S08.E03: Robot Of Sherwood

[supposebly]

The best: Robin Hood. His Errol Flynn-like characterization was adorable.

 

The worst: Starting some time after the Ponds departed, I'm not looking forward to Doctor Who anymore. I used to be so excited for Saturdays. Now I take my time and do something else before I set time aside to watch.

 

The Doctor is getting stupid, which is not a good look on him. Previously, things happened because he didn't pay attention. Now, he's just working really hard to be obtuse.

 

I don't have a problem with the acting although Clara is getting on my last nerve.

 

It's the writing. I don't care about anyone or anything that happens. How did that happen?

[random chance]

I wonder at this point if Classic Who died out because they kept casting an old guy as the Doctor, and if New Who was so successful because they cast a series of young good-looking guys. Because I feel terrible about it but after this episode I'm certain of one thing: I don't like having an old guy as the Doctor. It doesn't help that PC plays him so crabby and monotoned, but I don't think it would really make much of a difference if he were cheerful. There's a lot of whimsy in Doctor Who that's funny and endearing in a young guy but just doesn't work for me with an old Doctor. 

[miles2go]

I wonder at this point if Classic Who died out because they kept casting an old guy as the Doctor, and if New Who was so successful because they cast a series of young good-looking guys. Because I feel terrible about it but after this episode I'm certain of one thing: I don't like having an old guy as the Doctor. It doesn't help that PC plays him so crabby and monotoned, but I don't think it would really make much of a difference if he were cheerful. There's a lot of whimsy in Doctor Who that's funny and endearing in a young guy but just doesn't work for me with an old Doctor. 

Classic Who "died out" for a lot of reasons, but having an older man in the role was not one of them.

[Pattycake2]

Disappointed.  The arguing in the cell was tedious.  We're beginning to call him Doctor Crusty at my house.  Yes, I kept hearing Matt saying those lines, too.  His doctor could be childish and wrongly bull headed, but then he'd turn around and do or say something that reminded you of his unplumbable depths and immense power.  I can understand the attempt to make the Doctor more alien, a bit more like Tom Baker perhaps, but damn, four was compelling and I wanted to travel with him.  Who wants to travel with Doctor Crankypants?   He's supposed to be the smartest man in the universe.  He sure wasn't in this episode.  And don't get me started about Gattes.  I hold him as guilty as Moffat for what they did to Sherlock.  

[Grammaeryn]

I really disliked this episode for many of the reasons previously mentioned; cheesy Sherwood, bad pacing, clunky lines, Clara Sue, and grumpy Doctor. One of my friends pointed out, as an English teacher, Clara picked out of all time and space not Dickinson or Austen just some legend she had a crush on. That's like me choosing Merlin over Marcus Aurelius. The hell?!?

[Casual Viewing]

Hmmm, I'm still not liking this new season much. I was afraid my abiding love of Kip Carpenter's take on Robin Hood would interfere with my ability to enjoy this episode and alas it did. I did come to like Robin somewhat, especially at the end, but in general the episode didn't do it for me.

I just can't connect with this Doctor so far. I don't think it's because he's an older Doctor since the first Doctor for me was One, but I am beginning to think he's going to end up in the group of Doctors I didn't care for. The problem is that even with those Doctors, I kept watching because I was still invested in The Companion, whereas in this case I honestly could care less about Clara.

Where are the Doctor Who episodes that could make me laugh but also cry? The ones that had heart? Or the ones that had me figuratively "hiding behind the sofa"? I won't give up on the show, but it does make me anticipate each week less.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Casual Viewing

[Starchild]

The idea that the Doctor (especially one who now knows he didn't destroy Gallifrey) still wonders whether he qualifies as a hero is strange. As far back as Pertwee the Doctor had no problem with taking on that mantle.

After thinking it over a bit, I think maybe the Doctor was upset because Robin Hood in person was exactly as the legends described him. There was none of the distortion of truth that one would expect after several centuries in which embellishment had supposedly taken place. In relating this to himself, and in the "who am I?" theme, it might worry the Doctor that his own legend fills people with fear and loathing. Because if Robin Hood really was the guy in his legend, then the Doctor may really be a monster after all.

[Jeezaloo]

I'm still convinced that Missy = Mistress = female regeneration of the Master

[ganesh]

This was ok. I think it would have worked better as a straight adventure romp (with the robots, etc.) without the buffoonery. Or even without. Just go back to Robin Hood's time and find out much of the legend is in fact true, and the Doctor and Clara get caught up in an adventure with him. You can still have the Doctor contemplating what a hero is and a legend. Not everything has to be A Thing. Sometimes you can just do stuff. 

 

Was the bad guy, Lester from Primeval?

[Llywela]

I wonder at this point if Classic Who died out because they kept casting an old guy as the Doctor, and if New Who was so successful because they cast a series of young good-looking guys. Because I feel terrible about it but after this episode I'm certain of one thing: I don't like having an old guy as the Doctor. It doesn't help that PC plays him so crabby and monotoned, but I don't think it would really make much of a difference if he were cheerful. There's a lot of whimsy in Doctor Who that's funny and endearing in a young guy but just doesn't work for me with an old Doctor. 

Hardly. Do you know much about the classic series? Because if you did, you'd know that the final three classic actors were, generally speaking, at the younger end of the age range of actors to hold the part. Prior to Capaldi, the oldest actors to play the Doctor came early on in the show's run - and were among the most successful. The age of the actor playing the Doctor is not the issue. He can be any age and work just fine. The way the character and the show in general is written is the issue. Capaldi is fine. The whimsy of the character is fantastic with an older actor - Hartnell was full of old man mischief, Pertwee was full of charm and heroism. The trouble with Capaldi's Doctor in this episode is that, like every other character on display here, he was written as a parody of himself, his gruff attitude exaggerated for the sake of humour - just as Clara's perfection was exaggerated for the sake of humour. It does a disservice to both characters.

 

Another problem, of course, is that modern viewers have been taught to expect the Doctor as a character to be rather different than classic fans would expect.

 

I believe there is a plan to run this Doctor in much the same way the 6th Doctor was intended - starting out crabby and gradually mellowing him over time, an arc that calls back to the origins of the show as that was how the character of the Doctor was first introduced: he started out an antagonist and gradually mellowed to become the hero of his own show. The plan failed miserably with the 6th Doctor because the show was already in crisis (as miles2go said, the show died for many reasons). And it's a risk here because the style and structure of the show are so very different now than they were when it first started - what worked for the First Doctor at the start of a brand new show, surrounded by an ensemble of strong companions, is a risky move to make with a new Doctor coming into an established show with only one companion to act as a buffer. I enjoy his gruffness and emotional detachment, they feel more Doctorish to me than the juvenile antics of the 11th Doctor or the angst of the 10th, but he needs to be allowed a little charm as well, to offset the grouch.

 

This was ok. I think it would have worked better as a straight adventure romp (with the robots, etc.) without the buffoonery. Or even without. Just go back to Robin Hood's time and find out much of the legend is in fact true, and the Doctor and Clara get caught up in an adventure with him. You can still have the Doctor contemplating what a hero is and a legend. Not everything has to be A Thing. Sometimes you can just do stuff. 

 

Was the bad guy, Lester from Primeval?

Ben Miller, yes. And yes, a pure historical could have been tremendous fun!

 

(edited because I can't spell)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Llywela

[LordBowen]

I too thought of the Ainley resemblance when the Sheriff first appeared. My next thought was, hey, it's Ben Miller. I'm going to love this episode. But I didn't. I liked it (nothing wrong with some silliness) but it seemed so forced. And agree with other posters, enough of the Promised Land references. It's Bad Wolf all over again. Something new, please.  I would however very much look forward to a return visit from the Sheriff. He has just the right amount of scoundrel. I kept thinking Danny Kaye was going to show up to converse with him.

[Jac]

I enjoyed this episode a lot.

 

I don't have a problem with The Doctor floundering a bit and trying to figure out who he is, at all, and Capaldi has the skills as an actor to make me believe that The Doctor might struggle with the regeneration process. I also like his crabbiness. I do want to start moving forward soon though.

 

I loved that he gave Clara the choice of going anywhere in time and space. I quite liked the story though I thought the religious imagery of the robots shooting cross-shaped lasers was a bit heavy-handed.

[Ravenya003]

Fun but silly, and most of my enjoyment stemmed from my abiding love for the Robin Hood legends. And I may be lambasted for this, but a part of me is disappointed that they didn't take the opportunity to reunite the cast from the 2006-2008 Robin Hood series (even though the outlaws and Marian would have been totally wasted in this story).

 

There was one representative though - the guy who played Will Scarlet also appeared on the old Robin Hood as Carter.

 

I can't say I'm hugely invested in Doctor Who at the moment; I haven't been for a long time now, so for the most part I just try to relax and enjoy the fun. Clara in a cute outfit, robots with exploding heads, plenty of in jokes, an attempt at poignancy and depth by comparing Robin/The Doctor's life stories, a reunion between lovers that we had absolutely no time to invest in - it's all fine. Not good, but fine.

[GreyBunny]

I love Tom Riley and am happy he was cast to play Robin Hood.  The only complaint: that unfortunate blonde wig.  

 

Overall the episode was lackluster but I loved their bickering in the dungeon and the best moment was the final conversation between Robin and the Doctor (they're not so different after all).  

[darkestboy]

While I do prefer the first two episodes, I actually thought this was a lot of fun and a good change of pace.

The Doctor and Robin Hood made for a great team with both Capaldi and Tom Riley playing off each other very well.

While I do wonder if the robots were needed as a threat and the Sheriff could've been enough, it was still fun enough seeing them as antagonists though.

Clara certainly knows how to wear the Medieval look well and I did like her outsmarting the Sheriff and being the voice of reason with the Doctor and Robin as well.

Callled it that the young woman during the episode was going to be Marion. Not much of a shocker when her and Robin reunited too.

Intrigued to see where all this promised land stuff will lead to, 8/10

[jah1986]

I don't have anything against Capaldi, obviously he's a very good actor. And I don't dislike his Doctor. But I'm bored. I don't know what's going on.  I don't feel engaged in the show this season.  I don't think it has anything to do with the Doctor's age either. Something is off though and I can't put my finger on it.

 

This episode was kind of cute but I couldn't believe the Doctor was having this petty competition with Robin Hood, it wasn't a good kind of silly, imo.

[random chance]

Hardly. Do you know much about the classic series?

Well no I don't, hence why I wondered if that's the reason it died out.

[LadyArcadia]

I'm annoyed. Very annoyed. Every regeneration I go through the same thing. I'm determined to hate the new Doctor and end up loving him.  This time, I was looking forward to a new Doctor.......and I'm not liking him.  At all.  My dislike for the Doctor has always been before I've actually seen him.  This time, I'm growing to dislike the Doctor while I'm watching and I really wanted to like him.  <insert Tennant "I don't like it" meme>

 

The episode was light, filler, fun. The episode itself was OK. But I can't get over my wish to insert someone else in this episode. 9, 10, 11, they all would have been better in this episode.  I can imagine the doubt that Robin Hood was real and the giddiness about the possibility he might be. Each one would have played it as skepticism with a bit of intrigue.

 

Even the constant pissing contest would have been played up as respectful teasing.

 

But this.......

 

I can handle cranky. But, he's not cranky, he's an asshole.

 

What makes him "The Doctor"? As far as I've seen he doesn't give a shit about anyone.  The Doctor loves humans. The Doctor saves the day. The Doctor loves his "stupid little apes."  The Doctor is the Earth's protector.  For Goddess sake, even the War Doctor that they all shunned was more empathetic!

 

This man isn't "The Doctor" and that makes me sad.

[supposebly]

 

Was the bad guy, Lester from Primeval?

 

Thank you!!! Honestly, I kept pausing and trying to imagine him without the beard and IMDB was no help. The voice, the eyes, a certain type of inflection, I knew that I knew and liked him from somewhere!

 

Clara's hair bugged me too. It was somewhat shoulder length and then she comes out with hair down to there. Does the TARDIS do hair extensions?

 

This is what engaged me most about the episode. I can't imagine that that was the intent.

Edited September 8, 2014 by supposebly

[Pattycake2]

Another problem, of course, is that modern viewers have been taught to expect the Doctor as a character to be rather different than classic fans would expect.

 

 

To me, that is the problem. The Doctor became a huge hit in the U.S. and a global phenomenon based on this new model.  It is extremely risky to go more classic.  Per the lyrics to the Doctor theme song on the Craig Ferguson Show:  "Intellect and Romance over Brute Force and Cynicism".  Those attributes are what drew me back to Who.  

[ganesh]

I don't mind a Doctor with an edge. I preferred Nine, and really only liked Ten with Donna. I liked Eleven. There's a big of manic to him that struck me as his running away from Ten. They're all fine actors though.

 

I think the creactive choices that they want to make with Twelve, from what they say, seem like a good idea. I think from what I'm reading is that there is a bit of a lack of actual fun to the stories. This episode was all right, but it seems that if you're going to go with Robin Hood, there should have been more dashing and derring do. Granted it's only 3 episodes. Maybe the showrunner is nearing saturation and there needs to be a regeneration at the top, so to speak. 

 

Lester was such a great character. So derisive with just a withering glare, but he read all the mission reports and was kind to the mammoth! You get and actor like that and Tom Davis with PC, and that's all you really need. Get the hell out of the way and let the actors do their thing. Don't make them bicker. Where's the swash?

Edited September 8, 2014 by ganesh

[alias1]

To me, that is the problem. The Doctor became a huge hit in the U.S. and a global phenomenon based on this new model.  It is extremely risky to go more classic.  Per the lyrics to the Doctor theme song on the Craig Ferguson Show:  "Intellect and Romance over Brute Force and Cynicism".  Those attributes are what drew me back to Who.  

As someone who never saw Classic Who (except the episodes they showed last year) I was ready to see a Doctor that was more like Classic Who.  I think there is too much pandering to fans sometimes.  (I know that probably doesn't make sense with today's emphasis on the bottom line.)    I like the cranky Doctor and I hope he gets to grow on us.   

[tarotx]

I think once we get what is happening with The doctor, why he's questioning himself and where it's going we'll get a better understanding of the season. But that won't happen as we watch each individual episode. If you aren't liking the doctor soon, you might want to let the season go until you can borrow a friends copy and watch everything back to back. I don't mean anything negative to the other posters but sometimes knowing the big picture can give you an understanding on reflection. 

 

Reflection of course can affect how I view these early episodes looking back as well. I am looking at the Doctor as this cranky, depressed, trying to act like his old self but not feeling like himself guy. If you change the parts so many times are you still the same man? The Doctor didn't just regenerate this time, He has a new regeneration cycle. With what seems to be happening with the season, I just feel the doctor is lost and he knows the legend of the Doctor more so than he knows himself. He's kind of outside looking in on himself. And he views others in a kind of stand in for what he's thinking of the Doctor. 

[Llywela]

To me, that is the problem. The Doctor became a huge hit in the U.S. and a global phenomenon based on this new model.  It is extremely risky to go more classic.  Per the lyrics to the Doctor theme song on the Craig Ferguson Show:  "Intellect and Romance over Brute Force and Cynicism".  Those attributes are what drew me back to Who.  

I don't think going more classic is in itself a risk. The classic show is wonderful - it's where the concept of 'intellect over brute force' originates in the show, that wasn't something dreamt up for the modern era, it's been woven into the fabric of the show from the beginning. I want more classic in the modern show. But a Doctor whose gruffness is not offset by charm and a companion of bland perfection in place of personality...that's not 'going classic', that's a modern showrunner trying to achieve too many things at once and falling short. Sure, qualities such as arrogance and rudeness and callousness have been present in most versions of the character, in one form or another, but they have always been offset by his more appealing qualities - his charm, his loyalty to his friends, his concern for the oppressed, his passion and zeal, etc. There needs to be balance.

 

I think once we get what is happening with The doctor, why he's questioning himself and where it's going we'll get a better understanding of the season. But that won't happen as we watch each individual episode. If you aren't liking the doctor soon, you might want to let the season go until you can borrow a friends copy and watch everything back to back. I don't mean anything negative to the other posters but sometimes knowing the big picture can give you an understanding on reflection. 

 

Reflection of course can affect how I view these early episodes looking back as well. I am looking at the Doctor as this cranky, depressed, trying to act like his old self but not feeling like himself guy. If you change the parts so many times are you still the same man? The Doctor didn't just regenerate this time, He has a new regeneration cycle. With what seems to be happening with the season, I just feel the doctor is lost and he knows the legend of the Doctor more so than he knows himself. He's kind of outside looking in on himself. And he views others in a kind of stand in for what he's thinking of the Doctor. 

Don't get me wrong, I like this gruff version of the Doctor, and the idea of him wondering who he now is, there's nothing wrong with that. I just think there's a danger in pushing it too hard and making him too unlikeable. His gruffer qualities need to be leavened.

 

I'm not, though, in an adventure show like this, keen on tying character development to seasonal arcs that require you to watch an entire season before you can understand what's going on with a character and sympathise with them - each individual episode should be able to stand on its own merits, telling its own self-contained story about the characters and their experiences, understandable as a distinct unit, while also building up to a seasonal whole.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Llywela

[ganesh]

I don't mean anything negative to the other posters but sometimes knowing the big picture can give you an understanding on reflection.

 

I think it's TPTBs job to lay out the broad strokes of the big picture early on, however. The Doctor has already questioned his past actions and seems to want to make right. That's sufficient. It's the execution of the individual episodes that is the issue. There's nothing wrong with a comparison of Robin Hood with the Doctor. There is with the buffoonery and bickering. 

 

Each individual episode should be able to stand on its own merits, telling its own self-contained story about the characters and their experiences, understandable as a distinct unit, while also building up to a seasonal whole.

 

 

Even if it's a serial, a show still needs to do this. 

[truther]

Delurking to say that I agree with a lot of the criticisms about Twelve/Capaldi/Season 8 -- however you want to characterize it. 

 

The way Twelve's been written so far just doesn't quite work for me.  I don't like what he says or what he does.  However, it's also (for me, anyways) been partly the fault of Capaldi himself.  He comes across as a stand-in.  Watching him play the Doctor has been like watching an outtake where the director, say, has been playing the role just to show the other actors how to react.  Too strident, too awkward in his physical movements, too coarse.  Hopefully that's just a new actor growing into the role. 

 

In this episode it meant that the Doctor went totally overboard in his hostility to Robin Hood.  I kept wondering why he was so damn angry about everything.  It didn't help that the underlying story was pretty weak.  Though at least it was better than having somebody tell me that wanting to exterminate a race of mercilessly genocidal machines makes you no better than the genocidal machines themselves. 

[tveyeonyou]

I just can't connect with this Doctor so far. I don't think it's because he's an older Doctor since the first Doctor for me was One, but I am beginning to think he's going to end up in the group of Doctors I didn't care for. The problem is that even with those Doctors, I kept watching because I was still invested in The Companion, whereas in this case I honestly could care less about Clara.

I'm giving this Doctor some time before I decide what I really think about him. I'm practically a newbie since I didn't begin watching until Eleven made his first appearance (then quickly caught up with the previous Doctors) and I really loved Matt Smith's Doctor (your first is always special lol) but as you said, the Companions really have a lot to do with the way I view the show and I can't seem to love Clara as much as I try.

The first episode with Twelve and Clara's reaction made me want to reach through the screen and smack her. I thought she was the Impossible Girl? I thought she got all the regenerations and appearance changes the Doctor went through? What the hell?

I will keep watching, but I want River back, I want Amy and Rory back. I want Clara to stop smirking. I also want a pony.

 

And yay to the poster who mentioned Reavers! Shiny! (sorry, my computer wouldn't let me reply to your post and now I can't find it to give you credit, but thanks for the Firefly shout-out! You pasted a big old smile on my face.

[benteen]

If I can go off-topic here for a moment, I think I found the reason why the Twelfth Doctor isn't focusing on finding Gallifrey.  Because he hasn't gotten to it yet.

 

We see in The Day of the Doctor that he had to join his 12 counterparts in freezing Gallifrey inside of a pocket universe.  To our knowledge, in his current incarnation he hasn't done that yet.  The idea was that all 13 Doctors had been working on the solution for over a thousand years.  The 12th Doctor is likely in the final stages of it and will join his counterparts when he finally figures it out for good.  I only hope they'll show the moment we saw in DOTD with him joining the past Doctors to save Gallifrey.

[Terrafamilia]

Here's what I wanted to hear.

"Sire, the peasants are revolting!"

"You said it, they stink on ice."

 

I find it a bit amusing that there are people who want to jettison Capaldi already after only 3 episodes (4, if you split the premiere). There is a place for them in the offices of the program directors at the major networks.

 

I agree that the bickering in the dungeon (with windows!) went a little overboard but it's a bit disingenuous to to act like this sort of childish thing has never happened before. Nine and Capt. Jack had their one-upmanship over Rose and who had the better sonic.

 

I enjoyed this episode the most so far this season. Moffat is still in charge so there is only so much I can realistically expect but I'm willing to give the actors a chance to settle in.

 

 

 

 

[supposebly]

I don't mind not liking the Doctor. I almost never do at the beginning with a new one.

 

It's just that he doesn't make any sense to me.

Why is he wondering whether he is a hero?

Why is that even a relevant question after defending Trenzalore for centuries?

 

Does he want to be one? Into the Dalek suggests he doesn't.

Does he care? Arguing with Robin suggests he might.

 

I just have no idea why the hell I should care with him in case he does, which I'm not clear on either.

 

And generally, making one character stupid (Doctor) in order to prop another one (Clara), is not what I would consider good writing. So, stop it.

 

"I don't like it" (Eleven's voice)

[wayne67]

 

If I can go off-topic here for a moment, I think I found the reason why the Twelfth Doctor isn't focusing on finding Gallifrey.  Because he hasn't gotten to it yet.

 

I'm not sure that makes sense. Matt Smith remembered shifting Gallifrey into somewhere so it would make sense that Peter Capaldi would know too. It's also possibly an essential reason for why this Doctor feels so lost. The new series centered around the Doctor being traumatised by the loss of his home world and his species and now he's not the last Time Lord he's not even a war criminal killing off women and children to save the universe from Daleks and out of control Time Lords.

 

He's a Time Lord responsible for the retrieval of his species from wherever they've ended up when his whole routine was the man that ran away from responsibility or the war or whatever. That could be a thrilling development for the Doctor as a character and the show and should be filling the episodes with a quiet gravitas or sense of joy or expectation or something. Instead it feels like a dropped plot point that won't be addressed like River Song being uploaded to the library or The Tardis exploding or the Silence. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by wayne67

[tarotx]

I get thinking a show should be stand alone but sometimes they can't be depending on the seasonal arc. The episodes stand alone meaning they have a beginning and an end but the doctor's frame of mind impacts these early episodes when we don't know what and why is swirling inside the doctor's mind. Reflection can change how you view things. Knowing what's up with the doctor might help understand his frame of mind. You don't have to agree with that but there comes a point where you should give up and watch the season only if you find the answer to that is something that satisfies you. Some of you already hate Moffat and have had 3 seasons of him at the helm. I don't mind reading all the complaints. I've been there in Buffy season 6&7. I just wish I would have waited to watch those seasons. Shorten time of waiting for an episode dwelling on what I hate really helps the depression watching something disappointing can cause. Imo.

[wayne67]

I'm still unclear as to why all these robot run ships keep crashing into Earth. Anyone keeping a running tally of these alien ships ? 

Is Earth a shipping hazard ?

 

 

I get thinking a show should be stand alone but sometimes they can't be depending on the seasonal arc.

 

I don't mind a slow build but if things don't feel like they're progressing at all and the episodes don't manage to stand on their own then why would anyone anticipate the next episode or want to continue watching the season. The seasonal arc apparently involves a possibly delusional girlfriend of the Doctor named Missy and dead robots. It's not exactly a compelling season arc so far. At least the cracks in the universe generated their own sort of momentum from the start whereas Missy seems to be cleaning up the debris of the Doctor's misadventures in 2/3 of the episodes. 

 

At this point The Doctor's personality appears in flux and Clara may or may not be developing a personality. 

 

If character and plot fail to compel then the only thing really left is setting and that is random.

[NeenerNeener]

That was Tom Riley? Hot "Leonardo Da Vinci" Tom Riley? I'm going to have to rewatch this episode. I did recognize Ben Miller, though.

[GreyBunny]

Yup, that was Tom Riley.  As I said:  too bad about the unfortunate wig, he doesn't look good as a blonde.   Still enjoyed him and I saw tiny sparks of the manic-clever da Vinci personality peeking through.

 

LOVE Capaldi and I love this version of the Doctor - cranky, perhaps assholish, and all.  I just fanwank his gruffness and neuroses as having been alive for so long he's gone a little batty.

Edited September 9, 2014 by GreyBunny

[mledawn]

Does everyone know the Doctor is old, and looks old now? Does everyone watching know that? Because, perhaps the writers can put that bit in a few more times, I don't think it's been made clear. [sigh]

 

Not a favourite, this episode.

[tankgirl73]

We see in The Day of the Doctor that he had to join his 12 counterparts in freezing Gallifrey inside of a pocket universe.  To our knowledge, in his current incarnation he hasn't done that yet.  The idea was that all 13 Doctors had been working on the solution for over a thousand years.  The 12th Doctor is likely in the final stages of it and will join his counterparts when he finally figures it out for good.  I only hope they'll show the moment we saw in DOTD with him joining the past Doctors to save Gallifrey.

 

 

I love this.  My take on it -- 11 thought that he and all his past selves had finished the calculations when they did the pocket thing.  He wasn't expecting 12 to show up.  And, really, did he ever even know that 12 did show up?  12 broadcast to the Gallifreyan council, but maybe he didn't patch in to the other doctors.  I wonder this because 11 thought that he was really going to die and that he had no more regens, but he would know that he doesn't because he'd encountered his next self.  I know there's the stuff about them not being able to properly remember events from when they run into each other due to time flux or whatever, but he does seem to remember the pocket universe thing.  

 

Anyway, that's an aside, doesn't really matter to this theory, that could go either way.  The point is, 11 thought he was finished the calculations and acted accordingly.  Then 12 pops up and joins in.  So, theory: after creating the pocket, 11 spends some time (unsuccessfully) trying to figure out how to get Gallifrey back.  Then 12 spends more time, and eventually figures out that a certain change to the pocketing process will enable that possibility.  So he pops back to the pocketing moment, joins in, and unbenownst to the other doctors, he CHANGES slightly what they're doing.  Returning to his own personal time line, having first allowed Gallifrey to 'stew' for awhile to learn its lesson and to give him his extra regens at Trenzalore, he pops in back in a grand season finale.  

 

Corollary theory: something about the way the Promised Land works provides him the clue he needs on how to save Gallifrey.  It exists in some kind of pocket universe that intersects with ours at the moment of death or something like that, and from there he's able to figure out how to apply something or other to Gallifrey.  

 

And this has to do with the current episode... uh, not all that much.  Well, it did mention the Promised Land.  Off to see if there's a "speculation without spoilers" kind of thread....

[alias1]

Wayne 67 said:

The seasonal arc apparently involves a possibly delusional girlfriend of the Doctor named Missy and dead robots. It's not exactly a compelling season arc so far. At least the cracks in the universe generated their own sort of momentum from the start whereas Missy seems to be cleaning up the debris of the Doctor's misadventures in 2/3 of the episodes.

----------------------

The crack in the wall (universe) that was inserted into almost every episode of Matt's first season was a perfect example of how Moffat doesn't know how to be subtle (basically hitting us over the head with a seasonal arc).   For me it compares unfavorably to Bad Wolf, that I didn't know was going to mean something until it did mean something.   I don't mind the Missy thing yet (yet).  Didn't Moffat say there will be no Master this season?  Didn't I read that somewhere?   So unless he's lying (very possible) Missy is not the Master .  And why would the Master consider the Doctor (a) (her) boyfriend?

 

Interesting about your misadventures comment.  Someone else said mistakes (sorry don't remember who). 

The Doctor's Mistakes or Misadventures = Missy

 

Or Missy is the first Tardis the Doctor didn't take (because of Clara apparently).     

Edited September 9, 2014 by SierraMist

[taanja]

 

I kept thinking throughout this episode how much better this episode would have been if it was an 11/Amy episode instead.  11's denial of Robin Hood would have come across as a bit OTT, which would have made it funny, which I think they were going for.  Him getting in a pissing contest with Hood to see who was superior, especially when frustrated, would be in character.  Amy being giddy about Robin Hood and being exasperated about the Doctor's/Robin's pissing contest would also be in character.  Now, we only had three episodes with 12, but arguing about plans seemed out of character with what's been established so far.  Clara- I honestly can't think of a defining trait of hers, but childlike wonder isn't one of them.

 

Can I just say ---Thank the Time Lords and all that is holy that Amy Pond wasn't anywhere near this episode! Whew! I wouldn't have been able to watch a minute of it.

 

So. Over. Amy Pond!.

 

Anyway. I am really like this new Doctor. He's an old curmudgeon, isn't he? Reminds me of some of the classic Who Doctors. I also like Clara. I don't need or want child-like wonder in my companions. Her perky personality seems to compliment this Doctor's crankiness quite well IMO.

 

[alias1]

Can I just say ---Thank the Time Lords and all that is holy that Amy Pond wasn't anywhere near this episode! Whew! I wouldn't have been able to watch a minute of it.

 

So. Over. Amy Pond!.

 

Anyway. I am really like this new Doctor. He's an old curmudgeon, isn't he? Reminds me of some of the classic Who Doctors. I also like Clara. I don't need or want child-like wonder in my companions. Her perky personality seems to compliment this Doctor's crankiness quite well IMO.

This couldn't have been said better!  So happy Amy Pond is gone.

[tv-talk]

Anyway. I am really like this new Doctor. He's an old curmudgeon, isn't he? Reminds me of some of the classic Who Doctors.

 

 

I dont think any Classic Doctor that I have seen was ever such a complete ahole and buffoon the way Capaldi was for most of this last episode. There is definitely some obvious classic elements to Capaldi's Doctor so far (Pertwee's action Doctor this last week), however I cant recall a Doctor ever being so obstinate and mean for an entire episode. I think most (all?) previous Doctors would have seen possibility that Robin Hood was a robot in a completely different way, viewed them as a legit lifeform rather than trying to cruelly tear them down at every turn. In one instance, looked like he brought Robin Hood to brink of tears....I dont know, that just seemed overboard to me personally.

 

I still have high hopes for Capaldi btw, just think they need to tone it down a bit with the jerk routine.

[BizBuzz]

I dont think any Classic Doctor that I have seen was ever such a complete ahole and buffoon the way Capaldi was for most of this last episode. There is definitely some obvious classic elements to Capaldi's Doctor so far (Pertwee's action Doctor this last week), however I cant recall a Doctor ever being so obstinate and mean for an entire episode. I think most (all?) previous Doctors would have seen possibility that Robin Hood was a robot in a completely different way, viewed them as a legit lifeform rather than trying to cruelly tear them down at every turn. In one instance, looked like he brought Robin Hood to brink of tears....I dont know, that just seemed overboard to me personally.

 

I still have high hopes for Capaldi btw, just think they need to tone it down a bit with the jerk routine.

 

I finally finished the most painful episode of Doctor Who I ever sat through.  The Twin Dilemma.  And I can tell you that the Sixth Doctor was meaner and more of an ahole then any Doctor ever.  I mean seriously, he tried to kill Peri.  Peri called him manic depressive and schizophrenic on more than one occasion.  I much prefer Peter Capaldi.

 

I haven't posted my thoughts yet because I wanted to watch Robot of Sherwood a second time.  On second watching, I enjoyed it even more!  HA!

 

My daughter and I were laughing and carrying on, and we both looked at each other and said, we really like this Doctor. 

 

Maybe because our family dynamic is exactly like his.  We are a sarcastic bunch.  To the point of sometimes being mean, but we all love each other to death.

 

I am really liking this Doctor.  A lot.  At this point, he is getting second place to nine. 

[tv-talk]

Colin Baker was the Frasier Crane of Doctors.

[tv-talk]

Colin Baker was the Frasier Crane of Doctors.

haha, sorry

[GreyBunny]

Tom Baker's Doctor had more than a few moments when I wanted to stuff his head in a toilet.

[Llywela]

The thing is, though, that The Twin Dilemma was only Colin Baker's first adventure - thereafter his harsher attributes began to be softened by more positive qualities (although it wasn't quite soon enough to counter the impact of four full weeks of those less pleasant antics, a lesson I thought the show had learned). Tom Baker had moments where you longed to smack him for insensitivity, but those moments were counter-balanced by his charm. I like that the Capaldi Doctor is gruff and brusque and emotionally detached and socially awkward...but this is his third adventure now - we're at the point where we need to start seeing the charm to offset the gruffness. He needs to be written with a bit more balance.

 

I do think, though, that the main problem with this episode was that it was written as a pastiche, a parody, and therefore everyone was exaggerated, to their detriment.

[John Potts]

Thinking about it, if I was writing the episode I wonder if it might have been better if there was no Robin in it - the Doctor intervenes because the Sherriff is oppressing the peasants, Clara sarcastically calls him Robin Hood, he triumphs (obviously) and then buggers off. The last scene would be the "Merry Men" going "Who was that guy?" and then one of them pipes up "I think she called him Robin". Since Robin Hood is probably fictitious (or at best, an amalgamation of various peasant rebels), the fact that he'd leave almost no trace would add to the legend (especially the fact that there was no body left behind) and he could even revisit the role in a later incarnation. I'd also prefer a straight historical with purely mundane opponents, but if TPTB feel they need a sci fi element, the Robots could stay.

 

But hey, I don't write the episodes, I just snark on them!

 

Wayne67 Is Earth a shipping hazard ?

 

That's probably the real reason the Vogons destroyed it!

[ganesh]

I do think, though, that the main problem with this episode was that it was written as a pastiche, a parody, and therefore everyone was exaggerated, to their detriment.

 

I think that was the fundamental mistake. I said before it would have been a lot more of a fun episode if it was just a straight up adventure. I don't have a problem with Robin Hood being "real" because there were several people in history upon which the legend was built. The Hood/Doctor comparison is totally fine too, and it's not a bad choice while the regeneration is still new and Twelve is taking stock in his 2000 y/o life. 

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Colin Baker was the Frasier Crane of Doctors.

I didn't really see Colin Baker, but that description would apply to Jon Pertwee's Doctor. Like Frasier, the writers gave Three his fair share of humbling moments. We saw the same thing in this episode, as when Clara is the one fetched from the dungeon, rather than the Doctor (or Robin).

[LadyArcadia]

I didn't really see Colin Baker, but that description would apply to Jon Pertwee's Doctor. Like Frasier, the writers gave Three his fair share of humbling moments. We saw the same thing in this episode, as when Clara is the one fetched from the dungeon, rather than the Doctor (or Robin).

 

I didn't see it as humbling. I saw it as dumbing down the Doctor for the sake of boosting Clara.