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S04.E02: White Out

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Which ones? Mayan, Egyptian, Julian, Hebrew, French Republican or Gregorian calendar (to name a few)? Kidding. The timeline drives me crazy at times too. particular the difference between time on the show and time in our world. Makes it sometimes hard to get the feeling for the development of the characters and pacing of the show.

 

The tag in Gold's shop dates Anna's necklace to the 1830's if that helps.  Probably not, but I thought it was funny that they had a prop that got decade specific and the subtitles are seriously vague.

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- The conundrum that if Charmz and Kristoff were supposedly such bffs, and Charms and his mother were going to his wedding, then since Anna left Arandelle the day of her wedding(or the day before.. I can't remember), that David and Ruth would NOT have been home when Anna arrived in the Enchanted Forest, she'd have found an empty farm because they would've been in or en-route to Arandelle.

Great observation!  A simple throw away line of "I was invited but of course (waving hand toward the sheep) we couldn't go" would have been more to explain why he was home.  Of course, not having him be invited would have been simpler since now we have the question rising from why was Kristoff travelling after he was engaged to Anna.  Did Elsa put a restriction on them getting married until Anna was x years old?  (I don't recall them actually being engaged at the end of Frozen)

 

I had thought about how Kristoff and Charming knew one another and figured that it was Kristoff who was the traveller since Charming really couldn't get the time off to  go exploring.  

 

 

Which ones? Mayan, Egyptian, Julian, Hebrew, French Republican or Gregorian calendar (to name a few)? 

At this point, I think people would be happy if they just had one, any one, as long it progressed in a logical order and tptb stuck to it.  (see also: continuity manual)

 

The tag in Gold's shop dates Anna's necklace to the 1830's if that helps.

Between this and the information about the necklace that included a note about an acid test, there must be a way to read things on the screen or there are those with really great eyesight.

Edited by elle
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I watched it on the laptop and hit print screen (because ABC goes dark on pause).  I was looking for who put it into pawn.  Sadly nothing that interesting.

 

There are other forums where I was taught to read through the top page of a script page.  Now I tend to read everything displayed looking for clues. Its a sad state of affairs. 

Edited by ParadoxLost

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Why was Charming huffing and puffing after the sword fighting practice as if he needed to go to the gym?  I could see him having problems with sword fighting for the first time, but why so out of breath?  He works on a farm and herds sheep all day, so he should be in shape.

 

Thanks for describing the deleted scene, since the video wasn't watchable from my region.  Why are they going out of their way to write scenes for Snow and Regina, while avoiding scenes for Snow and Emma?  Imroney raised a good point about lack of awareness from the writers.  So they had Snow walk in at the very end after having no communication with any of her family members in the entire episode.  So the writer should have thought about what Snow would see/ask/notice when she walked into the room.  

 

I usually like Henry more than most, but the acting was off in this episode (especially the scene at Regina's door... maybe the lines were just too awkward to say naturally).  There were a few nice scenes with Henry in 3B even, one with Emma in the park, one with Hook on the ship, etc, so I feel he can deliver in some situations.  Hopefully, he's just getting used to acting with his new voice.

 

Aside from Charming's flashback hair, Ruth's flashback hair also looked weird.  It looked almost modern and took me a little out of the scene.

 

I'm wary of their megavillains, so they better have a convincing reason why the Snow Queen is in Storybrooke selling ice cream.  

Edited by Camera One
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I assumed that David and Ruth hadn't been invited to the Anna/Kristoff wedding she bailed on to come to "Misthaven," but that Anna had extended them a formal invitation to the make-up wedding. It was clumsily worded, but I didn't find it illogical or crazy or anything.

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- The conundrum that if Charmz and Kristoff were supposedly such bffs, and Charms and his mother were going to his wedding, then since Anna left Arandelle the day of her wedding(or the day before.. I can't remember), that David and Ruth would NOT have been home when Anna arrived in the Enchanted Forest, she'd have found an empty farm because they would've been in or en-route to Arandelle.

 

I don't think they were invited. I think that Charming was joking about being invited. If he had been invited, he would have known "Joan's" real name. It was probably one of those things where Kristoff and Charming knew each other, but had lost touch. Anna was travelling to a country where she knew nobody and Kristoff gave the name of one of the people who he had  met.

 

By the end of the show, Joan did actually invite the Charmings to her wedding.

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*tiny voice* I actually enjoyed David's hair. It...entertained? me...

 

*regular voice* I'm with those who enjoyed Bo-Peep. I hope Robin Wiegert returns, I always enjoy her in whatever i see her in!

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Thoughts after re-watching. 

 

Little Bo Peep running a protection racket was very clever. The problem I had with it is that it does nothing good for Charming and Anna's characters executed the way it was. This is the second time they've wrapped a Charming fairy back around the question of whether he had courage.   The first time (The Tower) I was ok with it because they were exploring Charming's fears over whether he could be a good father after losing Emma.  This time I flat out didn't like it and thought it was completely out of character.  The whole thing came off as necessary only to underline what a special snowflake Anna is.  Charming can survive this,  I don't know that Anna can.  I'm really annoyed with her.  Its too bad they did it this way, I think it would have been much better if Anna used her life as a Princess to teach Charming about the importance of inspiring his fellow peasants to stand up and fight for themselves instead of fighting the battle for them alone and losing.  A little King training that becomes useful some day.

 

At this point, I don't think Rumple has the patience to spend five minutes in Anna's presence.  On the other hand she kind of reminds me of the worse aspects of Belle's personality so what do I know.

 

Another thing that struck me on rewatch was that in the moment when Hook shutdown Charming's paternal warning Hook showed a maturity and experience that clearly demonstrated that he had 300 years experience on Charming, has a deep respect for Emma, and is all in this relationship.  It was very well acted.

 

Snow not reacting to Emma shivering in her blanket (and Hook's arms) was a huge and unnecessary oversight.

 

So what are they going to do when the gas runs out and the generator stops?

Edited by ParadoxLost
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Well, since my*sister in namesake* made her premiere, it  would be remiss of me not to comment (ha!) 

 

Campy, witty, unexpected villains are a very very good thing for ONCE and the campiness and snark of the Brutal Warlord Ms. Peep (oh, descriptions descriptions, thy name is funny overkill) was well appreciated by this crook carrying bustle wearing poster! Loved the costume, loved the girlie crook, loved the actress portraying her and realllly loved her modern day counterpart of Disgruntled Butcher. Cute. irreverent and witty. Thumbs up for that romp.

 

I enjoyed, I laughed, I felt heartstrings unexpectedly tugged and even appreciated little Henry a lot in this one. This is why I watch ONCE, to be out-of-the-moment entertained. No exception here.

 

Like many here, A break from Regina was rejuvenating (we had our evil spurt taken over by substitute baddie, Ms. Peep quite nicely). Rumpbelle was so dippy bad this week we really needed the flash of Peep silliness. I imagine that whole *girlfriend* commentary by Rumple is residual hate for Hook and now that Neal is dead (still, yes, and rightfully) he can ramp that rivalry up again. In his eyes Hook has been the wedge between the Stiltskin men and women they supposedly loved.

 

Belle. Dolt.

 

Enjoyed the Captain Charming banter and thankfully Hook told it like it was to David. And oh Baby, the little Hook and Emma moments were HUGE. Much more telling than a kiss, much more endearing. It's love baby. Not easy, ever, for these two, but love. And it certainly seemed a very solid...In the Face...commentary of just exactly WHO the writers see as heart partners. A joy even with the snark and mini angst. Especially with those things.

 

And the Frozen characters continue to be well written and very true to their established story. Not a total surprise, but a relief nonetheless. Elsa and Emma are instant solid gal pals, and about time for both of them. Much to look forward to for all!

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It's been pointed out that how could Henry miss a room he hadn't  slept in in a really long time, as well as clothes, games, and toys he's outgrown?

 

It's because he's currently living with Emma, David, Mary Margaret, and Nealflake (and Nealflake's midnight shrieking), in MM's Hovel.

 

I'd probably be missing my outdated room, too.

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Jared's voice sounds strained which flattens it and robs it of emotion. I wonder if he's concerned that his adolescent voice is going to crack. I wish the TPTB would just play the card they are dealt and embrace his changes. A crackle as he was calling out to Regina would have been poignant. 

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I can't find the reply to my asking if internet was cannon and saying yes, from the first show.  I remember some discussion about Greg and Tamara and everyone having flip phones so how current was Storybrook.  I can't quite get how them having internet would work, for one thing there'd be no need for the book, nor a rewrite for villan's to have happy endings?  Although that got dropped very quickly this week.  And they'd all be aware of the "real" America with all the current issues but remain more interested in the Fairy Tale villan of the week/season? 

 

Leroy's become kind of annoying that way, he used to be one of my favorites. Anyway, if they've always had internet, it would seem like it would be a totally different show to me, or at least different characters with knowlege of the world outside the line. 

 

And I'm still head shaking over there being MORE big bads in town that seemingly have been around since the first curse and no one's cared.  Show's frustrating in it's lack of logic like that. 

 

oh, and I really miss Jefferson and his prettiness.  And David and Anna had on exactly the same lipstick.  Too cute!

Edited by Jlina

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So what are they going to do when the gas runs out and the generator stops?

 

Storybrooke: Under the Dome. Obviously Regina has vast supplies of propane for possibly nefarious purposes.

 

I'm sure it will be gone and forgotten about by next week.

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Is it curious that now Rumple has confirmed that Hook and Emma are boyfriend and girlfriend?  Considering their history, I thought it was odd that Rumple called Hook out on that little detail.

 

I liked the Bo Peep storyline, however, while braver, Charming seemed fairly similar in his giving up with Bo Peep and encouraging Hook to give up chipping away at the ice.  Hook seemed far more torn up at the possibility of losing Emma that David did.  The special effects of climbing the ice wall/cave were underwhelming, but there's probably only so much they can do.

 

I found the Snow storyline kind of silly.  No one else in town could've worked on the power?  Weren't Emma and David out looking for the source of the lost power?  Wouldn't Snow think they were working on it?  Couldn't she have left Snowflake with Henry while she went to the power plant?

 

I feel sorry for Elsa, like I did in Frozen, but she needs some self confidence if she's going to be a ruler.  She can't crumble every time her sister takes a vacation.  I'm actually not completely excited for Emma and Elsa to become close friends because what happens when Elsa eventually returns to Arendelle?

 

By far the best part of the episode for me was Captain Swan.  The worry, the embraces and cuddles, the hand holding.  It's so nice to see that they do take to heart the quiet moments with each other, (although that chair looked really uncomfortable). I loved that Hook was counting any time (including every crisis) he got to spend with Emma as a date because otherwise they'd never have any. 

 

Regina's acting worse than a teenage breakup.  They dated for days and it's not his fault his wife is back.  I can't believe that she's shutting Henry out, although this happened in Frozen too.

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Regina's acting worse than a teenage breakup.  They dated for days and it's not his fault his wife is back.  I can't believe that she's shutting Henry out, although this happened in Frozen too.

 

Imagine how many overlapping Venn diagrams we can draw with this season and Frozen.  Regina is Elsa and Henry is Anna, and Emma is also Anna, except when Emma is more like Elsa, and when Anna's Anna, Charming's Elsa, but Snow is just the Electrician.

Edited by Camera One
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Imagine how many overlapping Venn diagrams we can draw with this season and Frozen.  Regina is Elsa and Henry is Anna, and Emma is also Anna, except when Emma is more like Elsa, and when Anna's Anna, Charming's Elsa, but Snow is just the Electrician.

I'm pretty sure Charming and Rumple will end up playing Olaf the snowman at some point.

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Why are they going out of their way to write scenes for Snow and Regina, while avoiding scenes for Snow and Emma?

 

Ginny and Lana have said that they love the Snow/Regina scenes (especially referring to the one from Bleeding Through) and have been vocal about it with the writers. We all know how well that worked for Lana with regards to the Henry/Regina relationship, so I'm fully expecting more Regina/Snow interaction. Probably with Snow asking Regina how she did it all - single mom and mayor. It will make me throw up, but Snow is so tainted at this point, I'm kind of glad she's off doing the random comedy at the power plant or I think she'd be at the ice cave telling Emma something stupid or fretting more about Baby Snowflake than her dying daughter and further ruining their relationship in my eyes. Of course, she walked into her apartment where Emma looked like death and didn't express concern, so they still managed to screw her up.

 

One of the things about Hook's seeming knowledge of modern tech is that while he knows what things do, he doesn't necessarily know what they're called. He referred to the walkie talkie as the communication device and there have been a couple of other instances where he seemed a bit out of his depth, but covered it well. Some of that I think is Colin's acting choices over the writing, but his reactions do show him not quite getting it initially.

 

I watched a couple of the better scenes again and I love that Elsa told Emma she found the necklace in the shop "filled with things". Aren't most stores filled with things? Also, I liked Emma's attitude towards Elsa. She's almost always willing to give people a chance. She may not trust them, but she tries to establish a reason in her head for why they are acting that way and react accordingly. She saw that Elsa was afraid and turned on a friendly no blame here tone to try to talk her down and ended up connecting with her on a personal level.

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Of course, she walked into her apartment where Emma looked like death and didn't express concern, so they still managed to screw her up.

I'm curious how the writer of this episode would respond if someone asked her about that.

Edited by Camera One

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Regina's acting worse than a teenage breakup.  They dated for days and it's not his fault his wife is back.  I can't believe that she's shutting Henry out, although this happened in Frozen too.

 

I don't even like Regina, but to my understanding, she's not moping because her boyfriend of two days found his long-lost wife. She's angry and sad because she has just lost her only chance on having the romantic love of her life with her. If she took Tink's words by granted, a man with the lion tatoo was her soulmate - and she just had this soulmate ripped out of her hands (due to her own rash actions in the past, nevertheless. And I'm not talking about the Marion thing. I'm talking about their first encounter that Regina decided to skip).

 

In this manner, Regina is mouring not what she had, but what she could have had. I just wish the writers would stress that more and maybe Lana would act more on this notion, not on the fact that there was "a breakup".

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One of the things about Hook's seeming knowledge of modern tech is that while he knows what things do, he doesn't necessarily know what they're called. He referred to the walkie talkie as the communication device and there have been a couple of other instances where he seemed a bit out of his depth, but covered it well. Some of that I think is Colin's acting choices over the writing, but his reactions do show him not quite getting it initially.

He has been giving the same reaction to modern confusion since Season Two and I love this acting choice. Hook rarely allows anyone to know that he is confused. That's why I liked his immediate, smiley response to Emma's Netflix comment in 4.01. I think Emma is the only character that he has allowed to see his confusion. Well, and Henry with the GPS flub, but Henry did not know enough about Hook to truly get why Hook would not know what a GPS is and it was not something Hook could easily cover.

I'm curious how the writer of this episode would respond if someone asked her about that.

Probably the same as always, "We filmed the scene. It was cut." Horowitz would probably just say, "We made it clear that Snow was deeply concerned." Regardless of the fact that the final product showed no such concern. 

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I can't find the reply to my asking if internet was cannon and saying yes, from the first show.  I remember some discussion about Greg and Tamara and everyone having flip phones so how current was Storybrook.  I can't quite get how them having internet would work, for one thing there'd be no need for the book, nor a rewrite for villan's to have happy endings? 

But it was in the pilot that Storybrooke has internet. Henry went on the internet to use a website to find out who his birth mother was and track her down. Plus, just in 4x01 Emma mentioned having Netflix. Also, having flip phones doesn't mean Storybrooke doesn't have internet, or is all that far behind us, really. My best friend still has a flip phone.

 

I don't think the internet means that there's no need to find the author of the book. It's not like the internet can reveal any of the characters' real stories.

 

Wouldn't Snow think they were working on it?  Couldn't she have left Snowflake with Henry while she went to the power plant?

I wouldn't trust Henry with my goldfish, let alone a newborn!!!

 

I watched a couple of the better scenes again and I love that Elsa told Emma she found the necklace in the shop "filled with things". Aren't most stores filled with things?

It cracks me up that everyone knew exactly what shop she was referring to, though! No question in anyone's minds--or mine, really.

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*tiny voice* I actually enjoyed David's hair. It...entertained? me...

Oh yeah. Talkin' 'bout my generation.

...Between this and the information about the necklace that included a note about an acid test, there must be a way to read things on the screen or there are those with really great eyesight.

"Acid test"? Was that why the necklace snowflake in Gold's shop looked dark and irregularly shaped?

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Is it curious that now Rumple has confirmed that Hook and Emma are boyfriend and girlfriend?  Considering their history, I thought it was odd that Rumple called Hook out on that little detail.

I thought he was taking great pleasure at the idea of another woman Hook loves dying. Even if the woman is the mother of his grandson. Because he's a sadistic bastard (excuse me, Belle, I meant a man with a true heart).

 

Regina's acting worse than a teenage breakup.  They dated for days and it's not his fault his wife is back.  I can't believe that she's shutting Henry out, although this happened in Frozen too.

Yeah, Taylor Swift called. She thinks Regina is way overreacting to her break up and she needs to take a chill pill.

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Ha, I would pay money to have Robin send Regina a link to the video for "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together."

 

having flip phones doesn't mean Storybrooke doesn't have internet, or is all that far behind us, really. My best friend still has a flip phone.

There was just an article about people purposely not getting smart phones over the weekend. A lot of people choose not to get smart phones for a variety of reasons. The most common reasons I hear are the extra expense of a data plan, not wanting to be tied to their email 24/7, and wanting to keep their old phone because they like it.

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Regina's acting worse than a teenage breakup.  They dated for days and it's not his fault his wife is back.  I can't believe that she's shutting Henry out, although this happened in Frozen too.

 

Word. My mom managed to go through a divorce of her husband of 19 years without emotionally checking out on her three kids (who were 17, 12, and 10 at the time). And Regina wouldn't even have to deal with trying to get Henry used to the idea of not having a dad around on a daily basis anymore the way my mom did while trying to deal with said breakup; all Henry was trying to do was be there for her in any way he could. Parenthood doesn't stop just because your relationship falls apart. So, basically? Suck it up, Regina.

 

 

 

In this manner, Regina is mouring not what she had, but what she could have had. I just wish the writers would stress that more and maybe Lana would act more on this notion, not on the fact that there was "a breakup".

 

If Regina had shown more sticking self-awareness, I'd totally buy into this (it would be better for my blood pressure ;)).

 

In other news, to give props where props are due, holy crap, Jennifer Morrison was great in this. From the hitching in Emma's voice to the clip of her speech -- fast in some places but slower in others -- to the shaking to the rigid way she was standing, she sold the hell out of freezing to death.

Edited by Dani-Ellie
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In other news, to give props where props are due, holy crap, Jennifer Morrison was great in this. From the hitching in Emma's voice to the clip of her speech -- fast in some places but slower in others -- to the shaking to the rigid way she was standing, she sold the hell out of freezing to death.

 

She did a good job, and the make up was good, too.  The only quibble I have is with the writing -- hypothermia, even mild cases, produces mental confusion.  This would have been a golden opportunity for her to say something about her past, her feelings about Killian or her family, anything.  She stayed pretty lucid and that wasn't too realistic.

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I can't find the reply to my asking if internet was cannon and saying yes, from the first show.  I remember some discussion about Greg and Tamara and everyone having flip phones so how current was Storybrook.  I can't quite get how them having internet would work, for one thing there'd be no need for the book, nor a rewrite for villan's to have happy endings?  Although that got dropped very quickly this week.  And they'd all be aware of the "real" America with all the current issues but remain more interested in the Fairy Tale villan of the week/season? 

 

The first Dark Curse threw them into the 1980s of our world, so a lot had an 80s touch, just not the communication tech, which is rather contemporary. Internet definitely was there from the pilot on, Henry had access, his PC had a modern flat panel display even.

Only for the records, tech history: Flip phones started to become more available in the mid 90s with the first Motorola flip phone (StarTAC, 1996), so following hard on  the world wide web starting to take the world (the Mosaic web browser was released 1993, the World Wide Web Consortium W3C founded Fall 1994, Netscape Navigator was released around the same time). Flip phones were quite popular until smartphones have begun to take over.Perhaps best known is the Motorola Razr, first sold in 2004 - it's the one you get to see most on screen. And iPhones are available since 2007.

 

They might be aware thanks to internet and media, what's going on in the rest of the world, but why should they care about that? I grew up in a small village (population about 700 people ), most commuting every day to work or school to nearby town (population about 80.000), and one could wonder on meetings or chats on street, if the villagers cared about anything else but who was shagging and cheating who, which kid did what, who got a new kitchen and how their new garden corner looked liked - called it the village bubble syndrome.

 

Jared's voice sounds strained which flattens it and robs it of emotion. I wonder if he's concerned that his adolescent voice is going to crack. I wish the TPTB would just play the card they are dealt and embrace his changes. A crackle as he was calling out to Regina would have been poignant. 

 

Had the same thoughts. Of course we will write epic essays about discontinuity and whatever, but the difference between Henry's alleged age and Jared's age is more and more visible anyway. 

Edited by katusch

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I thought he was taking great pleasure at the idea of another woman Hook loves dying. Even if the woman is the mother of his grandson. Because he's a sadistic bastard (excuse me, Belle, I meant a man with a true heart).

 

I thought it was one thing he was goading Hook like that (who looked ready to leap over the counter and punch him), but David was standing right there and last time I checked, there was no bad blood between them.  He was a straight up asshole for someone who had just lost his own son because of powerful magic.  Thank you for just standing there Belle, you could have been just replaced by a freakin' potiche.

 

Also, someone mentioned David's lack of freak out (sorry can't find the quote).  I thought if was actually ok because of the how David and Hook's interaction in the episode with the whole "intentions towards my daughter".  Hook is usually one of the most level headed characters there is and he was close to full on panic.  One of them had to keep his cool and it clearly wasn't going to be Hook.  I think it was about David seeing what Hook was really about when it came to Emma.

 

And one more thing that I didn't see brought up.  So Elsa and Emma parallel each other with the whole magic.  There's also a parallel between Elsa and Hook when it comes to the loss of a sibling.  Without having seen Frozen, it seems Anna had a huge influence in Elsa's life, so much so that she feels she has to be there to help her control her powers when she goes all wonky.  And we all know what happened to Hook when Liam met his rather unfortunate end, spiraled completely out of control.  Not sure it will be brought up during the show, but I thought it was interesting after I saw the preview for next week because I wasn't really sure what they had in common.

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I'm not a huge fan of TV shows allowing people who murder to get away with it, through the trope of a redemption arc (OUAT isn't the only culprit in this regard), because in real life there are and should be consequences.    However, the OUAT producers apparently believe that villains can be redeemed so that the popular characters can remain on the show. 

 

So here's my take on Regina.  She was starting to believe that she could be redeemed and that 'vilains' could get a happy ending, and  not just the good guys - contrary to what the fairy tale book said.  So when she changed her evil ways, mostly through her love for her son Henry, and helped the good guys - even being willing to sacrifice her life for them, she was rewarded - or so she thought - with a happy ending by finding her second true love, Robin Hood.  Marian's return and Robin's decision to honor his marriage vows turned that belief upside down.  Regina was grieving for the loss of any hope for a happy future.  She was looking down the road and seeing only loneliness and unhappiness.  After all, what are the chances of there being a third true love out there for her?  

 

Now, she wants to change the fairy tale book to allow villains to have happy endings; otherwise, if there's no hope for her, then there's no point in her trying to be good.

Edited by tv echo
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Word. My mom managed to go through a divorce of her husband of 19 years without emotionally checking out on her three kids (who were 17, 12, and 10 at the time). And Regina wouldn't even have to deal with trying to get Henry used to the idea of not having a dad around on a daily basis anymore the way my mom did while trying to deal with said breakup; all Henry was trying to do was be there for her in any way he could. Parenthood doesn't stop just because your relationship falls apart. So, basically? Suck it up, Regina...

I went through something similar to your mom, and I presumed Regina just didn't want Henry to see her going back to the dark side. No? Unlike your mom and me, Regina is confident that the extended family can take good care of Henry. Edited by shapeshifter
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I thought it was one thing he was goading Hook like that (who looked ready to leap over the counter and punch him), but David was standing right there and last time I checked, there was no bad blood between them.  He was a straight up asshole for someone who had just lost his own son because of powerful magic.  Thank you for just standing there Belle, you could have been just replaced by a freakin' potiche.

 

Also, someone mentioned David's lack of freak out (sorry can't find the quote).  I thought if was actually ok because of the how David and Hook's interaction in the episode with the whole "intentions towards my daughter".  Hook is usually one of the most level headed characters there is and he was close to full on panic.  One of them had to keep his cool and it clearly wasn't going to be Hook.  I think it was about David seeing what Hook was really about when it came to Emma.

 

And one more thing that I didn't see brought up.  So Elsa and Emma parallel each other with the whole magic.  There's also a parallel between Elsa and Hook when it comes to the loss of a sibling.  Without having seen Frozen, it seems Anna had a huge influence in Elsa's life, so much so that she feels she has to be there to help her control her powers when she goes all wonky.  And we all know what happened to Hook when Liam met his rather unfortunate end, spiraled completely out of control.  Not sure it will be brought up during the show, but I thought it was interesting after I saw the preview for next week because I wasn't really sure what they had in common.

I'm not sure I see a parallel between Hook and Elsa with the siblings angle.  Elsa's sister is alive where Hook's brother has been dead for a long time.  They both have lost their parents under mysterious (to the audience) circumstances.  In Frozen, Elsa accidentally harms Anna with her magic, so her parents prevent the girls from playing together.  After their parents die, Anna and Elsa are completely isolated from each other (basically, Elsa locks herself in her room) Anna stops by everyday for years to ask if she wants to play, but Elsa doesn't answer.  Finally, when is to be crowned queen, the now grown girls renew their friendship and sister hood  only for Elsa to accidentally harm someone again and everyone then discovers she's been hiding her magic.  Elsa takes off from the town, builds and ice castle and Anna goes after her.  Anna sacrifices herself for Elsa towards the end and that finally melts Elsa's heart and happily ever after occurs.  So I didn't get the impression from the movie that Elsa needs Anna to control her powers at all times but it certainly seems that what's happening on Once.

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The situation is different, but I think Hook understands how important a brother can be for someone, specialy when you have lost your parents at a very young age. So that is something they can bond over.

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I'm not sure I see a parallel between Hook and Elsa with the siblings angle.  Elsa's sister is alive where Hook's brother has been dead for a long time.

 

Actually there is.  Anna is alive and Liam is dead.  And both seem to be some sort of anchor in their siblings lives.  I think he probably gets that side of Elsa.  I watched Good Form before White Out aired so it could color my perspective there but I do think there's a correlation between the two characters when it comes to their respective siblings.

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I went through something similar to your mom, and I presumed Regina just didn't want Henry to see her going back to the dark side. No? Unlike your mom and me, Regina is confident that the extended family can take good care of Henry.

 

If she doesn't want Henry to see her go darkside, maybe she shouldn't go darkside? My mom could have dumped us on my grandmother or my aunts and uncles for a few days, but she didn't. I just really need for Regina to take some responsibility, here, heh.

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Also, someone mentioned David's lack of freak out (sorry can't find the quote). I thought if was actually ok because of the how David and Hook's interaction in the episode with the whole "intentions towards my daughter". Hook is usually one of the most level headed characters there is and he was close to full on panic. One of them had to keep his cool and it clearly wasn't going to be Hook. I think it was about David seeing what Hook was really about when it came to Emma.

I think Charming has just been in enough life-or-death situations with people he loves that he's learned how NOT to panic/lose his head. He's learned how to stay cool and focus on the mission--not that he's emotionless, but he can compartmentalize. Much like Emma herself, actually, come to think of it. They both lock down to focus on the task at hand.

While I get what they were going for with Hook, imo Colin O overplayed his panic and terror. Hook's seen Emma in danger before (and more generally has been in lots of dangerous situations throughout his life). He should know how to stay cooler too. I mean, if he seriously wants to be with Emma, he's going to have to learn to keep his cool, or he's going to be no use in any life-threatening situation (read: 99% of the time).

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The timeline drives me crazy at times too. particular the difference between time on the show and time in our world. Makes it sometimes hard to get the feeling for the development of the characters and pacing of the show.

I think I'm going to take this to the timeline thread, because I have a lot to say about this that has little to do with this episode.

 

Is it curious that now Rumple has confirmed that Hook and Emma are boyfriend and girlfriend?  Considering their history, I thought it was odd that Rumple called Hook out on that little detail.

I think that's just a case of "everyone in town is talking about it" rather than any confirmation or knowledge of their relationship. Based on what Regina said to Emma when she was teaching her magic last season, it sounds like everyone in town has just assumed they were getting together, and Emma was the last one to figure it out. Rumple knew about the kiss curse and knew about the drowning (since he caused it), so he'd know that if Hook was still alive, Emma had given up her magic to save him. He also knew that Hook was resisting all threats from Zelena about taking Emma's magic. So it's not exactly a wild guess to assume there's something going on there, at least enough to jab Hook with, whether or not it's official. It's kind of like a school bully taunting another kid about his "girlfriend" when he saw him talking to a girl at recess.

 

As for David and Hook in dealing with Rumple in this episode, I think that what they did here makes total sense under the circumstances. They went to Rumple to investigate the necklace Elsa found in the shop and to try to get magical help. Seeing the photo of the necklace told David who the missing sister was, so he knew how to find her even without Rumple's help, so there was no point in sticking around to hound Rumple for help he'd already refused to give. However, there should be some follow-up there, especially if they ever have the "How'd you get here, anyway?" conversation with Elsa. Once they hear that she came out of an urn in the barn where the time portal was, Emma and Hook should associate that with the urn Hook took out of the cabinet in Rumple's Dark Vault, and that should lead them to another chat with Rumple.

 

Elsa's sister is alive where Hook's brother has been dead for a long time.

Through most of this episode, Elsa didn't know her sister was alive. She hoped, but I think she also feared that she might be dead. It sounds like Anna never came home from her quest, so Elsa has no idea what happened to her. It's probably what Killian might have gone through if he hadn't been serving on the same ship as Liam, if his brother had just been sent off on a mission and never returned. I don't think the circumstances have to be identical for him to be able to relate to the loss of a beloved sibling and feeling like it's at least partially his fault (or blaming himself whether or not it was his fault) or to totally understand completely losing it and making some bad choices when faced with the loss of a sibling. 

 

I didn't get the impression from the movie that Elsa needs Anna to control her powers at all times but it certainly seems that what's happening on Once.

I don't think that Elsa needs Anna to control her powers at all times. She may have been perfectly okay in Arendelle without Anna around. These are just crazy circumstances that sent Elsa out of control. She got put in that urn, somehow, then came out of it to find herself in a really strange place she doesn't understand, with all kinds of big, noisy, scary things and everything moving so fast. And then she found Anna's necklace in this strange place. That's a recipe for a freakout as extreme as what happened at the ball in the movie, and that may be extreme enough that she needed help calming down and getting herself under control. So far, Anna was the only one able to help her, so she thought she needed Anna.

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This is all about wall breaking for both Hook and Emma. They both will have to let their true emotions free and not hide them in order to connect honestly.

Hook's panic and emotional distress and worry over Emma was a sign of his breaking through his own wall of stoic snark and risking that emotional fear of losing someone he loves. Emma's was allowing herself to openly embrace (literally) and give her fear into Hook's waiting arms. Trusting and accepting each others' emotions.

They comforted each other after her rescue. It involved small gestures, but it was huge.

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While I get what they were going for with Hook, imo Colin O overplayed his panic and terror.

Hook is usually practical in dangerous situations from what I recall, so seeing him so worried and hack'n'slashy was weird. My guess is that Colin was going for being concerned about Emma for Captain Swan reasons. I'm not sure why, but I couldn't hear his lines with Charming very well at all in the episode. From what I hear they were really good.

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RE: Hook's inability to cut through the ice:

 

 

Doesn't mean it couldn't "heal" it self, or only let it go so far.

 

That's just an excuse, really. We can rationalize all we want, the point is that we were never shown anything to indicate there was anything preventing anyone from cutting through the ice with ordinary pick axes, which we know for a fact the dwarfs have. At first, I assumed David was under the impression - as I was - that Emma and Elsa were so far buried under mountains of ice that manually trying to dig them out would be useless. So when Elsa finally blasted a hole I was rather surprised and amused to see there was nothing more than a wall between them that was no thicker than six inches or so. 

 

This show always has that built-in loophole where you can go "because, MAGIC!" but too often, that's a big cheat. It's one thing to say "Well, Emma couldn't use her powers, because she can't control them." Even if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least they've addressed it. They did not address why they couldn't just break through that rather thin wall of ice with ordinary tools. Us trying to make up reasons is doing the writers' job for them.

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Hook is usually practical in dangerous situations from what I recall, so seeing him so worried and hack'n'slashy was weird. My guess is that Colin was going for being concerned about Emma for Captain Swan reasons.

 

That's what a director is there for.  They're the ones to who tell the actors to tone it down, bring it up or keep it even.  That's why they re-do scenes like 20 billion times. 

Edited by YaddaYadda
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I presumed Regina just didn't want Henry to see her going back to the dark side. No? Unlike your mom and me, Regina is confident that the extended family can take good care of Henry.

 

The problem with this is Regina is someone who spent a hefty portion of last season caterwauling about how Henry is the only person who could make her happy.  She would never be happy without Henry.  She needs Henry.

 

Now, when things aren't going easily for her . . . she doesn't want Henry.  It kinda makes the last season's Henry lamentations ring a little false.  Especially when aforementioned son had been through some pretty odd and intense situations over the last week, and you hadn't seen him for a year before that.  (Which crushed her.  Because she needed Henry.  He was essential.)

 

An adult in her situation (Huh.  I didn't succeed in killing the wife of the soulmate I didn't want until four days ago.  I must now immediately have a massive meltdown.)  would not just assume that the extended family is taking care of Henry and Henry was okay with that.  Regina did.  Regina didn't even phone him, let alone meet him at the park for a while and tell him she needed a couple of days to pull it together.

 

If Regina had a good track record of taking Henry and his feelings seriously, instead of just using him for positive affirmation and entertainment, a few days like that would be less glaring.  But, she doesn't.  It makes the whole thing seem less sincere, and much more like she's trying to manipulate him (or someone else, or the situation) by over exaggerating her extreme pain because she dated someone for two whole days and then it ended.

 

That's probably not what the writers were going for, but it's difficult for some of us to take Regina's relationship pain seriously, now.  It's too often just about her, and it's yet more evidence that other people aren't actually people to her; instead, they're props she tries moving around.

Edited by Mari
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If she doesn't want Henry to see her go darkside, maybe she shouldn't go darkside?

I think Regina was afraid Henry would find out about Operation Storybook and stop her. She was hoping to find the author of the book and force them to give her her Happy Ending as soon as possible. Not an excuse, but an explanation of why she was shutting out her True Love son. :-p

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I'm not sure why, but I couldn't hear his lines with Charming very well at all in the episode.

It wasn't just you--I think the sound got funky in some of the outdoor scenes at the ice wall. I had a hard time hearing Hook and Charming several times throughout the episode.

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Considering how old Jared Gilmore looks and sounds now, it just sounded kinda ridiculous when Emma tried to play the "Operation" game with Henry.

 

Except it's not exactly unheard of for parents to sometimes kind of forget that their kids have grown up. Especially when they're hurting. They turn to the things that made them happy when they were younger, even though they're older and different people now, and it doesn't really work the same way.

 

While I do want to get some kind of insight into how Hook is picking up all the stuff from our world, I can see how he might have figured out the space heater. Chances are good that he would have had to avail himself of the facilities while working with Team Charming to fight Zelena, and there was snow on the ground during part of that time, so the heater might have been on, and he'd have noticed that this little box in the bathroom gave off warmth. 

Heh. My thoughts exactly: maybe he went to the bathroom and saw it there.

 

Overall, I did enjoy this episode, and am kind of excited to see what they do with Elizabeth Mitchell. But I don't think the Anna-David past stuff really made sense. The two of them together were great - albeit with kind of more chemistry than they probably ought to have - but the story didn't really work. It's too bad they couldn't come up with something better.

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While I get what they were going for with Hook, imo Colin O overplayed his panic and terror.
Hook is usually practical in dangerous situations from what I recall, so seeing him so worried and hack'n'slashy was weird. My guess is that Colin was going for being concerned about Emma for Captain Swan reasons.

I actually thought it was pretty in-character for Hook to freak out like that. Yes, he's usually level-headed when there are monsters or bad guys running around, but if his loved one is about to die, he doesn't think rationally. When Milah dies, he thinks it's a good idea to try and kill the un-killable Dark One with a hook he picks up off the ground. He then decides it's a good idea to go back to Neverland, the place where his brother died, to live for 300 years to get revenge. Not exactly rational. He wasn't very rational when his brother died, either. Liam's dead? Let's become pirates! In both Milah's and Liam's death scenes, Hook is shown as being pretty emotional. So sure, he's been in dangerous situations with Emma before, but not many where he's separated from her and there's an immediate threat to her life. And now there's the added bonus that they're headed towards being boyfriend/girlfriend, so he's going to react even more emotionally. Plus, I never fault anyone for freaking out when the person they love is in danger - it would be weird if he didn't freak out.

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After trying to make a timeline of the last week in Storybrooke in the timeline thread, I'm not too bothered by Hook's freakout in this episode. While it's uncharacteristic of him, that doesn't necessarily mean it's out of character. It may just be the rare case of someone (writer, director, actor) taking into consideration the timeline, recent events, and character history and letting someone actually have a genuine emotional reaction that works in context.

 

When you think about it, it was just yesterday (plus the days spent in the past) that Hook saw Emma get sucked into a portal and followed her through. Then he saw her get taken prisoner by the Evil Queen, and he felt he had to head into the Evil Queen's palace to rescue her from the dungeon and certain execution. Just the night before, she finally kissed him but has been pulling away from him since then, and now, after a minor spat with him that he instigated, she's trapped and dying. That would be just about anyone's breaking point.

 

Meanwhile, has David ever actually seen her in jeopardy when he knew she was his daughter? There was the lost in the Enchanted Forest Team Princess thing, which she came out of perfectly okay, but has she been in immediate, life-or-death jeopardy in his presence? She was pretty much sidelined in 3B, and then she was essentially in charge in Neverland while David was the one in danger. I think that would give him a very different perspective than someone who'd seen her in potentially mortal danger a couple of times in the last day or so. David also has experience with everything working out okay. No matter how bad things seem, they always seem to come out okay (well, other than his parents). Hook is only just starting to see that the good guys have a point in believing in hope and being optimistic. Would David have been so calm in this situation if Mary Margaret had already died in his arms? Or if the dying person was absolutely the only person in his life right now who gave a damn about him, someone he'd given up almost everything he owned (other than maybe a few doubloons) to be with?

 

When you think about all that, it would have been weird if Hook hadn't finally lost his cool. As for understanding the dialogue, the sound was kind of weird, but I also think Colin's Irish was coming through more strongly than normal. It sounded closer to his normal speaking voice than his "Hook" voice usually does.

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Meanwhile, has David ever actually seen her in jeopardy when he knew she was his daughter? There was the lost in the Enchanted Forest Team Princess thing, which she came out of perfectly okay, but has she been in immediate, life-or-death jeopardy in his presence?

David is the one that pulled Emma out of the water in 3.01. It was Hook who got him to use a rope and Hook was relatively calm then but he had not realized his feelings at that point. I honestly think they're just taking turns worrying about our Emma.

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