S04.E07: The Snow Queen

[Dani-Ellie]

They didn't give a shit about Emma last year until they needed her to save BDO and today she was suddenly going to hurt him?

 

And that was also one of Ingrid's points: they don't mind her magic when they need it but they also fear it when it could potentially go the other way. It's playing right into "they need you because you're the savior but do they really want you for you?"

 

Accepting Emma means accepting all of her, magic included, so maybe instead of isolating her, Snow could have offered her understanding. If she didn't want Emma to take Neal, maybe make it a little less obvious? "Oh, Emma! I forgot to tell you ... my plans fell through and I don't need you to babysit after all." Something like that rather than flinching away from her daughter, maybe?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[sharky]

So when Emma said her family spans four centuries, I know she was probably referring to Neal and the out-dated notion that they are family because they had a kid together, but man, it would be great if she also meant Hook a little. Or is that just my shipper goggles talking?

Just your shipper goggles. You and I must've bought them from the same place because I thought the same thing.

Emma didn't just make the bottle glow, she made the milk boil. I don't really blame Snow for not wanting to hand her baby to Emma, but a few words of encouragement instead of a look of dread would have been nice. I also think it was OOC for Hook to just stand there at the station instead running after Emma. She could have still drove off with out him, but I wanted to see him run after her.

I can see that but I'm also glad that he didn't. It was nice to see Hook respect her wishes when everyone else -- i.e. Snow -- was turning against her. Edited November 10, 2014 by sharky

[Artsda]

What was this "us / we failed Emma" from Snow? David didn't fail her at all, it was all you Snow. David in fact saved Hook, which he'd know would hurt Emma a lot if she hurt the person she didn't want to get close to because she's scared of him being hurt. 

 

I feel like Robin has been more in love with Regina since his wife was frozen. Where is the child? He spends all his time running after Regina.  

[Rumsy4]

While DQ's flashback wasn't bad, it was very much done in shorthand. Where were the parents in all this? Did they know about Ingrid's powers? Why did Gerda turn on a dime and Urn Ingrid in a moment? Why would the Rock Trolls listen to an ambiguous statement made by Gerda and erase the whole Kingdom's memories of Helga and Ingrid? When she became un-urned, why was Ingrid in full control of her powers? Shoddy writing. However, I did feel bad for Ingrid. She never got a chance. And Helga was great! I really liked her. Duke of Weasleton was perfect! And EM is continuing to kill it as the DQ.

 

Emma would conveniently lose control of her powers in the episode where DQ taunts her about her family fearing her. Right... And let's throw Snow under the bus for the sake of plot. She treats Emma like a distant cousin. But sadly, the DQ was spot on about a lot of things. Hook and Charms going after Emma was the best! 

 

I think the secret DQ whispered has something to do with harming Hook, though how it connects, I can't imagine. Rumple looked so gleeful. When did Rumple ever want to leave Storybrooke? I can believe he would want to go back to the EF, but not the World Without Magic. 

 

Robin is the show's worst douche now. He is having sex with his wife's would-be murderer and torturer, while she lies in a frozen coma. Speechless. 

[El Seed]

I like seeing evil Rumpel, don't get me wrong, but world domination? That's never ever been Rumpel's style.

 

 

He's going full on Pinky and the Brain. I don't know who Pinky is to his Brain in this scenario though. Belle? Henry?

 

Also, it's been around 2 years since Cinderella gave birth, so what's up with her kid looking so young?

 

 

Robin is the show's worst douche now. He is having sex with his wife's would-be murderer and torturer, while she lies in a frozen coma. Speechless.

 

Word. I don't know if I can properly convey my loathing for this storyline and for Robin. When Regina, proponent of disproportionate retribution, comes off as more sensible, something is way the fuck wrong.

Edited November 10, 2014 by El Seed

[Mari]

IQuestion#1: Why did Emma seem so surprised at the amount of baby gear that went with BDO? Doesn't she still have her fake memories of raising Henry?

While I agree with the theory that Emma was probably a no-nonsense mother who carted around the absolute minimum, (partly because she would've been super broke with Baby Henry), it's also possible that those memories went poof when the memory curse broke on Storybrooke--Henry's memories apparently went away, and Regina's pretty possessive.

 

Also, it's been around 2 years since Cinderella gave birth, so what's up with her kid looking so young?

 

Maybe there's some sort of magical age redistribution in Storybrooke?  After all, only a few days ago, Aurora was only pregnant enough to show a little tiny bit.  Maybe Aurora and Philip deaged Cindy's for their own benefit. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Mari

[InsertWordHere]

So Gold is totally trolling Henry and knows the whole plan, right?

[KingOfHearts]

 

I like seeing evil Rumpel, don't get me wrong, but world domination? That's never ever been Rumpel's style.

I don't believe Rumple wants to take over the world - just live there like he did in the Enchanted Forest with all the power. He wants to go discover new things and get whatever he wants without fear. In Storybrooke there's always something magical to threaten him, but in the real world everyone is totally powerless against him.

 

 

I didn't see the whole ep yet..but did I misunderstand or did Will imply Anastasia was dead?

The writers just left it purposely ambiguous, if you ask me.

Edited November 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[wingster55]

I didn't see the whole ep yet..but did I misunderstand or did Will imply Anastasia was dead? 

[sharky]

Also, it's been around 2 years since Cinderella gave birth, so what's up with her kid looking so young?

Thank you! I thought the exact same thing. Also, why was her baby the same age as the Snow and Aurora offspring when they were pregnant at completely different times?

[pezgirl7]

I think that's her second kid. It's the only thing that makes sense since her first baby was a girl.

[InsertWordHere]

Show is in Spring 2013, Alex was born in November 2011 so she is around 16-18 months old by my figuring.

[regularlyleaded]

Ella also called her baby "Alex" (in that good-bye song). So is this supposed to be the same baby she gave birth to back in season 1 (in episode 4 IIRC), the one that was a girl named Alexandra and should be over two years old now??? WTF, Show. Lemme tell you about a thing I like to call "continuity"...

Edited November 10, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

Also, I think it would've been one thing if Snow had said to Emma "maybe we should wait on you babysitting since you're magic is "revved" up, as a precaution", but that wasn't her reaction. Snow's reaction was to cringe in fear. And then admonishing Emma like she was purposely out to hurt someone when she clearly wasn't is a huge problem. Everything the Snow Queen told Emma was kinda true -- the events exposed an actual fear Snow has of Emma and her magic and a fear that is conveniently ignored when she needs The Savior to save them. That's the point the Snow Queen was going for.

 

Snow being reluctant to handover BDO seconds after Emma made the milk boil made sense, but it was the cringing that made it horrible. In that moment, she was a mama bear protecting her child from Emma. That can't be a pleasant feeling for Emma. Snow has no tact. Yelling at Emma over the lamp post accident was worse, because Emma was asking people to stay away. And Snow was acting as though Emma was trying to hurt her precious husband, completely ignoring the fact that David is Emma's dad. Yes, we get it Snow. You love David and BDO, but Emma is your daughter too. Don't treat her like a distant cousin.

 

So Gold is totally trolling Henry and knows the whole plan, right?

 

I wish that were true, but somehow I doubt it. Operation Mongoose is so stupid, that even Rumple will be surprised. heh However, he may suspect something is off... 

[Lieutenant]

Robin is the show's worst douche now. He is having sex with his wife's would-be murderer and torturer, while she lies in a frozen coma. Speechless. 

Not to mention, giant make out sesh after having a nice little "remember when" with Will over how he met Marian.  In truth, I find it extremely hard to pay attention to what's happening when he's on screen, but I feel like there was some mention of how Marian changed him, and how he became an honorable man because of her?  So glad he was able to drunkenly hash that out with his former bro before dry humping Regina in a crypt.  *GAG* 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Lieutenant

[thuganomics85]

Cinderella?!  Aurora?!  They live!  That was random, but cool.  I still wonder if we'll ever see poor Mulan again, though.

 

Ha!  Lizzie from The Walking Dead as Young Ingrid/Snow Queen is just such bizarre, but perfect casting.  As soon as I saw her, I was like "Oh, she's totally SQ!"  Overall, I enjoyed the flashbacks, despite the obvious plot points.  They've managed to make Ingrid sympathetic on some levels, but it doesn't feel like they are saying we should root for her (and, least, not yet), and she is still doing horrible things.  As long as they keep this balance, I'm fine with it.  Plus, Elizabeth Mitchell killed it.  She's really making me forget about her awful performances on Revolution the past two years.

 

Seriously... as others have ask, what is this "we" we're talking about, Snow?  Yes, after the explosion and dodging the lamp post, Charming (and Hook) looked concerned, but they still seem to be worried for Emma, and wanted to help her.  You were the only one that was treating her like a monster, and snapped at her like she was doing it on purpose.  Stop with that shit, Snow.  This was all you.  Now, I don't blame you for being freaked out on some levels, but you handled it the worst way possible.  Don't try to rope your husband and the rest in this, Mrs. White.  At this point, I almost want Emma to briefly cross the dark side, so Snow can feel like shit (unlike Cora's death, she'd deserve it this time.)

 

It's official: I hate Robin more then Regina.  I still hate the writers obvious love for Regina and her redemption, but at least she recognizes she is a villain.  Robin really acts like he is some noble guy, who is above it.  No, your just an asshole.  Your wife is still a frozen Popsicle, and you just want to make out with Regina in her lair.  Such a stand-up guy.  I really want Marian to wake up, and realize how much he sucks.

 

Whatever SQ told Rumple at the end, better be worth it.  His grin was great to behold.  I want them to just go back to making Rumple Full-On Villain.

 

Really hope we get more Will soon.  Michael Socha is great in his few bits, and I really want to know what happen that messed up him and Anastasia, and if it is permanent or fixable.  If not, maybe he can find someone else (hey, Marian!)

[Souris]

I know they usually try to give Regina all the shinies possible, but do you think it's possible they actually are  trying to make Robin/Regina unpalatable?

 

No, they're not that good. They're all in on Robin/Regina being soul mates. They just suck at it.

[regularlyleaded]

Snow being reluctant to handover BDO seconds after Emma made the milk boil made sense, but it was the cringing that made it horrible. In that moment, she was a mama bear protecting her child from Emma. That can't be a pleasant feeling for Emma.

IA, Rumsy4. It was how Snow reacted (cringing and admonishment) that made it a problem for me and it's what Emma reacted to.

 

Also, it's interesting that what set off Emma's power as seen with the baby bottle was the fact that she was seeing everything she missed out on by being sent through a wardrobe and that Snow was so involved with Snowflake in a way she never would be in Emma's life. That rational or not, Emma doesn't quite feel like she's really their daughter (not in the way she should've been) no matter how much of a good game she talks.

 

I don't know that the writing will touch upon this further, but it's about damn time they recognized that Emma should be having some sort of reaction to seeing what she missed out on as a child (not having a family, growing up alone, and instead being sent through wardrobe to save everyone). She should be having some reaction other than "I'm fine. Everything's cool!". Emma likes to push all those emotions down and hide them, but the writing has got to be honest with the character and acknowledge that those feelings are there. About damn. time.

 

I'll forever love the Snow Queen for bringing up every single damn thing many of us have been talking about for ages concerning Snow and Emma's strained relationship, Echo Caves, BDO, and Snow and Charming only coming back for Emma when they needed her to save them.

Edited November 10, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[stealinghome]

Also: can someone please remind Emma--I mean the writers--that the original plan was to have Snow go through the wardrobe with Emma? If you want to point fingers and can't bring yourselves to remind everyone that Regina and Rumpel are really to blame, you better start pointing them at Pinocchio and Gepetto.

[Mari]

I'll forever love the Snow Queen for bringing up every single damn thing many of us have been talking about for ages concerning Snow and Emma's strained relationship, Echo Caves, BDO, and Snow and Charming only coming back for Emma when they needed her to save them.

Yes.  This.  I just desperately hope A&E don't try to pretend it's all lies by a manipulative, evil woman. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes.  This.  I just desperately hope A&E don't try to pretend it's all lies by a manipulative, evil woman.

So we got the Snow Queen bringing up the Charming familly issues, Mirror Belle telling Belle about her fail marriage and the fake dagger, and Regina telling Robin it's over and he needs to go back to his wife. Well, it looks like we finally got our voices. It's almost like a shout-out.

 

 

they're the ones who wrote today, so it's not like they're completely oblivious to these Emma issues.

In times like these it's scary how aware the writers really are about this stuff.

Edited November 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Yes.  This.  I just desperately hope A&E don't try to pretend it's all lies by a manipulative, evil woman.

they're the ones who wrote today, so it's not like they're completely oblivious to these Emma issues.

[Mathius]

Ingrid / Elizabeth Mitchell truly is the next Pan / Robbie Kay. This villain and actor who are just so good that whomever follows in the B half of the season is almost bound to disappoint. :(

Really hope we get more Will soon.  Michael Socha is great in his few bits, and I really want to know what happen that messed up him and Anastasia, and if it is permanent or fixable.  If not, maybe he can find someone else (hey, Marian!)

It's fixable. That was the whole lesson in their OUATIW story and this scene clearly set it up as the lesson again. Not to mention they are confirmed True Love and A&E recently confirmed they aim to have Anastasia come on the show in 4B.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Will's whole story arc here is a giant rehash of his one on OUATIW. Him, Anastasia and their love story was THE most well-received part of that show, so it's obvious that ABC wanted it put on the main show and give it to a wider audience, it was the main success to a big failure.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Mathius

[placate]

Take a shot every time someone says monster!

[SzmuttyPratfall]

I GOT IT... Robin's a douche for the same reason David was a douche in season 1!!! A curse. When Tink tried to set up Regina and Robin she made a spell, and now that Robin is closer to Regina, he is actually enslaved to love her... this is my head!Canon and is the only way I can accept what is happening with him on this show.

[Actionmage]

As to Emma's powers going wonky all of a sudden, I believe it was tied-in with the candle and spell. All DQ had to do was ensorcell that candle and conveniently leave the book with runes where Belle and Elsa could find said "help". We saw how Ingrid snapped her fingers and the spell shackles broke for her.  Also Emma's eyes were glowing red when she was frustrated/angry with Ingrid.  The trial run with the candle primed Emma, is what I am betting.

 

While I am disappointed in Snow ( about both the baby and the light), they were both momentary reactions. If Emma hadn't had Regina and Ingrid nibbling away at what peace of mind she'd gained about Snow and David, I think she would've laughed off the bottle incident. Speaking of that, all Snow had to do was calmly set Neal into the stroller and strap him in. Brush off the bottle for the sake of Emma and the other moms there. ( I did like that Cindy seemed warm and friendly to Emma when Emma came in.)

 

I just can't about anything Regina anymore. Shut up, Show.

 

More coyness about Anna's heartbeat. I hope that is addressed super soon. I would like Anna and Kristoff to be a happy couple and Elsa a happy royal with her sister by her side.

 

Will is pretty. (My ABC station was having sync problems for a bit of the episode, so I didn't listen to the Will/Robin thing too closely. I gave a side-eye to the "if you will mess up your life for someone, do it!" POV on love relationships, but it's practically par for the course on this show lately.)

 

Loved the younger sisters, but the Li'l Ingrid was another casting coup, imo. She had the Ingrid/EM stuff pretty well in hand.

 

Still deciding how I feel about some things.

[venturestar]

 

When she became un-urned, why was Ingrid in full control of her powers?

 

 

Ingrid had to be un-urned and then re-urned for Anna to find. She tells Rumple that she had the hat a lot longer than he did, and she didn't have the hat before going into the urn the first time. There has to be more to the story or there is a huge continuity error.

 

Also, it's been around 2 years since Cinderella gave birth, so what's up with her kid looking so young

 

 

I had assumed it was her second kid. Didn't one of the characters say, "you've gotten so good at this!". I assumed that meant she had extensive baby experience at this point. Maybe she named her kids Alex and Alexandra?

 

 

Yelling at Emma over the lamp post accident was worse, because Emma was asking people to stay away

You can actually hear Rumple telling people, "I think we should listen to her", or something to that effect, while the others are freaking out. Uh, people, when the 2 magic users in the group are telling you to back off, back off!

Edited November 10, 2014 by venturestar

[sharky]

Whoa, how have we gone this long without mentioning Hook's mirror quote? "I'm more devilishly handsome and charming than usual." Sooooo does that foreshadow that he's sort of a Charming now? Write it down as another wedding foreshadowing clue.

[pcta]

DQ's collar bones are scary. Way too skinny and when shot from above they look sharp enough to slice bread. Also, looked way too old in flashbacks.

Atypically, all the angst bored me tonight.

[Bluerang1]

Poor Helga. That is all. 

[stealinghome]

You know, it strikes me that Emma should have snapped right back at Dairy Queen with "You don't love me for me, either, you just want me to replace one of your dead sisters." That may be one of the creepier things about Ingrid--she goes on and on about how Emma's family doesn't love her or really know her, etc etc, but Dairy Queen totally wants Emma and Elsa to be Sister-Do-Overs, and seems totally oblivious to, or uncaring about, this fact!

 

I will say that after tonight I think they must be headed toward something big on the Snow/Emma front (then again, it is this show). Up until now I could see the fact that the David/Emma relationship is much easier and less strained as something that can be explained by the fact that Emma and Charming are much more similar, that mother/daughter relationships are often more fraught than father/daughter relationships, etc etc etc. But tonight seemed to make such a point of having Snow be the one to react poorly to Emma, while the worst thing Charming did was wince in pain and look concerned, that it felt too OTT and belabored to be anything other than an intentional setting-up of something.

 

...then again, it is this show.

[Rumsy4]

Also: can someone please remind Emma--I mean the writers--that the original plan was to have Snow go through the wardrobe with Emma? 

 

Or that Regina was seconds away from killing a newborn when Charming put her inside a wardrobe. Snow and Charming did what they thought was best, but it's the lack of proper follow-up after the Curse broke that's been the problem. After that Neverland speech between Snow and Emma in Lost Girl, everything went downhill.

 

Ingrid had to be un-urned and then re-urned for Anna to find. She tells Rumple that she had the hat a lot longer than he did, and she didn't have the hat before going into the urn the first time. There has to be more to the story or there is a huge continuity error.

 

When did Anna find DQ? This is the time-line I pieced together: Ingrid gets Urned by Gerda. The Urn somehow ends up with Hans. Ingrid comes out of the Urn, and tries to make a Happy Family with Elsa and Anna, but turns against Anna, imprisons her and confiscates the Hat. She tries to turn Elsa against Anna, but fails. Ingrid wipes Elsa's memories and Urns her, and traps Anna and Kristoff. She then spends years researching the Hat, loses it, finds out about Emma, and lands in the Real World. She finds teen Emma, something goes sour in their relationship, so she wipes her memories. She then lands in Storybrooke and has been trying to complete her spell of Shattered Sight ever since. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Beezel]

Accepting Emma means accepting all of her, magic included, so maybe instead of isolating her, Snow could have offered her understanding. If she didn't want Emma to take Neal, maybe make it a little less obvious? "Oh, Emma! I forgot to tell you ... my plans fell through and I don't need you to babysit after all." Something like that rather than flinching away from her daughter, maybe?

 

 

 

Absolutely agree. Plus, she seemed to have no regard for the fact that like five seconds before Emma expressed discomfort over the idea that Snow considered Neal as her first "real" baby. Clearly, these emotions influenced her loosing control of her magic. I don't  honestly believe Snow wanted her to feel that way, but then again her reaction not only came down to  her being unable to trust Emma's magic, it also showed her  completely disregarding Emma's feelings of abandonment that influenced the magic. IMO, all of this just makes Snow look like a huge asshole. 

 

Also, add me to the group that hated her use of "we." I had to scream at the TV in that moment. Charming was reacting to being HIT with a light pole, YOU were the one that treated Emma horribly.

 

I had to laugh when I noticed that young!Snow Queen was Lizzie  from The Walking Dead, though truly it was another great casting decision!

 

Mainly this episode was pretty good, though I agree Robin is a douche and seemingly a terrible father.    Also, we had to see the return of Henry's shitty sweeping skills, though I thought Rumple's trick with the furniture polish was hilarious. Another minor bug for me is just how many times they've used the word "monster" this season. Can't we go with a synonym? I mean really.

 

Additionally, I have to admit seeing Aurora again always makes me sad that she's not out having awesome romantic adventures with Mulan. :/

Edited November 10, 2014 by Beezel

[Bluerang1]

I was happy to see Ashley again! The three main Disney princesses all together with their babies was great <3

[Shanna Marie]

I have a new strategy for scenes involving Robin. As soon as he opens his mouth to speak, I start singing "Let it Go" at the top of my lungs and don't stop until his mouth stops moving. It makes it sooo much easier to take. Are they trying to make him the worst jerk who ever jerked? I mean, really, he's just not feeling it with the woman who inspired him to turn his life around because he's just too in love with her would-be murderer, the woman who represents what he was fighting against, after a couple of dates? And then after rehashing what Marian meant to him, he goes and cheats on her? In the spoiler thread after a script tease there was speculation that he met Marian outside the tavern after the pixie dust incident and maybe thought she was the woman he'd briefly noticed, but this might actually have been worse. Seriously, die in a fire, Robin. I made my wish in the wish thread for Lady Cluck to join the cast. Marian needs a BFF who won't put up with this nonsense.

 

I felt that Emma losing control of her powers happened too quickly. There should have been more bread crumbs in the previous episodes to build up to this moment.

This goes back to something I said today in the All Seasons thread about how they write this show as though it's episodic, even though it's heavily serialized. This was The One Where Emma Loses Control of Her Powers instead of them planting any seeds whatsoever in previous episodes. In fact, what we've seen previously is that she has a hard time bringing up her powers at all, not trouble controlling them.

 

Also, it's interesting that what set off Emma's power to with the baby bottle was the fact that she was seeing everything she missed out on by being sent through a wardrobe and that Snow was so involved with Snowflake in a way she's never would be in her life.

But I thought that upset came from the way Mary Margaret reacted to Emma commenting on her learning the parenting stuff. I didn't think it was so much seeing the Mommy and Me stuff as it was Snow being so oblivious to her and then acting all offended by the suggestion that she didn't do that stuff with Emma. It spiraled downhill from here, with Emma becoming self-conscious because of Snow's hurt reaction and Snow continuing to act offended and hurt. Really, shouldn't it have been Snow trying to comfort and reassure her daughter after realizing what Emma must be feeling? Yeah, they're both adults, but Emma was the one who had no choice in how things happened and who missed out on having a mother. Snow was already being weird before the bottle started boiling. That was why the bottle started boiling. It was like, how dare Emma bring up the fact that Snow didn't raise her. I can see being freaked out by the lamppost thing and by the bottle boiling. It was the initial response to Emma calling her a first-time mother that bothered me. Under these circumstances, yes, Snow is a first-time mother, just as Emma will be if she has another child. She hasn't really been through this phase of motherhood before.

 

It was kind of fun getting to hear the Dairy Queen recite the Emma thread from this board. Some of us should probably have been given a writing credit for this episode.

 

Also, it was cute that Belle tried to pull Hook specifically away from the mirror.

Well, he has such a terribly dark heart, you know. Actually, I have a feeling the mirror could say its worst to him, and he'd be like, "Yeah, tell me something I don't know. And I think you forgot a few things."

[brisbydog]

Apparently my decision to skip all Regina/Robin scenes was a good one. I quite liked the rest of the episode. 

[venturestar]

When did Anna find DQ? This is the time-line I pieced together: Ingrid gets Urned by Gerda. The Urn somehow ends up with Hans. Ingrid comes out of the Urn, and tries to make a Happy Family with Elsa and Anna, but turns against Anna, imprisons her and confiscates the Hat.

 

Oops, you're right. I forgot that Ingrid gets the hat from Anna. Well, then, my only guess for why Ingrid's suddenly so in control of her magic is because she no longer cares who she hurts. Before she was terrified of hurting someone and that made her out of control. Now, she doesn't care and is icy calm. Thus her magic is in control.

[FilmTVGeek80]

 

 

I'm sure I'll be in the minority with this, but I actually don't have a problem with Snow being reluctant to hand her baby over when Emma just made the bottle glow, or David kind of side-eyeing Emma when she just made a lamp pole fall over onto him. I did think Snow's "Emma!" was too harsh, but...I probably wouldn't want to hand my baby over to someone who just made a bottle glow, either, sorry if that makes me a terrible person. Overall, this forced fear thing, for me, is really weak, because people can fear you and not urn you, and Emma should be rational enough to realize this. imo Dairy Queen's argument would have been better if she'd kept hammering at Emma's mommy and daddy issues (but then I guess we'd have to admit that Regina is the core of all those issues, which we can't have). (Also these are the same people who let Regina and Rumpel prance around all the time, just saying.)

Also, Hook, maybe next time don't grab the freaking-out woman who wants you to keep your distance. I did awww that it was Daddy Charming and Hook who went after Emma the most. Her boys.

The Snow Queen is perhaps the first legitimately sympathetic villain we've ever had, and yet the show isn't using this sympathy to try to make her less of a villain. She's awesome! The three sisters was just, ack, my feels. All were pretty good actresses. And Elizabeth Mitchell is just killing it in this role. Every week she gets better and better (and creepier and creepier). Also...she has serious chemistry with Robert Carlyle. I like Rumbelle more than most posters here, and even I was like "...we could get rid of Belle...."

 

IA about both points.

 

I'm not on the "death to Snow" bandwagon. I don't like it when they do BS like making Snow having a black spot on her heart for protecting her family, but I like that despite their reputations, neither David or Snow are perfect. They are allowed to make mistakes, doesn't make them the devil. My only problems with Snow this episode were her lumping in David with her at the end and her yelling at Emma in a scolding manner after the lamp post incident. But I can't really blame her for not wanting to hand Neal over to Emma after Emma made the bottle freakin boil and wasn't even aware of it. That actually is something to be concerned about. I think she was definitely wary after that but probably still let Emma baby-sit.

 

While the yelling at Emma later and lumping in David with her faulty parenting later sucked, at least Snow looked immediately guilty after yelling at Emma and expressed guilt for how she acted at the end. Snow realized she fucked up as sometimes parents do.

 

I like that there's some conflict between Emma and her parents, and there are real issues between them, but I don't think it's true at all that either David or Snow don't care about Emma. I complained about this a couple of episodes back, but it seems as if once the writers realized they needed to start working on David and Emma's relationship, they completely abandoned Emma and Snow's relationship. It hasn't been developed well at all lately, but that doesn't correlate to Snow not caring for Emma.

 

I still hate Regina more than Robin. He's definitely being a douche, but until he's raped and murdered a bunch of people he would still have a ways to go to climb up to Regina's abhorrent levels. In a way Regina's kind of getting the guy she deserves.

 

I like Ingrid and she does feel genuinely sympathetic, unlike Regina. If they wanted to redeem her I wouldn't mind.

[MadyGirl1987]

Ugh, Snow! Just ugh...  I get being scared by something you don't quite understand, but you grew up in a world with magic and should know enough not to blame Emma when something is obviously not right and she is obviously not in control. You have know Emma for a while now and know this is an isolated incident. When stuff like this keeps happening consistently, then we'll talk... Maybe we will get a Smallville-style power switch and SNOW will have to see what it is like having powers you don't understand(I wouldn't put it past the show) Was happy when Elsa spoke about her experience with her family. The Captain Swan shipper in me did love how Hook was trying to comfort her and was still trying when she ran off.

 

I enjoyed the flashback and have to say this is the first villain I have actually felt sorry for. I also liked we found out why Elsa has powers; all magic comes with a price. That ending scene with Elsa and Anna's mom confused me though. Does SHE remember the incident, or is her memory wiped as well, because I was thinking how her experience with her sister colored her parenting of Elsa, but if she didn't remember her sisters... Also; am I the only one who thought she looked SO MUCH like Anna in that last scene with Grand Pabbie?

[stealinghome]

That ending scene with Elsa and Anna's mom confused me though. Does SHE remember the incident, or is her memory wiped as well, because I was thinking how her experience with her sister colored her parenting of Elsa, but if she didn't remember her sisters... Also; am I the only one who thought she looked SO MUCH like Anna in that last scene with Grand Pabbie?

It wasn't at all just you--I thought they deliberately made her look just like Anna in that shot.

 

I'm assuming that Gerda retained the memories of her sisters, because I assume that's the message she was trying to send Elsa and Anna in 4x01, before the ship capsized. That or she and her husband found Rumpel and he restored her lost memories of her sisters.

[FilmTVGeek80]

 

I didn't think it was so much seeing the Mommy and Me stuff as it was Snow being so oblivious to her and then acting all offended by the suggestion that she didn't do that stuff with Emma. It spiraled downhill from here, with Emma becoming self-conscious because of Snow's hurt reaction and Snow continuing to act offended and hurt.

 

Mileages definitely vary. I had a totally different interpretation of Snow's reaction in that scene. I didn't think she was acting offended and hurt. After Ashley made the comment about first time mothers and Emma got weird about it, Snow bent over backwards to reassure Emma that she didn't see herself as a first time mother. Then Emma did her usual Wall of Gibraltar act like nothing is bothering her and tried to laugh it off, which I don't think Snow was buying at all.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I didn't at all think Snow was huffy in that scene. It was really Cinderella's really insensitive comment about Snow a first-time mother that set Emma off, and Snow was like "Emma, no, you know I don't think about it like that." Only then Emma made the bottle radioactive, which kinda stole the show.

[Jean]

Anna's a lot more like Aunt Helga than her momma. If they only gave Helga a couple more hours to live she would've saved herself and Ingrid. Although Anna was being kind of judgy towards Ingrid last episode.

What's up with Gerda's great memory wipe plan? It's so hokey, I just can't. Ingrid's plan is full of holes too. Since time travel is now possible she could go back in time for her real sisters. Or instead of erasing their memories of her, why doesn't she wipe their memories of eveyone but herself?

I did love the Ingrid/Elsa/Emma scenes. It's cool to see that Ingrid's the only one able to ruffle both their feathers. I'd like to see the DQ finally lose her cool at the hands of Elsa/Emma too. I had to laugh though at Emma telling Elsa to take a chill pill only to blow up spectacularly herself.

Also loved DQ and Rumple scenes. Not only is she the first one to have his number, she's the first to have something he wants and she also rejected his "let me teach you" self. I think she played him at the end.

[retrograde]

OH, I forget the best line of the episode: "I dare not touch that devil box. I won't make that mistake twice!"

[Mathius]

Anna's a lot more like Aunt Helga than her momma. If they only gave Helga a couple more hours to live she would've saved herself and Ingrid. Although Anna was being kind of judgy towards Ingrid last episode.

True, and I think that was super triggering to Ingrid, especially at the end of the flashback. But one big difference Anna still showed was that once Ingrid revealed that she really had wanted to be a family with her and Elsa and that Anna's distrust just reinforced her negative view of people, she was clearly regretful. There were tears in her eyes and everything. Whereas momma Gerta showed no regret for urning Ingrid, just Regina-esque woe and self-pity.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I'll have to rewatch to get a better take on the stuff with Emma and Snow. I just know that I was already furious with Snow and engaging in some rage knitting even before she reacted to the boiling bottle, and I barely noticed the boiling bottle, I was so sidetracked by the steam coming out of my ears. So Snow must have done something that made me blame her for the boiling bottle, which made her reaction to it seem even worse to me. And I'm not usually quite that critical of Snow, to the point that I'm looking for things to be mad at her about. I usually manage to see things from her perspective and didn't even hate her for the staying in Neverland plan.

[Souris]

Take a shot every time someone says monster!

 

I'm currently typing via telekinesis from an alcohol coma. Seriously, I never want to hear that word again. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

 

My general reaction to this ep: Eh, whatever. I'm pretty much emotionally divorced from the show now, thanks to the offensiveness of 4x05. I fast-forwarded through every Regina scene. I can't even deal with her and the OQ melodrama anymore.

 

I did think the fairybacks (Aren-backs?) came off as cheap and cheesy, and the dialogue was cringe-inducingly bad and stilted -- especially the first one with the kids. It was almost cable-access bad.

 

I hate what they did with Snow being scared of Emma. I blame the writers more than Snow, because they needed Emma to feel isolated, so Snow got to hold the Plot-Device Ball (this comes in a play set with the Idiot Ball and the Contrivance Stick).

 

I think DQ is lying to Rumple about what he needs for the hat. She told him to do something (probably to do with Hook) that she knew he wanted to do anyway, but in the end helps her more than it does him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I did think the fairybacks (Aren-backs?) 

Frozenbacks! :)

[MedievalGirl]

How adorbs did Henry look in a suit?

It seemed to me that Gerta wasn't ever totally on team Ingrid. She looked to Helga before taking Ingrid's hand when they were kids and seemed slightly less enthused than Helga in the ball scene. With Helga dead Gerta had no one to balance her fears. 

I love that when Hook said the word charming, Charming turned his head.

I can't abandon team Snow despite all the crappy things I've seen about her here. Emma certainly can't throw stones about giving up a baby and missing out on Mommy and Me classes. (Though I suppose she did throw far less metaphorical stones.)  If you want to get technical she used Henry to break a curse too. Don't let the bad guys monglogue, Emma. You know better. 

[Camera One]

Overall, this episode was better than a lot of the episodes this season.  I do understand the Snow Queen a little better now, and I do feel for what happened to her, to an extent.  It does help that she hasn't done anything completely evil so far, and I'm hoping she froze Marion because she figured Regina would take out her heart.  They did an awesome job casting the younger version of the Snow Queen.  The backstory was slightly clunky (especially for the character of Anna/Elsa's mother), but overall, I think it did work.

 

I had a slight problem with the usual obvious-as-heck trick whereby a villain gets caught intentionally, and the "good guys" take half the episode to figure it out.

 

I just love the dynamic that Emma and Elsa have with each other.  It is so nice to see her with a friend.

 

It was also fun to see Cinderella and Aurora.  

 

The Robin Hood stuff was the worst part of this episode.  Why?  Why are they having him go to kiss Regina AFTER hearing a heartfelt quote about his frozen wife?  Do they think forbidden love is attractive?  Because it is totally not.  With horrible lines like "I've lived by that code (of honor)... but not today.", it felt like a bad Harlequin romance novel.   And they're still having Regina and Henry go on about Operation Mongoose?  Emma really does not get to react to Henry working at Gold's shop?  I did like Regina looking at the page with her almost being hit by arrows.  I'm going to imagine she had a reflective thought that she should be lucky she's alive.  

 

I felt really badly for Emma in this episode.  They did a good job of getting her to that place where she felt she was alone.  But I am not convinced they needed to throw Snow under the bus to get there.  What nerve to basically have the Snow Queen listing people's complaints about their neglectful writing for Snow from 3B and use it for this storyline.  If this is finally going to give us some good scenes with Snow and Emma next week, then I will be okay with this, but somehow, I have my doubts based on how they had Snow act in this episode.  Why did they write Snow's line as "We" messed up?  I think Snow as we knew her from S1-2 would have just blamed herself (especially since David did not do anything wrong).  She would have impulsively run after Emma.  Why didn't they have Snow (or David, Hook or Henry) run after Emma?  They needed to set up the scene so whatever Emma blasted away prevented ANYONE from getting to her.  Snow seemed quite angry at herself at Cinderella's baby studio, so I expected her to try to go talk to Emma later, but nope.  I really don't understand what they're trying to do with Snow's character... they seem to bend over backwards to ensure even the villains can gain some sympathy for their actions but they don't even try for Snow.  At the very least, have her express her remorse to Aurora or Cinderella or Charming.  They treated her like a minor character when she was supposed to be the main motivator for the protagonist (Emma)'s actions.  This Emma-feels-alone-due-to-her-magic thing *could* have worked and been good, but not the way it was done.  Again, the payoff next week BETTER be good and they actually use Ginnifer Goodwin.

 

I can't believe the writers had the gall to use the word "fail-safe" multiple times in this episode.  

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One