All Episodes Discussion

[Zahdii]

Since Dateline is running a 3-part mini series (Dateline Escape), should there be a special thread for that?  I tried to watch the first episode last week (ESCAPE: The Wreck of the Costa Concordia), but turned that off because it wasn't well done at all.  Anyway, I watched tonight's show (ESCAPE: The Great California Fire), and it was better. 

 

One thing I didn't understand though, was that one family that decided to evacuate taking separate cars.  The parents went first, then their son followed with one of his sisters, leaving his other sister behind.  When he got to the end of their long driveway, he looked back to see her crawling up behind him.  Was she supposed to be driving another car?  Anyway, she gets in her brothers car and they take off, but then he wrecked the car and took off on foot for the fire station where the whole family was supposed to meet up at. 

I didn't understand why he didn't have his sisters come with him.  He made it out just fine.  Then one of his sister's came walking out and she was badly burned.  The third sister's body was found in the car after the fire burned through.  It wasn't clear if she died in the accident, or if she was too injured to walk, or if she was too afraid to get out and walk through the fire. 

 

Then the family says that there wasn't just one body in the car, there were two.  Who was that other person?  The family says it was her guardian angel and they're glad she didn't die alone.  It was very confusing.  Was the second body actually a metaphor?  Or did someone who was trying to escape take refuge in the car when the flames overtook them?

 

These are professional journalists making these shows.  I shouldn't have to think so hard to wring the events out of the show.

 

Next Sunday the last show (about the Indian tsunami) will air.  I'll probably tune in if there's nothing else on.

[raiderred1]

Kaufman County is my county and I live about 13 miles from where Mark Hasse was shot and killed.  Anytime I go into town I can not go by the parking lot without thinking about him.  Our community is a very small Texas town and when that murder took place it had everyone on edge.  As they say, "You just don't expect this type of thing to happen in little old Kaufman."  It went on for months not knowing what was going on the rumors did fly.  We had had a brush track shut down about a mile from our ranch and many people thought it was revenge from the Mexican Cartel.  There was always a criminal element around that track.  Match racing is huge here with the legal and illegal Mexicans.

Anyway, I had jury duty a few years ago in which a gang member killed another gang member and Mark Hasse was the prosecutor.  I remember sitting in the courtroom and seeing him walk in and he was a bit of a nerdy looking guy but when he began to tell us about the case he had a very commanding presence.  Mike Mclelland was a big, big man when you see him in person and it's a shame that he and Cynthia had to lose their lives to two such nutjobs.  It's such a sad case and such a sad loss of life.  

Eric Williams house is about a block away from the grocery store that most people use and the last time I went by there the police tape was still up and the grass had grown completely out of control.  It's a nice neighborhood, too.  I sure would have hated them being my neighbors, not just for the fact that they are psychos either.  Meth is HUGE around here and I wonder if his wife had "meth mouth" because that is what it looked like.  She skeeved me out even more than Eric did.  She was almost gleeful to tell the story. Christ!  Evil can be found anywhere!

[Morbs]

It's Morrison March Madness.  He's the host the entire month.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Morbs

[tobeannounced]

Thanks for posting, raiderred1.  Can you shed any light on Eric Williams' reputation before it came out that he had stolen the computer monitors?

[ChristmasJones]

As someone who was physically abused as a child, I have to say I enjoyed the delight on Charlie's face when he talked about his father going to prison. He had a big grin, and I got the sense he wanted to smile even more, but felt that it wouldn't be socially appropriate.

 

Lynn sure knew her husband well- she knew a restraining order would not stop him.

 

I was thrilled to see the three stooges all get sentenced to prison. They all deserve it completely.

[raiderred1]

Sorry, Tobeannounced, I knew nothing of this pychopath before they arrested him. I actually tried to do search on him(not very indepth) and could not come up with anything about his past life before he came to our county. The crazed wife looked very familiar when they first arrested her but it was probably because I would see her at the grocery store.

On side note, I was called into jury duty, AGAIN, just a week after Mark Hasse was killed and it took some nerves to show up at the courtroom surrounded by soooo much law enforcement thinking you could get caught in the crosshairs. They had a portable metal detector and when we went into the courtroom no deputy was stationed at the metal detector, one could literally sidestep the thing and be through the doors of the courtroom. They held this over at the old jail building not the downtown courthouse, which interestingly enough is right across the road from the grocery store which is in easy walking distance from Eric Williams' home! More nerve wracking was that sheriff stepped in the room and interupped the judge, which made all of us nervous as hell.

Edited March 10, 2015 by raiderred1

[CaughtOnTape]

Since Dateline is running a 3-part mini series (Dateline Escape), should there be a special thread for that?  I tried to watch the first episode last week (ESCAPE: The Wreck of the Costa Concordia), but turned that off because it wasn't well done at all.  Anyway, I watched tonight's show (ESCAPE: The Great California Fire), and it was better. 

 

I watched the Costa Concordia one, it didn't seem to have any issues.  I was infuriated by the time it was over.  It seems like everyone on that ship that worked for the company was more concerned with saving their asses than saving any passengers.  The amount of people who were told to go back to their rooms by staff is mind blowing.  Even when the ship was turning over onto it's side!  

I never quite understood how it was people died being that the ship was close to land and there were enough lifeboats for everyone, but after watching this, it's clear why that happened.  No one knew what the hell was going on and without the coward Captain to tell people what to do and organize, everything went to shit pretty quickly.

I was recently on a cruise and while the married couple was telling the story about having to climb down the side of the ship on a rope I was mortified.  They didn't know they were close to land because they weren't on the side of the ship that could see it.  So they thought they were on open water.  Climbing down the side of a ship when you think you're on open water!?  Holy shit!

And then the lifeboats that got stuck and couldn't lower to the water so they made people get back on the ship.  HELL NO!

 

I will never go on another cruise after watching that.  That Captain deserved a helluva lot more than 16 years for what he did.

[photo fox]

Charlie was also pretty smiley when talking about finding out his mom was murdered, though. My own mom even commented on it. I decided he must just be one of those people who smiles when they're nervous.

[photo fox]

A place to discuss all three episodes together.

[chlban]

I was just glad to see a case where the kid is not supporting murdering parent. That was refreshing.

 

Long Beach is my home town, born and raised there so it was interesting to see a case from there. I had long since moved on when the murder took place. I remember driving around in the Bixby Knolls neighborhood where the murder took place. That house was definitely one of the smaller, more modest houses in the neighborhood. It is made up of older custom homes that range from the smaller ones like this, to huge mini mansions. It's a really beautiful area.  

[hoosiermom]

I missed the end.(stupid DVR) did his son not get to inherit the money? This episode made me cry big time. kind of happy tears because things turned out so nice for Charlie and his moms family.

[biakbiak]

New version of the show hosted by Richard Engel that will focus on "focus on conspiracy-themed investigations and crimes that involve larger-than-life perpetrators and circumstances." Source.

 

The first episode was about the murder of Alexander Litvinenko by Polonium 210.

 

I cracked up at the retired MI-6 agent dismissing the notion that they murdered Litvinenko not because it was ridiculous that MI-6 would murder someone they considered a threat but because they would have just chosen a more cost-effective method like pushing him out a window or in front of a car.

 

 

[jenkait]

As if we needed ANOTHER reason to worry about Richard Engel...

Edited March 13, 2015 by jenkait

[tobeannounced]

Darn, I missed the Concordia one.  I thought the one about the California fires was riveting.  I just can't believe these people made it out alive.  I too thought there were some continuity/editing issues.  There were a couple of places where the timeline just seemed to  jump, and I was left wondering what happened.   I had so many questions about the family with the three kids too.  I'm sure it was a totally confusing (and unprecedented) situation, but I just can't imagine leaving my children behind, at least until I knew they were all safely in cars.  I'm sure if they had it to do over, they'd say screw the cars and all jump in one and get to safety.  I'm am glad their faith sustains them, truly, but I'm really wondering if that second body was a neighbor trying to help.  I mean, surely the police did some investigating to try to figure it out?

[gaPeach]

Ok so how is it if the Polonium 210 was found all over London and just a small drop could kill you ten times over did not kill a lot of people that came in contact with it at all the bars, restaurants, strip clubs etc?  It apparently was administered or handled by the Russian guy that has not been seen for 3 years (are they sure he is alive?). 

 

I had to laugh when the Top Russian was being interviewed and he took a sip of water........or was it vodka?  My bet is it was vodka.  I really thought he was going to whip out a cigarette and light up.

[Ohmo]

I missed the end.(stupid DVR) did his son not get to inherit the money? This episode made me cry big time. kind of happy tears because things turned out so nice for Charlie and his moms family.

 

I thought the show said that Charlie received some of the money but that somehow Fred had managed to keep a large chunk of it.  The show did not go into details about how that happened, though.

[daughtersofanarchy]

gaPeach, I think they were talking about residual radiation in a lot of those places, and not necessarily bits of the substance itself.  However, I wasn't sure whether the teapot had actual bits, or what.  It was confusing and they really should have been more specific.

 

They said that the last time the Russian guy who handled the stuff was seen publicly, he had lost all his hair.  For me, this was a strong indicator that he probably died soon after that sighting.

 

Yeah, any time they showed anyone sitting at a table and consuming anything, I thought *uh-oh*.

[photo fox]

An art student from Dallas who was murdered in her own bed with no signs of forced entry, which leads the authorities to realize that she likely knew the person who ended up killing her.

[editorgrrl]

The victim, Samantha Michelle "Shelley" Nance, was from Italy, TX (pop. 1,863). At one point, Keith Morrison referred to the town as "little Italy."

The story was also featured on a 2012 episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn.

Edited to add it was season 5, episode 13, "The Art of Murder," originally broadcast February 12, 2012:

http://youtu.be/RJieq4teNVA

Edited March 14, 2015 by editorgrrl

[biakbiak]

I am assuming a mod changed the title of this thread but for clarification this entire series of Thursday night Datelines hosted by Richard Engel are called "The Real Blacklist" (and will focus on more international stories) in order to tie-in with The Blacklist which follows it and at least this episode and next week's episode didn't have an individual episode title which is why I modeled the thread after the Dateline Escape thread.

Edited March 14, 2015 by biakbiak

[Morbs]

I guess never dress up as a ninja, the police will judge you for it!

[ridethemaverick]

Thank goodness Daniel changed his story. I don't think I could have watched that detective accuse yet another person of murder. Who would have been next? Her sister? The provost? Keith?

[Lizzing]

I'll have to look out for the Paula Zahn take on ID.  Thanks for the tip, editorgrrl!  Maybe PZ's show will answer some open questions.

 

I was so, so annoyed with the Dallas cop, Ellzey.  He just seemed, well, very sheltered (to put it nicely) or very narrow minded.  First, when he was after Shelley's roommate, it HAD to be her, because there was no break in, and, well golly gee wilikers, ladies be fightin' if they're roommates and they have to know what is up with each other at all time.  Well, I had a couple of roommates in college, and I would have know if they'd been stabbed to death, but we shared one room.  My sister shared an apartment with several different roommates in grad school, and I stayed with her a lot, and sure as shit, if I saw the roommate it was for about 0.5 seconds.  She did her thing, we did ours.  So for Shelley's roommate to not know where Shelley was 24/7 wasn't that weird.  And I doubt seriously Ellzey has girl children or knows their business, because, as disgusting as it sounds, there can be reasons for a smear of blood left behind on bathroom fixtures.  No, not every woman is that messy, but having shared a bathroom with a bunch of law professionals who were a bunch of sloppy monsters, let's just say that my first thought of blood in the bathroom isn't murder, or even injury.  Also, I think Ellzey placed too much emphasis on the "no forced entry" angle.  I cannot tell you how many times my college roommates left the doors unlocked.  Hell, my BIL left the keys in the door last week and he's over 30 and lives in NYC.  The roommate could have left in the morning for class and forgot to lock the door.  Shit happens.

 

Then Ellzey goes after the boyfriend.  Granted, Nathan was a good suspect since he was the boyfriend, but the whole "He collects weird knives? Who does that?"  Plenty of people do.  For a time, even I collected weird knives from ren fests, my father's boy scouting days, and from my grandfather's fishing collection after he passed; I get that's weird, but I haven't murdered anyone, or even accidentally cut myself.  I'd bet there are any number of hunters or chefs out there who have a collection of knives, though albeit not in a footlocker under their beds.  But that leads me to my biggest question about this case: what was the murder weapon?  Did I miss that*?  If they found it, who did it belong to?  I'm given to believe that the types of injuries can lead to a type of knife.  Was one missing from Nathan's collection?

 

Daniel looked like the most likely suspect, and he very well may have been the murderer.  But I don't buy the motive.  A 27 year old guy is so much pining over a 20 year old dude that he stabs the dude's girlfriend of 2 months?  If Daniel were really after Nathan, as Daniel is a gay adult man (been in the Navy and all), he may be testing the waters with Nathan, who seemed fairly sheltered.  But I have a hard time buying Daniel was so threatened by Shelley, after 2 months of her dating Nathan, given how the general consensus was that she wasn't exactly more than holding hands friends/video games/movies with Nathan.  And he planned on killing her so early so as to copy the keys to the apartment weeks earlier?  And no one had any kind of hardware store key copying receipt, videotape, whatever?

 

The only really damning evidence for me (as presented) against Daniel was the blue plastic glove.  I laughed at the notion he bought hair dye to get the gloves, because anyone with any sense knows the gloves that come with dye are clear plastic.  Also shitty gloves.  Ellzey goes off again in the most ridiculous way, "His hair looked fine to me.  What did he have to cover up?"  Well sit the fuck down Ellzey; some of us have had greys since we're 20.  I've been covering up for years and I'm not gonna shame a man for doing the same.  NTL, those blue gloves aren't as good as the fake latex kind that you can get at a drug store for dye protection.  But I can't send a guy to spend life in prison for not knowing what kind of good gloves to buy.

 

*I did miss a few minutes of the broadcast because, for some reason, my local Fox affiliate took over my NBC feed.  I think they share a building.

 

And, BTWs, I realize I sound like a ranting loon about this episode.  It was just so problematic to me, especially the interrogations.  I know they're allowed by law but that doesn't make it ethical to me.  I wish Shelley's family the best; she absolutely came across as a sweet girl who should be creating art for all of us to enjoy.

[LakeGal]

I had seen this one before. I don't remember where but it was probably the Paula Zahn one. I knew right away who the killer was but this version took a long time before the guy was even introduced to us. I was mainly watching it just for Keith.

[tobeannounced]

So hated that detective.  My daughter has Asperger's, and the type of thinking this guy exhibited scares me to death.  She would definitely ping his hinky meter if she was involved in something like this because her reactions probably wouldn't be "normal" to him, which apparently means guilty.

[Lizzing]

I just watched the PZ version thanks to editorgrrl.  That was great.  PZ left out the Dallas detective (which made me conclude PZ couldn't tolerate his wierdness), and almost completely and focused on the forensics in a much better manner.  As much as I love Keith, in the cold light of day, the PZ ep was better.  I get the motive more after PZ. 

 

And why the hell isn't Paula Zahn more prominent? 

 

Also, I'm still not backing down on those dubious tactics of the Dallas cop.  As far as I'm concerned, he couldn't track a Big Mac from ordering to pick up, one window away.

[Morbs]

What about the motive from the Paula Zahn episode was different?  Pure speculation, but the way her career imploded I always thought maybe she personally wasn't all that great to work with.  I thought his motive was he was just jealous and a nutjob.

 

Cops like that really scare me.  I realize in every profession you have enough experiences that you start to go by your gut but police work requires a different skillset and an openmindness to avoid railroading people.  He was like "She wasn't mourning like she lost a best friend, she was mourning like she lost a puppy dog!" like wtf, most pet owners I know would be pretty distraught, and how many times do we need psychiatrists to explain there is not just one way to mourn.

[editorgrrl]

What about the motive from the Paula Zahn episode was different?

"On the Case" was only an hour, so there was way less padding. That detective was only on screen a minute or two—in interrogation footage, no interview. But they showed more of Shelley's artwork.

They said Daniel changed his story because he thought someone might have seen him at Shelley's apartment. Phone records showed he texted Shelley's roommate 13 times the day of the murder—including while he was buying the gloves at Wal-Mart—to figure out when Ashley wouldn't be home.

Edited March 14, 2015 by editorgrrl

[biakbiak]

I have to imagine that sometime in his career Det. Ellzy has coerced a false confession.

 

It was literally chilling when the prosecuters investigator stated they could easily have convicted Nathan of the murder.

Edited March 14, 2015 by biakbiak

[Ohmo]

Daniel looked like the most likely suspect, and he very well may have been the murderer.  But I don't buy the motive.  A 27 year old guy is so much pining over a 20 year old dude that he stabs the dude's girlfriend of 2 months?  If Daniel were really after Nathan, as Daniel is a gay adult man (been in the Navy and all), he may be testing the waters with Nathan, who seemed fairly sheltered.  But I have a hard time buying Daniel was so threatened by Shelley, after 2 months of her dating Nathan, given how the general consensus was that she wasn't exactly more than holding hands friends/video games/movies with Nathan.  And he planned on killing her so early so as to copy the keys to the apartment weeks earlier?  And no one had any kind of hardware store key copying receipt, videotape, whatever?

 

The only really damning evidence for me (as presented) against Daniel was the blue plastic glove.  I laughed at the notion he bought hair dye to get the gloves, because anyone with any sense knows the gloves that come with dye are clear plastic.  Also shitty gloves.  Ellzey goes off again in the most ridiculous way, "His hair looked fine to me.  What did he have to cover up?"  Well sit the fuck down Ellzey; some of us have had greys since we're 20.  I've been covering up for years and I'm not gonna shame a man for doing the same.  NTL, those blue gloves aren't as good as the fake latex kind that you can get at a drug store for dye protection.  But I can't send a guy to spend life in prison for not knowing what kind of good gloves to buy.

 

I buy the motive, and I do think Daniel did it.  I also think that Daniel's perception (and not necessarily reality) came into play here, and that there were cultural perceptions that I think contributed to this situation.  Daniel is Filipino.  A friend of our family has a partner from Southeast Asia.  Though he's not from the Philippines, I know that the friend's partner's family is not particularly comfortable with the issue of sexual orientation.  So, I can see that Daniel might have still been dealing with the issue of his own sexuality himself and how it might have been viewed by his family.  We were also told that Daniel valued courtesy, and he spent a significant ampunt of time "taking care" of Nathan.  By all accounts, Daniel seemed to enjoy that.  We never heard anything to indicate that Daniel asked Nathan to stop being so dependent on him.  Nathan was sheltered, and I think that's one of the things that Daniel liked about him.  By all accounts, Nathan was meek and shy---the type of person that might appeal to someone who valued courtesy and politemess.

 

We also know that Shelley did not tell Nathan that she wanted to break up, which meant that Daniel likely didn't know either.  Daniel might have believed that the relationship was going along swimmingly, particularly since Nathan and Shelley went to that anime convention.  I think it's entirely possible that Daniel viewed Shelley as a threat to any potential romantic relationship that Daniel might attempt with Nathan, or even just as a threat to the dependent relationship that the two men had if nothing romantic ever came to pass. 

 

As to copying the key, Daniel could have done that anywhere, especially if he didn't want it known that's what he was doing.  I also think he could have copied the key, not with the specific intention of killing Shelley but more for the initial purpose of keeping tabs on Shelley.  Daniel liked things a certain way, and that implies liking to dictate control of a situation.  He liked people to be polite, he liked doing things for Nathan, so it's very plausible to me that, with the opportunity of having Ashley's keys, Daniel made a copy for a future way to keep tabs on Shelley since she was in Nathan's orbit.  I don't think Daniel copied the key with the intention of murder, but I think he used the key for that purpose because he already happened to have it.

 

It's not that I don't think that Nathan or Ashley couldn't have committed the murder.  They could, but there's nothing that links them to it in any significant way.  I don't think Chris was involved, and I don't think it was an intruder.  That leaves Daniel, and circumstantial or not, I think the evidence points more to him than anyone else.

 

Oh and another thing...the show said Daniel was a pastry chef in the Navy.  My sister went to culinary school and studied pastry.  One of the classes that she had to take was about cleaning and food safety.  Daniel would have likely had similar training, which would given him knowledge on how to leave minimal evidence behind.  I agree that the cop made some erroneous assumptions, but the two prosecutors said they worked the case backwards to ensure that it wasn't Nathan.  They also interviewed Ashley several times, and nothing popped that led to Nathan or Ashley.  They were effectively checking the cop's work, and they also arrived at Daniel.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Ohmo

[CMH1981]

Wow, that Daniel kid is a really messed up in the head.  He seems the type that will go to his grave claiming his innocence.  I can totally buy his "mothering" of Nathan in his mind is all leading up to implied romantic intentions b/t the two.  What I can't figure out is if he was so meticulous about planning the murder and everything, how could he be so damned stupid to mention the Walmart purchases, I mean yes eventually they would have ran his financials to pinpoint where he was, but still...  It's the little things that screw a person in the end.

 

I bet in the end Daniel thinks wow...if I just waited a day or so I would have had Nathan all to myself considering Shelly was going to break up w/ him.

 

I kept thinking that the reason Nathan wasn't giving his side was b/c he was incarcerated for the murder, but after all this and being an introvert i'm sure he just wanted to move on.  The detective was strange as others pointed out b/c of his views on what is and isn't normal.

 

I really think Shelly's parents will end up divorcing like some parents do after the death of a child.  The fact that the mother can't forgive yet, and the father has plus his comment that if you can't forgive it will just eat you inside seemed to speak volumes of the state of their marriage, but maybe that was just me reading too much into it.

[ElleBee]

 He was like "She wasn't mourning like she lost a best friend, she was mourning like she lost a puppy dog!" like wtf, most pet owners I know would be pretty distraught, and how many times do we need psychiatrists to explain there is not just one way to mourn.

 

That struck me too. Granted I'm a dog person, but I think I'd be pretty close to equally distraught if my puppy was run over by a car (which I believe was the cop's scenario) as if a roommate, who I wasn't particularly close to, was killed. Obviously the impact and scale of a human murder is much greater but in terms of initial reaction and sobbiness, I don't think I'd show too much of a difference.

 

I have to imagine that sometime in his career Det. Ellzy has coerced a false confession.

 

It was literally chilling when the prosecuters investigator stated they could easily have convicted Nathan of the murder.

 

I think he's one of those detectives who prides himself on his "sixth sense" and goes like a bulldog to prove himself right. After watching these shows, no matter how innocent I am I wouldn't walk into an interrogation without an attorney. It's scary how certain detectives and prosecutors will reach a conclusion first and then afterwards search out the pieces to make it fit.

[Ohmo]

I really think Shelly's parents will end up divorcing like some parents do after the death of a child.  The fact that the mother can't forgive yet, and the father has plus his comment that if you can't forgive it will just eat you inside seemed to speak volumes of the state of their marriage, but maybe that was just me reading too much into it.

 

I hope not, and I'm with Shelley's mom.  If her dad has forgiven Daniel, that's obviously for her dad to decide, but I don't think there's a thing wrong with Shelley's mom not forgiving Daniel.  He stabbed her child 40 times.

 

Oh and I found Daniel's appeal online.  Since he's still in prison and it was filed in 2012, I'm hoping it was denied.

 

Appeal

[editorgrrl]

I found Daniel's appeal online. Since he's still in prison and it was filed in 2012, I'm hoping it was denied.

Appeal

The appeal was based on 1. A supposed "lack of evidence," and 2. Military records were introduced at trial in which Daniel confessed to homicidal thoughts and to destroying his brother's bedroom with a samurai sword.

[jenkait]

He was like "She wasn't mourning like she lost a best friend, she was mourning like she lost a puppy dog!" like wtf, most pet owners I know would be pretty distraught, and how many times do we need psychiatrists to explain there is not just one way to mourn.

 

I know, WHAT THE HELL?  Actually I think his wording was "like her puppy was ran over", not even lost.  That is TRAUMATIC.  It's different than your roommate dying obviously, but I don't see how you can use one to compare the other, like...at all.  There is not a standard reaction for each situation.  What if you loved your dog but hated your roommate?  Just saying.  That was ridiculous.

[Ohmo]

The appeal was based on 1. A supposed "lack of evidence," and 2. Military records were introduced at trial in which Daniel confessed to homicidal thoughts and to destroying his brother's bedroom with a samurai sword.

 

I admit to skimming once I saw that the PDF was 44 pages.  I saw "insufficient evidence" and that he supposedly didn't get some constitional right to confrontation under the Texas constitution.  Since I think he's guilty, I wasn't all that interested in his appeal.  i was hunting for any sort of update about Shelley's family...or maybe Nathan.  I wasn't expecting to find a full appeal document, but I know that some find that sort of material interesting to read in a legal sense.

[editorgrrl]

I was hunting for any sort of update about Shelley's family...or maybe Nathan.

If I were Nathan, I'd have changed my name.

I always think about the victims and those they leave behind. I guess I've never really considered what happens to exonerated suspects.

[CMH1981]

If Nathan was as much an introvert as we were told and from the way the interrogation video went i'm guessing he is probably in therapy now and for the rest of his life.  I understand why the detective had to be tough on all the "suspects" but I can't imagine how damaging to one's psyche that would be after all the dust settles.  I mean in what, the span of a few days he finds out his girlfriend was brutally murdered, he is hauled in for questioning and maintains his innocence after the detective berates him, finds out his girlfriend was actually considering breaking up w/ him, then finds out there is a bag w/ his girlfriends blood on it in his bathroom, and finally that the person/roommate who took him under his wing/acted as a pseudo-father (considering they said he was raised by his mother/grandmother) was actually obsessed/in love with him to the degree that he killed his girlfriend.  I actually wonder if Nathan might be gay based off of his and Shelley's stunted relationship.

 

I was actually impressed that Nathan had enough smarts to know to ask for a lawyer once the detective brought up the baggie w/ blood on it.  At that point though, w/ the way the detective said Nathan just went quiet and asked for the lawyer I assumed that he was the killer.  

Edited March 15, 2015 by CMH1981

[JudyObscure]

Det. Ellzy thinks normal girl roommates spend the evenings in their quilted pink robes giving each other home perms and giggling.  I hope no one ever tells him about girls who come home form class, change into their club clothes, leave, stay out to three doing shocking things. I don't think some of my housemates knew my name.

 

Poor Nathan, wasn't he sad when he lifted his shirt to show his slender white body?  Of course he had scratch marks, skin like that would break out from strong fabric softener.

 

I loved Keith in the final interview with Daniel, egging him on to talk about rude people.  I thought he came close to getting Daniel to say that those who lacked courtesy deserved to die. 

[applecrisp]

I am just glad everyone thought the detective was a jerk.  Sometimes when I watch these shows I have a strong reaction,like with the cop.  I come here and mostly everyone agrees.  Makes me feel better.

[zxy556575]

I was playing computer games and didn't even glance up long enough to see the detective's face or expressions, so perhaps that made a difference. Just hearing his voice, I was mentally congratulating him for not focusing solely on one suspect but pretty much giving all three of them the same amount of guff. I agree that he had a very circumscribed view of what was "normal" behavior. Then I flipped back to his side about 19 year-olds referring to themselves as boyfriend/girlfriend when they hadn't even kissed. They weren't in 6th grade after all.

 

What I did find a little startling was hearing the prosecutors cheerfully, and with what sounded to me like relish, saying they could just as easily have prosecuted Nathan.

Edited March 15, 2015 by lordonia

[Fable]

I thought that detective was a bit of an ass too.  Some of the behaviors of his suspects that he thought were incredible and absurd are things that, while may not be the absolute norm, were still within the realm of possibility.  Even more so was the way he treated the roommate, the boyfriend and Daniel, essentially calling them liars and twisting evidence to get them to break.  They were young and probably easily intimated, but you can bet your bottom dollar, if any detective took that tack with me, that interview would have been over right quick without another word spoken until I had lawyered up.  Asking tough questions is one thing…bullying is another thing altogether!

[Diana Berry]

Thought I was the only one that was fascinated by the detective. After seeing the recent 48 hours about the false confession by the daycare worker( and other shows with the same topic), I was expecting the roommate to breakdown and confess. Glad she didn't get flustered and admit something.

My heart goes out to the parents.

[jenkait]

So I've only gotten about 1/2 way through the episode since I've been working all weekend, and since I checked this board and realized I actually have seen the Paula Zahn version of it.  I'll watch the rest of it maybe tomorrow.

 

I just wanted to add a THANK YOU to the poster above mentioning about how "she MUST'VE known her victim" since there was no forced entry is a very myopic POV...lazy and inaccurate.  Because...people forget to lock their doors, it happens!  I did it actually quite often when I was younger, I still do once in awhile!  Some people are going to be more vigilant than others but also...if not Shelley, well she had a roommate who could've come home to grab some food or books and left again, who knows?

 

Definitely in agreement about the detective, with the "no forced entry" and everything else...  I was cringing at how he was saying college girls who were roommates fought over boys (I fully expected him to add "...and clothes" actually).  Like...he would know?  It was like his knowledge of student behavior came out of reading Sweet Valley High or something, he was stereotypical and rigid, and making assumptions...that's very, very dangerous IMHO.

 

One last thing: it WAS refreshing to hear a victim described in ways other than "she lit up a room", like this girl enjoyed being a homebody and drawing, nothing wrong with that!  Her artwork was incredible.

[jenkait]

It seems like everyone on that ship that worked for the company was more concerned with saving their asses than saving any passengers.  The amount of people who were told to go back to their rooms by staff is mind blowing.  Even when the ship was turning over onto it's side!

 

The older I get the more cynical I get; I don't trust what TPTB tell me because I figure they have their own agenda, and I find that people in powerful positions usually will try to save their own asses...even try to save FACE...rather than be honorable.  It's just how it is.  People cannot be trusted just because they have attained some higher-up position; it seems actually the opposite at times.  So, I was disgusted but not at all surprised about "everything's fine, everyone!" at first.  However...when the ship was sinking and rolling over and they STILL were telling people to go back to their rooms...that was incredible.  They were sending people to their death!  Luckily most people listened to their own fear.  I can't believe how long the captain persevered; running the ship aground may have got him fired but all the denial got him sent to jail!

[psychoticstate]

Watching this detective accuse every single suspect or potential suspect of Shelley's murder makes it very clear how the West Memphis 3 were convicted.   Good grief.

 

This episode felt very bloated to me.  Couldn't they have done it in an hour?   Really sad for Shelley and her family.

 

I haven't check out Daniel's appeal but I'm guessing he's going to blame the Navy for not diagnosing him as a violent  and jealous asshole?  Yeah, whatever, Daniel.  The Navy is full of them.

 

Shelley's artwork WAS incredible.

[pigs-in-space]

The dateline episode that stuck with me wasn't so much because of the murder itself, but because of the victim's mother.  The woman's daughter was murdered, and once the killer was found, this woman was badass.  She was pissed, and insisted on talking to the murderer and finding out how exactly her daughter died, and waited outside the jail when he wouldn't meet with her, going so far as to heckle the man's family members who came to visit.  But the best part was that even though she was (rightfully) angry, she not only channeled that energy into her daughter's case, but founded a nonprofit that helps search for other missing people.  She herself located another murdered woman in a completely unrelated case, and was able to provide support to that victim's family.

 

That episode also had another victim who was attacked by the murderer but managed to fight and escape, and later testified against him at the trial.  It was a fascinating episode all around, and of course I'm forgetting the names of every single person involved.

 

ETA: There's another one that was just so bizarre that it also sticks out in my mind.  A woman fell down a flight of stairs, her husband was accused of murder, and there was this theory that she was attacked by an owl, injured and then stumbled down the stairs herself.  There was some evidence that she might have had tiny pieces of owl feathers in her hair, but it didn't seem like it could be conclusively proved either way.  But it was certainly not something you hear everyday.

Edited March 16, 2015 by pigs-in-space

[walnutqueen]

The dateline episode that stuck with me wasn't so much because of the murder itself, but because of the victim's mother.  The woman's daughter was murdered, and once the killer was found, this woman was badass.  She was pissed, and insisted on talking to the murderer and finding out how exactly her daughter died, and waited outside the jail when he wouldn't meet with her, going so far as to heckle the man's family members who came to visit.  But the best part was that even though she was (rightfully) angry, she not only channeled that energy into her daughter's case, but founded a nonprofit that helps search for other missing people.  She herself located another murdered woman in a completely unrelated case, and was able to provide support to that victim's family.

 

That episode also had another victim who was attacked by the murderer but managed to fight and escape, and later testified against him at the trial.  It was a fascinating episode all around, and of course I'm forgetting the names of every single person involved.

 

pigs-in-space :  John Gardner murdered Amber Dubois and Chelsea King.  Amber's mom Carrie McGonigle and her search dog Amber found the remains of nursing student Michelle Le.  Chelsea's parents worked tirelessly to pass "Chelsea's Law" here in California.

 

I'm familiar with the two murders because they happened right here in San Diego County.  The whole story is absolutely chilling.

[RedheadZombie]

ETA: There's another one that was just so bizarre that it also sticks out in my mind.  A woman fell down a flight of stairs, her husband was accused of murder, and there was this theory that she was attacked by an owl, injured and then stumbled down the stairs herself.  There was some evidence that she might have had tiny pieces of owl feathers in her hair, but it didn't seem like it could be conclusively proved either way.  But it was certainly not something you hear everyday.

 

Michael Peterson and his wife Kathleen.  He was convicted for her murder in 2003, but he was granted a new trial in 2011 (in part for the owl theory) and released under house arrest.  Last October, a new attorney was appointed.  I've seen no updates since then.

 

What made the case so fascinating, was the fact that Kathleen is not the first woman he knew that died from a fall down the stairs.  A good friend, Elizabeth Ratliff, died in Germany (Peterson was her neighbor) in 1985.  After Kathleen was murdered, Elizabeth's body was exhumed and brought to North Carolina.  Cause of death was changed to homicide.  During the trial for Kathleen's murder, the prosecution wasn't allowed to say that Michael murdered Elizabeth, but they were allowed to bring in evidence of the murder, and compare the similarities of the deaths.

 

Strangely, Michael raised Elizabeth's two daughters from Germany.  They have vehemently supported him.  I don't buy the owl theory, and I find myself irritated by the willful blindness of Elizabeth's daughters. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[editorgrrl]

This episode felt very bloated to me.  Couldn't they have done it in an hour?   Really sad for Shelley and her family.

 

I haven't check out Daniel's appeal but I'm guessing he's going to blame the Navy for not diagnosing him as a violent  and jealous asshole?  Yeah, whatever, Daniel.  The Navy is full of them.

 

So much filler! "On the Case with Paula Zahn" took half as long to cover the same story. And "Dateline" reruns are only an hour on ID (Investigation Discovery).

 

Daniel's appeal blames the military for providing his records to the prosecution. His position has always been that he's a great guy. After all, he has two sisters!