S05.E05: Self Help

[Trek]

Except that Jenner was flat out of time. That clock on the wall was counting down to the destruction of the CDC. And Rick had more or less confirmed that the situation outside was bordering on hopeless, that "it was only a matter of time" before everyone was dead. Opting out wasn't an irrational decision, given the circumstances.

Yep, and he had already previously revealed to Rick that he had wanted to kill himself since the moment his wife died but his wife made him promise to continue working for as long as he could. Regardless of whether he knows anyone (or whether it is reasonable to assume that he even could know of everyone) that could potentially find the cure or not sometime in the future, with the generators running dry and self-destruct assured, his time was up. As far as he was concerned, he had kept that promise to the letter, struggling around on the outside waiting for others to find a cure wasn’t part of the deal.

[maczero]

I still hold that while Eugene isn't a scientist that they still might go to DC. No, he can't create a cure and I don't think our heroes would think he could create a cure. But they might think his idea to go to DC is still a smart one. If there is anyone left who could fix things he or she would be there. And now they've tasted hope, it would be doubly hard to go back to knowing there is nothing to hope for.

I live in DC and I don't see it turning into some fortress/last refuge for mankind.  I imagine during the first few days of the outbreak that government vip's would be evacuated.  The federal government itself would still function, it's just that it would be dispersed to different areas of the country.  As for finding someone who's working on the cure in DC, I imagine that could happen just about anywhere there's a large medical/scientific community.  However, I think these people would be moved to a secure location away from any major population centers.

 

Also, I just have a big problem going off into the unknown during an apocalypse.  Let's say they get to DC and it's just as bad or even worse than Atlanta?  A better idea is to get some intel before you head off.  Look for a HAM radio and see if anyone's broadcasting.  If they are, then still consider the message before you go running off.  Open invites to some safe haven sound too good to be true (Terminus anyone).  However I imagine that there would be a network of amateur radio operators sharing valuable info.

 

I remember on 9/11 one of the women on the sidewalk called to a NY cop "Should we be running?" and he yelled "Lady if I'M running you oughta be!!"

Hilarious!

 

 

So Abraham comes back and kills the rapists, and although his wife has seen walkers wandering around for enough time that they have to go out to get supplies, and she sees how scared of the walkers the men are, but she still decides to flee in the night with the kids.  I can only think she's gone insane at that point, but you'd think she'd grab the kids and try to run right away if that were the case.  Instead, she waits for him to fall asleep and takes herself and her kids out to die.

If you're assuming that she's scared of Abe, then what good is running away from him while he's fully awake?  She couldn't outrun walkers so why would you think sprinting away with her kids in tow would work.  I

[Boofish]

 

And on a completely different note, why were the streets of the 'almost untouched' town utterly covered in cardboard?

My guess would be people stayed there more or less until supplies ran out. You want to make sure you cover walls and windows so you can't be seen.That's another reason the ZA will never truly be over. You have to be more afraid of people than you are of zombies. People didn't pull together and try and help each other. The worse things got, the worse people behaved. Now it's just a few good people who really just want to survive and be left alone, groups that take, kill, rape and steal and the zombies

 

I know I laugh at Father Pee Pants and Super Mullet but I would be pretty much useless to any group. I would have to rely on my good looks (subjective) wit and charm. I'm Super Mullet. I almost broke my foot once running from a lizard. Scared of everything except cows, horses and dogs. I would definitely be a cross between Beth (because I can run and babysit) Father Pee Pants (afraid of my own shadow) and Eugene (smart enough to hope my knowledge would make me an asset) I also workout 6 days a week so I'm definitely no weakling; I could carry supplies

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

Never mind the sound-I either lip read, or have my neighbor pounding on the wall. Can't hear, can't see. Also, AMC is a pay channel-Why so many fucking commercials?

AMC like all basic cable channels relies on advertising. The only pay channels are premium cable channels like HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, STARZ, etc. Those channels rely on subscribers therefore they don't run commercials.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[NoWillToResist]

 

I want to know how that bus crashed the way it did, flew into the air and landed on its side and no one had so much as a broken finger. Abe's flat top wasn't even mildly mussed.

 

Hell, I'd like to know exactly what happened to the bus. At first, I thought Abe had hit a car and I was all "the fuck? It was a straight piece of road...how could you not see a car in your way??" Eugene says he put glass in the gas tank, but I don't see how that could have resulted in the bus heaving up and onto its side. My hubby says he thought a tire blew out because he thought he heard a 'pop' before it all went to hell.

 

I wasn't surprised that there weren't really any big injuries since the bus did only go onto its side. It didn't ROLL, unless I'm misremembering.

 

I was, however, impressed that none of the windows appeared to have shattered.

 

I confess I was expecting Tara to be walker chow when she stood in the bus with her back to the open end of it and spoke to Eugene for roughly four hours before paying attention to her surroundings.

 

 

I know I laugh at Father Pee Pants and Super Mullet but I would be pretty much useless to any group.

 

Well, if you are a woman, you can rest easy knowing that there are apparently TONS of groups of survivors out there who will keep you alive so that they can enjoy a spot of rape when then mood strikes them...no woman is useless in the ZA for those animals.

Edited November 11, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Boofish]

 

I know I laugh at Father Pee Pants and Super Mullet but I would be pretty much useless to any group.

 

 

Well, if you are a woman, you can rest easy knowing that there are apparently TONS of groups of survivors out there who will keep you alive so that they can enjoy a spot of rape when then mood strikes them...no woman is useless in the ZA for those animals.

 

YIKES! I am. Guess I would go the way Mrs. Ginger Spice because the odds of running into a Team Grimes situation is pretty slim. Although the leaders of Woodbury were all A Clockwork Orange like, it didn't seem to be any rape or molestation situations (until what happened to poor Maggie). I guess I could give them credit for that

[Andromeda]

I had issues with seeing details, too. When the group was worrying over the scene far ahead, I thought the smell was dead cow, since the camera had panned over what looked like a feed lot. I had to rewind, get up and stand in front of my 58-inch plasma before I saw the walkers on the road ahead, and in the lot on both sides of the road. The walkers didn't look that dense to me, the firetruck could have powered through them. Seriously, a bunch of slow-moving zombies are going to somehow overpower a firetruck? Er...
 

She took herself and her kids away from the one person who fought tooth and nail to protect them, only to get herself/kids slaughtered, makes no sense to me at all.

I didn't get Abe's wife's motivation at ALL, if the background told in TTD is true. She and her daughter were hardly going to be safer out on the street, and Abe had just proven he'd kill to protect them all. Seriously do not get it. So, he becomes a maniac and murders human monsters in cold blood. I'd be down with that in such a circumstance. Maybe it scared the kids to see it, but better that than get, you know, eaten.

 

Could be it didn't make sense to the writers, either, which is why they didn't show it. My first thought was Abe went murderously ballistic fighting over cans of food. I could see that freaking out his wife and kids. "Those are MY peas, I saw them FIRST!" Kind of like Black Friday, but deadlier.

 

But now I'm done with Abraham. Couldn't care less about him. I'm not sure why, but his story left me cold. Maybe because we started in the middle with him. I found Eugene kind of interesting, but creepy (which is interesting in its way). If I had to choose one to keep, it'd be Eugene (for story purposes, not survival in a ZA!).

Edited November 11, 2014 by Andromeda

[Trek]

if his fellow scientists the world's most brilliant epidemiologists and virologist's had any hope, they would not have committed suicide.

You are very generous in the company that you think Jenner keeps, heh. I think a major source of the differing views of how big of an issue the CDC visit is in terms of its impact on the storyline and Eugene’s arc is rooted in large part in how much stock each of us place on the CDC (and by extension Jenner’s testimony) IRL and then projecting our skew onto the characters in TWD. I think it is fair to say that I have far less faith in them being the final word with regards to cures than many posters.

 

Jenner does indeed say that the fellow scientists that ATL CDC was in contact with – which I assume would be the CDC’s other offices and their foreign counterparts (plus Homeland Security, the NSA and some form of ZA joint task force) - ran off or committed suicide. However, most of “the world's most brilliant epidemiologists and virologist's” do not, in fact, work for the CDC and certainly not for the WHO. (Universities/research foundations have massive grants while private Pharma and Biotech give massive salaries in comparison to the CDC).  As the name implies, the CDC’s specialty is prevention and control as in identifying, immunizing and containment via instituting quarantine protocols and the like. Historically, the actual cures and vaccines themselves have been found by others and treatment is usually conducted by doctors.

 

While we would like to hope that if a huge crisis like the ZA did occur, everyone would be pulling together and sharing research, I think the actuality would be decent into a huge clusterfuq within days and Jenner would have no clue, even before coms went down, as to the status of Oxford, Glaxo, John Hopkins, Heidelburg, Mitsubishi-Tanabe etc. – and I would not assume they all committed suicide too.  At least that would be my assessment had I been there listening to Jenner.  What CDB’s in-character assessment would have been would have ranged I think, from Shane’s “he's full of shit” to Andrea’s “he knows everything there is know.”

[queenanne]

They looked like trees to me when I saw it on tv. After looking at the screengrab, they still look like trees, except the ones on the road.

 

They can't just assume that in the middle of things we will figure out what the hell we're supposed to be looking at from the distance. Close ups, people!

 

 

Only a guess, but I think it might have indeed been a cattle stockyard, which earlier in the apocalypse probably would have attracted walkers. I'm not sure why the walkers would have stayed there once all of the cattle were gone, though. After all, if the walkers were able to find a way into the stockyard, they should have been able to find the way back out.

 

That's what I thought too.  I understood the people on the road and I can kind of understand the people to the side, but I thought they were stanchions, or grape arbors, or pegs.  In fact, considering the cost of 100-300 extra extras, they might have been pegs in a diorama.

[TexasChic]

 

Well, if you are a woman, you can rest easy knowing that there are apparently TONS of groups of survivors out there who will keep you alive so that they can enjoy a spot of rape when then mood strikes them...no woman is useless in the ZA for those animals.

I'm surprised no one has done what I would be sure to do in their position, which would be to disguise myself as a guy. 

[Ohwell]

Unless you're really tall, the rapists would catch on to the disguise.  Then you'd really be in deep shit, unfortunately.  I'm 5'2" so the best I could hope for would be a "kind" rapist who would do anything to protect me from the other rapists.

[paigow]

They looked like trees to me when I saw it on tv. After looking at the screengrab, they still look like trees, except the ones on the road.

 

They can't just assume that in the middle of things we will figure out what the hell we're supposed to be looking at from the distance. Close ups, people!

If the zombies keep walking in circles, then the stockyard must have been designed by Temple Grandin

[Andromeda]

I don't care about Eugene. I find it impossible to believe that NONE of the people he encountered saw through his complete bull. Judith was rolling her eyes at Eugene.  And if Abraham believed in him all this time then he was as stupid as his stupid dead wife.

I know. I'm not a scientist, but nothing he said made any sense in regard to a cure. It was all gibberish, sometimes sounding like something vaguely medical, sometimes like a weapon. I'd have kept at him until I got details, because he wasn't giving any. I'd especially want to know why some guy coming from Houston had the answer, and how he came up with it, and when, and what happened to the other scientists he was with who also were working on the cure (or was he claiming to come up with the answer all by himself?). Abraham is just that dumb (and desperate, I suppose, but mostly dumb.)

 

I'm beginning to think that Maggie has got a stash of something tucked away. Because she's walking around with this moony grin on her face and it's not making any sense.

What about that Samson story? What was the point of that, to explain that Samson had Asperger's, too, and also had communication issues?

 

If the zombies keep walking in circles, then the stockyard must have been designed by Temple Grandin

I thought of Temple Grandin, too!! Great little HBO movie. Edited November 11, 2014 by Andromeda

[Nashville]

I'm surprised no one has done what I would be sure to do in their position, which would be to disguise myself as a guy. 

 

Carl might successfully argue such a disguise would be no protection whatsoever.  :)

[Raven1707]

I'm not sure this will interest anyone but me, but I've been tracking the ratings over the past 5 weeks:

 

10-12-14 “No Sanctuary” 17.3 million
10-19-14 “Strangers” 15.143 million
10-26-14 “Four Walls and a Roof” 13.801 million
11-02-14 “Slabtown” 14.518 million
11-09-14 “Self Help” 13.534 million

[Casually Observant]

Is it just me or my television set? The scenes at night are SO hard to see. Even with all the lights off in the room. I wish there was a little back lighting going on, like moonlight.

 

 

I'm not sure if it was just my TV or what, but during the flashback scenes Abraham's hair did not seem so RED, just kinda brownish, light reddish. When Eugene said "I have an important mission" and the scene cut back to Abraham:suddenly his hair was BRIGHT RED. Then when Abraham learned Eugene did not have the cure, his hair didn't seem so bright. Maybe I just have a cheap TV?

Actually, what you saw was the same as what I saw, but I thought it was to make it clear which scenes were flashbacks (sepia toned?) and which were current. I didn't notice that Abrahams hair looked faded after Eugene fessed up in current times, though.

 

 

It's not you OR your TV, it's the broadcast.

This mood-lighting shit is getting on my last fucking nerve.  Just so you know.

 

 

I think it was the worst it's ever been tonight. I've never complained about it before, but tonight I kept telling my husband - "I can't see. What's going on?"

Hey guys, we'd been having the same problem with our 56" TV picture suddenly seeming too washed out or lacking in crispness or definition. Some scenes were just impossible to make out. We didn't realize how bad it had gotten until we realized we couldn't even read some of the signs or words in a scene. Then, it occurred to us to consider putting a new bulb in the TV. We found many new bulb choices online and watched a YouTube video on how to install it in our type of TV, which seemed easy enough. We ordered the new bulb, installed it and our picture is incredible now, like a brand-new TV. We have no trouble seeing the dark scenes or reading any written words. Maybe this is what some of you guys need.

[poppy-]

I don't think Eugene's revelation was really supposed to be a surprise.  They've had two weeks now of increasingly improbably explanations.  I do think it's credible that Abraham believed him, and that no one really wanted to topple that mountain.  But no one really seemed invested in Eugene's cure the way Abraham was. Except perhaps Maggie, at the end, but she is a bit dim.

[AngelaHunter]

They looked like trees to me when I saw it on tv. After looking at the screengrab, they still look like trees, except the ones on the road.

 

It's saying nothing good about the show when viewers have to guess what they're looking at in a rather pivotal scene.

 

I kind of thought it looked like it could maybe be animal pens filled with trapped zombies, in which case the group could continue down the road, but then there's what looks like zombies in the road, so it seems a little foolhardy for Flat Top to stand there screaming and attracting their attention.

 

It was also hard to understand why the bobby pins holding Eugenes ratty fall in place didn't come loose in the crash.

[Nashville]

 

 

Actually, what you saw was the same as what I saw, but I thought it was to make it clear which scenes were flashbacks (sepia toned?) and which were current. I didn't notice that Abrahams hair looked faded after Eugene fessed up in current times, though.

 

 

 

 

Hey guys, we'd been having the same problem with our 56" TV picture suddenly seeming too washed out or lacking in crispness or definition. Some scenes were just impossible to make out. We didn't realize how bad it had gotten until we realized we couldn't even read some of the signs or words in a scene. Then, it occurred to us to consider putting a new bulb in the TV. We found many new bulb choices online and watched a YouTube video on how to install it in our type of TV, which seemed easy enough. We ordered the new bulb, installed it and our picture is incredible now, like a brand-new TV. We have no trouble seeing the dark scenes or reading any written words. Maybe this is what some of you guys need.

 

I might think so, if it were a problem with other broadcasts, but it's not.  Solely TWD.

[blackwing]

I too want to thank everyone for explaining exactly what happened in Abraham's flashbacks.  Much less confusing.  What is the significance of him ripping off his dog tags when he finds his dead family?  Is it just an expression of anguish?  I really couldn't give two shits about Abraham.  Hope we don't have to be stuck with this character all season.  In last week's preview, we saw the end clip of him sinking to his knees after killing Eugene.  I had actually held out hope that he accidentally got shot by one of his group.  Alas.

 

In one scene (can't remember if it was flashback or not), we saw a darkened room and a window.  I think Glenn was talking to someone at that window.  Then they both leave.  Camera focuses on the window and stays there for a bit.  Then we see a human form go from right to left.  I can't at all figure out what that was supposed to be.  Was it a walker?  One of the group leaving the house?  What was the significance?

 

I can't believe they drank water from the toilet tank.  Even after they boil it.  What if someone had dropped one of those toilet cleaning bleach tablets in there?

 

Why can't they do like normal shows and show what is happening to each group, and just spread the story out over several weeks?  Hated the "solo Beth" episode last week, and really don't care for "the Abraham and Eugene show".  Next week looks like Daryl and Carol, prior to Carol being found by Dawn's group.  What about Rick?  Rick is supposed to be the main character, and seems like there will be three weeks where he doesn't even appear.

[Casually Observant]

I could not see the wall of walkers without squinting, and I have a big TV. I still call 'no way' on the stench of a few thousand more walkers breaking through the everyday funk.

 

 

I seriously couldn't tell what they looking at at first when they stopped in the road.  I don't know if I need new glasses or it really was too poorly shot for us to immediately understand that there was supposed to be a huge herd off in the distance because I wasn't sure until they told me. more and more.

 

 

THIS! They kept talking and talking and I couldn't figure out what the hell they were seeing or what danger they were talking about. It's like last week with Beth and the doctor id: show a damn close up of the id, damn it. I didn't catch what the hell that beat was about until I read it here.

 

 

Ditto on both of these. As for the horde, I thought it was a bunch of dead cattle that had starved while left fenced in. Since when have they mentioned smelling a big group coming their way?

 

I also thought the stench was probably from dead livestock, although they probably would've been eaten before they starved.

Now that I have the bulb replaced in my big screen TV, (which I recommend to all of you that cannot see these scenes very well), I could see exactly what they were smelling. It appeared to be huge livestock corrals on both sides of the road that were full of milling and moaning walkers, along with a large group between the corrals spread across the whole road. I surmised that the walkers had gone in and slaughtered all the animals and all the decaying walkers (hundreds?) along with the rotting dead carcasses were the cause of the stench.

[Ottis]

The issue with not seeing what was ahead puzzles me. Iwas watching on a 40" TV and I could tell there were a bunch of slow-moving walkers up ahead. Maybe my brain was filling in details, but what else could it be in a ZA? Only so many in the road, but they were spread out, and would all start heading to the road as soon as they heard a noise. In a balky fire truck, not sure they could have made it through the mass of zombies.

 

Why can't they do like normal shows and show what is happening to each group, and just spread the story out over several weeks?  Hated the "solo Beth" episode last week, and really don't care for "the Abraham and Eugene show".

 

 

After a great beginning to this season, this show has become Lostified. Characters are important, but we don't need everyone's back story.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ottis

[klarsonovsky]

I was fine with this episode. If Abraham, Eugene, Rosita and Tara are going to be hanging out for a while, I was happy to get a better sense (finally!) of who they are. I was also fine with last week’s episode—I’ve been insanely curious about what happened to Beth. I didn’t think the explanation was terribly coherent, but it was no LESS coherent than “How the Terminus crew became cannibals”. I actually kind of like this format of discrete stories. Sure, I miss some of my favourites, but I feel like it gives us better STORIES, which have always interested me more than the action. (Don’t throw sharp objects, please, but: I actually LOVED season 2!) When the group is all together, so many characters fade into the background. If Rick is your favourite character that may not bother you. But I personally am interested in seeing how all the different personality types deal with this new reality.

 

- Like others who have not read the comics, I was not aware of what had happened to Abe’s family prior, but I believe they were correct to not state what if anything happened to cause Abe to kill those three people.  If they’d followed the comics, the main reaction would be “he protects them from rapists and they run away? If I was the kid I’d be right there stomping the guy’s ribs in while Abe was bashing with the can. What idiots, they deserved to die within 50 yards.” Instead, implying that it was his display of violence that had driven them to their deaths, kept the focus on Abe’s trauma/guilt when he discovered the bodies.

I think the important part of the plot wasn't why Abraham killed those dudes, but that he did it at all, and his wife and children were traumatized and terrified by him.

I agree. The rape story might have factored in the comics and into the motivation of Michael Cudlitz as Abraham, but it was NOT a part of this story. Viewers can choose to believe that his family was attacked, or that the men Abe killed were threatening them, or that they were simply raiding supplies and Abe saw that as a potential threat. All we know is that Abraham believed he was acting to protect his family, and his family found his capacity for violence to be just as threatening as whatever else the Zombie Apocalypse had to offer.

 

But I give the MVP award to Rosita. She isn't just Abe's chick, she is an intelligent, thinking human being who is caring but not a push over. She stands by her man, because he is her man, but she does NOT follow him blindly and she will NOT follow him into hell. I found the scene when Abe was going off, and it ended with the two of them facing each other - him looking like a bull about to charge, and her staring the bull down with her hand on her gun, to be fascinating. She may love him but she will stop him if she must.

 

This, submitted in triplicate.  Rosita stands BY her man - as in BESIDE him, as an equal - NOT behind him.

 

I did like Rosita in this episode, but the scene that sticks with me isn’t this final one—it’s the previous scene where she suggested they wait a day or so before continuing on. He didn’t respectfully persuade her that it was better to continue—be lashed out and pretty much called her a baby and a coward for even considering a delay. And she immediately caved and toed the party line when Maggie made the same suggestion. What got me was the creepy, smug way he said, “you heard the lady”—like his satisfaction came as much from imposing his will on Rosita as from just getting his way. It actually made me rethink the earlier scenes with his family. I’m not saying Abe was an abuser—just that the show didn’t do anything to make me think he wasn’t.

 

[SoSueMe]

That mess tacked onto the back of Eugene's head is one of the worst TV wigs I've ever seen. The thing is its own walking dead.

 

The Abraham-family backstory was badly done because of the jumpy editing; all I got was that they were scared, Abraham killed a bunch of people, and his family got eaten.

Not for nothing, but when Josh McDermitt (Eugene) was on the Talking Dead, it looked like he still had a modified mullet going. Could it be his real hair?

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

 

Not for nothing, but when Josh McDermitt (Eugene) was on the Talking Dead, it looked like he still had a modified mullet going. Could it be his real hair?

They dye his natural lighter and shorter hair and then add in mullet extensions. He is then stuck with it for the entirety of filming. I think he just combed it differently for Talking Dead and tried to make it look a little spiffier

[klarsonovsky]

I've taken this to TWD Women: Who's the Bigger Threat - Walkers or Writers?.

 

OMG I am going to immediately visit that thread!

 

Trek touched on this upthread, but I'd already written this so:

Now that Eugene has blown his own cover the point may be moot, but I just want to respond to the many posters who keep referencing season 1’s visit to the CDC as a reason that our heroes should know Eugene is lying, and that the writers are ignoring that fact, because the notion that Jenner, as the only surviving staff member at CDC, would be privy to the kind of “classified” information Eugene’s been claiming is absolutely ludicrous.

 

The CDC is a publicly-funded research facility staffed by thousands of civilian scientists and government bureaucrats, subject to massive oversight and transparency regulations.  The hypothetical lab Eugene is talking about -- which may or may not be Ft Detrick, as someone (Nashville?) already mentioned--is a top-secret military facility devoted to developing biological weapons and the means to disseminate them (and thus likely circumventing a number of international laws). Those are 2 very different things.

 

While there might be a very small number of top-level CDC administrators with a security clearance high enough to know about Eugene’s lab (if it exists), they would not be likely to include scientists such as Jenner and his wife. The only reason anyone at CDC would have that kind of clearance would be to ensure that the results of any relevant research were made available to the “top secret lab” as quickly as possible (ie long before the protocols could be met to legitimately publish scientific findings), and possibly to direct/encourage research in the directions required by the “top secret” people—and both of those things would be considered entirely unethical and possibly illegal without the protection of some type of wartime/anti-terrorist military sanction. This is not something that even the most senior civilian scientist at CDC would be expected to have.

 

 

And I also want to say—the herd blocking the road was nowhere close to the number shown that kept Michonne, Daryl & co from the veterinary college. Many viewers saw a cattle yard, but my impression was that most appeared to be behind the walls of gated communities on either side of the road. It can’t be said often enough—cover yourselves in zombie guts! That should get you halfway through at least and then just start fighting- it really didn’t look like the number of walkers actually in the road was more than they could handle.

Edited November 11, 2014 by klarsonovsky

[AngelaHunter]

In one scene (can't remember if it was flashback or not), we saw a darkened room and a window.  I think Glenn was talking to someone at that window.  Then they both leave.  Camera focuses on the window and stays there for a bit.  Then we see a human form go from right to left.  I can't at all figure out what that was supposed to be.  Was it a walker?  One of the group leaving the house?  What was the significance?

 

Thank you. When that scene started, I had no idea where we were, what anyone was  doing or even who anyone was. It was very frustrating. It was only when I saw them pushing around booksheves that I thought, "Must be a library", but I had no memory of them arriving there.

[GreyBunny]

OMG I am going to immediately visit that thread!

 

Trek touched on this upthread, but I'd already written this so:

Now that Eugene has blown his own cover the point may be moot, but I just want to respond to the many posters who keep referencing season 1’s visit to the CDC as a reason that our heroes should know Eugene is lying, and that the writers are ignoring that fact, because the notion that Jenner, as the only surviving staff member at CDC, would be privy to the kind of “classified” information Eugene’s been claiming is absolutely ludicrous.

 

The CDC is a publicly-funded research facility staffed by thousands of civilian scientists and government bureaucrats, subject to massive oversight and transparency regulations.  The hypothetical lab Eugene is talking about -- which may or may not be Ft Detrick, as someone (Nashville?) already mentioned--is a top-secret military facility devoted to developing biological weapons and the means to disseminate them (and thus likely circumventing a number of international laws). Those are 2 very different things.

 

While there might be a very small number of top-level CDC administrators with a security clearance high enough to know about Eugene’s lab (if it exists), they would not be likely to include scientists such as Jenner and his wife. The only reason anyone at CDC would have that kind of clearance would be to ensure that the results of any relevant research were made available to the “top secret lab” as quickly as possible (ie long before the protocols could be met to legitimately publish scientific findings), and possibly to direct/encourage research in the directions required by the “top secret” people—and both of those things would be considered entirely unethical and possibly illegal without the protection of some type of wartime/anti-terrorist military sanction. This is not something that even the most senior civilian scientist at CDC would be expected to have.

 

When everything fell apart, the alleged high security hideout in DC should have said "fuck it" to things being classified, as there is no longer any reason to withhold information, and immediately gotten the information out to the CDC, the Pasteur Institute, and every other major infectious disease research facility on earth so they would at least know what they were dealing with and what was needed to cure it.  If DC wanted to keep mum about most things, at the very least DC could have said, "It's a virus, we're close to a cure."  That the CDC and the Pasteur Institute didn't have a clue and had to start from scratch to try to figure out what kind of pathogen they were dealing with is unconscionable if the alleged DC facility was still manned with anyone who could stop this. 

 

Jenner was low level but his wife wasn't and neither were other staff members.  They would have given him access to what they knew so he could keep going.  He also had access to the Pasteur Institute before they lost communication.  

Telling Eugene that they were at the CDC would have done one of two things:

1)  Even if DC was keeping secrets, it still would have sussed out that Eugene was full of crap.  Jenner knew it was a virus.  Ask Eugene what kind of pathogen was causing this and if he says "bacteria" or something other than a virus, it's clear he's lying.  If he said "virus," continue the line of questioning to see if what he said matched up with the things Jenner said and showed them.  It would have been highly improbable for Eugene to guess everything right.  If Eugene balks and says "it's classified" then tell him, "By default I don't believe you.  Goodbye."

 

2)  Exposed that DC is no longer functional (since they failed to communicate with the CDC) and whatever plan Eugene and his alleged co-workers had can no longer be implemented so the mission to DC is worthless, at least in terms of curing humanity. 

But anyway, when Eugene said this was part of the Human Genome Project, that was a huge freaking admission that he was lying through his teeth.

Edited November 12, 2014 by GreyBunny

[NoWillToResist]

 

I kind of thought it looked like it could maybe be animal pens filled with trapped zombies, in which case the group could continue down the road, but then there's what looks like zombies in the road, so it seems a little foolhardy for Flat Top to stand there screaming and attracting their attention.

 

I figured that the road had lots of zombies on it and it looks like animal corrals full of zombies on either side of the road. What I don't understand is how the zombies got into the pens. We have consistently been shown that fences flummox these zombies. Unless there's a gap or it gets knocked down, they don't get in. So, how are these zombies still penned in? They should, but virtue of trial and error, eventually find the break in the fence which allowed them to get in and thus lead the others out.

 

Also, since the smell of the zombies reached Abe and co., the zombies must have been upwind of them, so perhaps Abe's yelling could not have carried to them.

 

I forgot to mention how much I hate that Abe referred to Rosita as 'getting some ass' considering that his wife and child were raped. It seems a remarkably callous comment; one I would expect from someone who did not have such unfortunate familiarity with what happens when a man treats a female like a piece of meat...

[Raven1707]

 

But anyway, when Eugene said this was part of the Human Genome Project, that was a huge freaking admission that he was lying through his teeth.

 

If memory serves, Eugene said that he was part of a ten-member team working on the Human Genome Project, and in that capacity had met other "scientists" who had shared classified information with him.

[GreyBunny]

Here's the quote:

"I was part of a 10-person team at the human genome project that weaponized diseases to fight weaponized diseases. Pathogenic microorganisms with pathogenic microorganisms. Fire with fire. Interdepartmental drinks were had, relationships made, information shared. I am keenly aware of all the details behind failsafe delivery systems to kill every living person on this planet. I believe with a little tweaking on the terminals in D.C., we can flip the script. Take out every last dead one of 'em. Fire with fire."

[Pete Martell]

 

Why can't they do like normal shows and show what is happening to each group, and just spread the story out over several weeks?  Hated the "solo Beth" episode last week, and really don't care for "the Abraham and Eugene show".  Next week looks like Daryl and Carol, prior to Carol being found by Dawn's group.  What about Rick?  Rick is supposed to be the main character, and seems like there will be three weeks where he doesn't even appear.

 

The show seems to have moved more and more away from that format starting with season 3. I think Gimple must have been upset by how little character development was in the first few seasons, and by much the group just sat around taking up space in season 3, so he tried the new format to build up characterization.

 

It's a mixed bag, because I don't think these characters could carry an entire episode, yet I would not want to watch 2-3 weeks of random scenes of them trying to get to DC. 

 

Overall I think the current format allows for more variety and character growth, and some episodes work better with just one story. With that said, I still want group things too, and I'm disappointed when we see so little of Michonne (or even Carl or Rick).

[PunkyMouse]

But anyway, when Eugene said this was part of the Human Genome Project, that was a huge freaking admission that he was lying through his teeth.

Exactly! That's the part that made no sense to me and what sent up red flags for me.

[Raven1707]

 

Here's the quote:

 

Thanks, I stand corrected.

 

ETA: I've transcribed quite a few sections of dialogue from the show, but that wasn't one of them...just not all that interested in Eugene.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Raven1707

[Ohwell]

I forgot to mention how much I hate that Abe referred to Rosita as 'getting some ass' considering that his wife and child were raped. It seems a remarkably callous comment; one I would expect from someone who did not have such unfortunate familiarity with what happens when a man treats a female like a piece of meat...

I was just about to comment on that.  Now I'm no pearl-clutcher by any means, and I realize that people living in the ZA can act in ways they wouldn't under normal circumstances, but I thought it was so brutish of him to say that.   After he said that it did make me wonder how he treated his wife.  He didn't have to tell Glenn anything; he could have just excused himself and no one would have known they were having sex (that is, except for creepy Eugene).

[Maverick]

Jenner knew it was a virus. 

 

 Jenner didn't know it wasn't a virus.  He told the group he didn't know what is was: viral, bacterial, fungal or something else.  Which annoyed me because he ran blood tests and declared everyone infected.  

[TexasChic]

Carl might successfully argue such a disguise would be no protection whatsoever.  :)

I stand by my Z.A. plan (which includes disguising myself as a guy and sleeping in trees like Katniss). While not total protection, I think it would provide enough to be worth the effort. It's all about not drawing attention to yourself. 

[kikismom]

I stand by my Z.A. plan (which includes disguising myself as a guy and sleeping in trees like Katniss). While not total protection, I think it would provide enough to be worth the effort. It's all about not drawing attention to yourself. 

You'll need one of these:    http://www.newtribe.com/TBhome.htm

[GreyBunny]

 Jenner didn't know it wasn't a virus.  He told the group he didn't know what is was: viral, bacterial, fungal or something else.  Which annoyed me because he ran blood tests and declared everyone infected.  

 

You're right.  The various show wikis and info sites are calling it a virus but the transcript says he didn't know, so scratch that line of questioning.  But there were other things Glenn and the others who were at the CDC could have grilled Eugene on.  Jenner also said that he'd been in the dark for almost a month, no one could communicate with him because everyone ran out of power.  If DC were still operational they would have tried to contact him long before then.

Edited November 12, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Milaxx]

So do you think Eugene is the bad guy for lying to save himself, or Abraham for getting others to follow blindly?

I think think that's a gray area. When I think bad guys, I think the Gov'nor, or Gareth, Dawn & those corrupt cops, or even those Claimers. I think Eugene just latched onto an idea to buy himself company & protection and the lie just got away from him. As far as Abraham is concerned he was a broken guy who needed hope and unfortunately that need made him susceptible to Eugene's lie. However they never intentionally harmed someone. In fact from the moment they met up with Glenn and later Rick, they always showed a willingness to help. They only resumed the "mission" once they knew they were safe. 

 

And see, to me, "I stopped them" tells me that nothing had happened YET. But apparently, the damage had already been done. I think "You're safe now. They won't touch either of you again" would have been clearer since it would clarify that bad shit had already happened and to more than one person.

 

Frankly, I'm still a little puzzled by the apparent events anyway. I mean, these men were his buddies/fellow survivors yet they just...up and raped their buddy's little girl and their buddy's wife? What the fuck? Who does that out of the blue?

 

I could have wrapped my brain around it if they'd been like the Claimers who busted in on their refuge and took advantage of a woman a her kids left alone, but these guys were part of their group? Whaaaat?

That's part of why pulling from the comics makes little sense. Things that might make for a great serial tale falls flat on screen. Especially if you leave half the tale untold.

Which brings me to:

I'm glad to see so  many mentioned this. I thought I was alone in not knowing what the hell was going on.

My impression was they were in a market looting or I guess gathering supplies at this point and Abe had to defend his family from a bunch of guys looting. Perhaps he was more mild mannered pre ZA and he wife was horrified at seeing him beat some to a bloody pulp like that. Yea, her actions are still stupid and the kids were a bit big to follow her blindly, but Id rather have continued with that impression than given a "in the comics..." answer.  My biggest complaint is the insistence on relying on the comics when we can't see it portrayed on the show. I'm sure they want to appease Kirkman, but it makes for stupid scenes like this that half the audience doesn't get.

[ghoulina]

My impression was they were in a market looting or I guess gathering supplies at this point and Abe had to defend his family from a bunch of guys looting. Perhaps he was more mild mannered pre ZA and he wife was horrified at seeing him beat some to a bloody pulp like that. Yea, her actions are still stupid and the kids were a bit big to follow her blindly, but Id rather have continued with that impression than given a "in the comics..." answer.  My biggest complaint is the insistence on relying on the comics when we can't see it portrayed on the show. I'm sure they want to appease Kirkman, but it makes for stupid scenes like this that half the audience doesn't get.

 

Yea, before watching TD, I had kind of gotten the impression that the guys he beat to death were just trying to steal from their "camp" or take it over, something like that. He might have gone a bit overboard in handling it, but I still wouldn't have left. No matter the story, I DID get the impression he was trying to protect his family. 

 

To be fair, when Cudlitz revealed the comic rape plot on TD, he did say something about this not being definitive in the show, and TPTB possibly going a different way at a later point. I don't remember it word for word, but something like a "We reserve the right to change our minds" vibe. So I don't know if the SHOW wanted it to clearly be a rape situation, maybe they wanted it a bit more vague? But Cudlitz clearly has read the comics and was using that for his backstory. 

 

I think we get a lot of that on this show - the show runners and the actors not always being on the same page about a character's background, motivation, etc. 

[kj4ever]

So a work friend of mine had some vacation days this week and just came back today.  He didn't watch TTD, and his assumption was Abe was an abusive husband and they ran to get away from him when they could.  TWD really dropped the ball on this episode.  People that know nothing of the comics, don't go to message boards, and don't watch TTD are totally at a loss.

[editorgrrl]

I would've taken this to the TPTB thread, but we don't seem to have one here.

People that know nothing of the comics, don't go to message boards, and don't watch TTD are totally at a loss.

Scott M. Gimple loves ambiguity. You may recognize such hits as "Is Judith dead?" and "Where's Beth?"—which built suspense. Or "What's in the box, Bob?"—which went nowhere. Or "Did Tyreese think he killed Martin?"—which is still a dangling thread.

I, personally, take it as a mark of respect for the audience. Real life is rarely (if ever) clearly telegraphed with lots of exposition. And Gimple trusts us, the viewers, to each process things in our own way. Hey, if he spelled everything out we'd have way less to talk about here. And I really enjoy seeing all the varied reactions and theories.

[diebartdie]

 

And if they want me to believe that walkers can be taken out with a firehose, they need to show me their heads being torn off from the force of the water. I kept waiting for them to get up again and I still don't understand why they didn't.

The scene did show zombie heads being blown off by the water gun and those that were not hit in the head, I thought the water pressure was strong enough to break other bones, I figured that was why none of them got up (there were still plenty waving arms though so it was still a treacherous area there)

 

I liked the episode just fine. I thought it was more interesting than Slabtown BUT I'd rather have Beth around than Abraham, he's a psycho.

[NurseGiGi]

I think think that's a gray area. When I think bad guys, I think the Gov'nor, or Gareth, Dawn & those corrupt cops, or even those Claimers. I think Eugene just latched onto an idea to buy himself company & protection and the lie just got away from him. As far as Abraham is concerned he was a broken guy who needed hope and unfortunately that need made him susceptible to Eugene's lie. However they never intentionally harmed someone. In fact from the moment they met up with Glenn and later Rick, they always showed a willingness to help. They only resumed the "mission" once they knew they were safe. 

 

That's part of why pulling from the comics makes little sense. Things that might make for a great serial tale falls flat on screen. Especially if you leave half the tale untold.

Which brings me to:

My impression was they were in a market looting or I guess gathering supplies at this point and Abe had to defend his family from a bunch of guys looting. Perhaps he was more mild mannered pre ZA and he wife was horrified at seeing him beat some to a bloody pulp like that. Yea, her actions are still stupid and the kids were a bit big to follow her blindly, but Id rather have continued with that impression than given a "in the comics..." answer.  My biggest complaint is the insistence on relying on the comics when we can't see it portrayed on the show. I'm sure they want to appease Kirkman, but it makes for stupid scenes like this that half the audience doesn't get.

I read a recap on another site and the recapper had no clue about what happened in the family scene.  He described it as a fight over food and then questioned the sanity of the wife when she ran off with the kids.  It at least seems universal in that this made no sense for her to run from safety to a certain, horrible death.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Scott M. Gimple loves ambiguity. You may recognize such hits as "Is Judith dead?" and "Where's Beth?"—which built suspense. Or "What's in the box, Bob?"—which went nowhere. Or "Did Tyreese think he killed Martin?"—which is still a dangling thread.

I, personally, take it as a mark of respect for the audience. Real life is rarely (if ever) clearly telegraphed with lots of exposition. And Gimple trusts us, the viewers, to each process things in our own way. Hey, if he spelled everything out we'd have way less to talk about here. And I really enjoy seeing all the varied reactions and theories.

 

I don't mind some ambiguity but when it comes to character back story, to me, there's a world of difference between "he killed the men who raped his wife and daughter" and "he beat his wife and kids (why else would his wife run away from him and tell him not to follow him?) and killed some guys for some (or no) reason". An argument could be made for either interpretation but the two interpretations are WORLD'S APART as far as how Abraham is viewed. The audience should not be left in doubt as to Abraham's character before we met him, IMO.

[PunkyMouse]

The scene did show zombie heads being blown off by the water gun and those that were not hit in the head, I thought the water pressure was strong enough to break other bones, I figured that was why none of them got up (there were still plenty waving arms though so it was still a treacherous area there)

I liked the episode just fine. I thought it was more interesting than Slabtown BUT I'd rather have Beth around than Abraham, he's a psycho.

Maybe it was because I was watching on the computer rather than on the tv that it didn't appear that way. All I saw was walkers being squirted and falling down. Let's not even mention the pitch black scenes or the stinky place with walkers in the road. I had no idea what was going on there.

[JackONeill]

 

Overall I think the current format allows for more variety and character growth, and some episodes work better with just one story. With that said, I still want group things too, and I'm disappointed when we see so little of Michonne (or even Carl or Rick).

 

 

By the time we get back to the A-Team (Rick, et al), Carl will be 6 feet tall and have a family!!!

[mandolin]

By the time we get back to the A-Team (Rick, et al), Carl will be 6 feet tall and have a family!!!

I laugh and agree, but then I remember that all the stories overlap, so we'll be lucky if FPP has a 5 o'clock shadow even.

[AngelaHunter]

I don't mind some ambiguity but when it comes to character back story, to me, there's a world of difference between "he killed the men who raped his wife and daughter" and "he beat his wife and kids (why else would his wife run away from him and tell him not to follow him?) and killed some guys for some (or no) reason".

 

I don't mind ambiguity either. Hell, I liked the ending of the Sopranos. But these two scenarios are polar opposites and as someone who never saw the comics and doesn't watch TD, I was totally at sea during these flashbacks. Ambiguity is not a bad thing and we don't need everything spelled out for us in words of one syllable,  but please, a clue would be nice.