S01.E06: Spirit Of The Goat

[dialyn]

I'm having the opposite reaction. My now mine is "ALRIGHT ALREADY! We get it! This guy/girl is going to be the Riddler/Penguin/Catwoman/whatever, you don't need to point it out constantly every single episode!"

 

Seriously, it's like they can't have Oswald or Nygma or any other character that's supposed to become an iconic villain in a scene without having to point out that they're supposed to be that villain in the most blatantly obvious way possible in most each one of those scenes, Nygma is easily the worst about this. I find it rather annoying that each one of these characters exists solely to provide these references rather than act anything remotely like people with motivations and purposes beyond that.

I guess I amuse easily.  I figured these little side winks were for those of us who may not be devoted to the Batman saga and need a little guidepost as to whom everyone is.  The hardcore fan won't need it.  I guess I didn't think it was worth getting upset about.  Apparently I was wrong.  Not for the first time. But I'm still amused.

[RealityGal]

I guess I amuse easily.  I figured these little side winks were for those of us who may not be devoted to the Batman saga and need a little guidepost as to whom everyone is.  The hardcore fan won't need it.  I guess I didn't think it was worth getting upset about.  Apparently I was wrong.  Not for the first time. But I'm still amused.

I don't mind the mug with the question mark, or any of the signposts.  The characters that are going to be villians are going to have a lot of strong quirks, if they were perfectly normal people they probably wouldn't become villians.  I'm not sure how else the characters should act, and as time has gone by they have integrated them more into the show.  I also think Nygma is so very adorable, its hard for me to hate him too much.  I'm left to wonder what the tipping point is going to be for each of them to turn them into the villian/character they become.

[Shanna]

I normally hate that character type in police shows too, but in this case I think she's being reasonable. She's not asking for Jim to open up about the case of the week and tell her how his day is going. She knows he's being investigated for murder, she believes he didn't do it, but she also knows that Montoya seems to believe she has a smoking gun. It's reasonable for her to ask Jim what's going on. And Jim isn't really protecting her by clamming up. How is telling her, "I was forced to kill Cobblepot or else I would be killed myself but I faked his death" supposed to put her in any more danger than she already is?

This is where I am as well. I usually hate this type of story and I certainly wouldn't want it to drag on too long, but I am ok with how it's gone so far. I do think she hurt her cause calling the paper though so I can see Jim's point.

[RealityGal]

This is where I am as well. I usually hate this type of story and I certainly wouldn't want it to drag on too long, but I am ok with how it's gone so far. I do think she hurt her cause calling the paper though so I can see Jim's point.

and with her close relationship to Montoya.  I can't remember at what point she told him Montoya had come over, but I don't remember her sharing every single thing Montoya said to her.  If she is okay calling a newspaper just to help a case along, I can understand him thinking she will go to Montoya with everything he has told her in an effort to clear his name.

 

My feeling is that knowing everything she wants to know is going to put her in a bad situation at some point.

[MDKNIGHT]

Although, an aside, I don't know how MCU would rely solely the word of a seemingly demented transient, but I let it go because they needed to speed things up. I think the big thing about for me and the MCU is that I'm hoping they're in alliance with Carmine Falcone or Fish or Salvatore Maroni or the Mayor or someone (or maybe do a heel-face turn now that they realize Gordon isn't as bad as they thought he was), because as far as I'm concerned, the show has done far too little for me to care about their existence. They seem like one-dimensional "bad guys" whose only role is to be a thorn in Gordon's side, when really they should be more sympathetic since they do have a noble cause.

 

I think we are to surmise that MCU while well intentioned is so beat down with corruption that they strong arm people. My guess is they were going to parlay ID by Homeless Guy into an excuse to arrest and then brow beat (or actually beat) a confession out of Gordon and Bullock. They would think they were doing the right thing in the face of the mountain of corruption in front of them. In a way they are a little like vigilante Batman and being counter to Boyscout Gordon who is more like Superman. Superman frequently did not approve of Batman from what I've heard. While I know she was coming down hard on Gordon I do think Montoya thought she was doing the right thing and I feel sorry for her that this screw up is going to make it harder for her to clean up the police force. Although somebody brought up a good point. Where IS Internal Affairs? Is THAT totally corrupt?

Edited October 29, 2014 by Lisin
fixed quotes

[Kromm]

I'm having the opposite reaction. My now mine is "ALRIGHT ALREADY! We get it! This guy/girl is going to be the Riddler/Penguin/Catwoman/whatever, you don't need to point it out constantly every single episode!"

Interestingly, I think they're doing the best job with Selina.  I mean the way she's dressed has been constant and so close to the adult Catwoman minus her well... showing her boobs... that I think they've felt comfortable going a bit lighter on other heavy-handed references.  Yes, she moves like a junior version of Catwoman too, and she's already a crook, and all, but it's not like they're really sign-posting a transformation that's going to happen later.  Because it basically already HAS happened.  So it's less of a stupid tease and more of an actual character.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Kromm

[Florinaldo]

A very good episode, with the right balance between the straight police investigation plot and some basic building blocks of the Batman universe. I think they were right in pulling back on the introduction of younger versions of the Rogue Gallery; Junior Mr. Freeze or playground Clayface can wait. They have established a core cast of classic characters like Oswald, Nygma and Gordon, and that is more than enough to play with (including the nicely dosed little side signposts to their future identities), along with the characters original to the show.

 

Fish was not around this week, which I think made the show more grounded in the dark tone specific to Gotham the city; she is so much of a cliché and a caricature that she, and the operetta dons, pull the show more towards animation in tone.

 

When Gordon got arrested, I cringed thinking how long they would drag this storyline before someone discovers that Cobblepot is alive; and then lo and behold, Oswald makes one of his now trademark dramatic entrances, which will probably blow the lids on some of the simmering conflicts, both in the police department and between the crime families. He really is a grand catalyst for trouble and Gothamites should fasten their seatbelts because it probably will be a bumpy ride.

 

I hope they include a scene where someone tells Montoya she was blinded by jealousy of who is now with her ex-girlfriend, which contributed to botching the investigation; who decides a cop is guilty based on the testimony of a single eccentric homeless wharf person? Don't they have sources, as competent cops should, that could have told them Oswald has been spotted in town (it's not like he is really hiding)?

 

Carol Kane has few rivals in bringing the quirky creepiness.

 

I appreciated that a TV show did not buy into the frequent myth that hypnotism can make people do things they do not want to and actually stated it in dialogue.

 

I felt for Alfred when Bruce said "who would they take me from?"

That tug at the heartstrings, especially after the two of them seemed to get closer last episode and to find some common ground, which pleased Bruce judging from his big smile. But I thought that was an intelligent touch on the part of the show; they may write Bruce as a singularly bright kid, but they did not forget he is still a kid, which means he can be callous and thoughtless without realising he is hurting someone close to him by a casual remark.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Florinaldo

[Kromm]

I hope they include a scene where someone tells Montoya she was blinded by jealousy of who is now with her ex-girlfriend, which contributed to botching the investigation; who decides a cop is guilty based on the testimony of a single eccentric homeless wharf person? Don't they have sources, as competent cops should, that could have told them Oswald has been spotted in town (it's not like he is really hiding)?

They can go several ways with this.

 

1.) The entire MCU is humiliated by the unfounded arrest.  Essen clearly would be the one to crucify them on this.

2.) The MCU hangs Montoya (and to only a slightly lesser extent Allen) out to dry.

3.) They dodge the false arrest totally in the writing and have Gordon still in trouble (saying he should have gone to his superiors).  How Harvey's role in this is explained... I don't know.   Really this also depends on if the actual scene on the pier is explained to the other cops, or if Oswald, Harvey and Jim deny ANY of it happened.

4.) The show totally skips the idea of anyone being in trouble and leaps right to Gordon cooperating with the MCU.

 

How they proceed depends a lot on which of these they run with, and certainly determines if Montoya gets a stern talking to, if she's even more determined to go after Gordon, if she still even has a job, etc.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know I wasn't supposed to but I laughed at when the shrink got shot in the ankle and she flailed in pain. And the last 30 seconds with Oswald's "Hiiiiii" and Gordon/Bullock getting ready to rumble.

Ha, I laughed at both of those too. I actually thought she got shot in the ass.

Did I imagine it or did her actually smell her hair when she went by him that first time?

Yup, he definitely sniffed her hair. I was laughing and cringing because my old coworker used to do that to me as a joke. But poor Christina! First he sniffs her then he reorganizes her files. Dick!

[Camera One]

This was a good episode for Harvey.  It was a welcomed change to see him so involved in a case.  The scenes at the senior home with Gordon's face when Harvey's old partner described him as a white knight was awesome.  Still, though, I don't know if it was necessary to have Young Harvey be Gordon, albeit more impulsive and hotheaded.  

 

I actually didn't find the Oswald bath scenes to be all that disturbing.  I'm not sure what the point was, but it seemed like they were trying too hard to be weird so they didn't have any impact on me.

 

I want to like Barbara and Montoya as characters, but they are really dropping the ball on these two.  They have basically said the exact same things every episode they've appeared.  

 

The Riddler scenes didn't really seem to mesh with the rest of the episode, and felt pointless.  I do want to see more of him but his scenes need to be at lsat somewhat integrated into the main narrative.  The Catwoman scenes were even more pointless.  

 

I think the Bruce/Alfred scene was one which was short and sweet but had impact while reminding us of their ongoing investigation.

 

I didn't appreciate the creepy murders, but at least they saved one of the to-be victims.  I loved how Harvey shot that evil psychiatrist in the leg.  Nice payoff.

 

I'm glad the whole Oswald-shooting is out in the open, though I'm not sure where they will go with this.  I'm still appreciating the leisurely pace while also moving the plot along or deepening the mystery each episode.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Camera One

[rho]

 

I liked Nygma having a mug with a big question mark on it. Yes, I know that's pretty obvious, but I do like the way they tuck in the transforming parts of identities.

 

I'm having the opposite reaction. My now mine is "ALRIGHT ALREADY! We get it! This guy/girl is going to be the Riddler/Penguin/Catwoman/whatever, you don't need to point it out constantly every single episode!"

 

Seriously, it's like they can't have Oswald or Nygma or any other character that's supposed to become an iconic villain in a scene without having to point out that they're supposed to be that villain in the most blatantly obvious way possible in most each one of those scenes, Nygma is easily the worst about this. I find it rather annoying that each one of these characters exists solely to provide these references rather than act anything remotely like people with motivations and purposes beyond that.

 

I think these quirks make sense in the scope of the show. We're watching a prequel and those elements of their past allude to who they will become. Yeah, sometimes we're hit over the head with them because we know that's the endgame but if we were in the dark about where these characters were headed, it would be cool to go back and see the villains forming.

 

On the flip side, I'm not a fan of Bruce's characterization. This kid is supposed to become a human weapon that masquerades as a billionaire charmer by day. So far, he has shown none of Batman's characteristics. Not to sound like a playground bully but Bruce is a nerd.

[immortalfrieza]

I think these quirks make sense in the scope of the show. We're watching a prequel and those elements of their past allude to who they will become. Yeah, sometimes we're hit over the head with them because we know that's the endgame but if we were in the dark about where these characters were headed, it would be cool to go back and see the villains forming.

I wouldn't mind the writers referencing that each of these people are going to be Gotham's future villains if it wasn't for their complete lack of subtlety about it. They couldn't possibly be more obvious about who these characters are going to become and they're treating them all like caricatures rather than as fairly normal people that gradually turned to crime and/or went insane like they should doing. That would make for much more compelling characters than what we have so far.

 

Even if somehow anyone watching this show were in the dark about who these characters are supposed to become they all have flashing neon signs saying "THIS GUY/GIRL IS GOING TO BE A VILLAIN!!!" pointed at them that make just that obvious.

 

On the flip side, I'm not a fan of Bruce's characterization. This kid is supposed to become a human weapon that masquerades as a billionaire charmer by day. So far, he has shown none of Batman's characteristics. Not to sound like a playground bully but Bruce is a nerd.

Having Bruce be nerdy is pretty intentional I think. I think at this point they're going with the idea that Bruce is currently developing the master detective side of Batman, the gruff dark demeanor and the kickass martial arts skill coming much later. Personally I don't want to see Batman in a kid's body, I want to see him grow into that, just as I want to see the same with Batman's future Rogue's Gallery.

Edited October 29, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[Kromm]

I wouldn't mind the writers referencing that each of these people are going to be Gotham's future villains if it wasn't for their complete lack of subtlety about it. They couldn't possibly be more obvious about who these characters are going to become and they're treating them all like caricatures rather than as fairly normal people that gradually turned to crime and/or went insane like they should doing. That would make for much more compelling characters than what we have so far.

 

Even if somehow anyone watching this show were in the dark about who these characters are supposed to become they all have flashing neon signs saying "THIS GUY/GIRL IS GOING TO BE A VILLAIN!!!" pointed at them that make just that obvious.

Having Bruce be nerdy is pretty intentional I think. I think at this point they're going with the idea that Bruce is currently developing the master detective side of Batman, the gruff dark demeanor and the kickass martial arts skill coming much later. Personally I don't want to see Batman in a kid's body, I want to see him grow into that, just as I want to see the same with Batman's future Rogue's Gallery.

Yeah, honestly Bruce Wayne is a nerd in every decent version of him.  The Mr. Suave stuff is an act.  The physical stuff is him applying his nerdom to the physical arena.

[Snookums]

One thing I appreciate about this show is that it doesn't stretch things out.

 

 

Me too. I was expecting a big arc about whether or not Penguin reveals himself to save Jim and put a target on his own back to drag out for at least three episodes and then "Hello!"

 

I do like the Vigilante Villain of the Week thing they've got going because it underlines the main theme of Batman--there are tons of people out there who are already sick of the corruption, filth and lies and are taking matters into their own twisted hands years before Batman arrives on the scene. Batman doesn't show up cold--he's the flip side of these opening acts. But because he's got Gordon and Alfred he's not going the "poison/hypnotize/tie to a balloon" "????" "EVERYTHING IS BETTER" route. 

 

Poor Alfred. You could hear the arrows hitting him in the back at Bruce's line.

[Ubiquitous]

Did I imagine it or did her actually smell her hair when she went by him that first time?

Yes, that's exactly what Nygma did.

 

The stuff with Bruce and Alfred, was just a filler, until Selina showed up to steal whatever that was.

I think it was a diary -- Bruce's?

 

On another subject entirely:  The Cobblepot household bathtub scene?  VERY disturbing.  Yes, I know they totally meant it to be.

I was anxious about how far they were going to go with that scene. I was half-expecting her hand to go into the water at some point.

 

At the end I was expecting the therapist to say something akin to "you are totally right, but you don't have a single shred of actual physical evidence to prove any of it" and then just walk away, but of course instead she has to sic that old guy on him and run thus giving Harvey just cause to arrest her. The most Harvey could do was ask the therapist to come down to the station for questioning unless he was smart enough to wear a wire, which he wasn't.

That would have been an interesting twist.

[Snookums]

Did I imagine it or did her actually smell her hair when she went by him that first time?

Yes, that's exactly what Nygma did.

 

 

What I liked about that scene, and that gesture in particular, is that the show is highlighting the fact that Ed Nygma is a creep. He's not sweet, he's not misunderstood, he's not pushed into a life of crime because a girl wouldn't date him. He's a weirdo and Kristen is 100% right to order him out of her sight and workplace.

 

I am so tired of the "lonely little guy turned bad by the uncaring world and most especially by that coldhearted wench who wouldn't give him a chance" trope. One, it's tired, and two, most importantly, it lays the blame for the guy's future rampages on the girl who was so monstrously selfish as to not want to be around a freaky asshole who traps her in a small area, invades her personal space, and starts trashing her organizational system. None of that is adorable or well meaning, it's invasive and jerkish, and frankly borders assault in a few cases (DO NOT SMELL MY HAIR. NO.) 

 

The actor who plays Ed deserves a lot of credit in not trying to make Nygma cuddly or a sad puppy. He's off-putting for a damn good reason and none of the other characters can stand him for that reason. He's an utterly selfish ball of brilliant but cold deduction with no regard for any feelings but his own. 

[Milz]

 

So one strike and she's out? One mistake and Jim needs to cut her out?  She isn't asking for minutiae of every case he's on. She has specifically asked about Oswald, due to Montoya being certain she had Jim on murder charges.  Charges sure enough to get a judge to sign off on a warrant. 

 

Barbara is left in the dark is not something I enjoy watching. I also don't want another Nagging Cop's Fiancee/Wife/SO; I can watch almost any other show on TV to see that trope. I just hope that the writers do something smart with Barbara.

edited: punctuation

 

If she can't shut up on a relatively little thing, then the chances are slim, imo, that she'll be able to keep quiet on a big thing.

 

I too hope that the writers will do something with Barbara----like kill her off after she's fulfilled her Pre-Crisis destiny (DC Comics 1967-1988)----because at this rate she'll be another whiny, needy, girlfriend.

[Ubiquitous]

I wonder how many times Kristen has told HR about Ed Nygma? I got the feeling this was not the first time he acted this way around her and she had to remind what happened the previous time or times.

[Perfect Xero]

Montoya: "We're arresting these cops for the murder of Oswald Cobblepot!"

Penguin: "Hi, I'm Oswald Cobblepot!"

Everyone at the Station: "You're the goddamn worst, Montoya."

[blackwing]

Great episode, even if we didn't get to see the deliciously campy Jada Pinkett Smith.  

 

I very much enjoyed the plot.  It was kind of like the Dollmaker episode of "Arrow", but way more satisfying and interesting.

 

Ozzie and Mommy in the bathroom.  Yuck.  Just like Kyle MacLachlan and his mom on "Sex and the City".  Even though we didn't see the sponge go under water, it's obvious she was going to give him a full bath.  Anyone else notice that she didn't even bother to roll up the sleeves of her ancient dress or fringed lace shawl or whatever it was?  She just dips her entire sleeve into the tub, she doesn't care if it gets wet, she's giving a bath to her grown boy-man son, she gets to touch him.  Yeech.

 

Really disliking Montoya.  She's useless.  I don't care how awesome she is supposed to be in the comics.  I don't read the Batman comics.  I just judge by what I see on TV.  And what I see is someone who is singularly obsessed with Jim Gordon, because he's sleeping with who used to be with her.  Doesn't she have anything else to do?  MCU is Major Crimes Unit, right?  Is it part of the GCPD?  Is it federal?  Why wouldn't Internal Affairs be handling any such investigation?

[Danny Franks]

If she can't shut up on a relatively little thing, then the chances are slim, imo, that she'll be able to keep quiet on a big thing.

 

I too hope that the writers will do something with Barbara----like kill her off after she's fulfilled her Pre-Crisis destiny (DC Comics 1967-1988)----because at this rate she'll be another whiny, needy, girlfriend.

 

A "relatively little thing" like her fiance being accused of having murdered a crook on the orders of a gangland boss? Yeah, she's such a whiny bitch for wanting to know more about that.

 

Nevermind the actual event she's worried about, but real relationships have to be built on trust and honesty, and if Jim is keeping things from her, refusing to share what is clearly bothering him, then how can she feel anything but hurt and concerned?

 

I don't disagree that the character currently feels completely superfluous to the show, and I wonder whether they might have been better off introducing Barbara Kean as a journalist or doctor or lawyer who gets her flirt on with Gordon occasionally, to avoid immediately loading the show with pre-existing relationship baggage, but I don't think she's done anything yet that makes her a terrible person or a terrible character.

 

On the other hand, the writing of Montoya is so terrible, at this stage, that she does need to hang out in a meat locker, with Fish and the boys. She's being written as a psycho ex who is abusing her powers to ruin the life of her ex's new squeeze. Who ever thought that was a good way to write anyone who really should be seen as one of the good guys?

Edited October 29, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Shanna]

A "relatively little thing" like her fiance being accused of having murdered a crook on the orders of a gangland boss? Yeah, she's such a whiny bitch for wanting to know more about ?

I think the "little thing" the op was talking about is whatever Barbara called the press about in the first episode after him told her not to, NOT the thing now with cobblepot. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.

As I said, I see both their sides in this and like them both but I do hope it is resolved sometime soon / which I guess it kind of will be since he's obviously innocent what with the supposed corpse showing up all alive.

[Danielg342]

Kind of get the impression the women on this show weren't very thought out. They've got no agency on this show except for being tied to male characters (even Fish, whose storyline is essentially getting rid of Carmine Falcone) and they're either written with an idealistic male version in mind (Fish, Lizzie) or given very little to do (Kean, Montoya, Essen).

I get that the show is based on stories written at a time when female characters weren't used for much other than as wish fulfilment or decoration, but we're in 2014...independent women exist now, I think it's time we got one on the show.

[Kromm]

Kind of get the impression the women on this show weren't very thought out. They've got no agency on this show except for being tied to male characters (even Fish, whose storyline is essentially getting rid of Carmine Falcone) and they're either written with an idealistic male version in mind (Fish, Lizzie) or given very little to do (Kean, Montoya, Essen).

I get that the show is based on stories written at a time when female characters weren't used for much other than as wish fulfilment or decoration, but we're in 2014...independent women exist now, I think it's time we got one on the show.

Fish not being a better character is about half the fault of a really shitty actress, and half the writers just having started with a bad concept for her.

A majorly powerful female character might have been Dr. Leslie Thompkins, who I understand they ARE adding to the show now (it's open casting news, so not spoilerish), but the little they say about her sounds like they've mucked with her character a bit and {spoiler tags just in case--even though it's been talked about in the articles about her casting}

she doesn't have the strong story position in Bruce Wayne's life she should have, and is now just an annoying complication for Gordon's own storyline.

Montoya is the biggest disappointment.  She was a hugely flawed character in the comics, mind you, but not the total idiot this show is making her into.

Essen is a disappointment too, I guess.  She CAN'T be the character from classic comics, because her position relative to Gordon is ENTIRELY different from those stories.  But in trade they just made her a total non-entity.

[Flyingwoman]

Wow. Got THREE of my wishes in one episode: more Donald Logue, Mama Cobblepot and Baby Cobblepot together again, and Oswald returns the favor to Gordon! For my next wishes, I would like Barbara to have a scene with someone who isn't Gordon or Montoya, for Bruce and Alfred to hug, and for the return of Dix.

When Bullock told the shrink she was 100% crazy I thought he was going to say,"You are the 1%, bitch!" Those endless back zippers couldn't have come cheap. I wondered if that was supposed to be some kind of comic tip off or just a nod to dom gear.

When Cobblepot was in the tub, for a second he had his mouth set so he looked as if he was 5. I bet that's why there is no other woman for him. There's nowhere else and no one else he could go to where he would be the undisputed King of Brats. I think Fish taught him that. He was her baby boy, but she was not his mama.

[Kromm]

Wow. Got THREE of my wishes in one episode: more Donald Logue, Mama Cobblepot and Baby Cobblepot together again, and Oswald returns the favor to Gordon! For my next wishes, I would like Barbara to have a scene with someone who isn't Gordon or Montoya, for Bruce and Alfred to hug, and for the return of Dix.

Ack, please no on the hug!  They can only reinvent these characters so much before breaking what made them originally, and Bruce and Alfred having a hugging relationship is a step too far in my opinion.  There's got to be an air of formality to their dealings always, with the affection there, but unstated.  It kind of defines them.  Remember, when Bruce is in his 30s Alfred STILL calls him "Master Bruce".

[Danielg342]

Fish not being a better character is about half the fault of a really shitty actress, and half the writers just having started with a bad concept for her.

A majorly powerful female character might have been Dr. Leslie Thompkins, who I understand they ARE adding to the show now (it's open casting news, so not spoilerish), but the little they say about her sounds like they've mucked with her character a bit and {spoiler tags just in case--even though it's been talked about in the articles about her casting}

she doesn't have the strong story position in Bruce Wayne's life she should have, and is now just an annoying complication for Gordon's own storyline.

Montoya is the biggest disappointment.  She was a hugely flawed character in the comics, mind you, but not the total idiot this show is making her into.

Essen is a disappointment too, I guess.  She CAN'T be the character from classic comics, because her position relative to Gordon is ENTIRELY different from those stories.  But in trade they just made her a total non-entity.

 

I agree that Jada Pinkett-Smith goes too far with her campiness sometimes, but she seems obsessed with what's between her legs...it's so one-dimensional.

 

As for Essen, what bugs me more about her character is that it's a cliche. Hollywood seems to love putting a woman as the "overall leader" of the operation the protagonist's team is a part of, without making the character do anything except be a thorn in the protagonist's side. It's purely done for political correctness and it's so tiring. Showrunners think they're being inclusive when really, they're just lazy.

[jagfan05]

Some questions/notes....

 

1.) Who is the "familiar villain that returns" referencing in the first post of this thread & the intros to this show?

 

2.) Could Dr. Marks somehow be Talia al Guhl or someone related to Ra's ah Ghul and that's the answer to Question 1? The way Dr. Marks talked about "cleansing the city" automatically made me think of Ra's ah Ghul...I know Talia al Ghul is more Batman's age right so probably not?

 

3.) Can someone refresh my memory....what is Jim Gordon completely not revealing to Barbara again? She said she wants him to tell her everything and he already told her about not shooting Oswald Cobblepot...what else is it referring to?

[Kromm]

I think Dr. Marks is just Dr. Marks and not secretly another person (I know there have been a few suggestions--not just Talia al Guhl).  That said, while I don't think her "cleansing the city" comment necessarily means more than that she's just a lone nutjob with power over people, I suppose it's also possible she's part of some greater organization with that goal.  But if she is, I still don't see the need for her to be anything other than a footsoldier.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Kromm

[MarkHB]

I think the "returns" comment was just talking about the Goat... Familiar to Harvey.

[blackwing]

As for Essen, what bugs me more about her character is that it's a cliche. Hollywood seems to love putting a woman as the "overall leader" of the operation the protagonist's team is a part of, without making the character do anything except be a thorn in the protagonist's side. It's purely done for political correctness and it's so tiring. Showrunners think they're being inclusive when really, they're just lazy.

I tend to agree.  I wish we could actually see her DOING something for once instead of just telling people what to do.  Although I dunno, is the role of the Captain to just sit around and decree orders without really getting involved?  There is the same set up on "Forever", a black woman is in charge of the squad of detectives.  Over there, she actually does go to crime scenes but generally like you said happens here on "Gotham" with Essen, her primary purpose is to be the source of disagreeable skepticism towards the protagonist.  Lorraine Toussaint is an amazing actress and has a lot of gravitas, I wish they gave her more to do.  I don't know the actress that plays Essen but haven't seen enough of Essen to make a better judgment on her.

[DigitalCount]

I am so glad that Montoya and Allen got to look like a couple of stupid jerks in this episode. Also, everything to do with Ozzie and his storyline is spot on. I have a feeling that once they get a chance, he's going to be moved up in screen-time/story importance.

[Kromm]

I tend to agree.  I wish we could actually see her DOING something for once instead of just telling people what to do.  Although I dunno, is the role of the Captain to just sit around and decree orders without really getting involved?  There is the same set up on "Forever", a black woman is in charge of the squad of detectives.  Over there, she actually does go to crime scenes but generally like you said happens here on "Gotham" with Essen, her primary purpose is to be the source of disagreeable skepticism towards the protagonist.  Lorraine Toussaint is an amazing actress and has a lot of gravitas, I wish they gave her more to do.  I don't know the actress that plays Essen but haven't seen enough of Essen to make a better judgment on her.

So so many shows. This one.  Forever.  Castle (after they replaced the male Captain).  I'm sure I recall at least one of the L&O shows having a mostly useless female Captain.

 

TVtropes.com says this is a subset of the trope they label "Da Chief".

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DaChief

 

 

The Cowboy Cop's eternally put-upon superior. Always strict and by-the-book. Can be comfortably relied upon to give a good McCloud Speech, say that You Have 48 Hours or demand that you Turn in Your Badge, usually at the top of his formidable voice. Frequently worried that the mayor or district attorney will have his ass (and pension) for whatever destruction was caused.

And the most relevant part:

 

Increasingly, Da Chief is a woman, ethnic minority, or some combination thereof.

[Flyingwoman]

Ack, please no on the hug!  They can only reinvent these characters so much before breaking what made them originally, and Bruce and Alfred having a hugging relationship is a step too far in my opinion.  There's got to be an air of formality to their dealings always, with the affection there, but unstated.  It kind of defines them.  Remember, when Bruce is in his 30s Alfred STILL calls him "Master Bruce".

Oh, it would be very Batman Does Downton Abbey. Just substitute Alfred for Carson and Bruce for Lady Mary. Afterward Alfred, like Carson, remains the exemplary professional and Bruce, like Lady Mary, remains preternaturally imperious (or, perhaps in Lady Mary's case, just plain old imperious). Everyone stays in character. Everybody wins.

(Of course, having made the comparison, I can't help but think how cheeky it is of Bruce to address Alfred by his first name. I doubt Carson would stand for it, even from Lady Mary.)

[Kromm]

(Of course, having made the comparison, I can't help but think how cheeky it is of Bruce to address Alfred by his first name. I doubt Carson would stand for it, even from Lady Mary.)

Well that could just be a peculiarity of when Americans employ English manservants/butlers/valets/whichever Alfred is in this version,

since he's loosely been all of those in the comics

.  Or it could be that

Jarvis Pennyworth still existed and worked for the Waynes in this version, and so when Alfred arrived he had to be "Alfred", since there could only be one "Pennyworth" (even if Jarvis was gone that might hold true).

[MisterGlass]

Alfred has already hugged Bruce.  Twice.  First at the Wayne murder scene, and second after Bruce burned himself.  Neither were particularly tender, but they were appropriate.

 

As far as female characters on the show, I agree that they are not appealing.  In the time that we spend with them, most of the character traits they show are unappealing and horribly repetitive.  Montoya has been hamstrung by relationship baggage and a foolish investigation.  Essen, as a police captain, is an administrator and supervisor, and his or her personnel have a level of autonomy, so it is not unreasonable that she spend a great deal of her time at the station.  When we do see her, she is defending the corrupt status quo, and ordering her people to do the same.  Barbara appears to be directionless except for her desire to have Jim open up to her.  This in itself is not an unreasonable request, but it is unvarying, and so becomes annoying, much like Montoya's behavior.  Barbara is right to ask for a level of honesty from her future life partner, and while Jim may think he is protecting her, others will assume she has information because of her involvement with him.  They should make decisions about their lives and safety together.  As far as Barbara's call to the papers, it was cheeky and she no doubt enjoyed the chance to flout her knowledge, but the base motive was informing Gotham that children were in danger when the establishment refused to do it.

 

In order to warm to these characters we'll have to different sides of them.  With Fish, camp as she is - and I believe that is an intentional choice, for good or ill - she has a goal that does not revolve around Gordon.  What she does isn't appealing either, though it is sometimes interesting, and has more layers than what the other female characters do.  Mother Cobblepot's actions have also been very specific and focused, but on Oswald.  We haven't seen enough from her to see how strictly she'll adhere to her pattern.

 

Selina, the Wayne enterprises 'non board member', and the new Kristin Kringle have potential.  Kristin feels like a more real character in a single episode than most of those we have met thus far.

 

Bullock started with a simple premise, and with this episode he has grown in a very interesting way.  So has Nygma, who was hampered with the same type of behavioral restriction as the female characters.  We need a similar breakthrough with other chracters.  I'm optimistic that we will get it, or that the characters that don't work will be discarded.

 

A review I read said Ben Edlund wrote this episode.  No wonder I warmed to it.

[Milz]

A "relatively little thing" like her fiance being accused of having murdered a crook on the orders of a gangland boss? Yeah, she's such a whiny bitch for wanting to know more about that.

 

Nevermind the actual event she's worried about, but real relationships have to be built on trust and honesty, and if Jim is keeping things from her, refusing to share what is clearly bothering him, then how can she feel anything but hurt and concerned?

 

I don't disagree that the character currently feels completely superfluous to the show, and I wonder whether they might have been better off introducing Barbara Kean as a journalist or doctor or lawyer who gets her flirt on with Gordon occasionally, to avoid immediately loading the show with pre-existing relationship baggage, but I don't think she's done anything yet that makes her a terrible person or a terrible character.

 

 

 

The relatively little thing was in the second episode where Jim tells her about the disappearing children and Blabbara calls the newspaper/tv. Jim had no obligation to tell Blabbara that. Yet she whined and needied it out of him.

 

As for honesty in a relationship------she's engaged to Jim, whom she's known for presumably more than 2 weeks, and she doesn't tell him about her relationship with Montoya? Yeah, Blabbara scores high on the honesty in relationship category.

[jagfan05]

Can someone refresh my memory....what is Jim Gordon completely not revealing to Barbara again? She said she wants him to tell her everything and he already told her about not shooting Oswald Cobblepot...what else is it referring to?

[MarkHB]

I think he intended to tell her the whole story the way he told it to Maroni, but hadn't gotten the opportunity after making that decision as of the end of this episode.

Edited October 31, 2014 by MarkHB

[Actionmage]

A review I read said Ben Edlund wrote this episode.  No wonder I warmed to it.

 

 

I tend to really enjoy his stuff. If anyone can capture the crazy of Gotham, it should be Mr. Edlund in particular. Spoon!

 

Alfred has already hugged Bruce.  Twice.  First at the Wayne murder scene, and second after Bruce burned himself.  Neither were particularly tender, but they were appropriate.

 

I agree. I'm not advocating for Happy Hug Time with Bruce and Alfred, but where appropriate, a hug between them. Bruce has all of high school and after to not hug Alfred.

I do think she hurt her cause calling the paper though so I can see Jim's point.

 

Jim said that if he could call in the tip, he would. The situation was more than Jim and Barbara; there were children's lives at the mercy of murderers. That fact is consistently glossed over. The police had their hands tied due to politics. In order to be allowed to save the kids, someone/-thing had to light a fire under the mayor's ass to save the kids. Since they were probably not registered voters, the Mayor had zero figs to give about their welfare. Barbara supplied motivation to help save the kids. Gordon and Bullock are good enough cops that they were able to use the leads they had to save the kids and trump potential blowback in that case. Yes, Gordon and Bullock got on the mayor's bad side, but then Gordon and Bullock saved his ass shortly after.

 

I don't see why Barbara's anonymous tip needs to be brought up still.  If anything, she's still mum about her drug past. I like Barbara, but think it's stupid of her to want honesty on why he's up on murder charges but she won't talk about her past which could negatively impact his present.

[Oscirus]

This is probably my favorite Gotham episode so far. 

 

I'm still wondering how Montoya was able to arrest Gordon on the word of a bum. Especially without a body.  It came off as the show needing Gordon to be arrested just to move the plot forward.

 

I liked watching  Bullock in action, and I even get why the hypnotist lady confessed. I mean yea, she would've been better off keeping her mouth shut but she figured that she was going to get away with it, so why not.

 

I liked Barbara in this episode. I just need them to keep her consistent. One moment she's breaking up with Jim because he won't tell her about Penguin, the next, she's ready to run away with him, not caring about whether or not he killed penguin.

 

The Riddler scenes worked for me. I think they need to concentrate more on his using riddles to outsmart people and less on his explaining said riddles. If those scenes with Kris Kringle aren't building up to her becoming one of his minions, I will feel as if they wasted time. But for now, they work.

 

Finally, if you don't have anything for Bruce then don't shoehorn him into the episode. I get that this is a show about Gotham but it's not his story, we don't have to see him every week.

 

 

 

 

[Camera One]

Finally, if you don't have anything for Bruce then don't shoehorn him into the episode. I get that this is a show about Gotham but it's not his story, we don't have to see him every week.

 

He is a first-born so he had a connection to the case, and that short scene they had showed continuation on his current quest, and shed a little light into how he sees himself vs. how Alfred saw him, in one simple line.  So why not?  It hardly took any time.

[Kromm]

I'm still wondering how Montoya was able to arrest Gordon on the word of a bum. Especially without a body.  It came off as the show needing Gordon to be arrested just to move the plot forward.

Seems to me you need an arrest warrant, signed by a judge.  The cops can ASK anyone in for questioning without one (although the person can refuse), but to actually present it as "you are under arrest!" and slap them in cuffs is something else entirely. I mean unless they catch someone during the commission of the actual crime they're arresting them for, I mean.  That's a third situation.

[Camera One]

When they were arresting Gordon, how did the other cops react?  I realized we don't know most of the people in that department, so we have no idea how the other cops viewed Gordon.  Did they resent his boy scout attitude like Harvey did?  Did they know of him?  Or was he still mostly anonymous?  They are all on the same floor so you'd think they would bump into each other quite a bit.

[Kromm]

When they were arresting Gordon, how did the other cops react?  I realized we don't know most of the people in that department, so we have no idea how the other cops viewed Gordon.  Did they resent his boy scout attitude like Harvey did?  Did they know of him?  Or was he still mostly anonymous?  They are all on the same floor so you'd think they would bump into each other quite a bit.

I don't know about that, but didn't we just see Gordon lauded by the other cops in the previous episode (when he takes down one of the Viper-heads)? Also, he's saved the mayor's life, as well as gotten in the papers over the arrest in the Wayne case.  So no matter what, he's certainly not anonymous or below the radar to the rest of them.

[Camera One]

I vaguely remember the other cops being displeased when he was arrested, but I didn't quite remember.

[Danielg342]

Essen said at the end “you can't just take them!” but I don't recall how the other cops would have reacted.

I wonder- does Gotham PD have a Union?

[Actionmage]

IIRC, the other cops- fellow street cops- were equally frowny when Montoya and Allen were cuffing Our Guys. There was a sort of crush around the four of them and Essen. That is why so many hands were available to keep Harvey and Jim apart at the end.

 

I hope that we see pools of support for both Harvey and Jim. Harvey seems lke a good enough guy. He's no Boy Scout, but he's good police and can close cases. He knows how the city goes and stays out of trouble. (As some folks see the city.) Maybe younger cops and some of the older veteran cops will want to side with Gordon. I may come own to how the individual cops  read Jim an Harvey's situation:  Did Jim let Harvey down by not killing Cobblepot? What's more important: personal ethics or keeping cops alive?

 

The police reactions could be very cool and interesting. I am very excited for Monday's episode!

[Trini]

So what's up with "Kristen Kringle"? As in, Chris Kingle; as in Santa Claus. Is there a Batman-Santa connection I don't know about? This is a comic book show, so I'm assuming she has that name for a reason.

[Kromm]

So what's up with "Kristen Kringle"? As in, Chris Kingle; as in Santa Claus. Is there a Batman-Santa connection I don't know about? This is a comic book show, so I'm assuming she has that name for a reason.

The only intelligent guess I've seen is some loose connection to some total reinvention of Mr. Freeze. His name is Dr. Victor Fries, not "Kringle", then again the comics don't have an "Ivy Pepper" either.  So it could be a female Freeze, or a relative. 

 

Or no relation at all.  Maybe it's just to fuck with our heads a bit.