All Episodes Discussion

[Tdoc72]

Michelle left a notebook where she took notes of things Cal said to her. Her family might have said things too, but the 'kill you & never find the body' comment were from her notebook. And she was trying to get away from him through divorce. I think it was his attorney that told him to stay in the house until things were settled. I still think he got away with murder. I hope they find her remains someday, so her family can lay her to rest. 

[Christina]

Part of the issue in Dahlia's case is that her husband was a scam artist himself. The jurors didn't like him, and he was transferring his property to her so that he could continue to defraud the victims of his Ponzi scheme. I think they thought it was possible that he was in on it. I would have convicted her, though.

Not Cal Harris. I think that he is so arrogant that the police didn't like him and ignored all other evidence. Within a few days, someone reported seeing her argue with a man at the end of her driveway. He passed away in a car accident, I think, and the police never looked into it. That's why the man coming forward several years later had to be considered; this was not new info to the police.

The victim had been scamming men, including a co-worker who had spent time in prison for domestic violence. He wasn't looked into by the police. She also had a man who had been engaged to another women, purchase a home for them in her area. She was supposed to put half down but didn't have it. He left his fiance for her, and neither he nor the ex-fiance were looked into for this crime. He ended up going back to the ex and marrying her. One of her friends told the police that she had a few men on the side, and was receiving money from all of them. She didn't know the names, and it sounded like prostitution. Cal was such an arrogant ass the police decided he was guilty, without the evidence to prove it.

[JudyObscure]

The thing that always gets me about the threats is that someone will report something like, "He told her that someday he was going to kill her and cut her up in little pieces and dissolve her in acid," and Josh or Keith will drone, "Of course we all say things in anger that we don't really mean."  Riiiiight.  We all just toss that  out when the laundry gets left in the washer,  um hum.

[iMonrey]

The one about the nursing student who vanished . . . the title of this one was "Vanished." It's like they're not even trying anymore.

There was so much filler in this, it could so easily have been cut down to one hour. Too many false leads and red herrings when clearly they knew from the start who the culprit was.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 7:35 AM, JudyObscure said:

The thing that always gets me about the threats is that someone will report something like, "He told her that someday he was going to kill her and cut her up in little pieces and dissolve her in acid," and Josh or Keith will drone, "Of course we all say things in anger that we don't really mean."  Riiiiight.  We all just toss that  out when the laundry gets left in the washer,  um hum.

Josh is so incredibly smug and condescending, that I often struggle through his stories.  Keith also suffers from these two things, but he's Keith, and at least he has a sense of humor.

[One Tough Cookie]

If you are looking for a good book about Manson, can I suggest "The Ultimate Evil" written by Maury Terry back in the 90s.  H started out with Berkowitz {Son of Sam} and winds his was across the country  exploring different crime and is sure SOS was somehow connected.  It is a long read but I found it highly interesting.  I believe it's available on Amazon.

 

I heard today that Charlie I very sick in the prison hospital and the cockles of my stony heart were warmed.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 0:07 PM, Cherrio said:

Roman Polanski seriously suspected John Phillips of the murders at one point and secretly went to his house to look for evidence.

Any details why he was suspicious of John Phillips?  I believe Phillips was an absolutely disgusting person, but a mass murderer?

Speaking of disgusting humans, I wonder if Polanski would have been given a Hollywood pass for child rape and sodomy if he didn't have his wife's tragic murder to coast on.

[Cherrio]

1 minute ago, RedheadZombie said:

Any details why he was suspicious of John Phillips?  I believe Phillips was an absolutely disgusting person, but a mass murderer?

I seem to remember hearing or reading somewhere that he suspected Phillips because he owned guns, which in those days would be unusual within the musician crowd.

I am sure that he also might of suspected him because of him being so creepy too.  Mama Cass also held court in her home with a very unsavory crowd. Lots of dangerous folks.

[biakbiak]

59 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Any details why he was suspicious of John Phillips?  I believe Phillips was an absolutely disgusting person, but a mass murderer?

Speaking of disgusting humans, I wonder if Polanski would have been given a Hollywood pass for child rape and sodomy if he didn't have his wife's tragic murder to coast on.

John was supposed to be there the night of the murders and Roman thought it was retaliation for an affair that he had with Michelle. He also knew Manson and the Family. This has a few details. Including that apparently Roman tried to threaten a confession out of him.

Edited January 5, 2017 by biakbiak

[Cherrio]

There are a lot of books (I have read) about Laurel Canyon back in those days.  It was the place to live.  Well, John Phillips had to be different and live in Bel Air.

 Anyway, you can read a lot of tidbits about Manson that are not well known in these books.   I will try and find the books on my packed shelves and list the titles.

[Lsk02]

For others still following this trainwreck, here is a (very long) article revisiting everything from the beginning. There are some details not covered by Dateline included. 

https://www.stlmag.com/longform/pam-hupp/

[psychoticstate]

On 1/5/2017 at 3:49 PM, biakbiak said:

John was supposed to be there the night of the murders and Roman thought it was retaliation for an affair that he had with Michelle. He also knew Manson and the Family. This has a few details. Including that apparently Roman tried to threaten a confession out of him.

This is correct.  I also think there was a rumor floating around at the time that someone had been in the home, doing drugs, and had freaked out and killed everyone present.  Sounds crazy but makes more sense than the Helter Skelter theory. 

No one trusted anyone right after the murders.  Sharon Tate was known to be a sweet, guileless person without an enemy in the world.  It would make sense that Polanski would think that perhaps he was the target (John Phillips being angry about an affair with Michelle).  I recall that Polanski stated he inspected Phillips' car, searching for bloodstains. 

[hoosiermom]

15 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

For others still following this trainwreck, here is a (very long) article revisiting everything from the beginning. There are some details not covered by Dateline included. 

https://www.stlmag.com/longform/pam-hupp/

This was very well written and thanks for sharing. Hell, as crazy as this whole thing is, when I hear of an unsolved murder, my mind goes immediately to Pam Hupp's possible involvement!

[cooksdelight]

Did anyone besides me think "The Ross Harris Show" was some kind of PR ploy to garner sympathy before his next appeal? 

[Court]

I haven't watched it yet because I was afraid of that and it would tick me off.

I live where it happened so I know the case pretty well. Several of my friends went to church with him. I know the route from CFA to Home Depot. It's not a long drive. During the trial, most of all the legal experts thought he wouldn't be found guilty. Partly because they thought the jury would feel he "suffered enough already".

He's guilty. The defense twisted themselves in circles trying to prove he isn't. 

I know that there have been cases where people genuinely forget when their routine is altered.This is not one of those cases.

[Enero]

54 minutes ago, Court said:

I haven't watched it yet because I was afraid of that and it would tick me off.

I live where it happened so I know the case pretty well. Several of my friends went to church with him. I know the route from CFA to Home Depot. It's not a long drive. During the trial, most of all the legal experts thought he wouldn't be found guilty. Partly because they thought the jury would feel he "suffered enough already".

He's guilty. The defense twisted themselves in circles trying to prove he isn't. 

I know that there have been cases where people genuinely forget when their routine is altered.This is not one of those cases.

I live in the area as well and also know all about this case. I watched the first 10 minutes then turned the channel because it was clear this was going to be all PR for him due to the numerous pictures and videos they were showing of him being a "loving" dad. 

When the case first happened I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because as been stated such cases have unfortunately happened before and really what kind of parent would first kill there child, but also in such a monsterous way. Well when I learned what happened it became clear that it was indeed murder. Years ago I used to work at that Home Depot and would sometimes go to that Chick-fil-A for breakfast and lunch. It is literally two minutes away from the office. TWO minutes! There's no way he would've forgot his kid that fast unless he had some type of serous brain condition. No way. 

[JaggedLilPill]

Terrible. I really wasn't focused on this episode too much so I missed a lot, but I remember hearing about it in the news. Didn't he google hot car deaths or something or am I thinking about someone else?

What a gross disgusting excuse for a human. And all of those multiple women (and girls too!) Ew. 

I know that this can happen to people. I remember the case with the woman who was a school principal or assistant principal and normally she didn't take her kid to daycare, but that day she did only she was too early so she decided to go to work for a bit. Her routine was totally off and as a result, she forgot about her kid and the child also died. IMO that was just a terrible accident. This was definitely murder. Like others have been saying, the ride was not that long and the video showed his son awake while they were at CFA. And then he reversed into a spot at his office. No way would he not have seen his son.

Just awful. 

Obviously we're not meant to understand it, but every time I watch a Dateline episode where it's the spouse that kills their ex or soon-to-be ex or kids, I scream "Why not just get a damn divorce?!" I'm sure a lot of it is due to greed and life insurance policies, not wanting to pay child support/possibly alimony, but isn't that better than spending the rest of your life in jail? 

If he wanted out of his marriage and didn't want to be a dad, he could have just walked out. At least in that regard, he'd still be a creep, but at least he wouldn't be a monster. 

[Court]

He also went to his car at lunch and placed some lightbulbs in the car. He texted his wife asking when she was picking Cooper up. Either of these things should have triggered him into realizing he didn't go to daycare.

Cooper's car seat had been forward facing. It was turned to rear facing in the week before this happened.

My friend works in the same place and that day he was parked in the same row but several spots down. He still wake up with nightmares about it because he wishes he had just walked that way and maybe he could have saved Cooper.

Also, he can love his child, grieve the death, and still be a murdering bastard.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Court

[Kelly]

I did watch the episode, and I had been following the story in the news.  I really wanted to believe that it was a horrible accident.  I agree that he couldnt have "forgetten" about the baby when he parked at work.  The fact that he returned to his car during the workday was incredibly disturbing to me.  That poor baby.  :(

[Madding crowd]

I was also surprised the mother seemed so calm and collected. I know people grieve differently but I have never known a mother who wasn't hysterical at learning her baby was dead. I know accidents can happen, but how could he forget a few minutes after talking to the toddler?

[walnutqueen]

It bothered me that the mother seemed to be more interested in comforting her husband than grieving for her child in the police station.

[Court]

5 minutes in and I'm cracking up at Leanna made Ross want to be a better man. 

OK he was cheating on her, sexting multiple woman, many who were underage. That's what a better man looks like? 

My husband is a saint in comparison. 

Also, while parents don't typically get charged for hot car deaths, they could even when it is an accident. It would just be a lesser charge.

I have faith but I'd be angry at my husband.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Court

[patty1h]

I guess I'm very cynical from years of watching these true crime shows and being from a law enforcement family, plus going on a "To Catch a Predator" clip binge on Youtube last week, but all of Ross Hunter's moves made him guilty in my eyes.

The mothers subdued reaction to her child's death bothered me too, at first, but then it was mentioned that she was religious and it made sense.  There was a case I saw on different crime show, where an early twenty-something son was told that his mother was murdered. The police went to find him and the police car dashcam was videotaping when they gave him the news and his response was similar to the wife's - no tears, no breakdown, just very blank faced.  When the police told him he they were taking him in for questioning, he said "I have classes this afternoon".   He was more concerned about missing his next class instead of his mom.  All this info to say that this son was religious too and I picked up that they had no sadness as they believed their loved one was in a better place/with God now.

Edited January 28, 2017 by patty1h

[Court]

I slogged my way through and my last thought was that was shoddy reporting.

They didn't mention the trial was granted a change of venue to South Georgia. Yes, the media coverage here made a fair trial difficult but that wasn't the case there. Jurors weren't familiar with the case.

[ridethemaverick]

I remember some article I read where an expert gave graphic details about what happens to babies left in cars. The expert basically argued that Ross would have been alerted to something being wrong when he opened his car at lunch because there would have been a strong smell. That's what sealed it for me. I was kind of surprised Dateline didn't talk about that angle at all.

[Court]

10 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

I remember some article I read where an expert gave graphic details about what happens to babies left in cars. The expert basically argued that Ross would have been alerted to something being wrong when he opened his car at lunch because there would have been a strong smell. That's what sealed it for me. I was kind of surprised Dateline didn't talk about that angle at all.

Or that witnesses and the EMT also smelled it. That Ross drove before realizing that Cooper was still in the car 

[bubbls]

The thing about Pam Hupp that fascinates me is all the law enforcement personnel who were fooled by her. These are people who vet others for a living. I've always assumed they're better than me at reading others, yet PH fooled them all when she acted soooooo guilty to me. There was something about her setting off my radar in the first interview they showed during Betsey's investigation. She's not even attractive. A lot of these women on these shows who sucker in others are at least physically attractive so it makes some weird sense but Pam? This is not that. 

[cooksdelight]

I think last night's show was a repeat but I had not seen it before. Nor had I ever heard of this couple, even though I live close to Knoxville. I firmly believe she was as guilty as he was, and I'm glad she's never going to get out of prison. Had to be so hard on her son, but glad he found his birth father. 

I know someone who I believe to be ripping off the VA but I'm not sure who to tell.

http://theknoxvillejournal.com/couple-lies-about-ptsd-fakes-military-records-to-recieve-benefits/

[saber5055]

Same here about not seeing last night's episode before, even though my tv listing said it was not new. I was so glad both got jail terms, although disappointed no death penalty for the wife. It was a good example of how, when people get away with something, they consider themselves above the law and continue to add more and more to their crime portfolio. Which, in the end, is what did them in. I can't for the life of me imagine why they took photos of Bob dead and/or dying. But hooray for people not knowing how the trash can works on computers. Was it said what happened to Sean, the son's, adoptive dad, the first husband? I must have dozed off during that part, if he had passed away or there was a divorce.

[ButterQueen]

On 1/28/2017 at 8:41 AM, Court said:

I haven't watched it yet because I was afraid of that and it would tick me off.

I live where it happened so I know the case pretty well. Several of my friends went to church with him. I know the route from CFA to Home Depot. It's not a long drive. During the trial, most of all the legal experts thought he wouldn't be found guilty. Partly because they thought the jury would feel he "suffered enough already".

He's guilty. The defense twisted themselves in circles trying to prove he isn't. 

I know that there have been cases where people genuinely forget when their routine is altered.This is not one of those cases.

Agree!  And I truly believe his wife was in on it.  When the police officer tells her that her baby is dead, she calmly asks where her husband is.  No cries of how, where, etc.  She also stupidly asked Ross "if he said too much".  I detest her just as much.

[Madding crowd]

Yes, no matter how religious you are you would be surprised and shocked. You would also wonder what happened. Super religious people may be more accepting eventually but no caring mother on earth would just act like nothing happened. I thnk the mother was in on it too. 

[biakbiak]

I actually missed this episode but people react in all sorts of ways, particularly in shock. Immediately compartmentalizing and handling the task at hand isn't unusual. 

[Court]

Just now, biakbiak said:

I actually missed this episode but people react in all sorts of ways, particularly in shock. Immediately compartmentalizing and handling the task at hand isn't unusual. 

While I actually agree with this, I still believe Ross Harris is guilty. I hope he loses all his appeals and rots in jail.

[biakbiak]

Just now, Court said:

While I actually agree with this, I still believe Ross Harris is guilty. I hope he loses all his appeals and rots in jail.

I was referring to the wife's reaction.

[Madding crowd]

I don't believe the mother of a baby would have zero reaction. The grief process is different overall but I can't believe a loving mother could compartmentalize hearing her baby was dead.

[cooksdelight]

She sat there like she already knew. And wondering if her husband had said too much. I was really surprised that she was never arrested, back when it happened.

[ari333]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 7:53 AM, cooksdelight said:

She sat there like she already knew. And wondering if her husband had said too much. I was really surprised that she was never arrested, back when it happened.

THIS

[Christina]

This is going to be long. I have followed the Justin Ross Harris case from almost day one, watched all the hearings that were streamed, read most of the briefs, and watched every minute of trial. There were about 100 of us chatting about the trial as it was happening, and most of us agreed that he was guilty of intentionally leaving Cooper in the car. The next largest group, which was still pretty small, maybe a dozen people or so, thought he probably did it intentionally but the State didn't prove it. There were only a couple of people who thought all the evidence pointed to accident. It didn't sound like the jury debated that much, they agreed from jump that it was intentional.

The two defense attorneys did a lot of excellent pre-trial work for JRH. They got the judge to rule that the prosecutors could not bring up Cooper's life insurance, because the small $2k plan was a rider on the wife's (I think) policy from work, and the larger $25k policy was added on to the parents life insurance and there was no evidence to support that the death was for financial reasons. The Harris' didn't have a lot of money and were stretched pretty thin, but $27k wouldn't have made any huge difference to their lives. JRH worked for Home Depot at the corporate offices and they paid for Cooper's funeral.

They also got the judge to not allow any evidence of the child porn he collected prior to that day. They wanted it to be a separate trial all together, but it went to the prosecution's case so they were allowed to call the girls he chatted with on that day, but the other dozen or so were not allowed to be presented at trial. There was supposedly a psychologist who was to be called by the defense to discuss his sex addiction and how that could have caused him to forget his son so quickly after getting in the car, because he was already texting one of the women while at the restaurant, but none was called. We discussed whether the doctor wasn't going to say what the defense wanted, so they only went with the memory expert, who didn't hold up that well. Driving his son to daycare and sometimes stopping at Chik-fil-a was a routine occurrence for him.

At trial, the defense was effective in pointing out the issues created by the law enforcement. There is a pretty good chance at appeal on one of the issues. JRH pulled into a busy parking lot, a few miles from his work, after he said he looked over his shoulder to change lanes and saw him. He pulled him out and laid him on the hot asphalt while attempting to do CPR. One of the men working nearby came over and took over because he said he didn't know what JRH was doing, but it wasn't CPR. He broke down on the stand and it was heart breaking. JRH didn't call 911, two other witnesses did. A LEO was pulling into the parking lot for patrol purposes and stopped suddenly when he saw what was happening, and the LEO behind him rear-ended him. JRH was trying to call the daycare to tell Leanna, his wife, Cooper wasn't there. One of the LEOs yelled at him to get off the phone and he told her to "F off" because he was trying to call his wife, and she handcuffed him and put him in the care for being belligerent, then told Stoddard, the detective assigned, that he was acting too calm and patient. At that point, Stoddard decided he was guilty and set out to prove it. 

The Prosecutor insisted that JRH tried to "chat up" the cop who was driving him to the precinct for questioning, but according to the video, he asked her where they were going and how long she had been a cop. She said she couldn't talk to him, told him where they were going, and he didn't say anything else. Then, the appeal issue here, JRH made a comment about seeing a video by a veterinarian where he was sitting in a car and discussing how hot he was getting and showed a thermometer. He then rolled down the window and showed that it didn't help any. The video was about 7 minutes long and the computer forensics showed that he clicked a link from Reddit and watched the video, didn't search for it, and didn't watch it more than once. Stoddard called another officer to have him type a search warrant for JRH's phone and laptop, and told that cop to put in the warrant that he admitted to searching for how long it would take a child to die in the car. That never happened. JRH did immediately start talking in the interview/interrogation room about becoming an advocate to warn others to not make that mistake, and became irate when he was told that he was being arrested for child neglect, because he thought they would believe it was an accident.

After receiving the warrant, they found the photo of a naked girl who said she was 15. They typed up a new search warrant for all the electronics, including the phone and laptop in the first warrant to look for additional photos. If the idiot had deleted that crap before being arrested, he may have gotten away with it. Because the second warrant was valid, the photos and texts of that day came into the trial, and it included the evidence that looked like it was intentional.

Not only was Chik-fil-a two minutes from his work, he sent a text before he got out of the car that said something about loving his son but needing a break. It was literally the minute he was caught on surveillance getting out of his car. He sent the text, grabbed his bag, and walked into work. He claimed he used the mirrors to back up instead of looking over his shoulder, and had placed the car seat that was too small rear-facing in his car, because Leanna needed the one that is more comfortable when she was going to another state, later that week.  At lunch, he didn't leave like he usually did, so a co-worker invited him to Publix supermarket to eat. He said he would go if he could ride with them. One of the others needed something from Home Depot so they drove over and he purchased light bulbs. The car dropped him off near, but not right in front of, his car, and he opened the door and dropped the lightbulbs on the front seat, without looking around. He then started to walk off and a women parked right next to him headed up to her car (that woman was never found; the parking lot was for several businesses). He stops, looks like he is looking at his phone, and waits for the car to pull away before he starts walking again. The jury asked to see this video again. Apparently, it is known in Atlanta to not leave lightbulbs in a closed car because they would explode from the heat. It would have made more sense to take them in to his office, and the prosecution said he wanted to see if Cooper was making noise and the defense said taking them inside would have made more sense, so obviously that was not what he was doing. The medical examiner testified that it was possible he was still alive at that time, based on the heat and how his body would have shut down, but couldn't say for sure. He also didn't tell Stoddard about this trip for lunch or him returning to his car until after he threw the receipt for lunch away and the LEOs pulled it out of the trash.

The nail in the coffin for JRH though, was that his 18-year-old girlfriend called it quits the day before. He kept talking about leaving Leanna but she decided he was messing with her and it was too much for her to handle. She also admitted to having medical issues on the stand, and it seemed to be depression type issues. The prosecution's theory was that if he left Leanna, she would keep Cooper and he would have to pay child support, but if Cooper died, Leanna and him would separate and he could go on with his life. Dateline didn't go there on the show, which is probably good because that young lady doesn't need to blame herself. She did withhold texts and emails from JRH from the police, denied their relationship was sexual, and denied ever sending him photos. She did admit that he told her he loved her and she thought they were planning a life together. The next morning, Cooper was left in the car. 

Stoddard spent a lot of time trying to prove Leanna was involved, but never found anything. No texts, no emails, no search history on her computer,nothing at all. She had caught him sexting a woman in another state and he admitted that he was watching an obsessive amount of porn, but she had no idea that he was sexting teenagers, meeting prostitutes, slept with a man, slept with at least one 16-year-old, or sent the text that he needed a break from his son before closing him in the car until the first hearing regarding the initial subpoena based on lies and exaggerations. She then had little contact with him on the advice of her attorney, because Stoddard was still trying to pin something on her. She's odd. She seems to truly believe it was an accident, because she purposely avoided the facts when they were coming out. She has since divorced him and moved to another state to be closer to her boyfriend. She was trying to comfort him in the jail because she said he was so upset and she thought it was an accident. She also testified that she asked where her son had been taken and Stoddard wouldn't tell her, and he testified that she never asked about him. Many people believe she knew about it. I don't think she did, because I think Stoddard would have found something. He left no stone unturned in this case, and at minimum, exaggerated evidence to get a search warrant and admitted on the stand the information in the search warrant was not correct and he knew it and didn't correct it. I think she knows it was intentional now, but just doesn't want to admit it to herself.

It looks like the issue regarding the first search warrant will be heard on appeal. There is also an argument about the laws for child pornography and contributing to the delinquency of a minor for the sexting of the girls under age 18 may be looked at, because he could legally, and did, have actual sex with the girls at 16, but the photographs were a criminal offense. There are several issues being appealed, but those two look like they will be heard. I don't believe the appellate court has weighed in yet on what they are going to hear or not hear. He is where he belongs. I think the evidence was there to prove it was intentional, and there wasn't anything that proved it was an accident.

[saber5055]

The show last night about Nick, the black ex boyfriend, accused and acquitted of murdering the 12-year-old boy, was new to me. Maybe all the facts weren't told, but I want to know how it HAD to be an adult who jumped out of the second-story window and not a kid. Kids sneak out of second-story windows all the time at night to go ... wherever. So why couldn't the murderer be a school bully, one of the kids making life hard for the son because his mom was dating a black guy? Kids DO kill other kids. And OF COURSE the porch roof was damaged when the ADULT MAN jumped onto it. Really? It was an old house, the roof wasn't damaged before the murder? And the murderer had to have hurt his leg ... why? So much stupidity in the investigation. It all focused on one guy while the real murderer is still out there somewhere. (And no DNA on the boy's body, like his neck where he was choked?)

[Ohmo]

Applause for Christina.  Thanks for all of that information.  I wrestle with this one.  Not because I think Justin is a good guy.  I don't.  Circumstantially, I can make all of the leaps that say it's likely (or at least plausible) that he did do it intentionally.  However, simultaneous to that, I also think it's possible for someone to believe that they actually took a kid to daycare and that's where the kid is.

I don't have kids, but my mom obviously has had them and my sister has a child.  The stuff that Andrea Canning said about instantly forgetting something rang true to me.  My sister has also talked about thinking you are going to do a task in terms of childcare and then somehow thinking you've already done that task when you actually haven't.  You just think you have already done it.  I also wondered about seeing the car seat vs. seeing the kid in the car seat.  Would Cooper have been sitting high enough for Justin to have seen him?

Also, if Justin was going to kill Cooper, why take him into CFA at all?  What is the purpose of a 2 year-old being seen on camera?  If Justin wanted Cooper dead, why not just drive to HD and leave him?  It's not like CFA expected the two of them to show up every day.  The CFA trip points to an accident to me more than murder.  If it was murder, wouldn't it be easier to just say, I forgot he was in the car or I thought I had taken him to daycare and skip CFA altogether?

But then, his behavior at lunch is suspicious.  Not so much for Justin, but like the show mentioned, what does this case mean for someone who truly does do this accidentally?  Are prosecutors going to be as willing to entertain that as a possibility now?

Edited February 5, 2017 by Ohmo

[Madding crowd]

I think he took him to CFA to "show" himself as a loving dad with a close relationship with his son. He expected The employees to remember him laughing and talking with his son. Makes it more chilling to me.

The story last night about the murdered boy Garrett just broke my heart. I don't think the police did a good job here but I think they assumed an adult because Garrett was a big kid and it would take a strong person to overpower and choke him. I can't make up my mind if Nick did it or not. I think it is suspicious that he was just sitting in his car at the school when Garrett was leaving for home. Looking at the video of Garrett skating home and knowing it was his last day on earth was so sad. I really felt bad for the mom.

[Ohmo]

33 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I think he took him to CFA to "show" himself as a loving dad with a close relationship with his son. He expected The employees to remember him laughing and talking with his son. Makes it more chilling to me.

True. and, like I said, I can get to that it's very likely that he did do it.  However, I think the prosecution did a better job of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Justin is a creep, a sleaze, and should likely never have any more kids.  But, while the possibility of malicious intent is there, the possibility of negligence or accident is still there for me too.  The detectives talked about taking everything in totality, and while murder does come on the table, negligence or accidental behavior never came completely off the table for me.  I can convict Justin of being an abysmal person and a negligent parent, but I'm not sure of a murderous parent, not beyond a reasonable doubt to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

[Christina]

11 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I think he took him to CFA to "show" himself as a loving dad with a close relationship with his son. He expected The employees to remember him laughing and talking with his son. Makes it more chilling to me.

That's what the CFA workers testified. He was showing him off and introducing him to everyone while they were busy. 

The thing about him forgetting though, had a lot of holes in it in this case. There was another man who left his kids in the car seat while he was in a strip club. He didn't even remember he had them with him because he had been drinking and smoking pot. He was not charged like JRH was, he was charged under an involuntary manslaughter or a neglect resulting in death charge. I think there was ultimately a plea in that case. I'm not from Atlanta but it kept being brought up in chat so I read the article. They went after JRH hard, in part because of the sex and sexting with minors. Both he and Leanna were odd, and that made the LEOs even more suspicious. They are just odd people.

In this case, he took Cooper out to the car while he was wide awake, which we saw on video. He pulled out of the parking lot, drove one mile and where he should have turned left to go to daycare, he drove right to go to work (or visa versa). Both Leanna and JRH testified that Cooper fell asleep quickly in the car (Leanna at trial and JRH in the police interview; he didn't testify at trial). JRH said he backed in to his parking spot using his mirrors, not looking over his shoulder, and the car seat was right at his head. Cooper was too big for that seat, and he purposely put that one in his car. The other seat was front facing and Cooper fit in it better. His reasoning was because Leanna was going to be driving him out of state later that week and she would need the better carseat. The daycare testified that sometimes parents would leave a car seat there to exchange, but in this case the Harris' didn't. The plan for that day was for JRH to take him to daycare and Leanna to pick him up, so if we are looking at it favorable to JRH, I can see why they wouldn't exchange it. They should have had two car seats that were front facing though, because he had outgrown the one he was in in JRH's car, by height and weight.

The testimony was different, but he was either three inches too tall and his head was above the seat, or he was asleep and his head tucked down. All the reinactments showed that he would have been able to see Cooper if he looked over his shoulder. The jurors got to see the car which resulted in an immediate demand from the defense for a mistrial, because he said that the jurors were looking down into the car in a way that JRH never did on video, and the judge ruled that the jurors were all different heights and the car was evidence that they could see. It was really obvious when they returned from the car viewing that the defense attorneys knew it didn't go well for JRH. The car seat fit flush with the front seats. He couldn't not see it. He had one of those small SUVs. Hopefully these links will work, but here is one photo of the carseat.  Here is the car from the outside at the courthouse. This is from the animation showing how close the car seat is to the front seats, and this one is another angle. Since I'm at it, this is a screencap of the text he sent as he was closing his son in the car, and here is a screen cap of the slide regarding memory. 

He was in the parking lot at work two minutes after leaving CFA, typed a text to a woman about loving his son but needing a break, linked above, then left with his laptop. The memory expert hired by the defense explained how people can forget their children, especially when they are doing something different than normal, and also explained how things would bring the memory back. In JRH's case, he received an email from the daycare that said something about the plans for that day, but didn't specifically mention Cooper, there were texts between Leanna and him about what time she was going to pick him up, when it was the same time as always so there was no reason to send that text, and his morning routine was a normal occurrence on most days. There were also texts to the women and girls he was sexting where he mentioned his son. 

His behavior continued to not add up. His coworkers testified that he always went to lunch except for that day, and he would only go with if they drove. He paused outside of his car, staring at his phone, until the woman who had parked next to him drove off. He said he saw Cooper when he turned to look over his shoulder to change lanes, but said he didn't smell anything. The paramedic who arrived on scene to pronounce Cooper deceased said there was a smell of urine but not of decomp. The good samaritan who tried to do CPR also said the smell of urine and sweat was very strong. 

Then there was the interview at the jail with Det. Stoddard, where he couldn't quit talking. He told them he used to work for a police department, and it turned out he worked as a dispatcher. He kept using police jargon, and when told that he was going to be charged with child neglect, he became irate, demanded an attorney, and then instead of shutting up, he argued with them about whether or not there was criminal intent. Det. Stoddard told him that his son was in his custody and control and died, that was child neglect, and he wasn't going anywhere. The first time he cried a tear was when Leanna showed up. He was telling Det. Stoddard how he was going to become an advocate and speak out about leaving your kids in the car. He always acted like he thought he was going to walk out of that police station with no charges. His friends and family testified that he was quite arrogant, but not violent, and no one thought he did it on purpose.

What did him in was the sexting to other women throughout the day, some who turned out to be under 18. That resulted in the warrant that allowed the LEOs to read through all his texts, and they found out his 18-year-old girlfriend dumped him the night before because he wouldn't leave Leanna. She lied on the stand for him, too. This is a case where the law enforcement officers did not act well, either. The lying on the first warrant, the decision that was guilty immediately because they didn't think he was acting right, saying that he was too calm but putting him in handcuffs for being aggressive, the extreme harassment of Leanna when they didn't have anything to allow them to charge her, but continued to withhold her photos so she couldn't even have one at the funeral, and frankly, I think Det. Stoddard is going to end up on one of these shows as an officer that manipulates facts to his advantage, and I think he did it in this case.

Justin Ross Harris didn't delete his sexting because he didn't think they were ever going to look at his phone. He thought he had a full proof plan and they would believe it was an accident because it happens there a few times a year. But, he was cocky and couldn't shut up, thereby assuring his arrest. 

Many people who watched the trial thought the State didn't prove he intentionally left Cooper in the car, even though they thought he probably did. There were only a couple who thought it was obvious that it was an accident. Those same people didn't give any weight to his girlfriend breaking up with him, him texting about Cooper as he was leaving the car, because even if Cooper had fallen asleep, texting about him would remind him that he didn't drop him off two minutes ago according to the defense memory expert, or any of his behavior that his co workers said was out of the ordinary like not going to lunch. I think the evidence was overwhelming that proved intention, and the jury seemed to agree since they didn't have any issues with that factor, but the people who didn't think the State proved it had watched everything, too. The appellate briefs should be interesting in this case.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Christina
Fixed bad link

[bubbls]

My mom and I wondered how he was convicted on so little. We were delighted with the dog kidnapping lol. It's a good thing that prosecutor was a cutie with a name like Ole Olsen! 

[bubbls]

I guess I'm the only one who wasn't sure he deserved prison. The victim was continually cutting his locks and trespassing. i missed the class action suit info though. So the neighbors could legally cross his land?

 

Having dealt with arrogant, trespassing ATV-riding bastards I have no tolerance for people like that. 

[Christina]

It's been so long since I've seen this trial that I can't guarantee that this is correct, but I believe that they were NOT trespassing. There was an easement that allowed them use of the trails, and he decided to ignore that and blocked the paths.

I don't have much sympathy for trespassers, especially when they know they are trespassing. In this case, I think that they were allowed to be where they were and he went too far.

[walnutqueen]

No matter what, trespassing (if there wasn't an easement) and cutting locks is not a capital offense, and the owner had no right to assume the role of judge, jury and executioner.   His "stand your groud" self defense argument didn't hold water in court, and he's lucky not to be in prison for life.

[bubbls]

I agree, but there's also the issue of provocation. On more than one occasion my neighbors and I seriously discussed stringing wire to decapitate the ATVers that were flouting the law in our situation. We obviously made the right choice otherwise we'd be a Dateline episode, but I empathize greatly with others being provoked to fatal violence. I wonder if the victim still thought getting his way was worth it as he lay dying. 

This is all assuming there there was no legal easement. I'm too lazy to research it. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by bubbls

[bubbls]

We watched Fatal Attraction last night. Dr. Ana Maria Gonzalez-Angulo of MD Anderson hospital in Texas convicted of attempting to kill her boyfriend with antifreeze in his coffee. My mom and I were astounded when she was convicted. I used to think I'd be good on a jury, but if handed a case like this I'd be hung. It was my understanding the coffee cups were never tested. Anyone else see this one? Did we miss something??

[Ina123]

The only people with legal easement were the ones who joined the lawsuit. The victim did not have the money to join the lawsuit. He had no legal easement.