S04.E07: Redux

[Neurochick]

I thought Haqqani having sex with Saul in the room was a lot over-the-top.

 

 

That scene was very bizarre to me; I thought the computer jumped and I was watching "The Affair."  I don't know what the point of that scene was, it felt like it belonged in another show.  

 

And Haqqani's wife looked in pretty good shape for having, what looked like 10 children.  And is she is only wife because, to me,  she looked the same age as his son.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Neurochick

[Boundary]

I'm not sure how this could be seen as a "pay off," since Fara fucked up her assignment at the safe house. 

A pay off is a pay off whether someone fucked up before or not. Carrie fucked up before by sleeping with Brody but she made it up by using his daughter to get to him before he pulled the trigger in the White House. That was a pay off, despite her having fucked up prior. Besides, the pay off with Fara I was talking about isn't from the situation in the safe house, it's from the repeated use of her description as Carrie's protege. It's an off hand comment, even a backhand compliment, but its repeated use clearly identifies Fara's competence directly with Carrie. Since Carrie is the star of the show, one would assume at some point her (or someone in her team) will crack this case wide open, hence pay off. If Fara's one mistake negates any good that might come from her, then TPTB might as well write her off the show. Otherwise, it gives them a potential arc that shows growth. I believe it's the latter than will win the day.

[stillshimpy]

That scene was very bizarre to me; I thought the computer jumped and I was watching "The Affair."  I don't know what the point of that scene was, it felt like it belonged in another show. 

And Haqqani's wife looked in pretty good shape for having, what looked like 10 children.  And is she is only wife because, to me,  she looked the same age as his son.

 

I think Haqqani just wanted to make sure that Saul was physically proximate to him at all times, because whereas Haqqini was thanking god for his human shield, he had to know there was at least a slight possibility that seeing as Haqqini had been publicly declared dead in the press, the US might actually have dropped a bomb on his head anyway, and then simply covered up the nature of Saul's death.  

 

"Tragedy in Afghanistan today, when Saul Berresen , the former director of the CIA now working in private security, was killed when his convoy hit an IED while traveling in the region near the Pakistani border."  

 

It's been intriguing to me that the show has very much gone with the "They wouldn't kill Saul!" as some sort of motivating force within the actual government and he's not a head of state, or a public figure.  So it isn't a complete given and presumably Haqqani was a) going to have some sex after three years, no matter what and b) going to make sure that if he'd guessed wrong and the US went with a cover story, that they were all going to the afterlife as a group. 

 

Also, it really was a bizarre scene, because whereas I got that Haqqani might want to absolutely make sure that Saul was near by, it makes no sense with his religious conviction (which he doesn't appear to be feigning) that he would compromise his wife's modesty like that, if nothing else.  I mean, a huge part of the reason women where (edit: Oops didn't catch this until someone quoted it "wear" not "where")  head scarves that they then cover their faces with in more fundamentalist vs. of Islam is that women are not supposed to be seen by people who are not their relatives.  So they are only uncovered in their homes.   

 

No way, no how, even to humiliate Saul a bit, would the guy have been getting it on where Saul might see his wife.  

 

 

 

Besides, the pay off with Fara I was talking about isn't from the situation in the safe house, it's from the repeated use of her description as Carrie's protege. It's an off hand comment, even a backhand compliment, but its repeated use clearly identifies Fara's competence directly with Carrie. Since Carrie is the star of the show, one would assume at some point her (or someone in her team) will crack this case wide open, hence pay off.

 

I agree, there will be a flip-side to that coin for Fara.  She did screw something up, but I suspect she will redeem herself, because the show has made a point of illustrating that she's gifted and insightful, even if it didn't occur to her that someone had followed her to the safehouse and she failed to spot the clues that Duck was there.  She was distracted and that ended badly (understatement alert).  

 

But the  show has made a point of illustrating that Fara is a force with which to reckon when she's focusing.   

Edited November 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[CaughtOnTape]

Also, it really was a bizarre scene, because whereas I got that Haqqani might want to absolutely make sure that Saul was near by, it makes no sense with his religious conviction (which he doesn't appear to be feigning) that he would compromise his wife's modesty like that, if nothing else.  I mean, a huge part of the reason women where head scarves that they then cover their faces with in more fundamentalist vs. of Islam is that women are not supposed to be seen by people who are not their relatives.  So they are only uncovered in their homes.   

 

I thought this and then 2 things occurred to me that made it plausible....terrorists generally view Americans as inhuman and enjoy putting them in their place.  So it seemed rational to me that he'd have sex with Saul in the room as some kind of proof that "See?  You're nothing to me so I don't even give a shit if you see me doing something as intimate as having sex.  I am powerful, DAMMIT!"

Also....and this is purely conjecture from themes I've seen on other shows regarding terrorists, especially the leaders.....the face they project to their followers and to the world is quite different from the person they truly are.  Most are portrayed as turning away from their religion when not in the presence of those who are not trusted.  Kind of like a Jim Jones or David Koresh type of thing where they were real dipshits, addicted to drugs, paranoid, losers who sexually abused anyone in a 5 foot radius to anyone who wasn't a follower.  But to their followers they were their religious answer to everything.

 

If any of those made sense....lol

Edited November 12, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[LotusFlower]

 

I agree, there will be a flip-side to that coin for Fara.  She did screw something up, but I suspect she will redeem herself, because the show has made a point of illustrating that she's gifted and insightful, even if it didn't occur to her that someone had followed her to the safehouse and she failed to spot the clues that Duck was there.  She was distracted and that ended badly (understatement alert).  

 

But the  show has made a point of illustrating that Fara is a force with which to reckon when she's focusing.

To me, this is a classic suspension of disbelief while watching tv. In any kind of career, let alone spy work, there are screw ups, and then there are screw ups, and Fara dropping the ball at the safe house was a shocking mistake that shows a lack of attention to detail that can't be excused in her line of work. But since this is fiction, I agree she'll get the opportunity to redeem herself. I only wonder if they'll trace the mistake back to the safe house screw up, or if that goes undetected.

[stillshimpy]

If any of those made sense....lol

 

Absolutely does, and I think it's a good and fair point.  

[Haleth]

(Responding to Shimpy from the previous page.). Perhaps the thought was if Carrie stayed in the embassy or in her apartment, so be it, but once she left the grounds (and I admit that the fact she left by the super secret exit is a problem) she was being followed by ISI operatives? Maybe they didn't even care if she stepped in front of a car (which she did) or put herself in danger as long as they could grab her if an opportunity arose? I don't know. These are the same writers who do 24 so viewers are supposed to ignore lapses of logic.

With regard to Fara's screw up, as long as she's with the Scooby gang the only people who might realize she failed to report the break in are Carrie, Quinn, and Max. Does the CIA know anything yet about Carrie stowing Aayan at the house?

Edited November 12, 2014 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

I don't know. These are the same writers who do 24 so viewers are supposed to ignore lapses of logic.

 

Yeah, there's that too :-)    

[Boundary]

With regard to Fara's screw up, as long as she's with the Scooby gang the only people who might realize she failed to report the break in are Carrie, Quinn, and Max. Does the CIA know anything yet about Carrie stowing Aayan at the house?

 

They do now. That phone call alerted them to any intimacy that happened but they must have been briefed beforehand about Aayan and the attempts to lure him into leading them to Haqqani. But the operation is apparently top secret, anyone not in the ops room (save for Fara and Saul) is not in the loop. But since the operation went legit, there must be some official report somewhere. And Saul's capture, and the apparently not dead Haqqani, need background briefing which requires Aayan's situation to be revealed.

 

As for Fara's screw up, no one is aware of it yet and when they do, I suppose it's Carrie's job to reprimand her. But this is Homeland, a sister show to 24, where Javadi can get away with murder if he offers intelligence value. Also, when the Boyd mess comes out, his wife, Carrie and other senior staff members will be more accountable. Again, it'll be up to Carrie how much she shields Fara, just like how Carrie often sought Saul's protection and how Quinn is protected by Dar Adal. Just like everywhere, many times professionalism takes a back seat compared to office politics.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Boundary

[bunnywithanaxe]

...the Scooby gang...

heeheeheeheeheehee...

[paramitch]

I'm assuming part of the point was to get her removed as station chief and at that point they didn't care about burning Duck to the ground, but you never know with this show.  The concept that the other Pakistani agent is in on it because he commented on Carrie speaking quickly seems unlikely because, again, that's a Hit Your Mark plot with no organic possibility.  They can't possibly have planned on Carrie running amok in the streets, being picked up by the PD (rather than splatted in traffic) and then having Exceptionally Good Looking Dude pull her and take her home for a bit of bemused "let me nurse you through this and have an incidental cuddle".  

 

So what the frak was the point of switching out her meds like that if they weren't trying to kill her? (<--- would be the only way that makes sense, which is why Exceptional Guy rescuing her indicates he's not in on any plan).  

 

I think this is a good question, but for me the jury's kind of still out because I want to know what they dosed her with. If they outright poisoned her or introduced something totally foreign, it was a risk, but if they simply either gave her a placebo (unlikely given her escalation here) or changed meds quantities or something, then there's still plausible deniability in terms of how/when it happened (for instance, if Carrie's messed-up enough, they could simply attribute these things to her illness, stress levels, etc.)

But even if it's other meds (which ups the chance that the ruse will be discovered), I still buy them taking this action simply as a great way to destabilize the office right when they need everyone on point. Instead, if their plan works, Crazy Carrie can barely function, and (even better for them) is imploding all over the place right in front of high-ranking government officials. She may even kill herself or get herself killed or captured, all of which takes the pressure off them and allows them to operate with more impunity.

So for me, that's the point -- sowing chaos. Chaos is good for them. In some ways, Carrie's just a bomb armed and waiting to go off, and almost anything she does might prove beneficial to them. And if it's discovered that her meds WERE switched, Dennis is expendable (and again, the fallout once it's discovered Boyd's husband is a traitor is harmful to the U.S. and their operations and all to the good for them). I don't think Tasneen cares about Dennis's safety. I think she (and the rest of ISI) is simply using Dennis up as fast as she can, sowing as much damage and destruction before he's found out (which let's face it, he could already have been half a dozen times over).

 

So to me it all still works believably in terms of why they'd do something like dose Carrie. 

 

 

Besides, the pay off with Fara I was talking about isn't from the situation in the safe house, it's from the repeated use of her description as Carrie's protege. It's an off hand comment, even a backhand compliment, but its repeated use clearly identifies Fara's competence directly with Carrie. Since Carrie is the star of the show, one would assume at some point her (or someone in her team) will crack this case wide open, hence pay off. If Fara's one mistake negates any good that might come from her, then TPTB might as well write her off the show. Otherwise, it gives them a potential arc that shows growth. I believe it's the latter than will win the day.

I also expect this payoff both to steel Fara's resolve and commitment after we've seen her visibly waver all season, and also because we had a second instance in which Quinn complimented her as well (interestingly, echoing Tasneen's compliment to Dennis almost verbatim: "You have a talent for this/You're good at this.").

 

Also, it really was a bizarre scene, because whereas I got that Haqqani might want to absolutely make sure that Saul was near by, it makes no sense with his religious conviction (which he doesn't appear to be feigning) that he would compromise his wife's modesty like that, if nothing else.  I mean, a huge part of the reason women where (edit: Oops didn't catch this until someone quoted it "wear" not "where")  head scarves that they then cover their faces with in more fundamentalist vs. of Islam is that women are not supposed to be seen by people who are not their relatives.  So they are only uncovered in their homes.   

 

No way, no how, even to humiliate Saul a bit, would the guy have been getting it on where Saul might see his wife.   

My take on this was that it rather poignantly illustrates the subtext that to Haqqani, Saul is not a person. He's a dead man walking, a nonentity and an unbeliever. I thought the setup was somewhat believable, as the room was shrouded but Haqqani would still be able to know Saul was safely in proximity (the only thing he cares about). Why should Haqqani care about what Saul sees? Saul is an unperson to him. Meanwhile, I thought Saul's acute embarrassment was beautifully played by Mandy Patinkin--the rigid jaw, the head turned away in distaste, were perfect. Saul is a proud and private man, and the entire situation must be excruciating and humiliating for him.

 

Perhaps the thought was if Carrie stayed in the embassy or in her apartment, so be it, but once she left the grounds (and I admit that the fact she left by the super secret exit is a problem) she was being followed by ISI operatives? Maybe they didn't even care if she stepped in front of a car (which she did) or put herself in danger as long as they could grab her if an opportunity arose?

 

This is what I basically took away from it as well. If Carrie dies, great. If she goes bonkers and can't function, great. If they can pick her up and question her or take her out, greater still. I think to them there's no downside.

 

As for Fara's screw up, no one is aware of it yet and when they do, I suppose it's Carrie's job to reprimand her. But this is Homeland, a sister show to 24, where Javadi can get away with murder if he offers intelligence value. Also, when the Boyd mess comes out, his wife, Carrie and other senior staff members will be more accountable. Again, it'll be up to Carrie how much she shields Fara, just like how Carrie often sought Saul's protection and how Quinn is protected by Dar Adal.

I think what will be interesting, isn't so much whether Carrie reprimands Fara, but Fara's reaction to the knowledge that she herself was the one who killed the operation (and Aayan). Fara's crises of conscience, while I understand them, have been a little tiring for me, especially watching her judge Carrie, and with more than a hint of smugness around the edges. So yeah, I think Fara is going to be (and should be) upset with herself when she realizes that it was she who botched everything, not Carrie, not Quinn.  But I suspect she and Quinn are going to come through in a way that will repair or resolve the situation or (I hope) save Saul and get Haqqani. 

[LotusFlower]

I think what will be interesting, isn't so much whether Carrie reprimands Fara, but Fara's reaction to the knowledge that she herself was the one who killed the operation (and Aayan).

Do you think they'll trace it back to the safe house?

[WearyTraveler]

Do you think they'll trace it back to the safe house?

I think it's possible.  The Ambassador's husband took pictures to show the female ISI officer.  I think Carrie, at some point, will go through the pictures left in her office and realize some of them are missing.  She saw Aayan looking at the pictures, then we saw Fara picking up the pictures, then we saw the professor showing the ISI woman the pictures, then we had a line (before Aayan was killed) informing Carrie the stuff from the safe house was in her office and she said that it could wait.  It's presumably still waiting to be sorted, cataloged, and filed.

 

My guess is that Carrie suffers a great deal with the ISI people, whether hot military officer is in on the plan or not.  But, eventually she will go back to the embassy.  They'll probably demote her and tell her she's too much of a risk because of her illness, she'll feel defeated and depressed.  She'll be in her office, picking up (possibly because she's being sent home in shame) and she'll go through the bags.  She will then have a "revelation" and start connecting the dots of the missing pictures.  She'll get frantic asking Fara what happened when she was cleaning up the safe house.  Some people will think she's on the crazy train again. But, evenetually, this will all lead to Carrie discovering the mole inside the embassy and redeeming herself in the eyes of the CIA.

 

Incidentally, it's funny how they make such a big deal out a mole at the embassy.  It's my understanding that every single embassy of every country in the world is always at risk of having spies within.  They need to hire people to clean and cook and stuff, and they usually don't bring those workers from their own countries, they hire locally.  Everyone is aware of that, so hosting governments place their own spies in the hiring pool.  There are protocols, off course, to avoid any of these spies getting information.  Within large embassies there are "safe" rooms which are swept for bugs twice a day, so people can have top secret conversations, same with dedicated phone lines.  At any one point in time there could be not one but several spies within any embassy.

Edited November 13, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[shapeshifter]

...again even if Carrie's response to a feeling she associates with mania is to take more meds (and that's not a given either) then the problem becomes when you give someone something that causes hallucinations....there is no way to plan around what they will do....

I just recalled (and perhaps the writers did too) an anecdote about Bin Laden's reaction to seeing on TV the twin towers collapse on 9/11: He was both delighted and surprised that they had collapsed; he wasn't even sure they would succeed in hitting any of the targets--as did fail to happen with the plane in Pennsylvania that was taken down by passengers before reaching the White House. It was a complex plan with many more moving parts than the pill switching in this episode, but in both cases, any effect would be a win.

It would be interesting (and more CSI-ish) if they get the Ambassador's husband's finger prints off of the remaining fake pills in the bottle. BTW, I'm guessing he replaced only 12 because more would have been fatal? That implies they want her alive (of course) and also that they aren't placebos.

I seem to recall from some CSI or SVU or other episode that GHB or ketamine isn't traceable in the blood after about 12 hours, so maybe that was it, or not.

Edited November 13, 2014 by shapeshifter

[stillshimpy]

Good points ,if the theory is just "to cause disruption and to sideline Carrie" and that's all the plan was ...that actually makes a bit of sense because Haqqini actually was aware of her as the woman who had duped his nephew.  It didn't need to be a particularly logical or pointed plan if it was essentially Haqqini ordering whatever revenge he could on Carrie.  

 

It's also possible the intent was simply to be fatal.  

 

 

 

I don't think Tasneen cares about Dennis's safety. I think she (and the rest of ISI) is simply using Dennis up as fast as she can, sowing as much damage and destruction before he's found out (which let's face it, he could already have been half a dozen times over).

 

I think Tasneem clearly doesn't care about Dennis's safety and I suppose that if he gets caught, that gets filed under a "win" too simply because of the embarrassment to the ambassador.  Seems an odd move to make when they have such good access to whatever information Dennis can get, but again, it occurred to me that the reason for doing that was actually personal as much as professional, not on Tasneem's part, but on Haqqini's part. 

 

When Haqqini shot Aayan in the head, one of the surprising things about that was how incredibly unnecessary it was.  Aayan had done all the harm he could do and he done so entirely unintentionally, killing Aayan actually didn't make a bunch of sense other than as an up yours to Carrie and the CIA.   

The drugging has to only follow that kind of logic, vs.  "What did they plan to have happen?" and the answer pretty much needs to be "anything that would fuck Carrie up and over is what Haqqini wanted".    If it wasn't strategic -- and it's a bad plan as strategy -- then it was personal and there's actually reason to think it was personal.  

 

Anyway, it only really matters because of EG's role, because that might actually mean he's not in any way in on this, and he just actually helped and saved Carrie.  Now that part actually makes some sense, even if it couldn't planned to have happen.  The police are famously corrupt, upon landing an American woman associated with the embassy, it makes sense that they informed EG.  

 

However, I'm going to wait and see, because the show has a history of "just pretend that makes sense, okay?" in other areas so they can go for the grand drama of something.  

 

Why should Haqqani care about what Saul sees? Saul is an unperson to him.

 

That doesn't really work though, I don't think, paramitch because Haqqini's wife was covered -- in something slightly more fetching than the average burqa, of course (that wasn't a burqa ) because....TV -- and being covered in front of unbelievers is extremely important.   

 

I think it was just the show going for a bit of illustrative dramatic license, and then continuing the recurring dark-humor joke of Saul being in the most mortifying positions as he has to be far too proximate to people screwing in the course of his job.  Remember that Carrie and Brody scene where they gave Saul lines with "fucking" over and over?  "She's trying to prevent a fucking attack!"  it was hilarious, but dark as hell and I think they just revisited that to drive a point home.  

 

paramitch, since we've been typing at each other since the BSG days, I'm sure you'll have seen me say this before, but it's sort of like the contract that scifi fans agree to when watching that genre, there will be moments of "Yeah...we know...don't think about it too much and just go with it, okay?"  Suspension of disbelief for other dramatic payoffs.  The easiest example of this kind of thing was Stargate: All the Alien Worlds speak English.  Yeah, we know, just go with it.  We didn't want to waste airtime week after week, translating and we forgot to write in any kind of lantern on it, so just go with it.  

 

And I think Saul being nearby is that "Wait....that actually wouldn't....." "Yeah, but what we're trying to show here is that Haqqini is literally chaining Saul up like the Capitalist Running Dog , okay? It's there to make a point about how Haqqini views the West and Saul, okay?"  

 

So in that instance, okay.  

Edited November 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Constantinople]

I think what will be interesting, isn't so much whether Carrie reprimands Fara, but Fara's reaction to the knowledge that she herself was the one who killed the operation (and Aayan). Fara's crises of conscience, while I understand them, have been a little tiring for me, especially watching her judge Carrie, and with more than a hint of smugness around the edges. So yeah, I think Fara is going to be (and should be) upset with herself when she realizes that it was she who botched everything, not Carrie, not Quinn.  But I suspect she and Quinn are going to come through in a way that will repair or resolve the situation or (I hope) save Saul and get Haqqani.

I'm a little confused about how Fara killed the operation and Aayan, but my memory is also a little hazy, so I may have either forgotten a few things, or made a few up.

When everyone was waiting for Haqqani to show-up for Aayan, Carrie said they'd take out Haqqani even if it meant Aayan was killed too. For that matter, Carrie still ordered the drone strike even after Haqqani showed that he had Saul.

Since Quinn intervened to stop the drone strike, Haqqani and Saul are still alive, and Haqqani shot Aayan, but Aayan would have been dead either way.

Even if Fara told Carrie about what Fara saw at the safe house, Carrie might still have sent Aayan on his way on the grounds that it was still their best chance to take out Haqqani. And Aayan would still be dead.

Or Carrie might have tried to get Aayan to return to Islamabad before seeing is uncle. In that case, Aayan is essentially "dead" to the CIA as a means of tracking Haqqani anyway.

Which isn't to say I thought Fara did a great job cleaning up the safe house, but regardless of what she did, Aayan was either dead or useless as stalking horse.

[stillshimpy]

I'm a little confused about how Fara killed the operation and Aayan, but my memory is also a little hazy, so I may have either forgotten a few things, or made a few up.

 

She did though, Constantinople .  The way Tasneem and Haqqini (Haqqani? Not sure) learned that Aayan had been duped by the CIA was when she was sent to the safehouse to clean up.  Somehow failed to notice that Dennis -- the least Clandestine Spycraft Perpetrator -- had followed her (it apparently didn't occur to her that is the sort of thing she should be trying to look for).  She didn't practice any kind of decent security around pictures of Aayan, personal family photographs that would indicate that he'd been in that CIA safehouse.  She really, really failed to do some simple math about the bag being sloppily opened and the window repair even more sloppily left flapping and therefore didn't notify anyone that "I think some photographs were taken".  

 

Dennis took them, gave them to Tasneem and here's how the operation was blown by that:  It made Haqqani drag Saul along to that meet-up because he knew the CIA would be watching.  I think they always intended to trade Saul for prisoners as a hostage, and Fara, unwittingly turned him into the handy human shield.  The pictures aren't found? Then Haqqani might not go to the nephew meetup, but he wouldn't have thought to bring along Saul as a CIA repellent if he hadn't known: Shit, my nephew, the goodhearted fool boinked a CIA operative.  Grab Saul and let's show him off to a drone." 

 

That happened because Dennis grabbed the photos Fara led him to.  

Edited November 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Constantinople]

Dennis took them, gave them to Tasneem and here's how the operation was blown by that:  It made Haqqani drag Saul along to that meet-up because he knew the CIA would be watching.  I think they always intended to trade Saul for prisoners as a hostage, and Fara, unwittingly turned him into the handy human shield.

Saul was already a captive, Haqqani hasn't been able to travel freely for years, and Haqqani thinks the CIA won't bomb/drone him while Saul is around. Given that, I don't see why Haqqani wouldn't bring Saul along as a human shield regardless of whether Haqqani thought his nephew Aayan had been duped by the CIA.

 

The pictures aren't found? Then Haqqani might not go to the nephew meetup

If Fara does her job properly, the pictures aren't found. If the pictures aren't found, then Haqqani doesn't meet with is nephew. But the whole point of the operation was for Haqqani to meet with his nephew. So the operation is blown just as much as if the pictures had been found.

Seems like Fara is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

 

but he wouldn't have thought to bring along Saul as a CIA repellent if he hadn't known: Shit, my nephew, the goodhearted fool boinked a CIA operative.  Grab Saul and let's show him off to a drone."

Once again, I think Haqqani would have brought Saul around anyway since Haqqani calculated there's no downside, and a lot of upside to having Saul around. It's not as if Haqqani stopped using Saul as a human shield once Aayan was dead.

Besides, for Saul to be a human shield, Saul had to get captured and Saul getting captured was largely Saul's fault. Like a dope, he walked into a bathroom without knowing who was in there. moreover, as a former director of the CIA and longtime CIA agent, he knows or should have known that some of the security forces responsible for guarding the airport are sympathetic or in league with Haqqani.

And what about Carrie? Perhaps if she answered her phone in a more timely manner, they could have used a drone to follow the car that had Saul in the trunk. The might very well have found out that Saul was a captive earlier.

[Bcharmer]

BTW, I'm guessing he replaced only 12 because more would have been fatal?

 

I think he counted the pills that she had, and replaced them with the exact same amount, which makes sense, of course.

[parandroid]

.... But this is Homeland, a sister show to 24, where Javadi can get away with murder if he offers intelligence value.....

I wish it weren't so, but this is where the show is actually more realistic than any of the other shows on TV. The US has a well known track record of collaborating with brutal, sadistic, and close to genocidal regimes, simply because it was expedient. See Chile, Nicaragua, Iran (yes, before they were part of the axis of evil, they were our partner in arms in inflicting pain on the iranians), and many others.

[paramitch]

paramitch, since we've been typing at each other since the BSG days, I'm sure you'll have seen me say this before, but it's sort of like the contract that scifi fans agree to when watching that genre, there will be moments of "Yeah...we know...don't think about it too much and just go with it, okay?"  Suspension of disbelief for other dramatic payoffs.  The easiest example of this kind of thing was Stargate: All the Alien Worlds speak English.  Yeah, we know, just go with it.  We didn't want to waste airtime week after week, translating and we forgot to write in any kind of lantern on it, so just go with it.  

 

And I think Saul being nearby is that "Wait....that actually wouldn't....." "Yeah, but what we're trying to show here is that Haqqini is literally chaining Saul up like the Capitalist Running Dog , okay? It's there to make a point about how Haqqini views the West and Saul, okay?"  

 

So in that instance, okay.  

 

First off, Stillshimpy <raises a glass to our BSG days>! Here's to good TV times...

 

And on the Haqqani sex scene, I do think all of your points are good ones. The thing I do wonder, however, is, if Haqqani is absolutely secure that Saul cannot survive this situation, that he is a walking, breathing dead man, does that change it for him at all? I definitely think the covered/uncovered aspect is certainly poetic license (and my ignorance is showing), but to me there is a certain logic to me that he doesn't want Saul out of his sight. Saul is his meal ticket, his human shield, his insurance. I found it less realistic that Saul would be put in a more conventional cell later on, because again, once he's out of sight, things can happen (for instance, Saul could kill himself while Haqqani still needs him). As others have mentioned, it may also be a subtle hallmark that Haqqani is less 'devout' at home than outside of it.

 

I think our thresholds may just be different here (which leads to awesome discussions from each side of the fence). For me, "Homeland" has always had this heightened, almost operatic tension, and for me the acting is so good and the situations are so genuinely interesting, that if they can keep the universe believable for me (which they do, overall), I'm able to enjoy it. And I like the way this season is giving us a more ensemble-show "Homeland" (fittingly, after the loss of Brody, which was a game-changer). I have a few little "It's a TV show" moments but as with the meds situation, to me it's feasible that they'd use their access to Carrie that way to try to destabilize her and her office, so I buy it.

 

Speaking of Brody, I found that final scene, just so poignant. I didn't see it as pandering to fans with Carrie+Brody once again, I just thought it was a cruel and heartbreaking moment for Carrie, all the more so because she was so happy that the past could be undone. I was sad for Brody (whose death moved me, and I do miss Damian Lewis's blue eyes on this show), I was sad for Carrie, whose subconscious had been unlocked in such a naked and embarrassing way, it was all so tragic because it was unreal, because Carrie has unfinished business with Brody until the end of time, basically, and because I was always acutely aware that I was watching what for Carrie was this hugely moving and relieved moment and I knew it was all (thanks to the previous POV moments) in her head even before Khan confirmed it.

 

It also brought something kind of odd home to me, which is the way spycraft requires all these people to be so cold, yet they must also fight against their own potential for humanity when it pushes them into intimate situations. Just as Carrie understandably felt something for Aayan even while maneuvering him as an asset with sex, so I wondered how Khan felt, sitting there, holding this sobbing and absolutely destroyed woman in his lap at the end here. 

 

EDITED TO ADD: Constantinople, I don't agree that Haqqani would not have agreed to meet Aayan if the pictures had not been found. He'd met with the boy in the middle of the city previously without hesitation. I think he would have met and he probably would have helped him and the CIA would have gotten a major coup. So I do think Fara's mistake was a game-changer -- yes, Aayan was probably doomed either way, but as it is, Fara's mistake did directly lead to Haqqani's knowledge and Aayan's death.

Edited November 13, 2014 by paramitch

[Neurochick]

My take on this was that it rather poignantly illustrates the subtext that to Haqqani, Saul is not a person. He's a dead man walking, a nonentity and an unbeliever. I thought the setup was somewhat believable, as the room was shrouded but Haqqani would still be able to know Saul was safely in proximity (the only thing he cares about). Why should Haqqani care about what Saul sees? Saul is an unperson to him. Meanwhile, I thought Saul's acute embarrassment was beautifully played by Mandy Patinkin--the rigid jaw, the head turned away in distaste, were perfect. Saul is a proud and private man, and the entire situation must be excruciating and humiliating for him.

 

 

That's an interesting point and it sort of makes sense.  However, some might think  "damn these people are like dogs/squirrels/rats, don't care where they fuck or who's watching."

Edited November 13, 2014 by Neurochick

[LotusFlower]

If Fara does her job properly, the pictures aren't found. If the pictures aren't found, then Haqqani doesn't meet with is nephew. But the whole point of the operation was for Haqqani to meet with his nephew. So the operation is blown just as much as if the pictures had been found.

But Haqqani knew the drone was following Aayan to the meet only because of the Intel (pictures). If he hadn't learned this, then he wouldn't haven't suspected anything, and both the meet, and Carrie's operation, would have proceeded as planned.

(Incidentally, there was also an itinerary with Aayan's new name and travel info. that Boyd passed on along with the pictures. Not sure if that's important.)

[WearyTraveler]

I think Aayan was going to die either way, so, I'm not sure Fara is responsible for his death, but she's responsible for the means of death (the uncle instead of one of Carrie's drones).

 

What is totally on Fara is the failure of the operation in a MAJOR way and increasing the danger to Saul.  Haqqani was sure the world thought he was dead, so sure, in fact, that he met with his nephew in Islamabad, in the middle of the day.  They manipulated the CIA into droning the wedding so that the CIA would think he was dead.  After that, he could move more freely.  The pictures revealed that the CIA knew Haqqani was alive.  Why would the CIA be so interested in Aayan otherwise?  This changed Haqqani's strategy and sent him into survival mode again. 

 

If Haqqani had still believed the CIA thought he was dead, he might have shown up to the meeting with Aayan without Saul and with a lot less security.  He decided to use Saul as a human shield and with the two additional identical cars because he knew the CIA knew he was alive.

 

Had Carrie's plan worked, Aayan would have probably died when Carrie ordered the drone operator to fire on Haqqani, so, he was going to die, either way.  Fara's actions resulted in his uncle killing him, but he was a dead man walking from the moment he decided to trust Carrie.

Edited November 13, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[bunnywithanaxe]

That's an interesting point and it sort of makes sense.  However, some might think  "damn these people are like dogs/squirrels/rats, don't care where they fuck or who's watching."

It occurred to me that from Saul's POV, the scene might not be as visible as it was to us. The camera kind of pressed its nose against that curtain.

[stillshimpy]

I think Aayan was going to die either way, so, I'm not sure Fara is responsible for his death, but she's responsible for the means of death (the uncle instead of one of Carrie's drones).

 

What is totally on Fara is the failure of the operation in a MAJOR way and increasing the danger to Saul.  Haqqani was sure the world thought he was dead, so sure, in fact, that he met with his nephew in Islamabad, in the middle of the day.

 

Agreed.  Aayan was one doomed Med Student either way, but I think it is fair to say that Haqqani being alerted to the CIA's connection to Aayan changed the nature of his death from 'collateral damage' to 'completely senseless loss of life' in at least Carrie's mind.  Although this entire season truly seems to be about "Why is it that we are, as a nation, at peace with the concept of collateral damage?"  (that's the question I think the series is exploring via Carrie this season, not the question I'm asking, by the way).  

 

Carrie knew Aayan was going to die.  Fara knew also.  He was very likely to be proximate to Haqqani when they dropped a bomb on him.   That was going to lead to Aayan's death, but I think Carrie believed that, while regrettable, it was still in the service of "right" .  That Aayan would be killed, but that it would spare countless others a similar fate.  Acceptable loss of life.  Sacrificing someone for the greater good, and all that.  

 

That's part of what led Carrie to screaming for the bomb to be dropped regardless.  She didn't actually want Aayan to die, she just thought it was an acceptable loss when it was for something, in the service of something.  It would still suck, because I think she genuinely liked him (he was likable) , despite what she said to Fara about being an adult and running drugs, etc.  she knew that wasn't why Aayan helped Haqqani.  He helped Haqqani because he was family and Aayan loved him.  

 

So he died pointlessly.  Although he was almost certainly always going to die, his death was just another senseless tragedy.  No one else spared because of it.  Just a nice young man, who didn't have a chance in life to be jaded enough to spot how many people were conning him in his last days when he also would have been grief-stricken from the loss of his family.  

 

I'm rather glad that at least Aayan died not understanding that his uncle had already participated in setting him up to die at that wedding though.  

Edited November 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Boundary]

The pictures revealed that the CIA knew Haqqani was alive.  Why would the CIA be so interested in Aayan otherwise?  This changed Haqqani's strategy and sent him into survival mode again. 

 

Saul abduction preceded everything else, Aayan was still in Carrie's bed when Saul was stuck in the car boot. So Haqqani's survival mode, if it involved Saul, was already on. How long did they think it'll be before Saul was discovered to be missing? And if Saul was originally meant to be exchanged for other prisoners, who exactly would they be dealing with? Haqqani knew his ruse was short term, he was always on survival mode and Saul is currently just a means to see his family again.

 

Had Carrie's plan worked, Aayan would have probably died when Carrie ordered the drone operator to fire on Haqqani, so, he was going to die, either way.  Fara's actions resulted in his uncle killing him, but he was a dead man walking from the moment he decided to trust Carrie.

 

 

Which is why Fara, sincerely I think, told Carrie they all sent Aayan to his death. Does Carrie feel like shit coz nothing came of it? No, I think it's preying on her mind that she sent Aayan to his death the moment she landed in Islamabad. It's a collective guilt thing. Fara's mistake is less a proximate cause than Boyd's luck; Boyd got lucky but he's been lucky for a while. His wife suspects nothing, has not suspected anything even since the days him and Sandy were trading secrets for intel. Fara is just a convenience, the main cause is the mole, Boyd. And when a mole runs riot, I think it's the counter intelligence system that should be held accountable, no one is blaming Carrie for not changing her locks and in the same way Fara made a mistake but shouldn't be made to hold the whole can. 

 

The way I look at it, Carrie and her team initially outplayed Tasneem but she caught up. She seems competent and formidable that way. But the game isn't over yet, there's still time on the clock. Fara's fumble might turn out not to be that decisive, so let's not crucify her on the phone ins before the game has finished. I'll stop the sport metaphor now ...

Edited November 14, 2014 by Boundary

[WearyTraveler]

Well, for the record, I'm not trying to crucify anybody.  I don't feel that passionate about the characters in this series.  I think Season 1 was its best, and they should have had the guts to reveal Brody as a terrorist, and have Carrie kill him.  Damian Lewis is a wonderful actor and probably the only reason why the Brody "redemption" storyline almost worked.  But instead, they waited to kill Brody until it almost killed the show to have him on.  I think this season is an improvement over 2 and 3 but nowhere near as good as one.

 

What I was saying in my previous post is that everyone does have a responsibility for the direct consequences of their actions.  We can always trace back and try to identify who got the ball rolling, so, yeah, first it was Boyd, but before that it was Sandy (who got Boyd involved), and before that it was Nazeem, and before that it was Bin Laden, and before that it was the US government for training Bin Laden, and before that it was Russia, for invading Afghanistan.... and so on, back through history until we get to Adam and Eve and that business with the apple :D  (funny side note: a popular cartoon in LATAM in the 60s had one character -a precocious child -  stating that she had been told that the world was a mess because of the original sin of Eve biting into the apple; after which the child, horrified at the thought that such a little thing as an apple could cause so much pain and misery, wonders what state we'd be in if Eve had decided to eat a watermelon instead).

 

I wasn't trying to pin Aayan's death on Fara, but the fact that it was his uncle who killed him came about because the uncle found out Ayan had been played by the CIA, and he found that out because Fara fucked up.  Is Fara the only one that fucks up? Not at all.  Everyone does.

 

That said, I disagree with your assertion that "Fara's mistake is less a proximate cause than Boyd's luck".  Boyd wasn't lucky.  Fara was distracted, she wasn't on her game, she was followed, she failed to notice that the pictures were taken, even though there were clues all over the place.  She failed to tell her driver to wait outside and be on the lookout.  She failed to spot a trail.  That's all on her. Had she noticed the pictures were taken and run out the door right then, she might have seen Boyd walking away and perhaps been able to stop him.  Had she told her driver to wait for her, Boyd might have not been able to enter the house and steal the pictures.  Boyd's luck had nothing to do with it.

[shapeshifter]

Agreed. Aayan was one doomed Med Student either way, but I think it is fair to say that Haqqani being alerted to the CIA's connection to Aayan changed the nature of his death from 'collateral damage' to 'completely senseless loss of life' in at least Carrie's mind. Although this entire season truly seems to be about "Why is it that we are, as a nation, at peace with the concept of collateral damage?" (that's the question I think the series is exploring via Carrie this season, not the question I'm asking, by the way).

Carrie knew Aayan was going to die. Fara knew also. He was very likely to be proximate to Haqqani when they dropped a bomb on him. That was going to lead to Aayan's death, but I think Carrie believed that, while regrettable, it was still in the service of "right" . That Aayan would be killed, but that it would spare countless others a similar fate. Acceptable loss of life. Sacrificing someone for the greater good, and all that.

That's part of what led Carrie to screaming for the bomb to be dropped regardless. She didn't actually want Aayan to die, she just thought it was an acceptable loss when it was for something, in the service of something....

--and/or she was angry at herself for ordering (hesitantly) the bomb that killed the wedding party and further screwing up the life of a med student instead actually helping him.

Then, when Haqqani shot Aayan (instead of Carrie dropping a bomb on him as collateral damage), she wanted to take her anger out on a strategically acceptable target (bomb Haqqani). Carrie is then a metaphor for how many view soldiers of various ranks.

I recall Bill Mahr saying shortly after the invasion of Iraq that it was as if a school yard bully (Taliban in Afghanistan) had beaten us (the U.S.) up, so we went to the bully's cousin (Iraq) around the corner and beat him up. It was on a late night talk show.

Edited November 14, 2014 by shapeshifter

[paramitch]

Although this entire season truly seems to be about "Why is it that we are, as a nation, at peace with the concept of collateral damage?"  (that's the question I think the series is exploring via Carrie this season, not the question I'm asking, by the way).  

 

I agree that this is a powerful and definite subtext to the season. This question also makes Quinn as a character that much more important and interesting to me this season. He started out this season by trying to upend the chess board and getting out of play entirely, but his own training betrayed him -- he couldn't leave the war behind so easily. Then in this episode, we had Saul and Haqqani literally discussing the price each side pays, while we also have Fara telling Carrie, "We all [killed] Aayan." For this reason, I also liked that as Carrie unraveled in this episode, she showed the doubts and guilts that she's compartmentalized and shut away before now -- in everyday life, she doesn't dare to stop what she's doing long enough to ask if the price is worth it.

 

The way I look at it, Carrie and her team initially outplayed Tasneem but she caught up. She seems competent and formidable that way. But the game isn't over yet, there's still time on the clock. Fara's fumble might turn out not to be that decisive, so let's not crucify her on the phone ins before the game has finished. I'll stop the sport metaphor now ...

I definitely agree that Tasneem is a formidable opponent. I honestly find her and her quiet competence to be scarier than Haqqani, in a way. She's unpredictable, to me, in ways that Haqqani is not.

 

Then, when Haqqani shot Aayan (instead of Carrie dropping a bomb on him as collateral damage), she wanted to take her anger out on a strategically acceptable target (bomb Haqqani). Carrie is then a metaphor for how many view soldiers of various ranks.

I recall Bill Mahr saying shortly after the invasion of Iraq that it was as if a school yard bully (Taliban in Afghanistan) had beaten us (the U.S.) up, so we went to the bully's cousin (Iraq) around the corner and beat him up. It was on a late night talk show.

I hadn't heard that Mahr quote but it's certainly applicable and interesting -- I'd say that point of view is most epitomized in Lockhart's character, who's certainly got that Bush Era vibe. I liked Martha's complete frustration with Lockhart just walking all over four years of diplomatic efforts in a 5-minute period.

Speaking of which: one thing that would be cool would be if Martha were the one to actually figure out that her husband has been compromised. The conversation in this episode definitely showed some confusion and puzzlement in her at Dennis's sudden "I don't want to leave!" turnaround.

[LotusFlower]

. Fara's mistake is less a proximate cause than Boyd's luck; Boyd got lucky but he's been lucky for a while. His wife suspects nothing, has not suspected anything even since the days him and Sandy were trading secrets for intel. Fara is just a convenience, the main cause is the mole, Boyd.

I think the two are apples and oranges. Boyd's actions are treasonous, Fara just fucked up at her job. She might get reprimanded, or suffer a career setback (if it even gets traced back to her), but she's not going to jail over it.

 

But the game isn't over yet, there's still time on the clock. Fara's fumble might turn out not to be that decisive, so let's not crucify her on the phone ins before the game has finished.

Regardless of what the writers bring us in future episodes, Carrie's plan was on target to take out Haqqani and three or four more terrorists high up on the CIA hit list. All in one place! You don't get opportunities like that every day. I don't know if "decisive" is the right word, but it certainly hurt. And even if she does something heroic (score a TD?!), there's no erasing that fumble from the scorecard.

[shapeshifter]

Fara's fumble reminds me of the careless work that a lot of (but not all) college students do in their campus jobs, but Fara is not an intern; maybe it was just supposed to show her heart isn't in it anymore, just like the college students who do sloppy work don't really care about the job. Fara seems headed for a crossroads where she will have to decide if she wants to continue working with Carrie and the CIA or not.

I don't recall, but wasn't Fara working for some other entity when she got recruited?

Edited November 14, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Boundary]

 

That said, I disagree with your assertion that "Fara's mistake is less a proximate cause than Boyd's luck".  Boyd wasn't lucky.  Fara was distracted, she wasn't on her game, she was followed, she failed to notice that the pictures were taken, even though there were clues all over the place.  She failed to tell her driver to wait outside and be on the lookout.  She failed to spot a trail.  That's all on her. Had she noticed the pictures were taken and run out the door right then, she might have seen Boyd walking away and perhaps been able to stop him.  Had she told her driver to wait for her, Boyd might have not been able to enter the house and steal the pictures.  Boyd's luck had nothing to do with it.

 

Boyd is lucky because he's a lousy spy whom things seem to be going his way a little bit too conveniently. Carrie doesn't change her locks or practice counter measures like Quinn (at least he used to). Boyd isn't even in intelligence, yet seems to be able to saunter into areas I'd assume should be guarded and restricted. His wife leaves documents lying around for him to take a peak (she might as well chat to him about all those secrets. Fara doesn't get suspicious when followed into the safe house, (if she had a driver, he's also a lousy lookout). On and on. This amateur spy who isn't even that good at it is managing to pull wool over the eyes of seasoned pros just because he's lucky. Or the script calls for it.

 

Regardless of what the writers bring us in future episodes, Carrie's plan was on target to take out Haqqani and three or four more terrorists high up on the CIA hit list. All in one place! You don't get opportunities like that every day. I don't know if "decisive" is the right word, but it certainly hurt. And even if she does something heroic (score a TD?!), there's no erasing that fumble from the scorecard.

 

Aayan was always a dead man walking the moment his friend uploaded that video and brought him to the attention of the world, Carrie most of all. He also was a dead man walking the moment he decided to participate in his uncle's deception. Then he trusted Carrie. At the end of the day, either Carrie or Haqqani was going to shoot him.

 

Fara's heroics will certainly take care of the mistake. Does it erase it? No but it would put her in a net gain position. That's how dramas work. Characters don't start by being heroic, that's what the third act is there for. Most of us in real life wouldn't make it through the writing process, let alone the editing room, as characters on tv because we don't experience lows and highs like they do. Most of us aren't brilliant inventors/scientists/geniuses etc. We are just competent people at our jobs and don't fuck up as often to spectacular levels. In a drama we'd be monotonous. That's why I like Carrie, Fara, Quinn and even Saul, an experienced spymaster who fell for a juvenile trick at the airport because the writers had to keep the character on the show.

[LotusFlower]

Fara's heroics will certainly take care of the mistake. Does it erase it? No but it would put her in a net gain position. That's how dramas work. Characters don't start by being heroic, that's what the third act is there for.

Ok, I get it, you're a Fara fan. But why don't we wait on throwing her a parade until she saves the day. I summised upthread that the writers will probably give her a chance at redemption, but not every supporting character gets that "third act" treatment. I think that's a given only with Carrie as the star of the show.

[Boundary]

Ok, I get it, you're a Fara fan. But why don't we wait on throwing her a parade until she saves the day. I summised upthread that the writers will probably give her a chance at redemption, but not every supporting character gets that "third act" treatment. I think that's a given only with Carrie as the star of the show.

 

I am not a Fara fan, I'm a fan of the show. I just thought the criticism directed at her was disproportionate. Nazanin is not the star of the show but she's a regular cast member, whose character has an arc, just like Quinn and Saul. I've mentioned them too but you seem to reply only to my Fara comments. I'll be happy if they give Max an arc or more to do. I'm not vested in any one character.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Boundary

[LotusFlower]

I am not a Fara fan, I'm a fan of the show. I just thought the criticism directed at her was disproportionate.

The criticism was directed at Fara in this episode because of the events that unfolded in this episode. A pretty major event that resulted due to Fara's screw up at the safe house. If Max screwed up, we'd be talking about him. We're free to disagree on the size and scope of her blunder, but I was just saying it's premature to refer to her heroics as fact when that's merely speculative on your part. That's all.

[Boundary]

The criticism was directed at Fara in this episode because of the events that unfolded in this episode. A pretty major event that resulted due to Fara's screw up at the safe house. If Max screwed up, we'd be talking about him. We're free to disagree on the size and scope of her blunder, but I was just saying it's premature to refer to her heroics as fact when that's merely speculative on your part. That's all.

 

 

Some criticism is warranted I know that, hence my use of the word disproportionate. However, like me and a few people have argued, basically, the intelligence that was  compromised at the safe house was out of date. It was redundant. Let me explain. Did Fara's mistake lead to Aayan's death? No, it swapped Haqqani's bullet for Carrie's drone. Did Fara screw up the mission? No, because Saul (who effectively prevented Haqqani from being blown up) was kidnapped before even Aayan set off from Islamabad. So Saul screwed up that mission. Did Fara compromise the location of the safe house? Yes but it didn't matter anymore, it wasn't being used. All of the intelligence was redundant. What she did wrong was not to clock in on an active mole when she had a chance. But so did Carrie, who didn't change her locks or realise her meds had been tampered; so did the ambassador, who apparently left documents unsecured from her husband; so did Quinn, who didn't follow his suspicions when Boyd became too nosey about Carrie. I could go on. Most characters are culpable of enabling Boyd to spy in one way or another. These are the points I've been making all along. Of course I'm speculating that Fara will make up for her mistake, but I think it was such a small part of the point I was trying to put across. I'm sorry if I came off as discourteous, I really thought other characters weren't getting the analysis they deserved that was coming in Fara's way.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Boundary

[LotusFlower]

Did Fara's mistake lead to Aayan's death? No, it swapped Haqqani's bullet for Carrie's drone. Did Fara screw up the mission? No, because Saul (who effectively prevented Haqqani from being blown up) was kidnapped before even Aayan set off from Islamabad. So Saul screwed up that mission. Did Fara compromise the location of the safe house? Yes but it didn't matter anymore, it wasn't being used. All of the intelligence was redundant..

I think you're overlooking the fact that Haqqani only learned that the CIA knew he was still alive, and meeting up with Aayan and giving up his whereabouts, because of only one reason - the intel (pictures and itinerary) swiped at the safe house. Boyd => Tasneen => Haqqani. So I'm not sure how that can be called redundant. And yes, Saul was kidnapped beforehand, but they were likely going to use him for some sort of prisoner swap. The plan to use him as a shield from the drone strike was a last-minute change due to the info. gleamed from the safe house.

And you're not being discourteous in the slightest. Just different opinions and reasoning.

[Boundary]

But by kidnapping Saul, Haqqani already outed himself. If it was for a prisoner swap, then whoever was dealing with him would know he's alive. By kidnapping Saul and acting aggressively, Haqqani must have known his ruse was at an end. That's why it didn't matter if he knew CIA were onto him or not, he had already moved on to his next phase.

[stillshimpy]

But by kidnapping Saul, Haqqani already outed himself. If it was for a prisoner swap, then whoever was dealing with him would know he's alive.

 

No, actually he didn't out himself by kidnapping Saul.  We saw all kinds of known associates of Haqqani's in that meet up with Aayan.  He'd have a second in command who could negotiate for a prisoner release.  Taking Saul -- although we know it was initiated by Haqqani -- could have been the move of any anti-US group within Pakistan.  We just happen to know it was at Haqqani's orders.  

 

If he didn't want Saul to know he was alive, all he'd have to do is have any of the half dozen cold blooded Lts with the big ass guns that we saw handle him.  

 

Having Saul taken could easily be a Taliban or an Al Qaeda move from the standpoint of the CIA, if they had believed Haqqani was dead.  We just know that they found out he was still alive prior to that, but Haqqani didn't know that and he could have just had one of his charming associates handle Saul and any prisoner exchange. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[paramitch]

Boundary: Did Fara's mistake lead to Aayan's death? No, it swapped Haqqani's bullet for Carrie's drone. Did Fara screw up the mission? No, because Saul (who effectively prevented Haqqani from being blown up) was kidnapped before even Aayan set off from Islamabad. So Saul screwed up that mission. Did Fara compromise the location of the safe house? Yes but it didn't matter anymore, it wasn't being used. All of the intelligence was redundant

 

 

But this reasoning doesn't work because you don't include the single biggest direct outcome at Fara's hands: Not Aayan's death, but Haqqani's survival. Fara's negligence was invaluable new intel that was not redundant in the slightest but in fact gave them their most powerful tool to date -- the knowledge that Aayan had been compromised and was working directly with the CIA, and which further had conspired to put Aayan in Haqqani's presence.

 

In the face of this new knowledge, Haqqani only then took the action of bringing Saul along to both protect himself, remove Aayan as a flawed pawn, and flaunt the CIA's failure in their faces. He even basically said as much in his words to Aayan before shooting him. 

 

Without Fara's actions at the safe house, Haqqani, based on his previous interactions and meetings with Aayan, would have simply shown up for his nephew and been taken out of the equation, along with at least a few top lieutenants.

 

I don't hate Fara, but yes, I do think her failure at the safe house was a huge one.

[meep.meep]

So, if Tazneen is the one running the plot, she's managed to remove two heads of station in Islamabad. Who does she want in that position? The ambassador wanted Quin.

[Pallas]

Who does she want in that position?

 

Brody.  Chris Brody.

 

But that's a great point.  Maybe Tazneen's goal isn't as direct as ousting one head of station for another.  Sandy she seems to have ordered mauled because he was probably preparing to denounce his duplicitous source: Tazneen herself, perhaps?  We don't yet know what she had in mind for screwed-with Carrie, The Drone Queen.  Maybe just more upheaval within the Islamabad station, coupled with the former CIA Director's being taken hostage, and the negotiations for his release.

 

Perhaps all this pandemonium (as the late Agent Van Alden would say) is cover for some huge strike. The opposite technique that the late Nazir employed after his death, when his proxies caught the CIA napping, and pulled off the strike on Langley. This time, the adversary may be hoping to goose the CIA into a convulsion, which will compromise their vigilance.  

[Superpole2000]

I give it an F-. Crazy Carrie feels like a rerun. More importantly, it is frustrating to watch, and it sabotages (or at least interrupts) an otherwise well-conceived season. Just get her healthy again, and let's get on with the show. The writers are good enough to write an interesting spy show without always falling back on the Crazy Carrie crap.

 

Don't even get me started on Brody appearing. Move forward, please!

[John Potts]

So I guess we have to have this Season's "Carrie goes crazy" episode so we can get the "Carrie gets fired" episode next week. The idea that it's not common knowledge (at least among the CIA folk) that Carrie is unstable is quite frankly ridiculous - I can get that it might not be known by ISI, but as they say "Three can keep a secret... if two of them are dead" so it should basically be treated as if everyone knows. I also don't get how Senator Lockhart can be such a blunt instrument - sure, he's a hardliner who might say "Cut the bullshit" when the Pakistanis say they are looking into Saul's kidnapping, but I really doubt any senior politician would immediately reach for the "We'll cut your aid!" button immediately, which is kind of the nuclear option (well, short of actually nuking them!).

 

shapeshifter Saul being chained a few feet away from Haqqani having noisy reunion sex with his wife has to be torture.

 

I would have thought that was a really bad idea to keep a guy you (probably) intend to torture & kill ten feet away when you're ....rather inattentive. I know he was handcuffed, but he could easily have slipped his bonds. If only he had twenty sons who could have watched over Saul...

 

Haleth Speaking of that, why isn't anyone continuing to investigate where Sandy got all the intel he traded with the Pakistanis?

 

Because that was five weeks ago - who remembers Sandy now!?

 

paramitch one thing that would be cool would be if Martha were the one to actually figure out that her husband has been compromised.

 

That would be cool. He seems to be the most competent spy (admittedly, Plot Armour helps him) of any of them yet he's (presumably) completely untrained.

Edited November 25, 2014 by John Potts