S29.E11: Kind Of Like Cream Cheese (11) / Still Holdin' On (12)

[LanceM]

The idols that Keith and Natalie found were the pre-merge idols hidden on the separate beaches. These will not be rehidden.The one from Exile is the only one on play now that would be rehidden had Jon used it at last TC.

[fishcakes]

I also came around on Natalie after starting the season with a negative perception of the twinnies.  Part of what I've been enjoying are her over-the-top confessionals - in this episode, something about wanting to kill herself (or Jon) if she had to listen to him talk about wine again.

 

It's funny because the other reason I couldn't stand her on TAR (the first reason being all the shrieking) was how she and Nadiya were constantly calling each other and everyone else fools, idiots, and stupid asses. But I love her for that here because it's true. She's actually almost sedate without her sister; I would like it if she would crack on her bonehead tribemates more than she currently does.

 

I'm trying to remember: who was in the group that foolishly alienated Jaclyn previously when she and her beau were swing votes? I think it was a different group of people than the ones doing it now, but either way it's amazing that people fail to learn that lesson. 

 

The people who ticked off Jaclyn earlier were Josh, Reed, Wes, Keith, and Alec because in addition to not talking to her, they were also farting in her general direction. She felt disrespected by that, and now she feels disrespected by Natalie, Missy, and Baylor for not taking her on reward. Also by Jon, who didn't want to listen to her say obvious things and instead just wanted to make out. My guess is that Jaclyn has never met a person who paid her what she considers to be the proper amount of respect, so the key to working her is simply not to be the last person who didn't fall on the ground to worship her.

 

Sometimes I see flashes of maturity in Baylor, mostly in relation to how her Mom makes very very bad choices in her personal life.  However, that does not preclude Baylor from being a brat.  Brat doesn't  mean evil, and it is definitely not as bad as Jon/Jaclyn's entitlement issues - however, if Baylor had money, then she would feel entitled.  Missy - there is only a couple of words that come to mind to truly describe Missy, and it would be catty to say them.  She will never have anything of material value, if she wins the million, she will blow it on lots of stuff known as vices, and be one of those lottery winner types that end up bankrupt.  She's just that non-intelligent.

 

I had a little bit of hope for Baylor when she was talking about how her Mom's attachment to Jon is similar to the times that Missy's been duped by past boyfriends or husbands. But then Baylor basically reenacted that dynamic with Alec, when he was telling her about his fake feelings and her reaction was, "ooh, he's sharing his real emotions with me; he must like me!" and lobbying on his behalf with Natalie. I think you're right that Missy would blow the money, but I think Baylor would probably blow it as well. I could see either one of them on Judge Judy answering her question about why they bought a car for someone they only knew for three weeks by saying, "he told me I could trust him!"  In a way, Missy and Baylor are the mirror images of Jaclyn; they have no self-esteem and Jaclyn has too much. I would say that, for the most part, the women this season have been a disappointment, but then I look at the men, and they're mostly crap as well.

[LanceM]

Did Baylor lobby for Alec with Natalie? We certainly didn't see it. And if such a discussion took place why wouldn't they show it? They like to build up suspense for the vote so it would seem that would be the way they do it. Instead the suspense was on whether Natalie was going to switch her vote from Keith to Alec, not whether or not Baylor was going to switch hers.

[blackwing]

Natalie had the discussion with Baylor where she said she was going to vote out Alec instead.  We saw Baylor basically saying "why Alec, I wish you would consider keeping Alec, we can easily get him to vote with us".  Baylor was designated to vote for Alec.  She could have switched her vote to Keith but I guess she didn't want to upset Natalie.

 

People are saying that Jon has this big ego power trip going, but Natalie's is just as big.  Somehow she has got it in her head that she can engineer boots when she wants.  Baylor is a follower.  It seems Baylor is more loyal to Natalie than Missy, because she didn't tell Missy that Natalie was going to change her vote.  She also hadn't told Missy about Natalie's idol.  Natalie made a move just to shock Jon and make him feel less comfortable, but I think it was a poor decision.  She did it just to let everyone know who is calling the shots.

[fishcakes]

Did Baylor lobby for Alec with Natalie? We certainly didn't see it.

 

They showed it, but it was a very quick scene. It was basically just what blackwing described. I think Baylor knew that Natalie had ultimately decided to vote out Alec (although we didn't see that part) because after the vote, Missy, Jon, and Jaclyn looked like they'd been hit with hammers, but Baylor didn't look surprised. I go back and forth on whether it was a good move for Natalie, but overall it probably was. Jon and Jaclyn are loyal to each other, and Missy is loyal to Baylor and Jon. Natalie really only had Baylor, and Alec could have threatened that if he stayed in the picture. With Alec gone, she still probably has Baylor and now she has Keith as well, though admittedly he's liable to freak out and accidentally vote for himself at the next TC.

[ShadowSixx]

I will probably like Baylor a smidgen if she teams up with Natalie and Keith and vote out Missy (that is if she isn't taken out of the game next week) and stand on her own two feet. I still wouldn't want her to win though. She needs to open her eyes and see the big picture if she wants to last but then again Natalie can use her as a goat for the finals if Natalie makes it that far. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I will probably like Baylor a smidgen if she teams up with Natalie and Keith and vote out Missy (that is if she isn't taken out of the game next week)

 

 

Why would she do that. That would be just stupid. 

[blackwing]

I will probably like Baylor a smidgen if she teams up with Natalie and Keith and vote out Missy

Baylor has no reason to want to vote out her mom.  Unlike Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera, Baylor isn't in any danger.  Her alliance is firmly in control, and her suballiance doesn't have any issues apart from Missy's loyalty to Jon.  Ciera was in a precarious position, she was in the minority and was trying to prove to the others that she could be loyal.  In the end, she voted out her mom and lost anyways.

 

Is there any confirmation of whether it will be final 2 or final 3?  I only started re-watching Survivor with the first Blood v Water, so I have no idea if jury numbers mean anything.  Would they possibly have 3 finalists and 8 jury members?  Tyson's win had 3 finalists but I can't remember the number of jurors.

 

If it's final 3 and it's a couple (Missy/Baylor or Jon/Jaclyn) and anybody, I tend to think that the "anybody" would win.  But they can't count on that.  Natalie is counting on taking Missy and Baylor to the end because she thinks it will be an easy win for her, and she's probably right.  But if they got to final 3 and there was one more boot, Missy/Baylor would each have a shot at booting Natalie.

[LoLo]

Another perfect opportunity to break up Ken & Barbie (Jon & Jaq) blown. I don't get it. Both Baylor & Natalie were going to vote for Jon, he then won immunity. So why not take out Jaqueline, his ally & the only one he will stay true to? They could have easily got both Keith & Alec to vote her out. Voting out Alec was a waste of a vote. He stinks at immunity challenges, doesn't have any strong ally's, the jury doesn't love him & they will not respect his game play so why get rid of him? It was a dumb move to not break them up, which would force Jon to use his idol if he doesn't win immunity next week. Natalie is not going to come between Baylor & Missy or Jon & Jaq. She's 5th with them when she could have been 3rd with the guys.

 

I agree with Reed, Baylor is a brat. Why is ok for her to taunt Reed but not ok for him to call her a brat. I'm sure Reed's mother didn't like Missy & Baylor talking to her son that way. Just because Baylor has her mother there doesn't make her off limits.

 

In the beginning I liked both Jon & Jaq. Now, I can't stand them. Everyone gives them reward, sends him to exile, knowing the clue will be there. They are just handing them the game. Then their fight...how stupid was that? He didn't go off on her, she behaved like a spoiled princess. Then she gives him the silent treatment, then when she's ready to talk, he's not & she doesn't understand why. It was so awkward for everyone around. Nothing worse then being around a couple have a stupid argument in front of everyone.

[needschocolate]

Another perfect opportunity to break up Ken & Barbie (Jon & Jaq) blown. I don't get it. Both Baylor & Natalie were going to vote for Jon, he then won immunity. So why not take out Jaqueline, his ally & the only one he will stay true to? They could have easily got both Keith & Alec to vote her out. Voting out Alec was a waste of a vote. He stinks at immunity challenges, doesn't have any strong ally's, the jury doesn't love him & they will not respect his game play so why get rid of him? It was a dumb move to not break them up, which would force Jon to use his idol if he doesn't win immunity next week. Natalie is not going to come between Baylor & Missy or Jon & Jaq. She's 5th with them when she could have been 3rd with the guys.

 

I think part of the reason to take out Jon now was because it would be a blindside and he wouldn't play the idol.  If they take out Jac now, Jon might actually figure out that he is on the chopping block and play his idol next week, if he doesn't get immunity - and he would probably vote for Natalie as she would be seen as the backstabber for voting Jac out. 

 

Or maybe they didn't vote Jaclyn out because they didn't want to spend the next 3 days listening to Jon go on and on about how much he missing Jaclyn.

[LoLo]

I think part of the reason to take out Jon now was because it would be a blindside and he wouldn't play the idol.  If they take out Jac now, Jon might actually figure out that he is on the chopping block and play his idol next week, if he doesn't get immunity - and he would probably vote for Natalie as she would be seen as the backstabber for voting Jac out. 

 

Or maybe they didn't vote Jaclyn out because they didn't want to spend the next 3 days listening to Jon go on and on about how much he missing Jaclyn.

I would still have voted her out. Even if he wins or plays his idol next week, then they could have went after Alec or Keith. Nat has an idol too so she's safe either way. If either Jaq or Jon wins immunity next week, they now know Nat's not being honest with them & they can use the idol along with their immunity & be safe next week too. She blew the opportunity to break up the "power couple".

[blackwing]

Nat did not vote out Jaclyn because she is preternaturally fixated with the idea of blindsiding Jon. She wants badly to blindside him just as he blindsided Jeremy, so he knows what it feels like. If she got Jaclyn out then he'd be on the alert and it wouldn't be as satisfying to her because if she got him out he would know it was coming.

Poor strategy on her part. At this point she is so obsessed with making it a blindside that she didn't make the better move. She is too emotional about the fact that it has to be a blindside. She wants payback. But she seems to overlook the fact that Missy and Baylor participated in the Jeremy blindside.

[BigRedCheese]

I think Natalie didn't try to vote out Jaclyn because she didn't think she could sell Baylor on it, and if that's the case, I would agree.

[RedheadZombie]

Could be risky, you're right.  I bet when push comes to shove, Baylor would cede the Idol to Natalie, but I'm not sure about Missy.

 

Most especially if she thinks it's *owed* to her precious daughter.

 

This situation makes me very curious.  It seems the only thing you're not allowed to steal in Survivor is an actual idol.  I personally think that Natalie has the right to the idol, but what would happen if Baylor tried to make a claim on it and accused Natalie of taking it, or simply sneaks it from its hiding spot and tries to play it?  If it was Baylor's clue (?), and you've got Natalie calling it "our" idol, what happens?

 

Sometimes I see flashes of maturity in Baylor, mostly in relation to how her Mom makes very very bad choices in her personal life.

 

I think if a woman has three ex-husbands by the time she's in her forties, it doesn't take a lot of insight to realize she's making bad choices.

 

Another perfect opportunity to break up Ken & Barbie (Jon & Jaq) blown. I don't get it. Both Baylor & Natalie were going to vote for Jon, he then won immunity. So why not take out Jaqueline, his ally & the only one he will stay true to?

 

I still don't quite understand it.  Natalie seems to have reserved her anger for Jon only, and wasn't she talking a girls alliance again?  If she got rid of Jon, she probably thought Jaclyn would stick with the girls and get rid of Keith and Alec.  Since the trio of Baylor/Missy/Natalie are tight, Jaclyn would have been the next to go.  Natalie seems to have made few enemies.  Even when the spitter/farters were insulting the girls, they excluded Natalie from their criticism.  She's going to be hard to beat.

Edited December 6, 2014 by RedheadZombie

[KimberStormer]

The people who ticked off Jaclyn earlier were Josh, Reed, Wes, Keith, and Alec because in addition to not talking to her, they were also farting in her general direction. She felt disrespected by that, and now she feels disrespected by Natalie, Missy, and Baylor for not taking her on reward. Also by Jon, who didn't want to listen to her say obvious things and instead just wanted to make out. My guess is that Jaclyn has never met a person who paid her what she considers to be the proper amount of respect, so the key to working her is simply not to be the last person who didn't fall on the ground to worship her.

 

I just can't agree with this.  The first sentence is basically right but I don't believe she really said anything about the farting etc (that was Missy and Natalie that I remember) and the point was that they weren't talking to her about the game which is what you do with your allies--they took her for granted as controlled entirely by Jon, which she felt was not only disrespectful but bad for her game.  She said this clearly, nothing to do with being a princess.  She was petulant about being left out of the reward, yes, but she also felt (rightly as it turned out) that it revealed that the other three women were tighter with each other and put each other higher in the alliance than they put her.  That is to say--yes, prompted by feelings of entitlement and expecting to be catered to--she had a game reason to be upset/worried/want to flip.  She felt disrespected by Jon when he came back because like the other boys he didn't want to talk about the game and dismissed everything she was saying before she could even finish saying it with "I know all this already".  Now, I agree with him--he did pretty much know that the dudes would try to convince her to flip by saying she's on the bottom etc.--but I don't think it's too much to ask for him to listen for five minutes when she's trying to play the damn game.  Jon knows that these subtle things can be revealing and important in the game; he was just telling her to give him credit for playing the idol, because that will increase the perception of him as a player on the jury.  So I can agree with her that it's especially grating to be told, essentially, that she should be seen/fondled and not heard when the man of the house comes home from work.  I think her reaction to both not getting the reward and Jon's dismissal was a bit immature, but hardly outrageous or demanding worship.

 

The problem I have with the Jon/Jaclyn dynamic is that it's a BvW dynamic that is all wrong for Survivor.  Jon clearly believes that a) a win for one of them is a win for both, b) he has a better chance than Jaclyn of winning, c) therefore Jaclyn should be putting all her effort into him winning.  Think of the most doggedly loyal, lay-down-and-let-my-friend-win player, like Chelsea to Kim from One World--can you ever imagine Kim saying "Chelsea, don't say x, say y, because it makes me look better to the jury"?  Never.  It's obscene.  It's a betrayal of the game of Survivor.  It makes me angry.  Especially in a boyfriend/girlfriend dynamic, which carries all this other gross baggage--man brings home the bacon, woman is his loyal helpmeet, etc.  I wish more than anything that Jaclyn would cut Jon off at the knees and go for the FTC herself, take credit for all the big J's she's helped take out--Josh, Jeremy, Jon--and say "I played this game best", like a real Survivor player.  But it's not a real Survivor season, it's Blood VS Water, it's a different game, and Jon is probably right.  And that's horrible.

 

I think that's different. Those are players who make sure they're not perceived as threats. They may sometimes happen to be the deciding vote at at TC, but that's just a function of the numbers.

I consider Swing-Votes (especially self-proclaimed ones) to be players who no one wants, but whom both alliances have to work with situationally and temporarily to get numbers

 

Cirie was being actively recruited by both alliances in Micronesia--Penner was reduced to fighting with her at tribal, trying to win her over.  She even played the "power swing vote" move of saying "if you want me you vote who I say you vote for," which is supposed to be the "arrogant" kiss of death.  People even said it was, at the time.

[Guest]

This situation makes me very curious.  It seems the only thing you're not allowed to steal in Survivor is an actual idol.  I personally think that Natalie has the right to the idol, but what would happen if Baylor tried to make a claim on it and accused Natalie of taking it, or simply sneaks it from its hiding spot and tries to play it?  If it was Baylor's clue (?), and you've got Natalie calling it "our" idol, what happens?

Cameramen have it on tape who found it in its hiding place.  That's whose idol it is.  

[choclatechip45]

 

Cirie was being actively recruited by both alliances in Micronesia--Penner was reduced to fighting with her at tribal, trying to win her over.  She even played the "power swing vote" move of saying "if you want me you vote who I say you vote for," which is supposed to be the "arrogant" kiss of death.  People even said it was, at the time.

Didn't Parvati and Amanda basically tell Cirie whoever she wanted to go home that night they would vote for them?

 

I think the key to both Cirie and Sandra's games is that they are both pretty perceptive people. I remember during the episode when they voted back Lil & Burton. Sandra was the only one to guess correctly that Lil & Burton would be voted in and up to that Sandra was never on a tribe with Lil. I don't think anyone this season has any of those skills.

 

I thought Reed came off as a brat during the reward challenge with the 12 horses comment. I didn't think Baylor was all that bad in the challenge. However, Missy came off the worst. I understand you want to defend your kid, but she lost me when trying she tried to play the moral high ground.

Edited December 6, 2014 by choclatechip45

[Alapaki]

Cirie was being actively recruited by both alliances in Micronesia--Penner was reduced to fighting with her at tribal, trying to win her over.  She even played the "power swing vote" move of saying "if you want me you vote who I say you vote for," which is supposed to be the "arrogant" kiss of death.  People even said it was, at the time.

 

 

I do think that in that TC Cirie was a classic "swing vote" early one.  I think she was clearly at the bottom of the Ozzy/Amanda/James/Parvati alliance.  However, then there came the Tribal Switch that separated those 4 players and bought Cirie time.  That seasons also involved a group of Fans who weren't the sharpest strategist the game has ever seen.

[LoLo]

This situation makes me very curious.  It seems the only thing you're not allowed to steal in Survivor is an actual idol.  I personally think that Natalie has the right to the idol, but what would happen if Baylor tried to make a claim on it and accused Natalie of taking it, or simply sneaks it from its hiding spot and tries to play it?  If it was Baylor's clue (?), and you've got Natalie calling it "our" idol, what happens?

 

 

I think if a woman has three ex-husbands by the time she's in her forties, it doesn't take a lot of insight to realize she's making bad choices.

 

 

I still don't quite understand it.  Natalie seems to have reserved her anger for Jon only, and wasn't she talking a girls alliance again?  If she got rid of Jon, she probably thought Jaclyn would stick with the girls and get rid of Keith and Alec.  Since the trio of Baylor/Missy/Natalie are tight, Jaclyn would have been the next to go.  Natalie seems to have made few enemies.  Even when the spitter/farters were insulting the girls, they excluded Natalie from their criticism.  She's going to be hard to beat.

If Natalie got Jon voted out, Jaq would scramble from side to side as she's a flip flopper & without Jon's support she would be lost. I would have voted her or Missy out. The 2 loyal couples need to be separated & she could have done so with Alec's vote. 

[peachmangosteen]

The problem I have with the Jon/Jaclyn dynamic is that it's a BvW dynamic that is all wrong for Survivor.  Jon clearly believes that a) a win for one of them is a win for both, b) he has a better chance than Jaclyn of winning, c) therefore Jaclyn should be putting all her effort into him winning.  Think of the most doggedly loyal, lay-down-and-let-my-friend-win player, like Chelsea to Kim from One World--can you ever imagine Kim saying "Chelsea, don't say x, say y, because it makes me look better to the jury"?  Never.  It's obscene.  It's a betrayal of the game of Survivor.  It makes me angry.  Especially in a boyfriend/girlfriend dynamic, which carries all this other gross baggage--man brings home the bacon, woman is his loyal helpmeet, etc.  I wish more than anything that Jaclyn would cut Jon off at the knees and go for the FTC herself, take credit for all the big J's she's helped take out--Josh, Jeremy, Jon--and say "I played this game best", like a real Survivor player.  But it's not a real Survivor season, it's Blood VS Water, it's a different game, and Jon is probably right.  And that's horrible.

 

I agree with everything in your post, but this part especially. I would love to see Jaclyn blast Jon at FTC and take the credit she deserves for them getting to where they are. 

 

But ultimately I would hate to see them in FTC together because Jon would be insufferable and would beat Jaclyn and it would drive me insane.

Edited December 6, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Oholibamah]

This situation makes me very curious.  It seems the only thing you're not allowed to steal in Survivor is an actual idol.  I personally think that Natalie has the right to the idol, but what would happen if Baylor tried to make a claim on it and accused Natalie of taking it, or simply sneaks it from its hiding spot and tries to play it?  If it was Baylor's clue (?), and you've got Natalie calling it "our" idol, what happens?

 

I am 99% sure that when somebody finds an Idol in joint custody the producers/cameramen force the players to make a statement regarding ownership. The most interesting case was when Erik unearthed the Idol in Caramoan, but it seemed to be consenus that it belonged to Andrea. I can't imagine there is any confusion surrounding who owns it because I'm sure the producers force the players to understand. There was also the Danielle/Amanda battle for the clue during Treasure Island - it seemed that the producers intervened and deemed the clue Danielle's, explaining Colby's resignation.

 

I do think that in that TC Cirie was a classic "swing vote" early one.  I think she was clearly at the bottom of the Ozzy/Amanda/James/Parvati alliance.  However, then there came the Tribal Switch that separated those 4 players and bought Cirie time.  That seasons also involved a group of Fans who weren't the sharpest strategist the game has ever seen.

 

From what I've heard, Parvati and Cirie were working together from the very beginning and always had the intention of overpowering the men later. This explains why Cirie was so confident in her decision to side with the couples alliance.

[fishcakes]

This situation makes me very curious.  It seems the only thing you're not allowed to steal in Survivor is an actual idol.  I personally think that Natalie has the right to the idol, but what would happen if Baylor tried to make a claim on it and accused Natalie of taking it, or simply sneaks it from its hiding spot and tries to play it?  If it was Baylor's clue (?), and you've got Natalie calling it "our" idol, what happens?

 

I don't know, but I would guess that the rule is that whoever first takes it out of its hiding place owns it. There was the situation in Nicaragua where Jill and Marty were looking for the clue together and Jill was the one to find it, but she didn't touch it; instead she pointed to it for Marty to pick up, and it was always considered Marty's. But then Jill was kind of a doormat anyway, so I doubt she would have contested ownership.

 

I just can't agree with this.  The first sentence is basically right but I don't believe she really said anything about the farting etc (that was Missy and Natalie that I remember) and the point was that they weren't talking to her about the game which is what you do with your allies--they took her for granted as controlled entirely by Jon, which she felt was not only disrespectful but bad for her game.  She said this clearly, nothing to do with being a princess. 

 

At the time, I thought she was right to not want to stay allied with the guys for just those reasons -- they clearly had no use for her beyond Jon -- and I didn't consider her wanting to flip as anything other than a sound game decision. But her behavior since then puts that in a new light.  Every time someone doesn't do what she wants, be it take her on a reward or have a conversation at the exact moment she wants to have it instead of five minutes later, she gets her feelings hurt and says they're not respecting her. She has the same reaction to everything that doesn't go her way. And considering that in this last episode she wanted to flip back to the very people who she claims were disrespecting her less than a week earlier makes it look as if it wasn't a game decision after all, but an emotional one.

Edited December 6, 2014 by fishcakes

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Well put KIMBERSTORMER. I couldn't have said it better.

 

If Natalie got Jon voted out, Jaq would scramble from side to side as she's a flip flopper & without Jon's support she would be lost. 

 

There is absolutely nothing Jaclyn can do to change this perception and the girl is trying. She resents the idea that she is seen as Jon's follower when in reality, she has proven to have a better perception of the shifting dynamics than he does.

 

She will not be lost without Jon. She will be freed from being in his shadow. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[NutMeg]

I've always liked the reveal-the-pecking-order challenge, but I was disappointed with the questions this episode. Instead of "do you know much about your tribemates", I was hoping for "who thinks he/she is in control of the game?", "who is really running the game?", "who is the most obnoxious/entitled/diva/lazy [any of these would have done] player in the game?". These are the kind of questons that really opened some players' eyes in the past on how they were perceived. I'm thinking back to Courtney from Casaya (don't even remenber the season name, but that team is mythic).

 

What happens if it turns out it's a final two? I fear in that case Natalie might be screwed.

 

A man has to get a fox, a chicken, and a sack of corn across a river.
He has a rowboat, and it can only carry him and one other thing.
If the fox and the chicken are left together, the fox will eat the chicken.
If the chicken and the corn are left together, the chicken will eat the corn.
How does the man do it?

 

Love this, in French it involves a wolf, a goat and a cabbage. Fun memories of when I first heard it :-) And yes, you do it in 4 steps. Maybe Natalie knows it as Jon, Keith and Baylor :-)

 

With Cirie being mentioned above, I think she was best in her first season (Casaya, again!), still good but not great in Fans vs Favs and went downhill from there, ther more entitled she felt/played, the more she lost me. It's like she bought the cool aid and became a different person, less strategic more entitled. Sandra she is not.   

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

But ultimately I would hate to see them in FTC together because Jon would be insufferable and would beat Jaclyn and it would drive me insane.

 

She can't even get credit from people with a bird's eye view. The reason they will vote him over her is the same reason they ignored her in camp. 

[peachmangosteen]

What happens if it turns out it's a final two? I fear in that case Natalie might be screwed.

Good point. It doesn't seem like Natalie is thinking about that possibility. She probably figures she can beat Baylor/Missy in the IC (probably right, but not a super sure thing, IMO). Or maybe she thinks there's a chance Baylor could take her over Missy, but that's just stupid.

 

With Cirie being mentioned above, I think she was best in her first season (Casaya, again!), still good but not great in Fans vs Favs and went downhill from there, ther more entitled she felt/played, the more she lost me. It's like she bought the cool aid and became a different person, less strategic more entitled. Sandra she is not.

I completely agree. I loved Cirie so much in her first season, but she lost me completely by her third one. She got so entitled. And IMO no one holds a candle to Sandra!

[alegtostandon]

Just my thoughts, for whatever they are worth!

 

As much as I try, I just cannot warm up to the remaining 'Twinsie;'', I disliked them so much on AR, there is nothing she can do to break that.

 

I just do not get this just handing a challenge over to a person, especially since 'that person' was just handed the reward for that baseball game.  To me, this is taking away from the fun of the show. The same with passing a 'win' over to someone else, if it were me, I would decline it because it seems that whoever it is passed over to is the next person voted off, except in Missy's case, for some reason.

 

Speaking of Missy, she and her daughter just grate on my nerves. This is one reason I do not like the 'Blood vs Water' game.  Hello... you are playing in 'Survivor', not everyone is going to like you and your precious daughter.  If you are so sensitive about someone making comments about your daughter, than keep her at home in your glass house,

 

 I guess I have to say that I am on board for a Keith win here, I just do not care for any of the other people who are left.

[choclatechip45]

I think Cirie's Micronesia game has been underrated. She was the orchestrator of pretty much every big move that season except when Amanda played the idol and Alexis went home. Her third game was horrible because she couldn't control anyone.

 

Random question: Am I the only one who doesn't think Baylor is all that bad? I think she is annoying, but I don't think she is as bad as Heidi, Jenna, Candace (CI Version), Adam, Lisi, and Eliza (Vanuatu version). All the ones I listed are people who came off as pretty bratty, I don't think Baylor is coming off bratty I think she is coming off as annoying/needy.

[jsm1125]

I think Cirie's Micronesia game has been underrated. She was the orchestrator of pretty much every big move that season except when Amanda played the idol and Alexis went home. Her third game was horrible because she couldn't control anyone.

 

Random question: Am I the only one who doesn't think Baylor is all that bad? I think she is annoying, but I don't think she is as bad as Heidi, Jenna, Candace (CI Version), Adam, Lisi, and Eliza (Vanuatu version). All the ones I listed are people who came off as pretty bratty, I don't think Baylor is coming off bratty I think she is coming off as annoying/needy.

I don't think Baylor is all that bad. I actually like her.

[choclatechip45]

She's not my favorite, but I wouldn't mind her winning.

[needschocolate]

One of the things I love about this show is that there is no one perfect strategy.  The strategy that won one season might get you voted out pre-merge in a different season. 

 

 

 

I just do not get this just handing a challenge over to a person, especially since 'that person' was just handed the reward for that baseball game.  To me, this is taking away from the fun of the show. The same with passing a 'win' over to someone else, if it were me, I would decline it because it seems that whoever it is passed over to is the next person voted off, except in Missy's case, for some reason.

 

I agree with not liking people giving away their challenge wins.  They are just kissing up in my opinion and I don't think most players play this game so morally that they would feel like they owe someone for giving them the prize. 

 

However, I am confused by declining the win being passed to you because it would make you go home, unless you are Missy.  Isn't it sort of the opposite?  Natalie and Jeremy passed their wins to Jon and Jaclyn and Jeremy got voted out, and Jon and Jaclyn are still in it.  Then Reed passed his win onto Missy and Reed was voted out (or am I misremembering that?).  Seems like there is no problem accepting someone else's win, but giving away your win is bad luck.

[neece26]

I too am tired of people giving away their rewards.  Maybe they are doing too many of the reward challenges.  Something is off in the game if people feel it's no big deal giving up the chance to earn one.  They get these huge feasts every couple of days.  I remember back in the good old days the reward was one slice of pizza and they all got to take a bite of it!  

[jsm1125]

I've always liked the reveal-the-pecking-order challenge, but I was disappointed with the questions this episode. Instead of "do you know much about your tribemates", I was hoping for "who thinks he/she is in control of the game?", "who is really running the game?", "who is the most obnoxious/entitled/diva/lazy [any of these would have done] player in the game?". These are the kind of questons that really opened some players' eyes in the past on how they were perceived. I'm thinking back to Courtney from Casaya (don't even remenber the season name, but that team is mythic).

 

What happens if it turns out it's a final two? I fear in that case Natalie might be screwed.

 

Love this, in French it involves a wolf, a goat and a cabbage. Fun memories of when I first heard it :-) And yes, you do it in 4 steps. Maybe Natalie knows it as Jon, Keith and Baylor :-)

 

With Cirie being mentioned above, I think she was best in her first season (Casaya, again!), still good but not great in Fans vs Favs and went downhill from there, ther more entitled she felt/played, the more she lost me. It's like she bought the cool aid and became a different person, less strategic more entitled. Sandra she is not.   

One of the best parts of that challenge in Panama was Cirie's constant giggling whenever Courtney came up for an answer.

[SnarkKitty]

At the time, I thought she was right to not want to stay allied with the guys for just those reasons -- they clearly had no use for her beyond Jon -- and I didn't consider her wanting to flip as anything other than a sound game decision. But her behavior since then puts that in a new light.  Every time someone doesn't do what she wants, be it take her on a reward or have a conversation at the exact moment she wants to have it instead of five minutes later, she gets her feelings hurt and says they're not respecting her. She has the same reaction to everything that doesn't go her way. And considering that in this last episode she wanted to flip back to the very people who she claims were disrespecting her less than a week earlier makes it look as if it wasn't a game decision after all, but an emotional one.

 

Nailed it!

[rozen]

Well put KIMBERSTORMER. I couldn't have said it better.

 

 

There is absolutely nothing Jaclyn can do to change this perception and the girl is trying. She resents the idea that she is seen as Jon's follower when in reality, she has proven to have a better perception of the shifting dynamics than he does.

 

She will not be lost without Jon. She will be freed from being in his shadow. 

 

She'd have to flip-flop if Jon is voted out, if only because she never bothered to develop a proper suballiance with anyone else. Jon could limp on by himself, and possibly win the whole thing, because he is a Comp Beast threat. Jaclyn's not strong, does not have good balance or flexibility, and has little endurance. If they get to Jon before her, she's kind of hosed.

Edited December 7, 2014 by rozen

[KimberStormer]

She'd have to flip-flop if Jon is voted out, if only because she never bothered to develop a proper suballiance with anyone else.

 

It's almost like...nobody thinks of her as an independent player: discusses the game with her without Jon, takes her on rewards without Jon, cares about her at all except as an extension of Jon.  What an entitled princess to find this obnoxious!

[peachmangosteen]

Random question: Am I the only one who doesn't think Baylor is all that bad?

 

I don't find her that bad. I hated her at first, but I've actually grown somewhat fond of her. She's my second fave after Natalie. I would love to see her win, both because I like her and because it would be super hilarious.

 

One of the things I love about this show is that there is no one perfect strategy.  The strategy that won one season might get you voted out pre-merge in a different season. 

 

That's what I love, too.

 

It's almost like...nobody thinks of her as an independent player: discusses the game with her without Jon, takes her on rewards without Jon, cares about her at all except as an extension of Jon.  What an entitled princess to find this obnoxious!

 

LOL! Yea really. I mean, I do think that Jaclyn has exhibited some less-than-amazing behavior, but I feel like I always get her reasoning for it. And since I'm someone who believes there is always a pretty high level of sexism on Survivor, I feel for her having to play with her boyfriend who is getting all the credit for their game when he really doesn't deserve even a tenth of it since I feel he'd be lost as hell without her.

Edited December 7, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

Maybe the people within the game are giving Jon but not Jaclyn credit for playing a good game, but no one here seems to be doing so. There are a few people here who like both of them, but no one who seems to think he's great and she's not. Personally, I think both Jon and Jaclyn are playing a terrible, ego-driven game. As for why their tribemates seem to be giving Jon more of the credit and blame, it's because, for whatever reason (and I see no evidence that it's solely because he's the man), he's the face of the alliance and based on what's been shown, the more active member. He's the one who's been to Exile Island twice and found two idols, he's the one who went to Missy about voting out Jeremy, and in general he's the one who's been talking strategy with others. Jaclyn said the guys weren't talking strategy to her when Jon was at Exile, but by the same token, Keith and Wes said she had not tried to talk strategy with them and she admitted that was true. Jaclyn may have a better sense of the way the winds are blowing than Jon, but I can't think of anything she's done independently of him and except for one conversation with Natalie about the split vote I don't think I've even seen her talk strategy with anyone but Jon, though I'm happy to be corrected on this if people have better memories of this stultifying season than I do.

Edited December 7, 2014 by fishcakes

[peachmangosteen]

You know, I can't really disagree with any of that. I can't really recall anything Jaclyn's done independently either. I do think she very obviously understands things much better than Jon and is much more perceptive than him. She seems to maybe want it both ways, be respected for being the brains of the duo while letting Jon be the face. Which is a legitimate strategy that good players have used, but I'm not so sure she's actually actively playing it that way or it's more like she doesn't really feel like doing any work and would rather just tell Jon what to do, but then she gets mad when people think Jon's the one doing everything.

 

That being said, I still like her more than Jon and she's my 3rd choice to win.

Edited December 7, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[truthaboutluv]

And let's remember that when Jaclyn was on the outs in original Coyopa she was all but invisible. We were never shown her attempting to do anything to save herself or even strategizing at all. I honestly can't remember Jaclyn even having many TH's at that point during the game. We saw Val try to save herself and Jaclyn which got her eliminated but she still tried. We saw Baylor approach Alec and Wes to vote out Rocker and sure they pretty much laughed in her face but she still tried. I don't remember Jaclyn doing one thing that whole time.

 

The only thing I remember is her having to go to Exile with Drew the idiot, when she lost the reward challenge against Jon and Drew telling her he was going to throw the challenge for Hunahpu to lose. That's actually why I thought it was interesting when Wes stated she never spoke to him either and made me wonder about their time at Coyopa and if she ever tried to talk to Wes and Alec when the tables were turned and she was in trouble. Because her big thing was that even when they were down, they refused to scramble to her but if she didn't do the same either when Alec and Wes were in the numbers, what does that say about her?

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, it's hard to know what really transpired at original Coyopa because we weren't allowed to know anything but what Josh was thinking or how John Rocker is an asshole. Ugh, this fucking editing!

 

Because her big thing was that even when they were down, they refused to scramble to her but if she didn't do the same either when Alec and Wes were in the numbers, what does that say about her?

 

I didn't really think about that, but it's a very good point.

 

I think initially Jaclyn was probably a big part of the women's alliance thing and once it fell apart immediately, she maybe just kinda gave up and figured she'd just bide her time until the merge or get voted out.

 

I often wonder what Jaclyn's relationship was like with Baylor at original Coyopa. If only we could've seen more from her and maybe one less confessional from Josh about how it's just SO CRAZY that a hick and a "Broadway star" can relate to each other.

Edited December 7, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Wings]

Jaclyn would be smart to align with Natalie, Baylor and Missy to vote Jon out and be the one to hatch this plan.  That would be a huge move and she would gain my respect.  No couple will make it to F3 so same goes for Baylor being willing to vote her mother off, as well.  You are going to share the money with your blood partner anyway and only one can win.  Choose who you think has a shot and use them to gain your position. 

[Hanahope]

I thought Jaclyn was being very selfish wanting to go on the reward, when she had been given the last two rewards by others (and one of those was Natalie sacrificing her earned reward).  She's crying about Jon going to exile, but she has to know he'll find the idol and that's worth giving up a reward for.

 

I'm on the fence about Natalie's action.  Is she going to play dumb and say she got mixed up on who to vote for?  Or is she going to own up to it, saying something like she thought Alec was 'playing dumb' to try and not be a threat and she was afraid he'd suddenly emerge towards the end.  I see why she wanted Keith to stay in so he could help defeat Jon in challenges, but it might backfire on her, since she's pretty good too (and so is Baylor) and now they have Keith to compete with. 

 

I'm rooting for Natalie and she's getting a pretty decent edit, so maybe it will work out for her.  I think if she has a chance to win, she does need to try and keep Baylor and Missy if possible, so they can't vote for each other and the jury is unlikely to vote for either (though Missy may get Jon's vote).  She could try to keep Jon and Jaclyn, so they too couldn't vote for each other, but I'd be worried the sausage fest at Ponderosa would vote for Jon (though its possible if Jaclyn argues well enough at FTC, she could siphon off a vote or two).

[millennium]

 

 the sausage fest at Ponderosa

 

was this some kind of reward?   I must have missed it. 

 

;)

[ProfCrash]

It's almost like...nobody thinks of her as an independent player: discusses the game with her without Jon, takes her on rewards without Jon, cares about her at all except as an extension of Jon.  What an entitled princess to find this obnoxious!

 

A decent number of people in Tribal have said that she never initiated a conversation or continued a conversation with them so why would they talk game with her? For the most part, the people making this claim have been men, Keith, Wes, Alec. Reed and Josh both said, and she agreed with them that they had talked to her and had been polite and inclusive. I get the feeling that Jaclyn has acted like the entitled Princess and that she has not been willing to talk with people who are outside of her normal social circle. So I think she is seen as an extension of Jon because that is what she has made herself into. If she is not going to talk to people, why should they continue to try and engage her?

 

For Jaclyn to be seen as an independent player, she has to actually make herself available to discuss strategy. So far, she has not. And she has owned up to it. She wants to talk to Jon and make decisions with him alone. Heck, we have barely seen her talking to Nat or Baylor or Missy about strategy.

 

And she does flip her vote for every slight she sees. She flipped on the Neanderthals and she wanted to flip on Missy/Baylor/Natalie. If she doesn't get her way, then she wants to vote out someone who is responsible for depriving her. She already has a track record of this so I have no idea why Missy didn't take her on the reward and make sure that their alliance stayed strong.

 

As for her out when Jon had immunity, why? Jaclyn is actually a good goat to take to the finals. Do you really think Wes, Alec, Josh, Reed, or Jeremy would vote for her? She complained about Wes and Alec, tried to toss Reed and John into the Neanderthal mix but had to back down when they called her on that at tribal. Her little temper tantrum prevented Reed from being able to campaign. I am sorry, but Jaclyn and Baylor are the best people to take to a final three. Neither has the respect of the jury.

 

Toss in that voting her out moves Jon to align with Keith and Alec on the next vote and you have a perfectly good reason for not voting out Jaclyn. Then add in the idol that Jon will use next week and you have an even better reason for not voting out Jaclyn.

[peachmangosteen]

And she does flip her vote for every slight she sees. She flipped on the Neanderthals and she wanted to flip on Missy/Baylor/Natalie.

 

I'm not so sure she definitively wanted to flip on Natalie/Missy/Baylor. She wanted to discuss it. I think if she really wanted to flip then her and Jon would have done it, because I believe Jon would've ended up deferring to her again, which he did when they flipped on the men for the Jeremy alliance. 

 

If she doesn't get her way, then she wants to vote out someone who is responsible for depriving her. She already has a track record of this so I have no idea why Missy didn't take her on the reward and make sure that their alliance stayed strong.

 

I definitely agree with this. I thought Missy not taking Jaclyn was astonishingly stupid. It made no sense whatsoever not to because Jaclyn is clearly someone who would be both annoyed by this and understand what it meant strategically. And Natalie would easily understand why it was smarter to not take her.

Edited December 9, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Wings]

Jaclyn=goat.  Yes.  

[peachmangosteen]

I'd say they're all goats except Natalie, Keith (inexplicably!), and Jon (also inexplicably!).

[blackwing]

And let's remember that when Jaclyn was on the outs in original Coyopa she was all but invisible. We were never shown her attempting to do anything to save herself or even strategizing at all. I honestly can't remember Jaclyn even having many TH's at that point during the game.

Once the women's alliance fell apart, I think she was smart to remain in the background.  She appeared to be a physical threat amongst the women, she did well on that push each other off the floating raft challenge (where Baylor got hit in the face) and she could have been perceived as a threat.  But she sat back and let them pick off others who were more outspoken.

 

While I agree that it'd be difficult for a couple to make a final 2 or final 3, it's happened before (Rob and Amber).  I don't think she "needs" to make a move on Jon, and if she does, I would hope she would consult with him and they make a decision about who has a better chance in the final vote.  Frankly, I think Jon has a better chance.  He might be disliked by a few but at least he has played his game and done well in challenges.  Even if Jaclyn joined with others and voted out Jon, I highly doubt it would be considered "her" move.  It'd be considered Natalie's and Jaclyn would get no credit for it.  Unfortunately for her, I don't think anyone will ever view her as anything except Jon's second vote.

[Wings]

I'd say they're all goats except Natalie, Keith (inexplicably!), and Jon (also inexplicably!).

 

 

I can see this, maybe.  Keith can claim winning challenges as can Jon.  Not sure either can claim strategist though.  Jon would try but the jury knows about Natalie and Jaclyn telling him to play his idol so his planned lie won't work!  

Once the women's alliance fell apart, I think she was smart to remain in the background.  She appeared to be a physical threat amongst the women, she did well on that push each other off the floating raft challenge (where Baylor got hit in the face) and she could have been perceived as a threat.  But she sat back and let them pick off others who were more outspoken.

 

While I agree that it'd be difficult for a couple to make a final 2 or final 3, it's happened before (Rob and Amber).  I don't think she "needs" to make a move on Jon, and if she does, I would hope she would consult with him and they make a decision about who has a better chance in the final vote.  Frankly, I think Jon has a better chance.  He might be disliked by a few but at least he has played his game and done well in challenges.  Even if Jaclyn joined with others and voted out Jon, I highly doubt it would be considered "her" move.  It'd be considered Natalie's and Jaclyn would get no credit for it.  Unfortunately for her, I don't think anyone will ever view her as anything except Jon's second vote.

 

 

 

I agree.  My previous post about Jaclyn blindsiding Jon was not a serious one, really.  I just meant she would have to do that to gain any respect; she cannot win. 

 

Rob and Amber didn't enter as a couple; they became one on the show.  Slight difference but still couples are usually the target when that happens.