S03.E03: Part Three - Seventeen Seconds

[Egg McMuffin]

I really hate the “secret adult son” plot. That’s what they do in soap operas, where characters do terrible things to each other yet still stay together. It’s part of the genre. In reality, if someone hid your child from you, or slept with your husband, or faked paternity results, you’d never have anything to do with them again. That’s for shows like “Days of Our Lives” because it’s an accepted part of the genre.

I wonder why this show doesn’t take place aboard the Enterprise, since nostalgia is such a big part of this season. I didn’t watch the previous two season, so have they mentioned the Enterprise at all?

[marinw]

So Jack is only in his early twenties then? Ok. I have to assume he never went to medical school (Unless it was at the British Boarding School) and picked up his knowledge from working with Mom.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Why can’t they mimic him?  They don’t need a DNA sample to look like a person, and we’ve seen them imitate inorganic objects before.  All they need is a picture and some time to study his mannerisms.

They cannot mimic gigaflops of memory to recall from, or superhuman android strength, etc... 

[iMonrey]

Everything to do with Jack makes very little sense because the whole premise is too contrived to explain in a satisfactory manner. And I agree that they should have cast someone younger if he's supposed to be 20. Ed Speleers is still boyish looking and could pass for maybe late 20s but not 20. I suspect someone with the show was just a fan of his and wanted him for the role regardless.

Otherwise I like what they're doing this season and I thought all the action on the Titan was pretty cool.

Speculation from one of my podcasts - the "fight" between Riker and Picard is just subterfuge because they know there's a saboteur on board so they're putting on a little show for them. We don't know yet what they're really up to. 

I can't get over how great Worf looks with grey hair. 

Quote

Why is Titan Sickbay understaffed? EMH!!!!???? Crusher had one 20 years ago FFS...

I wonder if they discontinued the EMHs specifically because of the one from Voyager becoming sentient. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by iMonrey

[Chit Chat]

19 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Worf is awesome. "Beheadings are on Wednesdays." The cackle I let out... 

He was the best part of this episode!  I loved how he was telling Raffi who he is, who he killed, and basically what a badass he is/was, then calmly asks her if she wants some chamomile tea!  

6 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

But I’m over here banging my head against a wall because I just can’t get past the fact that if she really, genuinely and rationally thought that Jack was in danger just by virtue of having the last name “Picard,” why she didn’t explain it all to Jean-Luc when she was pregnant and ask for his buy-in about not publicly acknowledging his kid.  I can’t think of anything in their interactions in the original show that would lead me to believe they couldn’t have worked it out.

I don't like this particular storyline.  Beverly robbed Picard of the chance to be a father.  I don't think he would've turned his back on his son or Beverly.  Even though she thought he couldn't make that kind of commitment, she should've told him and let him make that decision.  I hate that the writers have now made me think of Beverly in such a negative way. Boo to you, show!  

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

It seems like most reviewers that I’ve seen around the Internet are of the view that yeah, Beverly’s reasons were a little sus, but at least understandable as to why she would take the position she did.  But I’m over here banging my head against a wall because I just can’t get past the fact that if she really, genuinely and rationally thought that Jack was in danger just by virtue of having the last name “Picard,” why she didn’t explain it all to Jean-Luc when she was pregnant and ask for his buy-in about not publicly acknowledging his kid.  I can’t think of anything in their interactions in the original show that would lead me to believe they couldn’t have worked it out.  They were always so supportive of one another.

I’m right there with you. Keeping Jack secret was always going to be a tough sell and they went with an explanation that makes zero sense given what happen on Next Gen. We watched her put Wesley’s life in Picard’s hands time and time again but somehow he’s too dangerous at seventy something years old and nearing retirement. Jack would have still been a pretty young child when Picard retired. Most of the time she kept him hidden Picard was mothballed and just hanging around his chateau. 

[ajsnaves]

So what’s the time line here? Beverly says she got pregnant just before she left the Enterprise. Which time? 20 years ago? He looks too old for that. 40 years ago? That means she dropped him in London and went back to the Enterprise for 15 plus years? I really don’t think I could accept that change of character. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

This!!! Beverly says that she gave Jack the opportunity to contact Picard; how did she do that? Did she even tell Jack that she never told Picard about him?  Jack hollers at Picard, "I have no Father!" when he was asked who his father was. Why would he be angry if he knew that Picard didn't even know he existed?  Sloppy retcon and sloppy writing!

There are lots of potential sources for Jack's anger in that scene, even if few of them could be said to be JLP's fault: frustration over having been denied a chance to grow up with a father, displaced stress over the situation he and his mother find themselves in, frustration that JLP even felt the need to ask that question in general or at that specific time, irritation at experiencing JLP in the flesh and him not measuring up to expectations. I think it is fair that anger does not have a rational basis.  

[Tachi Rocinante]

21 hours ago, paigow said:

Why is Titan Sickbay understaffed? EMH!!!!???? Crusher had one 20 years ago FFS...

Didn't they sorta kinda borrow it?

The Van Halen ship made another cameo!

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, ajsnaves said:

So what’s the time line here? Beverly says she got pregnant just before she left the Enterprise. Which time? 20 years ago? He looks too old for that. 40 years ago? That means she dropped him in London and went back to the Enterprise for 15 plus years? I really don’t think I could accept that change of character. 

I think the only thing that makes sense is she is talking about when she left the Enterprise at some point post-Nemesis. We just have to suspend disbelief and think that Jack is only 20 even though he is clearly played by someone 10+ years older.

In addition to what she said in this episode (that she thought about telling JLP just after the birth, but then JLP's life was threatened by Remans and Romulans -- sorry spacing on the precise details), it isn't feasible that this happened during the gap between S1 and S3 when she was back at Starfleet medical. In addition, the S7 episode Attached made it clear that at that point neither had acted on their feelings for each other, so it would be a huge retcon to say that they'd slept together and Bev went off and had a secret son.

13 hours ago, Dani said:

I’m right there with you. Keeping Jack secret was always going to be a tough sell and they went with an explanation that makes zero sense given what happen on Next Gen. We watched her put Wesley’s life in Picard’s hands time and time again but somehow he’s too dangerous at seventy something years old and nearing retirement. Jack would have still been a pretty young child when Picard retired. Most of the time she kept him hidden Picard was mothballed and just hanging around his chateau. 

Wesley lived with risks -- getting blown up with the rest of the Enterprise, stepping on the wrong lawn, falling in love with shapeshifter royalty and dealing with her bodyguard -- but no one targeted him because he was the son of Bev and Jack Crusher Sr. People conceivably would target Jack Jr. because he is the son of JLP and JLP has many enemies. We know from TNG one of Picard's enemies did an elaborate plot to make Picard think he had an illegitimate son and made him suffer just to torment Picard. It's not crazy to think that Picard's many enemies would do way worse to an actual son Picard had. 

16 hours ago, paigow said:

They cannot mimic gigaflops of memory to recall from, or superhuman android strength, etc... 

They don't need to duplicate the actual abilities of a synth, just like they don't have to duplicate the actual brain matter of a normal solid.

All they have to do is appear close enough to the actual entity and have enough knowledge to fake being them for a while. There is nothing stopping a competent Changeling from looking like Data or another android. Presumably, they could even duplicate some of the physical structure of such an android if they wanted to, and thus approximate some level of the strength one had.

[marinw]

16 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think the only thing that makes sense is she is talking about when she left the Enterprise at some point post-Nemesis. We just have to suspend disbelief and think that Jack is only 20 even though he is clearly played by someone 10+ years older.

Maybe Jack did some time travelling and spent 10 years somewhere in the past before returning to his own era. Or something.

[MissLucas]

Maybe his half-brother took him on a time-travelling trip?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Wesley lived with risks -- getting blown up with the rest of the Enterprise, stepping on the wrong lawn, falling in love with shapeshifter royalty and dealing with her bodyguard -- but no one targeted him because he was the son of Bev and Jack Crusher Sr. People conceivably would target Jack Jr. because he is the son of JLP and JLP has many enemies. We know from TNG one of Picard's enemies did an elaborate plot to make Picard think he had an illegitimate son and made him suffer just to torment Picard. It's not crazy to think that Picard's many enemies would do way worse to an actual son Picard had. 

It’s not crazy to think that they would attempt it but I just don’t buy that the Beverly who left her teenage son alone on the Enterprise for a year would make such an extreme choice. I might buy it she had actually worked to keep Jack removed from danger. But she put him in dangerous situations and raised a wanted man while Jean-Luc spent most of those years moping around his chateaux. 

If they wanted to give Jean-Luc a long lost son making Vash the mother would have worked a lot better with very little changes to the plot. 

[starri]

I don’t know if incompletely buy the logic, but when she became a mother to Jack, she’d also lost Wesley by that point. Granted, he was off on higher planes of existence and all, but it wasn’t like he was just off backpacking around the Beta Quadrant. 

[cambridgeguy]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

They cannot mimic gigaflops of memory to recall from, or superhuman android strength, etc... 

Sure, if pressed to show off that processing power a changeling imitating Lore wouldn't be able to do it, just like a changeling imitating Riker wouldn't necessarily be able to play trombone, and one imitating Troi couldn't replicate her empathic abilities.  They can still imitate Lore's physical look and voice, then try to bluff their way through everything else. 

[Chyromaniac]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Speculation from one of my podcasts - the "fight" between Riker and Picard is just subterfuge because they know there's a saboteur on board so they're putting on a little show for them. We don't know yet what they're really up to.

I’ve seen this on the fan Discord for Mission Log podcast- if you’re from there too, then hi!  I think it’s certainly a possibility that this is a ploy by Riker & Picard - this whole nebula situation is giving off big TWoK vibes, and that movie famously had Kirk & Spock using code to conceal their intentions.

As for the whole Ed Speleers thing- yes, he’s much older than the character.  But, let’s remember what Sir Patrick’s actual son looked like at a similar age.  I think with that in mind, Ed is certainly passable as Picard’s 20 year old son.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

It’s not crazy to think that they would attempt it but I just don’t buy that the Beverly who left her teenage son alone on the Enterprise for a year would make such an extreme choice. I might buy it she had actually worked to keep Jack removed from danger. But she put him in dangerous situations and raised a wanted man while Jean-Luc spent most of those years moping around his chateaux. 

If they wanted to give Jean-Luc a long lost son making Vash the mother would have worked a lot better with very little changes to the plot. 

It would have been way better for it to have been a son of Vash and Picard, good call.

We don't have the full backstory on Jack Jr., but it seems to me that he grew up safe in London and only as a older teenager started engaging in the sort of con artistry and such that might bring danger to him. Which at that point, he's an adult making his decisions and Bev has no real options. If Jack Jr. wants to smuggle meds or piss off rando aliens of the week, the best she can do is have his back while he does so. Also, the hijinks he is getting to on his own are still less serious (presumably) than the ones that the various enemies of JLP over the decades might impose on him.

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It would have been way better for it to have been a son of Vash and Picard, good call.

We don't have the full backstory on Jack Jr., but it seems to me that he grew up safe in London and only as a older teenager started engaging in the sort of con artistry and such that might bring danger to him. Which at that point, he's an adult making his decisions and Bev has no real options. If Jack Jr. wants to smuggle meds or piss off rando aliens of the week, the best she can do is have his back while he does so. Also, the hijinks he is getting to on his own are still less serious (presumably) than the ones that the various enemies of JLP over the decades might impose on him.

They made him Beverley's son, because Beverley. . A lot of Picard is about his facing his own mortality and reassessing his relationships and responses to his parents, so having a son turn up makes a certain kind of sense. Beverley's response doesn't, though. As people have mentioned Wesley was for all intents and purposes a perfect target (until he became a superbeing) and a starship full of people could have guessed Jack was Picard's son--probably why she kept her distance from everyone. But this is also weirdly disrespectful to Picard and to Jack.

If Jack is only 20 and grew up in safety on earth, how did he learn this stuff? And if, as seems likely, they will outfit a ship with the next generation, won't he still have to go to med school?

[Chicago Redshirt]

53 minutes ago, Affogato said:

They made him Beverley's son, because Beverley. . A lot of Picard is about his facing his own mortality and reassessing his relationships and responses to his parents, so having a son turn up makes a certain kind of sense. Beverley's response doesn't, though. As people have mentioned Wesley was for all intents and purposes a perfect target (until he became a superbeing) and a starship full of people could have guessed Jack was Picard's son--probably why she kept her distance from everyone. But this is also weirdly disrespectful to Picard and to Jack.

If Jack is only 20 and grew up in safety on earth, how did he learn this stuff? And if, as seems likely, they will outfit a ship with the next generation, won't he still have to go to med school?

In a universe where Vulcans learn advanced mathematics at 2, and human children are supposed to have mastered all sorts of disciplines in their teens to apply to Starfleet Academy, where holodecks and computer programs are freely available, etc., it's totally plausible to me that anyone who wanted to could master pretty much any available discipline. 

I hadn't contemplated the notion of a literal ship with the literal next generation of Next Generation crew members.

But they hypothetically could do one if they really really wanted:

Jack Crusher (and/or Wesley Crusher)

Kestra Troi-Riker (or Thomas Riker if we wanted to resolve his fate and Frakes wanted to continue to draw a paycheck)

Soji and/or Kore Soong

Sela (now that the Romulans are allies-adjacent) or an offspring of Sela's

Alexander Rozhenko

Sidney "Crash" LaForge

Molly or Kirayoshi O'Brien

Not everyone would have to fit into the same roles as their parents. Jack could be any number of things, not just the putative ship's doctor.

 

 

[tennisgurl]

Its really too bad we're stuck with this terrible Jack Crusher plot because the rest of the episode was pretty good. A bit over the top with the dramatics at times, but the nebula fight was exciting, Worf was awesome, and I'm thrilled that the Changlings are back. I'm biased because DS9 is my favorite Trek and I have been disappointed by how much its been ignored by modern Trek (more than any show besides Enterprise) so I'm happy to see it here. In general I have thought that this was a good start to the season, way better than last seasons hot mess, but...we keep coming back to this stupid long lost kid thing, dragging the show down. 

They had to know that there was no way they could pull this without making Beverly look awful, I hate that they needed to assassinate her character all for this stupid plot twist, its all so lame. If this had to happen, I wish that they had found a more plausible reason for Beverly to not tell her long time captain and close friend with apparent benefits that they had a son. Both of her reasons, that being Picard's son was put him into danger and that Picard never wanted kids, are absolutely stupid. Picard had issues with the idea of being a father and was awkward with kids, but we saw with his interactions with his nephew and with young Elnor that he could be plenty paternal, and if the kid was in some super safe place on Earth he would probably be perfectly safe. We even know that Picard would be open to retiring and leaving the line of fire, he chilled out at his winery for years with his dog and his Romulan friends, and that was just because he was pissed and hurt about politics, he would have probably been open to stepping back to raise a son. I also guess she was fine with Wesley flying around with Picard for years, but not Jack? The biggest issue though, as Picard rightfully pointed out, she took his choice away from him as to whether or not he would be a father to this kid, and that's not fair to him or to Jack. I have no idea why Jack is so pissy with Picard and doesn't want to talk to him, none of this is Picards fault. If anything, he should be annoyed at his mom. 

Speaking of Wesley, has he not been in touch with his mom? He's not dead, he's flying around space and time, you would think he could make time to check in on his mom and kid brother. And for as much as Beverly says that she did all of this to keep him safe, she's pretty fine with apparently sending him to school in London as a kid (was she there too?) and flying around space with him doing dangerous illegal medical missions in war zones. He's an adult now sure, but if Beverly did all of this to keep her son away from danger, she didn't do a great job. 

Worf and Raffi are a fun duo, its so great to see him again. You can tell that Michael Dorn is having a great time getting back in the action and I am glad that the story with Raffi is picking up. I like Raffi, but I was disappointed that she was the only new character the show decided to bring back as she was my least favorite, but I already like Worf and her working together.

"Beheadings are on Wednesdays." 

Edited March 3, 2023 by tennisgurl

[iMonrey]

I also don't get why the doctor in sick bay brushed off Beverly by saying it would take too long to explain medical advances or whatever for the last 20 years. Uh, Beverly wasn't in suspended animation for the last 20 years. Just because she wasn't working for Starfleet anymore doesn't mean she wasn't keeping up with the latest advances in medicine and new techniques, etc. That seemed like a dumb assumption on that doctor's part, so maybe really just dumb writing.

Quote

And for as much as Beverly says that she did all of this to keep him safe, she's pretty fine with apparently sending him to school in London as a kid (was she there too?) and flying around space with him doing dangerous illegal medical missions in war zones.

If we assume Beverly settled in London as soon as she realized she was pregnant, and raised Jack there for many years, then at least his accent does make sense. The way you learn to speak while you are growing up generally does not change unless you work at it and there wouldn't have been any particular reason for him to.

Edited March 3, 2023 by iMonrey

[Guest]

3 hours ago, starri said:

I don’t know if incompletely buy the logic, but when she became a mother to Jack, she’d also lost Wesley by that point. Granted, he was off on higher planes of existence and all, but it wasn’t like he was just off backpacking around the Beta Quadrant. 

I mostly agree. I can (sort of) understand the reasoning behind her not wanted Jean-Luc in their life or not wanting it to be known who is father was but not her conclusion that he shouldn’t know the truth. If she had told him and told him no one could know, I don’t think he would have forced himself into their lives particularly given the relationship that they had. 

They easily could have had nearly the same impact and story by having Jean-Luc know the truth and agreeing to stay away. It would have better explaining Jack’s anger at Jean-Luc and still created tension between Beverly and Jean-Luc. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I also don't get why the doctor in sick bay brushed off Beverly by saying it would take too long to explain medical advances or whatever for the last 20 years. Uh, Beverly wasn't in suspended animation for the last 20 years. Just because she wasn't working for Starfleet anymore doesn't mean she wasn't keeping up with the latest advances in medicine and new techniques, etc. That seemed like a dumb assumption on that doctor's part, so maybe really just dumb writing.

 

And for the Doctor to physically shove Beverly away from the crewman when she was mere minutes off the sickbed herself! What happened to "First do no harm"? I would have given Jack a pass to hit the Titan doctor...

[Zaffy]

So... 24th century, right? Birth Control must be 100% effective, right?
So... Beverly and Picard "tested the mattress" without taking any precautions?
Was it Beverly who wanted a Picard Jr? Or was it the "you did not want children"  fella who didn't put a glove on this willie?
This is so confusing and so silly..and not believable..

 

[starri]

We’ve already seen birth control fail in the 24th century. 

[dovegrey]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

They made him Beverley's son, because Beverley. . A lot of Picard is about his facing his own mortality and reassessing his relationships and responses to his parents, so having a son turn up makes a certain kind of sense.

I agree that this is likely part of the reason for the story (except Q would have known and should have mentioned it or hinted at it last season, right?) but that rationale reads to me like a shoehorned plot contrivance than an organic story. The plot demands a son, so there’s a son. This show does too much reinventing of Picard, IMO.

What would have been doable and organic to this show (and respectful of TNG) is if Team Picard had actually changed time last season and resulted in Jack’s existence, but Team Picard remained their original timeline selves (like Marty McFly remembering life before his dad became a success).

[Lebanna]

5 minutes ago, starri said:

We’ve already seen birth control fail in the 24th century. 

Well, to be fair, we saw birth control forgotten in the middle of a desperate war between a devoted couple who were, after the initial surprise, pretty happy about the results. 

What’s Picard and Crusher’s excuse?

[cambridgeguy]

53 minutes ago, Dani said:

They easily could have had nearly the same impact and story by having Jean-Luc know the truth and agreeing to stay away. It would have better explaining Jack’s anger at Jean-Luc and still created tension between Beverly and Jean-Luc. 

Then they'd be completely ripping off WoK instead of "being influenced" by it.  Should Seven make sure there are easy access radiation suits next to the warp core?  You never know when you might have to rearrange the dilithium crystals (or whatever it was that Spock did) and you really should go in there with more than a pair of gloves.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm biased because DS9 is my favorite Trek and I have been disappointed by how much its been ignored by modern Trek (more than any show besides Enterprise) so I'm happy to see it here.

It's ironic because it's the most "modern" of the TNG era Treks - serialized stories, our heroes engaging in morally grey behavior, Section 31, etc.  And at the time a lot of TNG fans hated the show because of how it was violating the spirit of Trek by doing those things.

Edited March 3, 2023 by cambridgeguy

[paigow]

38 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

Was it Beverly who wanted a Picard Jr? Or was it the "you did not want children"  fella who didn't put a glove on this willie?

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the other one

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Then they'd be completely ripping off WoK instead of "being influenced" by it. 

If they are doing a long lost son plot, I doubt they are concerned about ripping anyone off. 

34 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

I agree that this is likely part of the reason for the story (except Q would have known and should have mentioned it or hinted at it last season, right?) but that rationale reads to me like a shoehorned plot contrivance than an organic story. The plot demands a son, so there’s a son. This show does too much reinventing of Picard, IMO.

What would have been doable and organic to this show (and respectful of TNG) is if Team Picard had actually changed time last season and resulted in Jack’s existence, but Team Picard remained their original timeline selves (like Marty McFly remembering life before his dad became a success).

That would have worked well. It irritates me how many better ways there were to do this. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

49 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

So... 24th century, right? Birth Control must be 100% effective, right?
So... Beverly and Picard "tested the mattress" without taking any precautions?
Was it Beverly who wanted a Picard Jr? Or was it the "you did not want children"  fella who didn't put a glove on this willie?
This is so confusing and so silly..and not believable..

 

In DS9, Sisko got Cassidy pregnant and made a comment about how he forgot to take a birth control shot.

So even if birth control is 100 percent effective if used properly, it may be that like Sisko, they didn't use iit properly.

It also may be that they just jumped to the conclusion that Beverly was unlikely to get pregnant (or that JLP was shooting blanks). Gates McFadden was in her late 30s, early 40s when filming TNG. If Beverly is supposed to be roughly the same age, she would have been in her 50s at ;east at the time she and Picard hooked up. Maybe biology would have changed dramatically with advanced tech, but right now, it would be pretty much impossible for a 50 something woman to get pregnant without medical intervention. 

[starri]

I think it’s also worth noting that we know that human lifespans are longer by the 25th century.  Gates is in her early 70s now, which would have put her in her early 50s around Nemesis, presumably when Jack was conceived.  If the average human lifespan is about 150 (I think they’ve alluded to that before), it doesn’t seem unreasonable that a woman who’s only about a third of the way through a natural lifespan would still have her fertility preserved.

Also, I heard some folks mention the time spent on the Baku planet, which might have revved things up.

I’m not saying it’s a perfect solution, but it’s at least within the realm of possibility.

[paigow]

20 minutes ago, starri said:

Also, I heard some folks mention the time spent on the Baku planet, which might have revved things up.

Crusher and Picard started thinking about a different kind of RECTION 

[Wouter]

On 3/2/2023 at 4:45 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

The only good current Trek is Lower Decks. I know it doesn't seem like it in season 1, but they really find their footing in season 2 and season 3 is great. Let's hope SNW can also improve in its second season.

Prodigy is excellent, too, with far more natural plots/drama then Picard currently has. The animated shows are the best of the current bunch, easily.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Wouter

[paigow]

30 minutes ago, Wouter said:

The animated shows are the best of the current bunch, easily.

Because young adult characters look like young adults... even if the voice actor is 40+ years old....

[Cthulhudrew]

14 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Why can’t they mimic him?  They don’t need a DNA sample to look like a person, and we’ve seen them imitate inorganic objects before.  All they need is a picture and some time to study his mannerisms.

I assume they meant they can't mimic an artificial lifeform's inorganic parts (ie, positronic brain, etc.), so they could be detected via bio-scans and other things that distinguish organic and inorganic life.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Cthulhudrew

[whiporee]

I think they want Jack because he's got the last Picard DNA available. Jean Luc is a synth, after all. I don't know why they want the DNA, but I'm guessing that's why they want Jack. 

Picard's aggressive behavior could be because of his positronic brain reacting badly to the nebula. 

I think the Changelings are good choices for bad guys in this. Not as good as the things from season 1, but pretty good. I was sort of pulling for it to be Wesley, though. 

I wonder why Vadic wanted them in that gravity well, though. Crippled the ship and then just left as it fell. Something's happening in there. 

[norcalgal]

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I mostly agree. I can (sort of) understand the reasoning behind her not wanted Jean-Luc in their life or not wanting it to be known who is father was but not her conclusion that he shouldn’t know the truth. If she had told him and told him no one could know, I don’t think he would have forced himself into their lives particularly given the relationship that they had. 

They easily could have had nearly the same impact and story by having Jean-Luc know the truth and agreeing to stay away. It would have better explaining Jack’s anger at Jean-Luc and still created tension between Beverly and Jean-Luc. 

We have a winner!  If the show had gone this route:

1) they wouldn’t have assassinated Beverly’s character 

2) it would have been in keeping with the honest, mature relationship Picard/Crusher had that we’ve seen portrayed onscreen 

Thank goodness for Worf because he saved the episode for me. Loved the line about beheadings on Wednesdays.

[Athena5217]

I am disappointed Changelings are villains again after we had the Dominion for years on DS9. I can’t believe the writers couldn’t come up with a new villain. 
 

Since when did Geordi have trouble making friends? I thought he was well liked on the Enterprise.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

Since when did Geordi have trouble making friends?

Maybe when they heard about his Holo Leah Brahms fantasies, people did not get too close. Worf & Data were his bros, not many others.

[Tyro49]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:13 PM, readster said:

Really enjoyed this episode, but you know there is more than a rogue section of Changlings really behind this. I mean, you had them trailing Picard and Riker. They wouldn't put a hit on the Crushers just for reasons. Why even have a bounty on them for someone like Vadic to follow? Also, how was it the Shrike had the same subspace weapon that destroyed the institute? Yeah, someone else is behind this and is targeting not only Picard but anyone associated with the Enterprise D/E. Yeah, there is more to this, the Changlings are just getting the satisfaction of revenge and Vadic because she loves this shit. Someone else is pulling the strings.

I also think there is someone else behind this. The Dominion and Changlings are not "long forgotten". Remember the slugs that were controlling people in a first season episode of TNG? And at the end they blew up the guy who was hosting the main slug? Who had sent a mysterious signal out to deep space to an unknown segment of the galaxy? (I can't  remember the episode name.) Those are the "long forgottren enemies" from the episode description; I'm sure of it!

[tkc]

Wow, this season took a giant turn for the better by bringing Worf in! If Raffi can prove herself to him, maybe the Son of Mogh will pour her something a little stronger than chamomile tea next time: prune juice!

Also, before this episode, I would have said that the most gruesome scene ever in Star Trek was Cmdr. Remmick getting blown up in TNG’s S1 “Conspiracy”.

Who knew that it would be exceeded 35 years later in a scene where Picard and Riker have a heartfelt discussion about fatherhood?

What a horrific de-aging job on Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes…

[Peace 47]

9 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Since when did Geordi have trouble making friends? I thought he was well liked on the Enterprise.

That stuck out as odd to me, too.  Geordi used to make friends wherever he went:  enemy Romulans, Borg, androids, old crew members who turned into lizard people …. and the dude had a really well-attended funeral on the Enterprise.  Maybe he became withdrawn after Data died.  I did see a funny comment that said Geordi had trouble getting laid, not making friends, and those are not the same thing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Since when did Geordi have trouble making friends? I thought he was well liked on the Enterprise.

I suppose it's possible that Crash has been told differently by Dad about his friend-making ability than what we saw on screen.

Or it's also possible that there are different levels of what one might consider "friends." Geordi was in a sense close with all the command staff, played weekly poker with everyone and that sort of thing. He's a likeable guy who is generally easy to get along with.

But was he really "friends" with Picard, Riker, Troi, Crusher and Worf? I would say that his only deep friendship actually displayed throughout the show was with Data. We are told in the episode where Geordi was programmed to be a Romulan spy that he is close with O'Brien, but I don't think it's shown beyond that episode.   

9 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

I also think there is someone else behind this. The Dominion and Changlings are not "long forgotten". Remember the slugs that were controlling people in a first season episode of TNG? And at the end they blew up the guy who was hosting the main slug? Who had sent a mysterious signal out to deep space to an unknown segment of the galaxy? (I can't  remember the episode name.) Those are the "long forgottren enemies" from the episode description; I'm sure of it!

"We only seek...peaceful co-existence." Then Picard and Riker look at each other, and were like f--- that I think that was when I first said, "We got something going on here!" Conspiracy is the name of the episode.

I have wanted them to revisit that storyline for ages and had thought of a plot where the aliens from that episode teamed up or fought with the Changelings. I don't think that is going to be the case, though. 

51 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

That stuck out as odd to me, too.  Geordi used to make friends wherever he went:  enemy Romulans, Borg, androids, old crew members who turned into lizard people …. and the dude had a really well-attended funeral on the Enterprise.  Maybe he became withdrawn after Data died.  I did see a funny comment that said Geordi had trouble getting laid, not making friends, and those are not the same thing.

Yeah, I think Geordi canonically had trouble dating. For most of the crew members, there was at least one time where they implicitly or explicitly had sex, or at least, where they were shown to be desirable sexually and/or romantically as part of a main plot. Not Geordi. There was a five second reference in one episode to someone under his command having a crush on him, and he had gone out on a holodate with a Suzanne that went badly but then he apparently managed to convince her to go out with him again. I think that is it. The TNG writers did him dirty that way. 

[readster]

11 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

I also think there is someone else behind this. The Dominion and Changlings are not "long forgotten". Remember the slugs that were controlling people in a first season episode of TNG? And at the end they blew up the guy who was hosting the main slug? Who had sent a mysterious signal out to deep space to an unknown segment of the galaxy? (I can't  remember the episode name.) Those are the "long forgottren enemies" from the episode description; I'm sure of it!

Right and that would also make sense. Something even Rodenberry said way back in the day: "If the enemies of the enterprise/federation actually could like each other long enough, the Federation would be gone." What ultimately did in the Dominion wasn't Sisko and the Federation not giving up. But you had in fighting between the Jem Ha'dar between who was better: gamma born or alpha quadrant ones. Several Vorta started seeing that the Founders were dying and saw the war was not becoming stupid. The Changlings were a mess with their: "You can't trust solids" to "Hey, they saved us, but F' that, we were about to just be a meat grinder in the final days of the war and probably in a week. We would have been extinct and same with our forces. So, let's go back to the entire undercover that didn't work out in the long run." Even with that scism of the Great Link, they needed allies to carry out any type of plan. I could see either the original parasites from season 1 laying low, seeing a commonality between them and the Changlings and pissed off Romulans as we saw in season 1 of Picard and maybe other forces being like: "Hey, we all hate the Federation, but we hard Picard more and guess what these other people like Crusher and Section 31 screwed us over, want to team up?" 

However, you still have to figure out how you can get things in like Vadic fitting into all of this. She goes as a Bounty to hunter but to have a Changling spy on a SPECIFIC ship going after ONE person in paticular that many in secret knew was Picard's son. There is a piece of the puzzle missing here. Someone who had to put this all together, get the subspace equipment to others, SPECIFICALLY Target not only Picard but the entire former crew of the Enterprise D-E. Then have it where even the Changlings were: "We will destroy Worlds and have our revenge!" There is some classic revenge scheme going on here and USING others to do it all and they all get something out of it. 

[whiporee]

12 hours ago, norcalgal said:

They easily could have had nearly the same impact and story by having Jean-Luc know the truth and agreeing to stay away. It would have better explaining Jack’s anger at Jean-Luc and still created tension between Beverly and Jean-Luc. 

Except that's exactly what happened with Kirk and David. Carol asked him to stay away and he did.  

They don't draw parallels between JTK and JLP very often. Jean Luc was pretty Kirk-like in this one, though. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by whiporee

[cambridgeguy]

53 minutes ago, readster said:

What ultimately did in the Dominion wasn't Sisko and the Federation not giving up. But you had in fighting between the Jem Ha'dar between who was better: gamma born or alpha quadrant ones. Several Vorta started seeing that the Founders were dying and saw the war was not becoming stupid. The Changlings were a mess with their: "You can't trust solids" to "Hey, they saved us, but F' that, we were about to just be a meat grinder in the final days of the war and probably in a week. We would have been extinct and same with our forces.

That alpha vs gamma thing came up in one episode and was never discussed again.  The Dominion lost because they couldn't get reinforcements through the wormhole and the Federation managed to trick the Romulans into joining forces with them (thanks Garak!).

Speaking of the wormhole, I wonder if the Prophets (especially Sisko) would vaporize any Dominion battleships that tried to use it. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by cambridgeguy

[readster]

17 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That alpha vs gamma thing came up in one episode and was never discussed again.  The Dominion lost because they couldn't get reinforcements through the wormhole and the Federation managed to trick the Romulans into joining forces with them (thanks Garak!).

Speaking of the wormhole, I wonder if the Prophets (especially Sisko) would vaporize any Dominion battleships that tried to use it. 

How true on the one episode, but it was later said that it was meant to have more point, but they never got to it. Just like the Vorta's TK powers were dropped because of expenses after their debut episode. Plus the fact the entire "cloning of the Vorta" became a thing because they loved Jeffery Combs performance so much. Then admitted that materials were lost when their cloning factors were destroyed with NO back ups anywhere. The hand waving was: "Changlings didn't trust solids and if the Vorta screwed up we can just clone them again... opps now we have no more cell samples. Oh well." 

[greekmom]

Thomas Dekker who played the changeling would have been better and believable as Picard and Crusher off spring than the current guy.  Let him keep the American accent. (I don't buy the whole "he went to school in London and picked up the accent" explanation).

But I still don't buy the storyline.  And did anyone notice that Crusher and Jack jr. are super super close - more than Crusher and Wesley.

Guess we know who the favourite child is in that family.

[starri]

26 minutes ago, greekmom said:

(I don't buy the whole "he went to school in London and picked up the accent" explanation).

I’m a child psychiatrist, and the area I work in has a very high percentage of children of immigrants from all over the world.  Almost without exception, the kids speak English with standard mid-Atlantic accents even if they’re speaking another language at home.