S05.E01: Episode One

[Camera One]

She just seemed like she was being her usual pushy self and that it was more about showing the Crawleys what kind of person she is as opposed to genuinely caring about the staff and the efforts they made for the party.

 

She was snide when Anna was explaining about the breakfast trays.  It was sort of insulting since Bunting was basically implying their entire career as servants was silly and not worthwhile.

[ZulaMay]

Pogojoco, the list of ways in which Robert is an idiot is too long to include in one post.

 

I just wish people would tell him that more often instead of indulging him.  It just makes him more of an idiot.

[Andorra]

Well, I love Tom to pieces, but I still think that Robert is not wrong in being a bit worried that Tom be influenced in the wrong way by Bunting. The integration in the family didn't go completely smoothly and it wasn't all the Crawley's fault. I DO think they were more to blame for the uncomfortable atmosphere at the beginning, but it was not as if Tom was angel who took every blow in subdued silence.

 

He WAS angry and passionate about Ireland and although it was justified, it still was not wise to get defensive and agressive at the dinner table. Tom had more reason to be angry than Sarah Bunting of course and he never was a mean wasp like her who likes to see other's squirm, but the point is that he has matured by now and knows how to handle a discussion better and in a more educated and polite way, without getting angry. I'm not so sure about Robert in that aspect, but Tom definitely is better mannered than he was when he first came back to Downton and I see it as an improvement.

 

I don't think it is fair to see Tom as the white hero and Robert as the dark villain in their relationship. Robert DID let him come back after Tom married Sybil, he DID help him when he turned up at his doorstep after the Ireland incident, he DID let him stay after Sybil died and he DID give him the job as the agent.

It all happened reluctantly and with a lot of prodding of the rest of the family, but the thing is that Robert is not a monster. He is a butthead sometimes, but he has a good heart within IMO and I like it that Tom sees that.  It reflects well on Tom and is proof that he does indeed see the people and not the "type".

 

Also I think that Tom see a father figure in Robert and wants his approval. It's again a proof that Tom is a very nice person, because he could have blamed Robert for his behaviour in the night Sybil died or he could have blamed Robert for the lack of feeling he first showed for his granddaughter. But Tom doesn't reject Robert, in the contrary, he wants to live with him peacefully. On the other side I think Robert wants the same now for him and Tom. He doesn't want him to leave, he respects him and likes him. He knows they will never look eye to eye on many things, but I think as a person Robert is very fond of Tom now and wouldn't want to lose him.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Andorra

[ZulaMay]

It wasn't wise to be a forceful at the dinner table because they wouldn't react well or try to see his side of things.  They were looking for reasons to criticize them and he gave them that.  On the other hand?  He was never rude or said anything against them personally.  I see it more as a matter of him adapting to their way of conversing, etc.  In his "world" people would argue politics at the table and disagreement didn't have to turn to aggression or butthurt.

 

As for Robert letting him stay and giving him the job?  Sure, that was nice enough, although if it were up to HIM that would never have happened.  He did all of it reluctantly, so he doesn't merit a pat on the back for it.  I wouldn't exactly call it generous.  The Agent job was vacated, the previous guy had mucked it up, and the position needed to be filled.  Tom was getting ready to take Sybbie and high-tail it out of there.  He told Mathew he WANTED to leave:  "cut and run" as he called it.  Even Matthew was fed up with Robert at that time.

 

Robert was actually lucky Tom stayed.  He took up the job, worked hard at it, helped them turn their precious estate around.  He let them be near their granddaughter when he would have been within his rights to take her away.  He's done so at sacrifice to himself, feeling alienated and awkward for years. He's faced hostility from Carson and Thomas, often from Robert himself, patronizing behavior from Violet, and now apparently unjustified suspicion from Robert who STILL believes he'd do something dishonorable as soon as the family is out of the house.

 

It's required a more sacrifice on his part than on Roberts.  He did it for Sybbie and Sybil, but it's benefited Robert and IMO is better than he deserves.  Robert isn't a "villain" now, but his behavior after Sybil died was monstrous:  being awful to Tom, insulting his religion at the table, wanting him and Sybbie out of the house.  After the way Robert behaved the night Sybil died and after?  Tom never spoke a word to him in blame or anger.   Tom's remarkable forbearance and patience in that terrible time?  That alone is worth 10 times more than Robert did or will ever allow him in return.  

 

I would not bother rehashing the past had it been not for Robert's  attitude in 5.01; but that just proved that he still doesn't hold Tom in the regard he should.  And Tom met him more than halfway by apologizing and thinking of his feelings rather than his own.  All he did was make him uncomfortable at the dinner table, and it wasn't even really his fault.  And even before Sarah showed her colors Robert and Violet had their claws out for her:   the minute she walked in the room they were giving her the stink-eye and muttering to each other like a pair of clique-y high school girls.

 

Look, overall I think Robert's decent to him....NOW.  But Tom is still doing more of the heavy lifting to make this work, and I don't think Robert appreciates that enough.  Nor does he give him the benefit of the doubt as he should, even though IMO Tom would do and has done that for HIM.

Edited September 25, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Andorra]

Oh, I won't argue with you that Tom is 10 times worth Robert as a person. Robert is deeply flawed and Tom is basically a saint in his patience with thim.

I like their difficult relationship though.I like it that Robert IMO really depends on Tom now and can't help liking him even if he resisted that feeling for long. I think it makes for an interesting dynamic.

[olivia1]

What was with the heavy handed brow pencil in this episode? When Rose went to see Tom in his office his looked like he'd drawn them on with a black Sharpie that was not a fine tip. Cora's were black as night too and I was totally distracted by them.

 

I know that  wasn't a deep thought, but other than Robert and Cora being idiots, loving Molesly and Baxter,  Mrs. Hughes,  little Marigold, and the name Donk,  hoping Daisy learns something,  tired of Thomas's shenanigans, hoping Mary dumps Tony and gets with Blake even if it's just long enough for them to sing a duet, glad there was minimal Bates,and not caring about James one way or the other I've got nothing else.

[eyetotelescope]

This episode just reminded me of how past its prime this show is.  It's gotten so repetitive and cliche that it feels like a satire of its former self.  The characters, in particular, have become so one-dimensional that I can't recognize the characters that were developed in the first two seasons.  However, I suspect I'll keep watching it out of fondness for its past glory (after all, I watched every season of How I Met Your Mother, and we all know how that turned out).

[DianeDobbler]

Tom was never angry and a hater. :(

 

I liked this episode well enough, but I must say that as with last season, I don't get any story sense at all. The first three Downton seasons I knew the main story was the love story between Mary and Matthew. However long it took, the story was about those two and would they or wouldn't they. There was also the Sybil/Tom love story, and "Will the Crowleys Lose Downton".  Now, it feels to me as if the show runner is merely spinning his wheels, putting elements on camera but not committing to any direction, and the problem is mostly chemistry.

 

This might be farfetched, but every other Downton fan I know in person (which is three people - two who watch regularly and one who watches sometimes) thinks Mary will end up with Tom. I don't think that's what the show runner wants, ideally, but I think he'll go there in the end if the audience continues to shrug off Mary's current suitors. Look at the dialogue we've got with her and Gillingham - it's all about how her feelings aren't exactly catching fire even though she likes/loves him fine, and maybe there's something she can do (like sex). This chemistry problem isn't going to solve itself just by having Gillingham/Mary hang around a bunch together on camera. And just like last season, three "oh, they're okay I guess" suitors do not = one GREAT suitor.

 

So, Tom. Watching last night, it was so noncommittal with him. What story are they tellng? There's Bunting. It almost seems as if they're using Bunting to get Rose in there by stealth. Rose wants Tom happy, Rose is considerate, so she includes Bunting at the party. MY problem is - why? There's really no evidence that Rose can see that Tom is particularly fond of Bunting. Maybe Rose has it in her head that Tom needs a nudge to "move on" and be happy, but there really has to be SOME indication he actually likes some woman for the nudging and match making to be interesting. Tom's story is just floating up there - Bunting is neither here nor there, just a reminder of Tom's background. Rose is a sweetheart and, IMO, has a lovely chemistry with Tom and that would work wonderfully, but to me it feels as if they just moved her in range but aren't going to tell a story. And why? Because it all depends on Mary. If any of Mary's love interests had worked or were working, her story would get going, and then everybody else's story could get going. We could see Tom and Rose or whatever. But because her love interests are bleh, the show runner doesn't want to commit anyone else.

 

Elsewhere - can't get too worked up over Thomas's storyline - this is the same story he always gets. Skates close to the edge of being sacked or being a villain, redeems himself on a couple of fronts (here, with Jimmy and with the fire). He and Jimmy continue to have a nice chemistry and I have no idea what that's about either. If this were a more vivid show, I'd figure the story was Jimmy wasn't a 100% committed heterosexual after all, and that the show was telling us this, while also showing us Thomas's love for him was true and pure, since he's helping him out and supporting him even though he believes Jimmy isn't gay. But even the ambiguity with Jimmy is ambiguous - don't even know if it's ambiguous, that's how ambiguous it is! :) Same with Tom too - THAT's ambiguous. Is the Rose/Bunting thing a "thing" or what? What's Bunting supposed to be, what's Rose supposed to be?

 

Glad they're moving on a bit with Daisy - that's something.

[kpw801]

See, I would have punted Miss Bunting out the door. She wasn't simply rude to the host, but to other guests and she was being deliberately contentious. 

 

Every time, no joke, EVERY time the Thomas/Baxter baloney started amping up again, my brain went right here.

OMG!  I followed the "right here" link and nearly dropped my laptop!  That is too funny!  I feel the same way!  They have turned Thomas into some kind of silent movie screen villain.  It is the same story from season 1 with Bates and his dark secret back story.  Also, Thomas gets away with everything all the time.  I was looking at the previews for next week and find it really rich that he snidely remarks to Molsley that Baxter is a "thief" when he was a thief in season 1.  He is two times as guilty as everyone else of anything you can sack a servant for.  Even Bates who went to prison was only there as a proxy for the true criminal.  Tired of Thomas.  Not convinced with Tony Gillingham and Mary as love partners.  In fact, I think Tony has a secret.  Not sure what it is though.

[Andorra]

Interesting theory about the show not going anywhere storywise, because Mary's romance hasn't clicked yet. It is possible, but it seems weird. I don't know that many people who actually care much about Mary's story to be honest.

 

Yes, the showmakers have always tried to sell Mary/Matthew as the big thing and it worked for part of the audience, but there were enough who never watched the show for Mary or Matthew. I, for example, just didn't care for their romance. It was nice and ok, but I wasn't emotionally invested in it at all. If Matthew had married Lavinia or Mary had married Sir Richard, I wouldn't have been upset.

 

And I don't think I'm alone in this. Having such a huge cast gives people a lot of characters to invest in. So there is not one big ship that drives the story. That's what I love about the show and I would be sad, if the producers now just stall everything because they think no one can move on before Mary does? Doesn't make sense to me.

[DianeDobbler]

"Interesting theory about the show not going anywhere storywise, because Mary's romance hasn't clicked yet. It is possible, but it seems weird. I don't know that many people who actually care much about Mary's story to be honest."

 

The theory is based on what I think the showrunner cares about. I think the fact that people don't care much about Mary's story might be the whole problem with the rest of the show - i.e., the showrunner wants to make us care before he'll let anyone else move forward. If, in the end, by the conclusion of Downton, he doesn't find another Matthew for her, he might put Tom there. People care about Tom. If people can't care about Mary's love story, well at least they can care about the guy she ends up with.

 

We all care about a ton of other stuff, but even dialing back to Season 1, who had the engine stories? Mary. Bates had the other one. Mary's been the engine ever since. When the showrunner talks about the show, it's almost all Mary, like Marcia Marcia always Marcia! Not that the other characters aren't very popular, or more popular. I'm just thinking about him, and how he sees the show, and how he, most of all, protects Mary. Last season everyone was supposed to be gaga over Mary and three suitors. The final shot of the final episodes just drove that home. Tom had no long story (which means love story), just short arcs. The engine story is the engine story broken down into shorter arcs and those shorter arcs feed story to most of the other characters. That was Mary every season. Everyone else (but Bates) had their little side short arc stories and then not a lot to do when those resolved or before those began.

 

My current problem with Downton is I care about mostly Edith and Tom. I'm over Mary. I'm over the writing for her that actually narrates the script/casting problems to us. "I need a major love interest, and of course this is a very fine actor here, but I'm not sure he's The One."

 

Edith has a long story, but it's not exactly working like an engine. The father of her daughter has vanished (right? or was that resolved last season). Her daughter is being raised by a fireman's family. Edith is happy/sad about it. There's no progress. To tell the story, the real father has to return, Edith and the fireman have to fall in love (obvious to us but not acknowledged by them) and the fireman's wife ultimately kicks the bucket a la Matthew's Season 2 finacee'. Cue all kinds of conflictual reaction from the Grantham famila. OMG - Edith had a baby who is now a little girl! (do they all know?) OMG, Edith is marrying a fireman? How much riff raff must this family take in - "no offense Tom!" "None taken, your lordship.". Violet shocks everyone by throwing her full support behind the match. That's a story. I don't think there's much chemistry between the fireman and Edith, don't know if her baby daddy is ever coming back, but something needs to become a soap opera here (that's what Downton is, after all).

 

What I really want is Rose and Tom, but after all the fan fare bringing in Rose they're not doing much with her. She alternates between the sort of envelope pushing rebel she was last season. Last season she dated the jazz singer. We all knew that wasn't going anywhere, BUT it established that Rose had a heart of purest gold, with a little parental rebellion in it, was a bit of a Sybil soul-mate when it came to class differences and not caring about what people had $$, and she's chock full of empathy. Bunting is just meh. She seems the wrong age, and the actress is so damn short. When she's in a scene with other characters, it almost feels as if her head is barely poking up into the frame. Not much charisma either.

Edited September 28, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[Eolivet]

Great post, DianeDobbler. Love your point about "engine stories," and the contrast with short arcs. I still feel like Fellowes sees Robert as the male lead (and Mary as the female lead), but I'd be hard pressed to find more serialized stories for Robert than for Bates. Mary and Bates really do drive the upstairs and downstairs stories, respectively.

 

What I find interesting about the groundwork that was laid for Mary's romance this past episode is that Fellowes has never written a love triangle where a person is torn between two love interests. Never. It's always "One person loves another, and a third person loves the first person." That was Bates/Anna/Vera and Anna/Bates/Moseley. That was Daisy/Thomas/William and Alfred/Ivy/Daisy. Matthew/Mary/Edith in S1, and Mary/Matthew/Carlisle and Matthew/Lavinia/Mary in S2.

 

Likewise, I see nothing to indicate Mary's current triangle isn't Mary/Gillingham/Blake. There has only been one time in the show's history where the first person has rejected the second person in favor of the third person (Matthew/Lavinia/Mary) and that was only because the second person died! If Mary and Blake end up together, it would be unprecedented. It doesn't mean it can't happen, but it would be vastly different from anything Fellowes has ever written.

[kpw801]

It may just be me, but is anyone else getting tired of Isobel always trumpeting the "I think young people should speak their minds..." horn no matter what is on the specific mind?  Would she applaud anyone else being as rude and deliberately ugly as Sarah Bunting was to Robert about the war memorial?  How did it get all over the village anyway that they didn't want the Earl?  He may be a bit dumb in business but from what the character's history has shown he has always been a lenient generous landlord.  Why in the world is there this simmering resentment?

[Camera One]

but is anyone else getting tired of Isobel always trumpeting the "I think young people should speak their minds..." horn no matter what is on the specific mind?

 

This is just typical of the every-character-only-has-their-patented-usual-response syndrome that this show has fallen into.  

 

Interesting theory about the show not going anywhere storywise, because Mary's romance hasn't clicked yet. It is possible, but it seems weird. I don't know that many people who actually care much about Mary's story to be honest.

 

I think Diane's point was that NONE of the stories are going anywhere.  Before Season 4, I fully expected Mary to eventually reject Blake and Gillingham and see something in Tom.  But now I'm not as sure since we have seen nothing in that direction.  The problem with Mary/Tom was they needed to give some time and distance after Matthew's death, and it would be tricky to pair Mary with Tom since Tom was married to her sister.   So I think it might still be in Fellowes' plans for the final season.  Especially because he hasn't been trying very hard to make Gillingham nor Blake into fully three-dimensional characters, unlike Matthew, who had separate scenes with his mother, by himself, etc. 

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I didn't think that Isobel was exactly helping in that moment. I love Isobel but I thought she was making the moment even more awkward and it sort of felt like battle lines were forming at the dinner table. Much better to change the subject altogether since it isn't as though anybody was going to be able to change anyone else's mind in that moment. 

 

I thought it was nice though that Isobel gave Sarah a ride home. I just really hate the idea of Isobel encouraging Tom to take up with Sarah and hope that Isobel just doesn't get involved. I know she really likes Tom and wants him to be happy but Sarah freaking Bunting is NOT the person who is going to help do that. Seriously, just no. I'm actually fine with Tom and practically anyone else. Rose, Madeline, Mary, hell, even the unseen Mabel Lane Fox would work for me. Anyone but Sarah.

[DianeDobbler]

 

This is just typical of the every-character-only-has-their-patented-usual-response syndrome that this show has fallen into.

Yeah, like Violet's "witticisms". She has to have one at every gathering, and sometimes it's just painful what they come up with for her, because the given situation is lame, but she needs to weigh in very conspicuously "a la Violet" every single time. Sometimes I wish they wouldn't force it.

[ZulaMay]

I would be seriously pissed off if they put Tom's story and life on hold for two full seasons just to wait on Mary's romantic future.  The last thing Tom needs is a haughty, status-conscious, dyed-in-the-wool Toff with zero interest in progressive causes or the outside world in general.  Mary is the opposite of Sybil, who was more like Rose as someone said.  He needs someone who is not concerned with social status or money.  She doesn't have to be willing to "jump the wall" like Sybil did because Tom is middle-class now and has friends and family in high places.  But someone like Mary?  No.  

 

Mary likes and respects Tom (and vice-versa) but she wouldn't be satisfied with what he brings to the table in terms of status, and that's incredibly unfair to him.  Especially since what was so special about his relationship with Sybil was that she did NOT care abut that stuff and was willing to sacrifice it for him.

 

If they sacrifice Tom on the altar of Mary (which would be like sacrificing Sybil again IMO) just because the writer's well has run dry and he has tanked every other option?  Keeping him around will have been a huge waste and a tragedy (a tragedy on top of tragedy).  Mary could never make him happy. It would not work for either of them.  They really have nothing in common aside from affection for their children/family and their common purpose regarding the estate.  But that is a business and family partnership, not a marital or romantic one.  It's not the same thing.

 

I frankly think they meant it when they said Mary/Tom was not heading in a romantic direction, that it would be "weird" and "inappropriate" (MD has said that) and Tom is now the "Sybil" in the family.  That really would make it weird.  I know some people thought they had chemistry but I don't see her treating him any differently than she treats everyone in the  small circle of people she likes and trusts:  Anna, Carson, her father, Sybil.    I don't see attraction on either side.  

 

I don't think she has much chemistry with Tony, but it is clear MD is TRYING to convey genuine romantic interest.   And I expect to see the same with Blake.  Regardless of the fact that the viewers don't feel that M/M chemistry with either guy, they can still resolve it somehow.  They were never going to tell the exact same story again.  They couldn't if they tried.  

 

You have people (like me) who are not invested in Mary's love life so don't care whom she chooses so long as the story is engaging, and those who DO care and are shipping her with one guy or the other.  Or with Evelyn.  Nothing they do is going to satisfy all the shippers, so they will just have to try to tell a good story.  But sticking her with Tom?  For every viewer who likes or accepts it you'd have another calling foul on it.  It really would make no sense and feel vaguely incestuous at this point.  And given how loudly they have slammed the door on it, I don't think they'd concede defeat by resorting to it in the end.  JF will never admit he's wrong about anything.

Edited September 30, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Tetraneutron]

I'm surprised no one is talking about what a bitch Lady Violet is. Isobel has a chance to marry someone she gets along with and who would be a great partner for her, and Violet's trying to screw her over by setting up Lord Merton with someone else and shoving Isobel at that doctor. Just because she doesn't want Isobel to have a husband, live in a big manor house, and outrank Violet socially. 

 

What really gets me about this subplot is it makes the most popular character (and actor) on the show look horrid. And it makes the aristocracy look like a bunch of mean snobs instead of the benevolent leaders they're usually presented as. 

[ZulaMay]

I know, it made her look really petty and frankly pathetic.  Other people have noted it, just not on this forum.  At least one or two other people.

 

Frankly I think Violet is often a mean-spirited, rude, officiously (and harmfully) meddlesome person.  I've thought that since S1 with the way she treated Isobel and talked about Edith.  She told Matthew Mary was still in love with him....on the eve of his wedding to Lavinia.  Which led directly to that poor girl witnessing her fiancé cheating on her shortly before she died.  And she discouraged Anthony, helping to drive him away and then two weeks later snapping at her devastated granddaughter to "stop whining and find something to do."

 

She had her claws out for Lavinia and said nasty things about her the minute she entered the house, as though she were an interloper who had stolen Matthew from Mary.  She also had her claws out for Sarah the minute she met her.  She was openly snide in the CS when Tom introduced her as the teacher.  A position that should merit respect, not looks of disdain.  She called Tom's brother a "drunken gorilla" even though the guy was NOT acting drunk or being rude.  He was rough around the edges but what do you expect?  He's a working-class mechanic.  All he did was ask for a beer.  That doesn't make him a drunk.

Edited September 30, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Glade]

I agree, Violet has often been very rude and snobbish.  Her venomous confrontation with Cora's mother last season was all about her bitter jealousy that both "Shirley Mclaine" and Isobel, despite being outsiders with modern outlooks, were being courted by aristocrats and could become titled.  Now she is very openly doing whatever she can to try and sour Isobel's prospects with Lord Merton, and in an extremely blunt and obvious manner.  Regardless of whether she has something else to amuse herself with, she needs to mind her own buisness and/or treat Isobel as an actually friend with feelings.

[Eegah]

And so we get the grand return of Why I Hate the Working Class by Julian Fellowes. I almost have to applaud the writing gymnastics that dinner scene went through to try to make us root for the guy defending one of the most pointless and wasteful wars in human history. So it's now clear that Sarah Bunting is going to be Fellowes' strawman for the people who suffer under the thumb of people like Lord Robert, being as much of a jerk as possible about her views just so we might buy that the rich are blameless, holy creatures and we should all return to this society. That should be fun.

[Primetimer]

The schoolteacher shows up at a party and scandalizes Lord G, who will remember that scandal fondly after he learns the true nature of Jimmy's relationship with his cougary former employeress.

Read the story

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Am I the only one, hoping, that Lord Jackass goes for a drive during the next Christmas special?

[LittleIggy]

I think Rose and Tom have chemistry. I can't stand the actress playing Bunting.

[DietCokeJunkie]

Caroline Bingley!

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I think Rose and Tom have chemistry. I can't stand the actress playing Bunting.

Bunting is annoying.

I'm starting to ship Tom and Rose.

[Valny]

Just watched the first ep tonight as it aired on PBS tonight. I don't know if anyonw will remember this, but I NEED someone to confirm what I think I heard.

Did Lady Mary actually say to her parents, "I'm going upstairs and take my hat off? What the hell kind of dialogue is that?! I burst out laughing.  I laughed so much. I don't remember if it was "TO take my hat off, or "AND take my hat off." Either way, it was ridiculous.

Mary also made me laugh when she was talking to Tony and called herself "cold and unfeeling." Ha! Ya think?

 

And I am no big fan of Robert, but I loved his "save the dog! I love Isis the labrador. She is adorable.

 

I couldn't see, what was that picture Edith put under her pillow? Her daughter or her love-ah?

I thought someone was going to find the pic. Guess it got burned.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Valny

[zoey1996]

I couldn't see, what was that picture Edith put under her pillow? Her daughter or her love-a

I thought someone was going to find the pic. Guess it got burned.

It was her daughter as a baby. I had to pause and move closer to the screen to see for sure. I was touched, but I also wondered if it would be found, maybe in the clean-up. Edited January 5, 2015 by zoey1996

[Nire]

I thought Edith might run back in to try to get that picture back.  I hope it's all right and she gets it back.  I suppose she could probably slip in quietly and grab it while everyone is heading back into the house before she goes to sleep in the dressing room. 

 

I feel mixed about this episode.  It was better then some but definitely not as amazing as the first season.  I am really done with Thomas.  I'd have liked for him to move on at least for awhile.  I hope they don't put Rose and Tom together that would feel like too much of Rose literally replacing Sybil and if that's the case why not just replace the actress and keep the character?  I didn't care for Bunting either.

[TaraS1]

Mary's utter contempt for all things Edith will forever be my favorite part of this show. Even Jan Brady never managed to set the family house on fire with her Debbie Downerness.

More George & Sybbie!

Oh and congrats to Elizabeth McGovern for appearing to be fairly lucid during the majority of the episode.

[avecsans]

How in God's name did Edith not happen to notice that the book she just threw in the fire tried to save itself and was burning on the hearth rug? And why was it necessary for the fire brigade to spend time getting all gussied up in their uniforms and shiny helmets instead of hustling up to the house that was on fire?

I am a liberal and I hate the thought of an aristocracy, but man I loathe Sarah Bunting. What a rude cow. And I am sure she will be there to tutor Daisy and get her mitts on Tom.

I squeed when lady anstruth showed up because she was played by Duck Face from 4 weddings and a funeral! Julian fellowes seems to have a thing about sex. Look at all the bad things that happen to people who have sex on this show!

As usual, the clothes were gorgeous.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

In regard to Violet...

She could be trying to jolt Isobel into realizing her feelings for Lord Merton.

Is he the father of that douche that spiked Tom's drink a few seasons back?

[peggy06]

It seemed like more happened in this episode than in all of S4. At least, I can barely remember S4 whereas this moved along quite briskly.

 

Main takeaway was the dinner party scene. I don't know if Sarah Bunting came there with the intention of being rude, or if she was reacting to how rudely she was received by Lord Grantham and even by Tom. ("What are you doing here?" is flat-out accusatory, putting the other person in the wrong, and then he went on to embarrass her by asking, publicly, if "permission" had been given.) Miss Bunting was already leery about the invitation, so I'm sure this didn't improve her feelings toward the Granthams. Nevertheless, I think she was out of line to bring up her objections to the war memorial in that time and place. One, it's not dinner party conversation. Two, it was a family celebration. Three, she knew her reasons and must know it could be insensitive to state them in front of people she doesn't even know, who might have been personally affected by the war. So she was being deliberately controversial, and that's plain rude when you're a guest at a party where you barely know anyone. Of course, Lord Grantham was just as rude, and he is supposed to be the "nobleman." As host of the whole party, he should have turned it off and changed the conversation. But he was on his high ropes because of thinking Bunting and Tom had been up to no good while the family were in London. It's actually right in character for him; he has always been stubborn, obtuse, petty and lacking in noblesse oblige. I'd say he was the worse of the two, because he should have considered the rest of HIS guests.

 

Miss Bunting had to go and thank the cook and servants? Please. The Prince of Wales sent his congrats on the original Upstairs, Downstairs, but Sarah Bunting ain't royalty. Of course she just wanted to prove solidarity, but I imagine the staff would view her as patronizing them.

 

On the War Memorial, I didn't really get why they would ask Carson over Lord Grantham. Carson didn't serve, didn't lose any family. I know they said he knew the men better, but how? He seems pretty stuck at the Abbey, and is pretty snobbish in his own way. I feel this was just to create more drama and more angst for LG.

 

I knew we were going to find out Baxter did time. What else could it have been? It remains to be seen why she did it; I'm guessing it was for the upkeep of a child, given the intent look she gave Anna when Anna said something about a mother's love being the strongest kind of love.

 

Speaking of kids, I feel for Edith and hope something works out that does NOT get Mr. Drewe in hot water at home.

 

Mary surprised me with her comments about the importance of sexual compatibility. I say good for her. Although I'm no fan of Gillingham, and have the same feeling someone else posted that he has a secret, or an angle. Is his family possibly broke? He's doing without a valet, I noticed.

 

Please, please, please, showrunners! Do not bring back the dead valet subplot! I neither know nor care if Bates killed him. Hasn't Anna suffered enough? I was never on the Bates bandwagon, even in S1, but now he basically creeps me out.

 

Last season I thought they were in danger of making the Dowager too cuddly; not so, based on her scheming to divert Lord Merton's attentions to another aristo. That was 100% about social position, and no way is Violet going to let Isobel become the highest-ranking female in the county. Yes, it was mean; yes, she has often been mean. I think it suits the character, and she does play it so well.

Edited January 5, 2015 by peggy06

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Lord Gillingham's walk on music should be The Police's Stalker anthem.

[TVFAN]

Well, I love Tom to pieces, but I still think that Robert is not wrong in being a bit worried that Tom be influenced in the wrong way by Bunting. The integration in the family didn't go completely smoothly and it wasn't all the Crawley's fault. I DO think they were more to blame for the uncomfortable atmosphere at the beginning, but it was not as if Tom was angel who took every blow in subdued silence.

 

He WAS angry and passionate about Ireland and although it was justified, it still was not wise to get defensive and agressive at the dinner table. Tom had more reason to be angry than Sarah Bunting of course and he never was a mean wasp like her who likes to see other's squirm, but the point is that he has matured by now and knows how to handle a discussion better and in a more educated and polite way, without getting angry. I'm not so sure about Robert in that aspect, but Tom definitely is better mannered than he was when he first came back to Downton and I see it as an improvement.

 

I don't think it is fair to see Tom as the white hero and Robert as the dark villain in their relationship. Robert DID let him come back after Tom married Sybil, he DID help him when he turned up at his doorstep after the Ireland incident, he DID let him stay after Sybil died and he DID give him the job as the agent.

It all happened reluctantly and with a lot of prodding of the rest of the family, but the thing is that Robert is not a monster. He is a butthead sometimes, but he has a good heart within IMO and I like it that Tom sees that.  It reflects well on Tom and is proof that he does indeed see the people and not the "type".

 

Also I think that Tom see a father figure in Robert and wants his approval. It's again a proof that Tom is a very nice person, because he could have blamed Robert for his behaviour in the night Sybil died or he could have blamed Robert for the lack of feeling he first showed for his granddaughter. But Tom doesn't reject Robert, in the contrary, he wants to live with him peacefully. On the other side I think Robert wants the same now for him and Tom. He doesn't want him to leave, he respects him and likes him. He knows they will never look eye to eye on many things, but I think as a person Robert is very fond of Tom now and wouldn't want to lose him.

I love the relationship that has developed between Tom and Robert.  Tom's mother has been mentioned, but I don't recall any mention of his father.  I wholeheartedly agree that Tom sees Robert as a father figure.  But I'll take it a step further and say that Robert views Tom as a son.  Thanks to the infamous bar of soap, Robert never got to experience parenting a son.  Matthew started to fill that role, and in many ways, he was the "golden boy" eldest son.  Tom was the rebellious younger son who has surprised the family by turning out to be rock solid.  When Tom married Sybil, Robert accepted/tolerated him for Sybil's sake, and that was probably all he ever intended to do.  But as time passed, he grew to love Tom and Tom grew to love him.  Love of all kinds has a way of sneaking up on you!

 

BTW, Tom saving both Sybbie and George from the fire and helping Robert put it out was just all kinds of wonderful.  He IS the son of the family.  And I honestly don't see him entering into a romantic relationship with Mary or Edith.  In their minds, he has become a brother.

 

That horrible Bunting woman came to the party spoiling for a fight.  And I don't see the slightest spark of attraction to her on Tom's part.

[Crs97]

Edith really is a sad sack, and I was bothered by how she was all over Marigold and completely ignoring the other children. If I were pig man's wife I would be creeped out by her, too, and I would then be especially pissed if I told my hubby she was after him and he reacted by figuring out a way to get her more involved in our family's life.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Fellowes seems to love heaping constant misery on Edith.

[Isisnin]

Robert jarred me back into the twenty-first century when he called Bunting a hater.  I've been reading another forum whose members are talking about how people called anyone who critiques them on FB "haters".  I thought it was a twentieth century word and looked up it's epidemiology on Wikipedia which does say its from the early 2000s.

 

Downton has an Edwardian manners coach.  They need a language coach!

 

I can't stand Bunting or Thomas either.  A season or two ago, it seemed he was going to evolve and I began to like him and root for him, but now I'm hoping someone pushes him off the balcony when he's lurking upstairs.  Better yet, he just trips on the carpet and goes over for an ignoble parting form this world.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Will Lestat Barrow stop terrorizing Baxter, now that the truth is out?

[Amelie06]

During the season of death, I decided that Downton couldn't be watched live.  I liked my DVR fast forwarding options. I'm now at the point that if I see just Anna and Bates in a scene, I immediately hit the ff button...and we're off.  I can't take it.  Why do we have sit through more blah blah about that rapey valet? No one cares about him. I still hate the fact that Julian Fellows decided to write a rape story and make it all about how the victim's husband feels.  I find that appalling.  His feelings certainly have a part in the story, but the continued focus on Bates and his manpain irks me to no end.

 

I know this is kind of weird, but I'm going to miss Jimmy.  I know he was useless. I know that he was a 1920s servant version of a frat boy, but he is so cute! I also liked the friendship that had developed between Jimmy and Thomas.  I have to admit that Jimmy won me over when he was able to get past his homophobia or whatever you want to call his freakout when he realized that Thomas had feelings for him.  I like that Thomas didn't pretend that he was suddenly straight. He even made a comment about it in this episode.  Anyway, I'm sad to see Jimmy go. Especially  since he was basically stalked by a much older and more powerful woman.  If a man sent repeated letters to a young woman, insisting on continuing a relationship, and then showed up at her house, most of us would be horrified on her behalf. 

 

I hate Robert. He is just such a douche.  I can't really comment on the dinner scene as a I skipped most of it.  I can't deal with this Bunting woman and all of her opinions.

 

I'm convinced that Rose is high all the time.  She just seems a little out of it, always smiling even when it isn't necessary. 

 

What is there to say about poor Lady Edith? I feel for her.  Full disclosure, I think I'm definitely more of an Edith than I am a Mary.  It may be influencing how I see her story.  Anyway, she is clearly going to be caught.  Her sudden and inexplicable interest in a farmer's adopted daughter is too strange. Surely, someone is going to notice! That fire was strange and hilarious.  Of course Edith didn't notice that she had just set her room on fire. If they keep pushing her, I could see Edith just going from room to room, murdering everyone.

 

Overall, I'm a bit put off by how boring all the stories are right now.  There is nothing that we haven't seen before and I wish something new would happen.  I can't take another season of Tom looking sad and changing his mind about the direction of his whole damn life, merely based on the outlook of the last person he spoke to.  He is oddly malleable.

 

Real talk? I find Gillingham to be strangely attractive.  Mary needs to take him up on his offer and get down on it. That being said, she probably shouldn't marry him.  There is something about that guy that I just don't trust.  He also comes on kind of strong, knowing that Mary isn't in 100%.  Strange how a cold, aging woman with a kid constantly has men dying to marry her.  She just has to turn it away, she gets so many offers.  This is despite the fact that most of the boys their age are dead and Edith has had to settle for much older men who always end up leaving her.  Odd that.  Does anyone think that Mary must be based on a real woman that Julian Fellows loved when he was young? That can be the only explanation as to why such an odious character gets treated like she is Venus.

[helenamonster]

I feel for Edith, I really really do. She's in an impossible situation. But bringing Marigold (a name I am of two minds about; on one hand it's beautiful but on the other it's too close to Mary for a daughter of Edith's) back to Downton was so fucking dumb and of course she's going to get herself into a pickle over it. I mean, if your daughter is literally right down the street, you're not going to be able to resist visiting her. I realize that was the point of bringing her back, but ach. The last thing Edith needs is to get into more married-man related trouble. Because honestly, what is Mrs. Drewe supposed to think? This lady who has never shown a drop of interest in our family before suddenly swoops in when we adopt this little nugget, completely ignores our other children, and makes googly eyes at my husband...nothing unseemly going on here. I predict she'll figure out the child is Edith's, but will think Mr. Drewe is the father. Also, can we talk about how Hot Farmer Drewe is also Hot Fireman Drewe? Le yum.

 

Good for Daisy for trying to better herself in mathematics, and feh on Carson for basically saying she's too dumb to understand it anyway so why bother? Daisy isn't going to learn shit if that's the kind of attitude she's absorbing in her environment.

 

Gotta laugh at Molesley and everyone commenting on his hair throughout the episode. He does bring the much-needed funny.

 

Sarah and Robert were definitely tying for Asshole of the Episode with their childish spat at dinner, but I think Sarah ended up coming off worse in the end. Yes, she came to the house as a guest invited under uncomfortable circumstances, but she still entered the house with prejudice. She was quite rude with her remarks at dinner (whether one agrees with them or not), but Robert, as an aristocratic host, should have politely changed the subject instead of engaging her. But where Sarah lost out was when she insisted on going downstairs to thank the staff (like they give a flippity flying fuck what you think about work they can do with their eyes closed at this point) not out of the kindness of her heart but to prove a point. Her "thanks" was insincere at best, and she would have been better served by slipping out unnoticed.

 

Part of me wants Isobel to end up with Lord Merton and stick it to Violet, but the other part just loves Dr. Clarkson and thinks he would be a better match. I am 1000000% more invested in this love triangle than Mary's. By the way, did they pretty much reveal who she was going to pick? Tom Cullen (Gillingham) has been added to the opening credits but Julian Ovenden (Blake) has not, unless I missed it. Hmm.

 

Just saying, but Cora sacking Baxter because she's a) a thief and b) a convicted felon would be the height of hypocrisy when Thomas and Bates are still employed.

 

Speaking of Bates...oh Bates. I used to like him. I really really did. And I used to think he and Anna were teh sparkly. But...I can't anymore. And it sucks because Anna is tied to him in unholy matrimony and she's my favorite character and she just doesn't deserve this shit. We better not be in for a season of Bates browbeating Anna into renting out her uterus for nine months to his potentially murderous spawn. Your body, your choice, Anna! That little conversation they had was just tinged with creepy. The way it was played made it seem like it was a conversation they had been having on and off for a while and Anna just looked so uncomfortable. Her lack of POV is so maddening, mostly because I love her but also because a story that should have been all about her turned to shit so fast and the fact that she was marginalized in her own rape is super irritating. Take your cute new hairdo and peace outta that marriage, my love. #JusticeForAnna2K15

 

Oh Jimmy. Too bad, so sad. Maybe go seek out Ivy in the US? I will miss the friendship he and Thomas were just starting to cultivate in this episode, though.

 

Lol, when Carson said something to Mrs. Hughes to the effect of "People don't have to know everything," I thought, "But Mrs. Hughes does know everything. I guess except about Edith and Marigold." And then, whattaya know, she overhears the conversation between Edith and Hot Fireman (!) Drewe. Mrs. Hughes knows all and sees all.

 

"Lady Edith decided to burn down her room." It's lines like that that simultaneously make me want to high-five Mary and clock her across the face.

 

The Crawley girls make some beautiful babies. Lol at Sybbie and "Donk." I'll probs be referring to Robert as that from now on, at least until he stops being a doofus. So, yeah, from now on.

[Greta]

I am really, really enjoying my passionate hatred of that Bunting cow. I don't think she is progressive or enlightened at all in what passes for her soul; her "ideas" are just the mechanism she uses to be as vicious and condescending as possible at every opportunity to anyone who falls into her line of sight. If the dinner guests had been lamenting the waste of the war, she would have been right there snidely bitching on about the poor lost boys and how she was clearly the only one enlightened enough to care about it.  Cora was actually awesome in just deflecting her with sugary politeness and then letting her show her Bunting ass to the servants who had to hold up their dinner.

 

I hope the villagers fall upon her with pitchforks because she's probably as bad a teacher as she is a human being and as she is driven from the village, the pigs trample over her, and then lo and behold here come the police to arrest her for the valet's murder, for which she is framed by Thomas after he hears a smarmy attempt to play mommy to Sybbie.  Also, I think she smells.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Greta

[izabella]

That horrible Bunting woman came to the party spoiling for a fight.  And I don't see the slightest spark of attraction to her on Tom's part.

 

I'm horribly afraid that they're going to cram Bunting into every episode trying to make Tom/Bunting into a romance.  Ick.

 

I'm also sick of Mary's boring suitors.  If there is going to always be this focus on Mary's irresistible charms, at least give us more interesting men.  

 

And Edith needs to get over it.  Either claim your daughter and move to America with her or something, or let her go, but stop playing games that are only going to end up confusing or hurting the girl.

[jadecorleone]

Poor Pharoah! I sort of like the idea that they would all think it's somehow the same dog, never aging even though it's, like, 25 years old.

 

Also, Lady Carnavon should should be thanking her lucky stars that this show even exists and Downton tourism/production pays Highclere bills as it does and stop being such a handful. 

 

Is it wrong that I just call Drewe "Pig Man"? And that I think Edith should just have herself some Pig Man, who is very kind and seems to care about her feelings in a way none of her blood relations ever have?

 

Sybil was lovely and everything, but she's gone. So get Tom a decent love interest already. 

I remember watching a special somewhere about Highclere and it made it sound like before the show, the castle was falling apart big time and they were unsure if they would ever be able to afford to fix it. Also makes me wonder if they were in danger of losing it. If so they should be thanking every deity they can imagine for the show. Ive also heard you can have weddings there but it costs about 20,000

 

As far as tonights episode, I was spoiled a head of time ( I followed on twitter with the initial airings) but that dinner scene was beyond awkward. I have to agree with the previous posters who said that both Bunting and Robert were at fault. Yes they do have every right to their opinion but their is a time and place and someones anniversary dinner in not the place. Id have booted Bunting out and told Robert to go take a walk

[Lillybee]

I love the fact that Daisy is trying to improve herself by learning math but I do wish that someone would point out to her that by being a good cook, she already has a grasp of fractions,

[DeepRunner]

Now that the show has come to the US side of the Atlantic, what I liked for S5 e1:

 

* Rose was OK. At least not annoying like in S4

 

* Sybbie calling Robert "Donk"

 

* Cora seemed to have a brain and a spine...for most of the episode (see below for the fail)

 

* This episode, for just a bit, it seemed like Fellowes was holding the snobbery of the Blue Noses up for ridicule. Especially Spratt, who after all, is only a butler, and had to be called on his behavior by Violet. Need more of that.

 

What I didn't like:

 

* The dialogue was incredibly stilted

 

* Barrow. Come on, Fellowes. You can let him go. Most won't miss him

 

* Cora threatening Barrow with his job, only to come out in her loopy, dopey, American sappiness to be ever. so. grateful to him for saving Edith's life. (TPTB seem to have a real jones for making sure Cora doesn't look TOO smart. They must forget often that the Yankee dollars of this American Buccaneer saved the lifestyle that Downton Abbey celebrates. Indeed, even Violet commented on Cora's...um...acumen)

 

* How did the fire start again? And how did Edith not notice?

 

* Gillingham's "Indecent Proposal" to Mary. Ya know, Mary, if you want to "sample the menu," in the parlance, you shouldn't be surprised when someone offers, "Take One. Free."

 

Overall, a really "meh" season opener. 

[Llywela]

* How did the fire start again? And how did Edith not notice?

She threw the book at the wall, so she thought, and then collapsed into her pillow sobbing. That was why she didn't notice that her sucky aim had caused the book to bounce into the fire - she had her face buried in her pillow, crying herself to sleep.

[crocosmia]

I love the Downton Abbey soap opera, but  the scenes that have that Bunting harpy in them are annoying.   She's a cartoon character, one-dimensional and not even deep enough for me to love to hate her.   I have a feeling we're going to see way too much of her bad manners this season.    I'll bet she's a mean-spirited teacher, too.

 

I don't like Rose.   She's a buttinsky and not all that bright.

 

On the other hand, I do still enjoy watching Violet and all her manipulative meddling.   She's a snooty aristocrat with all the best zingers of the plot's dialogue, but I imagine that's the demeanor she's cultivated over her long life to keep herself from being bored silly as a woman of her position in Victorian/Edwardian England.

 

Mary's suitors are all so similar that it's hard to remember which is which.   I think Tony is kind of cute, but he's boring.   Mary needs to get interested in a man who isn't always groveling at her feet, someone who is attractive and smart and isn't all that interested in her position and irresistible self.   It would be fun to watch Mary attempting to maintain her icy facade while trying to win some offbeat charmer's favor for a change.    

 

Edith.  Oh, dear.   Her storyline is going to lead to more grief.   I agree that the fireman guy is a hottie, but he has a wife, and Edith has already made a mess of her life with her previous married-man affair.   C'mon, Mr. Fellowes, think of something new for her.   

 

I like Robert.    He's rooted in a way of life that he was born into, and he can be stubborn and short-sighted, but I think he's basically a decent fellow.

 

I like Tom, too, and am touched by the development of his relationship with Robert, one of the few on the show that has actually seemed almost natural in the way the two have grown to appreciate each other.   I hope that Tom doesn't end up with Rose or Bunting.   Rose is too immature and Bunting is too mean for him.

 

Thomas can go at any time.   His story lines have become monotonous.  

 

Bates was likable when he first appeared.   Now he's just creepy.    

 

I like almost every scene with the "downstairs" people, except for the ones with Thomas in them. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

I think Rose and Tom have chemistry.

 

 

Thought I caught a spark between those 2.  But Rose is a gal who could spark with a tree.

 

Why did Spratt diss the doc?

 

Man, dat Gillingham is a sure cure for insomnia.  Good luck with dat guy, Mare.  Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

Hey, Liz McGovern, you're never to old to take acting lessons.  Wise advice to take to heart, hun -- now go immediately, cuz sheesh, you really suck as an actress.

 

Mr Pig Man can put out my fire anytime.

 

No more Jimmy?  For reals?  Oh Robert-the-moron/Donk, don't you know we need him for eye candy?

 

Did Bates get death stare lessons from Angelina Jolie?  OK, we get it, Bates.  Ya got a hot temper & you kill people willy-nilly.  But do you have to do those death stares all da freakin' time -- even when you're drinkin' coffee at breakfast with Anna?  Chillax & put on a poker face, will ya, Bates?

 

Guess I'm alone here, but I thought Moseley looked better with colored hair.

[pasdetrois]

 

This episode just reminded me of how past its prime this show is.  It's gotten so repetitive and cliche that it feels like a satire of its former self.  The characters, in particular, have become so one-dimensional that I can't recognize the characters that were developed in the first two seasons.  However, I suspect I'll keep watching it out of fondness for its past glory

I get so annoyed when writers and show runners insult their viewers. In this episode we had at least a dozen ham-handed references to how times are changing and the English class system is threatened. We get it (plus many of us already know this). Then there was Thomas skulking about, emerging every few minutes to hiss threats to poor Baxter. I thought they were going to humanize Thomas but nope he's going to continue as Snidely Whiplash. And dear god spare us the Bates/Anna rapey drama; I can't stand the actor who plays Bates, having seen him in other BBC productions, and the storyline is atrocious.

 

By the time poor Edith flung her book at the fire and collapsed sobbing into the bedclothes as the book lay burning I was hooting with laughter. Then right on time in came the heroic manservant to rescue her. I guess she didn't notice the extreme heat and raging flames before the smoke overcame her. And Spratt being willfully rude to Violet's guests would never happen - twice.

 

I did give a little hurrah for Robert when he shouted "save the dog!"

 

This rich storytelling universe has just been run into the ground. I'll have to content myself with Violet's bon mots and admiring the beautiful fashions and scenery.

 

The Washington Post's travel section reports that Highclere is overrun with paying tourists and left the impression that the estate has been saved from ruin. I don't remember the details but it was in dire straits. The family retreats to a four-bedroom "cottage" on the estate during tourist season.

Edited January 5, 2015 by pasdetrois