S29.E03: Actions vs. Accusations

[blackwing]

John is an ass, but I do question the decision to vote out the physically strongest guy and best athlete. He was being judged on his past. In this game, he never said anything that bad to his own tribe. I think they will regret it. He easily made his basketball shot, he helped the team in that first obstacle course, he caught fish. Seems like he was a key team player and provider.

They should have gotten rid of Dale or Baylor.

Why is it that we have seemingly never heard from some of these people, and yet Josh gets so many Talking Heads? I swear he had at least half of them tonight. Granted, he went to Exile and was on the losing side, but still.

[bluebonnet]

I don't really see how Natalie's display is worthy of "you go, girl" props. If there was any indication she was educated vis-à-vis the subject about which she was screaming, I could see how it would be admirable for her to take a stand against xenophobia. But, absent any degree of substantive information on the Sports Illustrated article, she was really just being a dumbass loudmouth.

Oh no, I'm not suggesting she was taking a stand against bigotry.  More wondering if there was any strategy involved in it at all.  When she came about the information about John is sort of irrelevant in terms of strategy.  Swaying the opposing team to vote in your own team's favor is good game play.  Not so much when there is a lack of intent.  It doesn't seem like Natalie was yapping with any sort of strategy in mind.  It definitely seemed more like she thought she was taking a stand which was wildly inappropriate at the time based on the edit.  He hadn't said anything to her during the game and his major infraction at the time was poor sportsmanship by purposely knocking people down just because Julie was accidentally hit.  

 

Ok, Baylor, you made your bed....

What was it that John said last during that post IC altercation. I played it back several times and still didn't hear what he said.

That he would knock out Natalie's teeth if she wasn't a girl.  

[Pepper the Cat]

Natalie didn't really pay much attention to John until she heard some vague, third hand info about things done years ago.

She was just still sad that her Twinnie was gone and needed to lash out.

[bagatelle]

I hated that they voted out their strongest physical player, but more importantly, I hated that they listened to some big mouth, on the other tribe, ordering them to do so.

[LanceM]

I will laugh my ass off if after getting rid of their "strongest" player (who didn't win them anything, mind you) the orange tribe wins immunity next week. Based on the promo where they focused on the blue tribe I think it may happen.

[Superpole2000]

Having watched from the show's origins, this is my least favourite season of Survivor. I have at least three reasons why:

 

1. Blood vs. Water - Oh, the cringeworthy tears! They go from stacking large Jenga/Lego pieces to full on tears in less than 10 seconds. I don't know what to do with that because it seems so ridiculous.

 

2. Cast - Not the most captivating group, and the family dynamic shifts the focus from their individual lives (always interesting to me) to their relation within the family (too generic to be noteworthy). Flashing a graphic that says "Alec, Drew's Brother" tells me nearly nothing about Alec. When you describe a random person to someone, you don't say, "He has a brother." You might reveal their occupation, their age, and an interesting fact about them. Survivor is just de-individualizing these people, and it makes it very difficult to root for anyone or remember who they are. If they put "Alec, 22, Florida, student/surfer, idolizes father" on the screen, I'd get more absorbed by the show.

 

3. Tribal Divisions - The Brains/Brawn/Beauty and the cultural/racial divisions of the past made it so much easier to track who was on which tribe early in the game. I have no idea who is on whose team right now, which makes the challenges meaningless to me. And the team names themselves are a problem. Is it the Crapola tribe vs. the Honeypoopoo tribe? Give me something I can remember here, producers!

[sally-can-wait]

And it looked like he actually moved from the path he was on to do it. In the previous round, Julie got shoved, but it looked accidental. Like the dude was going fast and collided into her. But with John, it looked very purposeful - like he was trying to prove himself or something.

From the way it was edited, it also looked like John was spurred on by Jeremy screaming something like "your woman got rocked" right after Julie got knocked in the face. The editors quickly cut to John and he did not look happy. I think his turn was next and he took his aggression out on whomever he ran into.

Edited October 9, 2014 by mables-child

[ramble]

Meh. I don't particularly care for Rocker but I don't care for how that played out either. Natalie screaming like crazy was no surprise after (what feels like) her 12 seasons on Amazing Race. It seemed like she was enjoying stirring up trouble & being a loud mouth more than anything else. How pleasant. The part that bothers me the most is it almost appears the other tribe took direction from their opponent. While I know they have their reasons it just felt off.

I think it's about this time every year when I start griping that they give some people far too many taking heads & others none at all. I still don't know everyone but dang how can I not know Josh. He's on screen constantly.

And because it needs to be said often, "Shut up Probst." What article? Get real. He should've just asked Rocker to explain what was being referred to & canned the pretense.

[green]

Am I the only one who thought Natalie came out looking worse after the Immunity Challenge? I really don't think John would have been voted out if he wasn't know from before. Just based on what happened in the game, I've heard a lot worse things on Survivor that hasn't warranted the reaction John's been getting. 

 

I thought Natalie did great for standing up and calling John out.  I still remember when it all went down.  Rocker was totally unapologetic about it.  Basically called everyone not straight and white in America non-Americans.  Used NYC as his punching bag.  Atlanta was the team to beat back then and he was the young, stud closer on the team.  Team did the right thing and got rid of him.  That should have been the last any of us ever saw of that guy. 

 

But then Survivor rewards his crap by casting him on the show.  There should be consequences for what he did.  Not rewards like being cast on a popular reality show because of his notoriety.  Good for Natalie for speaking up for Americans who are tired of these guys being given rewards for acting horribly.

 

This was a feel-good episode, yes.  But one that should never have existed to start with.  What next, Survivor?  Which bigot will be cast next?  Just.  Do.  Not.  Stop it.  Now.  If this is the only thing you can do to make your show "interesting" then maybe it has outlived it's time.

Edited October 9, 2014 by green

[jjj]

No, as others have said, it was not up to Jeff to tell the audience what was in the article, but to elicit the information from the tribe.  If Jeff had stood there and said, "you mean the article where John was a bigot about group x,y,z," we would rightly be screaming that he was unfairly manipulating the players and the game on camera. (Yeah, I know there is behind-the-scenes manipulation!)  And John had clearly lawyered up, because he stood there for a long time saying nothing.  And he surely would not have outlined the content of that article for Jeff. 

 

I never heard of him before last week, but I'm glad he is gone. 

[Rick Kitchen]

 

She was way out of line speaking of things she only knew by hearsay.

 

Why?

 

If you think that John Rocker isn't still the hateful racist homophobe, you should read his columns on World Net Daily.  His most recent one, just this week, pretty much calls for closing the borders to Africans. 

 

since the real victims were white and the attackers were black, it’s OK in the media’s eyes to portray the victims as the real villains and the attackers as misunderstood victims of racism.

Today New York – tomorrow the rest of the country will follow suit into the abyss of third-world mediocrity

 

 

[Phil] Robertson’s comments on homosexuality might’ve seemed a little coarse to an era where the show “Glee” is treated as the ultimate cultural achievement, but they were in line with what many Christians believe when it comes to the subject and are shared by 45 percent of Americans.

 

 

I'm so satisfied I want a cigarette.

[GaT]

Am I the only one who thought Natalie came out looking worse after the Immunity Challenge?

I'm with you. Natalie screaming about someone being homophobic is ridiculous. Lots of people remember you from TAR Natalie, like the saying goes, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

Jeremy is a moron.

[rlangmit]

I will laugh my ass off if after getting rid of their "strongest" player (who didn't win them anything, mind you) the orange tribe wins immunity next week. Based on the promo where they focused on the blue tribe I think it may happen.

 

I never understand this logic.  If a baseball team has one or two great hitters and a terrible rest of the lineup, and they have a losing season, no one says "The great hitter(s) can be traded.  It's not like they were winning with them anyway!"  (The great hitters are sometimes traded, but it's to free up salary and maybe buy more not-great but not-awful players.  Not an option in Survivor!)  Sure, Coyopa hasn't won, but Rocker was arguably the best player for them in 2 of the 3 challenges (and it's not like anyone else was beating Jon in the other challenge).  Furthermore, Rocker's size, physical condition, and athletic history mean that he is likely to be better at most (certainly not all) Survivor challenges than the remaining members of his team.  Just because they didn't win with him doesn't mean they're going to do better without him! 

 

Even if they win next week, I don't think it was any less stupid of a move to get rid of Rocker this week.  Sure, they might win because of the particular challenge or even just by luck--the challenges have been reasonably close, unlike in some other seasons with bad tribes.  But it's just not smart to get rid of your best athlete so early.  Especially when the *other tribe* is pushing for it!  (That said, it is a good move for the girls, of course.  They can't afford to worry about tribe strength now.)

 

In the end, I shockingly felt bad for Rocker, who did try to help Val, who did try to provide for the tribe with food and in challenges, and who was committed to his alliance.  He may be an asshole, but on Survivor, I didn't think he played all that badly.

[Donny Ketchum]

But then Survivor rewards his crap by casting him on the show.  There should be consequences for what he did.  Not rewards like being cast on a popular reality show because of his notoriety.  Good for Natalie for speaking up for Americans who are tired of these guys being given rewards for acting horribly.

Then what does that say about Natalie and Nadiya's casting? ;)

[green]

Then what does that say about Natalie and Nadiya's casting? ;)

 

Don't know what you are talking about.  They were/are not bigots.  And they were funny on TAR.  They got cast cause of their entertainment value.  Not for being full of hate toward their fellow man.  They don't write articles attacking various groups on web sites.  They seem like nice enough peeps to me.

Edited October 9, 2014 by green

[truthaboutluv]

Too bad Josh had to call him a "hick" in his confessional. Jackass

 

 

I like Josh, but I found it insulting that he automatically assumed that Keith wouldn't like him because he's "a gay man from New York."  People can have a difference of opinion on certain issues without resorting to hateful or violent behavior.  Assumptions like this about us southern folks can be quite maddening.  Maybe Josh will learn not to judge people based on geography. :)

 

 

I saw that scene entirely different and think Keith is the one who came off looking bad. Yes, Josh stated that he and Keith were an unlikely pairing and you wouldn't think they would get along but then added that's what he loved about experiences like Survivor because it allows you to meet and interact with people he ordinarily wouldn't in his everyday life. Keith pretty much said the same thing about them being so different and an unlikely pairing, saying it was like night and day. And then he proceeded, right after Josh is going on about having a nice time and seems to be enjoying himself, to say that Josh is a "good 'ol boy -  just not his kind of good 'ol boy."

 

And then he makes certain to of course state that they would be sleeping on opposite ends and there would be absolutely no spooning because gosh, can't have anyone thinking that, what with the gay guy there with him. And then he apparently thought this was the most hilarious thing ever. I liked Keith and wouldn't say I actively dislike him now, but his comments made me uncomfortable and it was a pity because the scene started off really nice, when it seemed to show how well these two unlikely individuals were getting along.

 

Natalie was visibly more animated, aggressive, and persistent during the post-IC confrontation. She is the one who launched a verbal attack on the other team and, more specifically, John. From what I just watched, she was demonstrably more out of control and volatile than Rocker.

 

 

Agreed. Goodness knows I am no fan of Rocker and I care not a lick that he's gone but Natalie really was the one who came off very confrontational and volatile in that situation, especially considering they'd just won. And honestly, all I was thinking while she was going at him was that "there is no way she's winning this thing."  And we saw her go at Drew this episode as well - like everyone knows one of the basic rules of Survivor is to keep your mouth shut. Jeremy for all his anger at Val being voted off and him being the one who brought up the article to his tribe, notice he was very quiet throughout that confrontation. Because even he knows going off and making yourself that visible is dangerous in this game. 

 

Can we please get off the Josh train before it takes over the whole season?

 

 

To be fair, a lot of that focus may be because Coyopa has been sucking so much to this point and have gone to every single tribal council where as you pointed out, he played a heavy hand in controlling the votes. So I can see why he's been shown so much but that's why I hate when there's such an imbalance with the tribes because I always feel like we miss out on the dynamics of the other one when only one tribe keeps going to tribal council. So hopefully Coyopa can attempt to not suck next week and win a damn IC so we see some Survivor play from Hunahpu. 

 

As for the season being boring so far, I think it's because of the personalities. Last season, we had Brains sucking just as much as Coyopa but it was entertaining to watch between batshit crazy J'Tia, the way they kept flipping around in that small tribe of 5, Spencer's stress level, nutty Kass and of course there was Tony's constant boasts to the camera, Morgan's boobs, etc. There's none of that this season. There's no crazy, fascinating personality which is probably why so much focus is on Josh at Coyopa. I mean that short exchange between Wes and Alec didn't convince me there were two sparkling personalities there. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[BK1978]

I don't think she ran off because of his being called out for his bigotry.  Unless it was edited out, I don't think that ever came up at the Exile Island Duel.  Rather, he was called out as being the one running the show on his Tribe, and therefore the one who should be a target.

 

And I don't think Jeremy brought up the bigotry stuff back at camp (when he referred to Rocker's making "homosexual" comments, heh) until after Julie walked away.

 

I'll never be one to defend John Rocker, but it seems to me that the challenge was set up to invite those sorts of run-ins.  It was designed to have the competing pairs intersecting with each other.  For that matter, it seemed to me that in her last time through the "twinnie" might've thrown a hip at the other team.

 

Exactly, they put these challenges in to cause drama and to have those sort of run-ins.  Hell it seems they run that Clay choking challenge nearly every other season, so you know the producers want to see the players clash like that.  With this being a Blood vs. Water season I would expect to see even more of these types of challenges, so the viewers can see just what loved ones will do to each other in order to win the money.

 

By no means am I a John Rocker fan but I thought he handled himself pretty well considering he had a shrill screaming at him.  It is funny but I made the comment before the Immunity Challenge to my father that Natalie always seems to have to be in the mix with everything.  She is always the most vocal person cheering, she always has to pick fights.  That chick annoys the hell out of me and I hope she goes soon.

[GaT]

Don't know what you are talking about.  They were/are not bigots.  And they were funny on TAR.  They got cast cause of their entertainment value.  Not for being full of hate toward their fellow man.  They don't write articles attacking various groups on web sites.  They seem like nice enough peeps to me.

They constantly referred to the Beekmans as "the gays", that wasn't funny, that was bigoted. 

[Nihilum]

I wouldn't say I'm disappointed to see him get voted out, but it seemed like John didn't really get a fair shake, which is obviously what they wanted when they cast him.

 

It's pretty natural for Jeremy to be upset at his wife being voted out, but from what we saw, while he may not have done everything possible to save her, John did as much as could have been reasonably expected in that situation. He did disclose information to someone not in his alliance in an effort to help her stay in the game. Things may have been different if she didn't lie to John instead of admitting she didn't have an idol, but that's the way she chose to play it. Granted, Jeremy doesn't really know what happened exactly, but I wouldn't expect someone to sacrifice their own game to save someone else.

 

I was way more appalled at Natalie's behavior during the challenge. She didn't even know what exactly John had said, and like people have mentioned, all her information was secondhand. To just start spewing vitriol based on that alone is pretty classless in my opinion. He said something horrible things in the past, but if he does genuinely regret what he said, it shouldn't be held over his head forever.

[samuel]

I loved the roughness in the challenge. it's a game for a million dollars, and it's tough. Could have done without the trash talking afterward, but it's not against the rules so I have no problem with it. I'm also glad Rocker got voted out even though I was rooting for him last ep. His strategy really fell off in this one, even though I liked his comment about knocking Natalie's teeth out if she were a man. It was probably true, and given that this is a game about social interaction, completely acceptable to say things like that. It just turned out to be a poor strategy (intentional or not) that didn't work for him. Other players have used it well though.

 

"good 'ol boy -  just not his kind of good 'ol boy."

 

You misheard this. Keith said "Just not my good ol' boy." I think he meant while Josh was good company, he still wished his son could have been there instead.

Edited October 9, 2014 by samuel

[green]

They constantly referred to the Beekmans as "the gays", that wasn't funny, that was bigoted. 

 

How?  If the team was comprised of two gay guys I assume they would be gay by definition.  Did they refer to them as "the deviant gays" or the "going to hell cause they are gays" team?  I don't think so.  It was just a handle like "the jocks" or "the frats" or any other shortcut handle.  Plenty of Amazing Race teams have referred to teams of gays as gays starting with the lawyers talking about Team Guido in season 1.

 

The twins got referred to as "the twins" too.  Race teams over the years called other race teams by these handles as often as by their names..  That wasn't bigoted by them either.  If there is no hatred involved then it can't be bigoted in my book.  I don't see a bigoted bone in "the twins" (either one) and certainly no hatred to any group of people other than bigots.

 

Now if the Beekmans were ashamed of being gay or were still in the closet then that could be a problem.  But they obviously weren't.

 

Both TAR and Survivor cast a certain quota of "types" on their shows.  One type since day one has been gays.  Which is to both shows credit.  The Rich/Rudy storyline from the original Survivor probably had more effect on straight American attitudes then most news stories and protests back in the day.  And from day one on both shows gays (and gay teams on TAR) were referred to as same.  No bigotry in that.

[viajero]

While the shouting match with Natalie after the IC may have contributed to John going home, I don't think that alone would have been enough.  Instead, I think the following factors were much more important:

 

1. That John openly admitted to making a deal with someone from the other tribe behind the backs of his own tribe and alliance, basically proving that he was not trustworthy.

 

2. That the two girls did a good job in tribal council of reassuring John that they still bought in to his fake plan to backdoor the older guy.

 

I personally am very glad that John is gone.  I also don't think it's a bad result from Josh's point of view.  He basically got rid of the one other guy on his tribe who was trying to make moves.  It wasn't like they were going to be winning physical challenges anyway.

 

I think it's way too early to call this season a dud.  For one, we've seen almost nothing of most of the people on Hunahpu.

Edited October 9, 2014 by viajero

[millennium]

Why?

 

If you think that John Rocker isn't still the hateful racist homophobe, you should read his columns on World Net Daily.  His most recent one, just this week, pretty much calls for closing the borders to Africans. 

 

 

 

I'm so satisfied I want a cigarette.

 

Based on words and actions within the game alone, Jeremy and Natalie are both huger assholes than Rocker was.

 

I don't think it's right that people on the island are judged and penalized by the things they say and do back in the real world.   Every one of the other contestants may harbor unpopular opinions about things like race, sexuality, religion or politics, but because they're not famous they get a pass.   It's not fair.   

 

Jeremy was such a fucking hypocrite, whining about Rocker's racism as he himself tries to prejudice the rest of the tribe against him.   He can't be voted off fast enough, in my opinion.

 

re: Rocker's columns on World Net Daily.   I don't know about anyone else, but I live in America where we have this thing called free speech -- or at least we used to.   We don't have to respect what he says, but we should respect his right to say it and not take pleasure in him being punished for it.

Edited October 9, 2014 by millennium

[ShadowSixx]

Was John really an asset or the strongest player? The past two games he really wasn't player of the game, he lost to Julie in balancing a ball and got pushed in the water by Jon. So I don't think they lost a valuable player on their team. Sure he would have been a perfect goat to string along for a few more rounds but no thanks. I can't stand looking at him after reading about the words that came out of his mouth and reading that he's still more than likely has those thoughts and feelings but probably learned how to pretty it up without sounding like a bigot. 

 

I'm sure the editors are gonna edit someone else to be the villain which looks to be Drew, but previews can be misleading. There's Jeremy who irks me still, Josh could end up being the manipulator this season, some of y'all don't like Baylor, and then there's loud mouth Natalie, so editors aren't in short supply on who to make the villain. Also Probst irks me, so there we go.

[GaT]

How?  If the team was comprised of two gay guys I assume they would be gay by definition.  Did they refer to them as "the deviant gays" or the "going to hell cause they are gays" team?  I don't think so.  It was just a handle like "the jocks" or "the frats" or any other shortcut handle.  Plenty of Amazing Race teams have referred to teams of gays as gays starting with the lawyers talking about Team Guido in season 1.

 

The twins got referred to as "the twins" too.  Race teams over the years called other race teams by these handles as often as by their names..  That wasn't bigoted by them either.  If there is no hatred involved then it can't be bigoted in my book.  I don't see a bigoted bone in "the twins" (either one) and certainly no hatred to any group of people other than bigots.

 

Now if the Beekmans were ashamed of being gay or were still in the closet then that could be a problem.  But they obviously weren't.

 

Both TAR and Survivor cast a certain quota of "types" on their shows.  One type since day one has been gays.  Which is to both shows credit.  The Rich/Rudy storyline from the original Survivor probably had more effect on straight American attitudes then most news stories and protests back in the day.  And from day one on both shows gays (and gay teams on TAR) were referred to as same.  No bigotry in that.

They didn't call any of the straight teams "the straights", they didn't refer to anyone else's sexual orientation, just the Beekmans. Was there some reason they couldn't just call them "the Beekmans"? Or how about "the farmers"? Like all the other teams did. They were the only team that kept bringing up the fact that the Beekmans were gay.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Based on words and actions within the game alone, Jeremy and Natalie are both huger assholes than Rocker was.

 

Jeremy was such a fucking hypocrite, whining about Rocker's racism as he himself tries to prejudice the rest of the tribe against him.   He can't be voted off fast enough, in my opinion.

 

re: Rocker's columns on World Net Daily.   I don't know about anyone else, but I live in America where we have this thing called free speech -- or at least we used to.   We don't have to respect what he says, but we should respect his right to say it and not take pleasure in him being punished for it.

There's a difference between disliking an individual, even unfairly, and disliking whole swaths of humanity for profoundly stupid and hurtful reasons.

 

And free speech does not mean consequence-free speech. You don't have the right not to reap what you sew.

[DAngelus]

 

After tonight I have a sickening feeling that this season is going to amount to little more than THE JOSH SHOW. We just went through that with THE TONY SHOW last season. Every boot so far has been influenced by one particular person F'ing Josh. It's getting too much like Derrick on BB and that was boring. Do I like John Rocker? No. Am I a fan of SURVIVOR and like good television yes! So do I want the villain voted out in the third episode? Of course NOT! I was looking forward to more piling on of Rocker by Natalie and the other tribe because that was the best part of tonight's episode.

 

I totally agree.  Survivor is getting way too obvious in editing the winner (Josh? really?), both last season and the giant neon signs that said "TYSON WINS, YOU IDIOTS" the season before.  It's still early enough to hope this is a misdirect, but I'd be really surprised if Josh gets voted out before the merge, given the amount of camera time he's getting.  (This is why I prefer Big Brother, where the producers don't have the option to edit the show knowing the result;  it took weeks before they got on the Derrick train this season, for example.)

 

And much as Rocker is an Ass for All Seasons, there's not much satisfaction in losing the villain in ep 3.  Sure, I can always hate Natalie (hon, while you're busy decrying John's homophobia, did you know that your sister got kicked off because she kept calling Josh "a girl"?  Ironic, isn't it?), but I was hoping for a longer run, I won't lie.

 

I also agree that the boot makes very little logical sense.  Toyota was the weaker tribe physically to begin with and now with John gone, Hyundai has four men (Jeremy/Jon/Drew/Reed)  who might physically out-class anybody left on Toyota.  We've already seen that Alec is physically inferior to his brother, and Josh lacked confidence in his abilities to the extent that he refused to shoot the ball even with the game on the line, and Wes isn't particularly impressive, IMO. John may not have been skilled enough to win challenges single-handedly, but IMO Toyota is going have a much more difficult time even being competitive now.  Let the Ulonging commence!

 

Finally, a big eyeroll to Keith's homophobic talk about how "we don't get people like [Josh] down in Loosiana".  Oh, really, Keith?  I've never set foot in your state, but I'm pretty sure that Louisiana does, in fact, have homosexuals.  And I don't just mean in New Orleans or on the LSU campus…I bet there are "the gays" even in your little town.  Plenty of "fishing trips" that do involve "spooning", I'd wager.  Just so you know.

[Trick Question]

TA: I still figure John will get the most attention anybody has gotten for being the third person gone at the Reunion. For him, a victory would be not getting booed. That should depend on how good the game is played from here on out.

 

Nothing will ever top the hero worship shown to Jimmy Johnson, the 'star' of S21 who only lasted three episodes (even with the 'old tribe' twist that I firmly believe was engineered to keep him around as long as possible).

 

Survivor is getting way too obvious in editing the winner (Josh? really?), both last season and the giant neon signs that said "TYSON WINS, YOU IDIOTS" the season before.  It's still early enough to hope this is a misdirect, but I'd be really surprised if Josh gets voted out before the merge, given the amount of camera time he's getting.

 

It's hard to say since Josh's tribe has also been losing the entire time, so we're just naturally going to see more of him (as seemingly the lead strategic mind on the losing tribe) than anyone else.  Besides Josh, the most screentime in the first three episodes went to John Rocker and obviously that was just to get as much mileage out of his infamy before he got booted.  For all we know, the yellow tribe will lose every immunity challenge and get Ulong'ed out of the game entirely, so the editors are similarly taking advantage of Josh's camera-friendly persona while they still can.  Last season, when Tony's brawn tribe was winning every week and Tony was STILL getting so much screentime, you knew something was up.

[green]

They didn't call any of the straight teams "the straights", they didn't refer to anyone else's sexual orientation, just the Beekmans. Was there some reason they couldn't just call them "the Beekmans"? Or how about "the farmers"? Like all the other teams did. They were the only team that kept bringing up the fact that the Beekmans were gay.

 

Maybe because calling a team "the straights" makes no sense as in there were lots of teams that were straight.  If everyone on that season of the Race was gay except one straight team then sure there should have been a team called "the straights" but that wasn't the case. 

 

And maybe they actually wanted to showcase something they felt the Beekmans were proud to be.  Last I heard the term "gay" hadn't become some negative "N" word thing. 

 

Given Natalie's reaction to finding out that John was (and still is, see the post here about his current blogs) a for real homophobe, I don't think either twin meant "the gay team" to be derogatory.  And it isn't.  Why look for someone who has shown no bigotry towards gays at all to call out when she was clearly very upset to hear someone was a real homophobe on Survivor?  Someone that is really upset at their orientation to this day (again see the post that quoted from John's blogs).

 

I look to intent and I see no intent to demean anyone in a bigoted way from either twin ever. 

 

Well that's it for me.  If you don't agree with me and I don't agree with you I guess we will have to agree to disagree, heh. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by green

[millennium]

 

 

And free speech does not mean consequence-free speech. You don't have the right not to reap what you sew.

 

I see.  So if you express an unpopular opinion, you should expect to be punished, ostracized or maybe even physically harmed because of it?  

Edited October 9, 2014 by millennium

[DAngelus]

Just for the halibut, I went back through the episode and counted the Talking Heads.  (Said counting was somewhat arbitrary, since often a TH would be interrupted by some footage, but I counted those as a single TH unless there was a change for topic.  For example, when Josh/Keith were giving THs at Exile about how well they were getting along, they each spoke twice, but I only counted it as one apiece.)

 

Hunahpu (blue):

Jeremy-3 ("Drew's falling to pieces", "Heck no, John didn't try to save Val", "I'm gonna destroy John's game with my tribe")

Keith-3 ("Drew is pretty lazy.  In the South, we'd whup his butt" "I gotta be smart with that Exile clue this time.  Maybe Jeremy has our Idol", "Josh and I get along pretty good")

Natalie-2 ("Drew is lazy!", "John is a jerk! The other team should grow some balls and vote him out")

Missy-1 ("It's kind of funny how lazy Drew is")

Drew-1 ("We seriously need to fix that shelter")

Julie-1 ("Everybody hates John and now my game is screwed!")

 

Unheard from:  Flint-losing Jon, Reed (Josh's flexible bf), and Kelly (Dale's invisible daughter)

 

Coyopa (Yellow):

 

Josh-7 ("I'm not sure I should still trust John, but I guess I'll stick to the guy alliance", "I can't believe John openly admitted to working with Val", "Wow, Exile Island is really desolate", "Keith and I get along really well, even though he's a hick",  "I was really appalled by what John said at the challenge", "John's telling me he has the Idol makes me feel I can't trust him" [Ed. note—huh?] "It's going to be a big vote, I hope I make the right decision")

John-4 ("I feel bad about Val getting voted out, but it was her own fault for not playing her Idol.", "I enjoy catching the fish, I hope the tribe appreciates it", "Natalie's got nerve calling me a homophobe when Josh and I are such good pals.  I'm just glad I can trust my alliance" "I may as well bring my Idol to Tribal.  You never know…")

Baylor-4 ("That's twice I've had votes against me.  I'm not feeling secure and I can't just trust Josh to protect me.", "Hell, yeah, I'm scrambling, I have to.", "I hate that we lost the challenge.  I wish everyone would wake up and vote out John", "It's great they're telling me we're voting out John.  I just hope they're not playing me.")

Alec-2 ("I hate lying to the girls, but keeping the guy alliance strong is the way to go.", "I don't see the reasoning in voting out our best athlete")

Wes-1 ("It's cool John's catching fish.  Maybe we'll have an edge in the challenge now.")

 

Seen but not heard:  Jacklyn (sp?), Dale.

 

(Note:  all the "quotes" are paraphrases/distillations.  Except for Natalie's "grow some balls" line; that's the misogynist original.)

 

So, not an exciting episode in the Jon/Jacklyn or Dale/Kelly households.  And Josh got 39% of the Coyopa THs, despite only constituting 14% of the tribe.  Or, to put it another way, he got as many THs as the other five Coyopa who survived Tribal did, combined.  So I would agree this was a pretty Josh-centric edit. (We never even saw if Keith went searching for the Hunahpu HII, for example.) We'll see if the trend continues, I suppose.

[cooksdelight]

John is an ass, but I do question the decision to vote out the physically strongest guy and best athlete. He was being judged on his past. In this game, he never said anything that bad to his own tribe. I think they will regret it. He easily made his basketball shot, he helped the team in that first obstacle course, he caught fish. Seems like he was a key team player and provider.

They should have gotten rid of Dale or Baylor.

I agree, and I'd have voted out Baylor just because she irks the hell out of me. And because her mother will save her ass no matter what happens with her own tribe. I saw shades of that last week.

They should have kept John around at least until the merge. Then you can start picking off the stronger players. And they should have used him more wisely in that rope/ball challenge, having him go in twice instead of just once. As for losing to Julie last week, he did that on purpose because he wanted to go to Exile Island to look for an idol. Too bad once he got it, he told people he had it and then didn't use it. His lack of ever watching the show did him in, I think.

Just in case...

For the record, he is post-show friends with Jeremy and Val, he told me "they're great people." Julie told me that Natalie was the nicest person to her out there. I am not sure exactly what/who prompted Natalie's outburst, but as someone else said, John will forever be judged by things he said, which he honestly regrets. He has to live with that every day and he knows it.

Don't rely too much on what editors are showing us because they want to manipulate the viewers into loving or hating certain players. It's all about getting us to tune in each week to see who picks a fight with whom "next week on Survivor!"

[Shock Corridor]

Josh is getting a lot of airtime because a) Coyopa are losing consistently, and therefore the greater narrative and strategy concerns are on his tribe, and b) the rest of his tribe are barely doing anything, with the exception perhaps of Baylor. They are not a particularly bright or charismatic bunch, and Josh is the one that communicates best. Doesn't mean he wins - this isn't necessarily a winners edit. He's just the go-to speaker because he is playing with relative awareness, and is interesting, articulate and can communicate in soundbites. The rest (again, with the exception of Baylor) not so much.

 

Amazing world where people are responding to Rocker, who has gone on record with an attitude of intense, malevolent bigotry and clearly still harbours these views with "Well, I don't really support him, but...free speech!", but the loud, mouthy woman makes a noise and utters some phrases that may be potentially thoughtless, but are intended without malice gets "Burn her for a witch!" Right. Good one, society, got your priorities well sorted then.

[poppy-]

I see.  So if you express an unpopular opinion, you should expect to be punished, ostracized or maybe even physically harmed because of it?

 

You should expect to get voted off the Island!

 

It wasn't the bigotry that got him out, really.

 

Jeremy was just fine working with Rocker, who he clearly (and entirely reasonably IMO) didn't like, until that relationship wasn't strategically useful. Once Rocker wasn't useful, because he did not protect Val, Jeremy expresses his disgust to the tribe, who use that info to get rid of a big physical threat on the other side.

 

Josh was just fine working with Rocker until it wasn't strategically useful.  He earned the loyalty of two women (who both have counterpoints in the other tribe) at the loss of one guy who is a longer-term threat to him.  And who is, frankly, scary and keep getting into challenges against Josh's boyfriend. But I think it was Missy/her mom and Jacqueline/her dad that Josh wants, not to get rid of the Rocker because Rocker is an ass.

 

In the game, Rocker played OK, but it was pretty stupid to reveal his deal with Jeremy, without at least telling his alliance beforehand.

Edited October 9, 2014 by poppy-

[cooksdelight]

It would have been smarter for John to have said "Hey, Val did herself no favors by telling everyone she had two idols. I told her to play one if she wanted to be safe, and she had none to play. She lied to all of us." Instead of what he said, which again I attribute to his unfamilarity with how the game is played. Jeremy might have not lashed out if he realized his wife had made such a dumb move.

[Chit Chat]

I thought Natalie did great for standing up and calling John out.

 

I disagree.  It wasn't her fight. She takes second-hand information and very quickly makes a judgment on John without actually knowing the facts herself. Who does that? If I'm going to stomp and scream at somebody on national television, I'm at least going to know what the fuck I'm talking about.  I thought it made her look bad.  I'm not trying to defend John, but again, I don't think there should be any interaction between the tribes at challenges - especially where one tribe is actively lobbying for an opposing tribe member's ouster.  There will be time for that after the merge!

[JudyObscure]

There's a difference between disliking an individual, even unfairly, and disliking whole swaths of humanity for profoundly stupid and hurtful reasons.

I agree, which is why I don't like Josh anymore for calling all Southerners "hicks." No one has called him any names.

Keith also threw the whole South under the bus by saying there were no gays in Louisiana and that everyone "whupped" their kids, not to mention all his uncomfortable "jokes," about sleeping on opposite sides of the fire. I was really hoping the two of them would get a thunder storm.

I don't like John Rocker but Natalie was screaming trash and hatred in such an over the top way, I was shocked. I can't believe they let someone from the winning team tell them who to vote off. I would have kept Rocker for one more week just to spite her.

Jeremy must have never watched the show if he thinks one person can control all other votes -- particularly when they've been given wrong information.

This is the worst season ever for me, too. Far too much time spent on challenges and not enough getting to know the players. This is supposed to be a social experiment about a group of strangers getting along in tough circumstances. Now,the survival aspects have gotten easier and easier and we have people who already know each other crying and clinging. What is this mess?

[Whimsy]

I know John Rocker is a polarizing personality on Survivor.  I am glad he's gone so hopefully we can talk about something else. 

 

Let's stay focused on this episode and curb the "free speech" debate.  This is the only warning.  If it continues I'll just delete comments.

 

Thanks and happy posting!

[Haleth]

Am I the only one who thought Natalie came out looking worse after the Immunity Challenge

 

I don't see it as a competition for who looked worse.  They both came across as horrible people.

Is it the Crapola tribe vs. the Honeypoopoo tribe?

 

Ha!  That's about right!

[ProfCrash]

I had no problem with Josh's talking head at Exile Island. He was discussing the stereotypes, the hick and the New York gay, getting along. I saw it more of a statement that people will get along based on their personalities and experiences and to not get caught up in the stereotypes. I smiled and laughed as I thought back to Rudy and Richard in the first season and some of Rudy's comments. All Josh was saying that based on the stereotypes, the two of them should not get along and yet they were enjoying themselves on EI.

 

Thrilled to see John gone but not with how it happened. I doubt that Natalie ever read the article or has the slightest clue as to who he is. She is not going to make it until the end because she has no filter and cannot stop herself from talking. Her prodding of Drew and then her comments after she woke him up are 100% the reason she is dead in this game. She was 100% right, Drew is an idiot, but everyone knew that without her waking him up and digging into him for doing nothing. Jeremy had pretty much said what Natalie said in a talking head, so had others whose names I still don't know. Drew is coming across as useless. The entire tribe gets that and he is likely the first person voted out because of that. Natalie might feel better after she berates him in front of everyone but she is not doing anything that helps her game. She is simply being loud and stating the obvious.

 

At the Immunity challenge Natalie was at it again. Jeremy got it started and Natalie ran with it. She was outraged based on what one person had to say about an event that is well in the past that she probably had no clue about. I would agree that Rocker is an ass and that he has not really changed his colors but Natalie allowed herself to be goaded into going off in a manner that is simply not acceptable based on information from one person. Rocker did not handle it well, his comment that if she was a man he would have hit her was flat out wrong. He had two options 1) shut up and take it, probably like he has since he made those comments 2) take the opportunity to say that his comments were wrong and that he has grown a lot and he knows that he was wrong. Instead he went with option three, threaten violence.

 

I have no idea if the people in his tribe all knew who he was or what he had said. It seemed to me like they were all fine with having him in their tribe in the sense that no one was scared of him and that he had not said anything that was offensive to anyone in the tribe. The only person that Josh has been upset with, that we have heard about, in how she dealt with his sexuality is Nadyia. Natalie's twin. The one outraged by Rocker's homophobic and racist comments that she had just learned about. You can bet $1,000,000 that if Rocker had said anything that was remotely racist or homophobic in camp or if anyone was really worried about him we would have seen it and heard it. We didn't.

 

Voting him out strikes me as a bad game move. He was physically strong. He was not divisive at the tribe. He pissed off the other tribe, which means he would have been the target to be voted out at a tribe swap which means that another tribe member would be safe. If they hid the fact that he had an idol from the other tribe, they could have used that to help bounce an opposing tribe member at the swap.

 

Julie was in a crappy position once they got back from the reward challenge. Jeremy was pissed and she knew it. John was being blamed for in game moves and that put a target on her back. She probably knew that his past was going to become public and that was bad for her. I am shocked that she didn't tell Natalie to shut up when she was foaming at the mouth after the immunity challenge. The man that she loved was being attacked, not for game play but other reasons. Hopefully the game is easier for her now that he is gone but I doubt that it will be. I can see Jeremy and Nadia holding it against her that she is dating Rocker.

 

So glad he is gone because I don't like what he stands for but I know that only because of his past words and not his game play. If he had been any other person and not Rocker I would be shocked that his tribe tossed him.

Edited October 9, 2014 by ProfCrash

[Primetimer]

People yell at John Rocker. John Rocker threatens various people. It's family fun for everyone!

Read the story

[Alapaki]

Re: the wisdom of voting out a physically strong player pre-merge:

 

I don't think the need to "keep numbers" to avoid a Pagonging at the merge really applies in a Blood vs. Water format.

 

Each of the 4 guys on the Orange Tribe have a post-merge alliance-mate waiting for them on the Purple Tribe.  That's 8 votes post-merge, which isn't bad.

 

If anything, the 4 guys on the Orange Tribe now have an incentive to throw the next two ICs to protect their Purple-partners and simply vote out Baylor and Jackie.

 

Ultimately, I think John Rocker would've been a great FTC goat, so I'm not sure about voting him out at this point.  But I don't think "weakening the Tribe physically" is really a concern given the B vs. W format.

[peachmangosteen]

Keith came off pretty badly to me in this ep and it made me sad because I was really liking him. Between his 'lol no homo' and 'we beat our kids in the South lol' I was like 'lol no thanks.'
 
I was weirdly on John's side for some of this ep. But he did call Natalie a slut (which just what?!) and said she looked like a man, so I'm still glad he was voted out. Plus, I'm not sure how much I buy how regretful he is for his past comments when he is still making gross comments. And he never did say he was sorry for anything so. As for voting out their biggest competitor, I mean it's not like they're winning with him and he lost two one-on-one challenges.
 
Also, I can't wait for Dale's reaction to this blindside because I weirdly and possibly irrationally despise him.

Edited October 9, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[cooksdelight]

said she looked like a man

I am pretty sure it was "If you were a man....I'd knock your teeth out" And I don't remember the calling her a slut, but I could have missed that.

[ChicksDigScars]

As big a jackass as Rocker is, I wanted him to pull out that idol. The opposition is DOMINATING them, so what do they do....exactly what the team that's kicking their ass told them to do. Way to show you have life, backbone and HEART. Let a pushy, mouthy opponent tell you all what to do. Now, they not only know that they have the physical advantage, they have a psychological one, too. Enjoy your Pagonging,

And yeah, this season is dull as dirt for me. At least Rocker served up the dramacakes. Now, I will probably doze off during the show for real, instead of simply spacing out while it's on.

[JudyObscure]

I had no problem with Josh's talking head at Exile Island. He was discussing the stereotypes, the hick and the New York gay, getting along.

Except "New York gay man," is not a derogatory slur, while "hick," is. In fact "New York gay man," implies a certain level of sophisticated urbanity. Josh basically complimented himself while he called Keith something that means backward and dumb. People from the South get just as sick of others assuming they're stupid and bigoted, as gay people get hearing negative stereotypes about themselves. If Keith had said that he thought it was cool that a Southern gentleman was getting along with a (insert gay slur,) it would have been comparable. I thought Josh was patting himself on the back for getting along with Keith, while insulting him at the same time.

[peachmangosteen]

I am pretty sure it was "If you were a man....I'd knock your teeth out" And I don't remember the calling her a slut, but I could have missed that.

 

After he said the above he said, "You look like one." Or at least someone said that, I guess it's possible it wasn't John because they didn't show the face of the person saying it, but it sounded like John and honestly why would someone else say that.

 

And he said to Natalie after she started going off, "Blah blah (shut up basically I think), slut." At least that is what it sounded like to me, but it makes so little sense, so maybe I misheard.

 

I'm gonna rewatch that part later with captions to get an accurate read on it.

 

I agree with you on Josh's 'hick' statement, JudyObscure. But Keith come off shitty there, too, IMO. Plus I already don't like Josh, so it didn't surprise me when he said that. I didn't expect all that from Keith.

Edited October 9, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[cooksdelight]

I try to remind myself that Keith is not the most sophisticated man of the world, and he's never been on television. He's sitting out there with a camera person and chit-chatting about everything under the sun, and questions are asked... "what do you think about Josh, being that you're from the south and all?" and vice versa with Josh as well. I try to give all these people the benefit of the doubt, even Natalie who was mouthing off like a crazy person, because that's just how she is. She can't help it and I think others realize that and use her as a mouthpiece.

[Special K]

Geez, this show is a veritable explosion of prejudicial attitudes, isn't it?  One would be hard-pressed to think of one not expressed so far this season.  

 

God bless America, I guess.

 

Meanwhile, given how rabid the blue tribe was about John Rocker, it would seem a no-brainer to keep him until the merge.  With numbers down, and a pagonging possible, he would have made a great big doofus-shaped shield for that first, post-merge TC.  Of course, having the idol does change things, and they were probably smart to take the chance when they had it.

 

I kinda loved how Julie kept referring to "my boyfriend John" amid her tears.  Of course that was producer-directed to differentiate him from Jon, right?  Like how in that previous season, everyone would say "Kelly B." as if people really speak that way.  

 

And though I go back and forth on Jeremy, and think he is probably a hot-head, I kind of loved hearing him exclaim "He's a moron!" about Drew/Alex in the preview for next week. For some reason that just made me laugh like a 12-year-old.

[lilly6]

Except "New York gay man," is not a derogatory slur, while "hick," is. In fact "New York gay man," implies a certain level of sophisticated urbanity. Josh basically complimented himself while he called Keith something that means backward and dumb. People from the South get just as sick of others assuming they're stupid and bigoted, as gay people get hearing negative stereotypes about themselves. If Keith had said that he thought it was cool that a Southern gentleman was getting along with a (insert gay slur,) it would have been comparable. I thought Josh was patting himself on the back for getting along with Keith, while insulting him at the same time.

 

Not to mention that the "New York gay man" is from Michigan.