S04.E07: Redux

[CaughtOnTape]

Just wanted to say that Brody popping up WTF'd me hardcore.  I was totally on board with it really being him, especially when she touched him.  When it ended up not being him...I needed to go to bed.  LMAO

[Trois]

I was so ready to kick my TV in if Brody was really undead. 

I agree with you now. But at that moment I'd have loved if he had really returned. 

Homeland is missing an actor with the skills of Damian Lewis.

[Joan van Snark]

I really don't agree that the show is terrible now.  I still think it is very compelling and I'm always excited to see where they go with the storylines.  Yes I agree--the off the meds scenes aren't my favorite either--but I don't think they are THAT bad.  

 

This show is a LOT better written and directed than that other show that comes on AMC at the same time (and I like that show and watch it, but it is really starting to test my patience).  

[panthergirl13]

I think he said "Who's Brody" more to make a powerful ending to the episode than as a significant plot point. While the world would know who Brody was, even spies wouldn't necessarily know of her romantic relationship with him, so her just repeating one name over and over wouldn't necessarily immediately signify to him that it was THAT Brody.

I feel really stupid because I didn't hear "Who's Brody?". I heard......

 

 

 

 

"Mrs. Brody?"

 

 

.... and couldn't stop laughing. (otherwise I really did like the episode, but "a friend" tells me it helps if you've ever taken psychotropic drugs).

[bluebonnet]

Lol, Fara really is the worst spy ever.  I had a slight hope that this episode would come back with Fara being completely on top of the fact that someone tripped the alarm at the villa, knocked over the trash and left the cardboard window in disarray.  But no.  She's just that bad.  Yawn.

 

I still can't believe the ISI female agent didn't seem to know about Carrie's illness.  Not only was it made pubic but ffs, wouldn't the entire team have researched the fuck out of the new Islamabad station chief?  

 

It's hard to even properly critique this show anymore because at times I feel like I'm picking on a member of the vulnerable population.  

[bunnywithanaxe]

One question-- is the CIA keeping Saul's abduction hush-hush, or are they so done with Mira that she doesn't even rate a reaction scene?

[Neurochick]

For the first time, I actually laughed during this episode.  Carrie's meltdown with the weird camera work cracked me the hell up.  And then Brody showing up was pure gold, I was like WTF?  I felt as crazy as Carrie while I was watching this, maybe the episode would make more sense if I was on drugs.  

 

What did they give Carrie?  How did they know it would make her hallucinate and not just kill her?  Dennis is such a douche, I hope Quinn kills him or cuts his balls off, which wouldn't matter since he doesn't have any.  

 

Also the handsome ISA agent cracks me up because he played Karen's boyfriend in "Smash," and someone I know asked me if he was in "Slumdog Millionaire" and I said, "No, he's not Dev Patel" so I always call this guy, "Not Dev Patel."  

[HumblePi]

I haven't watched Homeland since the last season because I couldn't take any more of that angst and open-eyed crazy of Carrie. Just my misfortune to tune into last night's episode just as Carrie was having her psychedelic bad trip. So someone switched her med and made her act all crazy and stuff. Well, well isn't that a new twist, ... not.

 

I won't watch any more episodes after this one, it'll hold me for a long time, yep. The one curiously humorous scene was Saul listening and watching Bin Laden having sex. WTF was that supposed to be, torture for Saul to watch someone having sex when he couldn't? I didn't get it. But then I didn't care either.  Oh well, back to surfing.

Edited November 11, 2014 by HumblePi

[tjcletzgo]

I miss Brody so much, this season feels like a different show...........  

[Giggsy11]

I thought ep7 was outstanding, I wasn't keen on the fact that Brody was no longer on the show when this season started but, as it has progressed I have been pretty much mind blown by the end of each episode. I neeeeeed to talk about it Lol, none of my friends seem to be as into it as I am. 

[Giggsy11]

I haven't watched Homeland since the last season because I couldn't take any more of that angst and open-eyed crazy of Carrie. Just my misfortune to tune into last night's episode just as Carrie was having her psychedelic bad trip. So someone switched her med and made her act all crazy and stuff. Well, well isn't that a new twist, ... not.

 

I won't watch any more episodes after this one, it'll hold me for a long time, yep. The one curiously humorous scene was Saul listening and watching Bin Laden having sex. WTF was that supposed to be, torture for Saul to watch someone having sex when he couldn't? I didn't get it. But then I didn't care either.  Oh well, back to surfing.

Tuning in half way through the season isn't the best idea. I agree with you on Carrie's scenes when she freaks out they get a bit much but on the other hand she is excellent at the part so for that alone I will suffer and watch them. Give it a go from ep1, this season has been one of the best so far in my opinion. 

[meep.meep]

Lol, Fara really is the worst spy ever.  I had a slight hope that this episode would come back with Fara being completely on top of the fact that someone tripped the alarm at the villa, knocked over the trash and left the cardboard window in disarray.  But no.  She's just that bad.  Yawn.

She is the worst spy ever - because she is a forensic accountant. Why is she even here?

[bluebonnet]

She is the worst spy ever - because she is a forensic accountant. Why is she even here?

Huh.  I thought she had gone through formal spy training already.  Yeah, why is she even there if she's still supposed to be a forensic accountant?  But even if she isn't a spy, she's still the most inattentive person ever.  I couldn't imagine not being curious when my alarm goes off, my trash is knocked out, and my window is broken.  

Edited November 11, 2014 by bluebonnet

[vesperholly]

I agree with you now. But at that moment I'd have loved if he had really returned. 

Homeland is missing an actor with the skills of Damian Lewis.

 

I'm on this bandwagon as well. At first I was like, "Oooh, EPIC mindfuck!" because I truly love shows that can pull off twists like that. Then I thought about how bad of a retread it would be, and was glad in the end when it was just her hallucination.

Edited November 11, 2014 by vesperholly

[LotusFlower]

I was so ready to kick my TV in if Brody was really undead.

The show "24" really did this. That's when it jumped the shark.

Aren't some of the folks on 24 behind this show, too?

[lidarose9]

I still can't believe the ISI female agent didn't seem to know about Carrie's illness.  Not only was it made pubic but ffs, wouldn't the entire team have researched the fuck out of the new Islamabad station chief?  

 

This is just like a soap opera now, where first wives disappear and brain tumors are conveniently forgotten. We are all being asked to pretend these people wouldn't have known about Carrie's illness and medication. When it has been a pivotal plot point in the recent past: her very public breakdown. Being forcibly locked up in the nut house. Being denounced publicly by her boss. What kind of self-respecting terrorist would have missed something so major? This show has never been big on plausibility, but it's the first time I've noticed something so blatantly revisionist. 

 

And not for the first time does it make me reflect on the underlying, fundamental lack of plausibility in having a bipolar CIA agent. As a station chief in Islamabad. Or Drone Queen. 

[Maximona]

Guess I'm in the minority here, because I thought this was a really strong episode.

 

Carrie's meds were tampered with.  I couldn't quite figure out whether someone had slipped her ketamine (a horse tranquilizer with hallucinogenic properties in humans) or had merely substituted baking soda for lithium -- some bipolars do have psychotic symptoms when they're in the manic phases of the disease, and we have seen Carrie growing sicker and sicker this season, although that's been nicely underwritten (even with meds, she's increasingly volatile and never sleeps.)

 

The Carrie insanity scenes were painful to watch, but I didn't think they were gratuitous.  In context, they worked for me.  She's the CIA's Cassandra,always right, never heeded.  That's enough to drive anyone mad.

 

Loved, loved, loved Saul's dialogues with his captor.  The captor's comments mirrored my own thoughts about 9/11 at the time -- so-o, since Bin Laden is Saudi and the majority of the 9/11 thugs are Saudi, why aren't we doing something about the Saudis?  Oh, right.  My car uses gas.  Duh!  

 

Brody's momentary reappearance spooked me!  And I love the insanely handsome Pakistani officer in whose arms Carrie eventually ends up -- he was the only one who noticed that Carrie was not well earlier in the episode.  The scriptwriters have built a three-dimensional character there with remarkably few strokes, which I always admire in scriptwriters.

 

I am looking forward to some episodes where my BF Quinn goes off into the Tribal Lands --preferably bare-chested -- to steal back Saul, so if the hostage trade doesn't fall through, I will be very, very disappointed.

 

 

[Sofie Fatale]

Huh.  I thought she had gone through formal spy training already.  Yeah, why is she even there if she's still supposed to be a forensic accountant?  But even if she isn't a spy, she's still the most inattentive person ever.  I couldn't imagine not being curious when my alarm goes off, my trash is knocked out, and my window is broken.

When Quinn said he would have placed the tracker if he wasn't WHITE, this pretty much sums up why Carrie chose to bring Fara on. She has worked with Carrie before and SHE FITS IN, making it easier to do stuff like get a solid pic of Haqqani.

She was an idiot about that break in though.

[Pallas]

Thanks, Blakeston and Morbs, for the correction about the Congressional inquiry: Saul's and not Carrie's testimony was televised.  Now I recall Carrie's briefly playing good girl on the stand, her diffidently smiling and nodding at Lockhart as he said he'd agree to close the hearings in order to protect her cover and her sources. 

 

Carrie was therefore not publicly named as the case officer in charge of the Brody investigation, the one Saul would point out had a bi-polar problem.  Javadi knew enough to make the connection (as he was meant to) because Nazir did, and Javadi had been working with Nazir to implement the Langley bombing.  But the ISI may not.  

 

If they somehow did identify Carrie as the case officer in question, they would nonetheless have had good reason to be skeptical of information which the acting head of the CIA -- more in sorrow than in anger -- was at pains to disclose to the world, on TV, in a hearing conducted by the future head of the CIA.  Especially as the ISI does know that Carrie was Saul's protege, and that once the show trial was concluded, the allegedly crazy Carrie was then pretty promptly promoted to station chief by Saul's successor: first in Istanbul and then in Islamabad.

 

The CIA is crazy, the ISI and the global intelligence community probably agreed -- but (unfortunately) not certifiable.

[Boundary]

When Quinn said he would have placed the tracker if he wasn't WHITE, this pretty much sums up why Carrie chose to bring Fara on. She has worked with Carrie before and SHE FITS IN, making it easier to do stuff like get a solid pic of Haqqani.

 

I think this a secondary benefit that Fara brings onto the table. The first reason why Carrie brought Fara, Max and wanted Quinn so badly is because she had no one to trust in Islamabad. Remember she smelled a rat concerning Sandy's death but had to come clean when their investigation required more resources. She asked Fara to pose as a journalist and Fara "complained" when her duties expanded. She still managed to "luck out" by being the first person to confirm Haqqani's survival. Fara has been referred to as Carrie's protege a couple of times now and I think this will pay off when she or Quinn break this case i.e. when Tasneem is unmasked.

[Morbs]

They also had a line when Fara was first introduced that she was around simply because so many of her superiors in the CIA were wiped out in the bombing.

[Neurochick]

This episode of Homeland, meaning Carrie's meltdown, reminded me of the season one finale of "Millennium"  Where Laura Means freaked out to Patti Smith's freakout masterpiece, "Land."

[Sofie Fatale]

I think this a secondary benefit that Fara brings onto the table. The first reason why Carrie brought Fara, Max and wanted Quinn so badly is because she had no one to trust in Islamabad.

Well said and I totally agree. That's why I mentioned that she had worked with Carrie before. I should've elaborated.

[Helena Dax]

While I agree that it's always important to remember that your enemies are human beings too, with families, feelings and everything else, I disagree with  the way the writers portrayed Haqanni in this episode. Too nice. It's like the writers were saying: hey, his only flaw is that he's attacking our side.   And I believe someone who let half of his family be killed in order to fake his own death (and then killed his  own nephew) can't be such a great husband and dad. 

 

And I'm confused: isn't he a Taliban? Why is his wife showing her face (and her whole naked body later) in front of Saul?

 

Are we sure  the ISI guy is on the same team than Not-Carrie? What if he isn't? He might have found they were drugging her and he just wanted to help her without involving the CIA. And why is Not-Carrie helping the Taliban?

 

My WTF when I saw Brody's face was epic. I didn't know what to think at the beginning, but then I realized the fact that he wasn't explaining how it was even possible meant she was hallucinating. 

[paramitch]

I thought this episode was really powerful, and I felt a gut-wrenching amount of pity, watching Carrie curl up like a baby in Khan's lap at the end. I was very moved by the final scene because it shows us how much emotional compartmentalization Carrie does. This episode made it quite clear that she not only felt terrible about Aayan (and Saul), but that she has never forgiven herself for Brody -- not that he died, but that she was (as she admitted) willing to send him to his death for the good of her country. 

 

I guess I am in the minority, but I liked this episode.  Carrie has always suppressed her feelings, and her lack of meds allowed her subconscious to flow free.  I'm gonna be pissed if Saul dies.  Loved seeing Damian Lewis.  

 

The way the episode put us inside poor Carrie's mind I found both fascinating, beautifully done, yet very hard to watch. I thought the ISI step of poisoning/destabilizing Carrie was incredibly cruel and that it would've been kinder just to shoot her, honestly. I also hate Boyd and cannot wait for him to die -- he's just so conscientious. It creeps me out. He's being used, yes, but he's also doing a far better job than he needs to be in support of them (even carefully replacing the bottle positions from the photo he took) -- it's like I think part of him is enjoying this in some sick way. I wanted so badly for Quinn to catch him at Carrie's.

 

Why is it necessary to give us 'Crazy Carrie' every. single. season?

Did not like. At all.

 

I think it's an essential, foundational part of the show though. Carrie's mental illness is her Achilles heel but it's also kind of her superpower. I don't mind it, although I hate seeing her break down. But I love watching her pick herself back up and win anyway.

 

I thought it was a fascinating episode. To see Saul with the world's number one terrorist was a really interesting premise. And while I was dreading having to watch Carrie go down the rabbit hole again, I believed it.

 

I love that even though Saul is being held hostage, he didn't hesitate to disagree with Haqqani.

 

This was so textbook Saul! I loved the fact that he was so calm and civilized, so hopeful of talking Haqqani out of his extremism and still hoping everyone could just get along. And in a way that was so dismissive of his own safety. You could see that Saul was both exhausted and embarrassed and that he really didn't care whether he lived or died. But I so hope they rescue him somehow. Or he gets away.

 

I agree with penelope and Cramps that Tasneem is running an operation of her own: she may be the ISI's own Carrie, perhaps.  In the show's context within the world, it would make sense not to cast the whole of official Pakistan as the unambiguous antagonist; within the show itself, it would mean that Saul got something right: he was partial to the ISI man, Khan.

This is definitely how I read the situation as well. I'm very interested to see what will happen next.

 

I really don't agree that the show is terrible now.  I still think it is very compelling and I'm always excited to see where they go with the storylines. 

For me, this season is very strong--I like that it's more of a melting pot that allows them to explore these very powerful issues of both political power, culpability, extremism, and spycraft. And I especially love that its Middle Eastern characters are consistently interesting and complex, and that they run the gamut, from U.S. patriots to wives and friends to pawns to extremist terrorists, etc. Khan especially became very interesting this episode because he doesn't seem as obviously corrupt. He seemed genuinely upset at the airport when accused of corruption.

 

She's the CIA's Cassandra,always right, never heeded.  That's enough to drive anyone mad.

 

And I love the insanely handsome Pakistani officer in whose arms Carrie eventually ends up -- he was the only one who noticed that Carrie was not well earlier in the episode.  The scriptwriters have built a three-dimensional character there with remarkably few strokes, which I always admire in scriptwriters.

 

I am looking forward to some episodes where my BF Quinn goes off into the Tribal Lands --preferably bare-chested -- to steal back Saul, so if the hostage trade doesn't fall through, I will be very, very disappointed.

Forgive me for the snips -- I loved this entire post, and am with you entirely on everything, so was just trying to fit in the specific points I wanted to address. Your characterization of Carrie as Cassandra is one of my favorite things about this show -- it's tragic and yet somehow what sees her through everything. I also agree that Raza Jaffrey (Khan) is gorgeous -- I loved him on "Spooks" so am glad he's here (better here than on "Smash"), and he's such an elegant presence.

I feel like the subtext of Carrie and Quinn's issues continued rather nicely here, as Carrie hallucinated his attempts to help her in the hospital. I kind of like that so far, still, it's more complex than romantic feelings. Quinn cares about Carrie, but further, he also respects her brilliance in ways that nobody else does. I don't care if they get together romantically, but I'd like to see Quinn and Carrie help one another to reveal the traitor, kick some Haqqani ass, and save Saul. 

 

Fara has been referred to as Carrie's protege a couple of times now and I think this will pay off when she or Quinn break this case i.e. when Tasneem is unmasked.

 

This is a terrific speculation, and I've been wondering the same thing. It's got to come out at some point that Dennis Boyd got those pictures from the safehouse under Fara's nose, too. I'm also wondering if Carrie will emerge to put some connections together on this stuff -- she specifically noticed Tasneem texting in the meeting, so my fingers are crossed that she's going to start figuring things out. I so badly want that little traitor Dennis picked up before he does anymore damage!

Edited November 11, 2014 by paramitch

[stillshimpy]

Welp.  Among other things, someone needs to kick Duck's ass.  

 

From the recap:  

 

 

Oh, yes. By all means let's have Haqqani and Saul lecture each other about Islam and Christianity's respective toxic effects like the audience is a bunch of sophomores ripping bong hits. Great use of airtime.

 

And with substandard weed, no less, because Saul's "well shut my mouth, you do have a point there!" closing line would only have silenced, the very-stoned-on-the- skunk-weed set.  

 

Somewhere Damien Lewis is inventing to gods to pray to that that was his last contractual obligation to Homeland.  

Edited November 11, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Mama No Life]

I don't agree that the handsome officer was the first to "notice" that she was off...rather, I thought he was putting the seed of doubt in her head, which of course pushed her to go home and take more of the poison pills. 

[shelley1234]

I don't agree that the handsome officer was the first to "notice" that she was off...rather, I thought he was putting the seed of doubt in her head, which of course pushed her to go home and take more of the poison pills. 

 

That's how I saw it as well....it was all part of the con.  

[Cosmocrush]

Great post paramitch.  I enjoyed all of it. 

 

 

I loved the 'return' of Brody because just like Carrie, I couldn't tell if it was real or not.  Like her, I knew it couldn't be real but there he was.   I liked that the show actually showed us what Carrie was seeing and feeling.   Actually, as tough as this episode was to watch, I think it was a strong one.  

 

Welp.  Among other things, someone needs to kick Duck's ass.

Ha! Agreed.  I need that satisfaction.  

[maddie965]

I agree with everyone who thinks this season is very strong indeed. I think it's the best one after Season 1. When it comes to Homeland, I don't care much for inaccuracies, or logic, or plot holes. I take those for granted. I want episodes that will live me breathless, on the edge of my seat, desperate for more. So far, they have delivered. The last episode got me saying WTF every five minutes. I can't wait to see what happens next. I love crazy Carrie, friendly-hostage Saul, wise-disillusioned Quinn, smart-pretty terrorists, the whole deal. Most of all, I love the way the Quinn-Carrie relationship is developing. Those two have an unique bond. Quinn was the only one who could have stopped her at that War Room - even in her manic state, she still listened to him. He's the only one who knows how she really feels about...everything, really. He may be the only one capable and willing to save her from herself. I hope so.

Edited November 12, 2014 by maddie965

[stillshimpy]

Welp.  Among other things, someone needs to kick Duck's ass.

 

Ha! Agreed.  I need that satisfaction.

 

Truly.  When Dennis originally photographed Carrie's apartment after overhearing his wife say she feared he was a loser (in a very generalized "wives fear that their husbands are losers" way) I thought: "Oh jeez, so now he's going to go through with it, so that he can spare her the ruination of her career and learning just how much of a loser he really has been, on top of whatever the hell they would do to him for treason, poor guy can't escape his own mistakes, very human." 

 

But no.  Instead, upon overhearing that his wife feared he was a loser, he must have thought, "Time to go big or go home it is then! Loser? Loser you say?  I will show you a Loser, Lady.  I will be the Colossal Asshole Loser Husband to beat all by leaning even farther into this 'why don't I betray my marriage, my country and my fucking humanity all in one!  I will medal in the Loser Olympics!  Wooo! Chicken Dance of Loserdom!! Woooooo!" 

 

Fucking Duck, Man.  Carrie poisoned.  Aayan dead (which was realistically just going to be what happened to the guy anyway, but Dennis made sure his heart was ripped out and fed to him first, so that was nice) and he completely took a pass on leaving Islamabad.  

 

It's like he's compounding the concept of being a Loser on every known level.  "All women fear that their husbands are Losers.  So I will be the fucking Ted Bundy of Losers."  

Edited November 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[paramitch]

And with substandard weed, no less, because Saul's "well shut my mouth, you do have a point there!" closing line would only have silenced, the very-stoned-on-the- skunk-weed set. 

I didn't read that as Saul's final reaction at all. Saul and Haqqani's conversations in this episode were fascinating to me because the responses from Haqqani were exactly what we hear too often to justify Muslim extremism, yet the two were in fact able to have at least some polite discourse. It was just so typically Saul to me that he's at the right hand of a major terrorist and yet he's trying to reason with him. I love that about Saul and found it very true to character. I definitely didn't get the implication that Saul was tacitly or otherwise actually agreeing with Haqqani, however.

 

Most of all, I love the way the Quinn-Carrie relationship is developing. Those two have an unique bond. Quinn was the only one who could have stopped her at that War Room - even in her manic state, she still listened to him. He's the only one who knows how she really feels about...everything, really. He may be the only one capable and willing to save her from herself. I hope so.

 

I love the season too (I know, we're sitting at the smaller table, hee), and actually think Quinn-Carrie is interesting. I especially appreciate the fact that even when Carrie is careening off the edge of the world on mania and poison, Quinn thus far has not been shown to do any obvious "I'll save you!" stuff (well, aside from shooting her, which many viewers loved even more than declarations of fealty). He speaks up when he feels he should, he shows worry on his (adorable) face, but he stays back and lets, for better or worse, Carrie do her thing. I think that's honestly a really interesting and refreshing choice by the writers. I've always liked the way they've shown us the fact that Quinn admires Carrie both personally and professionally and it's very nearly wordless (although yes, I could have done without Dar Adal and others making the subtext into text earlier this season). It's just there. I've found it very clear and consistent since season 2 and Quinn's introduction.

 

"Time to go big or go home it is then! Loser? Loser you say?  I will show you a Loser, Lady.  I will be the Colossal Asshole Loser Husband to beat all by leaning even farther into this 'why don't I betray my marriage, my country and my fucking humanity all in one!  I will medal in the Loser Olympics!  Wooo! Chicken Dance of Loserdom!! Woooooo!" 

 

Fucking Duck, Man.  Carrie poisoned.  Aayan dead (which was realistically just going to be what happened to the guy anyway, but Dennis made sure his heart was ripped out and fed to him first, so that was nice) and he completely took a pass on leaving Islamabad.  

 

It's like he's compounding the concept of being a Loser on every known level.  "All women fear that their husbands are Losers.  So I will be the fucking Ted Bundy of Losers."  

 

I loved this so much, and laughed out loud. Beautifully put.

 

Duck (Boyd) is such an asshole! I thought it was interesting in that previous episode when he did that reconnaissance on Carrie's place and even Tasneem looked rather discomfited by how much effort he was putting in. I feel like when she said, "You have a talent for this," his heart shrank three sizes and he was like, "Hey, if the only validation I can get is from terrorists, that's okay, I deserve it, and I am going to be the best terrorist traitor spy ever!"

 

I just want to see him brought down, as publicly as possible, and in a way that will vindicate Carrie too, damn it. Although I really feel bad for his wife, who is a cool person and a patriot, and who doesn't deserve the shitstorm that is about to rain down on her when that inevitably happens.

Edited November 12, 2014 by paramitch

[stillshimpy]

I love that about Saul and found it very true to character. I definitely didn't get the implication that Saul was tacitly or otherwise actually agreeing with Haqqani, however.

 

I didn't think Saul was agreeing with Haqqani either, paramitch, but rather that Haqqani, who was spouting every well-trod "here's how we justify our heinous actions"  and was further trying to engage Saul with the talk of the Christian atrocities (which usually leads to talk of the Crusades, etc)  was rather easily shut-up by "I'm a Jew" when any terrorist worth his debating salt would then go on the mother of all "here I launch my tried and true evil-evil-evil Israel terrorist justifying speech!" ....which, of course, Saul would likely know was the next set of volleys in that oft played tennis match.  

 

 

 

I just want to see him brought down, as publicly as possible, and in a way that will vindicate Carrie too, damn it. Although I really feel bad for his wife, who is a cool person and a patriot, and who doesn't deserve the shitstorm that is about to rain down on her when that inevitably happens.

 

Yeah, by the time Duck was talking about how he wouldn't let her throw her career away, I was sort of hoping he'd fall into a pile of his own bullshit and flounder to eternity, because holy smokes, dude, now you're actively trying to take her down.   At least he's becoming rapidly accomplished in intentionally rather than incidentally sucking.  

Edited November 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[vmarsissmart]

 

Also the handsome ISA agent cracks me up because he played Karen's boyfriend in "Smash," and someone I know asked me if he was in "Slumdog Millionaire" and I said, "No, he's not Dev Patel" so I always call this guy, "Not Dev Patel."  

I've been trying to place him for weeks!  And I totally agree on calling him not Dev Patel.  I miss Smash. Such a guilty pleasure.  

[Maximona]

 

I didn't think Saul was agreeing with Haqqani either, paramitch, but rather that Haqqani, who was spouting every well-trod "here's how we justify our heinous actions"  and was further trying to engage Saul with the talk of the Christian atrocities (which usually leads to talk of the Crusades, etc)  was rather easily shut-up by "I'm a Jew" when any terrorist worth his debating salt would then go on the mother of all "here I launch my tried and true evil-evil-evil Israel terrorist justifying speech!" ....which, of course, Saul would likely know was the next set of volleys in that oft played tennis match.

 

While you write so beautifully, this made me laugh out loud, I don't agree.  

 

In fact, I rather thought that Saul and the Warlord could easily come to a settlement ending the war if they were only given the power to negotiate it.

[stillshimpy]

Thanks, Maximona (and you too paramitch -- I was remiss in not saying so earlier) , I also liked the civility with which they engaged, all things considered, but I thought part of the reason it was so civil is that they were just trading what amounted to party lines back and forth.  I know I've certainly encountered both of those arguments, essentially verbatim before.   I don't think they were tired in the sense that "Jeez, that stuff again..." because quite frankly, they remain true from both sides and that's part of the reason they are repeated fairly frequently.  I thought they were tired in the sense that they were part of a dance done so many times, it was almost done reflexively.  

[LotusFlower]

Fara has been referred to as Carrie's protege a couple of times now and I think this will pay off when she or Quinn break this case i.e. when Tasneem is unmasked.

This is a terrific speculation, and I've been wondering the same thing. It's got to come out at some point that Dennis Boyd got those pictures from the safehouse under Fara's nose, too.

I'm not sure how this could be seen as a "pay off," since Fara fucked up her assignment at the safe house. I do wonder, however, what it meant when Carrie noticed Tasneen texting in that meeting. Hopefully that will lead to any unmasking, if Carrie can get off her meds, or back on them, whatever she needs to get back on track!

[EtheltoTillie]

I'm not sure how this could be seen as a "pay off," since Fara fucked up her assignment at the safe house. I do wonder, however, what it meant when Carrie noticed Tasneen texting in that meeting. Hopefully that will lead to any unmasking, if Carrie can get off her meds, or back on them, whatever she needs to get back on track!

I'm glad you brought up that texting. I noticed it too. I hope she remembers after she gets off the drugs.

[shapeshifter]

...Saul and Haqqani's conversations in this episode were fascinating to me because the responses from Haqqani were exactly what we hear too often to justify Muslim extremism, yet the two were in fact able to have at least some polite discourse. ...

...In fact, I rather thought that Saul and the Warlord could easily come to a settlement ending the war if they were only given the power to negotiate it.

And yet, the vibe was: Not so much; not really. Perhaps if Haqqani had not yet had his reunion sex, he would not have been on his best behavior--wanting to appear ever the hospitable man of the house to his wife.

...Duck (Boyd) is such an asshole! I thought it was interesting in that previous episode when he did that reconnaissance on Carrie's place and even Tasneem looked rather discomfited by how much effort he was putting in. I feel like when she said, "You have a talent for this," his heart shrank three sizes and he was like, "Hey, if the only validation I can get is from terrorists, that's okay, I deserve it, and I am going to be the best terrorist traitor spy ever!"...

Her "You have a talent for this," carries a sense of: You may be a loser, but you are my loser now, you soulless infidel. ("Infidel" in the generic sense of "unbeliever" because he clearly believes in no one or nothing.) The premise of the show (mentally ill spy) is a great setup for the creation of complex villainy; kudos to the writers for noticing.

[Haleth]

I just want to see him brought down, as publicly as possible, and in a way that will vindicate Carrie too, damn it. Although I really feel bad for his wife, who is a cool person and a patriot, and who doesn't deserve the shitstorm that is about to rain down on her when that inevitably happens

 

I know!  Dragging him home to be tried for treason and facing execution would be suitable.  I hate what it would do to the Ambassador, but then if she wasn't so careless with the documents in her office, letting Dennis have access, he wouldn't have gotten into the mess to begin with.

 

Speaking of that, why isn't anyone continuing to investigate where Sandy got all the intel he traded with the Pakistanis?

Edited November 12, 2014 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

I'm glad you brought up that texting. I noticed it too. I hope she remembers after she gets off the drugs.

 

Okay, this is something that has been nagging at my brain and I can't decide whether or not it is something I should be thinking about.  There are certain shows that live and die not by the ability to write cohesive plots, but on the strength of personal drama despite the premise.  The Killing was one such show and Homeland tends to be another.  It tends to stand out because both premises would seem to call for tight plotting, yet in both instances, it often proves not to be the case.  

 

 

Homeland's not doing too badly this year.   Although that might be because they set such a low standard in seasons two and three for "Wait, what?  Really?  Carrie's reenacting a slasher film with Abu Nazir in an abandoned warehouse, while Brody offs the VP by remote control pace maker?  And now the Iranian bottle slasher is being recruited and....Oh brother."   So by those standards this season has been freaking tight in terms of plot.  Although there are still "nice plan, it only relies on everyone hitting their mark in that Hollywood way"  Like Aayan not face-planting as he flees the scene, or jumping from one roof to another and breaking a bone as people do and then positioning himself to see Carrie abducted.   That's an "everyone has to hit their mark" writing plot, not something anyone would really plan in that way.  

 

Anyway, I bring that up for a reason.  Whereas there's some evidence that there's still "Places Everybody!" plotting vs.  "this is what an agent might actually do" plotting by the characters....what the hell did Tasneen hope to accomplish by switching out those meds?  That is absolutely a Hit Your Mark plot, because she has no way of knowing when Carrie would ingest those drugs, no matter what their intended impact, no one really releases a "Hallucinate Your Ass Off" plot with a plan for it to go anywhere other than an asylum.   

 

Now maybe that was the point, but once again, too many factors could and probably would go wrong for it to work in anyway for a reasonably competent person to employ it.  What if Carrie's response to "Holy shit, what's wrong with me?"  is the very reasonable "Get a doctor!"  Or she quietly collapses in the corner and the CIA -- who bloody well knows about her mental illness -- gets her to a doctor and with all those tampered meds in Carrie's apartment they've just blown the fact that they have a mole within the embassy.  

 

So if you're going to essentially reveal that you have a source, shouldn't there be some point to that other than getting Carrie to feed Brody and Carrie shippers their yearly dose of "A Love for the Ages!" ?  

 

I'm assuming part of the point was to get her removed as station chief and at that point they didn't care about burning Duck to the ground, but you never know with this show.   The concept that the other Pakistani agent is in on it because he commented on Carrie speaking quickly seems unlikely because, again, that's a Hit Your Mark plot with no organic possibility.  They can't possibly have planned on Carrie running amok in the streets, being picked up by the PD (rather than splatted in traffic) and then having Exceptionally Good Looking Dude pull her and take her home for a bit of bemused "let me nurse you through this and have an incidental cuddle".  

 

So what the frak was the point of switching out her meds like that if they weren't trying to kill her? (<--- would be the only way that makes sense, which is why Exceptional Guy rescuing her indicates he's not in on any plan).  

 

That's how that should work, but ...well, this show and "suspension of disbelief...and reality....possibly physics and medical science too"  plotting, so who knows?

Edited November 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Constantinople]

I'd have to watch the scene between Haqqani and Saul again, but I thought that Haqqani at least did not deny that Osama bin Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.  His point being that "we", i.e. Afghanistan/Afghanis/people in the border areas/etc were not responsible, and that Osama and the hijackers weren't Afghani, or members of any of the various ethnic groups in Afghanistan or in the Pakistani border area.

 

In contrast, Minister Bunny told Saul that the 9/11 attacks were set-up by the Americans.

[Maximona]

 

That is absolutely a Hit Your Mark plot,

 

Ummm, no.  Bipolar medication is something that people take everyday since its effectiveness depends upon maintaining adequate blood levels of the med.  Tasneen knows this.

 

Symptoms do pitch and escalate, so it's not unrealistic that Carrie might want to take more if she feels the dose she took was inadequate for symptom control.

 

My quibble on this account was that Carrie, even at her most medicated, has strong paranoid tendencies and therefore would be the type to place a single hair in the bottle so she could tell whether it had been tampered with.  Even bad spies know they need to do stuff like that.  And Carrie is a reasonably good spy.

 

I don't think her condition is general knowledge.  Much was made about hiding it from her employers in Season 1, I seem to recall.  I confess, I lost interest in the show in Seasons 2 & 3, only tuned in intermittently.  Did she every come clean with her employers (apart from Saul?)  Maybe she did, but that would seem out of character to me.  Anyway, if her condition isn't widely known, no way she would jeopardize her position with a trip to the doctor.  Being Carrie, she would Tough It Out.

[polyhymnia]

I am hoping that Khan (he is still Zaf from Spooks to me) is not working with Tasmeen and I also noticed Carrie noticing her behavior at the sit down and am looking forward to some payoff from that moment, if Carrie ever becomes lucid again.  Khan seemed mildly disturbed that the airport footage was missing so perhaps he is conducting his own internal investigation.

 

I get the kid who played Aayan (who was in Life of Pi, right) mixed up with Dev Patel a little so I've been calling that kid "not Dev Patel."

 

I thought Haqqani having sex with Saul in the room was a lot over-the-top.

[Haleth]

I'm assuming part of the point was to get her removed as station chief and at that point they didn't care about burning Duck to the ground, but you never know with this show.   The concept that the other Pakistani agent is in on it because he commented on Carrie speaking quickly seems unlikely because, again, that's a Hit Your Mark plot with no organic possibility.  They can't possibly have planned on Carrie running amok in the streets, being picked up by the PD (rather than splatted in traffic) and then having Exceptionally Good Looking Dude pull her and take her home for a bit of bemused "let me nurse you through this and have an incidental cuddle". 

So what the frak was the point of switching out her meds like that if they weren't trying to kill her? (<--- would be the only way that makes sense, which is why Exceptional Guy rescuing her indicates he's not in on any plan).

 

Aren't Exceptional Guy and Tasneem working together?  I thought the plan was to get Carrie into custody so they could interrogate her while freaked out and vulnerable because of the drugs.  I don't think Exceptional Guy's motives are altruistic.  He may be playing Good Cop but he's not a Good Guy (however cute).  

 

(I've been calling the actress who plays Tasneem "Not Zuleikha Robinson.")

Edited November 12, 2014 by Haleth

[VioletMarx]

Ummm, no.  Bipolar medication is something that people take everyday since its effectiveness depends upon maintaining adequate blood levels of the med.  Tasneen knows this.

 

Symptoms do pitch and escalate, so it's not unrealistic that Carrie might want to take more if she feels the dose she took was inadequate for symptom control.

 

 

I think what that poster was saying was that fucking with Carrie's meds could have had any number of results, including Carrie passing out or Carrie going to a doctor, and that that would have ruined their "plan".  It doesn't seem realistic to me that a spy at Tasneem's level would hatch a plan to switch out the stations chief's med and hope she runs screaming into the streets where they can pick her up and...interrogate her, I guess? Have not Dev Patel bond with her?

 

Seems a bit on the hair-brained side to me.

 

[stillshimpy]

Ummm, no.  Bipolar medication is something that people take everyday since its effectiveness depends upon maintaining adequate blood levels of the med.  Tasneen knows this.

Symptoms do pitch and escalate, so it's not unrealistic that Carrie might want to take more if she feels the dose she took was inadequate for symptom control.

 

The term "hit your mark" has to do with filming, so I'm not sure what you mean by "Ummm, no." and I actually do know a fair amount about bipolar disorder, as one of my SILs is bipolar as is my oldest friend, but that doesn't make me an expert on it and I've no reason within the story to assume that Tasneen is either.  How different people react to changing blood levels will be very individual, so it's actually not something another person can predict for someone they don't know, even if they do, it's tough to predict.  

 

But by "hit your mark" I mean that it is the type of plot that looks good on paper, but in reality, someone would need to be prescient to know plan on something going down in exactly that manner, due to the fact there are too many variables.  

 

I think what that poster was saying was that fucking with Carrie's meds could have had any number of results, including Carrie passing out or Carrie going to a doctor, and that that would have ruined their "plan".

 

Precisely, a plan with that many variables isn't plan...it's a plot (as in the stuff of fictional construct).  

[stillshimpy]

Aren't Exceptional Guy and Tasneem working together?  I thought the plan was to get Carrie into custody so they could interrogate her while freaked out and vulnerable because of the drugs.  I don't think Exceptional Guy's motives are altruistic.  He may be playing Good Cop but he's not a Good Guy (however cute).

 

We don't know and we actually have some reason to believe that they may not be.  When Tasneem ordered Saul abducted, it was after Exceptional Guy had told her Saul was leaving the country.  In response to Exceptionally Good-Looking Guy (here forward to be know as EG, because I've n clue what the character name is) Tasneem (also exceptionally good-looking, but not a guy) replied, "good riddance" and went about her day.  

 

We know EG is ISI and that Tasneem is ISI AND working with terrorists.  EG's loyalties have yet to be determined and I'm guessing we're going to find out fairly promptly, but as of right now, we simply don't know.  He may have remarked that Carrie was speaking quickly because...quite simply, she looked like hell and was acting oddly, while speaking quickly.  She had dark circles under her eyes also.  

 

Again, they can't accurately plan for "then you can draw her aside and try to make her paranoid" as part of their plan because of all the things they don't know going into that situation, including when Carrie took meds, that she would speak to him outside of the meeting, it's as likely to be happenstance as anything else.  

Edited November 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Maximona]

I don't think what they put in Carrie's capsules was lithium or any of the other meds that Carrie takes routinely.  I think they swapped that for ketamine or some other cheap hallucinogenic.

 

The plot point has nothing to do with Carrie reacting to blood levels of meds which were prescribed for her.  The plot point has to do with her reaction to being dosed by a rather powerful hallucinogenic.  Which she swallows because she thinks it is a med she has to take daily.

 

Of course, since she doesn't know she was being dosed, her response when she starts hallucinating would be to assume her disease is spiraling out of control and so, to take more meds.

 

Of course, I'm not in close telepathic communication with the writers who spun this plot point, so I may have my head up my ass.  :-)

 

But I didn't think the writers were off their mark at all.  I thought they were standing right on the tape!  :-)

 

 

[stillshimpy]

The plot point has nothing to do with Carrie reacting to blood levels of meds which were prescribed for her.  The plot point has to do with her reaction to being dosed by a rather powerful hallucinogenic.  Which she swallows because she thinks it is a med she has to take daily.

 

Yes, I fully understand that.  Again, there's simply no way to accurately predict how anyone will react to ingesting a hallucinogenic drug in that "they were able to predict how it would manifest, so there was a plan to have her captured by the police and then EG could get her out of custody."  

 

That is a plot <--- part of a script, created by writers but would not be possible (because it is impossible to predict what Carrie would do upon reacting to the drug they stuffed in her capsules)  as plan in reality.   She could have collapsed and died.  She could have promptly gone to a doctor in the embassy and begged for help.  She could have leapt off a building.  She could have quietly curled up in a corner. She could have said, "Holy shit, Quinn, I'm tripping balls over here.  Hang with me."  She could have seen a unicorn, tried to make friends with and stayed put.  

 

Giving her a drug that would cause her to hallucinate isn't something they could predict the outcome of...which is why is would make a bad plan.  Hence the "that's a hit your mark plot" vs. a viable plan.  

 

I can not possibly be the only person here who has been around folks that are tripping, right?  I mean, I did live in Boulder CO for several years, and maybe that has skewed my frame of reference, but people who are hallucinating don't do so in any predictable fashion.  ..

 

Of course, since she doesn't know she was being dosed, her response when she starts hallucinating would be to assume her disease is spiraling out of control and so, to take more meds.

 

Also, again even if Carrie's response to a feeling she associates with mania is to take more meds (and that's not a given either) then the problem becomes when you give someone something that causes hallucinations....there is no way to plan around what they will do.  

Edited November 12, 2014 by stillshimpy