S03.E02: Sara

[JenMcSnark]

It was jarring to me, though, how he and Felicity were with each other in the very first scene - like nothing monumental had happened last week.  I get trying to make sure you can still work with each other on Arrow Business but that was odd.  And when Felicity was crying, Roy seemed to be looking at Oliver to gauge what to do, like "Are you hugging her or should I? 'Cause she really needs one of us to hug her right now. No? OK, I'll do it."

 

EBR was terrific in her scenes as well - she was on the verge in every scene.  For someone who has pieced together a family carefully (and has major abandonment issues, which were NOT helped by the latest stuff with Oliver), it seemed fitting that she was grieving openly.  Plus she and Sara had formed a friendship that was intense because of the nature of what they do.  She had saved Sara's life at one point, too. 

 

Tommy - wish there'd been more with him but I enjoyed what we got.  And the final scene with him and Oliver was gut wrenching.  I miss Tommy!

 

And, finally, Sara.  I didn't need to see her death scene again.  I hope that marks the last time that happens. She deserved so much better.  First a sucker punch death, then the dumpster and, finally, stored in an honest to God fridge. 

 

For a show that plays with it's mythology well enough to know how to work with symbols, I cannot think of a more offensive series of acts to truly trash a character.  And the show is patting itself on the back for putting together a 'love letter.' 

 

If that's how they address the death of a character that they profess to love & respect, I can't even fathom how they can explain this or will deal with a character they don't like.

 

and YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thea!!  I think she's playing Merlyn, too.

 

These were things that I, in my Laurel-like ineffectual rage about this episode, neglected to mention.  And the bolded parts are stated in a great way I hadn't really thought about or could articulate as well as you did. Kudos to you.  This is why I love this forum.  So many intelligent, thought provoking comments.  

[statsgirl]

The cops wouldn't know about the LoA; Quentin barely knows.  They would probably identify her as the female vigilante in the city but since the anti-vigilante task force has been disbanded, they're not looking to arrest her. And even if Quentin had some grief because his daughter was a vigilante, at least she would be alive.

ETA: I miss Tommy. When it was mentioned that Tommy was monitoring Oliver's email, asides from getting emotional at what an awesome friend he was, I thought "That is such a Felicity thing to do" and then I got irrationally upset that we were robbed of the chance to see the two of them interact.

That would have been awesome.  Tommy could have gone to Felicity for advice about Laurel since he couldn't go to Oliver (past and present history).

 

I get that this show is about Oliver Queen (NOT Laurel Lance) but they do miss some good things focusing just on him.

[Moya the Leviathan]

Haha, it was intentional. I can't remember which TWoP forum it originated from but it was basically the word used for terrible plot points involving a character's destiny.

 

 

Well, I hope it was the movies subforum.  The original Back to the Future makes this malapropism. George McFly (sci-fi geek way before it was cool) tells Lorraine that he is her density, err, destiny.  Lorraine barely recognizes that she and George are classmates.  

[olicityfan25]

I'm really starting get a little...mehh with Arrow recently. I know that Felicity is a board favorite and most on here would love an entire episode of just her, but I thought they showed her too much on an episode about Sara Lance. I wish there had been more Ollie, Quintin, and Laurel as the people who are/were closest to Sara.

 

I liked that Laurel was more aggressive tonight and not taking any part of Olliver bossing her around. It is slowly building to who she is as BC, a partner to GA, not one of his flunkies/soldiers. (and the more interesting character between the two in the comics). Her being agressive and bossy made sense: her little sister was shot down in front of her. Most people aren't rational when loved ones die a violent death, much less so when it happens in front of them. (Think Batman and how fucked in the head he is) And if you're not familiar with guns, it isn't all that surprising that she didn't know it was loaded. (Should she have checked the clip? yes...but again she wasn't thinking straight.)

 

I'm excited for her taking over as BC and they are technically following her arc in the comics (although she takes over for her mother and not her sister...who doesn't exist in the comics.)

 

And Heck yes, I'm ready for Speedy to come home next week. (Missed you Thea and Malcom!). Interested to see if they'll go the comic route with Ras Al Ghul (as he's primarily involved Batman universe if I'm remembering correctly.) where

it isn't really Ras, but Shado tricking people into thinking she is Ras.

The daughter of a cop doesn't know about guns? How about when she had a shotgun in her apartment. I just don't get this character. She serves no purpose.

[wonderwall]

I think the way the writers handled the grief of the characters could've been genius if and only if Laurel stepped up and connected with the audience (more people were excited for her becoming badass than felt bad for her. At least that's what I saw). Why? 

 

Essentially we saw Oliver and Felicity on the same journey throughout the entire episode but at different speeds and in different manners. I feel as though Felicity took Sara's death and took what Oliver said to heart and realized that she wanted more than that. She's essentially trying to get out of the rabbit hole she's created for herself and I think it's good for her. While the development was rather fast, I'm glad she's made this development nonetheless. Felicity is being active about changing her life. Then you have Oliver who's so shut off, who's so passive that his development is a bit slower. He doesn't even recognize what he wants until Felicity points him in the right direction. That's how emotionally stunted Oliver is. But in the end, Oliver essentially wants the same thing Felicity does. Oliver wants out of that rabbit hole, he wants a life. He doesn't want to die there alone and he made this realization far later than Felicity. Now the question is when is he going to act on this realization? Will he act on it at all? I hope to see that in the next episode when he brings Thea back and all the dust has settled. 

 

And then there's Laurel's journey that easily juxtaposes Oliver and Felicity's. While Oliver and Felicity want more than that life, Laurel is probably coming to realize that she doesn't want anything but that life. She wants to be in that rabbit hole and maybe it's because of her grief, maybe it's because she actually wants to be a vigilante now, that's murky and that should be addressed (but I don't think it will). Laurel's journey is the exact opposite of Oliver and Felicity's, she's on a different page than them. Hell she's in an entirely different chapter in her life. Maybe at one point she'll reach the point that Oliver and Felicity are in, but I personally hope she doesn't. I hope she devotes her life to helping people and her job because I can see Laurel Lance be that person. I don't see her as one to have a husband and kids. 

 

Unfortunately we didn't see any nuanced acting from KC to see this properly. But I honestly think that's where the writers were going with this. 

[loki567]

That was surprisingly alright. A good reminder that Sara didn't debut until season two, so it's not absolutely vital for her to be on the show. 

 

They actually kept Oliver's man-pain to acceptable levels. Enough to where you could understand where he was coming from. And his epiphany might be nice new ground for the show to cover.  

 

I always liked Thea and Willa Holland and appreciate them trying to get her into the action side of the show. But someone with her build suddenly becoming a ninja badass? Yeah, no. It's why I wanted her to get the convenient superpower last season, would have made the transition more tolerable. 

[wonderwall]

 

Does this look like Oliver's looking at Felicity? Because it does to me and it's like a punch in the gut because it sort of looks like Oliver wants to comfort her. 

 

JFC Stephen Amell...

[Anthea]

I think he is! *ugly sobbing*

He obviously comforts Laurel, because he's a friend and closer to her than the rest. But with that look he's just like "I want to cry with Felicity" :(

[pootlus]

I think the phrases "Sara died for THIS?!?!" and "Fuck off, Laurel" will be uttered a LOT by me this season.

 

So like many others I was taken out of any moment I might have been having by the bafflement over how the fuck Laurel got Sara's body to the Arrowcave single-handed.  I suppose I should be grateful that she hadn't already stripped the body of the Black Canary costume (because on this show, to me, Sara is and always will be Black Canary).

 

The episode went downhill from there and even the great Oliver/Felicity, Felicity/Ray, Diggle/Digglette (seriously, Ramsey's adoring dad expression melted my heart) and Oliver/Diggle moments couldn't save it for me.  I feel sorry for Amell who once again brought some amazing emotion to the character of Oliver Queen.

 

Hope Malcolm and Thea come back to Starling (or Star, as I'm presuming it will be by season's end) and put a few arrows in Laurel.  Or they could just turn over the show to the glorious fucked-upness that will be that parent/child relationship (the eyefucking alone will be GLORIOUS) until someone sees sense and ditches the Lance sister who should have died to start with.

 

Edit: Oh and not telling Quentin (and Dinah) so that they could grieve?  Fuck OFF, Laurel.

 

See.

Edited October 17, 2014 by pootlus

[Gwen-Stacys]

The daughter of a cop doesn't know about guns? How about when she had a shotgun in her apartment. I just don't get this character. She serves no purpose.

I also came back and said that 1) It wasn't her gun so her not knowing it wasn't loaded after they showed her loading it in an earlier scene isn't that far fetched 2)She lives in America where my 80 years old great aunt can (and probably does knowing her) can own a shotgun/hand gun without knowing how to use it. 3)While she does have experience with guns, I repeat, it wasn't her gun and she'd loaded it in an earlier scene. 4) She does serve a purpose, just because a few people dislike her character doesn't diminish that fact

[Ceylon5]

I also came back and said that 1) It wasn't her gun so her not knowing it wasn't loaded after they showed her loading it in an earlier scene isn't that far fetched 2)She lives in America where my 80 years old great aunt can (and probably does knowing her) can own a shotgun/hand gun without knowing how to use it. 3)While she does have experience with guns, I repeat, it wasn't her gun and she'd loaded it in an earlier scene. 4) She does serve a purpose, just because a few people dislike her character doesn't diminish that fact

 

There are bigger problems with this scene than just Laurel and the unloaded gun:

First, how did she know which drawer the gun was in?  

Second, she doesn't actually at any point load the gun; all she has time to do is grab it from the drawer before Oliver immediately takes it from her.  Then he dumps it on the table, walks away and doesn't touch it again, leaving Laurel to eye it with the intention of snagging it again.  We know she didn't load it after that because it was unloaded when she tried to shoot it, and Oliver doesn't touch it again, so he couldn't have unloaded it.

Third, why was Oliver so sure the gun was unloaded?  Maybe they have a rule in the lair (that Laurel doesn't know) that all guns are put away unloaded, but how could he be so sure that Laurel would be so dumb as to not check whether the random gun she randomly took from a random drawer was actually loaded before she took herself into a life-and-death situation with said gun?  Or maybe he knew she'd do that because he knows her in her bones?  

 

It's just a stupidly written plot-line that makes no sense and, as always, does Laurel absolutely no favours.

 

I think we need to introduce a new acronym for talking about this show - ISNPL for Incredibly Stupid Nonsensical Plot-Line.  

[doesntworkonwood]

Objectively, I can understand why Laurel played such a big part in this episode. Sara's just died and she's her sister, so she'll have to. But that still doesn't mean that I don't cringe every time KC comes on scene. The only thing that's getting me through the next couple of episodes is the fact

that episode five is about felicity and I have been waiting for such a long time for this. 

 

I don't think that Laurel serves a purpose, besides in season one where she was just there to add drama and angst for Oliver. She has no skills besides apparently blackmailing people and using her dad as an excuse to get away with things. We've never been shown that she's a good lawyer. She's spent a lot of time being a plot device rather than an actual character, and I don't believe that we're going to get away from that (no matter how hard TIIC try)

 

@Ceylon5 The entire scene was contrived.

[tv echo]

Even if you don't want to reveal that Sara was the masked blonde vigilante, there was no reason to keep the death of Sara Lance a secret.  Everyone welcomed her back with that big party last season, so the city at least thinks she is alive.  When Sara left to rejoin the LOA, there was probably a cover story of some sort - like Sara moved away to live with her mother or is traveling abroad.  So they could have made up a cover story for her death, like she was killed overseas and brought home, or she was murdered in a mugging in Starling City, anything.  So why not reveal her death and have a public burial?

 

It just seems like the EPs just plain forgot that Sara's being alive last season was made public.  

 

The EPs also often seem to forget that the mother, Dinah Lance, is alive and living in Central City.  No mention or debate - even by Laurel - as to whether or not to notify her in this episode.  That was just cruel, considering Dinah first appeared on the show in the episode when she thought she had a clue that Sara was still alive (the photo) and was desperate to find her, and then she returned in the episode where she had the joyful reunion with the alive Sara.

Edited October 17, 2014 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

If you listen closely in the scene Oliver takes the gun from Laurel, you can actually hear the sound of him checking the gun right before he puts it down. There's no clip in his hand as he walks away, but I dunno, maybe the Arrow pants have pockets and he stashed the clip. Or he just checked it was indeed unloaded, thus safe to be left on a rando table.

What I really don't get is WHY would Oliver just assume Laurel would walk out with an unloaded gun. I would have imagined he knows that she knows how to handle guns, since the show had previously established that she does.

Edited October 17, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Danny Franks]

 

It just seems like the EPs just plain forgot that Sara's being alive last season was made public.  

 

The EPs also often seem to forget that the mother, Dinah Lance, is alive and living in Central City.  No mention or debate - even by Laurel - as to whether or not to notify her in this episode.

 

In their haste to dump her into the nearest open grave and move on as though she never existed, I imagine there are a fair number of things that the EPs forgot about Sara. But my guess is that you won't hear very much about her, one way or another, once the 'mystery' of why the EPs killed her is resolved.

[tv echo]

Taking my reply to the Bitterness thread.

[Lokiberry]

Hey, I found the Raylicity scene on youtube, and it was really cute/creepy/sweet, but I can't find the Tommy flashback(s). Can anybody point me in the right direction? I'd really like to see it, but I have no intention of sitting through a Laurel-centric episode. Ever again.

On a related note, when glee was circling the drain last season, intrepid fans made edits of each episode that cut out all the offending parts, and put them up as a kind of community service. Wouldn't that be great if someone did that for Arrow, cutting out all the Laurel parts, and leaving the rest?

[Gwen-Stacys]

There are bigger problems with this scene than just Laurel and the unloaded gun:

First, how did she know which drawer the gun was in?  

Second, she doesn't actually at any point load the gun; all she has time to do is grab it from the drawer before Oliver immediately takes it from her.  Then he dumps it on the table, walks away and doesn't touch it again, leaving Laurel to eye it with the intention of snagging it again.  We know she didn't load it after that because it was unloaded when she tried to shoot it, and Oliver doesn't touch it again, so he couldn't have unloaded it.

Third, why was Oliver so sure the gun was unloaded?  Maybe they have a rule in the lair (that Laurel doesn't know) that all guns are put away unloaded, but how could he be so sure that Laurel would be so dumb as to not check whether the random gun she randomly took from a random drawer was actually loaded before she took herself into a life-and-death situation with said gun?  Or maybe he knew she'd do that because he knows her in her bones?  

 

It's just a stupidly written plot-line that makes no sense and, as always, does Laurel absolutely no favours.

 

I think we need to introduce a new acronym for talking about this show - ISNPL for Incredibly Stupid Nonsensical Plot-Line.  

 

Oh yea, I can agree with it being completely riddled with holes, but I also know when I watch certain shows there's going to be a few things I'm going to have to handwave (specifically for shows on The CW...I'd already have frown lines from all the "really?" faces I pulled if I didn't). Same as when Felicity told Ray to freeze the bomb using the AC....(and on top of that, how the people right behind him didn't notice a damn thing. If the air coming out of that vent was cold enough to freeze a damn bomb, those people would've felt the temperature change from where they were standing). I'm honestly waiting for the day they have Felicity hack a person...or a virus, because, you know, that works. (have they not done that last one already?)

 

But, like I said, I've become an expert at handwavium, to the point where I automatically fill in the logic holes as I go along.

[insubordination]

• Watched the Tommy scenes out of curiosity. Will FF HK from now on though. Really low-quality stuff.

Was glad Felicity wants a life outside the cave. She would be insane if she didn’t move on. I'm glad she didn't fawn over Oliver too much. She'll only get hurt again.

Does the show have to pay Colton Haynes per syllable? It seems like he wants to say something, but the producers can’t afford it.  Wasn’t he once a character?

I feel like the writers gave me another big ‘Fuck You!’ (Hello Slade plot) watching the funeral scene.  I just kept thinking, ‘This is no Scooby Gang’.  At least give us Sin or something. Maybe Sara's Dad or Mum?

It was good to have Diggle dialogue - More please, but even he can’t save the show as appealing as DR is.

Maybe Stephen Amell was good, maybe the stunts were good, but I didn’t give a fuck because of how they just killed Sara for Laurel.  It was just such an undignified and pointless death that all Sara's scenes and backstory last season were just a big waste of time and ultimately meant nothing. She should have just died on the boat. That's my time and I could have done something more productive with it than watching all that for no reason. I feel stupid.

I doubt I will last the rest of the season. Having Laurel there just felt disjointed. She’s a square peg fucking up a round hole.

Thanks for showing me Sara getting killed again. I want to see that at least four or five times on the "previously". Maybe throw in Moira’s death too. Shado’s? Apparently, it's *shocking* (titillating) to repeatedly watch women being murdered.

The embroidery on the baby’s clothes was just in-your-face and completely unnecessary (much like LL). Did Lyla embroider it lovingly off-screen? Is that the love letter to Sara? For fuck’s sake I already heard what he was calling the baby and it didn’t appease me one bit. Don't drive the point home with embroidery. Diggle's big hand touching his baby was nice though.

Paul Blackthorne looks good bald, but his character felt off tonight. Maybe it’s the shit writing.

I think this show is officially annoying me more than it’s entertaining me. It was also true of the last half of season 2 (post-lunge). I do want to follow this Ray thing (despite the 50 Shades buying of the company) and the Malcolm/Thea thing, but I know they’ll just disappoint me. I'm a really slow learner apparently.

They’ll probably fridge every female on the show except one – the one that doesn’t need to be fridged because she already leaves me cold.

I’m sort of hoping this show tanks, but I’d feel sorry for SA if it did. He seems nice.

Edited October 17, 2014 by insubordination

[KirkB]

Does the show have to pay Colton Haynes per syllable? It seems like he wants to say something, but the producers can’t afford it.  Wasn’t he once a character?

 

Some actually involved in Hollywood/television production will have to confirm or deny this, but I believe there actually is a difference in how much you have to pay an actor when they just appear versus speaking.

[SonofaBiscuit]

She does serve a purpose, just because a few people dislike her character doesn't diminish that fact

 

 

Taking to Laurel thread.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Some actually involved in Hollywood/television production will have to confirm or deny this, but I believe there actually is a difference in how much you have to pay an actor when they just appear versus speaking.

 

I think you're right, there's a difference between a speaking role and, well, a nonspeaking one. But Colton is a regular. I think he gets the same pay per episode whether he even appears/speaks in an ep or not. I actually appreciate how they're not pushing Roy Harper to my face as much. They just let him lurk in the background until they need to pull the Thea thread.

[calliope1975]

Some actually involved in Hollywood/television production will have to confirm or deny this, but I believe there actually is a difference in how much you have to pay an actor when they just appear versus speaking.

 

If Colton's a series regular, he's getting paid whether he's there or not. For day players, though, yes. Principals have lines, extras are the people roaming around in the background not saying anything, and the pay is very disparate.

[Lantern7]

In the crapfest that was the episode (a "love letter"? Seriously?!?), I forgot to note that they named a street for Jeff Lemire. Considering the bang-up job he did on Green Arrow, I say he deserved that.

[wonderwall]

So basically writing wise for Laurel in episode 2 was shoddy at best:

 

• When Laurel brought in Sara, it was meant to be emotional but the audience was taken out of the scene because they were left to wonder, how the hell did she bring her there?
• Laurel saying "this isn't fair we only just got her back" which is also supposed to be emotional but left me questioning why she was so okay and smiley when Sara was leaving with the LoA? Obviously being an assassin is dangerous and Sara could've died after she left. 
• When Laurel says "This isn't right, she deserves a proper burial", that scene doesn't pack an emotional punch, in fact, it made me roll my eyes because it was Laurel's decision not to tell her father about Sara, if she did, Sara would've gotten a proper burial. So Laurel is basically condemning her own idea which is stupid.
• Laurel almost shooting Lacroix was meant to be emotional but it wasn't because the audience was left to wonder, how the hell did she not know the gun was not loaded? She's handled guns before. Even my friend who's a casual viewer texted me and said, yeah, she should've known. Which in turn made her look incompetent.
• Laurel saying "I can't believe I almost killed him" in disbelief was ridiculous because she killed before and felt no remorse for that and it made me roll my eyes. And no, Oliver, what matters isn't that she didn't kill him. What matters is that she tried to kill someone again. smh
• Laurel's supposed bad-ass scene wasn't bad ass because the guy was innocent and was in a hospital. And even if for a fleeting moment she did look badass, she had to go to the window to see who shot that arrow thus screaming how stupid she is. At that moment I was left hoping Lacroix would shoot an Arrow at Laurel killing her too.
• Laurel was made to look caring when she didn't have the heart to tell Quentin about Sara, instead not telling Quentin made her look weak, insensitive, selfish, and just plain stupid.

 

Why don't the writers think anything through when it comes to Laurel? It makes me think that she's just an afterthought for them and that they actually don't like Laurel at all.

Edited October 17, 2014 by wonderwall

[Guest]

You know, thinking about it, I would have preferred it if Laurel hadn't been all 'I MUST AVENGE MY SISTER' in this episode. I think it would have been better to see her struggle emotionally instead of jumping straight into anger and vengeance. She could have sat staring at Sara's body, a little lost at what has happened while everyone works around her. Maybe she struggles with wanting to have a drink but not being able to. I mean, the one moment I felt a shred of anything for Laurel was during that downtime in her apartment when she's cuddling Sara's shark (before it was ruined by the less than subtle foreshadowing with the jacket). There needed to be more of that and then maybe next episode we could see her loss becoming anger the longer they don't find who killed Sara and she slowly realizes that she needs to channel it into something else.

 

Ugh. They really missed the mark on all levels with this. Now I'm just not interested. 

[benteen]

In the crapfest that was the episode (a "love letter"? Seriously?!?), I forgot to note that they named a street for Jeff Lemire. Considering the bang-up job he did on Green Arrow, I say he deserved that.

 

A love letter...that reminds me of Rick Berman calling the Star Trek Enterprise finale a love letter to either the fans or the series or Star Trek in general.

[statsgirl]

That's a good parallel, benteen. What Berman meant was he put in everything that he loved (Ryker, ST:TNG; not Enterprise), and I guess MG and AK put in this everything they love, meaning Laurel and not Sara.

[wonderwall]

That's a good parallel, benteen. What Berman meant was he put in everything that he loved (Ryker, ST:TNG; not Enterprise), and I guess MG and AK put in this everything they love, meaning Laurel and not Sara.

Which is ironic because the episode showed that AK and MG love Felicity more than they love Laurel. 

 

Laurel was all over the place in terms of writing and development as I've pointed out a couple of posts above, http://forums.previously.tv/topic/16460-s03e02-sara/page-6#entry478652

[JenMcSnark]

I enjoyed Felicity’s snapping back at him but I don’t think she was trying to shock him into awareness.  After being criticized for not bringing her “A” game, she reacted resentfully and impulsively, the way you do when emotions are running high.  To her credit, she did apologize immediately afterwards and though Oliver was hurt, I think he knew that he started it first.

 

I know that if I was Felicity, after losing Sara, being bossed around in the worst way by Laurel, and especially after being talked over, criticized, and ignored by the guy who just acted like he was in love with me a few days before, I would have said worse and flipped him off on my way out the door.   I thought he got off easy.

 

I don't buy it about Oliver not grieving so that others can.  The posts here about Felicity telling Oliver how to grieve and how dare she...  Isn't that what Oliver did?  He basically tells her to stop grieving because he needs her A game.  Same thing as her disagreeing with his way of (not) grieving.  

 

And I guess that can put the end to the Mary Sue comments because a Mary Sue would never make such a mean comment to the hero, nor would she walk out to go work for the enemy.

[Grammaeryn]

I have hated Laurel from day 1 so a lot of this episode felt like nails on chalkboard. Can there be a quick abbreviation for Laurel hate that each post can begin with to get it out of the way? Because seriously the hate needs no explanation. Ooh, INAL means "I'm not a lawyer" Lawyer=Laurel...

The thing that really killed me was Oliver calling Thea needing to talk to her. It felt so real, sad, and needed. They just lost their mom and Oliver was seeing Laurel deal with a dead sister. If a friend's mom died, I would be calling my mom for days.

[statsgirl]

Wasn't Felicity bringing her 'A' game anyway? She had multiple computer programs running for facial recognition and everything else, and when they finally got a clue, it was Felicity backtracking LaCroix and figuring out that he was calling his mother that finally found the guy.   Accusing her of not bringing her 'A' game was just wrong but it was typical Oliver, snapping other people because he's so frustrated he can't do more.

 

Back at SDCC, KC, CL and EBR came a day late because they were working.  I've been trying to think of what scene they could have been working on that didn't involved any of the others but I got nuthin'. Any ideas?

[foreverevolving]

Probably the Lair scene, where Fakanary is barking orders. Was CL laying in the background or did they already stick her in the freezer?

[Orion]

Back at SDCC, KC, CL and EBR came a day late because they were working.  I've been trying to think of what scene they could have been working on that didn't involved any of the others but I got nuthin'. Any ideas?

 

One of the EPs, I want to say Guggenheim but with a quick glance I couldn't find it, tweeted someone who questioned him on it yesterday or the day before that KC and CL were filming Sara's death scene and "he couldn't remember what EBR was filming." And then he got snappy and asked if that person was accusing him of lying.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Orion

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

I don't buy it about Oliver not grieving so that others can.  The posts here about Felicity telling Oliver how to grieve and how dare she...  Isn't that what Oliver did?  He basically tells her to stop grieving because he needs her A game.  Same thing as her disagreeing with his way of (not) grieving.

 

Yep!  I guess it is only wrong for Felicity to tell Oliver how to behave, but it's not wrong for Oliver to tell Felicity how to behave and then chastise her for not bringing her "A" game.   Frankly, I don't see Felicity's actions as somehow worse than Oliver's in that scene. They both said things they should not have said and they both apologized immediately after.

[tessaray]

 

Wouldn't that be great if someone did that for Arrow, cutting out all the Laurel parts, and leaving the rest?

 

I would love that.  I'm missing Arrow.  Every time I look at the episodes on the dvr, I think maybe I could stomach the change in direction but not yet anyway.  

 

The thing is, I probably would have broken down and watched this episode anyway if Sara's funeral had included Dinah and Quentin.  And wouldn't Sara getting killed AGAIN maybe set Lance against the whole vigilante lifestyle and add some real conflict with Oliver and DLL, budding vigilante? ETA:  And if not conflict, at least some angst would have been nice (and cathartic). I suppose when they find out down the road, it will just be when they need a ready made wedge for Arrow/Lance. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by tessaray

[yellowfred]

So, the one thing (well, the main thing, at least) that I can't figure out this episode is, if the writers and producers like Laurel as much as their decisions would indicate, why don't they write her better?  Like, I know that some of the emotional beats didn't end up being as strong as they maybe could have been for acting reasons, but even if every one of them had been played perfectly, Laurel's arc this episode still wouldn't have made sense as far as who her character is and who they're trying to get her to be.

 

I mean, I get that Laurel needs something to do, some objective to focus on, when she's grieving.  She needs to feel useful.  That's a fairly common and completely understandable reaction.  It's also totally in character for her.  I even get her lashing out and bossing people around, because needing to feel like you're in control of something is another totally understandable reaction to losing someone you loved.  Again, it's also in character.  Unfortunately, that's pretty much where my empathy for her mindset ends.

 

I don't understand why she would want Oliver and Co. to be the only ones investigating.  Not that Starling City's police force has any kind of stellar record, but there are at least a few things they could have done to help.  Even if they didn't do much, at the very least, it would mean that she'd have a possibility of prosecuting Sara's murderer for Sara's murder (so, logically, they wouldn't let her try that case, but I don't know if the Starling city DA is actually that picky).  That should have been her avenue for channeling her grief in this episode.  Then, if working through the legal approach ultimately failed, she'd have a greater motivation to try the vigilante approach herself.

 

Instead, we have her trying the vigilante approach and being largely unsuccessful.  Then, on top of that, we have pretty much everyone agreeing that dying young, violently, and largely anonymously is both sucky and possibly inevitable for people who choose the life that they've chosen.  What, in any of that, would set Laurel on the path to wanting to take up her sister's mantle? 

 

 

Also, is anyone else concerned about how shallow that grave was? The stench is going to be unbearable soon, unless Oliver or Diggle miraculously have mortuary sciences training.

 

Well, at least that'll make it easier for Nyssa and Sin (I've decided the two of them would work together on this) to dig her up and bring her to the Lazarus Pit.  Sure, she's probably been dead a bit too long, but maybe putting her in that literal refrigerator will have kept her fresh enough that it'll still work.

[wonderwall]

Watched the episode again... And just when I think the writing can't be any sloppier for Laurel she says something along the lines of this: 

 

Laurel: "She took an arrow to the chest"

Me: No dumbass, she took 3 arrows to the abdomen. Honestly, you would think that she would take the time to notice when she was dragging her sister's body to the arrow cave... 

 

Smh writers. I really should make a drinking game out of this. Every time Laurel says or does something ridiculous or stupid I should take a drink... Probably be sloshed by the end of every episode tbqh. 

[poetgirl925]

I finally watched the rest of the episode. Great ending scene with Thea and Malcolm, but on the whole this wasn't a good episode. Someone else here said they think the show is missing the emotional beats with Oliver and Felicity, and I agree something is missing there. They moved so fast in the premiere, and now they've done a 180 where those things that happened are being ... kind of ignored? At best, they're talking around them. This isn't the "raw talk" I imagined. I don't know. It's kind of like when they switched gears mid-S2 and the Oliver/Sara thing happened, and then the finale happened. I spent months wrapping my head around the 'I love you' - real or not? I think the story supports it, but many things on this show just move TOO DAMN FAST. Please, EPs, take a moment to properly develop your characters and stories! The audience will thank you.

Now, Laurel. I don't like Laurel. I really haven't liked her since the second episode of the series. Why? She basically has three settings - bitter, angry, and sad. Sometimes they combine them and she's sad/bitter or angry/bitter, etc. Sure I get why, but I stopped trying to care a long time ago because going by this show, her life hasn't been that bad. Quentin had it just as bad as she did since he lost a daughter and a marriage, but he's grown as a character in 2 seasons. Laurel? Not so much since we're still seeing her deal the same old way - anger and bitterness. This is not something I want to watch with Laurel. I am so, so tired of it. It makes me want to turn off the TV, and this week I did. In the middle of the episode, something I've never done before.

My biggest peeve here was how Laurel went into the lair and argued with Oliver, wanted things done her way, etc. This is the one issue I usually had with Sara in s2. This show is called Arrow. It is about Oliver Queen. That is his lair and his team, and Laurel has not earned the right to any of that. At least with Sara, she and Oliver were equals on the vigilante front and I knew the her LoA training explained her approach. Laurel, on the other hand, just does whatever the hell she wants and doesn't appear to think about what happens next. If that arrow hadn't killed the guy in the hospital, she'd be out of a job again for what she did, and rightfully so. I know thy want to show her being "badass" but really, show? That's not the way to go about it. If you want me to resent Laurel breathing air on this show, then fine - you're on the right track after Sara's death and this episode. And I have never been an outright hater of this character - my issues with Blind Spot, for instance, were more about writing than character. I was going into this season with hope we'd see something different (read better) with Laurel but no. Same old, same old, and just like season 2 it sucks.

Her decision not to tell Quentin was nonsensical. He has to find out at some point, and knowing she lied won't help. This attitude Laurel has, that things are better her way and everyone else can hit the highway if they don't like it? This is not doing Laurel any favors, show. Her personal decisions haven't been great - one led to her needing to be rescued and another character dying in s1. Before that she was determined to marry a womanizing playboy even though Sara tried to tell her she was living in a fairy tale. In s2 she stole her father's pain meds, drank, and blackmailed people to get her way.

I think the idea is "Look! She's Oliver's equal, not his sidekick!" But it's not earned, and that is a HUGE problem. If this is where we're headed now, a version of Arrow and Canary despite the show's name? I don't know if the other characters I like will be enough to keep me watching.

[strikera0]

Oops, just noticed this was already posted on another thread. Never mind.

Edited October 18, 2014 by strikera0

[quarks]

After chatting with some friends last night, I realized the other small issue with the Oliver/Felicity interaction last episode. It's not the fighting, or Oliver yelling at her, or Felicity snapping at him. That's all in character - including Felicity's bitchiness; she's done that before.

 

No, it's that in every episode before this where they've bitched or snapped at each other, there's been some indication later on in the episode that they are back on track - Felicity helping out the team in "Dodger" after all, Felicity bringing the one cup of coffee, the "I think you deserve better," Oliver inviting Barry to the dance, Oliver apologizing and the "you're my partner," scene, the final scene in Unthinkable where we realize that they will still get along even after he used her for bait.

 

We didn't get that in this episode. We got the anger and the snapping, but we didn't get a single back on track moment, other than Oliver watching Felicity cry at the funeral. I honestly did expect that scene to contain more hugging in general, largely from Diggle. I get the fanwanking that Oliver felt if he touched/hugged Felicity he'd either break down or wouldn't be able to let go, but meanwhile, it just felt off to me compared to previous episodes, That's not necessarily bad, since you don't want the show to fall into a rut, but  given that it was a highly emotional episode for both characters, I think my "story sense" needed more.

 

(Still agreed that Arrow is compelling television and I'll keep watching, even if moments like this get missed.)

Edited October 18, 2014 by quarks

[foreverevolving]

random thought: Felicity olive green dress... am I mistaken or is this the first time she has worn anything green?

I mean sure it's olive green but it's still green and it's a step in the right direction.

Subconscious decisions much Felicity? :-P

Edited October 18, 2014 by foreverevolving

[SmallScreenDiva]

That's one of the reasons the episode felt off for me as well, quarks. We always get the "everything is all right" with them signal at the end of an ep. But this time everything is definitely not all right. It's part of their arc this season (maybe even next if the show decides to stretch the angst past this season). There's been a massive shift in their dynamic; and it looks like both of them put up walls. I'm hoping the show proves me wrong, bu think it'll be like this for a while between Oliver and Felicity.

[GirlWednesday]

Well. All that happened. My thoughts in random order by character.

Oliver:

- the guy is trying to be a leader. What he doesn't realize is that digg and Felicity are partners and he is Roy's mentor. If he wants to lead, he needs to be more not less. He regressed since last week's I don't want you hurt because I'm not focussed on the bad guys to another I need to be a rock for all of you and not grieve. Felicity said and took back what she said. But it needed to be said. An emotionless rock does not equal a strong rock. Oliver grew alittle with his reaction to Roy (it definitely would have been different last season) and his epiphany with digg at the end. I think if the show writers showed us rather than tell us about Oliver's character growth for the rest of the season, he can be my hero. Obviously they are capable of it- this week's flash ep was a good example of it.

Digg:

I like his character. Correction I love his character. I think he will get all the quiet leader beats that were handed to Felicity last season. I'm totally ok with it. I champion this change.

Felicity:

I heart this character. This character is what brought me back to arrow in season 1. The opening scene did seem odd with Roy and arrow when we all know what happened at the hospital night before. I guess both oliver and Felicity are professionals in the lair. Good on them. Felicity's awe at Sarah's body and almost like devoted surmon was pitch perfect given her awe with sarah. Last season she reacted to sarah with insecurity that she wasn't good enough for them. This speech fit well with those feelings. Felicity's reactions were the most 'normal' of the bunch besides digg. Her reaction is the equivalent of people having sex in funerals in movies. The need to feel alive and have hope. Sadly Oliver is not the leader that can inspire hope.

Quentin: love his hair and him. I'm concerned at where his invalid status will take him. I don't want him popping pills every time he is interacting with team arrow.

LL:

Ok i get it. She has a big damn destiny or whatever. The writers are not doing KC favours. Her best scene was at the stairs with Oliver. Everything else was forced. Writers - this chick is size 2 nothing. Sarah is 5'4ish pure muscly assassin. LL could barely pick her up to hug her and cry last scene of calm. Solution. LL call Digg. Digg helps and calls team. Team walks in like whatever. Scene continues as normal. Audience disbelief is no longer suspended like a giant alien tap danced thru the lair wearing speedos. LL barking orders to Felicity - I think writers might have been going for authoritative and take charge. BUT girl- team arrow doesn't need ya. I am not a fan of this character. She is why I stopped watching in season 1 before team arrow brought me back.

The episode itself:

It didn't work for me. This entire episode would have served this LL character a lot better if she was just devastated and couldn't let go of Sarah's body. Not because she had an better relationship with Sarah but because she was just starting to. If team arrow just got tipped off by Quentin and did their thing, it would have worked. And at the end, Oliver comes back and tells LL. " Laurel We didn't get him but we will." "Yes and WE will." Walks over and puts on the jacket'i will find who did this to you Sarah". Cut to the Awesomeness of cap jack and little Thea.

I would have still hated that my Sarah is now gone but I would have appreciated LL's reaction a lot better.

Edited: for spelling

Edited October 18, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[Nanrad]

Laurel: "She took an arrow to the chest"

Me: No dumbass, she took 3 arrows to the abdomen. Honestly, you would think that she would take the time to notice when she was dragging her sister's body to the arrow cave...

 

I think most of us would've prefer if she took one to the knee...

[wonderwall]

I think most of us would've prefer if she took one to the knee...

I'd prefer it if Sara took one to the knee, paralyzing her thus making her Oracle. And Laurel 1 to the heart, thus making her dead. 

[foreverevolving]

Okay i hate to say it.. but i just watched the scene were Felicity and Fakanary are at the lair while Oliver was bike fighting Komodo and.. when she says "come on Ollie get up" it actually sounds less like an order and more like her trying to encourage him except.. it starts that way but then KC raises her voice tone and it sounds like she is ordering him.

 

once again: great line, wrong way of delivering it.

[wonderwall]

Okay i hate to say it.. but i just watched the scene were Felicity and Fakanary are at the lair while Oliver was bike fighting Komodo and.. when she says "come on Ollie get up" it actually sounds less like an order and more like her trying to encourage him except.. it starts that way but then KC raises her voice tone and it sounds like she is ordering him.

 

once again: great line, wrong way of delivering it.

You're right. It could definitely have been encouraging. But KC made it sound like a harsh demand and in comparison to Felicity's worried question, it made it seem worse. 

 

KC only has 1 mode that she does successfully, and that's bitch mode. *sigh*

[KirkB]

The funny thing is, Laurel would actually work better as a bitchy character, because that is one of KC's strengths. If she had been playing that intentionally and consistently from the beginning things might have gone so much better.

[BkWurm1]

Well, last week I jumped through hoops trying to make sense of the time line but three scenes into this episode and I gave up. 

 

How can we go from a timeline that had Laurel talking to Sara not too long after Arrow and Co sent the would be bombers into police hands while still getting to the hospital during visiting hours (so at least before say 10 pm) and then cut to the next morning with Laurel in the Lair staring at Sara who is STARING back?  A hop, skip and a jump later Oliver (Oliver, mind you, not the Arrow) is up on the roof where Sara died.  Soooooo he spent all day there?  Or are we to believe that Laurel spent all night and then all day in the Lair and Team Arrow showed up late in the afternoon???  Cut to next scene and everyone has changed clothes and it's a new day!  Yeah, I give up. 

 

I am easily distracted when Laurel is on screen so I found it funny that they took the time to drape a sheet on the steeps before KC had to sit on them.  Must protect the pretty pants suit.  Also it struck me as odd that one, Laurel complained about being in an EMPTY bar (unless I'm to believe that the storage room that Thea spent all her time stocking is still full) but the bigger thing is that Laurel CHOSE to go to the lair slash empty bar.  I know, I know, I'm being really persnickety and picking fights with Laurel but even stuff that originally only bugged me a little at the start of the episode got bumped up after she did her really stupid stuff later on.

 

Number one terrible thing she did IMO was that interrogation in the hospital.  I was so sure that he was going to turn  out to at the very least be some shady character but honestly, I don't think he was doing anything wrong at all.  He had a private business deal.  That was it, right?  A deal someone else wanted to fail, but as far I  saw on the show, there was nothing illegal about his business deal,.  Am I missing something??  Cause that would mean that she lied her way into breaking the arm of an innocent victim only to further victimize him all the way up until he is murderedr???  Huh?

 

I have this urge to blame her for his death but I guess that falls on the shoulders of the idiots who left the blinds open when an archer was out killing people (with the number of windows Arrow has smashed through, they had to have known the risk they were talking.) 

 

My very first thought when the arrow hit the poor bastard was, "And now, a little more to the right."

 

I didn't hate that Oliver comforted Laurel, I mean, who else it going to?  BUT, I kept getting this weird, icky feeling when Laurel basically threw herself at him each time.  It somehow came off as less about Laurel grieving and falling apart over Sara than her wanting to get Oliver's attention which is a terrible thing to think and I fought against it but I don't think KC sold her grief over Sara enough in those moments.  Something each time right before the hug rang untrue. 

 

In the first scene just finding Laurel in there with Sara on the table rang untrue.  Still, I believed her first line about not knowing where to go but when she launched into "It's not fair, we just got her back," nope, I was rolling my eyes, not over the line because that was soo true but out of Laurel's mouth and the way it was said...it was almost that the unfairness was too much about how Laurel was being put out rather than how horrible it was that Sara was dead. Somehow, Laurel made Sara's death about her.

 

Actually she did all throughout the episode even going so far as to not let her father (or mother, Hello!!) know they'd lost Sara.  I get that in many ways, once a person dies, it is about those left behind, but Laurel didn't, or maybe couldn't if I want to be kind, leave room for others to grieve over Sara.  She certainly didn't leave room for Oliver to do so.  She first needs to be held, then talked to, then promised vengeance, then delivered vengeance.

 

I think Oliver would have done all of that but I feel as if Laurel's hard edge doesn't invite Oliver to share in her grief, only to support her though it.  Yep, I'm blaming Laurel for Oliver thinking in order for others to grieve, he can't. 

 

Yes, it is also Oliver choosing to hide behind duty but imagine if you will if it had been Laurel that died and it was Sara that he was comforting.  Sara would IMO reach back into her childhood and tell a Laurel story but I can also easily imagine her choosing a memory that they both could share.  For all of Sara's very high walls, she just came off as more empathetic.  I can't imagine her not being aware that other would grieve. 

 

I don't want to pit Laurel against Felicity but I felt Felicity (and Diggle and Oliver in his limited way and I guess Roy, but he was pretty flat) grieved over Sara being dead but Laurel grieved over having Sara taken from her.  I don't think I'm making a big enough distinction.  I'm trying to separate one group being sad and mad and angry and wanting justice over what happened to Sara but Laurel feeling all that because what happened to her when Sara died. 

 

I think it might be a fine distinction in outlook but a big distinction in attitude. 

Edited October 19, 2014 by BkWurm1