S29.E09: Gettin' To Crunch Time

[Cutty]

I wish that woman who buried Special Agent Phil's swim trunks would show up and bury Missy's fringed bikini. Stupidest swimsuit ever.

 

Oh god yes. That thing is so unflattering.

 

It's kind of rare for it to work out this way but I remember thinking the cast was terrible after watching the first episode. Nothing has changed in the meantime. If anything it's worse than I originally thought. When you cast John Rocker you can't be surprised when your season absolutely blows. 

[Pattycake2]

As soon as I heard Natalie explain giving away the reward by saying We wanted to reward those who showed loyalty to us (or something along those lines), I wondered if there would be any chance that Jon and Jaclyn would wake up  that Natalie and Jeremy were the group leaders and that they were expendable.  Loyalty to Us?  All hail Jeremy and Natalie.  It  didn't appear so at the time, but added to Jon realizing that Jeremy knew he had an idol and Reed creating chaos with his info on Keith, this show just went from a pagonging to a real competition. 

 

At some point, I expect someone to get Missy out, maybe it'll be Baylor who is promised the final three and not realizing she is being purposely taken to final tribal as cannon fodder.  That would be sweet!

 

I though the Josh/Reed interaction was also sweet.

[Cutty]

I will say that I think Jeremy's gameplay is way overrated. A lot of that stems from the fact that he gives good confessionals, but he made so many mistakes. I'm still not clear why he kept pressing Jon about the idol. Jon was already threatened by him. He only went with him last week because of Jac and he's been saying for weeks no one can beat Jeremy's story in the end. Jeremy just totally overplayed his hand there.

 

That being said it was probably a week too soon, and I still don't understand why Missy went along with it. She could have gotten to F6 and had a lock F4 with either pair (J/J or Natalie/Jeremy). Just mapping out the numbers it's still J/J & M/B with the Fart Bros on the other side with an idol and Reed and Natalie likely in the middle. At the very least they should have flushed Keith's idol this week and gone after Jeremy next when the numbers would have been more locked up.

[jumper sage]

I think Natalie is playing a much more strategic game than we're being shown.  I wish we had more talking heads from her (and this is coming from someone who could not stand the Twinnies on AR).

Right?  Now I know that Nadyia is the crazy one and I love Natalie.

[cooksdelight]

If J/J were smart, and a little more self-aware, they would have refused the reward, saying that no, you owe us nothing. But then again, the bunch aligned with them, Missy & Baylor, Reed, are not very bright. Not smart enough to figure out they are going to need to boot J/J soon, otherwise they can kiss the million goodbye.

[blackwing]

Hate Reed.   Hate anyone who goes through other people's bags.    Talking about it like you're so fucking precious doesn't make it any better.

Agreed.  Count me among those who think it's wrong to search people's stuff.  Even if it's technically permitted by the rules, it just seems dirty to me.  Especially since he said he was purposely trying to cause trouble.  And I agree with the way he was telling the others about it, trying to make himself sound so innocent.  I can't stand his voice, it makes my ears bleed.  He's all, I thought it was my bag, but it was actually Keith's, and look what I found.  Not believable in the least.  First off, that piece of paper was folded, it'd be pretty easy to recognise right away that it wasn't your bag from seeing things that aren't yours even if he supposedly "accidentally" picked up the wrong bag.  Then he steals the clue?  

 

I thought you weren't allowed to steal anything of anyone else's.  There was discussion last time with Woo picking up the clue that fell out of Spencer's pants after Woo "helpfully" picked them up for him.  I guess it was permitted since it "dropped out on its own".  But in this case, the clue was actually in Keith's possession in his bag.  

 

Can't stand Reed even more after this episode.  And I get that Josh is the only jury member, but did we have to be treated to so many dramatic reaction shots of him?  Even when he doesn't speak he annoys me.

[mojoween]

Reed's cover story was that he thought he was going through Julie's bag, not his own.

[cooksdelight]

 

I thought you weren't allowed to steal anything of anyone else's

 

You're not supposed to. But this season has been so boring (to me) thus far, maybe production decided to let it go. More rule bending going on than normal.

[henripootel]

If J/J were smart, and a little more self-aware, they would have refused the reward, saying that no, you owe us nothing.

 

If Natalie had been smarter, she wouldn't have given the reward away, she'd have offered to.  The distinction is slight but significant.  If someone gives you a gift, it'd be churlish of them to assume 'you owe them'.  You didn't ask for it, and their assumption that this incurrs a debt on your part is more than questionable.

 

If they offer it now, you can either accept it or decline.  If you accept it, this would imply a debt (IMO).  If you decline, hey, they offered, and that's not nothing.  And they get to eat anyway.

You're not supposed to. But this season has been so boring (to me) thus far, maybe production decided to let it go. More rule bending going on than normal.

 

No way this is happening without the producer's consent.  I mean hell, it's making the edit, so it's now a 'fair move'.  If it were flat-out illegal, we'd never see it - they'd step in, sort it out as best they could, and we'd never know it ever happened. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by henripootel

[SlackerInc]

I don't think Reed was ever locked into the guys alliance or they to him.  They were Josh's crew and Reed just attached himself to them once they merged.   

 

It can't be said enough what a dumb move it is to give up rewards/immunity on this show.  The desired result is never achieved.  Missy obviously did not appreciate Jeremy & Nat's attempt to build loyalty with J & J either.  Every single person out there saw through it.  I thought it would work for at least one tribal though!  Despise Missy but getting Jeremy out was good for her game.  

 

I disagree.  I thought in the moment that it seemed like a very smart thing for Jeremy and Natalie to do, to give up their reward to cement their alliance.  It didn't work out for them, but I think in many seasons past it would have helped cement some alliances that instead came apart as hungry people sat back at camp feeling grumpy.

 

I also thought it was smart on Jon's part (in contrast to Keith) that he burned the idol instructions.  I guess he memorized the gist of them first.  Which, jeez, those are long: what all is on there?

 

I do hope Keith was aware that it was legal for other players to rifle through his possessions (something I was not aware of before this season after watching the show since the beginning).  Otherwise that move "blindsided" him (which is a better use of the term than the way he and Wes are using it; personally, I think it should be reserved for situations like Jeremy, where someone thinks they are part of the dominant alliance and gets voted out by complete stealth and surprise).

 

So Keith, Wes, and Alec had some kind of sub-alliance within the minority that wanted to sacrifice Reed?

[JerseyGirl]

Word. I'm shocked there isn't already a rule against that.

 

Well they did go through Julie's bag for the trail mix.

 

I'm against going through people's bags on the show.

[ElleryAnne]

I thought you weren't allowed to steal anything of anyone else's.

 

 

I wonder if the clue, like the food Julie stashed, were considered fair game for anything that happens since they're not technically their personal belongings.  Unlike, say, a person's socks that they brought from home and which another player would never be able to throw into a fire. Or, well, the show's always been fuzzy on things like that.

 

I though the Josh/Reed interaction was also sweet.

 

 

So did I.  I get more annoyed when there's eye-rolling and exaggerated smirks at tribal than a little gesture of affection.  But then, I'm also not really bothered by J&J's PDA's, although I think it's not smart game-play.

 

I still don't understand why Missy went along with it. She could have gotten to F6 and had a lock F4 with either pair (J/J or Natalie/Jeremy).

 

 

I agree that's the way it would have played out.  My guess is that Missy didn't see it that way, though, and thought that after J&J were given the reward, it was an indication that those four were tight and she and Baylor were 5 and 6 in that alliance.  I think M/B have had a lock on F3/F4 spots either way (unless someone in that tribe wakes up and starts splitting the remaining couples like they should, but we didn't get Survivor Genius Edition this season), and still have a couple of different ways to ensure those spots.  I don't think she had to flip on Jeremy to protect herself, but if she read the room differently, I don't see it hurting her odds overall.  

 

So Keith, Wes, and Alec had some kind of sub-alliance within the minority that wanted to sacrifice Reed?

 

 

I think they just wanted to make sure enough votes went to Reed so that Keith's idol wouldn't have to be played and Natalie had told them earlier that the others would be voting for Reed. So Reed was just the unlucky one there.  If the others were going against Alec instead, Keith and Wes would have pulled Reed in and sacrificed Alec instead to keep the others from smoking out Keith's idol. 

[iMonrey]

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in again! I was not looking forward to watching Jeremy's smug talking heads for the next six episodes or however many are left, and now, thankfully, I can sit back and enjoy the rest of the season. Gotta give it to them, they really fooled me, because I was convinced Jeremy was getting the winner's edit since day 1. 

 

Sorry, I still don't think Natalie's all that great. She mouthed off to John Rocker unnecessarily, she was a snot about volunteering to go to Exile Island, she seems just as whiny and annoying to me as when she was on Amazing Race. People don't change that drastically - I think she's just been getting a better edit lately. The fact that she aligned herself with Jeremy doesn't improve my opinion of her either because that guy has struck me as being intolerably arrogant since this season started.

 

Whether or not it was the smartest move for Jon and Jaclyn is another matter, but as long as Jeremy is gone, I don't care.

 

Some of this was confusing though. I'm not sure I understand who got to decide who went to Exile Island - Probst seemed to indicate that Natalie and Jeremy still had a say in it even though they traded places with Jon and Jaclyn, yet it looked like Jon and Jaclyn were discussing it with Reed, Alec and Baylor. I get that maybe Baylor wanted Jeremy to find the idol, but would Natalie and Jeremy be up for that after they just sacrificed their reward? Would Jon want that knowing Jeremy would not find the idol, after giving his reward to him? Confused.

 

Also, kind of strange that Reed chose to look through Keith's bag. Why did he even suspect Keith had an idol? We're missing some important information here. Also not sure why Keith, Wes and Alec decided to vote for Reed. Makes sense if they knew the other six were going to split the vote between Keith and Reed, but how would they know that? Did they overhear? Did someone tell them? Maybe they were actually in on the plot to vote out Jeremy.

 

I really don't give a damn who goes through whose stuff. You don't want someone knowing you have an idol, then either make sure it's in your pocket at all times or bury it somewhere. It's not like this doesn't happen all the time. And even Jon was smart enough to burn the paper that comes with the idol - which, by the way, proves a point I made earlier: the next time someone tries to parlay a fake idol, whoever they're trying to fool need only ask to see the certificate of authenticity. Anyone can make a fake idol, even if it's "just a stick." Nobody can fake the scroll with the rules on it. 

[Lamb18]

I think Reed went idol hunting in Keith's bag because Keith went to Exile Island and that's where the clues for idols have been found.  Jeremy probably took his stuff with him to EI so Reed couldn't go through his bag. For all we know he went through Jon's stuff, too, while Jon was eating sandwiches, but since there was nothing to find it wasn't aired.  Natalie was in camp, so he couldn't go through her bag.  I can't remember if there's anyone else still in the game who's been to Exile Island. And Reed would know about the clues because Josh was there and he probably told Reed about them.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Lamb18

[Gummo]

I seem to be in a minority on a lot of issues:

 

1. I'm enjoying the hell out of this season!  You can talk about "horrible people" all you want but there's no sadistic psychos, no one with delusions of Godhood, no weird semi-catatonic old ladies in Scouting uniforms.  Most of this season's players actually seem to know the game, even if they're too stupid, tired and/or hungry to play it properly.

 

2. And that's even more fun!  Weird moves, premature moves, paranoia, flippers, floppers, alliances that last all of 10 minutes -- this is great, great stuff.

 

3. IIRC, it was NOT allowed for people to go through other people's stuff, or steal other people's stuff, until Rupert stole the shoes in his first appearance, and the producers thought it was so effing "cute."  Everything changed right there, and Survivor got a lot more invasive and sleazy.

 

4. Getting rid of Jeremy now made no sense, no matter how I parse it.  And that's good!  That means anything can happen now.

 

5. I never expected Natalie to be one of my favorites after her exploits on TAR, but she's kicking some serious ass, both in challenges, and in the social game.  I hope she can make it far.

 

6. If those people have ANY brains at all, Jon or Jaclyn go next.

[AuntShirley]

3. IIRC, it was NOT allowed for people to go through other people's stuff, or steal other people's stuff, until Rupert stole the shoes in his first appearance, and the producers thought it was so effing "cute."  Everything changed right there, and Survivor got a lot more invasive and sleazy.

 

Rupert may have been the first Survivor thief, but going through someone's bag dates all the way back to S2, when Tina rifled through Kel's bag during beef jerky-gate. She mentioned it as the moment she most regretted in the game during FTC.

[Gummo]

 

Rupert may have been the first Survivor thief, but going through someone's bag dates all the way back to S2, when Tina rifled through Kel's bag during beef jerky-gate. She mentioned it as the moment she most regretted in the game during FTC.

 

Thanks for the reminder! I have never rewatched a Survivor season, so I don't remember a lot of details. 

 

OK, so the game started off sleazy and invasive.  All the better.

[henripootel]

Rupert may have been the first Survivor thief, but going through someone's bag dates all the way back to S2

 

Which speaks to Winston's point - I was pretty sure that the original guidelines for contestants (that somebody back on TWoP read) specifically said 'no stealing'.   Not so sure about searching each other's stuff but if my recollection is correct, the only real answer seems to be 'the rules are the rules until the producers think 'this is just gold!''.

 

This isn't the only clear example of this, so I think the only really inviolate rule left is 'you can't steal idols'.  This makes sense as that would get out of hand very quickly. 

[Pattycake2]

Alex and Mookie went through Yau Man's bag and found his fake idol.  This is small stuff compared to creating a fake grandma.  

[iMonrey]

I wonder if anyone on the jury sitting there watching to votes being read has ever jumped up and yelled "Fuck YEAH!" the way I did when I was watching this on TV. I bet somebody has, or come close to it.

[henripootel]

This is small stuff compared to creating a fake grandma.

I've never seen Fairplay's seasons but I've never understood why everyone thinks this was so reprehensible.  I mean far be it from me to defend Fairplay's worthless ass, but he wasn't being cruel or demeaning (insofar as 'dead grandma' is concerned), wasn't breaking any rules I know of, and lying isn't out of bounds on this show.  I think I know why Probst thinks this was a super-low tactic - apparently Fairplay fooled the producers too.  But fuck Probst, he's hardly a paragon of truth himself.  

I'm with you on that.  No Philips, Brandons, Lisas...

 

Thirded.  I find the 'big moves / big name' bullshit tiresome.  I was honestly surprised by the vote on this episode, and felt a bit bad for the guy who got booted.  Been a while since I've felt anything other than 'manipulated' so kudos to the editors on this one.

[valandsend]

Finally, while I didn't like Jeremy for several reasons, his body was rockin' those boxer briefs during the reward challenge like no one's business. I was shocked he didn't get the bulge blur of doom like most guys. I eagerly await the screen captures and videos. I almost felt sorry for him being voted out after giving up the reward.

What happened to his swim trunks? Anybody know? But yeah, I was surprised that we didn't see the "bulge blur" given the way Little Jeremy was jumping around.

[Lingo]

I wonder if anyone on the jury sitting there watching to votes being read has ever jumped up and yelled "Fuck YEAH!" the way I did when I was watching this on TV. I bet somebody has, or come close to it.

 

Apparently Josh did let out some sort of audible shout or gasp, because you can see Jeremy and Josh laughing about it in the Ponderosa video this week.  I suppose they edited the sound out.

[wrestlesflamingos]

I can't bring myself to care about the looting. When I'm out with other people, I keep an eye on my bag and don't leave it unattended. I openly worry about thieves. My bias is considered prudent since I live in a highly populated area. I'm baffled as to why it's expected that the survivor sample, fewer people but people with a known desire for money or attention, is somehow more trustworthy than the general public? I don't even see it as a moral issue. The premise is they are castaways or game show contestants. All's fair in a survival scenario and what's the ethical responsibility to a game show? It's starting to feel like filler for the bland personalities.

[SlackerInc]

Gotta give it to them, they really fooled me, because I was convinced Jeremy was getting the winner's edit since day 1.

 

 

I absolutely loathe the "winner's edit" trope, so I feel schadenfreude every time such speculators get bamboozled.

 

I'm enjoying the hell out of this season!  You can talk about "horrible people" all you want but there's no sadistic psychos, no one with delusions of Godhood, no weird semi-catatonic old ladies in Scouting uniforms.  Most of this season's players actually seem to know the game, even if they're too stupid, tired and/or hungry to play it properly.

 

 

I'm with ya, Gummo.

[Pattycake2]

I've never seen Fairplay's seasons but I've never understood why everyone thinks this was so reprehensible.

 

 

It was a great moment and a terrible one at the same time.  Here's a link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goNuWLSurLs

[ctkat1]

Natalie is the only one worth rooting for, although Reed is showing signs of some game play and could swing me around.

Alex, Wes, Keith- nope (though Keith is playing the game, and was smart not to use his Idol)

Jon and Jaclyn- haven't played the social game well, are far too comfortable in their current position

Baylor and Missy- so, so, so annoying

This season is so boring.

[Lantern7]

True, there aren't any Section 8 cases (Philip, Brandon) or "love to hate" people (Russell), but it's hard to root for darn near anybody this season. Makes me hope for a more lively S30.

[blackwing]

This is small stuff compared to creating a fake grandma.

I've never seen Fairplay's seasons but I've never understood why everyone thinks this was so reprehensible.  I mean far be it from me to defend Fairplay's worthless ass, but he wasn't being cruel or demeaning (insofar as 'dead grandma' is concerned), wasn't breaking any rules I know of, and lying isn't out of bounds on this show.  I think I know why Probst thinks this was a super-low tactic - apparently Fairplay fooled the producers too.  But fuck Probst, he's hardly a paragon of truth himself.

I thought it was particularly awful.  He did have a grandma but she wasn't sick and she didn't die.  He was obviously trying to manipulate people into feeling sorry for him because his grandmother died while he was off playing Survivor.  True, he didn't break any rules, and lying happens all the time on the game, but for me, the part about it that was so awful was that he was trying to use the supposed death of a family member to get ahead in the game.  For me there's a certain line you shouldn't cross.  There's a little bit of karma and superstition there too. 

 

At this point, Natalie is my favourite.  I still like Jon and Jaclyn, even though their move this week wasn't smart and made me like them a bit less.  As for the others, I greatly dislike Alec, have mild dislike of Reed and am fairly indifferent on the rest.  It's weird, usually by this point someone is given the "villain edit" even if the things they do aren't necessarily that villainous, and I don't really see one at all here.  Alec has been shown doing the most hateful things but last night he was barely on.

[mojoween]

I feel like Keith doesn't even know when he spits. My dad had a tobacco-chewin' friend and it was second nature to him. It seems like every interview Keith gives, I can see the imaginary spittoon.

[truthaboutluv]

I wonder if anyone on the jury sitting there watching to votes being read has ever jumped up and yelled "Fuck YEAH!" the way I did when I was watching this on TV. I bet somebody has, or come close to it.

 

 

There have been plenty of "holy crap" reactions from the jury just maybe not vocally but their facial and physical reactions say it all. Josh definitely pulled the "what the hell" shocked face last night, I remember Malcolm and Reynold during Fans vs. Favorites II cracking up with each other over Andrea's blindside, the jury last season were all openly laughing and falling over themselves during the Top 5 Tribal Council when Kass and Trish were going at it. And I don't think anyone can forget Eliza's epic "what the hell" reaction and face to Ozzy's blindside during the first Fans vs. Favorites. 

 

I think I know why Probst thinks this was a super-low tactic - apparently Fairplay fooled the producers too.  But fuck Probst, he's hardly a paragon of truth himself.

 

 

He didn't really though. Mark Burnett confirmed that they were pretty suspicious of Fairplay's story immediately and it didn't take much for them to confirm that he was full of shit, since they're not cut off from all devices, phones, etc. unlike the contestants. They just figured they'd let him play out his lie because Survivor is after all "outwit, outplay and outlast."

[Ms Blue Jay]

I will say that I think Jeremy's gameplay is way overrated.

 

Who is overrating Jeremy's gameplay?  I'm not seeing that at all.  He was my favourite player, not the player I'd say was the best.  He was literally outplayed, so he's one of the worst players (unfortunately for me).

 

I kept thinking about YauMan's bag being rifled through and thought I was imagining it, so thanks for confirming.  

 

I would prefer Philip and Brandon over these people I think.  I have no idea who Lisa is.  

Edited November 20, 2014 by Ms Blue Jay

[truthaboutluv]

I would prefer Philip and Brandon over these people I think.

 

 

YMMV but I'd take boring any day over the nutty psycho who was so scary, one of the players hid the machete for fear of Brandon's slitting their throats when they slept.

[Wandering Snark]

Outwit, Outplay, Outlast, Out Seach Through People's Personal Property just doesn't have the same ring to it...

[SHOgirl]

I think the Keith/Missy "drama" is way overplayed. Keith did help her up out of the mud. Their relationship can't be that bad.

I've seen discussions here about Keith being a "hick" (or was it "redneck" or "good old boy?"). Anyway, I've known plenty of his type in my life being a native Southerner and believe that he would help Missy up out of the mud even if they didn't have a friendly relationship. While I'm a city mouse, my husband is a country mouse and he would break his neck getting to me before I opened a door for myself. And God forbid I try to put gas in my car. For the most part, country Southern folk are raised to be polite, Keith's role (was he participating?) in the fart fest notwithstanding. I'm not saying they aren't friendly. I'm simply saying he would probably help her even if they weren't. Or, hell, for all I know, Keith will be her fourth ex-husband.

[Never Again]

I think there's a difference between going through Julie's bag and going through Keith's. With Julie, they knew there was trail mix missing, something was taken that belonged to them all, and they were entitled to look for it. With Keith, that's just violating someone's private property. It's like if you came to my house for dinner, I'm obviously not going to rifle through your handbag, but if I had $500 on the dresser and it went missing while you were there, I would feel totally justified to look through your things. I think in survivor they have this one thing that is private, and that's their bag of stuff.<br />The producers are desperate for people to find and use these idols, well you gotta give the people a place to keep them until needed. They can hardly dig holes or climb trees to hide them and then go grab them to take to tribal without being noticed. And keeping it in their pocket is not going to work as it can fall out during many of the challenges, or even wash out to sea in one of the swimming or diving ones. If there's no place to keep the idol hidden, then there's no reason to bother to find one, because it will hurt your game more than help it if you get found out.

[Never Again]

Want to add that though I'm no fan of Jonny FairPlay, I thought it was a great move on his part. It got him further in the game, which was the point. That's the ONLY point in survivor, get as far as you can however you can, as long as it's not illegal or endangering someone else. (Or breaking into their private property lol) Totally in keeping with "outwit". Listen you have thirty days to play this game for a million dollars. That is a lot of money. Supposedly his grandma thought it was funny. If my own grandma were still here, and I came home with a million dollars by pretending she had passed away, she'd be thrilled! He didn't kill her! He PRETENDED she was gone. Big deal. Kids will say that to the teacher just to explain why they didn't do their homework.

[needschocolate]

I don't condone going through someone else's bag, and I don't condone lying either.  However, both are, apparently, allowed in this game.  I was thinking that it was odd that people would make a fuss over going through someone's bag, but little fuss is made if someone lies (and I am one of those people - I didn't like Reed looking in the bag but I don't get bothered by people lying or backstabbing).  Then I realized that lying is like bluffing in poker, but looking through someone's bag is like looking at someone else's cards in poker.  Poker players don't get mad if someone bluffs, it is expected, but they would get mad if someone looked at their cards - that would be cheating.  Still, it is odd that this is where I draw the line - it is okay to lie and backstab, but not okay to look in a bag that would normally be expected to just contain clothes, no valuables. 

 

Want to add that though I'm no fan of Jonny FairPlay, I thought it was a great move on his part. It got him further in the game, which was the point. That's the ONLY point in survivor, get as far as you can however you can, as long as it's not illegal or endangering someone else. (Or breaking into their private property lol) Totally in keeping with "outwit". Listen you have thirty days to play this game for a million dollars. That is a lot of money. Supposedly his grandma thought it was funny. If my own grandma were still here, and I came home with a million dollars by pretending she had passed away, she'd be thrilled! He didn't kill her! He PRETENDED she was gone. Big deal. Kids will say that to the teacher just to explain why they didn't do their homework.

 

I would have preferred it if the other players would have voted him out "so that he could talk to his family about his grandmother's passing." It would have been among the greatest examples of Karma - up there with Drew being voted out when the only reason his tribe went to TC was because he threw the challenge. 

[Hera]

Count me in as someone else who is enjoying this season. I was expecting Jeremy to coast to the final once Josh was out, but it appears that this season, being overtly strategic gets you voted out. This does not bode well for Jon and Jaclyn.

I don't see how this was a good move for Jon. He's now flipped on the first two jury members in consecutive weeks, and he's the biggest target left in the game. Then again these people are pretty dumb so anything's possible.

It's true, though I think Josh and Jeremy are more likely to respect Jon's game than they are to resent it. But you (and everyone else who has said similar things) are right that it's going to be hard for Jon and Jaclyn to proceed since the only people whose trust they haven't broken are Missy and Baylor and four is not a majority at this point. If I were the remaining players, I would try to band together to get rid of one person from each pair at least. And since Jeremy told Natalie his suspicions about Jon's idol, Natalie should be campaigning to engineer an idol flush, as well.

 

I don't think Keith is any huge Survivor mastermind, but I don't think he's a complete idiot either.

He seems to have a reasonable tactical mind when it comes to votes and the idol, but I think that he—like a lot of players—forgets that it's a social game. Any player who doesn't make an effort to talk to other players is dumb. This goes for Jaclyn as well, though I agree with the point Jon made at Tribal Council about her not talking to Josh's alliance: the reason why Alec, Wes, and Keith should have kept talking to her while Jon was at Exile Island is because they needed to keep her on their side. At that point in time, they needed Jaclyn more than she needed them (since she had the option of switching to Jeremy's alliance) so the onus was on them to check in with her and not the other way round. However, while she may have not have needed to make the first move in that particular instance, it's certainly not in her interest in the long-run not to talk to other players.

 

Jeremy gives up his reward for them, spends two days at Exile for nothing, then J/J vote him out.  Stupid.  And so typical of Survivor.  Whenever anyone does anything nice for someone with rewards, it bites them in the ass. 

It can't be said enough what a dumb move it is to give up rewards/immunity on this show.  The desired result is never achieved.  Missy obviously did not appreciate Jeremy & Nat's attempt to build loyalty with J & J either.  Every single person out there saw through it.  I thought it would work for at least one tribal though!  Despise Missy but getting Jeremy out was good for her game.  

I was reminded of Brenda in Caramoan. She gave up her family reward (and Dawn's, since they were initially going to share it) so that everyone else on the tribe could spend time with their visiting relatives. It was a nice thing to do, but it made everyone go, "Brenda hasn't pissed anyone off and has just done something for which we should all be grateful—she's a jury threat and needs to go, pronto," and was voted out that week. To be honest, I think Brenda may have been in a no-win situation. If she hadn't let everyone else spend time with their families, she ran a risk of being branded as selfish and could have pissed someone off enough to send her home. As it was, Dawn got pretty upset about it and it made everyone worry about how good her social game was, so she was out anyway.

 

However in Jeremy and Natalie's case, I don't think Jon and Jaclyn would have thought twice about Jeremy and Natalie enjoying the reward. Having both of them give up their places was a transparent attempt at currying favor. If they were going to insist on giving Jon and Jaclyn something, I think a better thing to do would have been for one of them to give up their spot. That way, you've still done that pair a favor and one of them gets to be at the reward, bonding with people and making sure no one is plotting against the alliance and the other one is doing the same back at camp.

 

I didn't mind Reed going through Keith's bag.  This is for $1M.  It's not against the rules.  Keith was stupid to keep that paper in there.  Why not just keep the idol in there, too, if you're going to keep proof you have it?  Or keep an eye on your bag if you have important game intel in it.

I didn't have a problem with it either. As others have mentioned, going through people's things has a long history on Survivor and at this point, contestants have to accept it as part of the game. Idols explicitly cannot be stolen since who has possession of the idol matters, but a piece of paper with information on it can be because once you see what's on it, it doesn't matter whether you retain possession of it or not. You can't unsee what what on it. I think this is done partially out of necessity. We know Reed went through Keith's bag deliberately because he admitted to it. But if he had tripped over something and knocked Keith's bag over causing all of its contents to fall out, he might have learned the same information accidentally and there wouldn't be anything that could be done about it. And if you make the concession that people shouldn't be punished for accidentally discovering something (which I think most people would agree is fair), you have to allow for them to find stuff out in less savory ways. Otherwise, the producers would have to make judgments about whether or not a discovery was truly an accident or whether the contestant in question merely tried to make it look like one and would have to decide whether or not to throw the contestant out of the game on the back of that, which seems far more complicated (and with the potential to open the door for lawsuits and more claims of producer interference) than the current system.

 

However, with all of that said, a major part of Survivor is what rules the contestants make for themselves, which varies with the cast. This season, the consensus among the players seems to be that bags are fair game—Julie's certainly was, and only Keith and Wes were bothered by Reed's action. If the group felt that bags should be off-limits (and/or didn't buy Reed's story about thinking Keith's bag was Julie's), then Reed would be facing repercussions to his game from the other players. That seems far more just than trying to bring in a rule that would probably end up being unenforceable anyway.

[Calamity Jane]

Wait, weren't there howler monkeys to root for?  Where did they go??  I can't root for seafood.  

 

If I had to pick a human to cheer for, it would be Natalie, which surprises me greatly.  

 

Does anyone else think Jaclyn looks like Brittany (I think??), the "dumb" cheerleader from Glee?  I can't see anything else now that that crossed my mind.  

[choclatechip45]

 

Why not? I think it was inferred even during the "the guys are gross" segment that they actually get along with Natalie and last night during the Tribal Council discussion, I swear both Keith and Wes mentioned her as one of the women they talk to. And I can see that. Natalie does have something of a tomboy personality about her and comes across as what people would call a guy's girl. So, and especially with how unpredictable this episode was, I wouldn't be so quick to assume she wouldn't work with them if she had to.

Good point. Rocker did say in his exit interviews Natale could fit in with any Major League clubhouse.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Does anyone else think Jaclyn looks like Brittany (I think??), the "dumb" cheerleader from Glee?  I can't see anything else now that that crossed my mind.

 

Oh yes very much.  And they both have incredible bodies.

[Oholibamah]

I agree with another poster that Keith may have wisely concluded that they were going to split the votes between him and Reed to flush out the idol and it's clear with the vote reveal that he, Wes and Alec all decided to vote for Reed. So his plan was probably that in the end, splitting the votes would not matter because with their three votes for Reed, that would be enough to get him voted out. Because if you imagine Jon, Jaclyn and Natalie vote for Keith and then Missy, Baylor and Jeremy vote for Reed, that's a tie. Now throw in Keith's, Wes' and Alec's vote and that's 6 votes for Reed, which would have been more than enough to get him out. I don't think Keith is any huge Survivor mastermind, but I don't think he's a complete idiot either.

 

If Jon, Jaclyn and Natalie vote for Keith and Missy, Baylor and Jeremy vote for Reed, then the best strategy is for Reed, Keith, Alec and Wes to vote out Jeremy 4-3-3. Maybe they didn't trust Reed to go with the plan, but the opposition only had 2 options: split the votes or go flush. If they split the votes, then they should try and win by numbers. If they vote flush, then putting 3 votes on Reed will not sway the vote and one of the 3 of them is going home, possibly with an idol in his pocket. In either scenario, occum's razor dictates that they should have thrown their 3 votes at a member of the opposing alliance, preferably whoever Reed agreed to vote against.

 

It appeared like the vote would have been 6-3-1 had Missy et. al not flipped, sending Keith home with an Idol in his pocket. So while I understand his thought process, he misplayed his cards and potentially alienated an ally.

 

 

 

Hopefully Natalie will join the other alliance after having her own alliance turn on her by voting out Jeremy.  And, although she made several attempts to cement loyalty, everyone knew exactly what she was doing and she did not cement any alliances with her self-sacrifice.

 

Baylor and Missy are hopelessly moronic, and Jaclyn and Jon are playing erratically, but I still prefer them to Alec, Keith and Wes who I find absolutely revolting. They remind me of the Amoeba Boys from PPG and it is disturbing. The best scenario is that Missy et. al and Keith et. al Idol one another out of the game and forget all about Reed and Natalie, who end up in the Final 2. Because, really, they are the only players even remotely likeable or strategic at this point.

 

Unlike, say, a person's socks that they brought from home and which another player would never be able to throw into a fire. Or, well, the show's always been fuzzy on things like that.

 

There's nothing fuzzy about it - destroying another's property is blatantly allowed, filed under Holly v. Dan, Russell v. Jaison and Sandra v. Russell. Stealing personal belongings has also happened (Naonka v. Fabio), but when it comes to Idols the producers intervene (Amanda v. Danielle, Spencer v. Woo, Bill v. Colton).

 

I really see no problem with going through people's stuff. It happens almost every season. Would I want it to happen to me? No, but it's happened so often that I would know better than to leave important shit unattended.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Oholibamah

[henripootel]

Then I realized that lying is like bluffing in poker, but looking through someone's bag is like looking at someone else's cards in poker.  Poker players don't get mad if someone bluffs, it is expected, but they would get mad if someone looked at their cards - that would be cheating.

 

Possibly a bad example - they're not allowed to touch your cards but looking at your cards (if you're fool enough to show them) is merely considered bad form, but not cheating.  

 

This all comes down to the rules, not how we feel about them.  I mean you can hate the Infield Fly rule if you want, but that doesn't change how baseball is played.  So either looking through other folks stuff is allowed or it isn't, and apparently it's allowed.  So where are they gonna go with this?  If you can grub through someone's bag for the HII clue, how about grabbing it out of their hand and running away?  How about grabbing it from them and throwing it straight into the fire (assuming you can't outrun them and read the clue yourself)?  I mean I know this sounds ridiculous, but rules is rules, and 'right' or 'wrong' doesn't enter into it.

[KimberStormer]

I was so flabbergasted by the vote tonight that I was shouting out loud and my roommates thought I had gone crazy; I rush to the boards and it's all "this season sucks".  I'm amazed.  But people loved last season, which I found pretty terrible...  I would rather, 5000 times rather, watch a bunch of recruits playing sloppy than two superfans flip a fucking coin for an idol at the auction when one of them already has the Tyler Perry bullshit idol.

 

It was not the biggest blindside ever, producers.

 

As far as I can recall, it was the biggest blindside of me that Survivor has ever presented.  I saw a lot of seasons after they had aired and so perhaps I would have been equally fooled by some of them...but I had not the slightest inclination that Jeremy would go.  Especially when Jon said "Jeremy has to go this time or next" I thought, "well he will wait till next episode of course, and then Missy will get him out and Jeremy will take the credit and win, that is the Survivor way now" but no!

 

Surely the stupidest part of the whole plan.  J and J shut Wes and Keith out of the decision making, attacked them at tribal, yet made no attempt to flush the idol.  Wes and Keith were clueless, which implies no one even tried to flush the idol.  Were these people recruited?

 

Isn't attacking them...trying to flush the idol?  Make them think they're going after them--Keith plays the idol--Jeremy goes home--2 for one.

 

Yeah, that was a blindside. Jeremy should've turned on Jon. Actually, Jeremy should never have given up his reward. Now he and Natalie look like chumps giving Jon & Jaclyn their gratitude. And Reed should have been smacked for rummaging through Keith's belongings. (Pause while I spit) I get the whole "I'm gonna burn the camp down before I leave" attitude, but there's some shit you should never do. In a perfect world, Probst would have smacked Reed on the hand for that offense.

 

Reed was doing exactly what he should have done.  How many people thought Brenda was an entitled princess (like they think Jaclyn is now, apparently, for wanting to get some basic respect?) for not scrambling?  Going through bags has always, always been allowed.  You don't leave any stone unturned if you're trying to not go home.  I thought it was silly to be mad at Lisa when she found Malcolm's idol, I thought it was silly to be mad at Woo last season, I think it's silly to be mad at Reed now.

 

If J/J were smart, and a little more self-aware, they would have refused the reward, saying that no, you owe us nothing. But then again, the bunch aligned with them, Missy & Baylor, Reed, are not very bright. Not smart enough to figure out they are going to need to boot J/J soon, otherwise they can kiss the million goodbye.

 

Although I suppose they didn't plan to get out Jeremy at that point, I think it worked very well.  Who would you trust more than the person who you just gave a reward to?  I've heard somewhere that the best way to manipulate people to be on your side is not to do them a favor, but to get them to do a favor for you.  Terrifying, but I feel like this was a good example.

 

I'm with you on that.  No Philips, Brandons, Lisas...

 

Lisa knew how to play the game; if she hadn't been so afraid of Malcolm she probably would have taken it all.  (Also the person you quoted was talking about Lil.)  Skupin (who probably would have actually deserved it, from a gameplay perspective) and Abi were a great pair of goats and Lisa did a great job taking them till she lost her nerve.

[Oholibamah]

As far as I can recall, it was the biggest blindside of me that Survivor has ever presented.  I saw a lot of seasons after they had aired and so perhaps I would have been equally fooled by some of them...but I had not the slightest inclination that Jeremy would go.  Especially when Jon said "Jeremy has to go this time or next" I thought, "well he will wait till next episode of course, and then Missy will get him out and Jeremy will take the credit and win, that is the Survivor way now" but no!

 

Yes. This is one of the first and by far the most successful time in Survivor history that I have been completely blindsided right along with the players. It didn't help that my boyfriend, who had already watched the episode, was egging on my comments about Jeremy's OTT winner's edit, but it was completely unexpected. I actually rolled my eyes at the editors throwing in what I thought was a last-minute red herring to give an alternative to the obvious Reed vote. Even as the votes were being read I thought I was watching some weird vote-splitting voodoo that would still result in Reed going home. But nope.

 

I still hate these people and will probably only half-watch when/if Natalie gets booted, but the post-merge has been fairly interesting thus far.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Oholibamah

[KimberStormer]

"inclination"...is that what I mean?

[millennium]

Reed was doing exactly what he should have done.  How many people thought Brenda was an entitled princess (like they think Jaclyn is now, apparently, for wanting to get some basic respect?) for not scrambling?  Going through bags has always, always been allowed.  You don't leave any stone unturned if you're trying to not go home.  I thought it was silly to be mad at Lisa when she found Malcolm's idol, I thought it was silly to be mad at Woo last season, I think it's silly to be mad at Reed now.

 

 

 

It may be within the rules.  But is it honorable, even in the questionable terms of this game?  No.  Violating someone else's privacy will always be dirty and foul.   I realize we live in a TMZ society where individuals routinely become rich by pawing through other people's underwear drawers, but there is no circumstance that can legitimize that behavior.   Reed knew his actions were despicable, that's why he tried to rationalize it in his confessional and why he lied about it to the others afterward. 

[KimberStormer]

It may be within the rules.  But is it honorable, even in the questionable terms of this game?  No.  Violating someone else's privacy will always be dirty and foul.   I realize we live in a TMZ society where individuals routinely become rich by pawing through other people's underwear drawers, but there is no circumstance that can legitimize that behavior.   Reed knew his actions were despicable, that's why he tried to rationalize it in his confessional and why he lied about it to the others afterward. 

 

See, to me, it's like saying it's reprehensible to shoot people in a video game, because it is in real life.  I'm a very private person myself and even having people over to my house can feel weirdly violating.  I think privacy is an incredibly important thing.  But I feel like sometimes we specifically play games to give ourselves permission to do things that we can't otherwise do.  A sort of catharsis.  Maybe that's even what a game is, rewriting ethics, so that the forbidden becomes the compulsory.  If you hit someone and knock them down in real life, it's an awful thing.  If you're playing football, it's your obligation--you're not being nice by not doing it, you're ruining the game for everyone.  If it were me out there (it's easy for me to say I know) I would rather have everyone playing hard as they can, and not taking it personally, than everyone being polite and genteel, but getting furious when voted out...

 

One thing I forgot to mention: what a weird reward challenge situation this season, where they're all individual challenges before the merge, and all team challenges after!  I really don't like post-merge team rewards--make it an individual challenge and make them pick people to bring.  I appreciate Natalie's bold creativity in mixing it up and not taking the team situation for granted, but that's a lot to ask of people.

[BK1978]

I was shocked seeing Jeremy go but I was happy because I hope this means the end of Natalie as well. 

 

Missy really irks me for some reason, I can't really put my finger on why but she does.