S05.E01: Episode One

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Local plans for a war memorial see Carson pitted against Robert and Mrs Hughes. Jimmy receives some female attention that causes him major problems. Baxter is issued with an ultimatum. Tom's burgeoning friendship with Sarah Dunning causes Robert concern. Mary feels ready to try and find love again. Edith and Drewe’s special arrangement starts to crumble as she increasingly finds it hard to keep her emotions in check resulting in some disastrous consequences for everyone.

[ZulaMay]

I laughed when Robert was toasting Cora and said she had "beauty, brains, a heart and a conscience."  Yeah.....maybe not the second one.  But then she's a rocket scientist compared to him.

 

I can't even get into the dinner scene because yes, Bunting is a mouthy pain in the arse but she and Tom are entitled to their opinions.  Robert was rude to shut them down like that.  Now, the comment she made about the memorial committee not choosing him?!  Ouch!  What a snide bitch!!  But I don't get why Tom didn't apologize to Robert for THAT instead of apologizing for arguing with him at dinner.  What is he, a kid who has to be seen but not heard?  Jesus.

 

Tom is just the soul of patience with Robert, I swear.  I don't know how he doesn't just lose it with him.

 

The Baxter stuff dragged out for the entire episode and seriously, I didn't care.  Yet another theft/prison storyline (Bates in S1?).  I think Thomas must have backed her into a corner five times and was practically sprouting fangs at the end.  Thank God that's finally over.

 

I loved Thomas and Jimmy together though, but now Jimmy's getting sacked because we can't have nice things.

 

Edith's scenes with Drewe were moving, of course.  The fire was actually not as dramatic as I expected.  I thought Mary would be screaming at her instead of just wisecracking that she did it on purpose.

 

The scene between Mary and Tony in her bedroom? Weirdly stilted.  They both stood stiff-straight and recited their lines:  "But, Tony, whatever are you doing here?!"  IDK, it felt like they didn't quite know how to play the scene.

Edited September 21, 2014 by ZulaMay

[ZulaMay]

Yes, she was rude to Rose's friend but Robert didn't see that.  And I agree she was being deliberately contentious but I still don't think it's the right response to tell her that she is not ALLOWED an opinion.  Like Cora said, don't answer rudeness with rudeness.  He shouldn't have let her get to him like that because he lost control of himself.  You could see in the library how agitated he was.

 

It bothers me mostly that he shut down Tom, because Tom wasn't being rude.  He was offering an honest and valid opinion.  The fact that he happened to agree with Sarah doesn't mean he was also being rude along with her. He shouldn't have to apologize for "arguing" because HE was not being obnoxious.  If he was going to apologize, he should have done it on her behalf and not his own.  He didn't do anything wrong at all.  Also, Robert said she was "Tom's guest" and so he had to answer for her opinions, or something?  But she wasn't Tom's guest.  Rose invited her and she told Robert that herself.

 

Basically, it felt like Tom was apologizing for disagreeing with him.  He shouldn't have to do that.  Whatever Violet said about opinions being out of place at the dinner table, she doesn't stick to that rule and frankly neither does Robert.  I seem to recall him bringing Travis to dinner to insult Tom's religion and argue with him about Sybbie's baptism....right after his wife died.  He has no right to call Tom out as a "hater" given his behavior  toward him in the past.

 

He's being a hypocrite.

Edited September 21, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Featherhat]

The thing with Sarah Bunting is that she chose to accept an invitation and went there with the deliberate intention of being as rude and snide as possible to her hosts and their guests. She doesn't have to like the system or kiss arse but she's as judgemental and rude as the worst she imagines about the Crawleys and has been since minute 1, if she had been more civil she could have made her points much better. Likewise *demanding* to go and congratulate the staff without so much as a "please" was cringy - this is someone's home and she would have been furious if Cora had barged into hers. I agree that I don't see why it was such a "Tom" issue, except that I guess Robert unfortunately defaults to Branson as the semi tame rebel whenever he meets someone not a landed Tory at his table. I guess its just to establish further series long conflict.

 

Thomas is the luckiest SOB ever. He's stolen, blackmailed, sexually assaulted his way around Downton for well over  15 years now and gets forgiven for everything. everyone else on the show is far more loyal to him then he is to them.

 

Yeah love triangle holding patterns despite large amounts of time passing, business as usual for Downton. I was annoyed by the entire storyline last season but I thought Mary was better here comparatively, but still not feeling it with either guy and I often like Mary but she's not so awesome that one of these guys couldn't have found dozens of beautiful, witty, heiresses when there were hundreds of thousands of women who were going spare.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Featherhat

[ZulaMay]

I'm not defending Bunting, believe me.  She is ill-mannered as Hell.   But Robert was the host and he was in the wrong too.  Yes, it's hard to finesse a conversation with someone like her but isn't that what good breeding is supposed to instill?  Instead he lost his temper and ended up taking it out on Tom who was blameless.  Especialy since it was ROSE who invited her and he knew that!  Like you said, when he hears anything non-Tory his mind automatically goes to Tom.  And just like Sarah HE assumes the worst possible, throwing around words like "hater" which is completely untrue and unfair.

[Dust Bunny]

You can have a strong, differing opinion and still be gracious. I found myself nodding to what Robert was saying, and I'm as "revolutionary" as they come, at least in relation to this show. Sybil struck that balanced chord so nicely. Tom does a bit too. It wavers a little, but that's really authentic and true to his feelings of one foot in/one foot out.

 

How is Isis still alive? Is this Isis 4.0? I hope my pets always are as resilient and long-lived as that dog.

 

I'm getting a little tired of Carson. His judgment on Daisy was almost mean-spirited. She should head to the farm asap and not look back.

[Dust Bunny]

 

Isis joined the home in series two, which was 1914 I believe. She wasn't a puppy, but I can't wager to guess her age. At the least, she'd be ten - is that unusual an age for a dog to achieve?

 

Oh, it seemed longer than that. My bad.

[panthergirl13]

Is Mary forgetting that Anna was there for the Mr. Pamook situation? Why is she putting on this whole "Oh, how I wish ladies could give their men a test drive..." act?

 

And it might be time for Isis to change her name. Just sayin'. 

[z couch cat]

Ok, Cora is dumb, but we already knew that, even though she has become even dumber during the summer break. Mary wants to indulge herself in extracurricular activities, really show? How is that even possible? And that teacher woman was just beyond rude and ill-mannered. The rest was ok, but not that exciting as I thought it would be.

[CofCinci]

I can't stand Miss Bunting and even if she teaches Daisy all the math in the world, I'm still not going to like the woman.

[bybrandy]

Edith, Edith, Edith. I totally get her wanting to be with her daughter but seriously how much more of sad sack Edith do I have to take?

And seriously, that wife not working out that Edith was the mother? I mean she saw the interest Edith took in just that one child.

Violet is evil but I continue to love her. She had a great line at dinner.

Still, I think we haven't seen the last of the lord and his intentions towards Mrs. Crowley.

Like Daisy trying to better herself.

Could care less about Mary's love life and actively dislike Tom's intenteded. I love a revolutionary, really. But I just haven't warmed to her in the least

Mosley... as much of a sad sack as Edith.

Anna and Bates. I seriously, seriously, seriously wish I could take back shipping them in series one because Bates is such a drag on the show. He kills people, everybody worries about it, then in the end nobody cares. I didn't care last time. Much less this time. How does he have a second murder story? Really? Really?

Him trying to raise Anna's rape baby? A better storyline. Although, I suspect Anna is taking steps not to conceive now? Maybe because she knows her husband is an unrepentant murder and she worries what will happen should their own child not make top marks at the village school?

Don't care about the footman and his former employer.

Glad Thomas saved Edith, but I might not be if she sad sacks around for another whole season.

I thought they missed an ample opportunity to kill Lord Grantham. I thought they should have done it last year and I really, really think they should do it this year. But they probably won't. Because watching him have a pity party over the times changing is so much more fun for nobody.

Love that Sibbey calls him Donk. LOLS.

Lady Mary going for a bit of premarital bliss would have been more shocking had it not happened in the very first episode. Was that the first episode?

[CofCinci]

Lady Mary going for a bit of premarital bliss would have been more shocking had it not happened in the very first episode. Was that the first episode?

Third episode.

[ZulaMay]

bybrandy, I think Mrs. Drewe is about to figure out that Edith is the mother.  Note that while Edith had Marigold on her lap she was saying "oh, we don't know where she got her coloring from.....of course I never knew her mother."  Then later Drewe tells Edith his wife thinks she keeps visiting because she has a a crush on him....and Mrs. Hughes sees Edith go to thank Fireman Drewe (how hilariously convenient) after the fire.

 

Yeah, pretty soon someone is going to be thinking "Edith + Drewe = Love Child."

 

I am totally on board with you about Anna and Bates.  I never shipped them exactly but I supported them.  Now I wish him gone....and Robert with him.  Because I am with you on that too:  his pity party is a drag and wholly unsympathetic.  "Boo-hoo, it's so hard to be a Rich English Lord in a time when everyone isn't 100% kissing my ass anymore." 

 

And then Carson totally enables him by making sure he gets the position even though everyone in charge thought Carson deserved it on merit and not title.  But that's Carson for you.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind Robert, Carson and Bates taking each other out via mutual suicide pact....mutually unable to keep up with the changing times.

[Eolivet]

Is Mary forgetting that Anna was there for the Mr. Pamook situation? Why is she putting on this whole "Oh, how I wish ladies could give their men a test drive..." act?

 

And it might be time for Isis to change her name. Just sayin'. 

 

HA! Poor Isis.

 

But I think it's a much different situation for Mary. She never intended to lose her virginity to Pamuk (and by today's standards, she was raped). This is Mary taking control of her sexuality and making the choice to engage in those kinds of relations outside marriage. Huge difference. Both are "scandalous," but if the first situation was humiliating, this one is empowering.

 

"Lady Edith chose to set fire to her room " will never not be funny.

[kieyra]

I commend all of you who can even track these plotlines and names from last season. And dear God they just refuse to let loose of any trope that they think works.

It's like all of these characters are trapped in some Stephen King version of Groundhog Day, because they don't even know it's happening.

Edited September 22, 2014 by kieyra

[Avaleigh]

"If you can both tear yourselves away from your smutty deliberations for a moment." I totally LOL. Never change, Carson, never change.

 

I enjoyed the episode. My only real problem was with one-note Thomas. Seriously, how many times has he had a variation of the conversation where he threatens Baxter? It has to be over a dozen easily, no joke.

 

Thomas is the luckiest SOB ever. He's stolen, blackmailed, sexually assaulted his way around Downton for well over  15 years now and gets forgiven for everything. everyone else on the show is far more loyal to him then he is to them.

I can't stand the fact that Thomas still has a job at Downton. He is just the worst.

 

Loved Violet's line about how she hopes that Isobel was referring to companionship. The facial expressions on Isobel's face during that scene were hilarious. I hope she ends up with Lord Merton only because I know it will irritate Violet. 

 

Love that Sibbey calls him Donk. LOLS.

Probably my favorite bit in the episode. Hee, I so hope it sticks.

 

Is Mary forgetting that Anna was there for the Mr. Pamook situation? Why is she putting on this whole "Oh, how I wish ladies could give their men a test drive..." act?

I thought Mary was basically just acknowledging that society still expected ladies to not have sex out of wedlock rather than suggesting that she's not the type to ever do anything like that. The one time Mary took a guy out for a test drive she had to pay huge consequences so to Mary IMO it isn't necessarily about sex not being an option so much as it's about it being a potentially risky option because of society's expectations. Another thing was that Mary seemed surprised that a lady she knows was talking about sex frankly and openly and I don't think that's something that Mary is used to doing. I don't think something like the occasional conversation such as the one she had with Robert where they briefly talk about Thomas's sexuality really counts.

 

Re: the boring murder mystery--Gillingham did creep me out a bit and the moment with Bates was weird. I don't really care who did it, I just know I'm not all that interested in seeing Mary with this guy. I rolled my eyes when he made the comment about a nightmarish life being one without Mary and Mary is one of my favorite characters. It still feels forced and if Gillingham is the end game I think it's troubling that he doesn't seem to be working after a full season of exploring the possibility of the pairing.

 

The entire thing with Edith was sad and I felt bad when I considered that Marigold is losing out on the cousin bonding that Sybbie and George are getting.

[Andorra]

I liked the episode very much. A good mixture between fun and excitement.

 

I thought Edith and Marigold was a bit heartbreaking and it is clear things will get very difficult there. I like Mr. Drewe but I fear the worst for him! Because if something is going to happen to him, his wife won't be so keen on having Edith around their daughter all the time. And now Mr. Drewe is a fireman?! I see DRAMA!!

 

I LOVED Tom and Rose. I've given up on "Trosy" pretty much at the end of series 4, since it was said that Lily will leave, but seeing them, I think it is a PITY! They had such a nice spark. The way they smiled at each other now and then and the way she wants him to be happy. I love that girl. She's thoughtless a lot of times, but she's so genuinely friendly! And now that Lily James has denied that she is leaving, I'm getting a bit on the "Trosy" board again. The glances between them? There could be something in the bushes!

 

That takes me to Tom. I loved his "I don't hate anyone". That is so genuinely Tom. He is a good man, a nice man. He is the one apologizing for causing awkwardness. He is not apologizing for his views, but he knows it was the anniversary dinner for Robert and Cora and he felt sorry that he made the dinner uncomfortable. Even though it wasn't HIS fault at all! It were Bunting and Robert the two buttheads, who misbehave and NOT Tom. And yet he is the one apologizing.

I'm sorry, I know Bunting is forward thinking and modern and I agree with her on many things, but I have to go with Robert and say: Must she be such a cow about it?

 

The war was only 6 years ago. She's sitting at a table with people who lost their sons to it or who fought there themselves and she just calls their sacrifice meaningless and a "waste"? Even though she is historically right, this is an incredibly tactless and rude thing to say IMO. And unnecessary. What business is it of hers if they want to build a memorial for the soldiers who died?

 

Robert on the other hand isn't much better. OK, he's already pissed that she is there in the first place, because he thinks Tom slept with her in the house while they were in London. Maybe he is even feeling mad in behalf of Sybil. But still he can't just jump into a guest's face like that. It wasn't just her causing awkwardness, it was him, too.

 

But then her comment about Robert was really nasty. That wasn't just a political disagreement, that was personal and I felt bad for Robert. As was her comment to Rose's friend. She only wanted to be friendly and Sarah was incredibly rude.

 

Then she demanded to see the servants, which I thought hilarious. Come on! If you're in a hotel, you go down to the cook and thank him personally for dinner, too? A bit too demonstrative "Oh I'm so progressive and I'm the only one who thinks of the poor creatures who work downstairs". Also when she WAS downstairs, it seemed to be a bit awkward, too.

 

What I absolutely loved in the episode was the friendship between Thomas and Jimmy. Thomas was so evil and mean to Baxter and so lovely to Jimmy. I can't wait how his character will evolve this series, I think it will be one of the most interesting storylines.

 

The rest of the storylines didn't impress me much. Daisy and her wish to learn Mathematics: Well, it's pretty much clear who will come to her rescue. So no big suspense there. Bates and Anna are talking about children, snore. The same goes for Gillingham and Mary. I'm just not interested in Mary's love life, sorry. I like Gillingham well enough, but there's no spark for me. I thought Mary's interactions with the family or Anna were more interesting than the supposed "love story".

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Possibly the best moment of the episode was Sybbie coming in and calling Robert "Donk."

 

I am so tired of Evil Barrow twirling his moustache. I just want him to go away. I wanted to high five Moseley and Baxter for foiling his plans and Cora for telling him she would have to consider whether to keep him after he recommended someone who he knew was a thief, kept it a secret, and then only spilled the beans to be a dick. Then of course she had to go and ruin it by saying, "You saved Edith! Never mind what I said before!" Ugh. But I did love that she was so persistently cheerful and polite to the rude teacher. We were so delighted (that you came to our dinner and made everyone feel uncomfortable!). Of course you can go downstairs (and interrupt the servants' dinner so you can feel like you're better than my husband)!

 

Both the teacher and Robert were obnoxious and I guess it's a toss up as to who was worse since the rules of courtesy say that both hosts and guests should be polite. They were both being assholes so let's just say it was a tie! It annoyed me later when Robert told Tom how far he's come. Not everyone aspires to move up the social ladder. As much as Tom loves Sybbie and likes Mary and enjoys his current job, I don't think that marrying into the family has made him a better person but of course all Robert can see is that now Tom isn't "just" a chauffeur.

 

I must have blocked out a bunch of last season because i was surprised that Barrow was being so friendly with Jimmy. I kept thinking that he was just pretending to be nice so he could get into and then get him in trouble. Wouldn't you know that one of the few times that he was actually being helpful, the recipient of his kindness ends up getting in trouble anyway?

 

I really love that Daisy is thinking about her future and trying to take steps towards being prepared for a life of something besides cooking. Not that there's anything wrong with cooking, but I like that she is being honest in her self assessment (she's rubbish at numbers) and trying to address it now. I don't know why Carson was so against it. Heaven forbid the servants learn how to add and subtract.
 

Edited September 22, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Andorra]

 

But I did love that she was so persistently cheerful and polite to the rude teacher. We were so delighted (that you came to our dinner and made everyone feel uncomfortable!). Of course you can go downstairs (and interrupt the servants' dinner so you can feel like your better than my husband)!

 

That was hilarious! How Cora smiled so friendly at Bunting. I loved it!!

 

 

I must have blocked out a bunch of last season because i was surprised that Barrow was being so friendly with Jimmy. I kept thinking that he was just pretending to be nice so he could get into and then get him in trouble. Wouldn't you know that one of the few times that he was actually being helpful, the recipient of his kindness ends up getting in trouble anyway?

 

Thomas and Jimmy are friends since Thomas got beaten up at the fair, when he rescued Jimmy in the Season 3 Christmas special. In series 4 we didn't see much of the friendship, but at least a few occasions where Thomas was supportive of Jimmy (when Jimmy hurt his hand, a few times where they shared a joke, they talked about Jimmy and Ivy and Thomas told Jimmy before he went to America with Lord Grantham, that he wants Jimmy "happy and courting a girl from the village" when he comes back).

[Helena Dax]

The drama in this show rarely works for me anymore but the comedy... It's still pure gold: Molesley's hair, lady Violet, Carson and his "smutty deliberations"... I like the friendship between Jimmy and Thomas too.

 

Was the lady who wanted to bang Jimmy the original Duckface?

[darkestboy]

It was pretty decent, better than most of Series 4 but the fire wasn't onscreen long enough to make a real impact though.

Mary and Tony are also pretty forced as well. Something is seriously off with those two.

Poor Edith. Hopefully she does get her daughter back soon.

I did like the Robert, Tom and Bunting stuff more than I thought I would. Cora was a good mediator and Rose is fun enough as a character I guess.

Daisy thinking about her future is the first good thing she's done in a while really.

Jimmy and the previous employer - meh, but I did like the banter with him and Thomas though.

Baxter's secret was a little better than expected, but there's clearly more than she's told Cora about as well.

Nice one liners between Violet and Isobel as usual. Overall decent episode, 7/10
 

[NorthstarATL]

I see where they are going with the Daisy storyline, but why couldn't Mrs. Patmore point out that there is no way that Daisy could be doing what she's been doing for as long as she has and NOT be somehwat adept at math? She must also have at least assisted in the ordering. It would be more difficult, IMO, for someone like Bunting, rather than Daisy, to take over a farm, because Daisy has experience in practical application.

   The line that made me chuckle was Mary having to go upstairs to remove her hat. I'd forgotten just how elaborate the simplest things had to be at the time. And then it brought to mind that a frined and I had just been discussing how complicated new technology had made just running out to the store, and the number of things one must grab in odrer to do so! The more things change.

[AZChristian]

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I DO love spoilers, so I'm enjoying reading this thread.

 

I've always disliked Cora.  I refer to the one-and-only look that's always on her face as one of a person who is trying to smile in spite of constipation.  I had a Downton Abbey wall calendar over my desk last year.  One month featured Robert and Cora.  I put a yellow post-it note over her face because I couldn't stand the thought of looking at it for a month.

Edited September 22, 2014 by AZChristian

[ZulaMay]

Both the teacher and Robert were obnoxious and I guess it's a toss up as to who was worse since the rules of courtesy say that both hosts and guests should be polite. They were both being assholes so let's just say it was a tie! It annoyed me later when Robert told Tom how far he's come. Not everyone aspires to move up the social ladder. As much as Tom loves Sybbie and likes Mary and enjoys his current job, I don't think that marrying into the family has made him a better person but of course all Robert can see is that now Tom isn't "just" a chauffeur.

 

 

ElectricBoogaloo, you summed up how I felt about it.  It just really bugged me that Tom got caught in the crossfire.  Robert effectively told him in front of everyone that his opinion was invalid, because it happened to line up with Sarah's (who was being rude about it) and NOT with Robert's (who was also being kind of rude about it).   Tom's a well-mannered adult and shouldn't be shut down like a child, nor be "guilty by association" because he has similar political views to a guest who was not even invited by him but by Rose.

 

And I also didn't like how Robert told him he had "come so far", as though what and who he was before was bad.  That was demeaning.  Sure, Tom is more measured and adaptable now but he never hated anyone and his "rebel" cause was Ireland's freedom.  Robert understands the importance of fighting for ones country, obviously, so he shouldn't disrespect Tom's patriotism even if he was not in agreement with the Irish cause.

 

At the end of the day, Tom has made some progress as a person (not that there was really anything wrong with him before.)  Based on his behavior last night, Robert has a lot more growing to do than Tom does.

Edited September 22, 2014 by ZulaMay

[roomtorome]

I want to live in their universe where they all look like they aged only about 6 months over all these years.  This show doesn't even try.  

[ajsnaves]

One of the questions I have is why did they ask Carson to chair their fund raising group? I have no doubt that Carson could do it or is well respected in the village. But there was something in the way she was speaking to him, ordering him about, that made me uncomfortable.  I am wondering if they chose Carson because they think he will be easy to control.  Which will lead to something happening and Robert (Who I should henceforth call Donk) coming in to save the day.  Being the noble man that he is.

 

I wonder who Jimmy will have to save to save his job. I say George swinging from the chandelier in the gallery.  He was put there by Sybbie as revenge for being the favored heir with the original nanny.  Or maybe Isis locks herself in a shed again.

[ElizaD]

Prediction: Drewe dies in a fire and Edith adopts Marigold.

 

Season 1, Thomas steals but is saved by the war.

Season 2, Thomas loses money but is saved by the dognapping and rescue of Isis.

Season 3, Thomas is outed but is saved by his cricket skills.

Season 4... did he do anything bad?

Season 5, Thomas is outed as having known about Baxter's prison past but is saved by the rescue of Edith.

Love Downton, but story logic (let's keep Thomas!) trumps real world logic (do we really want a guy this consistently dodgy to be working for us?).

 

Lady Anstruther was indeed Duckface.

 

I was glad to see that Sarah Bunting got a wardrobe/hairdo upgrade, but the dinner was a return to her old self. She's confrontational in a bullish way, without coming across as truly smart or confident about it. Tom is less confident these days, but he actually gives the impression of thinking about what he believes in and that makes him more credible when he expresses his opinions.

 

Considering the internet jokes about Robert's favorite daughter, I was amused by all the Isis screentime and mentions in the episode. And thanks, Sybbie, for Donk!

 

Daisy has identified a problem and is trying to do something about it. I hope the solution won't be too heavy on Sarah coming to her rescue, because this is a good opportunity for her to grow up.

 

The main cast continue to make just about everything watchable. So many great expressions and line deliveries.

[Glade]

I am glad that the Baxter 'mystery' wasn't dragged out for another whole season, but it is just a repeat of the Bates' situation.  Is Molesley going to travel to London and get the 'real story' of the theft from her father?  Whatever... But really, people who have served their time in prison should not be punished further by being denied employment and left to be homeless, and have the only way to survive be more crimes.  So I really couldn't care less about the Crawley's prejudices there. 

 

Interesting twist that though Marigold's foster mother looks EXACTLY like Edith, the little girl does not.  Sadly Mary continues to verbally abuse Edith at her conveinence; complaining that she's bringing the party down with her mood, and then implying that she intentionally chose to burn down her room; go to hell!

 

Jimmy being sexually harassed by his former employer was kind of a good storyline, while it lasted.  Have we seen the last of Jimmy?  It is a clear paralell to Robert and that housemaid at the end of S2, but even worse.  What is she really offering Jimmy, I take it she isn't considering marrying him, or even firing her butler and giving him the job.  He would perhaps be welcome back in her house in the lowest servant position, making miserable wages while she gets to use his body whenever she wants.  But as a wealthy aristocrat, she took no real risk in coming to Downton and costing him his job.  That Jimmy had this history makes the whole encounter with Thomas make a bit more sense--he wasn't just reacting out of homophobia, because women have used him as an object too.   Both he and Thomas do look a lot better (more flattering hairstyles, etc, and Jimmy was even shirtless!) then they did in S4, so that's good.

 

It's hard to really side with anyone in the politics; I agree with Sarah and Tom, because yes, the war was a pointless waste, a destructive imperial act that robbed many people of their lives, and Robert should be angry with the government, not her.   But Sarah is atrociously rude and obnoxious on all matters, all the time; she doesn't respect anyone elses boundaries.  I disagree strongly with Robert about everything, but of course we all know today that the background/identity politics of the prime minister/president/whatever does NOT mean they won't serve the interests of old money and corporate power. 

[Camera One]

This was an average season premiere.  It had its moments and wasn't that great, nor horrible.

 

Finally, they chipped off one of the endlessly drawn-out storylines we had already seen for half of last season.  We sure had to wait a long time for the utterly uncreative reveal of Baxter's "secret".  Please don't tell me Thomas will now frame Baxter for theft.  Couldn't they let Thomas on the losing end for a complete episode?  It was nice to see Cora smack him down but by the end of the episode, she was back to being dumb as a doorknob.  She could have been grateful for Thomas saving Edith without handwaving away what he did.  

 

We never even saw Baxter seeing Bates take that trip to London.  Why would she be so obsessed with it that she would stare at Anna and Bates all the time?  It's just very contrived, and I'm assuming this is how the Bates/Greene fiasco will finally come out.  Again, this was a storyline which we've seen for half a season.  Enough is enough... get on with it.  Fellowes obviously has nothing to write for Bates and Anna since they apparently spend time discussing such mundane topics as who Mary is going to pick.

 

I usually like Violet's machinations, but this one wasn't that fun to watch.  So she really was threatened by Isobel?  Or was she trying to get Isobel to admit her feelings through jealousy?  

 

I did like Thomas and Jimmy working together.  Too bad they had to destroy Thomas' character with the Baxter subplot.  If Jimmy can't get enough of his former employer, why not go back and work for her?  Then, he could have sex whenever he wants.  

 

I did like Daisy learning math, unless this means more Ms. Bunting.  (runs for the hills)

 

Bunting was so abrasive, but at least it provided the only entertaining scenes, which were at the dinner table.  For a moment there, she and Tom both had the same reddish shade of hair in the light.

 

And then there was the tiresome stuff with the love triangle.  Last season, it seemed like Mary cared way more about Blake, and Gillingham was that pesky try hard.  But now it seems like Mary is giving him serious consideration?  And he's sure she'll change her mind after he sleeps with her?  Ick.  

 

Seriously, dumbest fire ever.  So contrived with Mrs. Hughes seeing Edith's "moment" with the fireman.  This series seems full-out soap opera now.  There's hardly even an attempt to go for character development anymore.

[DeepRunner]

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I DO love spoilers, so I'm enjoying reading this thread.

 

I've always disliked Cora.  I refer to the one-and-only look that's always on her face as one of a person who is trying to smile in spite of constipation.  I had a Downton Abbey wall calendar over my desk last year.  One month featured Robert and Cora.  I put a yellow post-it note over her face because I couldn't stand the thought of looking at it for a month.

 

Agree on the point about spoilers. From what I've read so far, I am interested to see the first episode when it becomes available here, but only for the Edith, Tom, and Bunting angles.

 

Re: Cora...the first few episodes of the show, maybe even the entire first season, she had a bit of a brain, and even in S2, she had some independence and was a bit more developed than she is now. Now, she has become the Vacuous Countess of Grantham, complete with the Vacant Smile. (Why not let an American have brains, especially an American who $aved Downton with her dough?). I wonder what crosses Elizabeth McGovern's mind when she sees the script, other than the fact that her character still exists and she is therefore grateful.

[vesperholly]

Mary and Tony are also pretty forced as well. Something is seriously off with those two.

They have the worst chemistry I've ever seen on my television. Did he run over her puppy ... every time they have a scene together? It's the weirdest thing to watch, especially after three seasons of Mary and Matthew's radiance.

 

My one hope for this season is for Edith to finally have something good happen to her, in the form of her daughter coming to live at Downton. She has been so poorly written and treated in the past few seasons that I am rooting for her as the underdog.

 

I want to live in their universe where they all look like they aged only about 6 months over all these years.  This show doesn't even try.  

 

I don't mind time jumps - Boardwalk Empire just did it nicely - but the way DA holds onto plots for inconceivable amounts of time, and while others rocket ahead unheedingly, drives me batty. Mary and Gillingham are still making doe eyes at each other while Edith's child is walking, but NOW they're going to jump into each other's beds? Thomas is the worst manipulator ever if it takes him over a year to finally push Baxter into action.

 

They have effectively reduced all the characters down to one-note. Thomas is evil, Edith is a sad sack, Robert is a buffoon, Cora is a simpleton, Mary is an ice princess, Daisy lacks confidence, Bunting is rude, Moseley is a joke, Carson is stuck in the past, etc etc etc. It's too bad that one of the things I loved about this show was its well-rounded characters. In S1 when O'Brien put the soap down so Cora would trip, she wavers in doing such a cruel action and even changes her mind, but then it happens anyway. Thomas bonding with Sybil after being injured in the war made him more human and less of a cartoon. Remember when we liked Bates?! Not to mention there were actually plots that didn't revolve around someone's love life. It was never a perfect show, but it became wildly popular for reasons that I'm struggling to find in recent seasons. Sigh.

Edited September 23, 2014 by vesperholly

[saki]

I thought this was a decent start to the season - a bit better than last season, anyway, though still nowhere near as good as season 1.

 

I'm going to go against the grain a bit and say that, although I didn't like Sarah Bunting at all last season, I actually thought she was ok in this episode and I saw a bit more of what Tom sees in her.  I thought Robert was incredibly rude when she walked in, making it quite clear to anyone within earshot that she wasn't welcome.  Tom then did the same thing right in front of her.  Now, I realise Rose blindsided them but it is etiquette 101 not to make guests feel that unwelcome.  I didn't think that Sarah was rude at the dinner table initially when expressing her views on war memorials, I thought that Robert made it personal - basically telling her that she didn't have the right to express an opinion - and she responded in kind.  In short, I think she responded to rudeness with rudeness, which wasn't ideal but I didn't think that she started it.  I also agree that Tom should not have felt that he had to apologise for disagreeing with Robert.  

 

One of the things I miss from season 1 is the sense that the upper classes are not always right - season 1 allowed Matthew and Isobel to be right sometimes - and I felt that there was a slight return to that feel in this episode where it was made clear that, although sometimes abrasive, Sarah Bunting does at least have a job that is useful and is quick and intelligent, Isobel still does much more useful stuff than that the Dowager and Cora, etc.

 

Mary and Gillingham ... boring.  Does anyone else find it really strange the way that they are so explicit about the 'contest' to 'win' Mary?  I get that Julian Fellowes thinks of her in this way, that has been obvious from the very beginning of the show but I find it deeply odd that Mary herself will describe herself as a prize and will actually have a conversation with a suitor about whether or not he's 'won'?  I am not a Mary fan and it just reinforces for me how much she loves herself.  I did initially like the actress's portrayal at least but this episode continued the trend from last season for her coming across as a bit catatonic, the super slow delivery of all of her lines makes her come across as if she is a bit slow.

Edited September 23, 2014 by saki

[abbyzenn]

I liked this episode better than any of last year's.  Hopefully the rest of the season will be as good.  However, I do think JF continually puts in too many stupid plots or needless scenes.  For example Carson telling Mrs. Hughes he was going to the post office for an hour - we learned later what he was doing there and that would have been fine rather than taking up 40 seconds of Carson/Hughes scene.  I like that Daisy is thinking beyond her current job (I think this may mean she's leaving at the end of the season to go run the farm ) but how many scenes to we did to see of her saying she's basically stupid.  Also too much Jimmy for my taste but hopefully he'll be gone next episode. 

 

I thought it was interesting that Bunting thought Rose was setting her up for a prank.  As someone said upthread it was Robert that turned the dinner conversation personal.  However, she was totally rude about her comment of him not being on the committee.  Robert did have a bug up his butt about her the whole show - his conversation with Cora about Tom going to the school and then when he learned she was coming to dinner.  He was rude to her when she showed up at the dinner.  It doesn't bode well for when Tom does find someone he's interested in romantically.  Astute of Tom to pick up on the fact that Robert thought he and Sarah "got up to no good" while the family was doing the season in London.

 

I hope sometime we will actually see Sybie for more than 10 seconds- I couldn't pick her out of a line up.  The llne about Dork.was pretty funny but the scene was so rushed

 

Edith really bugs me.  I think she is so self centered.  Yes it's so better than Mrs. Drewe think Edith is after her husband than Edith ever owning up to her actions.

[ZulaMay]

saki, I agree with you.  I don't like Bunting because her personality grates and I felt she treated Tom with disrespect last season.  She does tend to be rude:  she made fun of Rose's friend, by making the crack about snagging a rich husband, was pushy about going to see the servants, and truly nasty when she made the crack about Robert not being asked to head the memorial committee.

 

BUT you're right that when she walked in the room Robert and Violet acted like she was radioactive.  And even though she was too blunt and eager in expressing her opinions, it was wrong for Robert to tell her AND Tom that their opinions were invalid and they had no right to even express them.  A lot of people felt that way about the war.  It wasn't the best time to mention it but Robert was wrong to bark and bluster at them and shut them down like that.  I mean, excuse the fuck out them for disagreeing with him!  

 

He has displayed and did display poor manners and insensitivity at social occasions, especially with Tom:  attacking his religion at the table right after Sybil died, muttering insults with Violet within earshot, being rude to the singer who visited last season.  He has no leg to stand on when it comes to being rude and losing control of his mouth and his temper.

[Athena]

I was heartily amused/annoyed with the Violet matchmaking or ship implosion scheme. I liked the idea of a Isobel being in a love triangle with Merton and Clarkson and I got it. I love how Violet had to make it even better.

 

I found the Thomas/Baxter was the most boring storyline followed by Sarah Bunting who is a rude and abrasive. Poor Tom. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I love that Violet and Isobel are now at the point where they are taking random walks together and Violet is voluntarily inviting Isobel to luncheon. Their relationship has definitely evolved. Violet teasing Isobel about that guy was something I never would have predicted back in S1.

[Pogojoco]

They had a different dog in series one, Pharaoh. Unfortunately, there was real-life on-set conflict with the dog who played Pharaoh and the Highclere male dogs, who did not like him on their turf and were attacking the poor guy. The producers decided to make a mid-series switch by replacing the dog-actor with a dog-actress and were keeping the information quiet because Lady Carnarvon already had let it be known she thought her estate dogs should be featured (she is apparently quite a handful). It was Hugh Bonneville who took one look at the new animal and asked, "What happened to its penis?" (note: not an exact quote) and they had to fess up to the change.

Poor Pharoah! I sort of like the idea that they would all think it's somehow the same dog, never aging even though it's, like, 25 years old.

 

Also, Lady Carnavon should should be thanking her lucky stars that this show even exists and Downton tourism/production pays Highclere bills as it does and stop being such a handful. 

 

Is it wrong that I just call Drewe "Pig Man"? And that I think Edith should just have herself some Pig Man, who is very kind and seems to care about her feelings in a way none of her blood relations ever have?

 

Sybil was lovely and everything, but she's gone. So get Tom a decent love interest already. 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Llywela]

I don't think Mr Drew is the Fire Chief, he's just one of the locals who volunteers as a fireman in emergencies. In the absence of a professional fire brigade, most able-bodied men in a community like Downton would have volunteered for their local Auxiliary Fire Service; it was in their own interests to do so - you never know when you might need it yourself.

[Badger]

I thought they had a good contrast showing how Thomas acted with Jimmy as opposed to Baxter.  And now we know Thomas has a sister who was friends with Baxter when they were growing up.

 

I didn't notice it before, but Miss Bunting was also rude to that friend of Rose's.  

[saki]

I think Sarah Bunting was rude to that friend of Rose's (though it was also quite funny - I laughed, anyway!) but I think that various characters on the show have been just as rude without nearly as much criticism - the Dowager, Mary, and Robert are fairly regularly rude to people and Tom was incredibly rude to Sarah in this episode, almost accusing her of having come without an invitation.  The most polite person on this show is probably Isobel, who is uniformly kind.

[Andorra]

Well, I don't think Tom was rude to Sarah, he was just surprised to see her? That is not rude?

 

You're right, that Robert, Mary and the Dowager are all very rude sometimes, but there's the big difference: They're not a supposed love interests of my favourite character!

 

AND they're at least funny. I don't find Sarah Bunting funny. I just find her annoying and patronizing. We know many good and loveable sides from the other characters, but I have yet to see something nice in Sarah Bunting except that she is modern and progressive. But so was Sybil and SHE never would have been rude. She was the most gentle woman in the world and still had opinions and values. THAT is the woman Bunting is measured up with and she has not the slightest bit of a chance. No man with a right mind could go from Sybil to Sarah Bunting!

 

So no, no mercy for Bunting. She can just go away and never come back. I demand more for Tom. Someone lovely and nice AND modern and progressive. Someone I can relate to and where I can see a connection,chemistry and attraction. For falling in love with Bunting Tom would have to be blind and deaf. She's awful in every single aspect except for her politics. And even the most political man in the world needs to see more in a woman than her politics!

Edited September 24, 2014 by Andorra

[ZulaMay]

Tom overall is extremely polite and diplomatic.  Mary, Violet and Robert regularly insult people. Robert and Violet are worse than Mary though.  They have done it to Tom in particular.  He's too much of a gentleman to respond in kind but if I were him I'd be tempted to sock him.

 

Totally agree about Edith "getting herself some Pig Man," LOL.  I find him very attractive.  His voice is sexy!  There is the problem of Mrs. Pig Man, however.  Who incidentally looks a LOT like an older Edith.  I totally agree with Glade on that.  It's kind of weird.  If you look at pics of the two of them holding Marigold?  The resemblance is very strong.  What's that all about?

Edited September 24, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Avaleigh]

Tom was incredibly rude to Sarah in this episode, almost accusing her of having come without an invitation.

I like Tom but I have to agree that he wasn't exactly polite when Sarah came to the party. I can't stand her character and I didn't feel sorry for her at all because she's just so thoughtless and rude, but I can see how she might have been feeling defensive and out of it from the moment she stepped into the drawing room.

 

Tom is the main person she knows and he was the main reason she decided to come. Rose told Sarah that she thought it would be a good idea if Tom had a friend at the party. So Sarah shows up and I can see how she might have felt a bit nervous in that moment, hardly knowing anyone, everyone looks over at her as her name is announced, a couple of people stared and then turned back around kind of dismissing her presence, and it seems a tiny bit awkward, so Rose immediately walks over and tries her best to be friendly. Then Tom comes over and the first thing he says to Sarah is "What are you doing here?" Tom might not have been trying to be rude but he certainly wasn't welcoming and I know I would have felt like, okay, "Hi, nice to see you too." So Sarah goes on to tell him that she was invited by Rose. That should be enough, but Tom actually takes it a step further and asks Rose right in front of Sarah if she got permission from Robert! It's like, even if she didn't get permission what's the point in asking Rose about it now in front of Sarah and the rest of the room now that she's already there? To me it was like he was doing everything but flat out telling Sarah that it might not be a good idea that she's there and that she might not really be wanted. He almost came across as uncomfortable and I can't imagine that would have felt very good to Sarah who thought she was coming there as one of Tom's friends. That being said, since Sarah was obnoxious all night long as she usually is I didn't feel all that sorry for her, but I was a little bit surprised at Tom during the beginning of the party. 

 

As far as Sarah's opinions about the memorial--I thought she went above and beyond what was necessary and didn't seem to care if she hurt the feelings of a guest who'd lost someone during the war. I also didn't really think that her request to thank the servants seemed all that genuine. She just seemed like she was being her usual pushy self and that it was more about showing the Crawleys what kind of person she is as opposed to genuinely caring about the staff and the efforts they made for the party.

[Andorra]

 

He almost came across as uncomfortable and I can't imagine that would have felt very good to Sarah who thought she was coming there as one of Tom's friends. That being said, since Sarah was obnoxious all night long as she usually is I didn't feel all that sorry for her, but I was a little bit surprised at Tom during the beginning of the party.

 

I wasn't surprised actually and I think he was meant to look uncomfortable. It was not his idea to invite her and he certainly wouldn't have done so. He doesn't have an intention beyond a friendship IMO. Certainly no romantic interest in her. So I'm not surprised he is very surprised that she is there and that he is not exactly thrilled. He has met her often enough to know that she is not the most polite person and that she hates the Crawleys. She has made that obvious enough towards him and she has also made it very clear that she doesn't hold back her opinion.

 

Also Tom knows that Robert was angry about the CS incident and that Robert suspects he and Sarah "were up to no good" that day. So IMO it is very clear that Tom is not at all happy to see her, but in the contrary knows that a long and difficult evening lays ahead.

 

But - just like you - I didn't feel the least bit sorry for her, because she is the most rude person around anyway. So if she has to suffer a little bit rudeness (which in Tom's case was born out of surprise), I'm absolutely okay with it.

[ZulaMay]

I really don't get the whole business with the CS incident.  Tom explained to Robert what happened:  she came to see the house, went up to see the gallery, and then went home.  I got the sense Robert accepted the explanation and frankly I am annoyed with him that he didn't.  Is it really that big a deal that she stood in the upstairs hallway for a few minutes?  Mary and the Duke wandered around upstairs alone in S1 while she gave HIM a "tour", and her parents didn't object to that! 

 

So either he is making a BFD out of something that really isn't, or he is accusing Tom of lying.  Which is totally unfair.  Tom has been a pretty exemplary son-in-law and employee for four  years:  hardworking, helpful, pleasant, and very accommodating when it comes to living by the Crawleys' rules.  For Robert to assume the worst of him is insulting IMO and based on a class bias that he can't shake no matter what Tom does.  

 

Tom has met them more than halfway and he deserves a lot better than that.

[Pogojoco]

Well, Robert is rude because he's an idiot, but he's lord of the place so we have to put up with it. Mary is more amusing about it, and the Dowager Countess is way more amusing about it.

 

Sarah Bunting showed up to be rude, in my opinion. She was bored and wanted to stick it to the rich people. Visiting the servants was sticking it to the rich people, too. Also, informing a group of people that the war memorial they are planning, in tribute to the young men of their village who were killed, that the war they were killed in was a stupid war is just really bad. Bad form, bad idea and a good way to get people to not see your side. She wasn't even witty about it. Just annoying. Shut up, Bunting. 

 

I love that Pig Man, in his uniform, is all "Edith, I put out the fire you started by carelessly throwing that German book in the fire...and I've also solved your little Marigold predicament." And Edith, in the traditional response of women to firemen, stares at him adoringly.

 

I also love the name Marigold. 

Edited September 25, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Avaleigh]

I wasn't surprised actually and I think he was meant to look uncomfortable. It was not his idea to invite her and he certainly wouldn't have done so. He doesn't have an intention beyond a friendship IMO. Certainly no romantic interest in her. So I'm not surprised he is very surprised that she is there and that he is not exactly thrilled. He has met her often enough to know that she is not the most polite person and that she hates the Crawleys.

Oh ITA I definitely think Tom was uncomfortable, I just thought it was in bad taste to be so obvious about it and came across as unusually rude for his character. His reaction was close to being the same as Robert's. Robert said "What is she doing here?" so it was almost like Tom was walking over and asking her as opposed to being curious as to why one of his friends decided to accept an invitation to hang out with him and his family at Downton. If he'd said something like "What a surprise" or "I wasn't expecting to see you" or something along those lines but "What are you doing here?" To me it's hard not to interpret that as being a little bit rude. The extra bit about Tom asking Rose if she'd cleared it with Robert--I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Mary, Violet, or Edith had asked Rose in front of a guest if the guest really had been given permission from their host to attend the party. 

 

Mary and the Duke wandered around upstairs alone in S1 while she gave HIM a "tour", and her parents didn't object to that!

To be fair I think this situation was different for a few reasons. First, the Duke had been invited to Downton to stay so it's only expected in situation like that to show guests around. It's not like Mary brought the Duke back from attending some concert in the village only to then give him an upstairs tour where the bedrooms are while everyone else was out of town. Mary wasn't supposed to go snooping around the servants' rooms. That was the Duke's idea and Mary knew she wasn't supposed to be up there. When Edith decided to harp on the matter at dinner, she did so because she knew that Mary shouldn't have been up there. Plus, the Crawleys knew the Duke and Mary already had their permission to have him over to stay at the house. The Crawleys had never met the woman that Tom brought into their house while they were away and Thomas was the one who was responsible for spinning the situation and making it seem like it was something that it wasn't. 

 

I really don't think this is a case of Robert going out of his way to be unfair to Tom nor do I think Robert wouldn't have had issues with Mary being in a similar situation where she was bringing back some man from the village that they've never met in order to give said man a night time tour of the house while everyone is away. I don't think Robert or Cora would just ignore something like that if Thomas had told on Mary in this hypothetical situation as he told on Tom. 

 

As far as Robert's comment about how Tom's come so far--IMO he has and I don't think Sybil would disagree. Sybil once asked him why he had to be so angry "all the time" and I definitely don't see that side of Tom so much. He seems like he's matured, he seems more open minded, and I don't think he's so inclined to judge someone hard and fast just because they happen to come from an upperclass background. Sybil was the one who said that Tom would be going backwards if he ended up taking the job as a mechanic and working with cars as he was sort of doing before they got married. I don't feel believe saying that Tom has come far means that he wasn't a good person before or that there was something lacking in him, I just think that he's come along way because he seems to have grown emotionally and personally from how the character was in the first two seasons. 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Andorra]

I actually was a little bit touched by Robert in his scene with Tom, because he said "as Sybil's father this is not an easy conversation for me". It showed IMO, that he is dreading the thought of another woman in Tom's life anyway, which I think is a very honest and a very understandable reaction.

 

He got the information from Thomas first and Thomas made it look as if Tom and Sarah had not just been standing at the gallery. Tom gave an explanation, true, but they got interrupted and I bet Robert didn't really ask more precisely what they did or not did. Tom only said that he "brought her to the house after dinner" and that she "wanted to see the house". So I think there IS some room for misinterpretation.

 

But Robert also says he would worry less about "that" (Tom having a lover), but about him going back to his rejection of the family and when Tom tells him that he won't they part peacefully.

[ZulaMay]

But the thing is Tom never rejected the family.  He always told her he'd welcome them with open arms and he was nothing but polite to them when he came for the wedding and after that too.  It was Violet and Robert who were rude to Tom, not the other way around.  Sybil talked to him about being angry once in S2, when his country was in turmoil because of the English occupation. HIs cousin had been shot for no reason so he had every right to be angry.

 

This whole idea that Tom was "angry" and now he isn't is kind of a myth.  He's no longer politically engaged or "against" anything but he was never against any PEOPLE and said so repeatedly.  I don't know why no one seems to remember that.  It's like they think he was a hateful misanthropic powder keg before which is just not true.

 

And no, that house burning didn't make him a hateful hothead. It wasn't a spontaneous act of arson borne of hatred.  Burning the homes of English landlords was a common tactic in the war:  that, and killing the English soldiers and law enforcement agents who were suppressing the independence movement.  All told a few thousand people (almost all combatants) died in that war.  A number of homes were burned but NOT their inhabitants.  

 

It was nothing compared to the horrors the two sides inflicted on each other in WWI, a drop in the bucket.  So Tom didn't do anything different to what Matthew or William did.  A huge number of people lost their homes in WWI, especially in France.  The countryside was decimated.  The show was so biased in how it portrayed that house incident and almost completely omitted the context in which it happened.  Tom was basically convicted without a trial by the show and the family, if you ask me.

 

Has he grown emotionally and become more measured and diplomatic?  Sure.  How could he not?  But that still doesn't mean he was ever a generally angry and judgmental person.  He wasn't.

 

As for the thing with Sarah, yes, it's open to misinterpretation.  But why should Robert believe Thomas over Tom? Good Lord.  The fact is Robert interpreted it in the worst light possible and said he was "disappointed" in Tom.  Robert should think better of him than to choose to believe the worst for months until Tom tells him otherwise.  That bugged me, sorry.  I still think Tom deserves better.

Edited September 24, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Pogojoco]

Believing Thomas ever is just one of the ways Robert is an idiot. (There's a list)