S03.E07: Draw Back Your Bow

[jaytee1812]

Ray Palmer is the creepiest creep of all the creeps. Seriously, Felicity is a woman not a toy, and not something he can buy with shiny things.

[calliope1975]

They also said that they didn't like doing secret identity stuff, so just handwaved all the times when it was blazingly obvious who he is under the hood. I say, if you don't want to write about a masked vigilante with a secret identity who is also a billionaire businessman, then don't write a fucking show about Oliver Queen!

 

Agreed. If TIIC don't want to be bothered with the secret identity stuff, then Oliver needs to go full Tony Stark and quit with the hood and mask that covers .02% of his face.

 

They want the cool visuals but don't want to do the work involved.

Edited November 20, 2014 by calliope1975

[patchwork]

I guess I find it a little hard to believe that an independent and intelligent woman like Felicity could be bought for a dress.  Frankly, I don't get the hype about the dress, but then again, I don't understand high fashion.  She said it was couture but often times couture looks no different to me than any other dress you can get off the rack.  Felicity has worn gowns before which must have been her own and IMO she looked no less attractive than this "couture" one that probably cost at least $5,000.  Do they infuse some sort of brainwashing perfume into these couture dresses?

 

Other than the designer's name couture clothes are all about the quality of material used and the labour involved. It's not something that really translates well on TV.

 

Talking about Oliver being a shareholder reminds me that his guy is supposed to be poor. He's not even TV poor he's billionaire poor, these days he has to gasp horror budget.   

[GirlWednesday]

Agreed. If TIIC don't want to be bothered with the secret identity stuff, then Oliver needs to go full Tony Stark and quit with the hood and mask that covers .02% of his face.

 

They want the cool visuals but don't want to do the work involved.

But I like the pretty pretty that is Stephen Amell.  Let's get real.  Robert Downey JR is no Stephen Amell.  

Give me abs, growly voice, and scruffy face any day!  :P

[paigow]

Manpain paralyzing you? Get back to normal with Extra Strength Managara! Seek medical attention for happy moods lasting longer than 4 hours.

[wonderwall]

You know how we discussed that for the first two seasons Oliver may have denied and buried his feelings for Felicity? Maybe this is what Felicity is doing right now in order to protect herself from getting even more hurt? Just a quick thought. 

[Password]

I'm pretty convinced she is. And everytime Oliver alludes to his feelings, she takes a hit but has decided "conceal, don't feel" is the best approach.

[FireFoxy]

I really liked the episode. Cupid was perfectly deranged and fun, we got OG Team Arrow, Diggle/Oliver, Diggle/Felicity and Oliver/Roy. I really like Ray and I enjoy Raylicity so I have no problem with it. Ray is gorgeous, smart, rich and treats Felicity like his equal. I totally get why she would be overwhelmed by his attention, especially since she truly wants a life outside of Team Arrow and Oliver basically let her go. I've been in her place. In love with someone but not able to be with him and you have two choices... Try to pick up the pieces and move on or drive yourself crazy by thinking about it and shutting down. As much as it sucks to have to do it, it's the only way to keep your sanity. I totally get her actions and they in no way undermine what she feels for Oliver. I do like seeing Oliver be the one to have to pine for her, she deserves it. 

[patchwork]

I've always thought that despite her attraction to him Felicity wrote herself off as not being Oliver's type and tried not to think too much about her feelings for him. It didn't work out well and she still fell in love with him but she's kept to her Don't Even Think About It mentality as much as possible.  

[BkWurm1]

My point - which you are free to disagree with - is that there is a difference between liking these things and accepting them from your boss - even as a loaner.  And I didn't think Felicity would agree to wear such items offered by Ray

 

.

I'd say in 99% of circumstances I would agree with you except that Ray IMO isn't like normal bosses.  He's not even like Oliver because until that kiss and despite her sudden awareness of having "a type" I don't think Felicity saw him at all in a romantic interest.  If Oliver had done the dress and the necklace thing, it would have come with meaning even when/if he had no intention of it having meaning.  What she thought about him in her head would make accepting the use of the dress and necklace inappropriate.  They'd feed in to a fantasy and make her uncomfortable.  But because Ray was just that dude boss who was constantly making over the top meaningless gestures and he was in her mind just her boss and she wasn't thinking of him like that, accepting a perk was of no consequence. 

 

My other point - which was less clear - is not that Ray was necessarily trying to seduce Felicity with the dress and necklace (not consciously, at any rate), but that Felicity should be aware of the appearance of impropriety associated with it and should have a natural distaste of seeing a rich guy showering expensive 'gifts' a la Pretty Woman - even if it's just a loan in her case - from growing up with a beautiful mom in Vegas

 

Again, I would agree with this except for the fact that Ray has proved he's all about the meaningless and careless grand gesture.  I mean her mom is all excited that she just bought herself one of those new smart watches and Ray kind of rudely squashes her excitement in what she had by telling her in a back handed way that its practically obsolete but here, have the new one. 

 

I don't by into the show having shown us why Felicity would make that speech about Ray at dinner, but If we are to believe that she really believes he's not about the money,then accepting the odd perk thrown her way wouldn't have the same kind of connotation that accepting it from another employer would.  Ray is no Tony Stark, but Pepper Potts had no problem taking his money and buying herself a very expensive dress as a gift.   She did worry about crossing a line with a slow dance but accepting her due in the form of fancy clothes didn't phase her at all appearances wise. 

 

When it comes to public opinion, I also hesitate to believe that Felicity puts any stock into it anymore.  She knows it's fine and that she can't be bought with trinkets.  Why should she worry about what other people might be thinking? 

 

Like you said, the EP's probably didn't spend this much time thinking about it and I'm not trying to be argumentative rather, I wanted to explain clearly why IMO those things that if they showed up in 99 other shows I'd be rolling my eyes and shaking my fist at the screen, but in this case, I think the show legitimately avoided the cliché while at the same time cashed in on the subtext o the cliché.  Pretty much having their cake and eating it too. 

[JenMD]

Felicity has worn gowns before which must have been her own and IMO she looked no less attractive than this "couture" one that probably cost at least $5,000.  Do they infuse some sort of brainwashing perfume into these couture dresses?

Heh.  I think the problem might be that a regular, albeit expensive for normal folks, dress was playing the part of a high fashion couture dress.  I believe someone way upthread identified it as a $2,500 Victoria Beckham.  So fancy, but, imo, not necessarily that much more special than other stuff they've put her in (although, iirc, that's a bit more than the usual budget for Felicity's wardrobe).  In show though, it was probably supposed to be much more expensive than other dresses she's worn.

[slayer2]

Well, add Felicity and Roy to my interests this season along with Thea and Malcolm. Was glad to see Thea return this episode and the new guy is cute, glad someone's finally getting kisses. But the show is still disjointed and sad, I still don't get a sense why Team Arrow even bothers working together since they barely seem to like each other. A couple extra minutes watching Diggle, Oliver, Roy and Lyla at the dinner table with Baby Sara would go a long way.  

 

Of course I couldn't help but be reminded when Roy walked in that just last week Diggle was heavily petitioning to throw him in the slammer. I am so not here for Diggle this season, from his "Don't tell Thea the truth" to "Abandon Roy" to "Felicity, stop dating Ray 'cause Oliver has sads." I just can't get behind him at all, everything coming out of his mouth is just the worst lately. Which is part and parcel of why this show is so fucked up IMO. Nobody takes up for anybody any more, there's no honesty even amongst friends. There sure isn't any emotional honesty.

 

Oliver is actually becoming a character I loathe to watch, one of the many improvements Justin Hartley's Oliver Queen had on SA was his characters' ability to be charming to even the most loathsome of villains and villainesses which would have gone a long way in these scenes today. It just seems like all I watched Oliver do was bark at people and throw things for an hour. He doesn't have a personality any more. It's terrrible. Terrible.

 

I'm actually really grateful for the separate storyline that Felicity has at Palmer Technologies because Oliver's misery is sucking the happy out of everyone including her. In her scenes with Ray she gets to be light and fun and happy and I feel like her and Iris on The Flash are fighting the same battle. The silly secrets and dumb choices of the protagonists are trying to drag them down into a murky hell but they are fighting like hell for that buoy. C'mon show lighten the guy up, if he were any darker he'd be a shadow. The show needs to stop taking itself this seriously. I don't even think it was this serious when an army of super-Mirkuru'ed freaks tried to overtake it. At least then it had heart....I mean.....

 

So there it is. For me, Diggle has had an emergency labotomy, Oliver has had his heart removed, Roy has lost his courage so there's Felicity skipping down the yellow brick road with her chain chain chain of fools. Pray for her. Hell, pray for me.

Edited November 20, 2014 by slayer2

[Chaser]

 I wish Felicity had commented on how weird it was for Ray to get her stuff. That being said, he didn't 'buy' her. And she didn't get down on her knees for him. She wasn't compromising who she was as a person just because she wanted to wear a 'couture' dress or an expensive necklace. Taking the dress was odd, but at the same time that girl has a crazy closet and just because we have never seen her swoon over clothes doesn't mean she doesn't on a weekly basis. The necklace? Again, Ray is being weird, but why wouldn't she want the chance to wear it. I would if I could. I would wear it to get my car washed. Also, nothing happened after that date. The kiss only happened because of Oliver shutting himself (and by extension, her down) again.

 

Ray and Felicity's relationship is hard to grasp because up until that kiss, nothing could be viewed as romantic. I got the impression that they had established a comfortable working relationship. They must have been working closely. Everything purely platonic….The problem is we didn't see it happen. I also think thats why she didn't have more of a reaction. This is probably Ray being Ray. Always thinking ahead and not of the human component. Task minded. I would also add that him buying stuff for her is actually in his character. That is a business dinner. He is selling a pitch. Felicity is apart of that pitch. It was a presentation that he was in control of, at least until she took control at dinner. That's why I think he made the comment about keeping it purely platonic after the kiss. He wasn't trying to come on to her no matter how it looked. Unfortunately, it didn't look great.

 

This is where the problem of the season comes into play. The want to hit all these moments, but they are hitting you over the head with them instead of allowing them to happen. They didn't need Ray to buy her a dress or loan her a necklace. But they wanted to give it a Cinderella-aspect. Hey, look how well he treats her! It was poorly done because it came across as obsessive instead.

[Lantern7]

I wound up going out last night, so I didn't catch up with the episode until now. Can't believe I didn't get to see this on DVR immediately, but I had to check out other stuff. If the CW had run an ad for "NO LAUREL WEDNESDAY," I would've stayed home.

 

Sure, the episode had its flaws, and Felicity being in a "Pretty Woman"-type situation (different profession!) is a little icky, especially since I'm comfy shipping her with Barry. But Cupid was a fun villain, Diggle was back in character, and now I know why the show is taking next week off . . . because Ollie will be done punching himself in the balls by then. The first shot of him in two weeks should be spent soaking his groin in an ice bath.

 

Anybody know what "A.T.O.M." stands for? No, I'm not a newbie with DC canon . . . I got giddy hearing Ray talking about "white dwarf stars." I think I smiled as much as I did with the impromptu boxing glove arrow last week.

 

Does the DJ have a name? I'm stumped about what canon could be brought into the mix. I'm guessing/hoping Malcolm seriously wounds him at least in order to be a good dad to Thea.

 

ETA: Does having manpain count as a superpower? That might be the only way Oliver survives against Barry in two weeks' time.

[blackwing]

Anybody know what "A.T.O.M." stands for?

I would guess Armored Tactical Ops Mechsuit.  Probably way off base.

[Moya the Leviathan]

 

If Felicity did not want to wear the dress, wear the necklace or be kissed, she has been shown to be blunt and vocal about telling folks to step off.

 

[soapbox]

Silence is not consent.

[/soapbox]

 

Felicity didn't say anything because the writers did not permit her.  I have a fondness for most of the characters and I don't blame any of them or the actors either.  The writers and producers (aka TPTB) are responsible for the misogyny I see in this episode, and moreover each little bit (R/F, T/DJ boy, C/Tech guy, CEO wife and Lyla) reinforces an overall pattern.

 

[soapbox again]

The economic power dynamic (boss-employee) between Ray and Felicity is not negated by Felicity's hacker skills, her personal  bodyguard squad, or her love of couture. He is still her boss whether she can hack through ARGUS and Homeland Security or a super-villain weapon makes all her clothing transparent.  She is still his employee.  He is permitted to direct and control her reactions as they relate to the economic success of the company. She does not have the same influence on his reactions as they relate to economic success of the company. He decided to put her to work on the co-generation project. She cannot force him to work on her pet projects for the company, even if QC/PT were guaranteed profits.  

  

Unless he's willing to demote himself to her level in the company hierarchy, he can't date her and he can't give her expensive gifts beyond what he would give other valued members of the company as a thank you for their work efforts. Work harassment is about emphasizing the unequal power dynamic (boss-employee in this case), and the dress and the kiss do not make Felicity more equal to Ray economically or socially.   

[/soapbox]

 

Carrie also murdered him straight up.

Indeed. Seems he was a victim of "women controlling their own sexuality" are inevitably evil (a trope of long and storied history).

 

  

Yep, that's pretty misogynistic--dismissing a woman only characterized as boring to one guy and another woman shown to be a tough, resourceful, complex woman who also happens to be a veteran soldier and now black ops agent. Lyla is so ornamental.

What was CEO wife's purpose?  To make a business dinner appear more social so that Ray can invite Felicity as his date rather than as his VP.  Does she say anything in the episode?  She's an object.  However, TPTB get a point for casting an age-appropriate CEO wife.  

I love Lyla.  I want to thank her for her service in Afghanistan.  Making a kid is tough bloody work, so I salute her for that as well.  The black ops thing is liable to get her fridged on this series, so I'm not sure I should congratulate her on that BUT she's ornamental IN THIS EPISODE.  We hear through Diggle that she takes custody of Cupid, but we don't see it.  What we see on screen in this episode is Lyla at the table, definitely not in action. That's why I see both of these as deprecating women

 

PS: Love your avatar. I'm a WW fan, even with the power dynamics of her creators.

[strikera0]

I'm gonna have to go against the grain here and say that this was one of the worst episodes of the series for me. I know this show has always had it's soapy moments and I don't really mind it all that much as long as the writers strike the right balance between them and the action/comicbook elements, but this episode sadly felt a lot like a poorly written soap opera to me. The Cupid storyline was cliched from beginning to end - she was just some deranged chick who started to kill people in cold blood because she fell in love with the Arrow after he saved her once. And of course we're supposed to believe that Oliver would recognize this random girl that he saved in a chaotic mob while Slade's Mirakuru soldiers were setting the whole city on fire. I think this whole storyline would have been more believable to me if the writers had used the Carrie character as the DID in an earlier episode during the first 2 seasons. They could have weaved a rescue storyline that forges a messed up bond between the 2 characters  Sure, it still would have been a cliched storyline, but at least it would have been a more believable one, IMO.

 

As someone who doesn't care for Olicity or Raylicity, it was tedious having to sit through scene after scene of the show telling us (instead of showing!) how much Oliver loves Felicity. It was also tedious having to sit through the insta-romance that is Raylicity -  especially considering that we all know that it's ultimately not going to go anywhere. What made it even worse for me is that the writers have started to give Oliver and Felicity character transplants in the process. Felicity is slowly but surely turning into a shallow ditz and Oliver? He has always been in such good control of his emotions. He didn't lose his shit when he was stranded on an island, watched his mother get slaughtered in front of him or was presented with Sara's dead corpse. So, what does it take to finally break the almighty Queen? It's Felicity kissing another man, of course. He better have an equally strong reaction when he finds out that Thea has been hanging out with Merlyn behind his back. Otherwise, I'm going to cry foul.

 

But sadly, what the writers have been doing to Felicity and Oliver is nothing compared to what they've been doing to Diggle. Diggle used to be such a great character in season 1, but he has been marginalized so badly over the last 30 episodes. It seems as if the majority of his scarce screentime is used to have him prop Olicity these days and he deserves so much better than that. If the writers don't have anything better to offer him anymore, they could just as well write him out and give DR a chance to score a more worthwhile acting job on another show.

 

And don't get me started on the Thea + DJ storyline. I was really hoping that she would finally get a kickass arc of her own, but now we're right back into season 1 territory with her character. That's such a shame because it was completely unnecessary to go there...

 

I know my review sounds very negative, but not everything was bad about this episode. It was great to get a first glimpse of Katana's badass side in the flashbacks and I enjoyed the Oliver/Roy bonding moments. The first sneak peek at Ray's superhero suit was nice, too.

Edited November 21, 2014 by strikera0

[Tangerine]

I don't think Felicity was 'bought' for a dress plus diamonds. I think she was exploring her options, had a good time with Ray at dinner and probably genuinely began to admire him after working with him (which we never got to see any of, but that's another rant.) I don't have an issue with Ray buying Felicity a dress. I love pretty dresses, if somebody bought me a pretty dress because they knew I liked pretty dresses I'd be really flattered.  My uncomfortableness with the situation is the intent behind it. First off, Felicity probably would have gone to dinner with Ray anyways even if he wasn't offering the dress. Second, Ray didn't say anything about needing Felicity there because he needed her business acumen or her intelligence. He wanted her there for entertainment, which is kind of weird. And not only that, but he also wanted her to be dressed a certain way? I just don't see why it was necessary asides from it being a shallow and lazy way for the writers to be like "Look how well he's treating her!"

 

The thing is, I don't dislike Ray either. I totally buy him as a brilliant, single-minded genius who isn't all that socially or emotionally intelligent. I can see him going through the steps in his mind tactically going "I want Felicity to go to this dinner with me. It's pretty fancy. What if she doesn't have anything to wear? Maybe if I buy her a dress just in case." But we're obviously not privy to Ray's inner thoughts, and the way this whole situation had been presented didn't do him any favours.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Tangerine

[statsgirl]

I completely agree about Diggle.  First he's marginalized even in the ARGUS story of Corto Maltese, and then he becomes this bumbling Pandarus.  I wish he had given Oliver a Gibbs slap (upside his head) instead of going to Felicity to ask her to let Oliver have his way in everything.  At least he still has Lyla and little Sara.

 

The DJ is creepy and arrogant.  I wanted Thea to channel her inner Moira to take him down.

 

I did like Oliver and Roy talking about how not okay they both were though.

Team arrow is fractured because Oliver made it that way. Diggle barged back in after sarah died but Felicity quietly separated herself from the emotional satisfaction part of team arrow (Oliver) because oliver being dark and constantly abandoning her was going to destroy her. I was ok that she isn't part of those dinners. It will only draw her back in before she has found herself.

She's going to find herself with Ray on Team A.T.O.M. though, if Diggle keeps helping Oliver in pushing her out of the lair like that.

 

Team Arrow is fractured and it's Oliver who screwed it up because Felicity can't win for losing around him.  If she wants a relationship with him,she can't have it. If she wants to pretend nothing happened like she did at the star of ep3, Oliver gets angry at her.  If she stays out of his way till he gets his head out of his ass, Diggle excludes her because Oliver is such a sensitive plant, he can't deal with having her around while she's having a life of her own.

 

Felicity is a better person than I am because if I were being treated like this by my friends, I would say "screw you, I'm finding a vigilante of my own who will treat me with respect and you can deal without me.

 

Also it's amazing how little the dress and necklace were actually needed to get Felicity to the work date. As VP, surely she would have been expected to be at a work dinner brokering a major deal so I don't understand why Ray didn't just say 'Felicity, you're the VP and you should be there.' Then we could have avoided the whole Pretty Woman-esque awkwardness that made me want to die.

But then we wouldn't have seen him as all romantic and swooping her off her feet.  (I found it squicky but I'm sure it was meant to be seen as romantic.)

 

My other point - which was less clear - is not that Ray was necessarily trying to seduce Felicity with the dress and necklace (not consciously, at any rate), but that Felicity should be aware of the appearance of impropriety associated with it and should have a natural distaste of seeing a rich guy showering expensive 'gifts' a la Pretty Woman - even if it's just a loan in her case - from growing up with a beautiful mom in Vegas.  Ray picking out a dress and necklace for her was just inappropriate, whatever his reasons.

What she should have learned from growing up with her mom in Las Vegas is that presents like that from someone you barely know always come with strings and expectations attached. So to make this storyline work, Felicity has to become stupid.  

 

I find inevitably that with storylines to stall relationships, both characters end up becoming very stupid which is why I hate them so very much.

 

Yeah, that dress was expensive, but it was not couture. They could've at least taken the tag off, haha.

Real couture dresses don't have price tags. The people who buy them don't care about the price.

 

I bet the tag was there to show that it was new and not on loan too, for those who don't buy couture.

[Guest]

The one great thing about this episode is that it leaves no doubt as to how Oliver feels - who he's in love with. After 306 I know some people felt like Oliver still had feelings for Laurel but I've never seen him behave like this ever. It's kind of nice to get the confirmation so clearly, no questions, after last season when it was all subtle guesswork. 

 

Ha, look at me trying to find positives!

But then we wouldn't have seen him as all romantic and swooping her off her feet.  (I found it squicky but I'm sure it was meant to be seen as romantic.)

 

But it wasn't romantic. It was gross. Ray even said he meant to keep the evening platonic which suggests he bought those 'gifts' as a way of bribing her to dinner. If that's romantic they can take it and kill it with fire.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Guest

[Shanna]

I'd say in 99% of circumstances I would agree with you except that Ray IMO isn't like normal bosses. .

I agree with you.

Here is the thing. Felicity has zero problem saying no to Ray. The normal power differential of boss/employee is not really there because felicity was heavily recruited by him. To a ridiculous degree. She has no problem leaving in the middle of important meetings, taking calls from everyone while he was there and telling him to skedaddle. If she didn't want to go to dinner, she wouldn't have done so. She's not getting fired.

Also, felicity has a masters degree and is a wiz at technology. She is now working for a technology company where this is important. Aside from her age, I think she is quite well qualified for her job, which seem to be to do the it stuff that the other employees can't and to support Rays vision for the company.

Strikera0, I completely disagree that Oliver didn't lose his shit when Moira died. He fell over in a heap and even missed her funeral.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Shanna

[Tangerine]

I just remembered Diggle's reaction when he got off the elevator and saw the Palmer Technologies sign for the first time. I don't think he was cool with it, which is what made Felicity's unbridled enthusiasm with it seem OOC to me.

[catrice2]

Hate that Oliver was written to sleep with everyone while Felicity stood on the sidelines, but Felicity is not allowed to go all the way with a romance  They have made the character a pathetic doormat when it comes to Oliver, one that would watch him sleep with sisters, Helena, the cop, the corporate girl that was a bad guy and I'm sure someone else I have forgotten. 

 

No self respecting woman would stay through all that and STILL hope that the "hero" will pick them because of true love.  Not t o mention also have her worshipping at the Sara alter as if their sleeping together didn't bother her    I like the show except for the Oliver and Felicity drama.  I know I am in the minority but the pairing doesn't excite me. 

[foreverevolving]

For me it is the same thing: I had do read some review first, before I was able to accept (and even like) the episode (before that I just couldn't stop ranting and being angry because of Ray's creepiness and Felicity's aparent OOC behaviour when she got "her presents"). I'm referring to the following review which IMO analyses Oliver's and Felicity's issues really well: http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/103115075043/love-hurts-draw-back-your-bow-3x07-review

 

Oh fuck:

"The Oliver of two years ago wouldn’t have done this.  The Oliver of two years ago would have shut down. Maybe even the Oliver of 3x01 would have shut down as well, but Sara’s death impacted Oliver."

I know she didn't mean to but.. damn it if that doesn't makes me stop and realize that Sara death = Tommy death in terms of Oliver emotional and identity progression. I still firmly think Sara dying was a shit-ass move and there has to have been a different way, but... it helps me accept it a bit - just a bit, i will never, EVER, be okay with Sara dying.

Funny though, how in terms of Fakanary i can't accept the identity connection but when it comes of Oliver i can... :-/

[Orion]

Two really random things that I saw when I watched this episode again.

 

Starling City decided to get the Subway system up and working again. Either the federal government came through with disaster relief funds and the city decided that having an abandon subway system was just asking for problems so they rebuilt it or the writers just need an excuse to have Oliver almost hit by a train.

 

After Oliver does the table smash arm sweep thing he goes for the fern and stops himself.

 

 

Oliver I really feel for you here and I spent most of this episode just wanting to hug you but if you hurt the fern we are going to have issues.

 

Arrow where I'm more emotionally attached to a plant than I am some of the cast members.

[Guest]

Arrow where I'm more emotionally attached to a plant than I am some of the cast members.

 

It's the love fern. He can't let it die!

[apinknightmare]

Oliver I really feel for you here and I spent most of this episode just wanting to hug you but if you hurt the fern we are going to have issues.

 

Arrow where I'm more emotionally attached to a plant than I am some of the cast members.

 

Haha.

 

I've watched this scene more times than I'm comfortable admitting (I think the fistpounding table swipe is hot), and I don't think he goes for the plant - he just kind of walks toward it. He would never, ever. Not ever.

[Kordi]

Oh fuck:

"The Oliver of two years ago wouldn’t have done this.  The Oliver of two years ago would have shut down. Maybe even the Oliver of 3x01 would have shut down as well, but Sara’s death impacted Oliver."

I know she didn't mean to but.. damn it if that doesn't makes me stop and realize that Sara death = Tommy death in terms of Oliver emotional and identity progression. I still firmly think Sara dying was a shit-ass move and there has to have been a different way, but... it helps me accept it a bit - just a bit, i will never, EVER, be okay with Sara dying.

Funny though, how in terms of Fakanary i can't accept the identity connection but when it comes of Oliver i can... :-/

Dear, @foreverevolving, thank you for your comment. You wrote: "Sara death = Tommy death in terms of Oliver emotional and identity progression". I think, you are right about this. Actually, I think, the main purpose of the episode "Sara" (and Sara's death in general) was to propel Oliver's personal development. Think about the following analogy: Dead Sara fulfills the function for Oliver that the "Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come" has for Ebenezer Scrooge in Dicken's "A Christmas Carol". Like that ghost shows Scrooge what will happen if he continues to act like he does in the present, dead Sara shows Oliver the destiny he is heading towards if he doesn't change his attitudes and behaviour right now. And like the vision of the "Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come" is what ultimately makes Scrooge change his mind, watching Sara's dead body laid out in state in the foundry (and later burried in a pine box in her old grave) is what triggers some insights in the protagonist of "Arrow": (i) Oliver realizes what it will be like to follow Sara's path till the very end; (ii) he understands that this is not what he wants for himself (in spite of the speech he gave to Felicity in the basement earlier in 3x02 where he seemed to have fully embrassed his fate being the same as Sara's); (iii) he is even able to put it into words and talk about it to Diggle: "I don't want to die down here [and be laid out in state here like Sara was]". It seems to me that the entire episode was constructed to get at that climax point for Oliver that we see in that short scene with Diggle (and therefore, the writers were even willing to put up with terrible plot holes like: "How was Laurel able to bring Sara's corpse down into the basement?").

Edited November 21, 2014 by Kordi

[Danny Franks]

I just remembered Diggle's reaction when he got off the elevator and saw the Palmer Technologies sign for the first time. I don't think he was cool with it, which is what made Felicity's unbridled enthusiasm with it seem OOC to me.

 

Sounds like a case of writing and directorial interference, then. Because if Felicity had to show unbridled enthusiasm to 50 Shades' announcement, then it will have been to sell her sudden adoration of the guy. So if EBR had the instincts to show more conflict, they probably told her to beam as though it was the best thing ever, and her creepy boss was her own personal ray of light. And David Ramsey was either told to look conflicted because he's still allowed to be on Oliver's side, or he just wasn't told anything, and actually got to do what he thought Diggle would do.

By season 3 of most shows, I reckon the actors know their characters far better than the writers often seem to. In the case of Arrow, it seems like that's truer than it's ever been.

 

As for that Fern, maybe Felicity will move it to her new office when Oliver runs off to join the circus. Then 50 Shades can water it for her, so to speak.

 

They have made the character a pathetic doormat when it comes to Oliver, one that would watch him sleep with sisters, Helena, the cop, the corporate girl that was a bad guy and I'm sure someone else I have forgotten.

 

 

He slept with Helena and McKenna before Felicity even knew him as anything more than the handsome guy who sucks at lying. Are we going to say she should be upset about a random girl he fucked one night in the back alley outside a club when he was 19? Totting up 'scores' is really not a helpful way of determining one character's worth as a romantic interest, because then you have to find a delineation point where it becomes no longer 'acceptable' for the characters to be involved with other people without hurting each other. And then that just becomes tit-for-tat sniping between parties who want to blame one character or the other.

 

Of course, the view that Felicity is a doormat if she does anything more than wait for Oliver to come grovelling to her is problematic too. Which is why these storylines never work for me.

[Genki]

Starling City decided to get the Subway system up and working again. Either the federal government came through with disaster relief funds and the city decided that having an abandon subway system was just asking for problems so they rebuilt it or the writers just need an excuse to have Oliver almost hit by a train.

 

Thanks for the reminder, that bugged me this episode, when did the subway become active again? Maybe the train was some nefarious villain transporting their next doomsday device.

[ostentatious]

I agree with you.

Here is the thing. Felicity has zero problem saying no to Ray. The normal power differential of boss/employee is not really there because felicity was heavily recruited by him. To a ridiculous degree. She has no problem leaving in the middle of important meetings, taking calls from everyone while he was there and telling him to skedaddle. If she didn't want to go to dinner, she wouldn't have done so. She's not getting fired.

Also, felicity has a masters degree and is a wiz at technology. She is now working for a technology company where this is important. Aside from her age, I think she is quite well qualified for her job, which seem to be to do the it stuff that the other employees can't and to support Rays vision for the company.

Strikera0, I completely disagree that Oliver didn't lose his shit when Moira died. He fell over in a heap and even missed her funeral.

I agree, thanks for articulating that. It really feels like they both agree she's doing him a favor by being there.

My thought on the dress is probably that within the span of 3 human seconds, Ray conceived the idea of Felicity going with him and it probably really truly was that he didn't want to go himself but had to and wanted company and she was the first one he thought of but he isn't examining that and he thought of all the possible obstacles she could throw up like maybe not having anything to wear on such short notice and told his assistant to take care of it, and since Ray doesn't think in terms of buying the local Tech Village but rather buying the corporation, he and his assistant both know "buy a dress" means "get crazy with it." And it would need accessories, which also means big things. I do not think Ray took the time to obtain these things himself. At most, he spent two seconds reviewing options the assistant presented and picked from those.

One of the reasons I like this character and like BR so much in the role is that I absolutely believe everything I just said happened, because that is how clearly I get this guy's type. I find him utterly harmless. He makes me think of a Great Dane. They don't know how big they are and would be shocked and confused and heartbroken to learn anyone found them intimidating in any way, because a Great Dane literally believes he can successfully curl up in your lap. The fact that he cannot never changes his mind, so firm is his conviction that he is approximately the size of a Jack Russell.

Ray has no idea that he is bigger than Felicity. He has no idea he is a foot taller, a hundred pounds heavier, ten years older, or twenty billion dollars richer. He has no idea he's more powerful than she is. And thus, he is not. Because neither of them think he is.

If it turns out that this is all an act on Ray's part, I will send the prods flowers, because I will never have been so totally fooled by a character, ever. And I am the WORST for seeing ulterior motives and unreliable narrators even where none are ever intended and everyone else thinks I am a nut. Not even the fact that he wants the dwarf star thing shifts me. He wanted Felicity to work for him, went big to get that, but could come up with a plan to make use of Tech Village Corp anyway (which I suspect is more than a throwaway thought and will come back up) so to him it all made sense and was fine. Same with the land. Want the dwarf star, hey, I could do the cogeneration thing with this asset boom! Win win!

Of course all this will blow up and cause enormous damage, and he'll be shocked and chagrined, like a Great Dane who just broke your furniture.

Edited November 21, 2014 by ostentatious

[Shanna]

A Great Dane! So perfect for Brandon routh.

I actually think his natural crazy eyes work for him in this role because they sell his clueless intensity.

[olicityfan25]

Maybe he has crazy eyes because he never sleeps and is buzzed off of adrenaline/espressos and monsters/red bull. lol

[catrox14]

If Felicity did not want to wear the dress, wear the necklace or be kissed, she has been shown to be blunt and vocal about telling folks to step off.

 

[soapbox]

Silence is not consent.

[/soapbox]

 

Felicity didn't say anything because the writers did not permit her.  I have a fondness for most of the characters and I don't blame any of them or the actors either.  The writers and producers (aka TPTB) are responsible for the misogyny I see in this episode, and moreover each little bit (R/F, T/DJ boy, C/Tech guy, CEO wife and Lyla) reinforces an overall pattern.

 

[soapbox again]

The economic power dynamic (boss-employee) between Ray and Felicity is not negated by Felicity's hacker skills, her personal  bodyguard squad, or her love of couture. He is still her boss whether she can hack through ARGUS and Homeland Security or a super-villain weapon makes all her clothing transparent.  She is still his employee.  He is permitted to direct and control her reactions as they relate to the economic success of the company. She does not have the same influence on his reactions as they relate to economic success of the company. He decided to put her to work on the co-generation project. She cannot force him to work on her pet projects for the company, even if QC/PT were guaranteed profits.  

  

Unless he's willing to demote himself to her level in the company hierarchy, he can't date her and he can't give her expensive gifts beyond what he would give other valued members of the company as a thank you for their work efforts. Work harassment is about emphasizing the unequal power dynamic (boss-employee in this case), and the dress and the kiss do not make Felicity more equal to Ray economically or socially.   

[/soapbox]

 

Carrie also murdered him straight up.

Indeed. Seems he was a victim of "women controlling their own sexuality" are inevitably evil (a trope of long and storied history).

 

  

Yep, that's pretty misogynistic--dismissing a woman only characterized as boring to one guy and another woman shown to be a tough, resourceful, complex woman who also happens to be a veteran soldier and now black ops agent. Lyla is so ornamental.

What was CEO wife's purpose?  To make a business dinner appear more social so that Ray can invite Felicity as his date rather than as his VP.  Does she say anything in the episode?  She's an object.  However, TPTB get a point for casting an age-appropriate CEO wife.  

I love Lyla.  I want to thank her for her service in Afghanistan.  Making a kid is tough bloody work, so I salute her for that as well.  The black ops thing is liable to get her fridged on this series, so I'm not sure I should congratulate her on that BUT she's ornamental IN THIS EPISODE.  We hear through Diggle that she takes custody of Cupid, but we don't see it.  What we see on screen in this episode is Lyla at the table, definitely not in action. That's why I see both of these as deprecating women

 

PS: Love your avatar. I'm a WW fan, even with the power dynamics of her creators.

Lyla hosting a dinner get together with John does not suddenly make her ornamental in any way even in this episode. The dinner was at the end of the episode. If the scene was longer I'm sure we would have seen and heard more from her.

[insubordination]

"Felicity, stop dating Ray 'cause Oliver has sads."

 

 

Heh! Poor Diggle! What has he become? The best thing I can say about him is that he really looked hot in this episode. When DR smiles, I melt.  I wish they'd use him to make this show better.

 

 

because a Great Dane literally believes he can successfully curl up in your lap.

 

I liked your Great Dane post and how it was written. I'm trying to understand Ray, but so much is confusing/underdeveloped.  What is he about?  I wanna like him, but they haven't given me enough scenes to be anything but confused.  I wish I saw him exactly as you do so I can be on board with his character.  I want to know exactly why he pulled away from the kiss, and what he and Felicity were thinking. I wanted to see a plausible lead-up to the events in this episode and I wanted the kiss to be more scorching. I didn't feel the heat.  Maybe they could take this storyline and  'fix it' with flashbacks like they did for much of S2.

 

Hell, they'll probably just have Felicity/Ray wake up in bed together next episode, and then he'll climb into his ATOM suit and get a spin-off.  

 

 

If the CW had run an ad...

 

Heh! But where was she? Courtroom? I guess I can't lay the blame of all of this show's flaws on KC/Laurel's shoulders, 'cos she wasn't even here.

 

The writing on this forum is far better than the show. As I was watching the dress/necklace unfold, I couldn't wait to read your reactions. The ep was very CW/SV/Dawson's Creek and I can see why a lot of viewers might not have liked it. I'm immune to the CW crap/tropes. Seen it all before and done better than here.

 

Instead, I sat back and admired that everyone looked so pretty in the ep.  I'm not attempting to analyze the rest in too much depth 'cos as mentioned, the writers didn't put much thought into it anyway. It was nice to get a break from Sara's 'death' investigation. I'm really surprised that the writers of this episode were female.

 

Paul Blackthorne (also looking good) had such a token scene. With Cupid/Cutter? being a former cop, I thought it was a missed opportunity to draw Quentin into the plot.

 

My fave scene/actor was the shrink. I'd like Oliver to smash her office window and swing in for quick sesh now and then.  I hope she reappears sometime soon. I liked the cut of her jib. 

 

So if the shrink said Cupid would get mad if Oliver wasn't sincere, does that mean his 'I need to be alone' speech wasn't sincere? 'Cos Cupid wasn't happy.

 

I'm never sure if I 'ship Oliver/Felicity or not. I love watching them interact 'cos I find Oliver adorable in scenes with her and vice versa, but they've ruined it/rushed it with the poor execution. I think S3 - ep 1 was a mistake and too sudden/ill-thought out.

 

I want Oliver and Felicity to go back to normal or just to get together and act normal again.  At the same time, I have always wanted Felicity to have another love interest, but again - the execution is lacking. I do think it's important that she has a life outside the foundry, romantic or otherwise. She too fabulous not to be appreciated. She needs to be a real girl as much as Oliver needs to be a real boy.

Edited November 21, 2014 by insubordination

[ostentatious]

I liked your Great Dane post and how it was written. I'm trying to understand Ray, but so much is confusing/underdeveloped.  What is he about?  I wanna like him, but they haven't given me enough scenes to be anything but confused.  I wish I saw him exactly as you do so I can be on board with his character.  I want to know exactly why he pulled away from the kiss, and what he and Felicity were thinking. I wanted to see a plausible lead-up to the events in this episode and I wanted the kiss to be more scorching. I didn't feel the heat.  Maybe they could take this storyline and  'fix it' with flashbacks like they did for much of S2.

 

Hell, they'll probably just have Felicity/Ray wake up in bed together next episode, and then he'll climb into his ATOM suit and get a spin-off. 

Hah, the big crucial part of my extreme comfort with and pleasure regarding Ray is the fact that they aren't giving me plausible lead-ups and scorching kisses and heat. I ship Olicity way too hard. I find it reassuring that they aren't giving me what I would need to make Raylicity compete with Olicity in my head and heart. If they had done so I would feel like maybe they're planning to ask me to do that. And I like BR and Ray enough as an individual character that they *actually maybe could accomplish that* with me.

 

And also, the complete lack of heat...if there was heat there I might actually start to be creeped out myself, too. On paper, they hit a lot of my negative triggers. I don't like age differences that go the man's way. I *really* don't like power differentials that go the man's way. I can feel nonexistent hairs pricking up my spine, it just alarms me on a spiritual level. Male dominance. *shudder* But he is so astoundingly not sexual with her. I feel that the direction to him has been to inject no sexuality into this. Yet, he doesn't strike me as asexual. Just not sexual with her. Yet not not sexually attracted to her. Just zero energy of that sort going her direction. Because he's *harmless*. Because he has *no idea* anyone could ever perceive him as sexually threatening.

 

There is a sort of completely un-self-aware person who never sees themselves from other people's points of view so has no idea how they come across. Who out there ever stops Ray to say Ray, you are a Great Dane, not a Jack Russell. When you loom over a person, they can feel threatened. Ray, you can fire everyone in this building. When they agree with you, that might factor into that agreement. I think the very fact that Felicity gives zero fucks whether Ray likes what she has to say or not and clearly knows that she can do whatever she wants at this job, whenever she wants, that it is impossible to offend him...she is the rare person who can deal with that happily. Because she isn't a hinter, she isn't oblique. She is direct. And she probably went to university with three hundred guys just like him.

 

Like, if someone actually called him Fifty Shades of Ray to his face...that is a thing that could happen. I wish Felicity would just do it. "Have you read Fifty Shades of...of course you haven't. Listen to me: you are creeping me out. An observer would call you Fifty Shades of Ray. I know you don't know that. That is why I am telling you this. This is how you seem to people who don't know you based upon the following displayed behaviors: blah blah." He would find it quite useful information, because he has no chance whatsoever of perceiving that about himself.

Edited November 21, 2014 by ostentatious

[statsgirl]

Kreisburg tweeted "Felicity's line to the dress was an ad-lib by Emily on set!"

 

The Great Dane analogy is well, great.  We had a Great Dane once who was convinced he was a lapdog. He would sit in the laps of guests, front feet firmly planted on the ground.  Very affectionate and completely uncontrollable.

 

I've been thinking about Oliver witnessing the kiss. I still think it's the cheesiest trope possible but I now think it might not be such a bad thing.

 

Diggle told Oliver that Felicity had heard him say that he couldn't be with anyone.  Oliver replied he just wanted what was best for her to which Diggle called him on it, that if he wanted what would make her happy, he would be with her. I assumed that he headed over to her office to her that. *

 

But really, more likely would be that he went over so say he was sorry she had to hear that because that's the kind of guy Oliver is, thick as a brick when he's got a thought into his head.  And if he had spoken to her, they probably would have gone through the same thing all over again. he'd say he cared for her but couldn't be in a relationship with her and Felicity would shut down again.

 

So going over there and seeing another guy kissing Felicity, a sign that she really has moved on from him, was just what Oliver needed.

 

 

 

* the fact that Diggle knew that Felicity would be at her office working just makes me even more mad that he didn't invite her over to his place.

 

 

My fave scene/actor was the shrink. I'd like Oliver to smash her office window and swing in for quick sesh now and then.  I hope she reappears sometime soon. I liked the cut of her jib. 

 

So if the shrink said Cupid would get mad if Oliver wasn't sincere, does that mean his 'I need to be alone' speech wasn't sincere? 'Cos Cupid wasn't happy..

His speech was sincere. It was what he  said that she didn't like.

 

I liked the shrink scene too, and the fact that she looked like a real shrink and not a Hollywood version of one. But telling Oliver he needed therapy -- way crossing ethical lines.

 

I wish they would do more with Paul Blackthorne. Three short scenes with Oliver, and everything else has been with Laurel this season.

[Kordi]

Kreisburg tweeted "Felicity's line to the dress was an ad-lib by Emily on set!"

What happened that he put out this tweet? Could it possibly be that people hated/ complained about this line so much ('cause it's OOC for Felicity) that Kreisberg now wanted to shift the whole blame on EBR? IMO that's mean of him. Even if it's her ad-lib, in the end, it's up to the EPs to decide what gets into the episode and what not. Thus, he (and MG and GB) have to assume full responsibility for what was said on screen.

[statsgirl]

He tweeted it on Wednesday during the show. There was so much going on, I missed it then.

 

I think it was her telling the dress that they're going to be such good friends, not that whole buying the dress thing.  Talking to a dress does sound like Felicity.

 

Later in the scene with Diggle, she told him that Ray loaned her the dress for the dinner.  Did she give it back?  What was Ray going to do with a dress that had already been worn and was certainly not his size.

[Password]

The whole dress thing was ridiculous.

[apinknightmare]

Later in the scene with Diggle, she told him that Ray loaned her the dress for the dinner.  Did she give it back?  What was Ray going to do with a dress that had already been worn and was certainly not his size.

 

With this guy, do we really want to know? ;)

[ostentatious]

I thought it was on loan like the necklace was? The gowns major actresses wear for big awards shows and such are loaners.

[statsgirl]

Those gowns are loaners because the actresses stand on the red carpet and give the designers names. It's a big ad for them.  They're also not dresses you can wear again.  Some of those are donated to museums.  There are also places that take the dresses and rent them out to normal people for occasions.

 

Sometimes the actors keep the clothes, especially the big name actors who get lots of stuff for free when they can easily afford it themselves.  (Disney apparently gave Tim Allen an expensive car for The Santa Claus while the supporting actors got nothing.)  Jane Kaczmarek and Bradley Whitford had a charity that sold the dresses and swag that the stars donated.

 

But Ray bought the dress because he said couture translates as expensive.  He's so rich, why would he take the time to find a place that rents dresses like that? Not to mention, it had a price tag which the rented dresses don't.  None of it seems to make any sense, unless Felicity thought the dress was just on loan but  Ray meant for her to keep it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I thought it was on loan like the necklace was? The gowns major actresses wear for big awards shows and such are loaners.

 

He specifically told her he bought it for her. Felicity said it was on loan when she was talking to Diggle, so I guess maybe it's a good thing she wasn't planning on keeping it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

[ostentatious]

He specifically told her he bought it for her. Felicity said it was on loan when she was talking to Diggle, so I guess maybe it's a good thing she wasn't planning on keeping it.

Ah, so he did. It's interesting that Felicity either heard that as "on loan" or for some reason...lied to Diggle? Or just had made a deal with herself she would give it back. I can see that. "I will wear it...but I will not keep it."

[Delphi]

I enjoyed most of Felicity's and Ray's interactions in the episode, possibly because these days I'm mostly watching the show for Felicity. Though I'd agree that the writers sped up the romance between the two I hardly think Felicity was acting out of character, specifically in regards to being swayed to going to dinner over the dress. It's never been really started but it's glaringly obvious that Felicity loves clothes. You don't have her kind of style (the kind other female characters are seriously lacking) if you don't love clothes, the seriously expensive clothes Felicity wears.

In fact the line about being best friends with the dress was an ad lib by Emily and I'm willing to warrant that after three years she knows her character pretty well, probably better than we do, and knows what would be out of character for her.

[Shanna]

Ah, so he did. It's interesting that Felicity either heard that as "on loan" or for some reason...lied to Diggle? Or just had made a deal with herself she would give it back. I can see that. "I will wear it...but I will not keep it."

That actually makes complete sense to me. I like that they had it a dress and jewels that were to be given back, rather than a gift. It makes it more like your employer providing a uniform for an event.

It was just stupid that this particular event did not warrant it. If it had been a state dinner with the president or an embassy party or something it would have been easier to buy as necessary. (Also if that dress had actually been coutour!) As it was, she could have just worn the dress she wore to the lair and it would have been fine.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Shanna

[statsgirl]

Actually, I think the cocktail party clothes she usually wears would have been more appropriate.  I didn't think Mrs. Gardner's clothes were anything special, and if you want something from someone, you don't show them up by having your VP wear designer dresses and $10M worth of diamonds.

[Orion]

I honestly just thing the necklace and dress were Ray trying to be nice. He's a doof . His focus is on inventing things and his company. He gets overly excited about them and just like Felicity's mouth outpaces her head I think Ray is constantly focusing on his next big thing (not knowing if it was the morning because he had been up all night working, running to Felicity's apartment with notes on a napkin about a power plant) @ostentatious compared him to a Great Dane and I think that's a great analogy I've been viewing him as an overeager Golden Retriever. He's happy and excited about everything but easily distracted (very anti-Oliver).

 

Felicity wears pretty dresses Ray thinks she would like a dress. Women like diamonds Ray thinks he'll get her a loaner necklace for the night.  His filter where anything could be viewed as inappropriate doesn't kick in because he's five projects ahead of his actions. He's trying to make her feel special. When my husband asked me out on our first date he showed up with a potted plant (he was poor and in college and it was in the clearance section, he's gotten use to me laughing at him about it.) He wasn't buying it to get in my pants or to disrespect me, he was trying to make me happy. I would assume that if he was a billionaire the "you are special gift" would have been more than the half dead clearance section plant but the meaning behind it would have been the same. The most obvious things about Felicity are that she enjoys clothes and likes tech.

 

He wasn't giving her those things in exchange for some nefarious purpose. He wanted her to make a boring work dinner more fun. He obviously wants more than just a work date with her because he told her that he promised himself he would keep it platonic, which means he's thinking about wanting another dinner that is not platonic but that wasn't what that night was about, but that doesn't mean that he was purchasing her for the evening. The way I viewed it was he has feelings for her but those are separate from how he needs her for his company.  It is a nice mirror with Oliver. Oliver needs Felicity for the Arrow business but he can't separate his feelings for her. Ray can.

 

From my very limited experiences with renting couture dresses they do come with rental tags on them. Couture dresses bought from boutiques do not come with price tags. When Felicity told Diggle that the dress was a loaner I assumed the tag on the back was from the rental place. That's just my assumption.

[ostentatious]

Actually, I think the cocktail party clothes she usually wears would have been more appropriate.  I didn't think Mrs. Gardner's clothes were anything special, and if you want something from someone, you don't show them up by having your VP wear designer dresses and $10M worth of diamonds.

You're very right about that.

 

That's a fiftyish guy and his fiftyish wife. She's very Talbot's. It's not like this was a charity ball they were going to. Wrong approach.