S03.E04: The Magician

[AnyoneButYou]

I didn't watch the episode, but I wanted to see if anyone on the show has mentioned Dinah at all. I don't get why she hasn't been told of Sara's death. I don't know if Alex Kingston is busy or whatever, but it shouldn't be that difficult for Laurel to at least text her and be like :

 

Mom,

Sara's dead again. I'm taking over her life now.

 

Love,

Sara 4.0 (Formerly Known As Laurel)

Edited October 30, 2014 by AnyoneButYou

[Password]

This was an interesting episode. Before I give my views, I'd like to highlight that since pretty much episode 16 of season 2, I've watched Arrow with my brain switched off. If I don't overthink, it's still entertaining.

 

First of all, Nyssa is a beautiful soul who's pain I felt in a terrible way. This woman needs more screen time. She's wonderful and that scene where Oliver is talking about Sara favourite something or other was touching. Her vengeful side is something I can actually relate to. I feel her anger, her pain and loss. I think she'll end up betraying her daddy actually. He said Sara was never really one of them after she left. Ras was...interesting. Looks like rugby did a number on him not gonna lie. But I'll need more screen time from him to have an opinion because I don't read comics so I really can't contrast.

 

I really don't like hating on acting, but OMG do I feel nothing when Laurel talks about her pain concerning Sara. When the two were in scenes together this episode I couldn't help but feel loss for Nyssa but utter confusion concerning Laurel. Perhaps it's because I've never thought Laurel and Sara were close, but all I get from Laurel is straight face and looking into the distance when she talks about losing Sara. I really don't like it, I can't connect to her pain. Nyssa, Oliver, Quentin (I'm getting there) I feel their pain acutely. I'm just very confused about what I'm supposed to feel concerning Laurel and her vengeful ways. She acted kind of schizo with Oliver today but insisted Merlz needs to die. I really would like it if the two of them never communicate ever again. She's constantly mad at him (shout out to season 1) because he doesn't do what she wants. Never mind that he doesn't do the right thing. And no, I don't think he should kill Merlz (although capturing him is the very least he could do). Good on her for punching bags. If she goes evil...OK. I thought season 2 provided that motivation so I'm a little less than sold on revenge right now. End of rant (about Laurel).

 

The contrast between current day Oliver and Oliver in China is actually interesting. I was shocked at the way he just walked up to that dude and killed him. But character wise, the two Olivers are in very similar positions. One losing his humanity, one gaining it back, but both very conflicted by their conscience. I'm not sure about Diggle being pro killing Merlyn, but I do think that even if Nyssa or someone else did, and Oliver could stop it, it's something he would take onto his shoulders because Merlz is in his head "kill Thea's father Oliver". Oliver tends to take the world's problems onto his shoulders even though he has nothing to do with it. That said, I'm unhappy that Oliver is protecting Merlyn. He has no business doing that at all, and it's very stupid on his part because at the end of the day, Merlyn is a murdering psychopath. They needed that for further plot purposes of course (remember I said I turn my brain off?)

 

Thea and Roy. Whilst Olicity is in hiatus I am firmly in the Thoy camp. They're so adorable and supportive of one another (hmm another couple used to be this) that I can't fault any of their interactions. Thea is someone whom I just cannot wait to see how her story unfolds. Naughty naughty with daddy Merlyn and lying to Oliver. But even that I couldn't believe Oliver didn't see through Thea. Seeing things he wants to see no doubt. And Roy is so low key that I'm intrigued with what they're going to do with him too. I'm so glad Colton Haynes gets to smile because has a beautiful smile. One of my season 3 wishes come true :D

 

Quentin. Quentin. I am through will everyone lying to him. His baby girl is dead, dead dead, and no one thinks he should know. I'm even disappointed that Nyssa didn't tell Quentin. After she found out about him not knowing, that was an opportune time to tell him. She didn't need to rat Laurel out, although she should've, because he needs to know. There is no good time to tell someone their baby is gone. None.

 

More Diggle necessary to further this paragraph.

 

I am actually glad Felicity wasn't in this episode. There was no place for her, because other people had to be smart (again, brain switched off for the fire to paper thing). I'm glad she wasn't here because this is not the show that Felicity Smoak belongs to. The grimmer than grim scenes, the because plot finds it necessary situations, Laurel being in the foundry and angry for being angry's sake. Nope, get my girl outta there, and having fun with Barry. When Felicity is in the episode, it honestly feels like a different show. Two different shows because of one character. Damn.

 

That being said, bring on The Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak!!!!!! OMG I am so excited for that episode I can barely stand it.

[paigow]

Since many Spartacus alumni are showing up in Arrow, an Australian Ras is not surprising.  Actually less distracting than someone trying to imitate Liam Neeson.

[SleepDeprived]

So... That happened. It was mostly unremarkable, unexciting, and underwhelming. *sigh* And to think this was the 50th episode of Arrow. I would've thought it would be... something else. Something more.

 

I did learn something from this episode, though. With the glaring absence of Felicity, my notions/musings that I would have never continued watching this show or gotten so invested in it if she never became a regular was pretty much solidly confirmed. As much as I love Diggle, and like Oliver and Thea a whole lot, if Felicity leaves/dies/gets shipped off to The Flash or some other spin-off, I'm done with Arrow.

 

Nyssa was fabulous as always. I freaking love Katrina Law and her blown out, gorgeous af hair. I cheered when she punched Oliver. I snickered when she said Laurel wasn't fit to wear Sara's jacket. I fist pumped when she told Oliver how dumb it was to make an enemy of someone like her/the LOA, just to protect a mass murderer. I don't think my reaction should be to root for the anti-hero/possible future opponent than this show's hero, though.

 

The 3-way fight scene of Oliver, Malcolm, and Nyssa was pretty cool. As was Oliver catching Thea after he severed the ropes. I'm really liking Thea's direction this season. And Roy's maturity. Diggle remains awesome.

 

I still frakking hate that Laurel continues to keep Quentin in the dark about Sara's death. And nothing that she did or said in this episode has made me care one iota about Laurel and her journey. Make me want to watch her instead of paying more attention to my dinner/phone/laptop whenever she's on screen, show. Make me feel something about this woman if you insist on keeping her around.

 

Oh, and this show's Amanda Waller continues to suck. The flashbacks are boring. Barrowman is great but keeping Malcolm around is just too problematic. And Ra's initial appearance was a disappointment. The actor just does not have the kind of riveting gravitas that a character such as Ra's al Ghul, the Demon, should exude. Nyssa, the heir to the freaking Demon, is a heck of a whole lot more compelling than him.

[Ceylon5]

What a dumb episode.  I kind of spaced after the whole thing where we discover that Sara had told her father she was in town but to please not tell Laurel, before telling Laurel she was in town, but to please not tell their father.  Huh?  Pointless much?  This whole terribly written "who killed Sara?" plot is a giant waste of everybody's time.  

 

Also really hate Oliver lying to Thea about how he is now telling her the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (though we know she's lying in return, he doesn't, so that doesn't off-set his suckiness one iota).

 

I'm not even going to try to make sense of anything to do with Oliver and Malcolm, because therein lies madness.

 

This is the second week in a row when I've thought Diggle was off - last week he recommended that Oliver continue to lie to Thea and this week he said he'd never understood what Sara had seen in Nyssa (really, Diggle?).

[Ariah]

What is it with Laurel ordering people to kill other people? O seriously don't know if the writers aprove of this behaviour or are they showing her off as unhinged (I vote for unhinged, but I may be biased).

 

Also, the lack of Felicity hurt.

[foreverevolving]

so i figured it out.. Arrow is going through the Sophomore curse in their Junior year. it's not common but happens on occasion. hopefully they'll pull through it and get their head back in the game.

[ostentatious]

I really do not get this Diggle. He has been OOC all season. Did someone notice he's always been the Patron Saint of Good Advice and decide to subvert that to prove that even he can be wrong? Becoming a parent changes you, but not overnight, and not in an advising people to tell lies and murder people way. It's not like MM hurts kids, so...?

Also, am I supposed to feel that Laurel and Waller are a lot alike? They're both demanding he kill people and their tone and approach isn't that different. I can't imagine Laurel having the same lust for creating explosions that result in massive loss of life that Waller has, but the absolute default to kill kill kill and the lack of any sympathy for the emotional well-being of the weapon --

And let me say that I did like the line where Oliver compared himself to a gun, because no baby, you're a bullet. Waller is the gun. Someone far above her is the shooter. And now you've been an arrow, not a bow or the archer, and where you hit depended upon the archer, whether it's symbolically your dad via the book or Laurel first half of season one or Felicity, and I am actually proud of you for resisting and being the archer this time without Felicity there to do that duty. Of course, I do think a lot of his look at the end was thinking about how the answer to her question was "Me behaving in a way I wouldn't be ashamed for you to see."

-- so anyway, Laurel is reminding me strongly of Waller and I *like* it, but because of the history with these prods it is difficult for me to trust that the Laurel I see is the Laurel they think they're showing me. Who she feels like to me has always been so at odds with what the show and various mouthpieces have insisted she is that now that those things seem to be aligning, it's hard to trust.

And while the meta of having characters voice audience complaints about Laurel is nice because it shows they pay attention, it is actually getting to be a bit much. I need them to prove to me that they are no longer pissing on my leg and trying to convince me that it's raining, where Laurel is concerned.

Another mention of Tommy? By Nyssa, no less? Y'all, I am telling you, he is alive, and he killed Sara.

Edited October 30, 2014 by ostentatious

[yellowfred]

So, I am aware, rationally, of the fact that this episode was not that great, but Nyssa's presence is doing a lot to help me ignore that fact.  She completely made this episode for me.  I think her reaction to Sara's death had everything that was missing in "Sara" the episode.  It was subtle, but you could see how clearly gutted she was by the news.  Even when she was focused on the investigation stuff, she still had that undercurrent of grief that made her a bit more of a loose cannon (comparing her behavior in this episode to last season's finale). 

 

I loved how, at the graveyard, she was respectful of Laurel's loss, but also refused to back down about her own right to grieve (I'm sure Laurel intended it on a "you're a member of the League of Assassins" level, but I think Nyssa's response also worked on a "my relationship with her was just as valid and just as important as yours or Oliver's" level, which I really appreciated).  I loved how Oliver was all set up to give her the "we need you to focus" spiel, but she was already well ahead of him.  I also really loved her pulling an Indiana Jones on Roy, because I'm still 12 years old and will never tire of that gag.  I can even get over her bit of Laurel propping at the end, because I read it less as "you are a worthy successor to your sister's legacy" and more as "well, anything could happen."

 

Also, on a side note, "We burried her in her old grave from seven years ago."  Now that Oliver's said that out loud, do you think he realizes how awful it is?

 

I agree with those who've said Oliver shouldn't be protecting Malcolm.  Like, his only defense is that he's not guilty of one specific murder.  Admittedly, it's a pretty significant one, but that still leaves 500+ unanswered for.  If he had said that he wouldn't let the League's vendetta hurt his sister or anyone else in Starling City, that would have made more sense, but it also would have made more sense if he'd at least attempted to capture Malcolm.  I honestly can't decide if the show thinks we would believe that Malcolm killed Sara.  Like, on one hand, everything about the way it was framed in this episode would indicate that he's a distinct possibility.  On the other hand, surely they know that we know that Sara knew the person who killed her (and not in an "I'm expecting you to kill me" kind of way).  

[chaos is welcome]

I will say that the fight scene w nyssa, Oliver and Malcolm was fantastic. Nyssa made the ep enjoyable. Malcolm's trickery in the escape was fun. Nable was terrible for me as Ras, hope that gets better.

Diggle going in to the monestary in his leather jacket while everyone else was costumed was hilarious.

But seriously, my 8 yo wants to know when Laurel is going to stop yelling at everyone. She is literally ruining the show for me. As is Quentin being kept in the dark.

[Al Herkimer]

Malcom Merlin did kill Sarah, when he sank the Queen's Gambit and killed Oliver's father.  It just took seven pain-filled years longer than it might have if she had drowned right away.  She'd be alive, probably normal and happy, if it weren't for him.

[Password]

Diggle going in to the monestary in his leather jacket while everyone else was costumed was hilarious.

Bahaha that also made me laugh. Diggle should at least where a hoody or something. Every villain he's come across could identify him. Felicity too.

[bluemapleleaf]

The ongoing decision to not tell Lance and his ex-wife about their daughter's death is driving me crazy. I just can't believe anyone could do something so cruel. It's the act of not telling I despise, not the person committing the act. If the situation was reversed and Laurel had been killed and Sara was keeping their parents in the dark, I would hate it just as much.

I also rolled my eyes (a lot) when Laurel was going after Nyssa and blaming her and the LoA for Sara's death. It reminded me how thrilled, thrilled I tell you, Laurel was to watch Sara get on the boat and give her that bloody jacket. Did she really think Sara was going to walk away from the League at some point, healthy and safe, to retire and live a quiet life in Tuscany?

[blixie]

 

It was a lot less awful than I was anticipating.  She didn't compliment Laurel on anything she was doing physically which would have been absurd IMO, rather she seemed to admire Laurel for her no holds barred just kill the bastard attitude and I'm not sure if anyone not in the LoA should consider that complimentary.

 

Yeah of all the things I was so glad she wasn't propping Laurel in any kind of specific way other than to encourage her in her KILL KILL instinct. The being reminded of Sara part was gross though.

[Password]

She's not very impressed with Oliver's no kill rule. But then we knew that from the season finale.

Adorable, psycho little thing that she is.

[Latverian Diplomat]

I wish this show would stop making Oliver stupider than he already is for plot reasons. You can't tell me he found a blank piece of paper on Sara's body, and didn't think to put a flame to it, come on.

 

He was skipped class to buy weed the day they did lemon juice invisible ink in 6th grade science. He was still in his spoiled rich kid phase, if you can call someone's entire childhood a phase. Diggle, on the other hand, has no such excuses. :-)

 

I was more surprised that was the best "Ghost Ink" the League could come up with. Seriously, would it have been so hard for Nyssa to bring some special lens or chemical? The note must have been meant for another League member to read if something happened to Sara, So there's no reason Sara needed to carry the "decoder" too. In fact it makes more sense if she doesn't have it. The ink could be only briefly visible when first written, or "keeping track on where you left off on your invisible notepad" could be an assassin skill.

[gazebo]

I'm so mad at Laurel for not telling her father that Sara's dead.  Quentin calling Sara's cell phone and asking her to call him was just heartbreaking.  What does it truly accomplish keeping Quentin in the dark?  Sure, he has heart problems, but if it were so severe, he wouldn't be running the police dept. would he?  I think Quentin can handle the news of Sara's death.  Maybe Laurel just couldn't handle the idea of telling her father what happened.  Anyway, it just makes me so angry and feel so bad for Quentin.

 

Yay!  John Barrowman!  John Barrowman!  Holy shit!  He has such charisma and a powerful presence on this show that he outshines Stephen Amell in this episode.  Barrowman looks like he's having fun as Malcolm.  I do think that Malcolm has nothing to do with Sara's death.  What Malcolm says makes sense.  Why would he piss off Ras Al Ghul even more by killing off Nyssa's girlfriend?  What I don't understand is why Arrow would pledge to protect Malcolm from Ras and his league.  I could only think that Oliver is protecting Malcolm's life because of Tommy.  What a bad idea!  I'm sure Malcolm Merlyn can protect himself very well.

 

Oliver's Hong Kong flashbacks doesn't interest me very much.  All I can think is, at least Oliver's not trapped in that fucking island anymore.  Now he's just trapped in another island, but at least Hong Kong is civilized and Oliver can use the toilet again.

 

Nyssa is cool!  I can see her mentoring Laurel in the future.

 

You know, Oliver said that he no longer wanted to lie to Thea and was going to tell her the truth.  Well, Thea's been back in Starling City long enough for her to buy back Verdant with the help of her "investors" and start setting the place up again; yet Oliver hasn't told her yet that he is the Arrow.  They are dragging this out too long.  There are too many secrets on this show.  It's making me impatient!

 

[Primetimer]

Yet another bow-and-arrow expert stops by Starling City, but this one's on the side of good. Well, and assassinations.

Read the story

[Starfish35]

He was skipped class to buy weed the day they did lemon juice invisible ink in 6th grade science. He was still in his spoiled rich kid phase, if you can call someone's entire childhood a phase. Diggle, on the other hand, has no such excuses. :-)

Except that it's how he found The List in his father's book in season one. :(

Also, let's talk about how Oliver actually has been keeping his souper-seekrit superhero lair IN A BUILDING THAT HE DOESN'T EVEN OWN. GAHHHHH

I had fooled myself into thinking he'd somehow managed to get it back.

Seriously?!? This just kind of blows my mind. I figured for sure he'd gotten it back somehow.

Also, is it just me, or does the fact that Nyssa gave Sara the jacket give the whole jacket passing symbolism thing a whole new level of weirdness?

Does Laurel not have a "normal" mode? I swear all we've seen this year is her so mad or so sad or so anxious that she's always shaking like she a freaking Chihuahua.

I laughed so hard at this. :) Oh the mental imagery!

I'm enjoying following along reading all your comments. It's so much less stressful than actually watching the episode (lol).

Edited October 30, 2014 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

What a dumb episode.  I kind of spaced after the whole thing where we discover that Sara had told her father she was in town but to please not tell Laurel, before telling Laurel she was in town, but to please not tell their father.  Huh?  Pointless much?  This whole terribly written "who killed Sara?" plot is a giant waste of everybody's time.

I hadn't even thought of that but you're right. I guess maybe Sara came to see her dad, although I don't get why since she never mentioned Malcolm, then heard the Arrow teams radio chatter and went to help. After which she went to see her sister. Wait, it still doesn't make sense. Why would she tell everyone she's in town (her dad, Laurel, Oliver) then tell them not to tell anyone? I can understand her hiding WHY she's there, I guess, except even that is arguable since wouldn't she want Oliver to know Starling could still be in danger if Malcolm decides to finish what he started?

   

Also really hate Oliver lying to Thea about how he is now telling her the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (though we know she's lying in return, he doesn't, so that doesn't off-set his suckiness one iota).

Hypocrisy, thy name is Oliver. I'm done lying to you Thea, except of course for the stuff I'm still lying to you about. But I don't hate it. I actually find it amusing that Thea is lying to Oliver just as much as he is to her. It seems fair. Must be a Queen trait.

 

   

I'm not even going to try to make sense of anything to do with Oliver and Malcolm, because therein lies madness.

Oliver pointed out in Heir to the Demon how pissed Ra's would be if something happened to Nyssa. The same obviously doesn't apply to Sara, but how does it not occur to him that Ra's might be a little annoyed by his protecting Malcolm? Really, the whole thing is just a ploy to have Oliver and Malcolm team up against the LoA but it is a ploy I am all for quite frankly. JB is so much fun to watch it's ridiculous. And though I get why Oliver would protect Malcolm to an extent (the no killing thing is his vow but he's trying to keep anyone, good or bad from dying) but it makes no sense for him to let him go. Malcolm was directly responsible for the deaths of 500+ people, including Tommy. Oliver has hunted down and turned in people for a lot less.

 

Also, TELL QUENTIN ALREADY! As many have said before me, there is never going to be a right time or a good time for him to find out his daughter is dead. But by doing it this way, it's going to be so much worse when he does. Not only will he learn Sara is dead, but Laurel has been keeping it from him for days, perhaps weeks, even standing in his office and lying to him.

 

And Ra's. I watched Riddick again before this episode, just to see Matt Nable. I like the guy, but it still didn't click for me. Then we get to the actual episode. The costume looks pretty good but the scruffy beard? Okay, so maybe the iconic facial hair doesn't really work, but Ra's is the kind of guy that has a half dozen people attending to his every need at all times, they don't have razors in Nanda Parbat? Minor thing. And while I guess there is no reason Ra's COULDN'T have an Australian accent, I agree it was rather distracting. Honestly, I'm probably going to have to see him in more of an episode to really make up my mind, but based on what I have seen so far I'm not sure this is going to work for me.

[shrewd.buddha]

Diggle going in to the monestary in his leather jacket while everyone else was costumed was hilarious.

Also, Merlin was monologue-ing in some fancy high-rise office with big windows. Not very discreet for a guy who destroyed a good chunk of Starling City and is supposed to be dead. But, whatever ...

 

When the main characters find out something that we the viewers have known for about six months or so (Merlin's alive) , it doesn't seem all that shocking.

Edited October 30, 2014 by shrewd.buddha

[blixie]

 

Also, is it just me, or does the fact that Nyssa gave Sara the jacket give the whole jacket passing symbolism thing a whole new level of weirdness?

 

Between that and the telling her about steel in fire, I fully expect Laurel to fall in love with Nyssa. Just go full Terry O'Quinn Stepfather. "Wait a MINUTE, *who* am I here?!" RME.

[Chaser]

I saw a gif set of Nyssa using the steel and fire metaphor and Laurel's confused 'What does that mean?' face and I just kept hearing John Campea "and she's stupid. She's really dumb."

[tv echo]

Best Line of the Night
- Nyssa to Laurel:  "That jacket?  I gave it to Sara as a gift.  You're not fit to wear it." (audience cheers)
But then the EPs had to go and spoil it with that ending scene in the boxing gym where Nyssa strongly implies that she's changed her mind and thinks Laurel might be worthy of the jacket after all.  WTF?!  Nice that KC bulked up, but Laurel becoming a boxer does not equal her becoming a trained martial artist/fighter on par with Sara.

 

Second Best Line of the Night
Felicity had part in one of the best lines of the night even though she's absent.
- Oliver: "She [Felicity] told me an idiot could run it."
- Diggle: "I'll try very hard not to take that personally."

 

Felicity's Absence --> Contrived Plot Devices
Felicity's absence from the Arrowcave left a really big hole and led to the use of some pretty contrived plot devices to get the information the team needed.
- How convenient that pics of Malcolm were left behind on a disc by Sara for Oliver and Nyssa to find.
- How convenient that Felicity left an easy-to-use tracking program for Oliver and Diggle to use.
- How convenient that Laurel(!) was able to pull up city surveillance video of the purple smoke so that Oliver could track down where Nyssa was holding Thea.  Incidentally, it seemed Sara spent more time with Oliver last season than she did with Laurel.  So why would Sara tell Laurel about the LOA's old fashioned communication methods and not Oliver?  It just sounds like more retconning to show the close sisterly relationship(!) and to give Laurel more lines.

 

Most Difficult to Believe
- The League of Assassins searched for Malcolm Merlyn all over the globe and couldn't find him on Corto Maltese.
- Sara knew Malcolm was alive and didn't tell Oliver or her father in "The Calm" episode.

 

Laurel's Personality Whiplash... Again
- Kill, kill, kill Malcolm Merlyn! (hostile and angry)
- "It's my fault, Oliver.  I know you're not a killer." (subdued and cooperative)
I swear, every time Laurel opened her mouth to speak in this episode, I just wanted someone to say "shut up, Laurel".  Incidentally, she was wearing her lawyer suit so presumably she's been working as an ADA again, prosecuting criminals for breaking the law.  At the same time, she's urging Oliver and Nyssa to kill Malcolm, a suspect in Sara's murder, without evidence or any due process of law.  Malcolm may be innocent of Sara's murder and, while he is guilty of causing the deaths of 500 people in the Glades, he's still entitled to his day in court to present mitigating factors that could spare him the death penalty.  I'm surprised Laurel doesn't choke on her own hypocrisy, considering she's a sworn officer of the court and her day job.  In the past 2+ years, there should've been at least one moment shown of Laurel showing some mental or emotional struggle before she crosses the line - but no, she's just been shown ignoring or breaking the law, violating her lawyer obligations, and abusing her power whenever it suited her, with no signs of conscience or remorse.

 

Thea, Thea, Thea
- I'm still not sure why Thea is still lying to Oliver and protecting Malcolm, a mass murderer.  Her only motive seems to be self-interest -- Malcolm is the one keeping her safe and presumably supplying her with the money to buy the foundry and Verdant.  Incidentally, last season, we had to handwave the fact that Thea, an 18-year-old with no work experience and no business experience, could successfully run a nightclub.  This season, I guess we're supposed to continue handwaving that, plus her ownership of Verdant due to the generosity of "investors". 
- I was really starting to like the new Thea, but now I'm starting to dislike her again because her motivation just seems purely selfish.  I don't even care anymore that Oliver is still lying to Thea because I no longer trust Thea - and Oliver shouldn't either.
- I am curious as to why Thea didn't attempt to use her new fighting skills to get away from Nyssa when Nyssa kidnapped her.

 

Oliver, the Dummy
I hate how the EPs have dumbed down Oliver even more this season in order to support the story arcs (and other characters?).
- He believes without question that investors are willing to fund the ownership and management of a nightclub by a teenager.  And if Thea owns Verdant, she'll inevitably discover the Arrowcave, so why hasn't Oliver moved it?
- His failure to know the blank piece of paper had invisible writing just seemed out of character (considering his father's book) and just a way to give that role to Nyssa.
- Even knowing Nyssa's ruthlessness, he readily tells her that Thea is Malcolm's daughter.  He then tells Laurel that Thea is Malcolm's daughter.  Moira kept this big secret for so many years, while Oliver is just telling people left and right - he might as well take out an ad in the Starling City Times.
- He rejects a relationship with Felicity because he feels he can't be both Oliver and the Arrow.  Yet he apparently has no problem being Oliver with his sister Thea.
- He's now protecting Malcolm Merlyn, thereby endangering not just his team but the whole city.  Why?  Just because Malcolm is Thea's father?  Or because Oliver doesn't like the League telling him what to do?
- Incidentally, this episode made a big deal out of his new "no kill" rule.  But didn't he kill the new Count Vertigo with arrows?

 

ARGUS... or AARGH!
Amanda Waller's murderous and evil actions have me wondering if ARGUS was also infiltrated by HYDRA.  (Oops!  Crossed DC and Marvel comic universes!)

 

Ra's al Ghul Debuts
Matt Nable's first appearance as Ra's was a bit... underwhelming.  I was mostly surprised by how much he looks like Don Swayze (Patrick Swayze's less talented acting brother).  So points deducted right there.

Edited October 30, 2014 by tv echo

[Pyramid]

So pretty much everything I want to say has been said.

I'll add to the cries of "Just fucking tell your father that his daughter is dead, you evil, selfish, thoughtless, shit-gibbon."

I can buy Oliver not killing Malcolm, but Diggle was right, don't kill, but don't do anything if someone else is going to. And what the hell are you doing saying he's under your protection!? 

Not knowing the blank piece of paper had a hidden message just made them look so thick it just kicked me out of the story.

Nyssa is awesome. Pity there was no Nyssa/Felicity interaction.

Would they please shut. The. Fuck. Up about that fucking jacket. I think the reason Laurel thinks it's magical because the writers do.

I hate, absolutely hate Laurel in the Arrowcave. Hate it. And her barking orders at whoever is standing in front of her makes her less likelable every episode, if that was possible. And that was an al Ghul yout were shouting orders at you idiot. And in the name of Christ would you blink at least once per episode.

I'm still really liking Thea's story at the moment. Think it's fun watching her and Oliver lying through their teeth to each other, while feeding crumbs of truth at the same time. Can't wait for that to blow up in their faces.

On the whole it's was a pretty meh episode for me.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Pyramid

[dtissagirl]

Would they please shut. The. Fuck. Up about that fucking jacket. I think the reason Laurel thinks it's magical because the writers do.

 

THIS. It's been three episodes in a row that the Magic Jacket has had more writing devoted to it than people actually in the main cast.

[chaos is welcome]

Oliver didn't kill vertigo 2.0, he wrapped him up in a trick arrow.

But yeah, the way Oliver was dummied down is annoying. They are inconsistently writing everyone at this point. Makes me scared for 5

Edited October 30, 2014 by chaos is welcome

[formerlyfreedom]

We've had some reports on tone on some posts in here. We've reviewed them, and just wanted to give you all a reminder that all opinions are allowed here. We do ask that you respect your fellow posters and the difference of opinions. Attacks on fellow posters are not allowed, but disagreeing is, as long as it remains polite and civil!

 

Carry on!

[steelyis]

I also rolled my eyes (a lot) when Laurel was going after Nyssa and blaming her and the LoA for Sara's death. It reminded me how thrilled, thrilled I tell you, Laurel was to watch Sara get on the boat and give her that bloody jacket. Did she really think Sara was going to walk away from the League at some point, healthy and safe, to retire and live a quiet life in Tuscany?

 

Exactly! Laurel looked positively stoked Sara was returning to the LOA, and now we're supposed to believe Laurel's been holding a grudge all this time? Please.

Edited October 30, 2014 by steelyis

[Princess Vanellope]

So pretty much everything I want to say has been said.

I'll add to the cries of "Just fucking tell your father that his daughter is dead, you evil, selfish, thoughtless, shit-gibbon."

I can buy Oliver not killing Malcolm, but Diggle was right, don't kill, but don't do anything if someone else is going to. And what the hell are you doing saying he's under your protection!? 

Not knowing the blank piece of paper had a hidden message just made them look so thick it just kicked me out of the story.

Nyssa is awesome. Pity there was no Nyssa/Felicity interaction.

Would they please shut. The. Fuck. Up about that fucking jacket. I think the reason Laurel thinks it's magical because the writers do.

I hate, absolutely hate Laurel in the Arrowcave. Hate it. And her barking orders at whoever is standing in front of her makes her less likelable every episode, if that was possible. And that was an al Ghul yout were shouting orders at you idiot. And in the name of Christ would you blink at least once per episode.

I'm still really liking Thea's story at the moment. Think it's fun watching her and Oliver lying through their teeth to each other, while feeding crumbs of truth at the same time. Can't wait for that to blow up in their faces.

On the whole it's was a pretty meh episode for me.

This whole thing had me roflmao! So thank you, after last night's episode it was much needed!

[Angel12d]

I still think Amanda Waller is involved in Sara's murder somehow. Maybe she's the one pulling all the strings to catch Ra's al Ghul or something. I don't know. I'm still figuring it out.

 

Other than that I don't really have much to say about this episode right now except Nyssa saved it. She's awesome. Love her.

[Shanna]

Also, am I supposed to feel that Laurel and Waller are a lot alike? They're both demanding he kill people and their tone and approach isn't that different. I can't imagine Laurel having the same lust for creating explosions that result in massive loss of life that Waller has, but the absolute default to kill kill kill and the lack of any sympathy for the emotional well-being of the weapon --

...

-- so anyway, Laurel is reminding me strongly of Waller and I *like* it, but because of the history with these prods it is difficult for me to trust that the Laurel I see is the Laurel they think they're showing me. Who she feels like to me has always been so at odds with what the show and various mouthpieces have insisted she is that now that those things seem to be aligning, it's hard to trust.

Another mention of Tommy? By Nyssa, no less? Y'all, I am telling you, he is alive, and he killed Sara.

I love your contrast of Waller and laurel directing Oliver to kill in this episode. I hadn't thought about it because like you I am not sure what we are supposed to be thinking of laurel anymore. I would love to believe this is on purpose and we are supposed to be putting her in the evil or mostly so column right now but I can't quite believe it. They shouldn't have killed Sara- then they could move laurel into some sort of evil or vaguely so place, where I think her limited acting range is more suited.

But even that can't help some of her line readings, particularly in that boxing scene with Nyssa. I wish I could remember what she said because it was so flat and there was no expression on her face at all. It was so so bad.

And don't get my hopes up on tommy!! Multiple mentions plus his appearance in Hong Kong do make you wonder. I can not see him killing Sara though without some bonkers explanation.

Eta, it would have made so much more sense for drama between Oliver and the league to be about protecting his sister. I actually expected him to be madder at Nyssa about that. And I totally forgot she didn't know about the arrow in those end scenes because she was talking about being saved and not giving Oliver credit. She knows, doesn't she? I can't remember if Malcolm spilled the beans last year. I see all of their conversations as a test of Oliver's truthfulness.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Shanna

[wonderwall]

To be fair, Laurel would be near invisible if she wasn't barking orders in the arrow cave. She barely has anything to offer which is why she probably overcompensates by barking orders and making herself seen or heard which imo is pathetic. 

[KirkB]

I don't think Tommy being mentioned really means that much. His name has been brought up off and on since he died. Laurel and Oliver still obviously miss him, and it stand to reason anything involving Malcolm is going to bring up recollections of his son.

Edited October 30, 2014 by KirkB

[Lyndy]

Sorry. Going to have to disagree with lots of y'all in here. I really, really hate Nyssa. Some painfully bad acting there and I really think she outlived her usefulness ages ago. Also, do we really need yet another archer? Answer: No. Please dispatch this chick. Can't STAND her. But then take this with a grain of salt because I never liked Sarah either.

 

Feeling a bit bad for Katie Cassidy to be honest. It seems like they set up the personal dynamics with Laurel taking a central role and then discovered Felicity was a much more interesting character. Now they've still got Laurel but what do they do with her? She's not the love interest anymore. She doesn't believably serve a purpose on the Arrow team. It feels like they're keeping her out of obligation to Katie. Katie Cassidy has been really sassy and fun in other roles she's played. I think she could be having so much more fun somewhere else. Send her to The Vampire Diaries or The Originals to mess with some vampires. 

 

This episode was a bit of a mess. Happy to see the return of Malcolm but all of the extra characters -- Sarah, Nyssa, Laurel -- are just getting in my way. There's enough drama without all of that crap. Starting to wish they'd just transport Felicity to Central City to hang out with The Flash because she's kind of the only reason I'm hanging on at this point. Okay, not the only reason. Stephen Amell is pretty dreamy.

[wingster55]

I don't think Tommy being mentioned really means that much. His name has been brought up off and on since he died. Laurel and Oliver still obviously miss him, and it stand to reason anything involving Malcolm is going to bring up recollections of his son.

 

In s2 it was very intermittment if I remember right. Premiere, Three Ghosts, Tremors, ...whatever ep Laurel had the flashback where she found about the Queen's Gambit.

[XtremeOne1]

I don't think Tommy being mentioned has anything to do with Meryln NOT being the killer. But given that we're dealing with Ras Ah Ghol and the lazarus pit, I wouldn't be shocked if we learn Tommy is alive and well(and EEVVVVIILLL)

 

Being around Laurel makes Oliver stupid.  They've always been 100% consistent with that.

    Malcolm Merlyn was all over the news as a rich guy even before he tried to blow up the city and killed 500 people.  It doesn't make sense that he could hide in plain sight.

    The longer she doesn't tell him, the more it's going to hurt him. It's been three? weeks now, she's going to have to tell him sometime because she can't keep lying to him forever.

    Speaking as a parent and a daughter whose parents have been far more ill than Quentin, it's the wrong thing to do, and at this point, it's bone-headed.. 

 

The first two episodes happened within two days of each other and episode 3 and 4 happened back to back. So it hasn't been three to four weeks. It's been under two weeks(Sarah arrived two weeks ago, tailed Merilyn for a few days and than must have saved Ollie and gone to Laurel). So while it's been four episodes and four weeks, it probably hasn't even been nine days since Sarah died.

Edited October 30, 2014 by XtremeOne1

[TwistedandBored]

I was soo excited to see a glimpse of Ra's Al Ghul and ended up being disappointed. Soo not what imagine Ra's would look and sound like. Since we are stuck with this actor, I hope he is much better in coming episodes. 

[slayer2]

Wow. That episode was super not good. Is no one allowed to be friends on this show? It reminded me of Angel Season 5 when everyone is just fighting the good fight alongside each other but there's no love left. Which is kind of what it's been like for me since the premiere episode this season.

The only people I identified with that whole episode were the Merlyns. They were the only ones I was invested in, Nyssa's heartache didn't really seem like heartache which was similar to Ollie,Diggle, Laurel and Felicity in earlier episodes. Nobody is selling the fact that Sara is dead for me, probably the one actor that would really nail it had a character that isn't allowed to know about it.

Geez I don't know man, it's like Arrow is missing all the emotional beats this season. It's like they took the heart and gave it to The Flash. There's just no love or emotional investment here. I was really looking forward to Laurel's arc but they are ruining it. All she's doing is getting angry and hitting things. There is so much to mine in terms of Sara's death with Laurel's development an opportunity to make her softer yet tougher yet stronger and they are blowing it. They promised me a better storyline for her and she only appears less relatable, vacant and moody kind of like Oliver is now.

I don't feel investment from KC or SA or the actor who plays Diggle. I'm pretty much only getting feels from the Merlyns and Roy.

What is going on here show? What have you become when my biggest investment is a character I hated last year?! Pull up your socks, there's room for everybody. Stop writing characters into corners and lay off the Supernatural season 5 arc because if it gets any darker I won't be able to see the damn screen! Gah!!!

The real magician is whoever made this show so torturous to watch and enough with the flashbacks! Unless it's Thea or Sara I don't care!! Grrrr Arrrggh

Edited October 30, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

 

I don't feel investment from KC or SA or the actor who plays Diggle. I'm pretty much only getting feels from the Merlyns and Roy.

 

I don't really understand this notion that SA and DR are not invested. I just 100% disagree.

 

What I think is problematic is the shoehorning of Laurel into ERRYTHING.  It's screwed with the dynamics of the Arrowcave and how every one relates to everyone else and resulted in a character that did blend seamlessly (IMO) with everyone else being killed off to make it happen.

Edited October 30, 2014 by catrox14

[Moya the Leviathan]

 I fully expect Laurel to fall in love with Nyssa. 

Sister-swapping? Again?  I don't need the show to take the high road. Really, the next-to-lowest road should be enough to say goodbye to that stunt.

 

 

ARGUS... or AARGH!

Amanda Waller's murderous and evil actions have me wondering if ARGUS was also infiltrated by HYDRA.  (Oops!  Crossed DC and Marvel comic universes!)

Important safety tip:  crossing the streams and opening up portals between parallel dimensions and/or multiverses are bad.

[Angel12d]

I have a few questions about continuity/characters:

 

1. How/why did Oliver not think to check the random blank piece of paper for invisible ink? I find it so hard to believe he'd not even consider that an option, even if it turned out to be nothing but a blank piece of paper.

 

2. Did they always have the surveillance photographs of Malcolm or were they found in Sara's hideout? Oliver looked shocked to learn that Malcolm was alive but then suddenly he's saying they had pictures of him? Huh?!

 

3. How come Laurel doesn't know how to ping someone's GPS but is suddenly adept at bringing up security camera footage?

 

4. Will Thea just never go into the basement at the club she owns? On that note, how has Oliver been using the lair in a building he hasn't officially owned for over five months? It's like he's wanting to get caught. Also, doesn't everyone have to walk through the club to get to the basement entrance? It's like the worst secret lair I've ever seen in my life.

 

5. Why does everyone on this show think the black jacket is magical? Clearly it is not otherwise Sara would not be dead. If anything that jacket is cursed. JFC.

[Shanna]

I am so confused. Are they really still using the club secret lair? I thought Oliver found another place at the end of last season.

I can't see that working with Thea there.

[slayer2]

I don't really understand this notion that SA and DR are not invested. I just 100% disagree.

What I think is problematic is the shoehorning of Laurel into ERRYTHING. It's screwed with the dynamics of the Arrowcave and how every one relates to everyone else and resulted in a character that did blend seamlessly (IMO) with everyone else being killed off to make it happen.

That's fine. Agree to disagree. To me the three of them seem bored. I don't feel anything when I watch SA, KC or DC go through the motions and no I don't think all the problems on the show are KC's fault. Right now I do think she's part of the problem but so are the writers and the other actors that I don't think are selling this story. Granted the story is kind of a fail but no one on Team Arrow is selling the sorrow IMO, except maybe Roy.

[writersblock51]

Finally watched much of the episode. I had a trigger finger on the FF button so I admittedly missed some Laurel scenes. 

 

I don't have much to add from what tv echo, Angel12d and many others have posted.

 

A few things that stood out for me:

 

- I suspect Thea knows that Oliver is the Arrow - her comment to Roy about his working with him while she was gone seemed to have helped him get some cool moves... whether Malcolm told her or not, I think Roy showing up with Oliver may also trigger something for her to be suspicious about.  OR - Malcolm told her, off screen

- Waller sets up an elaborate plan involving an island, mercenaries and a passenger flight JUST to kill 1 person (and what if China White had decided, last minute, to change her plans?) but she can't find Ra's?  really? 

- Anything Laurel said and did could have been done by other people. Her involvement in the lair is just propping her up, plain and simple

- I thought Nyssa was terrific - and I think she's suspicious of her father being involved with Sara's death. She might not have given Malcolm's words a thought until Ra's himself was so dismissive of Sara

- Laurel is still with the DA's office, right? Why isn't she working - she's the only one out of everyone but Quentin who seems to have a full time job.  She should be doing it instead of being utterly useless in the lair

- The writers need to figure out what the heck Laurel is ticked about, who she's blaming and STICK WITH IT.  Because her waffling is absolutely annoying and destroys her credibility

- who was that impersonating Diggle in the lair?  Because he seemed so very un-Diggle like

 

and finally. Quentin.  If I didn't dislike Laurel with the heat of a million suns before last night's episode, I certainly do now.  Her reasoning is complete BS and the show is stupidly making this worse for her character.  Bottom line - if he's healthy enough to keep his job as Police captain, he can be told the news about his youngest daughter.  Wanna lie about some details? Fine.  He'll figure it all out in due time anyway.  He's a COP.  It's mind boggling that there's any justification for keeping the news from him or Dinah at this point.

 

Huh... I got to the end and realized that Ra's didn't make an impression on me.  Good or bad. That can't be promising...

[apinknightmare]

I am so confused. Are they really still using the club secret lair? I thought Oliver found another place at the end of last season.

I can't see that working with Thea there.

 

Yes, they're using the basement of the club that Oliver doesn't own, which several people (both friendly and unfriendly) know about as their base of operations. Oliver did have a secondary facility in case the foundry was compromised, but his definition of compromised must be different from, well, the actual definition of compromised. Kind of like his definition of dead.

[insubordination]

 

It just sounds like more retconning to show the close sisterly relationship(!)

 

where Nyssa strongly implies that she's changed her mind and thinks Laurel might be worthy of the jacket after all.  WTF?!

 

I'm pretty sure at some point we're going to get flashbacks (flashadds) of Sara and Laurel's sweet sisterly relationship or perhaps a visit from Sara's ghost where she encourages Laurel to be BC.

 

 

Granted the story is kind of a fail but no one on Team Arrow is selling the sorrow IMO, except maybe Roy.

 

I think that's because it's an obviously plot device with no real meaning. Even fan fiction has way more subtlety than these writers.  Sara's death came too soon after Moira's death IMO.  Although there was a hiatus, the murders are only a few episodes apart. Sara's death was too abrupt with no lead up. She said a few lines and hit a dumpster.  I know death can be quick and sudden, but it seems like that just wanted to get it done and move on with minimal screentime.  The practically non-existent mourning is a symptom of that, plus they pointed out that Oliver is numb enough times.

 

I don't even feel Sara's dead. It's more like, 'they had to write out CL to give KC something else to do." Very lazy stuff.

 

Last season was such a downer, and this season has echoed that. The lighter moments in ep 1 didn't really seem to work for me for some reason. I just want them to defeat evil and then smile and pat each other on the back without killing female cast members on the way.

Edited October 31, 2014 by insubordination

[writersblock51]

 

I'm pretty sure at some point we're going to get flashbacks (flashadds) of Sara and Laurel's sweet sisterly relationship or perhaps a visit from Sara's ghost where she encourages Laurel to be BC.

If this happens, I'm going to set up camp in the bitterness thread.  There is absolutely nothing in the past 2 years of episodes that would back up their relationship as sweet & sisterly.

[JenMcSnark]

- Incidentally, this episode made a big deal out of his new "no kill" rule.  But didn't he kill the new Count Vertigo with arrows?

 

I'm pretty sure the premiere actually was a parallel/alternate universe.  Unfortunately.

[wonderwall]

I have a legitimate question here... 

 

Last week Laurel didn't even know what pinging a GPS device was (I believe she told Felicity to google a man's phone)... but this week she can hack into a surveillance feed?

 

Please tell me you all see what's wrong with the picture here.