S03.E03: Part Three - Seventeen Seconds

[formerlyfreedom]

Picard grapples with an explosive, life-altering revelation, while the Titan and her crew try to outmaneuver a relentless Vadic in a lethal game of nautical cat and mouse. Meanwhile, Raffi and Worf uncover a nefarious plot from a vengeful enemy Starfleet has long since forgotten.

Dropping Thursday, March 2, 2023.

[cambridgeguy]

Picard and Riker disagreeing about tactics is fine, especially since Picard is rustier.  I could even buy Riker wanting Picard off the bridge since he's a lousy XO.  But Riker's little hissy fit at the end of the episode felt manufactured, especially the you just killed us all part.  YOU are the captain - if you follow a suggestion you disagree with then that's on you, not the guy who suggested it in the first place.  Although who knows, maybe he's a changeling, or Tom Riker, or something else.

[paigow]

Radical Changelings... Odo saved your ungrateful lives... Does Riker have access to AbramsVerse!Enterprise logs / holodeck files?

Escape Black Hole / Gravity Well by ejecting the Warp Core- then destroy it with torpedoes and surf the shock waves...

Or this nebula is sentient... advanced life forms [similar to DS9 wormhole aliens] realize that Picard is The Emissary predicted by prophecy and save everybody...

Edited March 2, 2023 by paigow

[greekmom]

Yep. Show went there. They made Beverly a c u next Tuesday.  Guess Jack was packed off to boarding school from age 5 to develop the accent.  I don't buy what you are selling show.
I was wrong. Seven's left hand still has the Borg tech.
Are they going there? The founders? Really??? At least there was a mention of Odo. RIP. 
 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Picard and Riker disagreeing about tactics is fine, especially since Picard is rustier.

When Titan got renovated, did somebody forget to install a Ready Room? Maybe all that bitching should have happened in private...

[Pothunter]

Question: How boring can a show be?

Answer: Ask Picard. He will give you all the lengthy and boring details.

For me, new Trek is the worst thing on television. Apart from Strange New Worlds. Hope that remains unsullied by this insistence on creating a central character and boring the dickens out of the audience with infuriatingly stupid family-related plots. So disappointing, annoying, earnest, joyless, and pedantic 😞

 

[PurpleTentacle]

So far I'm really not sure why all the reviewers, who got to see 6 episodes, love this season so much. Yes, the characters are a lot better, but they still aren't great and there are a lot of questionable things in here.

- In the last episode the Titan jumped between the crushers ship and the shrike out of nowhere. Now she handles like a lead ballon. What is it? Or was that actually supposed to be a a warp jump? If so, that is even bigger bullshit.

- Picard being the one so gung ho about attacking seems wildly out of character. Especially in this situation. They made it clear all last episode that the Titan is basically a toy compared to the shrike. However little sense this makes, that is what they established now. But now fighting seems to be a viable option? Is Picard just getting senile? Then why would Riker ever listen? Of course the Titan also can't move away from the portal, because again, suddenly it handles like a lead balloon.

- Riker's talk about the delivery of his son seemed like bullshit. With the medical technology they have, what could be the problem? Worst case, you beam the Baby out. I know why they did it, they wanted to draw paralels between that and Picard in the turbo lift later, when Jack was in sickbay and him becoming a father in that moment, but it just doesn't make sense. Also not making sense is the medical tricorder (or "imaging", how they called it here) not picking up on internal bleeding. That's like one of the most basic things that technology does. It can do so much more. Can we please not dumb things down just to show how super competent Dr. Crusher is?

- Isn't the whole thing with the great link that there are no factions, that they are almost a hive mind? Did I misunderstand that or did the writers?

- Jack being turned away at the bridge and instead of trying to explain himself, or trying to reach Picard via coms, just turning around and going to 7 was duuuumb.

- Why was the Changeling so intent on keeping his cover when he could easily have slipped out of those cuffs and killed Rafi and Worf? There isn't much you can do against a changeling, especially when you are unprepared. Five seconds later keeping his cover and plans secret was seemingly of so little priority to him, that he just spilled all his secrets for no reason. Yeah, sure... Also how did Worf knock him out in the first place? Changelings don't have a brain. It also sure was lucky for them that this changeling had been in this form for days, so it needed to return to liquid form within 5 minutes of them capturing him...

- I said last episode that Beverly better have a damn good explaination for not telling Picard and this wasn't it.

- The "surprise adult son"-trope was tired 40 years ago. How are so many people seemingly completely fine with it?

- So we are really supposed to believe this 35 year old man is 20? I thought we had left that stuff behind back in the 90s, maybe 00s...

At times this makes you think it might be a show written in the 90s. But then you remember that TNG was written in the 90s and was generally a lot better and a lot less tropy... It even had a young son of Beverly Crusher's actually being played by a young actor...

13 hours ago, Pothunter said:

For me, new Trek is the worst thing on television. Apart from Strange New Worlds.

Strange New Worlds is kinda meh. It isn't actively offensive, like Discovery and Picard are, but it also isn't particularly good: "Let's hide in this brown dwarf that is currently being absorbed by a black hole, which doesn't take millions of years but only a few hours, for some reason. Also despite being this close to a black hole we experience no time dialation. We should be 100s of years in the future now, but who cares about physics, only 5 seconds have passed.

The only good current Trek is Lower Decks. I know it doesn't seem like it in season 1, but they really find their footing in season 2 and season 3 is great. Let's hope SNW can also improve in its second season.

[Peace 47]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I said last episode that Beverly better have a damn good explaination for not telling Picard and this wasn't it.

I’m so (irrationally) sad about this.  Her reasoning, on which the whole premise of the season so far rests, was complete crap.  Denying Jack and Jean-Luc a relationship just because she made a judgment that Picard was a career man first, and she did it for her kid’s protection?  Guess what, Bev, life happens, and people adjust their choices based on new circumstances.  She knows Picard was always conflicted about not having kids:  how does she know he wouldn’t have wanted to make some family compromises to be in his kid’s life?  What if she had died at some point during the kid’s childhood?  The kid would be shipped off to Jean-Luc as a complete stranger?

Beverly must have really just secretly kind of hated Jean-Luc all along for commanding the mission that got original-recipe Jack killed and resented Jean-Luc, and her physical attraction to him, forever, hence naming the kid Jack.  

Did they cast a too-old actor for Jack because if they had gone age-appropriate, it would have looked more incongruous to have such a young actor next to Stewart and McFadden?

Edited March 2, 2023 by Peace 47

[jmonique]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

- The "surprise adult son"-trope was tired 40 years ago. How re so many people seemingly completely fine with it?

I see what you did there, picking "40 years ago" since that's when Jack was born...

I get it, though. It's gotta be really hard to find 20-year-old white guys for roles in Hollywood. 🙄

I did kinda like the line "I knew I could raise my son. I didn't know if I could raise Jean-Luc Picard's." But a Beverly who'd not only get pregnant and give birth without telling Jean-Luc but also name the kid after her dead husband is not the Beverly I remember from Next Gen. Yeeeeeesh.

[Chaos Theory]

The "Why didn't you tell me about Jack" scene between Jean-Luc Picard and Beverly Crusher was amazing. It adds to what we never witnessed but always wanted about TNG a relationship with a clock on it & the bitterness of regret that it always did.  Beverly’s line “ as a mother your whole being is about protecting your child. I thought I could protect mine. I didn’t know if I could protect yours.”  Says everything you need to know about why she ultimately didn't tell Picard about Jack.     I also really like the idea that yeah Picard could have some big time enemies out there and if they even KNEW he had a son them that son could have a target on his back.  

Loved Space Dad Riker in this and how he became Captain Riker with Picard as his Number One briefly before Picard went all half cocked.

 

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

 

- Isn't the whole thing with the great link that there are no factions, that they are almost a hive mind? Did I misunderstand that or did the writers?

 

They were never hive minds.   They are able to have their own thoughts but   they can read each other minds in the Great Link when they are in liquid form so there is theoretically no secrets between them.  But if a group went off and formed their own link somewhere else then their could essentially be two factions.

 

 

 

 

[dwmarch]

I thought this was the best episode so far although it did have its share of silliness.

Changelings are an odd choice for an enemy here, especially if you are going to have Raffi and Worf capture one. All it had to do was get out of their sight for a second and then turn itself into a puddle or a cloud of gas or another random face in the crowd. And after they did capture it, they should have soon found out that putting handcuffs on a Changeling is not going to be effective. So based on the odd behavior, I have to conclude that it wanted them to have all of that information.

I legit lol'd at "beheadings are on Wednesdays". I also have to laugh at Raffi herself knowing Worf is the kind of cool she will never be.

Did I hear correctly that Picard and Crusher hooked up five separate times? So there could be four more secret Picard children out there? Also Jean-Luc said he would have straight up married Beverly if he had known about her being pregnant which is interesting to hear him say. The TNG novels set post-Nemesis have Picard and Crusher getting married.

Nice how Beverly and Jack just start helping out in sickbay during the crisis. That Trill doctor was unnecessarily rude though. "I don't have time to teach you..." Look lady, she didn't stop being a doctor the moment she left Starfleet, cut her some slack here. FWIW, Beverly doesn't bother trying to convince her and literally pushes her out of the way while working on Captain Shaw.

The Titan sure has no idea how to deal with the portal weapon. They walk right into it twice in a row and then get hit by their own torpedoes when the Shrike is not surprised by the attack later. Also, what happened to guided torpedoes? Do they not have a basic instruction set covering "no matter which ship you end up hitting, do not hit the one you were launched from"? I need to go work at Starfleet Tactical, they clearly need some help here.

[starri]

I am conditionally okay with the Jack reveal.  There is a lot of squinting that’s necessary over the age issue, but I have to say, from a pure performance perspective, that may be the juiciest thing Gates ever got to do in the history of the franchise.  I can see why she was so positive on the season.

The unexpected Raffi/Worf buddy cop story may end up being my favorite part of the season.  We’ll see how it unfolds.  I adored him just calling her “Rafaela,” as I imagine few people get away with doing that.

[PurpleTentacle]

29 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

They were never hive minds.   They are able to have their own thoughts but   they can read each other minds in the Great Link when they are in liquid form so there is theoretically no secrets between them.  But if a group went off and formed their own link somewhere else then their could essentially be two factions.

I said "almost" for a reason. They are still kinda individuals, but mostly one, when they are in the great link. It's also blissfull for them and there is never any real dissent, if I remember correctly. Their connection makes it so disagreements can't really come up or are automatically resolved.

A group of changelings seperated from the Link and forming contradictorary opinions to the link would make sense. But it sounded like these opinions were formed in the link.
I guess it's not contradicting canon per se. Or at least I can't remember well enough to say if it does. But I personally don't like it. They took a species that was very alien, hard to understand from a human (or solids in general) perspective and made them ordinary with this. Just another bunch of people squabbeling.

 

 

 

[Chaos Theory]

20 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I said "almost" for a reason. They are still kinda individuals, but mostly one, when they are in the great link. It's also blissfull for them and there is never any real dissent, if I remember correctly. Their connection makes it so disagreements can't really come up or are automatically resolved.

A group of changelings seperated from the Link and forming contradictorary opinions to the link would make sense. But it sounded like these opinions were formed in the link.
I guess it's not contradicting canon per se. Or at least I can't remember well enough to say if it does. But I personally don't like it. They took a species that was very alien, hard to understand from a human (or solids in general) perspective and made them ordinary with this. Just another bunch of people squabbeling.

 

 

 

But then adding Odo who has a completely different history and a lost war adds two factors that weren’t in the link before.  Normally Odo’s voice would be drowned out by everyone else’s but since he was brought in to save everyone in the link he likely came out with a strong voice.  And if there is one dissenting voice that is one thing but a few not happy with the way the Dominion War ended and the concessions they were likely forced to agree to you have a deep rumbling in the link that likely fractured the unity.  
 

I really don’t think it is that much of a stretch anymore then the way Star Trek has so far written The Borg.  They were an unbeatable force but over the years of Trek they got chopped away.  It’s not a bad thing and having The Great Link 20 or so. (It has never been really clear how many years it has actually been) later the changelings might have grown angry with the deal they made.  

Edited March 2, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[starri]

12 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

(It has never been really clear how many years it has actually been) later the changelings might have grown angry with the deal they made.  

In-universe, we’re in 2402 or 2403.  The Dominion War ended in 2375, so it’s been the better part of three decades.

[paigow]

Why is Titan Sickbay understaffed? EMH!!!!???? Crusher had one 20 years ago FFS...

[starri]

I will say it was a bit odd that the Changeling was played by Thomas Dekker, who was one of Picard’s Nexus children in Generations in the same episode where we’re confirmed that he has a son played by a different actor.

[Stardancer Supreme]

Well. Beverly earns the Dishonesty Award.  Sigh. She could have told Picard as soon as she knew she was pregnant! I also liked that Picard asked the same questions I had voiced while watching their scene.  So what is it about Jack makes him valuable to Vadic?  All this toying around for the son of Picard that he didn't even know about just doesn't make sense right now.

I did like how she managed to keep the Titan doctor from letting Shaw die. Are the newer doctors solely reliant on scanners and machinery now?

So the crew really didn't like Shaw.  They melded under Riker smooth as butter!  It's also nice to know that they didn't agree with the dead naming of Seven.

Worf is awesome. "Beheadings are on Wednesdays." The cackle I let out... 

Changelings!  

Damn, is it next Thursday yet?

 

 

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, starri said:

I will say it was a bit odd that the Changeling was played by Thomas Dekker, who was one of Picard’s Nexus children in Generations in the same episode where we’re confirmed that he has a son played by a different actor.

Thank you!!!!! I knew that emo looking guy was soooo freaking familiar yet I couldn't put my finger on it. Even though I also met the guy years ago at Fan Expo.  It was driving me nuts!!!!  

[Lebanna]

I have really loved this show up to now, despite everything, but this storyline is such utter trash. 

Does Jack look like the most ancient 19/20 year old ever? Did the Federation ban face cream as well as androids? Dude sure has some city miles on him.

I mean, he’s an extremely good looking guy, please do not get me wrong. He’s super cute. He does look more like he would be a child of Trip from Enterprise, but come on, the guy also doesn’t look a day younger than 35. A blond 35 at that. Are they actually serious with this shit?

[MissLucas]

Man, the future is dark. I keep waiting for whoever's Captain at the moment ordering his XO to 'give him a ping'.

During the confrontation between Picard and Beverly you could almost see the list on the writers room's whiteboard where they had listed all the crappy out-of-character reasons for her decision. I'm glad Beverly was never a favorite of mine because that was some fine character assassination.

And more of that Burnham-writing I love so much - make characters dumb to let the true stars of the show shine.

Changelings huh? Never liked Odo and blanked out on how the Dominion War ended. Time for a Memory Alpha deep dive.

The best thing about this episode was mellow Worf calling out Raffi's Raffaela's ridiculous hoodie. Next episode please say something about her make-up choices! Also: mildly intrigued by Jack's hallucination of Seven.

9 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

So far I'm really not sure why all the reviewers, who got to see 6 episodes, love this season so much.

Me too, can't believe some of the more curmudgeonly critics of New Trek were singing such high praises 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 3, 2023 by MissLucas

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I said "almost" for a reason. They are still kinda individuals, but mostly one, when they are in the great link. It's also blissfull for them and there is never any real dissent, if I remember correctly. Their connection makes it so disagreements can't really come up or are automatically resolved.

That's how it was (supposedly) but then Odo killed another Changeling and there was a big argument about what to do with him - ultimately they made a decision, but it wasn't the usual harmony.  Then you know they would have been pissed at S31 and the Federation for cooking up the Changeling virus.

[greekmom]

37 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I'm glad Beverly was never a favorite of mine because that was some fine character assassination.

And more of that Burnham-writing I love so much - make characters dumb to let the true stars of the show shine.

Changelings huh? Never liked Odo and blanked out on how the Dominion War ended. Time for a Memory Alpha deep dive.

IMHO I think that Beverly deserves the worst mother of century award like Worf deserves worst dad of the year.  

Section 31 infected Odo with a virus which he infected the female changeling who infected the great link.  The Federation, Klingons with the Romulans got the tactical advantage. Kira and Garek assisted Damar and his faction to take back Cardassia from the Dominion.  Odo agreed to provide the Founders with the cure that Bashir came up when he went into the section 31's mind. The female Changeling agreed to stand trial.  Wonder which high security jail she's in now and if Salome Jens will pop up.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

So far I'm really not sure why all the reviewers, who got to see 6 episodes, love this season so much. Yes, the characters are a lot better, but they still aren't great and there are a lot of questionable things in here.

- In the last episode the Titan jumped between the crushers ship and the shrike out of nowhere. Now she handles like a lead ballon. What is it? Or was that actually supposed to be a a warp jump? If so, that is even bigger bullshit.

- Picard being the one so gung ho about attacking seems wildly out of character. Especially in this situation. They made it clear all last episode that the Titan is basically a toy compared to the shrike. However little sense this makes, that is what they established now. But now fighting seems to be a viable option? Is Picard just getting senile? Then why would Riker ever listen? Of course the Titan also can't move away from the portal, because again, suddenly it handles like a lead balloon.

- Riker's talk about the delivery of his son seemed like bullshit. With the medical technology they have, what could be the problem? Worst case, you beam the Baby out. I know why they did it, they wanted to draw paralels between that and Picard in the turbo lift later, when Jack was in sickbay and him becoming a father in that moment, but it just doesn't make sense. Also not making sense is the medical tricorder (or "imaging", how they called it here) not picking up on internal bleeding. That's like one of the most basic things that technology does. It can do so much more. Can we please not dumb things down just to show how super competent Dr. Crusher is?

- Isn't the whole thing with the great link that there are no factions, that they are almost a hive mind? Did I misunderstand that or did the writers?

- Jack being turned away at the bridge and instead of trying to explain himself, or trying to reach Picard via coms, just turning around and going to 7 was duuuumb.

- Why was the Changeling so intent on keeping his cover when he could easily have slipped out of those cuffs and killed Rafi and Worf? There isn't much you can do against a changeling, especially when you are unprepared. Five seconds later keeping his cover and plans secret was seemingly of so little priority to him, that he just spilled all his secrets for no reason. Yeah, sure... Also how did Worf knock him out in the first place? Changelings don't have a brain. It also sure was lucky for them that this changeling had been in this form for days, so it needed to return to liquid form within 5 minutes of them capturing him...

- I said last episode that Beverly better have a damn good explaination for not telling Picard and this wasn't it.

- The "surprise adult son"-trope was tired 40 years ago. How are so many people seemingly completely fine with it?

- So we are really supposed to believe this 35 year old man is 20? I thought we had left that stuff behind back in the 90s, maybe 00s...

At times this makes you think it might be a show written in the 90s. But then you remember that TNG was written in the 90s and was generally a lot better and a lot less tropy... It even had a young son of Beverly Crusher's actually being played by a young actor...

To quickly respond to the nitpicks here:

The difference in how the Titan is handling might have something to do with a) being in a nebula and b) taking a beating from the Shrike.

The situation can't be negotiated out of at least from Picard's perspective because he's not going to give up his son. It remains a mystery why Shaw or someone wasn't like, "Hey you want this suspected criminal? Here you go!" So your options are flight or fight, really. They had shown that the Shrike had some way of tracking the Titan, which should have been impossible given the nebula messing up the sensors. So flight was not really an option. That leaves fight. At least on paper to me, Picard's plan made sense: Take advantage of the Shrike not knowing that the Titan knows they were tracking them to lead the Shrike into an ambush. It was an echo to me of the plan to destroy the Borg Cube by channeling the deflector dish energy into a single blast. If it had caught the Borg by surprise, even despite the Cube's superiority, it might have worked. As to Picard's plan here, no clue why it didn't work out. It seemed Baddie was 100 percent ready for it. Maybe there's a second spy on board? It didn't seem like the first spy had a chance to do anything to warn her.

Thad died of a disease eventually. Maybe it was something he had at birth, or maybe there were any number of complications. As great as their technology is in the Trek world, it's still possible for things to go wrong and it's possible for technology to have blind spots. I forget the stated issue with the imager but it is plausible that it might not pick up on bleeding before a certain point. 

Someone already pointed out you are mistaken about the Changelings. The Great Link allows them to experience communion with each other. To quote dialogue from a DS9 episode:

"When you return to The Link, what will become of the entity I'm talking to right now?"

"The drop becomes the ocean."
"And if you choose to take solid form again?"
"The ocean becomes a drop."

The quote IMO is at least somewhat ambiguous as to how much individuality a Changeling might retain while in the Great Link. But even taking this quote to mean that while in the Great Link everyone has the same mindset, there is nothing that stops a Changeling separated from the Great Link from developing their own thoughts and desires independent of what the Great Link wants, or a group of such Changelings from developing their own plans that are antithetical to what the Great Link or the majority of Changelings might want. Odo of course is Exhibit A.

 I will give you the Jack-being-turned-away-so-he-turns-to-Seven is pretty dumb. Heck, Jack being able to walk around free and clear is pretty dumb. He had just escaped the Brig, so he should be secured there just for that. He is the enemy's objective, and so protecting him (or securing him so they can hand-deliver him if necessary) should be the crew's priority. I might be misremembering, but when we last saw him, he was trying to beam himself away to give himself up. Preventing him from doing so again, or hopping into a shuttlecraft should have been a priority.

Pretty sure that you can in fact subdue a Changeling with physical force. I think it's fair that whatever drug they used on the Changeling did inhibit its ability to shapeshift and to reason.

The explanation Bev gave was a slightly longer and better acted version of "You had your world. I had mine. And I wanted him in mine." But Bev does have a point: Picard has many enemies, any number of whom would love to strike at Picard through his son.  I am surprised that they didn't do the callback to the episode where the Ferengi faked a rando being Picard's son so he could take vengeance on Picard. 

I wish they would have not gone this route of unknown adult son, but here we are.

[Zaffy]

This is one was meh...

So far, I cannot stand anything Jack related. I found Beverly's excuses idiotic (to say the least) and the son so annoying that I confess I wanted him to die ..but his mamma revived him... doh...

I also do not get Vedic's tactic..she wants the son alive, so shooting at ship he is located is so stupid.
And what about the mole in Titan? why he did not destroy the warp sooner and avoid all the nebula drama?
Or deactivate shields and transport Jack to the other ship..or or or there are so many actions he could take. 

And then we have the badly written confrontation between Riker and Picard.. I mean wth? none of it made sense, except maybe if this is not the real Will.

To my surprise I actually enjoy the Raffa - Worf plot and I do not mind the changelings as the main villain.

I am hoping we are not having a deja vu with last season, that had 2 amazing episodes at the beginning and from there it went downhill...

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

51 minutes ago, greekmom said:

IMHO I think that Beverly deserves the worst mother of century award like Worf deserves worst dad of the year.  

Section 31 infected Odo with a virus which he infected the female changeling who infected the great link.  The Federation, Klingons with the Romulans got the tactical advantage. Kira and Garek assisted Damar and his faction to take back Cardassia from the Dominion.  Odo agreed to provide the Founders with the cure that Bashir came up when he went into the section 31's mind. The female Changeling agreed to stand trial.  Wonder which high security jail she's in now and if Salome Jens will pop up.

Considering Salome Jens is close to 90, I tend to think that they will have to recast that character if they want to bring her back. 

[dwmarch]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Heck, Jack being able to walk around free and clear is pretty dumb. He had just escaped the Brig, so he should be secured there just for that.

I like that they are paying more attention to security in this show but they are doing it in a weird way. Is there a guard at every turbolift entrance? Every Jeffries tube? Every ladder? And for Seven being confined to quarters, why a guard at all? Why not just lock the door? And despite all of these random guards the visitors to the Titan still come and go as they please. Shaw said he runs a tight ship but what I think is really happening here is that he has a crew that is good at looking like they are busy while accomplishing very little actual work!

[readster]

Really enjoyed this episode, but you know there is more than a rogue section of Changlings really behind this. I mean, you had them trailing Picard and Riker. They wouldn't put a hit on the Crushers just for reasons. Why even have a bounty on them for someone like Vadic to follow? Also, how was it the Shrike had the same subspace weapon that destroyed the institute? Yeah, someone else is behind this and is targeting not only Picard but anyone associated with the Enterprise D/E. Yeah, there is more to this, the Changlings are just getting the satisfaction of revenge and Vadic because she loves this shit. Someone else is pulling the strings.

[KeithJ]

I’m still not understanding what exactly the Shrike wanted with Jack and Beverly.  

Is the Shrike commander a changeling?  

Does the Shrike really want Picard?

How did the changelings know the Titan would be the ship Riker and Picard would commandeer to save Beverly to have a changeling saboteur on board?  Or, do they have changelings on every Star Fleet ship?

Why is a 35 year old actor playing a 20 year old?

I know this show is Picard but, looking at the storylines, the Rafi / Worf storyline actually seems like the main storyline now.

[Stardancer Supreme]

27 minutes ago, readster said:

Really enjoyed this episode, but you know there is more than a rogue section of Changlings really behind this. I mean, you had them trailing Picard and Riker. They wouldn't put a hit on the Crushers just for reasons. Why even have a bounty on them for someone like Vadic to follow? Also, how was it the Shrike had the same subspace weapon that destroyed the institute? Yeah, someone else is behind this and is targeting not only Picard but anyone associated with the Enterprise D/E. Yeah, there is more to this, the Changlings are just getting the satisfaction of revenge and Vadic because she loves this shit. Someone else is pulling the strings.

 

Hmmm. I'm willing to bet that 

Spoiler

Vadic just miiiight be the Female Changeling that was captured at the end of the Dominion War?  That would explain how she knows so much about Starfleet after being their prisoner for a few decades. 

 

I still wonder what is so special about Jack. Hopefully they won't drag this mystery out for so many episodes only to mess up the landing for the series finale.

[paigow]

Not a spoiler that Lore eventually shows up... being synthetic, Changelings cannot mimic him. So he either controls these rebel Changelings like his mini Borg army... or ends up an unlikely ally for Team Picard...

[readster]

2 minutes ago, paigow said:

Not a spoiler that Lore eventually shows up... being synthetic, Changelings cannot mimic him. So he either controls these rebel Changelings like his mini Borg army... or ends up an unlikely ally for Team Picard...

I think it is the latter, because we know that an "aged" hologram Morarty is going to show up too from several previews. He has much against Picard, but to the point he would want the Federation to go down as extra? I think there is more to that, especially the fact that the Bounty was specifically put on the Crushers. That seems more personal than a terrorist faction of the Changlings to go after them. I mean, Vadiac had the portal gun, we know that was all stolen by someone else and was pretty top secret. Why no one understood the firing when the Shrike was teasing them. Plus, I don't see Vadiac's crew as a poorman's version of the Jem'Ha Dar.

 

[marinw]

When in doubt hide in a nebula. It will work until it doesn’t.

Worf is at peak Worf. Michael Dorn is having a ball.

Edited March 3, 2023 by marinw

[FloatOn]

This season has been fine to me. Not anything great like reviewers had been hyping up, but enjoyable enough to a point. The changelings being the villains is a nice twist, especially since everyone had it pegged as being some sort of parasite.

A few nitpicks though:

-Beverly's reasoning for keeping Jack was weak as hell. It got especially ridiculous when it became clear she dropped him off in London for some extended period of time. Picard was sitting at his vineyard doing nothing during that time period, so why exactly couldn't they be around Picard at that point? 

-Riker and Troi seemed like they'd made some sort of peace over the son's death when they appeared in season 1. Now it seems like Riker is in deep depression and despair over it and that it's effecting his marriage? I hope they give an explanation for all that because it seems like drama for drama's sake and so they can compare the Rikers' dead son to Picard & Crusher's alive one. Can't say I loved Troi's first appearance being her being a nagging wife. Hope her and Geordi join the group soon.

-What exactly do they want with Jack. I hope they don't drag that out for episodes, especially since the trailers show that at some point 

Spoiler

Vadic has Troi, and then later Troi and Riker 

so either she's taking people one by one or pivots her attention soon enough.

[greekmom]

3 minutes ago, FloatOn said:

  Hide contents

Vadic has Troi, and then later Troi and Riker 

so either she's taking people one by one or pivots her attention soon enough.

Is this a confirmed spoiler? Or your speculation??

[dovegrey]

I mostly enjoyed this episode. The nebula scenes were cool, and I really, really, really enjoyed when the Shrike portaled Titan's attack back at them. I'm curious about Vadic, who is pretty entertaining.

Is there something with Jack and Seven? He gave her a look but didn’t say anything when he first came on board; he specifically sought her out in this episode; now he had that weird hallucination (?) of her. I’m curious if they ever crossed paths when she was a Ranger.

I'm worried that this season, while much more interesting than season 1 and thematically intact than season 2, has the same problems as the first two. The interesting stories and characters don't get to breathe (I'd love to get to know this crew), so the focus can be on Picard, who is one of the most grating parts of the show.

Some specific things that bugged:

I can’t tell if Picard is acting bizarre or if Riker is acting bizarre or if it’s just bad writing.

I don’t at all like Sidney. “I’m the daughter of a well-known legend and I decided to take the same career path as him but on a different part of a ship and that’s been so hard!” is not anywhere in the same realm of problem as “as a young child, I was kidnapped and brutalized by an alien race for 20 years, was rejected by Starfleet for 20 years because of being kidnapped+brutalized, and am now all-but-rejected by my boss who refuses to even use my name because he doesn’t like the alien race that kidnapped and brutalized me.” What was that scene, besides more cringe, bad writing. Seven was gracious.

It doesn’t make sense that Seven is still confined to quarters, or that her “guard” still takes orders from her (when she allowed Sidney and then Jack inside)…except when he doesn’t. If I was Picard and Riker, I’d immediately want the ship’s real First Officer - and brilliant Seven of Nine - out and about doing her job. More bad writing, apparently so Picard and Riker could have a bizarre falling out in the middle of a catastrophe.

It would have made a tiny bit more sense if Picard had known about Jack and didn’t want involved for the reasons Beverly cited. But since Jack is more than likely a huge retcon who wasn't conceptualized until after season 2, the writers couldn’t do that, because then Jack’s existence would have needed to be a key part of Q's machinations in season 2. More bad writing. On that note, I keep thinking that it might have been a better story if Jack was Rios who came back to the future with Team Picard, quit Starfleet again, and got involved in the Mariposa Medical thing that Beverly is a part of. But I guess that wouldn’t give Beverly the same level of story or allow the whole show to revolve around Picard's retconned personal life.

I'm liking Raffi less and less. How was someone as impulsive and erratic as her ever successful in Starfleet, let alone someone who saw eye-to-eye with Picard? I watched Trek mostly when I was a kid, so maybe I have rose colored glasses on, but I don't remember archaic torture practices even being something that would cross any Federation citizen's mind in this century. I don't mind some realism or grit but Trek usually represented the best of what we could be - and how far we'd come since the grievous savageries of our species, as Q would put it. Between that and medical treatment now being CPR + fancy paddles with body flopping, I feel the writers think this is 2023 with fancy starships and aliens.

Edited March 3, 2023 by dovegrey

[ch1]

46 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I know this show is Picard but, looking at the storylines, the Rafi / Worf storyline actually seems like the main storyline now.

Possibly setting up for a spinoff?

 

[FloatOn]

12 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Is this a confirmed spoiler? Or your speculation??

Spoiler

You can see them together on her ship in the last trailer when she's yelling at him about abandoning her to run off with Picard. In the this season promo from a week or two ago, you can see Troi on there alone looking distressed and like she's crying. The background is exactly the same as the one Vadic is on in these episodes so they're definitely on there at some point and they seem to be alone since there's not any other scenes of the Picard cast on there but them. 

 

[Cattoy]

Well, they went there. I was hoping against hope there was a reason Crusher kept Jack a secret beyond "Na-na na-na boo-boo". It's so contrived, and don't get me started on the future's serious lack of reliable birth control, especially given that neither were in their prime fertility years. It makes Crusher seem so pathetic. She knew Wesley missed his father deeply, and she deliberately kept Jack from his father. Ugh.

Someone previously stated it best, but the make-everyone-else-dumb cliche is wearing thin on this show. Seriously, you have a prior Borg on board with the Collective's knowledge and no one thinks to get her input? Double ugh.

That weird hallucination thingy when Seven rescued Jack - I'm hoping they're implying he has some sort of abilities,  hence why everyone is after him, rather than her falling for the roughest looking 20 year old in the galaxy. Maybe generations of interacting with Space Ghost made the Howard women prone to giving birth to OP sons... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Zaffy said:

This is one was meh...

So far, I cannot stand anything Jack related. I found Beverly's excuses idiotic (to say the least) and the son so annoying that I confess I wanted him to die ..but his mamma revived him... doh...

I also do not get Vedic's tactic..she wants the son alive, so shooting at ship he is located is so stupid.
And what about the mole in Titan? why he did not destroy the warp sooner and avoid all the nebula drama?
Or deactivate shields and transport Jack to the other ship..or or or there are so many actions he could take.

 

The only rationale I can come up with is that Vadic is a psycho who enjoys toying with her prey. They could have just overpowered the Titan from the jump. But instead, they extended an offer for them to mull over Sophie's choice.

1 hour ago, KeithJ said:

How did the changelings know the Titan would be the ship Riker and Picard would commandeer to save Beverly to have a changeling saboteur on board?  Or, do they have changelings on every Star Fleet ship?.

I believe that there was someone who witnessed the meeting between Picard and Riker. With the revelation this episode that the changelings are involved, that person was probably one and decided to follow P/R. 

1 hour ago, FloatOn said:

This season has been fine to me. Not anything great like reviewers had been hyping up, but enjoyable enough to a point. The changelings being the villains is a nice twist, especially since everyone had it pegged as being some sort of parasite.

A few nitpicks though:

-Beverly's reasoning for keeping Jack was weak as hell. It got especially ridiculous when it became clear she dropped him off in London for some extended period of time. Picard was sitting at his vineyard doing nothing during that time period, so why exactly couldn't they be around Picard at that point? 

-Riker and Troi seemed like they'd made some sort of peace over the son's death when they appeared in season 1. Now it seems like Riker is in deep depression and despair over it and that it's effecting his marriage? I hope they give an explanation for all that because it seems like drama for drama's sake and so they can compare the Rikers' dead son to Picard & Crusher's alive one. Can't say I loved Troi's first appearance being her being a nagging wife. Hope her and Geordi join the group soon.

I can buy that revealing him as JLP's son -- even to JLP -- would subject him to danger from any number of avenues. At some point, Beverly said she told Jack the truth about his dad and left it to him as to whether he wanted to meet him. He didn't. so I can buy that even when JLP was retired and generally safe, Bev still didn't tell  him in respect to Jack's wishes.

There's a limit to how much peace one ever makes with a dead son. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, dovegrey said:

It doesn’t make sense that Seven is still confined to quarters, or that her “guard” still takes orders from her (when she allowed Sidney and then Jack inside)…except when he doesn’t. If I was Picard and Riker, I’d immediately want the ship’s real First Officer - and brilliant Seven of Nine - out and about doing her job. More bad writing, apparently so Picard and Riker could have a bizarre falling out in the middle of a catastrophe.

 

Upon rewatch, that bugged me a bit as well.  I can buy Riker not thinking of Seven as he just met her, but Picard just spent several years with Seven gallivanting about the universe amid time travel shenanigans. Picard being well acquainted with her intelligence and numerous talents, I was surprised that he didn't immediately suggest to Will to get Seven to work figuring out their circumstances! It would have made better sense than to have Jack include her because he suddenly remembered that she was a Fenris Ranger a short time ago.

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Not a spoiler that Lore eventually shows up... being synthetic, Changelings cannot mimic him. So he either controls these rebel Changelings like his mini Borg army... or ends up an unlikely ally for Team Picard...

 

Huh, so they now can't imitate Picard because of his synthetic body? Interesting. 

[Guest]

In one episode they went from me being all in to only watching for Worf. If I wasn’t so irritated I’d be impressed at how quickly they made all the wrong choices. It was like well acted fanfic. 

8 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I’m so (irrationally) sad about this.  Her reasoning, on which the whole premise of the season so far rests, was complete crap.  Denying Jack and Jean-Luc a relationship just because she made a judgment that Picard was a career man first, and she did it for her kid’s protection?  Guess what, Bev, life happens, and people adjust their choices based on new circumstances.  She knows Picard was always conflicted about not having kids:  how does she know he wouldn’t have wanted to make some family compromises to be in his kid’s life?  What if she had died at some point during the kid’s childhood?  The kid would be shipped off to Jean-Luc as a complete stranger?

Beverly must have really just secretly kind of hated Jean-Luc all along for commanding the mission that got original-recipe Jack killed and resented Jean-Luc, and her physical attraction to him, forever, hence naming the kid Jack.  

Did they cast a too-old actor for Jack because if they had gone age-appropriate, it would have looked more incongruous to have such a young actor next to Stewart and McFadden?

It really pissed me off that the kept playing up Beverly being a badass to the press just to go with this character assassination plot line. I want badass women in Star Trek but there is nothing empowering about Beverly here.
Even if I could be okay with her keeping Jack from Jean-Luc, WTF is up with her naming him after her dead husband. Saying that she encouraged Jack to find him once he knew is completely meaningless. Much of what she said rings hollow since we are stuck in a plot based on Jack’s life being in jeopardy even without Jean-Luc in his life. It’s not like she picked some quiet, safe existence to protect him. 

I’m also not thrilled with how they are treating the other women. Can they give LaForge a personality of her own and why waste a Marina Sirtis appearance just to make her the suffering wife making projectile vomit jokes. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

3 minutes ago, Dani said:

Even if I could be okay with her keeping Jack from Jean-Luc, WTF is up with her naming him after her dead husband. Saying that she encouraged Jack to find him once he knew is completely meaningless. Much of what she said rings hollow since we are stuck in a plot based on Jack’s life being in jeopardy even without Jean-Luc in his life. It’s not like she picked some quiet, safe existence to protect him. 

 

This!!! Beverly says that she gave Jack the opportunity to contact Picard; how did she do that? Did she even tell Jack that she never told Picard about him?  Jack hollers at Picard, "I have no Father!" when he was asked who his father was. Why would he be angry if he knew that Picard didn't even know he existed?  Sloppy retcon and sloppy writing!

[Glade]

Wow, this was emotionally powerful and dynamic storytelling! Chracter-driven and action-packed! This almost makes me wonder if there could be more DS9 characters incoming, since the main enemies are changelings. The next-next generation aspect also makes me wish that Miral, the daughter of Tom Paris/B'Elanna Torres could also appear, since we know from Endgame that she joined Starfleet as well. 

[Cthulhudrew]

Did Jack Crusher just visit 12 Monkeys' Red Forest?

I feel like they could have condensed the story we've gotten in three episodes into two (at least eps 1 and 2 could have easily been a single episode). A lot of forced melodrama.

I miss Rios, even if they didn't give him much to do last season. Since Raffi seems to be using La Sirena, it would have been nice to see Santiago Cabrera reprise one or more of the ship's holograms.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Cthulhudrew

[thuganomics85]

Man, they really went there by having Beverly's excuse to not tell Picard basically be a half-assed "You are always out there being a hero and getting yourself in danger, so I figured there was no point with burdening you about the fact you have a child on its way" reason.  I mean, yeah, I do think she isn't completely wrong that Picard is someone who always can't help but to be the hero when the time calls for it, butI can also believe that had he known the truth, he would have taken the time to reassess was it important to him.  I'm not sure what the writers wanted me to think about all of that, but I was totally on Picard's side and understood his anger.  She just wrote him off with ease.  The scene was well-acted at least: Patrick Stewart in particular really sold the anger and confusion over everything he was learning.

So, it looks like it's going to be the Changelings who will be the big baddies (for now, at least?) this season.  Did like the Odo shoutout: too bad a cameo is a no go due to Rene Auberjonois' passing.  Not sure what there endgame is and if Vadic is one as well, but I'm kind of curious about this (especially since Deep Space Nine is always an interesting part of Star Trek lore.  At times, it feels like other shows shy away from it, despite being considered by a decent amount of fans to be the best Trek ever.)

I have no idea what to make of Picard and Riker's sudden battle of words.  Picard clearly doesn't fit as the X/O due to his need to keep pushing and overstepping, but Riker responded in a way that seemed borderline unprofessional.  I'm wondering if he got swapped out with a Changeling somehow.  My other theory is that we did overhear them talking about using the knowledge of a saboteur to their advantage, so I wonder if this somehow all an act.  Like they are trying to make everyone think there is major issues between them, so that they can somehow weed out the mole.  I'm honestly clueless right now.

The whole "Sometimes old school medicine is the best option!" thing was on the nose.

Shaw is looking rough, but I'm glad he's still kicking around for now.

What was up with Jack's hallucination?

Raffi/Worf have somehow become the highlight this season so far.  A lot of it could be I'm just realizing how much I love Worf and glad to see him again.  His deadpan/sarcastic one-liners never fail (although, nothing will ever top "Sir, I protest!  I am NOT a merry man!")  But I really, really want both stories to intertwine soon, because I now want to see Worf and Seven interact.  The galaxy would not survive their deadpan wit and formal putdowns!

Wish Vadic did more than just say "fire" over and over again.  I wanted some evil cackling and more ways for Amanda Plummer to dine on the scenery like she did last week!

Jonathan Frakes sure knows how to direct a Star Trek show!

There are definitely some flaws here, but I actually do see why this is getting more cautious praise than the previous seasons.  Even when I notice the ridiculousness or eye-rolling moments, there just seems to be more fun so far.  I do think nostalgia plays a part though (although I still maintain the cast from the previous seasons were good and worked well with Picard.)  But Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes' natural chemistry alone can make up for a lot of weaknesses.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I miss Rios, even if they didn't give him much to do last season. Since Raffi seems to be using La Sirena, it would have been nice to see Santiago Cabrera reprise one or more of the ship's holograms.

The show could just about get away with downgrading Evan Evagora and Isa Briones from full-time regulars to bit part extras in season two because they are very young actors at the start of their career, but they can't really pull that nonsense on someone as established as Cabrera. He originally signed on for the show as one of the leads, he was the first actor attached to the project after Stewart, and the role he signed up to play was 'Star Trek ship's captain' (the concept of the holos came later). He then got screwed over by the change of showrunner going into season two, although not as badly as Evagora and Briones, because Matalas didn't want another captain stealing any thunder from the great Jean-Luc Picard, so under-wrote Rios to prevent that and then wrote him out about as comprehensively as possible. So I really can't see Cabrera agreeing to return for a few bit part appearances as a holo in the third season Matalas so determinedly did not want him for! He has already said in interviews that he preferred Rios to the holos, because there was more to get his teeth into, that was the role he originally agreed to play.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Llywela

[cambridgeguy]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

Not a spoiler that Lore eventually shows up... being synthetic, Changelings cannot mimic him. So he either controls these rebel Changelings like his mini Borg army... or ends up an unlikely ally for Team Picard...

Why can’t they mimic him?  They don’t need a DNA sample to look like a person, and we’ve seen them imitate inorganic objects before.  All they need is a picture and some time to study his mannerisms.

[Peace 47]

It seems like most reviewers that I’ve seen around the Internet are of the view that yeah, Beverly’s reasons were a little sus, but at least understandable as to why she would take the position she did.  But I’m over here banging my head against a wall because I just can’t get past the fact that if she really, genuinely and rationally thought that Jack was in danger just by virtue of having the last name “Picard,” why she didn’t explain it all to Jean-Luc when she was pregnant and ask for his buy-in about not publicly acknowledging his kid.  I can’t think of anything in their interactions in the original show that would lead me to believe they couldn’t have worked it out.  They were always so supportive of one another.

I always ship Picard/ Crusher when I go back and watch TNG:  I wonder if this will make “Kill Bill” sirens go off in my head when I see them have a moment now, lol.

[Egg McMuffin]

On 3/2/2023 at 6:31 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Picard and Riker disagreeing about tactics is fine, especially since Picard is rustier.  I could even buy Riker wanting Picard off the bridge since he's a lousy XO.  But Riker's little hissy fit at the end of the episode felt manufactured, especially the you just killed us all part.  YOU are the captain - if you follow a suggestion you disagree with then that's on you, not the guy who suggested it in the first place.  Although who knows, maybe he's a changeling, or Tom Riker, or something else.

I thought exactly the same thing. “See what you made me do?” Grow the fuck up, Will.