who's led around by the balls (LITERALLY) by his controlling wife.  I'm convinced more than ever that she wants the company for herself because Andre is clearly in no condition to run a lemonade stand, let alone a million dollar hip hop music and entertainment conglomerate.

 

 

ETA:  What does talking in the "third person" mean?  Rhonda alluded to Andre doing this.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Syndicate

[Scarlett45]

I was thinking "isn't that the pot calling the kettle". Cookie's only a shade or two darker than Annika.

Are Taraji and Terrence wearing make-up to make them look older? There characters look older than the real life actors' ages.

Both Terrence and Taraji are in their mid 40s. These characters look a "rough" mid 40s which makes sense- Cookie has been locked up for 17yrs with the stress of that situation plus without ANY access to cosmetics/beauty products. Lucious was living a rough life before he made it big. So they are probably slacking off on the concealer etc to make them look tired and worn.

SimoneS- I believe Lucious loves Jamal, the LAVISH support (not just support) shows this. He also lets the boyfriend live under a roof he pays for, IMO he doesn't want to cut Jamal out of his life or anything he's just prejudice. A part of him may be hoping this is a "phase" he grows out of. Had Jamal come out, I think Lucious would've been angry but I don't think he would've really cut him off- that looks bad publicly and if he did Jamal could just go live with Andre (I hope) or show up on his Dad's door step.

ribboninthesky I think Hakeem loves Jamal just as much, but I think 1. He's the younger, yes he's an "adult" but perhaps only 18-19yrs old. Jamal is what 24-25? That's a big difference in maturity level especially since Jamal seems to be the most emotionally mature among the boys. 2. Being the son that's most like Lucious, Hakeem has been over indulged, where as Jamal being the "different one" has not.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Scarlett45

[GreekGeek]

Andre was something of a shocking surprise to me in this episode as well.  We knew something was going on with him because of the pill popping.  But his character went from an educated, semi-sophisticated, semi-elegant, poised, uppity, and stuck-up older brother to a simpering, boozing, erratic wimp who's led around by the balls (LITERALLY) by his controlling wife.  I'm convinced more than ever that she wants the company for herself because Andre is clearly in no condition to run a lemonade stand, let alone a million dollar hip hop music and entertainment conglomerate.

ETA:  What does talking in the "third person" mean?  Rhonda alluded to Andre doing this?

 

I wasn't thrilled about the change in Andre either. I was hoping we'd be left in suspense a bit longer about his pills. I thought it would be much more dramatically effective to let us see him as competent for several more episodes; it would then be really horrifying to see him come apart at the seams. I hope he can pull himself together for the next episode. He has this much in common with his dad, at least--they're both hiding a serious illness from the world.

 

I don't recall the specific line, but talking in the third person means talking about yourself as if you were someone else--saying "he" instead of "I."

[ribboninthesky1]

I believe Andre referred to himself in the third person a few times while drunk at the table.  A few "I"s mixed in with "Andre"s as if he was talking about someone else, a different person.

 

ribboninthesky I think Hakeem loves Jamal just as much, but I think 1. He's the younger, yes he's an "adult" but perhaps only 18-19yrs old. Jamal is what 24-25? That's a big difference in maturity level especially since Jamal seems to be the most emotionally mature among the boys. 2. Being the son that's most like Lucious, Hakeem has been over indulged, where as Jamal being the "different one" has not.

 

True, Hakeem is younger.  I assumed he was 20 or 21, but there's not much difference compared to 18 or 19, I suppose.  And it's only the 2nd episode, he may be shown encouraging and standing up for Jamal.  I know he gave Jamal his props in the studio during the pilot, but he also allowed his father to ignore it and focus on him.  For my part, I think Jamal is very talented on his own.  Hakeem needs him more, since he's not used to doing things on his own. I'd rather Jamal establish his own career, but we'll see what happens.

[Dusty]

 

I'm so glad that news lady clarified that Hakeem is an adult, not a kid.  It seemed to me that Hakeem was deliberately stirring controversy to sell tickets, but I was suspicious that he seemingly opted to do this after Jamal told him about the coming out in public PR stunt.

 

I literally cheered when the news lady said that.  I thought Hakeem did it because he wants everyone to think that he's something that he's not and never has been.  Which is some badass gangster.  Remember what Cookie said.  "The streets ain't made for everybody.  That's why they made sidewalks."  Well Hakeem is something that needs to be on the sidewalk but thinks he belongs on the streets.  Just because his dad came from the streets doesn't mean Hakeem knows anything about it.  Just stories and people.  As far as I can tell Hakeem only knows the good life.  He was just a baby when they had it rough.  I don't care that he did grow up comfortable.  That's what Cookie and Lucious wanted for them (or what anyone wants for their kids).  It just annoys the crap out of me how fake he is.  Andre might be in business suits now but out of all the kids he would remember the most what it was like growing up without all that money.

 

 

For my part, I think Jamal is very talented on his own.  Hakeem needs him more, since he's not used to doing things on his own. I'd rather Jamal establish his own career, but we'll see what happens.

From what they've shown so far Jamal has all the talent and Hakeem only half of it.  Like a really good singer that can only sing other people's lyrics. 

 

 

I'm convinced more than ever that she wants the company for herself because Andre is clearly in no condition to run a lemonade stand, let alone a million dollar hip hop music and entertainment conglomerate.

If Andre stays on his medication then I don't see why he wouldn't be able to run the business.  I was talking about this with a friend of mine.  Obviously Rhonda is shady, they all are, but I don't think she necessarily wants the company to herself.  She seems to have her own business as a photographer? or something.  I do think that she wants the power that would come with being married to someone in charge of the company.  So far I think she does care for him, but I'm ready to change my mind at a moment's notice.  I went into the first episode thinking that she'd be the one manipulating him into wanting to pit his brothers against each other but it seems to me that he's all in of his own choice.  Probably resentment because he is literally the only one of the kids that actually works for a living.  Yes, nepotism helped him along fantastically, but he's still the one that went to school and does the job.  When he's on his meds he's good at his job (was he even bad at his job when he wasn't on them for two days).  Even Lucious admitted to that in the first episode.  Lucious' problem with him is that he's not musically inclined.  I really hope that they don't have him going on and off his meds over and over again.  That would get tedious quick.

[40Love]

That's not being fair to Justin Bieber. Bieber didn't grow up as a rich little kid - his mom raised him as a single parent in low-income housing. All the success he has now? He did that on his own. He hustled. He started off on YouTube and grabbed the opportunities that came from that when he was only 13. I'm not saying the kid is a saint, but he worked hard and, if anything, his mom has a better lifestyle because of HIM. If he wants to be a badboy for now? Fine, whatever. He's 20. Hopefully he'll pull it together in a few years. Hakeem never had to work a day in his life, everything has always been handed to him on a platter.

I agree with you about Justin's hardwork and talent. My comparison was only about the Bad Boy behavior. Justin has had very similar incidents;

peeing in hallways, dissing President Clinton and acting out in public. IMHO I think Justin's more outrageous antics, tattoos, run-ins with the law are about him wanting to shake his clean cut, pretty boy, teen idol image and look hard... Much like Hakeem wanting to live up to the Hip Hop image when has never really livebroom. I mean come on... his MOM kicked his ass with a broom!

Edited January 16, 2015 by 40Love

[SuburbanHangSuite]

What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall in the Rice household when Cookie dropped her, "Oh, you gonna Ray Rice me?!!"    Ray Rice catching hell; President Obama getting insulted...no one is safe from these writers. 

[jhlipton]

nb360, I'm loving the assistants as well - particularly Becky. I'd love to see them have their own little rivalry.

 

Becky would win that in a heart-beat.  She's actually competent.  I was wondering why Porsha would last more than a minute.  Being the daughter of a cell-mate would explain it.

 

 I really hope that they don't have him going on and off his meds over and over again.  That would get tedious quick.

 

It would, alas, be realistic.  My brother-in-law is bi-polar and getting him to stay on his meds is tough.

[Syndicate]

I'm curious as to whether anything specific has turned Andre into this disturbed person he's become.  I remember Uncle Vernon and Andre talking in the pilot.  Andre said something cryptic about never forgetting Uncle Vernon or something similar.  Did Uncle Vernon rape/molest Andre when he was little?  Lucious and Cookie will both kill him if this is the case.

[Dusty]

 

It would, alas, be realistic.  My brother-in-law is bi-polar and getting him to stay on his meds is tough.

 

Oh I totally get that it would be realistic.  But I watch Homeland and I don't need another Carrie.

 

I don't think they're going to go there with Andre and Vernon. (Thank you for this thread because the only name I could remember for him was "J.C." from New York Undercover.)  I think it's just standard plots within plots.  I think Vernon was just hedging his bets on who is going to take the company and Andre was saying that he won't forget it when he's on top.  It makes sense to support Andre.  No one but Lucious thinks Hakeem can do it and Jamal has shown zero interest in running a business. 

[Milz]

Ok, Empire may be my new favorite show.

And I agree with people who have already posted  Lucious still has feelings for Cookie, which makes me wonder why he completely abondoned her. Im not suprised he divorced her though its not like she was sentenced for 1 or even 5 years she was sentenced for 30. Thats pretty much the end of your relationship right there. But why he stopped contact with her is odd and cold,  He could've sent her a Christmas card, or pictures of the kids once or twice a year. But Cookie definately has a hold on him, he pretty does whatever she says and lets her do whatever she wants, she says the artist should be fired, he fires him, she shows up at the house unannouced makes Lucious pay the taxi driver, says she hungry and Lucious feeds her. I get why Boo Boo Kitty feels threatened.

 

But I also think Cookie still has feelings for Lucious and I feel bad for her. I guessing their characters are close the actors ages which is mid-fourties, Based on that and their kids age and the fact that Bunkie is her cousin and Bunkie has known Lucious since they were 14. Cookie and Lucious have probably been together since they were kids. He may have been the only man she'd been with. And while he has moved on, for her time has stood still, she probably has some unresolved feelings.

 

In the pilot after Hakeem was broomed, he tells Lucious that he was happy he (Lucious) kept him (Hakeem) away from Cookie when he was growing up. So did Cookie also give up her parental rights when she was imprisoned? According to this http://www.reentry.net/ny/help/item.2917-Parental_Rights, Cookie would have had to kill someone for her parental rights to be terminated upon sentencing.

[aprilbabe]

In the pilot after Hakeem was broomed, he tells Lucious that he was happy he (Lucious) kept him (Hakeem) away from Cookie when he was growing up. So did Cookie also give up her parental rights when she was imprisoned? According to this http://www.reentry.net/ny/help/item.2917-Parental_Rights, Cookie would have had to kill someone for her parental rights to be terminated upon sentencing.

I don't know,  when you go to prision do you have the right to see youR kids? Meaning legally does the other parent have to take the child to visit them? I don't think so.

I think Andre didn't want to visit his mom so Lucious didn't make him. He's the oldest so he completely understands whats going on and was probably embarressed. I thnk Jamal clearly had the closet attachment to Cookie and wanted to visit her and based on the flashback, Lucious did take him, even though he didn't go in. I think with Hakeem Lucious made the point to not bother taking him to visit her. Probably because if he took a youngest to visit Cookie, HE would have to visit her as well since he cant just send him in there on his own and he clearly for whatever reason didn't want to.

 

Question 30 years seems like a long time for drugs, is that a normal sentence?

Edited January 16, 2015 by aprilbabe

[40Love]

Question 30 years seems like a long time for drugs, is that a normal sentence?

 

It happens... especially during the "Just Say No" and "War on Drugs" White House administrations at the time she was arrested. I know of a couple of street level drug dealers who got 30+ years. Some are still behind bars to this day.

 

So, I can see Cookie getting that much time, especially if she was portrayed as the mastermind of the operation and didn't turn against guy(s) above her. 

[Milz]

I don't know,  when you go to prision do you have the right to see youR kids? Meaning legally does the other parent have to take the child to visit them? I don't think so.

I think Andre didn't want to visit his mom so Lucious didn't make him. He's the oldest so he completely understands whats going on and was probably embarressed. I thnk Jamal clearly had the closet attachment to Cookie and wanted to visit her and based on the flashback, Lucious did take him, even though he didn't go in. I think with Hakeem Lucious made the point to not bother taking him to visit her. Probably because if he took a youngest to visit Cookie, HE would have to visit her as well since he cant just send him in there on his own and he clearly for whatever reason didn't want to.

 

Question 30 years seems like a long time for drugs, is that a normal sentence?

 

I found this on the American Bar Association site http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/childrights/content/articles/winter2012-young-child-incarcerated-parent.html. As long as the court doesn't find the child's life, health or safety is in danger or the parental rights haven't been terminated, the parent has a right to visit with the child.

 

Jamal visited with Cookie---if only as a Lucious' messenger to tell Cookie 'bye'. Andre didn't want to visit and Cookie wanted him to visit only if he wanted to (that's my interpretation of 1 or 2 sentences they exchanged on the topic). Hakeem states Lucious kept him away from Cookie. 

 

So if Cookie's stance was " if the boys want to visit me, they can, but I'm not going to force them", why would Hakeem say  Lucious kept him away from her? Hakeem was a baby/toddler when Cookie was locked up. He really didn't have a choice in the matter unlike Andre  and Jamal who were older and could tell Lucious/Bunkie their feelings about it.  I could see an older Hakeem (maybe 5 years and older) refuse to see Cookie out of loyalty to his father or to get his father's approval (which all three of them want: Lucious' approval)

 

According to what I've found the average sentence for Federal drug trafficking is 72.7 months a little over 6 years. Cookie got 5 times that, so maybe there were additional charges.

[SimoneS]

Question 30 years seems like a long time for drugs, is that a normal sentence?

 

Yes, for a black person dealing crack in the 80s and 90s. During the hysteria of the crack epidemic draconian drugs were written on both the federal and state levels to levy excessive punishment on the possession and sale of crack, specifically. These laws targeted urban black communities where crack use was prevalent because of its cheapness, while giving whites who used the more expensive cocaine far lighter prison sentences. These laws are why more black people are disproportionally incarcerated than white people. It was only a few years ago, that the federal government passed legislation tackling the disparity in drug sentences. Now  you see the President and governors of various sentences commuting the sentences of people imprisoned for drug use and low level dealing.

Edited January 16, 2015 by SimoneS

[Jipijapa]

I caught the second episode of this (not having seen the first, but knowing the general gist) and found it surprisingly good (I suppose it's because they have a director who knows what he's doing?).  I'm not going to watch it live, but will DVR it probably.

 

Fave moment from this episode was the cold-eyed way that Cookie turned around stared at Lucious in the elevator - twice!  

 

Also, Porsha cracks me up.  

Edited January 16, 2015 by Jipijapa

[rollacoaster]

I was really disappointed in how the show ended up portraying Tiyanna.  I was so glad that she blew off Hakeem, initially.  She seemed to be a strong, independent young woman who was focused on her own life and career, not interested in or impressed by Hakeem and his connections.  Go, girl!  It would have been cool to see Hakeem have to man up and work to earn her attention and respect.  Then, at the end, there she was, coming when he beckoned, and offering to have sex on the floor.  Sigh.

[40Love]

Yes, for a black person dealing crack in the 80s and 90s. During the hysteria of the crack epidemic draconian drugs were written on both the federal and state levels to levy excessive punishment on the possession and sale of crack, specifically. These laws targeted urban black communities where crack use was prevalent because of its cheapness, while giving whites who used the more expensive cocaine far lighter prison sentences. These laws are why more black people are proportionally incarcerated than white people. It was only a few years ago, that the federal government passed legislation tackling the disparity in drug sentences. Now  you see the President and governors of various sentences commuting the sentences of people imprisoned for drug use and low level dealing.

Yeah... Amazingly enough those long, excessive sentences did nothing to stem, stop or deter the drug trade. Convicted killers, rapists and child molesters received shorter sentences than street level drug dealers. 

[SimoneS]

Yeah... Amazingly enough those long, excessive sentences did nothing to stem, stop or deter the drug trade. Convicted killers, rapists and child molesters received shorter sentences than street level drug dealers. 

 

Goes to show how racism can make a society crazy. I am showing my age, but I clearly remember the days of the crack epidemic. No doubt that the epidemic was horrible and that it resulted in a lot of violence in urban black communities, but the media portrayed it as if hordes of drugged up black people were about to invade white suburbia, even though cocaine and heroin use was much higher in those same white suburbs. 

 

I always remember the story of Kemba Smith who went to Hampton University and dropped out when her abusive drug dealing boyfriend got her caught up in the drug trade. She was like 20 years old or and pled guilty to carrying cash and conspiracy charges associated with her boyfriend's drug ring and because of mandatory sentencing drug laws and she got 24 years. It was crazy. Her parents were well connected and fought for her (while raising her son), She was lucky that President Clinton commuted her sentence after six and half years.

 

My point being that Cookie would have easily gotten 30 years for dealing drugs. Frankly, she was lucky that she did not get a life sentence.

Edited January 21, 2015 by SimoneS

[Ohwell]

Ok, I'm going to get this off my chest:  The one thing that I didn't like about this episode was the references to President Obama.  I just thought it showed a lack of respect for him and his office.  I think that if, say, Duck Dynasty had done something like that, there would have been outrage in some quarters.  This is fun, trashy soap opera to me and I hope they will leave the President out of it in the future.  

[maczero]

For all Cookies non political correctness, she didn't even flinch or shy away when Jamal and Micheal were in bed. Hell, she ended up getting in bed with them. Her actions not her words show how she loves and accepts him for who he is.

I've got mixed feelings on this.  She may be open minded enough to accept and love her son for who he is, but the quips about his sexuality still come off as disapproving.  I mean my dad accepts that I date outside of my race but I know he doesn't agree with it.

[ribboninthesky1]

Ok, I'm going to get this off my chest:  The one thing that I didn't like about this episode was the references to President Obama.  I just thought it showed a lack of respect for him and his office.  I think that if, say, Duck Dynasty had done something like that, there would have been outrage in some quarters.  This is fun, trashy soap opera to me and I hope they will leave the President out of it in the future.  

 

Right there with you.  If the show had attacked his policies and positions, I wouldn't have cared.  Politics certainly up for debate.  But, just because President Obama is a biracial man who identifies as black, it doesn't make him commonly familiar.  He's earned and deserves the respect of the Presidential office.  Not saying he can't be referenced in the show at all, but those scenes crossed over into unnecessary tackiness. 

 

I was really disappointed in how the show ended up portraying Tiyanna.  I was so glad that she blew off Hakeem, initially.  She seemed to be a strong, independent young woman who was focused on her own life and career, not interested in or impressed by Hakeem and his connections.  Go, girl!  It would have been cool to see Hakeem have to man up and work to earn her attention and respect.  Then, at the end, there she was, coming when he beckoned, and offering to have sex on the floor.  Sigh.

 

Agreed.  Ah, the folly of youth.

[Timetoread]

I've got mixed feelings on this.  She may be open minded enough to accept and love her son for who he is, but the quips about his sexuality still come off as disapproving.  I mean my dad accepts that I date outside of my race but I know he doesn't agree with it.

 

I'm okay with that.  Cookie has the right to disapprove.  Anyone can approve and disapprove of anything and everything.  What is important is that she makes it known that she loves him and supports him regardless.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I must be in the minority but I hope Lucious and Cookie stay done.

This man probably let her take his fall for the drugs he abandoned her in prison, spent half the episode disregarding her and letting that punk ass rapper do the same he's a punk and I don't need Cookie getting back together with someone who treated her like that.

Make that a super minority, I wanted to punch Looshus in the face when he let that rapper disrespect Cookie. If I were her I would look at him with nothing but disgust and contempt. The mother of his children took the fall for him, and that's his reaction, bitch please.

 

Also the actor playing Hakeem is good, because I hate that little mf. When he peed in the restaurant, I wish someone had beaten him with a broom like Cookie. The sense of entitlement, disregard, and obliviousness of this brat is almost unbearable, but then I see him with Jamal, and, sigh.

 

 

Question 30 years seems like a long time for drugs, is that a normal sentence?

Also if she was charged under drug kingpin laws, where the amount determines the sentence, some states can give life sentences, so no 30 is not so much depending on how she was charged.

 

 

Ok, I'm going to get this off my chest:  The one thing that I didn't like about this episode was the references to President Obama.  I just thought it showed a lack of respect for him and his office.  I think that if, say, Duck Dynasty had done something like that, there would have been outrage in some quarters.  This is fun, trashy soap opera to me and I hope they will leave the President out of it in the future.

Right there with you, thinking that President Obama would bother calling that bama is offensive.

 

 

About Ankia, her "accidentally" running into Lucius and Cookie in her lingerie made me roll my eyes to the point of blindness. Anika may think and actually be better than Cookie in some ways, but her willingness to mark "her" territory by strutting around the house in her drawers like she's on the runway at the Victoria Secret Fashion show just shows that she can be a trick when she wants to be. While I don't think that Cookie still loves Lucius, I know she hates Anika and will make short work of her way sooner than later-and she's got the claws to do it.

This, Anika literally and figuratively showed her ass by parading around in lingerie. What message did she think she was conveying, because all it says to me is that she is insecure and has no class. Cookie's reaction was priceless.

 

 

I am so over ignorant punks like Hakeem calling educated Blacks "sellouts" just because we don't get high, disrespect women nor mooch off our parents.

Let me add to that list anyone who calls speaking proper English "talking white," the epitome of ignorance.

Edited January 16, 2015 by BigBlueMastiff

[Milz]

I'm okay with that.  Cookie has the right to disapprove.  Anyone can approve and disapprove of anything and everything.  What is important is that she makes it known that she loves him and supports him regardless.

 

This is what I love about Cookie. Okay, she's got a huge mouth and an attitude to match, but she loves her children and accepts her children. And I think her calling Jamal's BF (sorry, I can't remember his name) "Dora" or being initially indifferent to Rhoda is because she doesn't think anyone is good enough for her sons.

 

 

Also the actor playing Hakeem is good, because I hate that little mf. When he peed in the restaurant, I wish someone had beaten him with a broom like Cookie. The sense of entitlement, disregard, and obliviousness of this brat is almost unbearable, but then I see him with Jamal, and, sigh.

 

If Cookie was in that restaurant and she saw Hakeem do that.....

[Neurochick]

I've got mixed feelings on this.  She may be open minded enough to accept and love her son for who he is, but the quips about his sexuality still come off as disapproving.  I mean my dad accepts that I date outside of my race but I know he doesn't agree with it.

 

 

I think Cookie is hood as they come; she might not use the prettiest of languages when she describes Jamal, but she loves her son and accepts who he is.  It is possible to accept something and not agree with it.  Your dad may never agree with you dating outside your race, but he doesn't have to agree, all he has to do is accept that you're dating outside your race.

[rubinia]

If the PR lady got all of those sources to gather to see Jamal's "coming out" party...did she not tell them what, exactly, they were coming to witness? My point being, even though Jamal didn't actually show up, would the sources have been aware that Lucious Lyon's son was gay and wanted to proclaim it to the world...even if the son didn't actually proclaim it himself? They'd still now know that he was gay and could start spreadin' the news.

[Timetoread]

Make that a super minority, I wanted to punch Looshus in the face when he let that rapper disrespect Cookie. If I were her I would look at him with nothing but disgust and contempt. The mother of his children took the fall for him, and that's his reaction, bitch please.

 

I was soooo angry at that.  I was like "How can you let that fool talk to her, OR ANY WOMAN in your presence, that way?"   With a cooler head prevailing I am thinking that Lucius is struggling getting his story straight in his head.  Cookie showed up unexpectedly and she, for so long, has been the thing he's hidden in the closet.  He made his kids wary and afraid of her because (and they were both complicit in this) they wanted to raise their children away from the world of the streets and sadly Cookie was the avatar for that.  She has been Otherworldly to the boys and to the persona he has set up for himself.  But he needed reminding that, in spite of her brash defensive demeanor, this woman took the fall for him so that he can pursue the dream they shared together.  How many nights did he spend in bed with her not only making those sons he loves but planning that empire he loves as well?  I get that he doesn't quite know what to do with her right now.  She's no longer his wife.  He's got a completely new, unrecognizable (to her) life that she doesn't fit in.  He does owe her something for what she contributed to get him there but he doesn't want to hand her HALF his company either.  The guilt he feels about having removed her from their son's lives.  And she has nowhere else to go, everybody she is connected to is connected to him as well.   I get it, he's a bit constipated right now, but Cookie doesn't deserve to be crapped on.  I would have stayed mad about it but controversy or no, it was no small thing that he summarily dropped one of his biggest acts - a brutal, if delayed reaction.  I'm sure the rapper would have preferred if he had just punched him.  Lucius gets it too.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Timetoread

[DollEyes]

 Two for two. Another great episode. Empire just keeps getting better; otoh, some characters just keep getting worse. Case in point: Lucius. His fake grief and outrage over Bunkie's death when he was the one who capped his sorry/greedy ass in the first place was bad enough, but his blackmailing Jamal was cruel, tacky and hypocritical. Lucius telling Andre that controversy sells records out of one side of his mouth while telling Jamal to deny his sexuality because it's "too controversial" reeked of hypocrisy among other things, aka "bullshit." Since Lucius doesn't want to pay Jamal's way anymore, by his standards, he shouldn't mind if Cookie takes him to another label, especially their biggest rival. Who cares if losing Jamal to the competition makes Lucius and the label look bad? At least Lucius won't have his gay son on the payroll anymore. That Lucius' ignorance would offend a huge demographic with tons of disposable income is apparently beside the point to him. Giving Jamal the props he deserves is like pulling teeth for Lucius. Jamal has tried his best to impress Lucius but Lucius won't be moved. Given Jamal's talent, since Lucius doesn't appreciate him, he should find a label that does.

 

  If anyone of Lucius' sons deserved his wrath this week, it was Hakeem, not Jamal. Hakeem showed his ass in more ways than one. Between his being drunk in public, dissing President Obama and peeing on camera, Hakeem did more damage in a day than Jamal ever has. Lucius should have beat Hakeem's butt with a broom for what he said about Obama alone. I am so over ignorant punks like Hakeem calling educated Blacks "sellouts" just because we don't get high, disrespect women nor mooch off our parents. Hakeem needs to stop acting like the Black Bieber and start using his talents instead of wasting them every chance he gets. Re Andre', as expected, his being bipolar is already starting to hurt his judgment, as his attempts to make Hakeem and Jamal destroy  each other so that he can take over the label with Rhonda's "help," proves. Speaking of Rhonda, she's a ball-buster in every sense of the word. If Andre' gets the keys to the kingdom, Rhonda will be the power behind-and occasionally in front of-the throne, bib included, which has not gone unnoticed by Cookie. Then again nothing gets past Cookie for long. Game recognizes game.

 

  Speaking of Cookie, she still rules. She suffers no fools, respects few boundaries and takes no prisoners, as Lucius, Jamal, Michael, Anika and Cookie's new assistant Porsha learned the hard way, whether she barged in on Jamichael in bed, threw shoes at Lucius or threw jabs at Porsha and Anika.  About Anika, her "accidentally" running into Lucius and Cookie in her lingerie made me roll my eyes to the point of blindness. Anika may think and actually be better than Cookie in some ways, but her willingness to mark "her" territory by strutting around the house in her drawers like she's on the runway at the Victoria Secret Fashion show just shows that she can be a trick when she wants to be. While I don't think that Cookie still loves Lucius, I know she hates Anika and will make short work of her way sooner than later-and she's got the claws to do it.

Edited January 17, 2015 by DollEyes

[ribboninthesky1]

If the PR lady got all of those sources to gather to see Jamal's "coming out" party...did she not tell them what, exactly, they were coming to witness? My point being, even though Jamal didn't actually show up, would the sources have been aware that Lucious Lyon's son was gay and wanted to proclaim it to the world...even if the son didn't actually proclaim it himself? They'd still now know that he was gay and could start spreadin' the news.

 

I assumed she didn't tell what the special performance was about, only that there was one.  I think it was supposed to be outside of the same club, so "Empire brothers clashing" or something like that could have been the draw.

[Actionmage]

Cookie showed up unexpectedly and she, for so long, has been the thing he's hidden in the closet. 

 

Cookie was a "surprise" to Lucious and Hakeem.  Jamal and Andre seemed to have known about her release within hours/days (that part wasn't made super clear.) Also, either son who knew could have told Lu, but didn't, which speaks to them. I can see Jamal believing Cookie- to a degree- that she wanted to surprise Lucious or just settle in a bit before telling everyone. Andre, using her early release to add to his machinations, I have no problem seeing him keeping the  news quiet, regardless of what Cookie said.  Lucious was surprised only because he chose not to keep up with his own ex-wife's life. Just because Bunkie was "assigned" to keep Lucious in the loop doesn't mean it was on Bunkie. Why not Becky, his mega-efficient and caring P.A.? Odds are, Becky'd have some app remind her to check on Cookie's time left and just mention it to Lu. No messy scene with Bunkie. Or at least, one less. 

 

He made his kids wary and afraid of her because

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree. Andre was older than Jamal and both are old enough to still be loving towards her. Jamal is massively loved by Cookie and he knows it. Jamal may be wary now because she and Lu are  seemingly intent on pitting Jamal and Hakeem against each other, but there is no fear of Cookie in Jamal.

 

Andre, I believe, was the one in the car flashback, so he remembers the most about Cookie. He's known her love and discipline, but Andre is more wary now more because he's got schemes going that he doesn't want anyone to blow up, with or without a bib. If Andre fears her it's because he did something incredibly stupid to her face. Something we may actually get if Rhonda can't keep the lug medicated.

 

Hakeem may be the only one Lucious has actually made wary and afraid. Lucious' go-to method of defense is disinformation and flat-out lies (see: Bunkie.) Hakeem was seemingly never made to understand how big her sacrifice was and that act accorded her respect, as it got the rest of the family where they are. ( I have thoughts and feelings on that, but that's for Lucious' thread.) I am curious as to what exactly Lucious told Hakeem as he got older and if Jamal or Andre ever tried to set him straight on Cookie's history.

 

IA that Kid Four Four would probably rather taken a punch from Lucious rather than get booted. Yet, a guy who can't acknowledge his problematic behavior as problematic saying unwise things to his label owner's ex-wife? In front of said owner?  He's still able to use his moneymaker, so call it a day and thank Lu for his time.

[fivestone]

I was really disappointed in how the show ended up portraying Tiyanna.  I was so glad that she blew off Hakeem, initially.  She seemed to be a strong, independent young woman who was focused on her own life and career, not interested in or impressed by Hakeem and his connections.  Go, girl!  It would have been cool to see Hakeem have to man up and work to earn her attention and respect.  Then, at the end, there she was, coming when he beckoned, and offering to have sex on the floor.  Sigh.

 

Yeah, I was pretty disappointed, too. But now I'm wondering if she's got something up her sleeve. I'd like to think so - I would much rather that she be actually using Hakeem to advance her career or something rather than actually falling for his foolishness.

[ribboninthesky1]

Andre, I believe, was the one in the car flashback, so he remembers the most about Cookie. He's known her love and discipline, but Andre is more wary now more because he's got schemes going that he doesn't want anyone to blow up, with or without a bib.

 

I can't! But may I just express how many questions I had about the bib? Is it used all the time or just in the morning? Is there a schedule, so she knows when to have it at the ready? How do you ensure no residue gets on Andre's suits? Is it disposable, or washable? Does Andre have his own bib? Is it stored with the linens? I need answers.