S46 Ep. 13 Finale/Aftershow

[Carey]

58 minutes ago, GenerationX said:

Good on you, Charlie, for giving Kenzie full credit for her win.  That's sportsmanship, Maria.

Charlie = Rob Mariano in Winners At War.

Maria = Karla in the Worst Season ever.

[Notabug]

5 hours ago, Kenzie said:

I think I heard her say that she personally wasn't making any money from her salon because she wasn't charging the other hair-cutters for the use of their stations but at least she was putting others to work. That's not really a plan for success.

Perhaps she can use her winnings to get some business advice.

That was my first thought.  She said she wasn't going to use her winnings to start a nonprofit, but, to my mind, she already has one.  And, if she owns the space and does not charge her tenants any rent; she is not a very good businesswoman.  I presume her tenants are charging their clients for haircuts and such; if they're profiting then she should at the very least, charge enough rent to offset her own expenses in running the salon.

I didn't find her business 'plan' admirable, just wrong-headed.  If she wants to provide charitable services, she can volunteer her services to the local women's shelter where there are plenty of people who could use a good haircut.  There are far better ways to benefit the community than letting other hairdressers use her space for free.

[Brown44]

Charlie deserved to win but I understand why Kenzie won, 46 seasons and she said one of the realest answers on Survivor "the money is for me" no charity no donating no start a non profit, it was "I've been working my @$$ off since I was 15 now I wanna have some money to have a life outside of working 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

That was my first thought.  [Kenzie] said she wasn't going to use her winnings to start a nonprofit, but, to my mind, she already has one.  And, if she owns the space and does not charge her tenants any rent; she is not a very good businesswoman.  I presume her tenants are charging their clients for haircuts and such; if they're profiting then she should at the very least, charge enough rent to offset her own expenses in running the salon.

I didn't find her business 'plan' admirable, just wrong-headed.  If she wants to provide charitable services, she can volunteer her services to the local women's shelter where there are plenty of people who could use a good haircut.  There are far better ways to benefit the community than letting other hairdressers use her space for free.

Kenzie’s statement was “I don’t make any money off of the chairs I rent out.”  Kenzie wasn’t letting other stylists use space in her salon for free; rather, she was saying she wasn’t charging enough for booth space to make any measurable profit off the rentals.

 

1 hour ago, Brown44 said:

Charlie deserved to win but I understand why Kenzie won, 46 seasons and she said one of the realest answers on Survivor "the money is for me" no charity no donating no start a non profit, it was "I've been working my @$$ off since I was 15 now I wanna have some money to have a life outside of working 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

I got no problem with that. 😄

[bankerchick]

11 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

They also need to stop the immediate after-show and give the finalists a chance to process what happened, because I was bummed seeing Charlie looking so sad. 

In the old iteration, didn't they still have the after-show right after the vote reveal?  While they all would have been cleaner, gained a few pounds back and had a few (several?  seven?) months to decompress, it still would have meant looking at sad Charlie.  In fact, probably sadder since he would likely have spent the time figuring out how to spend the money he was sure he won.

8 hours ago, Skooma said:

Maria was swayed by the money question she said and I would have been too.  I don't believe for one minute she was all bitter and that people saying that have absolutely no evidence to back that up.

I don't believe for one minute she was not all bitter and look forward to seeing your evidence to back that up.

[iMonrey]

Once Maria was out, I correctly deduced from total screen time that Kenzie was probably the winner. I remember several weeks back noting that both Charlie and Ben were getting an also-ran edit, whereas Kenzie was featured consistently throughout the season. 

I still maintain no one "deserves" to win more than anyone else. It's a crapshoot based on whatever a jury of losers feels in that moment. I'm tired of hearing about who made the "big moves" or won the most challenges, because the jury is filled with players who made big moves and won lots of challenges, and guess what? They lost anyway. So someone who stayed under the radar and slid into the F3 without ever being targeted is, in my opinion, just as "deserving" as anyone else. 

I think there is something vaguely cruel about announcing the winner there on the spot and then forcing the losers to sit amongst the revelers knowing they didn't get the votes. Owen commented on this in his post-game interviews and you could see that Charlie was visibly shaken. 

In the "old era" I suspect by the time the winner was announced on the live show several months later they already knew whether they'd won or lost. And had the time to prepare themselves. I see no reason why they can't go back to that, other than the show's ridiculous obsession with pushing the "new era" concept as though it's an entirely different show.

Much like @Lantern7 I'd pretty much resolved to check out for awhile until I saw the preview and discovered Jon Lovett is going to be on next season. Damn it, just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. I have to see that. He doesn't seem like someone who'd last very long though so maybe I can check out early.

[North of Eden]

8 hours ago, Brown44 said:

If I got voted out bc 2 people tag teamed me out of a challenge bc they couldn't do it on there own I'd be pissed to all hell, they would have to ban me from final tribal. 

I'd be like the woman on Big Brother from around 10 year's ago that got kicked off the show bc she was gonna get someone voted out but he was part of a popular couple so the producers came up with away to keep him on the show but get her voted out. And she started throwing her mic pack into the pool and other equipment that they eventually had to get rid of her, that would have been me.

Chima! BIG BROTHER legend!

That;s BB for you. Let Evil Dick run wild pouring drinks over someone's head and all kinds of other stuff from other houseguests but they get mad over their $300 microphone pack.

 

[Carey]

It's been nearly 2 decades, and I have to check to see how much air time Stephanie received in Season 10.  I think it was a lot for someone that didn't even make the Final Six.  I do agree about Ben.  I imagine I'll forget that he was on this season a year from now.  Charlie?  Well, I'll probably see a ton of photos of his emotional state over the next 12 months.

As mentioned, Charlie still feels saddened live, but that's due to it being official.  He would've known by the time of the LIVE show.  Though it was a rather close vote, so it depends on his optimism.

I still don't see myself watching Season 47 when it airs, but it's also about a half year away

[North of Eden]

8 hours ago, Skooma said:

 

And if Maria had voted for Charlie it would just have ended up a tie and Ben would have had a panic attack of epic proportions and probably would have died on the spot having to decide the winner so I'm glad Maria spared us that trauma.

 

Wait a minute! Are you saying if there is a tie the goat who gets no votes gets to pick the winner?! That's insane! Absolutely insane! There has to be a better way to decide a winner than leave in the hands of a loser who usually has no business being in the final three.

[Carey]

3 minutes ago, North of Eden said:

Wait a minute! Are you saying if there is a tie the goat who gets no votes gets to pick the winner?! That's insane! Absolutely insane! There has to be a better way to decide a winner than leave in the hands of a loser who usually has no business being in the final three.

Probably go back to Final two or have 11 jurors.  Though in a way, the 3rd place vote is basically similar to if they were doing Final 2, and the absolute final TC winner would get to choose all of the options

[SuburbanHangSuite]

And I finally got my answer as to why I didn't like Maria all season without having any real reason for my dislike.  That was some weak, petty shit voting for Kenzie after your "bestie" outlasted you.

Don't get me wrong.  I hated that Liz was allowed to blatantly help Kenzie in that IC.  And Maria had a right to be furious about that collaboration.  Only if Charlie had participated in that mess could I see her casting a vote for Kenzie but he didn't.  She went and effectively groveled to him on the beach after she found herself on the wrong side of the Q vote and Charlie graciously accepted her story and let her off the hook.   1000% he would have voted for her if their situations were reversed.  Here's hoping the Survivor powers-that-be do not bring her back for a returning players season.  She and goofy-ass, delusional Liz can both go kick rocks.

Sweet Ben is a vibe.  Here's hoping he gets Sia money, a drivers license and some Ambien and lives happily ever after.

Congrats to Kenzie.  She was one of my favs early on so I'm not mad at her win at all.  

[jabRI]

Just read the Parade interview with Charlie.  Looks like he tried to smooth it over with Maria, but her double talk didn't stop, and he had to cut ties.  Good for him, who needs that drama, get on with your life!

 

[Brown44]

53 minutes ago, North of Eden said:

Chima! BIG BROTHER legend!

That's the one. That's when are started my phasing out of watching BB, I watched 2 more seasons after that then I quit.

Edited May 23 by Brown44

[30 Helens]

Pasta is made from wheat flour and water. Applebees hamburger buns are made from wheat flour and water. I wanted to see Liz face the jury just so someone could ask her, “What the hell are you actually allergic to?” 

As delusional as Liz clearly is, I think that her decision to help Kenzie in that challenge was brilliant. At least in terms of how she saw the game. She wasn’t going to win that challenge, but she might win the next one if Maria was gone.  Why not do everything in her power to defeat her biggest threat while she could?

It’s not cheating if it’s allowed. I think no one has ever thought to do it before, or couldn’t bring themselves to tank their individual chances, even for the moment. It’s a different kind of strategy, for sure. 

I wonder if other players will start doing this, or if Liz’s actions will prompt a rule change.  Probably not. Jeff loves it when the players make their own rules. It’s yet to be determined whether he will add “outshred” to the motto, though.

[Chicago Redshirt]

39 minutes ago, North of Eden said:

Wait a minute! Are you saying if there is a tie the goat who gets no votes gets to pick the winner?! That's insane! Absolutely insane! There has to be a better way to decide a winner than leave in the hands of a loser who usually has no business being in the final three.

I'm not sure what the better way would be. Nor is adding an 9th loser to the mix significantly different than just staying with the 8. I do wonder if the split had been (say) 3-3-2 if there would be a forced revote of all 8, if the people who voted for third place would first be forced to vote for one of the top two finishers, or if the third place contestant would then forfeit a chance at winning and be obliged to vote for one of the other two, or what.

1 hour ago, bankerchick said:

In the old iteration, didn't they still have the after-show right after the vote reveal?  While they all would have been cleaner, gained a few pounds back and had a few (several?  seven?) months to decompress, it still would have meant looking at sad Charlie.  In fact, probably sadder since he would likely have spent the time figuring out how to spend the money he was sure he won.

I don't believe for one minute she was not all bitter and look forward to seeing your evidence to back that up.

In the old era, they had the after-show right after the vote reveal to the public, but months after the actions had happened and in Los Angeles in front of a crowd. The aftershow would also feature all of the castmembers and have to accommodate all of them, as opposed to just the jury members and the F3.

So there were pros and cons to that:

 Pros:

1. Getting to see the Survivors the chance to get glammed up meant there was some stunning eye candy

2. The Survivors could address directly issues/questions that came up through the airing of the season

3. This format allowed us to know about some things we might care about, such as: has Uncle Charlie gotten to know Maria's kids or was their friendship destroyed by her blocking him from getting $1 million?

4. Occasionally there would be other Survivor alums from previous seasons who it was cool to get a glimpse of.

Cons

1. The delayed reunion was often overwrought, over-stage managed and filled with self-congratulatory Jeff filler and stupid audience reaction segments.

2. With all 18ish Survivors, often times they'd spend time on rando ones that no one cared about, even to diminish coverage of the winner or other top competitors. Like if this season was done in that model, there would be a minimum of 10 minutes dedicated to Jelinsky, Bhanu and the like. 

3. The insta-aftermath means emotions and answers are more raw and honest.

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, bankerchick said:

In the old iteration, didn't they still have the after-show right after the vote reveal?  While they all would have been cleaner, gained a few pounds back and had a few (several?  seven?) months to decompress, it still would have meant looking at sad Charlie.  In fact, probably sadder since he would likely have spent the time figuring out how to spend the money he was sure he won.

So S1 was the only season up until Ghost Island where the vote was revealed live on the island.  Then there was the reunion show that was months later.  Ghost Island only had their vote read live, then and there because it was the first tie in history.  But I don’t think we found out who actually won until the live vote reveal.  
 

But every other pre-41 season had the vote revealed live onstage in L.A. or NYC, and then the live reunion show afterwards.  Now that’s not to say there weren’t some sad and disappointed faces even then, but I think there’s a difference between having time to process your emotions rather than just finding out your former #1 potentially cost you the million and Jeff saying “so how does that feel?”  Honestly I thought Charlie was going to tell him he didn’t want to talk about it just then and you could tell he was trying to stay composed so he didn’t look like a sore loser.  

[fishcakes]

I've always said the person who wins deserves to win and that's no different this season, but damn. Charlie played a better strategic game than Kenzie did and while I have no problem with someone winning because they had a good social game, Charlie's social game was just as good as hers. Yes, she was kind and helpful to Ben, but we also saw Charlie being kind and supportive of Ben and others. The difference is that he didn't give numerous self-congratulatory confessionals and talk in TC about how helping people is his natural state of being.

Even her statement about what she'd do with the money was her painting herself as an altruist. She said about her salon, "I make no money off the chairs I rent." Except she does. She makes the rental money. Instead of hiring employees and having to insure them and taking a percentage of what the stylist charges, the owner rents the chairs out. That's how a lot of small salons work. Also not super impressed with "this is the first time I'm doing something just for myself." She's in her twenties. It's not like she's lived decades upon decades of self-sacrifice. And I like Kenzie. But give me a fucking break.

I'm proud to say I've disliked Maria since the beginning. I don't think she's that great a player. Yes, she won challenges, but her big strategic move after she lost the F5 IC was to go to Charlie and Liz and attempt to paint Ben as a diabolical, deceptive mastermind. BEN! The guy who just wants to make Van Halen references and get some sleep.

Her vote was probably 60% against Charlie because he succeeded at voting her out where she failed at doing the same to him and 40% for Kenzie because she relentlessly kissed Maria's ass at the TC where she got voted out. That entire tribal council was nauseating, and the standing ovation was absurd. She's not Sandra or Parvati or any other legendary player. She's the person who tried to sell Ben as an evil genius and who thought teaming up with Q = success. She was a decent player in a season of unprecedented strategic blunders, but that's all.

41 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

As delusional as Liz clearly is, I think that her decision to help Kenzie in that challenge was brilliant. At least in terms of how she saw the game. She wasn’t going to win that challenge, but she might win the next one if Maria was gone.  Why not do everything in her power to defeat her biggest threat while she could?

It’s not cheating if it’s allowed.

I agree with this, and honestly, that was the only time I liked Liz all season. But then she went completely off the beam again with all the talk of how she's the biggest threat but now she might lose the game because of her wrists. Like others have said, I too wanted her to be in FTC just for the reality check of zero votes, but Venus's alarmed face and everyone else uncomfortably pretending they weren't even there while Liz was going off about how the other three were lucky she lost at fire made up for it.

Edited May 23 by fishcakes

[Chicago Redshirt]

20 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

Pasta is made from wheat flour and water. Applebees hamburger buns are made from wheat flour and water. I wanted to see Liz face the jury just so someone could ask her, “What the hell are you actually allergic to?” 

As delusional as Liz clearly is, I think that her decision to help Kenzie in that challenge was brilliant. At least in terms of how she saw the game. She wasn’t going to win that challenge, but she might win the next one if Maria was gone.  Why not do everything in her power to defeat her biggest threat while she could?

It’s not cheating if it’s allowed. I think no one has ever thought to do it before, or couldn’t bring themselves to tank their individual chances, even for the moment. It’s a different kind of strategy, for sure. 

I wonder if other players will start doing this, or if Liz’s actions will prompt a rule change.  Probably not. Jeff loves it when the players make their own rules. It’s yet to be determined whether he will add “outshred” to the motto, though.

From web surfing, it seems that it's plausible to be allergic to pasta but not pizza.

https://www.quora.com/Why-I-have-problems-digesting-pasta-but-not-bread-or-pizza

 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Did Liz actually tell Ben she was a millionaire?

[princelina]

I'm still a big Survivor fan and don't have a lot of complaints about idols, etc., and I agree that whoever can get the votes deserves to win, but I realized that what I don't like is how the final 3 is usually so unsatisfactory these days.  And even if one good person makes it the jury votes for someone else anyway.  I also realized that I don't really care for Ben - he's annoying, and the sleep thing would have had me voting his butt off ages ago!  I did want to see Liz make her case to the jury, but doubt she would have won and not just because she's Liz, but also because they were into rewarding a sob story, and not a millionaire.  We were laughing that even when she helps someone win a reward, they still don't want to pick her to go with 😂. But that doesn't seem to bother her at all!

[ljenkins782]

14 hours ago, Rodney said:

Kenzie had as perfect of Final Tribal Council as you could possibly have, and Charlie, from what we saw, just didn’t give enough concrete examples about a game that was intentionally under the radar.  And the few examples that he did give, he couldn't separate them enough from Maria.  That’s on him

I really don't see why that matters since Maria wasn't in the Final 3. If anything, it seems like a feather in his cap that he had this great working relationship along the way but that he was the one who outlasted his partner in crime to be sitting there at the end.

Quote

 

I know Liz is a hot mess and crazypants, but I do think that she actually could make a case for deserving the win over the others in F4.

In addition to her engineering the Tevin vote and arguably the Soda vote, in addition to her being surviving despite not being able to eat anything and not having a single ally in the game she could rely on, it was her decision to abandon her individual game and boost Kenzie's chances in the final immunity puzzle that led to Maria being vulnerable. That was a bigger move than any of the remaining four could boast.

 

Well, to be accurate, YOU could make a case for her, but Liz herself could not make a case for anything. I don't think Liz could sell a life preserver to a drowning man. She was comically bad at making pitches for herself and if she did engineer any vote outs, she was never going to get credit for them because she couldn't articulate her role and with everything else about her, she wasn't someone that anyone was dying to give kudos to. 

Hell, she couldn't even get these people to give her Applebees or pizza, no way were they giving her a million dollars.

Why Ben didn't take her to F3 is a mystery to me. This episode was full of weird, completely out of the blue soundbites about her being some sort of threat, but I don't think anyone really believed that. There were times when I truly thought she was a plant, she was so over the top.

And if he was so torn between making Kenzie OR Charlie make fire, then send them both to fire and may the best person win. 

Kenzie did come off well in those last tribals so not a terrible winner, but I had been pulling for Charlie. And that final 3 last day seemed like a great moment for all of them, just a nice group of people at the end.

ETA: It was so awkward watching Kenzie and Charlie practicing their F3 speeches out loud. Smart of them to do it, but still makes me cringe for some reason.

And Ben looked like Luigi from Mario Bros in those overalls, it was hard to look at.

Edited May 23 by ljenkins782

[princelina]

1 minute ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Did Liz actually tell Ben she was a millionaire?

She told a group of them at the very beginning of the season, when they were all hanging out in the ocean together.  Also something about guys not being able to have her because she's too good for them all😂

[30 Helens]

23 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Did Liz actually tell Ben she was a millionaire?

Yes, and now I wonder about that based on a pre-final interview: 

https://ew.com/survivor-46-final-5-speak-exclusive-interview-charlie-maria-kenzie-liz-ben-8651479
 

Quote

I think playing so "out of the box" is a move in itself. Like, who in their right mind would come into a game like Survivor exaggerating their wealth instead of trying to mask their success? 

Quote

Kenzie saved me from myself that day. …She encouraged me and told me how brave I was to have put my personal life aside to get my family out of poverty. 

Is Liz a millionaire? Is Liz impoverished? Is Liz real? Does she even know?

[JudyObscure]

9 minutes ago, princelina said:

Also something about guys not being able to have her because she's too good for them all😂

"Everybody wants to marry Liz,"  was how I remember her putting it.😊

 

11 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Why Ben didn't take her to F3 is a mystery to me.

I think Ben is the other person who thought Liz might win. He was the one who was really mad that Q didn't take her on reward.  I think Ben is the type to be super sympathetic to anyone who is straight up seen as needy.  In his mind Liz hadn't eaten in a long time and only a heartless goon would deny her food. He probably never once thought that it was her own fault for going on the show like we did. I think Ben thought that if Liz made final three she would win because she had suffered hunger more than anyone else.  Period.

I think the ones who voted for Kenzie were all a little like that.  Q in particular.  They simply took Kenzie at her word that she had never spent a penny  on  herself and let the other hairdressers use her salon for free, while she herself supported her family since she was a child, even though she never charged anyone.  And I'm left bewildered until @Nashville explained it up thread.

Meanwhile  Charlie has been using his law degree to help immigrants and indicated he planned to continue to do so all his life, actually keeping families together and probably  saving lives.

Not that making people look pretty isn't nice, but, come on.  The efforts of my hairdresser are usually gone by the time I walk to my car. 

[Rodney]

31 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Why Ben didn't take her to F3 is a mystery to me. This episode was full of weird, completely out of the blue soundbites about her being some sort of threat, but I don't think anyone really believed that.

I think the fact that Ben and Charlie both believed that showed how out of touch with the social dynamics of the tribe they really were.

[bankerchick]

1 hour ago, jabRI said:

Looks like he tried to smooth it over with Maria, but her double talk didn't stop, and he had to cut ties. 

And, her kids saw that!  I guess in her favour, editing did make her look pretty awesome, and she could lie to her kids that Uncle Charlie was too bitter at her being more popular and upset that without her dragging him along he couldn't win and that's why we don't see him even though she talked about it ad nauseum.

[LadyChatts]

Since S50 is going to be a returning player season, I was thinking last night who from this season I’d like to see return, and who I’m probably going to be forced to watch again whether I want them there or not.  I do hope Charlie and Tiffany get another shot, and I wouldn’t mind Jem although she’s probably a long shot since she was pre-merge.  

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Wait a minute! Are you saying if there is a tie the goat who gets no votes gets to pick the winner?! That's insane! Absolutely insane! There has to be a better way to decide a winner than leave in the hands of a loser who usually has no business being in the final three.

Think about the normal (regular season) tie-vote rules:

1. Jiffy asks those voting if someone might change their vote in a re-vote.
2. If the answer to #1 is “Yes”, then a second vote is held - but this time with the only valid selection options being those players who tied for eviction in the preceding vote.
3. If THAT vote results in a tie, then the two targets of the tied votes are safe from eviction; everybody else draws rocks.
4. If the answer to #1 is “No”, then they immediately proceed to a rock draw without an intervening vote.…

But at FTC the rules are slightly different, because the nature of the vote is different:

1. The vote is for award, not elimination.
2. The voters are already-eliminated jurors, not active players - so the threat of elimination by rock draw is an empty one.
3. There are three options in the original vote, not just two - the F3.

#3 is the really interesting point here because an 8-person jury means a 3-way tie is a mathematical impossibility (a 2-way tie at most), so one of the F3 is immediately eliminated from consideration in a revote - and what happens to eliminated players in the Jury phase of the game?  They become jurors, of course - and the jury which now has *9* voting members, has zero option for a tie vote between  the remaining two.

So, yeah: in essence the F3-eliminated player (and newest juror) gets to break the tie, and personally choose which of the remaining two will take home $1M of Production’s money.

True, there may be a more elegant and/or aesthetically pleasing system out there to address such a chain of events - but if there is, nobody’s thought of it yet.  😁

[gail56]

I read on another forum that back in the Yul/Ozzie season, Albert was told by Jeff that he couldn't help Sophie in a challenge against Ozzie. So back then it was apparently not allowed, if that poster who wrote that is correct.

[Tango64]

I was pretty nauseated by how Kenzie and Liz went overboard with apologizing to Maria after they (jointly) beat her in the challenge. It was so over the top with them practically genuflecting and bowing amid their cries of "You're so good it took two of us to beat you!" 

Maybe there's some truth in that, but if so, just say it quietly and once. The adulation and fear(?) in their apology was unseemly.

Maria looked like she expected no less from them, which made me dislike her even more.

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Wait a minute! Are you saying if there is a tie the goat who gets no votes gets to pick the winner?! That's insane! Absolutely insane! There has to be a better way to decide a winner than leave in the hands of a loser who usually has no business being in the final three.

Ben had a hard enough time picking which one would make fire with Liz. Being responsible for who won (and who lost) Survivor would have sent him into tailspin. 

[AncientNewbie]

41 minutes ago, gail56 said:

I read on another forum that back in the Yul/Ozzie season, Albert was told by Jeff that he couldn't help Sophie in a challenge against Ozzie. So back then it was apparently not allowed, if that poster who wrote that is correct.

Coach/Ozzie, to be pedantic and annoying. But enough about Coach. I'm sure there's no hard and fast rule, because Jeff always likes the good tv. But I also think they could draw a distinction--two people can't do the puzzle, for example, but one could run for items or rebound beanbags or something that wasn't direct sharing. (which happened here, but I'm thinking more on how they might explain it away.)

Anyway, I'm good with the end. Correct winner's the one with the votes, in my mind. 

Not a season I think I'll revisit a lot in the future, but there have been worse. I guess I could think the whole point of the Bhanu show for the early eps was to feature Kenzie more, but mainly I think Peachy loves casting people out of their depth for cheap content as they struggle. 

Edited May 23 by AncientNewbie

[eel2178]

16 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

It set the wrong kind of records (IIRC 6 people went home with an idol in their pocket).

However, maybe that finally will be enough for producers to realize that idols and advantages aren't necessary for the game (as well as there is really no reason to have a final 3).

While searching for the idols may have filled out some of the extra screen time needed for the 90minute episodes, they had no bearing on how the game was ultimately played.

We have also seen enough final tribal councils with one player getting no votes for it to be deduced that there is no reason not to go back to a final 2 scenario.

[Brown44]

2 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Even her statement about what she'd do with the money was her painting herself as an altruist. She said about her salon, "I make no money off the chairs I rent." Except she does. She makes the rental money.

She said what every player wanna say and those that get to the final 3 don't say, they all with the I'mma start a non profit, i'mma donate alot to charities, i'mma open up a business that helps the community,  Kenzie was like F that I want the money for me to live without having to break my back working 24/7.

And I think many of them loved the honesty, they all was thinking that when they apply for Survivor but say all that other stuff to not sound selfish. 

Edited May 23 by Brown44

[eel2178]

16 hours ago, KeithJ said:

Looking back at it, if I was Charlie, I’d be absolutely pissed that three people (Soda, Q, and Maria) changed their votes to Kenzie because of her “story” and not necessarily her game

Having a good sob story has become essential to the resume. Ben, Charlie and Maria all tried to play the Immigrant Card even though for Charlie it was just "Oh, as an afterthought, once I'm a lawyer, I might consider immigration law, so I can score a few points with all you other people who sympathize with immigrants."

[meep.meep]

I would have preferred Charlie to win but Kenzie is OK.

What made me incredibly happy about this episode was the fantastic final challenge - that almost made up for the endless dig through the mud, balance beams, untie puzzle pieces, assemble puzzle challenges they have been doing all season long. 

[eel2178]

15 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Plus the woman must be clinically insane if she truly believes what she told the final four that SHE would have won....not even in 1000 parallel universes.

Speaking of Liz-legend has it she's still out there trying to get a flame going.

I was waiting for Jeff to decide to burst her bubble and ask the jury if she had been in the final 3, who would have voted for her just to see no one raise a hand.

We were also treated to a new ailment: bad wrists (which we had never heard about previously as an excuse for why she couldn't win anything else) that apparently had absolutely nothing to do with her not being able to keep a fire going; however, I'm sure she'll be rewriting history in her own mind to make that the story for posterity.

[suebee18]

Don't get me wrong, I like Kenzie (even though I was rooting for Charlie). BUT, and trust me I have no idea personally, aren't tattoos expensive? I mean, really good ones, like she has, not the dark blurry muddy ones that you can't even tell what it is. So apparently, she's made some money along the way. Oh I know, maybe her employees paid her in tats instead of real money. Tats are pretty (no, not really!) but they're no retirement investment portfolio.

Edited May 23 by suebee18

[Rodney]

16 hours ago, KeithJ said:

Looking back at it, if I was Charlie, I’d be absolutely pissed that three people (Soda, Q, and Maria) changed their votes to Kenzie because of her “story” and not necessarily her game

Soda voted for Charlie.

[eel2178]

14 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

I'm still trying to find the universe where Liz has enough votes to win. She was sure she had it. Ben saw her as enough as a threat to not pick her as a sure goat. What am I missing??

I think that was an attempt to stay in Liz's good graces and feed into her delusion that she was a threat who had to be neutralized in order to get her vote.

I am very adamant that Ben didn't really believe it, or maybe I just can't believe that he was as out of touch with the whole scenario as she was.

[realitytvfan1017]

15 hours ago, violet and green said:

Me, too. The guy had a horror couple of weeks with barely any sleep, panic attacks and night terrors, and he pulled it together in that "transcendental shreditation." It was such a great moment.

I am really glad he made it to the final three, but kind of wishing he'd known to put Kenzie and Charlie together making fire, so he could get second place money instead. Guess watching the season and seeing Liz's edit will change their views! 

The season started out so wonky, so heavily focusing on Bhanu/Yanu, I remember wanting to quit watching. I kind of slept on Kenzie, after she did a mean confessional early on - but every time she had a confessional, she was set up in such a picturesque spot, and I'd be mesmerised by the color of her hair, her eyes, the brightness of them, the colors of the sea behind her, her tats; it was always so beautiful. Then when I saw her being so kind to Ben and sitting up with him, and saw her forgive his muddled vote, I started to root for her more and more. Kind of wish they'd laid off the triumphant music as they did a rundown in the edit of the final three as that spoiled me for her win.

Really sad for Charlie, who played such a solid game. Maria started off engaging, and then showed her vicious side in the secret scene attacking Ben, refusing to believe he didn't have the idol, and being so cruel and condescending he cried. I really came to dislike her more and more, after that bullshit with rock paper scissors, and then her attitude over the letters reward, and her snakey eyes, but I never imagined she would not give Charlie her vote.

It turned out to be a really interesting season, after all.

I hope Ben gets some Sia money, as he did rock!

Agree with a lot of what you said.Hope Ben gets some Sia money too 

15 hours ago, Nashville said:

IMHO the choice to be made by the jurors seemed fairly obvious: vote Charlie if your primary determinant is based on the player’s strategic games, or Kenzie if it’s social game.

On a forum board such as this - where questions of strategy can get flogged so hard you’d swear their name was Molly - it’s hardly surprising Charlie would appear to be a relative favorite.  One thing I’ve generally observed over the years, though, is that accompanying the shift from “old era” Survivor to “new era” has also been a change in what factors most influence jurors in the casting of their FTC votes.  There appears to be an increasing transitional shift taking weight away from appreciation for a player’s strategic game, while correspondingly greater weight is given to their social skills - including increased significance given to a player’s life circumstances outside the game, a subject which used to be verboten from consideration.  This FTC, I think, demonstrated all of these factors to great effect.

Well said!!!

[ljenkins782]

1 hour ago, bankerchick said:

And, her kids saw that!  I guess in her favour, editing did make her look pretty awesome, and she could lie to her kids that Uncle Charlie was too bitter at her being more popular and upset that without her dragging him along he couldn't win and that's why we don't see him even though she talked about it ad nauseum.

That was quite a sharp sever of a relationship built over the entire season. I can't help but feel bitterness drove her choice despite her purported rationale. There was genuine tension in the air when the topic was raised and she didn't say one word to Charlie about it. No "we had such a close bond that will last beyond this game, but I related to Kenzie's story, blah blah", she just launched straight into her spiel. If it had truly been nothing but a game decision, I think she would have framed it differently.

Emotions are emotions and I can't say I wouldn't have done the same just out of jealousy that the other person is sitting in the seat I wanted to be in and that was my last card to play, but I wouldn't be proud of it. 

And honestly, I don't think Charlie would have done that to her. If she'd succeeded in striking the blow to get him out, their relationship would probably have survived it. 

Quote

 

#3 is the really interesting point here because an 8-person jury means a 3-way tie is a mathematical impossibility (a 2-way tie at most), so one of the F3 is immediately eliminated from consideration in a revote - and what happens to eliminated players in the Jury phase of the game?  They become jurors, of course - and the jury which now has *9* voting members, has zero option for a tie vote between  the remaining two.

So, yeah: in essence the F3-eliminated player (and newest juror) gets to break the tie, and personally choose which of the remaining two will take home $1M of Production’s money.

 

I mean, it does make the most sense to have that person cast the last vote. Someone is always responsible for handing the money to someone in a close vote like this, they just don't know it as they're voting. 

IF they wanted to take the pressure off it, they could have each of the F3 cast a "just in case" vote and if they found themselves in a tie, they could open that vote. But I suspect they like the idea of the pressure on the vote. 

I've watched most seasons but they blur together, has that ever actually happened that the 3rd member of F3 had to break the tie? 

 

[surfgirl]

Because I'm still bitter AF about what I consider massive cheating vis a vis Liz helping Kenzie win that challenge. It felt, after the fact, like Peachy can't have an older person win, it has to be a younger, hipper person so he was fine with Liz sabotaging Maria to help Kenzie win. That pissed me off because he always likes to harp on the age of older players. At this point, I think Peachy is an ageist. Sort of a self loathing ageist who fancies himself still the same younger dude who started this show decades ago. Bleh.

As for Liz, she is utterly delusional, and yet so playable. She ate it up when Ben said he was sending her to make fire because she was 'the biggest threat', and she basked herself in that comment and ran with it. When she blurted out at TC, "I would have beat you all" I thought the jury was gonna collectively pee themselves right then and there!

Lastly, regarding whether or not Kenzie 'deserved' to win based on her giving the impression she is cash poor because she's such a giver and makes no income from her salon, to that I call bullshit. Firstly, she's covered in tats and body art does not come cheap so she has money, she just chooses to spend it how she likes. I don't think she's all that poor to be honest. Also, it's not the jury's issue if she has or does not have a lot of money in her bank account. To me, that should not dictate who wins. If it did, then the show needs to change it's motto to: Outwit, Outlast, Outplay, Outpoor, Outnice.

[Steph Sometimes]

3 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Is Liz a millionaire? Is Liz impoverished? Is Liz real? Does she even know?

The real question: Is Liz Moriah?

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, suebee18 said:

Don't get me wrong, I like Kenzie (even though I was rooting for Charlie). BUT, and trust me I have no idea personally, aren't tattoos expensive? I mean, really good ones, like she has, not the dark blurry muddy ones that you can't even tell what it is. So apparently, she's made some money along the way. Oh I know, maybe her employees paid her in tats instead of real money. Tats are pretty (no, not really!) but they're no retirement investment portfolio.

They suredafuck ain’t cheap; my last one (R calf piece) ran somewhere around $700.  At a guess I’d say Kenzie is walking around with something north of $10K worth of ink on her, easy.

[Carey]

Surfgirl:  IDK about the age thing or if there is merit to it.  If so, then so be it, but Peachy has no room to talk.

Sure it's the age based on the players, but the fact is Jeff Probst is well over a decade older than Maria.  Still, there hasn't been many elder players.  I don't know if I have a big issue with that.  If you're between 50 and 60 or a fit 55-65 I think it wouldn't be an issue.  I don't know if having someone well past their prime is worth it if they have no chance of winning.  Same can be said for someone under the age of 21 due to some hidden tricks & tips one would learn in life.

 

[Skooma]

6 hours ago, bankerchick said:

In the old iteration, didn't they still have the after-show right after the vote reveal?  While they all would have been cleaner, gained a few pounds back and had a few (several?  seven?) months to decompress, it still would have meant looking at sad Charlie.  In fact, probably sadder since he would likely have spent the time figuring out how to spend the money he was sure he won.

I don't believe for one minute she was not all bitter and look forward to seeing your evidence to back that up.

I hated the old way.  The "Survivors" looked like they were on dinner dates, aka ugly as opposed to natural.  Jeff would interview crappy people in the audience too.  They whole thing was fluff at it's worst.

I like the raw emotions.  Charlie looked sad because he was too sure he had it in the bag.  He shouldn't have assumed he had a royal road to victory just by getting Maria out and underestimated the remaining three.  Granted Ben and Liz were no threats but he should have been aware of how well liked Kenzie was.

And yeah you don't have to "believe" Maia was not bitter but the evidence for an accusation of bitterness lies with the accuser.  Maria is innocent as far as I'm concerned until there is concrete evidence -- not hearsay, speculation etc -- otherwise.  When a person we don't know about in real life is defamed on the internet it drives me crazy and more than a little sad.

Anyway, Maria didn't cost Charlie the million.  The vote was 5-3.  Charlie flubbed the question session in the minds of the jury and Kenzie didn't.

[watch2much]

I'm ok with the outcome.  the motto includes "outwit" so anyway someone does it is fair game.  I would have liked Charlie to win but I feel he was caught flat footed on the money question.  I have a feeling law school debt can't be that great if it didn't take more prominence. Kenzie nailed it.  I'm just so glad Maria was eliminated.  If she thinks her explanation for not voting for Charlie sounded intelligently thought out or sincere, she's deluding herself.  She came across as someone who holds a grudge forever.   

and I don't think calling her bitter is defaming her anymore than someone speculating why Charlie looked sad.  Charlie had a sad look.  Maria had resting bitch face.

Edited May 23 by watch2much
+

[princelina]

2 hours ago, suebee18 said:

Don't get me wrong, I like Kenzie (even though I was rooting for Charlie). BUT, and trust me I have no idea personally, aren't tattoos expensive? I mean, really good ones, like she has, not the dark blurry muddy ones that you can't even tell what it is. So apparently, she's made some money along the way. Oh I know, maybe her employees paid her in tats instead of real money. Tats are pretty (no, not really!) but they're no retirement investment portfolio.

Yes I know from Mr P's family - they may need $$ to turn their heat back on until they lose their house, but they can always afford smokes, booze and tats! 😄

2 hours ago, eel2178 said:

I think that was an attempt to stay in Liz's good graces and feed into her delusion that she was a threat who had to be neutralized in order to get her vote.

I am very adamant that Ben didn't really believe it, or maybe I just can't believe that he was as out of touch with the whole scenario as she was.

We didn't think he believed it either - we thought that he couldn't bear to take her with him just like no one wanted her on the rewards!

[QQQQ]

Since Liz and Kenzie were allowed to work together on a challenge (heck, Liz abandoned hers and I don't think Kenzie even touched the plank let alone counted any of the holes), would it have been permissible for (say) two players to have teamed up on the final challenge too? One to monitor the Plinko ball board and one to complete the puzzle?