Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[AimingforYoko]

On 4/10/2017 at 10:58 AM, ari333 said:

" I feel badly."

"What is the reason I never get a second date, Alex?"

[ari333]

"Don't take it personal."

[rur]

Happening too often on my local news station: 

"Senator John Jones, he …" or "The woman who stole 30 cars last year, she…"

[Sandman87]

I saw a lovely metaphor failure tonight from someone complaining about things being directionless: "I can't see that anyone has their hand on the rudder." Having your hand on the rudder would mean that you're in the water, not in the boat. You would steer with your hand on the tiller or the wheel.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 4/10/2017 at 1:58 PM, shapeshifter said:

This morning I heard an otherwise articulate, intelligent, educated NPR reporter say, "between he and his mistress."

There's a French movie out now called "Cezanne and I."  I thought, "Ugh," and decided to look it up and yep, the French title is "Cezanne et Moi" so somebody's having to work pretty hard to get the English version wrong.

[topanga]

17 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

There's a French movie out now called "Cezanne and I."  I thought, "Ugh," and decided to look it up and yep, the French title is "Cezanne et Moi" so somebody's having to work pretty hard to get the English version wrong.

True. Unless it's meant as the subject of a sentence. e.g., 'Cezanne and I...went bowling.'

[StatisticalOutlier]

I don't speak French, but do know that "moi" is "me" and "je" is "I" and the literal translation is therefore "Cezanne and Me." 

I wondered why the title "Cezanne and I" sounds wrong even without the French title as a clue, and think it's because a title like that has an implied "A story about..." or something like that at the beginning. 

[Qoass]

The irony of the "badly" thing is that so many people don't use -ly when they should.  Every time I hear about how to do something "quicker" rather than "more quickly", I cringe.  -Er is for adjectives; -ly is for adverbs.

[StatisticalOutlier]

I've had it with "you guys."  A while back I noticed that the realtors on House Hunters are constantly saying "you guys" to the house-hunting couples, and on Shark Tank tonight, the contestants referred to the Sharks as "you guys" so many times I started flinching.

I'm old school, but if I were asking a group of rich people to invest tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in my business, especially if that group included a woman, I'd make a point to just say "you" instead of "you guys."  Or even "y'all." 

[bilgistic]

As a raging feminist, I have a problem with "you guys". It's dismissive of women. I live in the South, so "y'all" is perfectly acceptable. I usually say, "Not a guy," when someone addresses me as part of a group of "you guys".

Of course, my coworker said I was being "picky" for saying I didn't want to be referred to as one of "you guys". Fuck you, too, buddy. I think it's bullshit that you're 14 years my junior and paid more, but I guess I'm picky about all kinds of equal rights.

[riley702]

Totally not offended. I'm not from the south, so non-southerners saying y'all makes me cringe. Especially when they spell it "ya'll". I take the "guys" as a generic person, much like "man" used to be short for "mankind", i.e., the human race.

[Moose135]

Growing up in NY, "you guys" is just the northern version of "y'all", not meant to be gender specific.

[SVNBob]

2 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Growing up in NY, "you guys"

I thought it was "youse guys".  Or is that Jersey?  Philly maybe?

[StatisticalOutlier]

6 hours ago, riley702 said:

Totally not offended. I'm not from the south, so non-southerners saying y'all makes me cringe. Especially when they spell it "ya'll". I take the "guys" as a generic person, much like "man" used to be short for "mankind", i.e., the human race.

Oh, geez, southerners are highly represented in the spell-it-ya'll ranks.

 

15 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Growing up in NY, "you guys" is just the northern version of "y'all", not meant to be gender specific.

Growing up in Texas, that's how we could tell if someone we were talking to was stationed at the Air Force base--he'd say, "youse guys" instead of "y'all."

But I don't remember it being a substitute for a plural use of "you" literally every. single. time.  And I still don't think it's appropriate for formal use--same as "y'all."

[Moose135]

15 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

I thought it was "youse guys".  Or is that Jersey?  Philly maybe?

You do get some "youse guys", I think that's more Brooklyn.

 

1 minute ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Growing up in Texas, that's how we could tell if someone we were talking to was stationed at the Air Force base--he'd say, "youse guys" instead of "y'all."

That reminds me of a story.  I'm a young lieutenant, fresh out of pilot training and KC-135 school, at my first assignment at a base in Indiana.  Back then, we pulled Alert in the tanker, just like the B-52s, if the horn went off, they were off to deliver holiday gifts to the Kremlin and we would pass gas to them along the way.  Before you could pull your first tour, and each year thereafter, you had to give a briefing to a panel of senior staff.  For my initial briefing, there were five of us, each covering different parts.  Another young lieutenant, from Boston, leads off the show with "I'm Lt. Smith, and I'll be briefing you guys on..."  I heard that and wanted to hide under the table.  When we had all finished, the Deputy Commander of Operations, a full colonel and second ranking officer on base, starts his critique with "Lt. Smith, I'm the DO, a full colonel, we have two squadron commanders, a female officer, and a senior enlisted with us...please don't refer to us as 'you guys'..."  Then he gave a big smile and said "Just yanking your chain a little."

[MaryMitch]

I worked with a girl from New Jersey, and she said "youse". She told me she was in middle school before she found out that "youse" wasn't technically the plural of "you".

I'm in a border state - Tennessee - and we generally say "you all". 

[legaleagle53]

On 5/4/2017 at 9:02 AM, Qoass said:

The irony of the "badly" thing is that so many people don't use -ly when they should.  Every time I hear about how to do something "quicker" rather than "more quickly", I cringe.  -Er is for adjectives; -ly is for adverbs.

Not quite true.  The -ly ending wasn't common at all in Old English.  Most adverbs, in fact, were nearly indistinguishable from their corresponding adjectives, except that adverbs tended to end in "e," which started being dropped during the Middle English period, so by the Modern English period, adjectives and adverbs such as "quick" are once again identical.  Therefore, one can correctly say "quicker" as well as "more quickly" in order to describe how something is done.  "More quickly" is probably the more common usage in today's English, but that doesn't mean that the older pattern is wrong.  It just means that it's less common than it used to be.

8 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Oh, geez, southerners are highly represented in the spell-it-ya'll ranks.

 

Growing up in Texas, that's how we could tell if someone we were talking to was stationed at the Air Force base--he'd say, "youse guys" instead of "y'all."

But I don't remember it being a substitute for a plural use of "you" literally every. single. time.  And I still don't think it's appropriate for formal use--same as "y'all."

That's because in formal usage, if the intent is to specify that "you" is plural, you would use the full expression, "you all," of which "y'all" is merely a contraction and is for colloquial, informal use only.  That said, you SHOULD cringe whenever people incorrectly use it in the singular whether in informal or in formal speech (as Northerners in particular often do).

Oh, for the days when we had 'thou" and "ye" in common parlance!

[Ohwell]

Well, I grew up near Pittsburgh where we said "yentz" or "yuntz" depending on who said it. 

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Well, I grew up near Pittsburgh where we said "yentz" or "yuntz" depending on who said it. 

What is the difference?

[Ohwell]

13 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

What is the difference?

Just a difference in pronunciation.

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Just a difference in pronunciation.

So they have the same meaning? I was imagining that maybe "yentz" was more familiar than "yuntz."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Well, I grew up near Pittsburgh where we said "yentz" or "yuntz" depending on who said it. 

On that note, I was watching one of the court shows the other day, and this guy kept saying 'howlse' instead of 'house', which must have been a regional thing since he was from Minnesota.

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

if the intent is to specify that "you" is plural, you would use the full expression, "you all," of which "y'all" is merely a contraction

But wouldn't that be "all y'all"?

[legaleagle53]

2 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

But wouldn't that be "all y'all"?

Nope.  That would be redundant, since "y'all," as I said, already means "you all" and is by definition plural.  It would be like saying "both of you both."

Edited May 7, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Bastet]

Just now, legaleagle53 said:

That would be redundant, since y'all, as I said, already means "you all." It would be like saying "both of you both."

Indeed, but "all y'all" just sounds better.  I'm rather fond of "fuck all y'all," and like to think of it as a way of distinguishing second person plural from second person singular, even though I know it's not.  Not to mention inappropriate in most circumstances.  But, yeah, I like it.

[Haleth]

I don't mind y'all and even use it occasionally myself (despite being from CT), but I cringe at the possessive "y'all's."

[shapeshifter]

23 hours ago, Bastet said:

Indeed, but "all y'all" just sounds better. I'm rather fond of "fuck all y'all," and like to think of it as a way of distinguishing second person plural from second person singular, even though I know it's not. Not to mention inappropriate in most circumstances. But, yeah, I like it.

Yeah, I'm guessing since "y'all" came to be a slang for just plain plural "you" that "all y'all" arose to clarify that the speaker really did mean "all of you." Regardless, it does serve to emphasize that a larger group is being included, even if it might be grammatically incorrect.
I wonder if, at the time when the superlative "est" was added, whether there were grammar snobs turning their metaphorical (and possibly literal) noses up at the suffix.

ETA: It just occurred to me that if "all y'all" starts being used for "you," we might wind up hearing "all all y'all." Hmmm. It's got kind of a catchy beat.

Edited May 8, 2017 by shapeshifter

[Ohwell]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So they have the same meaning? I was imagining that maybe "yentz" was more familiar than "yuntz."

Yes, same meaning.  Just depends upon who's saying it.

[riley702]

On 5/6/2017 at 8:42 PM, Ohwell said:

Well, I grew up near Pittsburgh where we said "yentz" or "yuntz" depending on who said it. 

In Southern Indiana where I grew up, I frequently heard this, but it sounded more like a slurring of "you'uns" into one syllable. "Fire" had two, but it wasn't "fi-yer", just "fi-er". Oh, and bell peppers were mangoes, and peony was pronounced "piney". I still say it piney, because I'm stubborn, and I like it.

Edited May 8, 2017 by riley702

[shapeshifter]

Mangoes = bell peppers? Wow. I wonder what the background is on that one.

Oh. Here it is: http://www.word-detective.com/2009/04/mango/

Edited May 8, 2017 by shapeshifter

[riley702]

Thanks!

[Ohwell]

13 hours ago, riley702 said:

In Southern Indiana where I grew up, I frequently heard this, but it sounded more like a slurring of "you'uns" into one syllable.

Yes, it means "you'uns."

[legaleagle53]

On 5/7/2017 at 4:46 AM, shapeshifter said:

I wonder if, at the time when the superlative "est" was added, whether there were grammar snobs turning their metaphorical (and possibly literal) noses up at the suffix.

Probably not, since that has roots that go all the way back to Anglo-Saxon, if not further.

[meep.meep]

So all y'all are not fans of Terry Crews using "funnest" defiantly to Capt. Holt?

[Sandman87]

From PBS NewsHour tonight: "It's been about 24 hours exactly." I'm confused. Has it been about 24 hours, or has it been exactly 24 hours? Is it exactly an approximate statement, or is it kinda-sorta a statement that's specific?

[BoogieBurns]

On 5/6/2017 at 11:09 PM, Moose135 said:

But wouldn't that be "all y'all"?

Heck yes. We say "Are y'all coming? Or are all y'all going to show up? Because I need to know how much sweet tea to brew."

Which means, the people I'm talking to (y'all) are a smaller plural group, and those people plus others (all y'all) are a larger plural group. It only works with context. 

[JocelynCavanaugh]

One I keep hearing lately is "step foot," as in, "I will never step foot in X again!"

This drives me nuts because it's so redundant and silly! What exactly would you step with, other than a foot?! "Set foot" works, since you can "set" any number of things, or just "step" (foot obviously inherent to the mechanism), but "step foot" is dumb. It's one of those constructions that makes the user sound like they're not very smart but trying to fake it. 

[Sandman87]

"Step foot" sounds like a relative of athlete's foot.

From the local news: "President Trump embarks on his first foreign trip to the Middle East." As opposed to a domestic trip there?

[AimingforYoko]

I think maybe a comma would help? "President Trump embarks on his first foreign trip, to the Middle East." 

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

I think maybe a comma would help? "President Trump embarks on his first foreign trip, to the Middle East." 

The only way for the news reporter to convey the comma would be with a pause, which might make it seem like a SNL bit —not that there's anything wrong with that.

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The only way for the news reporter to convey the comma would be with a pause, which might make it seem like a SNL bit —not that there's anything wrong with that.

There's a difference in the spoken language between a brief pause in between words and a full stop at the end of a sentence.  It's only the latter that would take us into SNL territory.

Edited May 21, 2017 by legaleagle53

[topanga]

My local newspaper just sent me this alert: "Woman rescued from condemned Wilmington house in flames." Without reading the rest of the story, I'm a little confused about the modifier. Is the house in flames? (Probably) Is the woman in flames? (I hope not)

ETA: the house was in flames, not the woman. So the modifier wasn't misplaced. But the headline still sounds weird to me. Could the paper have called it a house fire instead of a house in flames? 

[mojito]

I recently heard someone on one of these shows proclaim, "He literally almost...."

Too much word pollution.

People can't love something, they have to absolutely love it, and actually, they absolutely love, love, love it. 

I wonder what conversation would be like if we all went on a word diet.

[Joe]

1 hour ago, mojito said:

People can't love something, they have to absolutely love it, and actually, they absolutely love, love, love it.

It's kind of serial escalation applied to language. Language escalation? Frankly, I'm happy just to like or dislike something. I don't need everyone to know the extent of my feelings on the matter.

[Maharincess]

4 hours ago, mojito said:

I recently heard someone on one of these shows proclaim, "He literally almost...."

Too much word pollution.

People can't love something, they have to absolutely love it, and actually, they absolutely love, love, love it. 

I wonder what conversation would be like if we all went on a word diet.

What I hate is when they loveeeeeee it. I don't understand stretching out a silent letter. It still just says love.  

[shapeshifter]

Confusing NY Times article title: Texas Lawmaker Threatens to Shoot Colleague After Reporting Protesters to ICE
Who did what to whom?

[mojito]

@Maharincess, that makes me think of Thurston Howell the Third's Wife. That's how I would read loveeeeeeeeeeeeee. 

@shapeshifter, as much as I think I need to go on a (verbal) word diet, including not repeating myself, I also think that headlines should be a bit more wordy to remove ambiguity. Of course, someone who would write such a statement thinks that the statement is clear (as a bell). Honestly, I don't know what that writer was trying to say. Geez, NYT?????

[ABay]

Shots and explosions in Manila. Police are corning off the airport.

I didn't realize it was such a popular crop in the Philippines.

[meep.meep]

It's also a cooking technique.  Maybe they are preparing food for the travelers.

[hoosiermom]

These drive me nuts - "two twins"and "up next,but first".