S05.E07: Friendless Child

[Tara Ariano]

Nucky's war with Luciano draws in Willie and Eli as Nucky tries to maintain his control in Atlantic City. Meanwhile, Maranzano's tenure as boss is nearing the end; Gillian sends a letter from the hospital; and in 1897, a young Nucky quarrels with Mabel about a runaway from Trenton and does a favor for the Commodore.

[Neurochick]

I wonder what or if Nucky will do anything for Gillian.

Last season, I remember hearing that one of the producers said they wanted two more years for the show. I wonder if maybe because the fans were so pissed off at Richard's demise, and quite vocal about it on tumblr and Facebook, HBO was like fuck this, they only get eight episodes. I wonder what would have happened if the show did have two years.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Neurochick

[Growsonwalls]

He'll probably go to the asylum and shove some benjamins to get her released. Because that's all Nucky ever does -- pay off problems.

[AimingforYoko]

RIP Mickey, you lasted a decade longer than I figured.

The casting director should have their Emmy on lockdown, because young Gillian was another home run.

[HollaMcDollar]

So, Joe Harper was just a random kid looking for a hand up, correct?

[BindsTheTuna]

Could Joe Harper be Teddy?

[Neurochick]

So, Joe Harper was just a random kid looking for a hand up, correct?

I think he was a parallel of young Nucky, wanting to get ahead. And Nucky told him to "just get away from me."

[alynch]

Yeah, I think this episode pretty much put to bed the Tommy Darmody theory (*). The source of that theory was the character receiving prominence despite seemingly lacking any dramatic purpose. This episode gave him dramatic purpose by presenting him as direct parallel of Young Nucky who Nucky tries to discourage from following his path.

 

(*) Reserve the right to be totally wrong on this.

 

Also, Boo! to the show for not using Willie's employ as an excuse for an Esther Randolph cameo. That seemed like a no-brainer to me.

Edited October 20, 2014 by alynch

[Avaleigh]

Wow, the stuff with the Commodore was even worse than I thought it would be in terms of Nucky handing Gillian over. Nucky actually sees with his own eyes the crying, wrecked figure of a young child who has been abused by the Commodore and he still feels like it will be worth it in the long run to put Gillian in a situation where he knows that it's wrong. We saw how uncomfortable he looked when he saw that girl and he was ultimately concerned with how he would be able to profit from the situation. Very sad.

 

The stuff with Ben Siegel wasn't terrible suspenseful considering we know he doesn't die at this point. He's also annoying in general. I kind of LOL when even Mickey Doyle became irritated with Siegel.

 

I feel like it might very well be over for Gillian after that last scene. They wait until the end to show her make an escape attempt and then this ominous shadow comes showing that she's been caught? She looked terrified and I can't help but feel that if Nucky does bother to try to rescue her or visit her that he'll be too late. Too bad he ignored her letter for so long.

 

I thought the moment where Nucky had to go down on his knees was hard. I actually winced but when I remembered that he'd done that to Lansky it made it a little easier to accept.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Growsonwalls]

I kind of like them showing those scenes of young Nucky. I feel like often in the final episodes of a series the creators go soft on the protagonist. I like that they continue to show Nucky as a remarkably cold, un-empathetic man, and that he was always this way. 

[Lone Wolf]

Maybe I'm being sentimental because the show's winding down, but I felt sorry for young Gillian, especially after she was all dressed up.  She seemed so eager to please and desperate for Nucky's approval and that, contrasted with the jaded woman that she will become, made me sad.

 

Mickey Doyle, OTOH...saw that one coming as soon as he started up.  I hope Nucky cashes that insurance policy quickly.

 

I'm a little concerned about some potential foreshadowing - Nucky saying that you tell yourself that (someone getting killed) was quick, but you don't know until it happens to you, and then you'll never be able to tell anyone - sounded similar to "you never hear the bullet that kills you" from The Sopranos.  If next week's ep ends with Nucky listening to the radio, quick cut to black, and roll credits, no audio, I'm gonna be an unhappy camper.

[ganesh]

I was disappointed in how Nucky/Luciano played out because Nucky isn't a real gangster type. I thought he was just going to buy in with him. Like how the Sopranos were just a 'glorified crew' for the real New York families. But, the show made it clear that Nucky underestimated Luciano so I can't call bs or ooc. I just wanted it to go different. Although, the real Luciano was very Italians Only for who gets a piece, so it might have ended up this way regardless.

 

I'd like Nucky to survive, but they were sure laying it on thick at the end here.

 

I don't know who the hell is casting for this show. The girl even nailed Gillian's diction to the letter. And as soon as I saw Seigel, I was like, oh, that's Seigel. 

[3 is enough]

Just last week I was thinking that Mickey Doyle was infinitely less irritating compared to earlier seasons, and boom! he's gone.

There's a lot to tie up in one episode.  Sadly, I did not see any sign of Narcisse in the preview for next week.  I hope that doesn't mean he just skates away.

[Pallas]

That was beautiful.  The suspense at the big set-piece of the face-off with its many twists, the most compelling being Nucky's final act of leadership in desperately preventing a bloodbath, before he surrenders.  Preceded and followed by Gillian's story,  and the ache of that ending.  The show's "To the lost" poured out for Gillian, and with her, the other women-become-casualties.

 

Those are the faces it seems Nucky will be seeing -- has been seeing -- as he prepares to abdicate.  Stretching back to his sister, for whose death he probably felt more guilt, however irrational, because of his complete helplessness.  Guilt he may in some way, perversely, have tried to relieve through callousness by actually playing a role in the ruin of Gillian, and by his seeming indifference to the crisis with Mabel and their child: twenty years before he tried a different tack with Mrs. Schroeder.  By which time Nucky had already become a man who could not help anyone who remained close to him.

[thuganomics85]

I figured with Van Alden gone, the laughs might not be as good, but leave it to Ben Siegel being the most annoying hostage on the planet, to change all that.  I loved how even Doyle looked like he wanted to kill him.  And, of course, Nucky trying to handle a phone conversation with Margaret, all while that ruckus was going on.  Also loved when Ben first called, Lucky and Lansky assumed he was just making excuses, and hung him on him.  I do like how this show finds humor in it's dark surroundings.

 

So, basically, the showdown ended up being pretty one-sided.  Nucky kidnaps Ben, so Lucky/Lansky kidnaps Willie.  They go for a trade, only for them to betray Nucky, and he's basically force to not only give it all up, but humble himself in front of them.  Oh, and sent Eli and crew to take care of their problem.  Yep, Lansky and Lucky were just several steps ahead of Nucky.  At least he's still breathing... for now.

 

Those flashbacks were about as hard to watch as expected.  Seeing the interactions between Young Nucky and Young Gillian were just brutal, knowing what Nucky is going to do to her.  And, as we saw tonight, it's not like he doesn't know how fucked-up The Commodore was beforehand.  I'm already shuddering over if they'll show the introduction or not, in the finale.  Again though, the casting is insane.  Young Gillian really looked the part, and there were times where the actress delivered lines the same way Gretchen Mol does.  This honestly might be some of the best "flashbacks" I've ever seen on any TV show.

 

Oh, Mickey Doyle.  As soon as things were going  your way, I knew your luck had ran out.  You could be a big, annoying moron... but, you had your moments.  If there is Boardwalk Empire afterlife, just watch yourself, because I don't see folks like Van Alden, Chalky, Rothstein, Richard, or even Jimmy, putting up with your annoying laugh for an eternity.

 

Yeah, it looks like this Joe kid wasn't Tommy, but just a parallel to Young Nucky/Commodore, and how it ended differently (by Nucky pushing him away, instead of bringing him in deeper.)

 

Really curious to see how this is all going to wrap up next week. 

[bookrat]

I was rather hoping the roommate that Willie sent up the river would come back and plug him.

[RealityGal]

I wonder what or if Nucky will do anything for Gillian.

Last season, I remember hearing that one of the producers said they wanted two more years for the show. I wonder if maybe because the fans were so pissed off at Richard's demise, and quite vocal about it on tumblr and Facebook, HBO was like fuck this, they only get eight episodes. I wonder what would have happened if the show did have two years.

 

It could be a giant "fuck you" since they have killed off every character I like.  Although, I will know its a giant "fuck you" if they keep Narcisse alive.

 

I was disappointed in how Nucky/Luciano played out because Nucky isn't a real gangster type. I thought he was just going to buy in with him. Like how the Sopranos were just a 'glorified crew' for the real New York families. But, the show made it clear that Nucky underestimated Luciano so I can't call bs or ooc. I just wanted it to go different. Although, the real Luciano was very Italians Only for who gets a piece, so it might have ended up this way regardless.

 

I'd like Nucky to survive, but they were sure laying it on thick at the end here.

 

I don't know who the hell is casting for this show. The girl even nailed Gillian's diction to the letter. And as soon as I saw Seigel, I was like, oh, that's Seigel. 

 

I think Seigel has been the only fail in the casting for me.  Even in old black and whites, Siegel was very handsome, and much better looking than the actor in my opinion.  I think that was a big part of who he was.  He was this amazingly good looking guy, who was basically crazy.  I think the actor seems to play it more twerpy/funny than crazy/funny.  The guy in the room with Lansky and Luciano seemed better looking to me.

 

As far as Luciano, I thought he was all about making money with whomever, and that Lansky was one of his closest friends.

 

He'll probably go to the asylum and shove some benjamins to get her released. Because that's all Nucky ever does -- pay off problems.

I think he is going to be too late.  When he gets there Gillian will have had a lobotomy or all her teeth will be pulled out.  

 

Wow, the stuff with the Commodore was even worse than I thought it would be in terms of Nucky handing Gillian over. Nucky actually sees with his own eyes the crying, wrecked figure of a young child who has been abused by the Commodore and he still feels like it will be worth it in the long run to put Gillian in a situation where he knows that it's wrong. We saw how uncomfortable he looked when he saw that girl and he was ultimately concerned with how he would be able to profit from the situation. Very sad.

 

 

I wonder if they are going to explain how it all works out with Mabel.  If he finds Gillian and hands her over to the Commodore for his "guidance."  I gotta figure at some point Mabel finds out.  I'm not sure if he does this after Mabel loses the baby or before, but I wonder if him doing that, and her finding out has some big impact on their relationship.

 

Maybe I'm being sentimental because the show's winding down, but I felt sorry for young Gillian, especially after she was all dressed up.  She seemed so eager to please and desperate for Nucky's approval and that, contrasted with the jaded woman that she will become, made me sad.

 

 

I'm really starting to intensely dislike Nucky for his treatment of young Gillian, and its going to be the sort of dislike thats going to be deep and its not going to make me sorry if he dies.  Although, I will feel better if he kills Narcisse.

[SomeJabroni]

RIP, Mickey Doyle.  He started out as such an obnoxious twit and approached something resembling an actual adult; I was actually liking him at the end of the last episode.  Not not-disliking him, but actually liking him and even gave him a "Go Mickey!"  when he showed up with his shotgun toting army of brigands.  I wonder if the insurance policy that AR sold to Nucky is current on payments.

 

Speaking of...  I don't think Nucky is going to get of here alive.  Someone above mentioned how seedy the boardwalk is now compared to Babette's Supper Club as a parallel to the downward spiral of Nucky's life/empire and I completely agree.  The scene where Sheriff Lindsay took off his badge and gave it to Nucky was extremely well done and, once again, that kid playing 'Young Nucky' is superb.  I had a feeling that was what he (Lindsay) was referring to - Commodore's proclivity toward minors - but the way that scene played out at the Commodore's house was chilling.  And knowing what's in store for Nucky and Gillian makes it all the more chilling.  I don't have a good feeling about her prospects for a 'happily ever after' either.  Damn you, show!  You're really pulling at the heartstrings this season.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I don't think that kid is Tommy anymore.  I hadn't completely discounted the idea of him just being a parallel of Nucky - a poor kid trying to 'make something of himself' - him being the exiled son of the 'exiled' next in line just seemed like such a good idea.  Having the story come full circle, as it were.  But since Nucky no longer has an empire to bequeath to the next in line...  Plus the handing him all that cash and advising him (not!Tommy) to do something other than aspire to Nuckydom; I am now disavowed of the notion.  (But I do still secretly hope it turns out to be true, with some kind of scene with Gillian before the show ends.)

 

Edited because spelling is your friend.

 

Second edit...

 

Regarding the scene where Nucky shows up at the Commodore's house, after Sheriff Lindsay had ridden off in the carriage - was Leander telling Nucky to kill that child?  His words to Nucky were, "There will be no further compensation; there will be no further inquiry," as he was handing Nucky a thick envelope.  Now that I've had time to digest that a little, am I to understand that the girl's mother had been receiving compensation for pimping out her daughter?  And now that she's "no longer able to be helped" they're going to leave her like a hog under the boardwalk??!?  I guess I was too relieved that there wasn't a dead child in that room when I first watched this scene, that the dialogue didn't hit me until the rewatch.  That's some sick shit.  And Nucky's going to carry out his task with discretion and "honor."  Egads.

 

Also - and this may be my imagination running away with me a bit - but given how grim the future looks for Nucky, if gawd damned Margaret ends up with the money from Chekhov's Insurance Policy, I am washing my hands of Terence Winter.  I have an irrational dislike of Margaret and her mealy-mouthed, selectively Catholic ways.

Edited October 20, 2014 by SomeJabroni

[Primetimer]

In the penultimate Boardwalk Empire, Nucky Thompson finds himself running out of options (and living friends).

Read the story

[Pallas]

I'm  glad to be wrong about Joe Harper, since as a poster in a previous ep thread noted, if Joe were Tommy, that would make Richard's sacrifice for naught.  It would also at least imply, I think, that Tommy's youth with Julia and Richard's sister had not gone well, and/or that Julia or both women might now be dead, and/or that the Harrow farm  was now lost to the Depression.  I'm happy to imagine otherwise. 

 

Will Nucky survive to live off his own version of a 401(K)? (1) Insurance policy on Mickey Doyle, and (2) profits from stock-market skimming with his estranged wife?  Will he know -- or allow Margaret to guide him -- to get out of the crooked market before FDR is elected in 1932 and appoints Joe Kennedy to bring order to the chickenhouse?

[alynch]

Regarding the scene where Nucky shows up at the Commodore's house, after Sheriff Lindsay had ridden off in the carriage - was Leander telling Nucky to kill that child?  His words to Nucky were, "There will be no further compensation; there will be no further inquiry," as he was handing Nucky a thick envelope.  Now that I've had time to digest that a little, am I to understand that the girl's mother had been receiving compensation for pimping out her daughter?  And now that she's "no longer able to be helped" they're going to leave her like a hog under the boardwalk??!?  I guess I was too relieved that there wasn't a dead child in that room when I first watched this scene, that the dialogue didn't hit me until the rewatch.  That's some sick shit.  And Nucky's going to carry out his task with discretion and "honor."  Egads.

 

The Commodore was definitely compensating parents for access to their young daughters. Whether or not these parents knew what The Commodore was doing isn't certain (my opinion: probably). I do not think Nucky was being instructed to kill the girl, though. It's not necessary. The Commodore deliberately picks out girls who are poor and disadvantaged enough to not have any recourse against him. The way he and Leander (*) handled makes it seem like this is par for the course. The Commodore probably routinely takes in young girls only to dump them with severance package if they do anything that displeases him, like cry or fight back.

 

(*) And boy does Leander seem like much more of a creep in retrospect. Remember, he's the one who commissioned the Roy Phillips con-job against Gillian. His explanation at the time was, "I owe Louis something." So he basically chose to have a rape victim imprisoned out of loyalty towards the pedophile who raped her.

[lucindabelle]

The letter looping made me teary.

Young Gillian did sound perfect but her nose seemed wrong to me.

Bugsy was hilarious, singing that song so loudly and worrying about getting home for lag b'omer... Not even a major holiday... Kissing mezuzah ... He's a good Jewish boy in some ways ...

The gangsters were for the first time, for me, chilling,

The black woman is based on a real character. I was startled by her too until I knew that.

[3 is enough]

 

The black woman is based on a real character. I was startled by her too until I knew that.

Wow.  I was just about to say how ludicrous it seemed that there was a black female lawyer working at the US attorney's office in 1931.  Did not seem realistic to me.  Then again, the female FBI agent was also based on a real character, and I thought that was purely fictional too.

Edited October 20, 2014 by 3 is enough

[FlowerofCarnage]

The letter looping made me teary.

Young Gillian did sound perfect but her nose seemed wrong to me.

Bugsy was hilarious, singing that song so loudly and worrying about getting home for lag b'omer... Not even a major holiday... Kissing mezuzah ... He's a good Jewish boy in some ways ...

The gangsters were for the first time, for me, chilling,

The black woman is based on a real character. I was startled by her too until I knew that.

Do you know the name of the woman she is based on by any chance?

[apgold]

Could she be Jane Bolin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Bolin?

 

I finally recognized who's playing Mabel - the face reminded me of Zoe Kazan and it turns out it's her sister Maya.

 

The scene where Willie was dumped in front of his office and then went up to work all dirty and disheveled reminded me of the end of Scorsese's "After Hours" when Griffin Dunne did the same thing. Given Scorsese is an exec producer of BE, I don't think the similarity was an accident.  "After Hours" is a great movie - time capsule of NYC downtown wackos in the 80s.

 

RIP Mickey Doyle. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by apgold

[bookrat]

Could the fact that Gillian ran away means that perhaps she finds the Commodore on her own. I thought the original story was that the commodore first saw her when she was crowned "Miss Boardwalk" and had Nucky introduce him, but it seems they have reconed that story from first season.

[Neurochick]

First I just want to say that even in 1931, all black women weren't maids or prostitutes; something that, even today Hollywood doesn't seem to understand.  Black women didn't just materialize in government jobs in 1968.  I once worked with a black woman, who was a nurse, who had retired from a job at NBC, where she worked, in an office, in the 1940's.  

 

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I don't think that kid is Tommy anymore.

 

 

I never even considered the possibility of the kid being Tommy, especially when Nucky asked him why was he doing something and the kid replied, "To get ahead" which was what young Nucky once said to the Commodore.  

 

Regarding the scene where Nucky shows up at the Commodore's house, after Sheriff Lindsay had ridden off in the carriage - was Leander telling Nucky to kill that child?

 

 

No.  Here's what I think was going on.  The parents of the child the Commodore was raping would get financial compensation as long as the girl was staying with him.  When the Commodore was finished with her, she was returned to her parents and the financial compensation would stop.  

[SoothingDave]

The scene where Willie was dumped in front of his office and then went up to work all dirty and disheveled reminded me of the end of Scorsese's "After Hours" when Griffin Dunne did the same thing.

 

 

I had that same thought.  

[aliya]

Do you know the name of the woman she is based on by any chance?

I think it is Mabel Walker Willebrandt. The time is a little off, but see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabel_Walker_Willebrandt "The 2010 HBO television series Boardwalk Empire features Assistant U.S. Attorney Esther Randolph, a character based on and styled after Willebrandt, portrayed by Julianne Nicholson."

[ganesh]

I think Gillian is going to escape before Nucky gets to the asylum and end up on the streets like how she started. 

[Monty Clift]

bookrat:

Could the fact that Gillian ran away means that perhaps she finds the Commodore on her own. I thought the original story was that the commodore first saw her when she was crowned "Miss Boardwalk" and had Nucky introduce him, but it seems they have reconed that story from first season.

 

They haven't retconned anything yet. How can they have? We haven't even seen that play out yet.

 

The original story was that the Commodore saw Gillian as one of the consorts of "Neptune's Bounty" for the May Day celebration of 1897 (which, if you'll recall, one of the those barflies that rolled Nucky a couple episodes back recalled being a part of as well) and ordered Sheriff Nucky to bring her to him that evening for a sexual encounter. That's already been part of the show's canon since. Now we're finding out that Nucky actually had a history with Gillian before those events even transpired.

 

I would wait until the last episode airs before declaring that that storyline has been retconned.

[apgold]

I had that same thought.  

 

So did the recapper, so it wasn't an accident (see upthread for recap)

 

 

Hey, this was fun: The scene where Willie is dropped off after his long night with the Luciano gang? It's an homage to the final sequence in Boardwalk executive producer Martin Scorsese's After Hours, where Griffin Dunne finds himself dumped right in front of his workplace and ends up dusting himself off and going in

[monakane]

How weird is it that Maya Kazan (Mabel Jeffries) plays a victim of the infamous Dr. Cotten on the Knick?  I knew she looked familiar and I couldn't place her until last night.

[panthergirl13]

 

I finally recognized who's playing Mabel - the face reminded me of Zoe Kazan and it turns out it's her sister Maya.

She's also on The Knick, so clearly someone who has benefitted from her 'period' look. :) She's really good on both shows.

 

I think the flashback casting has been absolutely stellar. Not only did that little actress have Gillian's cadence down, but even her tone of voice was spot-on. Really impressive finds for all of the key characters in flashback. 

 

I didn't like last season at all, so I'm very glad that they've done such a great job wrapping it up this year. 

[Neurochick]

I don't think we, the audience will see Narcisse again.  What I find interesting about this show is its depiction of crime.  Criminals either end up in jail or dead, very few retire.  

 

The problem with the time jump this year is that it seems Luciano and Lansky just woke up one morning and said, "Hey, let's kill Nucky Thompson."  I think Luciano wants the Italians to control everything, but to me, there hasn't been enough explanation as to why Luciano came to this conclusion.

 

Nucky had the chance to just be corrupt, to have others do his dirty work for him, but to me that stopped when he, himself killed Jimmy. He crossed the line there, and though inside, he really has never been a gangster, he became one with that killing.  And maybe that's why the writers are focusing on Gillian as well; because had Nucky not handed Gillian over to the Commodore, had he given her money and said, "get out of AC and quick, little girl," she never would have given birth to Jimmy and Nucky never would have murdered him.  

 

One of the things I've noticed is that the intelligent gangsters don't themselves, kill anybody due to emotion.  Narcisse didn't kill Chalky himself, but Chalky was going to kill Narcisse himself.  Luciano didn't kill his former boss in the first episode of the season, he went to the bathroom and the deed was done.  

 

What struck me about this episode was how few friends and allies Nucky had, all of his allies are dead, Chalky, AR, Luciano's boss, Capone wants nothing to do with him, contrast that with the end of season 3 when it was Chalky and Capone who saved Nucky's ass.  

[Pallas]

Nucky's other fatal mistake was to twice -- m ore than twenty years apart -- choose to change his stock-in-trade. The first time was in 1897 when he switched from amiable if acerbic collector of bribes and sometime-protector-of-the peace, to procurer for the Commodore.  The second was in 1920 when he switched from amiable if acerbic collector of lucre and dispenser of patronage and sometime protector of the unfortunate, to drug kingpin.  

 

Each time, he had first been able to style himself as a smart guy who picked up money that was otherwise just lying around, while at the same time, occasionally doing the public a solid.  Almost despite himself, perhaps, he did some good.   Then fate brought him an opportunity to vault into a different game entirely, and he seized the chance, making no pretense to himself or anyone else about his motives.  With Gillian (and how many others?) the harm  in which he had a hand was lifelong and disfiguring, but confined in scope and range.  The perpetrator was a powerful local pervert, not a new and expanding national enterprise fueled by blood. To be a bootlegger was to be a war profiteer forced to know and name the casualties.  

 

The first time he did it, it seems he did it to distinguish himself, to change his fate.  The second time, he did it for the money, of which he had plenty.  The alternative, I think he told us, was to stand by and let some other man gain the profit and the power that came with it, to let some other man call the shots in his hometown -- or worse, to try to stand in his way.  Nucky probably might have said, "We only get the choices that we get."  

 

But it wasn't really only those two times that Nucky faced a fork in the road. Each time he arrived at a point where he had to choose and found himself alone, he might have wondered why.  

[Cool Breeze]

They showed the back of Narcisse's head in the preview for the series finale.  

 

With any luck, something will go into it.

[HumblePi]

Two of my favorite actors these five seasons were Elias "Eli" Thompson played by Shea Whigham. Eli's character went under several extreme transformations, probably more than any other character. He started as a haughty Sheriff and ended up a broken man who always had to learn his lessons the hard way. Nothing was easy for Eli.

 

Gillian, played by Gretchen Mol was outstanding. She just brought that character to life in every scene she was in. She did horrible things including seducing her own son and committing murder. But I never wanted to see Gillian get what she deserved because she was so messed up in her head.  I missed seeing enough of Gillian this season. I hope that at least they will give her some great last scenes next week. Gillian is a survivor.

 

When you think of all the characters over the past five seasons, there's only a handful that really were memorable to me. Nucky, Eli, Gillian, Jimmy, Nelson Van Alden, Richard Harrow, Al Capone, Gyp Rosetti and the butcher, Manny Horvitz. These were all powerful characters with amazing actors. The other cast members were very good but these were just outstanding in my mind.

[txhorns79]

But I never wanted to see Gillian get what she deserved because she was so messed up in her head.  I missed seeing enough of Gillian this season. I hope that at least they will give her some great last scenes next week. Gillian is a survivor.

 

You know, I never saw Gillian as being messed up in the head.  I think she's had a horrible life, and I would consider that as some mitigation for what she did later, but I always had the impression she was very calculating and knew exactly what she was doing.  I mean, she seems to know quite clearly that her "temporary insanity" verdict over killing fake Jimmy is total BS.  

[lucindabelle]

But you can be messed up without being irrational. I think of messed up as meaning having issues and neuroses, not being crazy, poor Gillian was a victim of abuse and like many abused as children sexually she had a lack of boundaries as an adult. I liked her least when she was the madam because she was mean to the nice whore who loved tommy, but I really hoped she'd get her happy ending with a business man. She is beautiful and she'd have been a good wife. I loved her little lie about how he proposed to her when she was so young,,l there's a part of her dying to remake her life. She got a terrible deal from the moment she was born. Really, she had a harder life even than Margaret, who ran away and got married to an abuser. Nobody cared about Gillian, ever. Overall she hurt a lot fewer people than richard or Nucky, and I want her to be saved. I feel that she was never mean just for the hell of it, though yes, she could be mean.

I read that about the black woman being based on a real character and now I can't find out where! But I'm guessing it's true because otherwise it is a big risk. I wasn't sure she was a lawyer though I thought she was a secretary, but yes, there were always some black people in be bite collar jobs, always. Similarly there were always some women doctors and lawyers even in the 19th century, not a lot, but some.

[Kitkat52]

I really can't add to the great insightful comments here. Just this: I will miss this show terribly.

[RealityGal]

I really can't add to the great insightful comments here. Just this: I will miss this show terribly.

me too.  Maybe killing off all my favorite characters was a way to ease me into losing the show, and now that everyone is gone it makes it a little easier.  Its like that last day of summer camp where you're so sad to leave all your friends and the good times you had, but then as each of your friends gets picked up by their parents you realize its all over and it makes it a little easier when your mom shows up in the Astro van to take you home.

[Avaleigh]

I agree with Monty Clift (great username btw!) that it's too early to say if anything has been retconned regarding how Gillian came to the attention of the Commodore.

 

In this episode we saw that Gillian had run away from Nucky and Mabel's so I'm guessing that with the help of the dress Mabel gave her that's how she ends up being chosen to be one of King Neptune's Consorts. They had those barflies who robbed Nucky bring the Consort thing up for a reason and I assumed it was to jog our memories about how Gillian first attracted the Commodore's attention. Gillian mentioned that she'd basically had a wonderful day on the beach prior to having been brought to the Commodore and we didn't see her have that yet. (Not that I necessarily expect us to but since we're getting all of these flashbacks I can see us getting one last pageant-like scene of old time AC.) I think Nucky is going to recognize Gillian when the Commodore points her out to him and Nucky is then going to take advantage of the coincidence. 

Could the fact that Gillian ran away means that perhaps she finds the Commodore on her own. I thought the original story was that the commodore first saw her when she was crowned "Miss Boardwalk" and had Nucky introduce him, but it seems they have reconed that story from first season.

 

 

I definitely don't think that Gillian found the Commodore on her own. They've made too much of a point over Nucky's guilt at his involvement in ruining Gillian's life for it to turn out that Nucky isn't the one who brought her into the Commodore's sick world. Initially my thoughts were that Mabel would find out about what Nucky had done and that this would forever sour their marriage but now I'm wondering how she could ever have found out? Does Gillian try to go to her for help one last time?

 

The other thing that's interesting to me is that this all happened around the time Mabel was pregnant. Since we're in the stretch of wrapping things up I'm guessing that this is supposed to be *the* pregnancy where Mabel gives birth to their only child, a premature boy (?) who doesn't live long. I wonder if any stress Nucky put her under contributed to her going into an early labor? Nucky's guilt regarding what happened to Mabel and their child is already understandable without this extra element but I admit that I would kind of like it if Mabel being upset about what Nucky did to a child who needed their help (help that Mabel was willing to give even if Nucky wasn't) ended up being a factor in terms of her going into an early labor. There's something appropriate to me about Nucky having this evil deed come back on him in all kinds of ways that he wouldn't have predicted or imagined.*

 

I wonder if there was ever any talk of Nucky and Mabel raising Gillian's child prior to Mabel's suicide? That seems like it would have been a reasonable solution but maybe it wasn't an option. I'm assuming that Jimmy was born in 1898 since he has to be born when Gillian is still 13 and Gillian was originally brought to the Commodore six weeks before her thirteenth birthday. I'm also thinking that they are going to do a retcon with Mabel's date of death. It really does seem like some of the most important moments in Nucky's life all happened around the same time. 

 

*Seriously, it might be a stretch in a way but I honestly think that a lot of the bad things that have happened to Nucky and a lot of the shit that he's had to deal with over the years might never have happened if he hadn't made the decision to help the Commodore rape young girls. I can see it even connecting to the way Nucky lost Billie. Would Gillian have encouraged Gyp & co to bomb Babette's if she didn't have such hatred for Nucky for everything that he'd taken from her? 

Edited October 21, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ganesh]

The problem with the time jump this year is that it seems Luciano and Lansky just woke up one morning and said, "Hey, let's kill Nucky Thompson."  I think Luciano wants the Italians to control everything, but to me, there hasn't been enough explanation as to why Luciano came to this conclusion.

 

TPTBs may assume we know something of Luciano's history as well. He is pretty famous for inventing the mafia. On the show this year, he's made mention of making things Italians Only, and the show had him propose Murder Inc., to Capone. He's been pretty consistent with the "old guys retiring" too, and Nucky is one of the old guys and Not Italian. The other old boss was fine with Nucky being "Malta", but Luciano isn't. 

[buttercupia]

So sorry to see this show ending.  I actually cried at the end of this ep, with Gillian's letter.  Everything just seems so sad and desolate heading into the final episode.

[Pallas]

Young Gillian noted to Deputy Nucky that if he didn't send her back to the orphanage, she could make herself useful by caring for Mabel and the baby, when it came.  We know that Nucky will come to condemn himself for not having been attentive to Mabel and the child, immediately after the birth.  He busied himself with other matters for "the County": perhaps, even, dealing with the aftermath of Gillian's ruin?

 

Another fatal choice, that redounded on two young mothers and their children.  Nucky, the story's original friendless child, chose to make his way by allying with the patriarchy he loathed, in the form of his father, and feared, in the form of the Commodore -- not by advocating for the vulnerable women he loved.    

[Avaleigh]

Maybe I'm being sentimental because the show's winding down, but I felt sorry for young Gillian, especially after she was all dressed up.  She seemed so eager to please and desperate for Nucky's approval and that, contrasted with the jaded woman that she will become, made me sad.

It took me back to the scene of her in the season 3 finale after Gyp injected her with the heroin. Nucky comes up to her and she's mentally taken back to the first time she was brought to the Commodore's house. She tells Nucky that she did what she was told and says something like "I was good. I was good but he did something very bad to me." She absolutely was eager to please and seemed like she would have done almost anything to live with Nucky and Mabel.

 

Word too, to whoever pointed out that Leander is one of the biggest assholes on this show who got away scot free with every vile thing he ever did. That he's the man responsible for bringing Gillian down and did so because of his long friendship with the Commdore absolutely disgusts me. He didn't even do it because he wanted justice for the guy she murdered! Ugh, and this guy still gets to walk around being a "respectable" gentleman.

[ChipBach]

Could she be Jane Bolin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Bolin?

 

I think it is Mabel Walker Willebrandt. The time is a little off, but see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabel_Walker_Willebrandt

 

I read that about the black woman being based on a real character and now I can't find out where! But I'm guessing it's true because otherwise it is a big risk. I wasn't sure she was a lawyer though I thought she was a secretary, but yes, there were always some black people in be bite collar jobs, always. Similarly there were always some women doctors and lawyers even in the 19th century, not a lot, but some.

 Based on the time line I would think the character better fits Jane Bolin as opposed to Mabel Walker Willebrandt.  Nice to read about both of them, I just added two new hero's to my all-time-hero-list...

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

When [Nucky gets to Bedlam to rescue her] Gillian will have had a lobotomy or all her teeth will be pulled out.

I suspect she's facing a hysterectomy.  A metaphoric excision of her being-female.  Judging from the scars of her fellow inmate.  And from Wikipedia  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_hysteria:

 

 

 

Female hysteria was a once-common medical diagnosis, made exclusively in women, which is today no longer recognized by medical authorities as a medical disorder. Its diagnosis and treatment were routine for many hundreds of years in Western Europe. Hysteria was widely discussed in the medical literature of the 19th century. Women considered to be suffering from it exhibited a wide array of symptoms, including faintness, nervousness, sexual desire, insomnia, fluid retention, heaviness in the abdomen, muscle spasm, shortness of breath, irritability, loss of appetite for food or sex, and "a tendency to cause trouble".[1] In extreme cases, the woman might be forced to enter an insane asylum or to undergo surgical hysterectomy.

 

 

 

[TV Diva Queen]

Does anyone think that Eli was coerced into going to visit his son?  It just seems odd that Eli happened to be there when his son was getting kidnapped.  Eli was acting all strange, at first I thought he was embarrassed to have his son see him so desolate, but then I starting thinking that his facial expressions were more than shame.