S01.E05: Endure and Survive

[Nashville]

15 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Then again, Henry never said he was a good guy, unlike self-proclaimed "good" guys that were shown at the beginning of the episode pillaging, dragging dead bodies around and killing prisoners of war without trial. Moralizing this issue will not help to make Kathleen and her gang of child killers to look any better, even if Henry did the wrong thing. Henry was one man with no power, and Kathleen was the judge, jury and executioner and had all the power.

Funny thing when you think about it, though:

• Kathleen was not the original leader of the resistance - hardly surprising, considering she was a narcissistic sociopath with the charisma of a lunchbox.
• Michael (Kathleen’s brother) was the original charismatic resistance leader who inspired fanatical loyalty.
• Resistance loyalty didn’t transfer to Kathleen until FEDRA had essentially martyred Michael.
• The only reason FEDRA got its hands on Michael was Henry’s betrayal.

So here’s the question to keep you up at night: would Kathleen ever have had “all the power” to persecute Henry, had Henry’s own actions not enabled Kathleen to acquire that power in the first place?

 

11 hours ago, Absurda said:

I've been thinking about goods and such.  In the first episode one of the FEDRA guys said in Atlanta they were manufacturing bullets and pills.  So, there is some manufacturing going on. 

Don’t forget, the FED in FEDRA stands for “Federal” - and even in our time, precedent has already been set for troop mobilization by the federal government to step in and provide manpower for infrastructure-critical jobs (manufacturing and otherwise) during times of crisis.

And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if medicines and munitions rank pretty high on the list of what constitutes “infrastructure-critical”….

Edited February 14, 2023 by Nashville
Not just manufacturing

[Cheezwiz]

I immediately adored Henry and Sam and was captivated by their story, so I knew one or both of them would be goners. I honestly thought they'd last a bit longer. I found this episode much more emotionally devastating than the previous one. Bill and Frank had a long-term loving relationship and went out on their own terms. This, on the other hand, was just brutal. I knew the boys were in trouble when they were trapped under the car and surrounded by zombies -I figured one of them was going to get bitten. Really fine performances from both young actors.

Although I don't love Ellie, I did enjoy her relationship with little Sam.

This show really does make you think about how morals and integrity kind of go out the window when you're just trying to survive. And I agree with a few others that people would ABSOLUTELY behave this way in a post-apocalyptic society. I think Covid (which is probably a sneak preview of worse things to come) showed that our "civilized" society is only held together with the thinnest of threads. Not that there aren't good people out there, because there certainly are. But they tend to be out numbered, out moneyed or out-gunned by the sociopathic elements of society.  I have zero faith in humanity. None. So the depictions of moral dilemmas on this show have been interesting to me.

 

 

[GustavMahler]

I have to say that there is one aspect of this show that breaks from the Walking Dead mold. Where characters in Dead over stayed their welcome to the point you just wished they would die already, in Last, you hardly get to know them.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

So here’s the question to keep you up at night: would Kathleen ever have had “all the power” to persecute Henry, had Henry’s own actions not enabled Kathleen to acquire that power in the first place?

Henry could not have been the only vulnerable Resistance member. Inevitably, somebody would have betrayed John Connor / Morpheus for some personal reason...

[Uncle JUICE]

THis was on again last night and of course I watched it. Caught the post-infection scene with Sam attacking Ellie and the aftermath. The dawning realization on poor Henry's face after Sam falls lifeless to the floor, that everything he'd done was for nothing, was really something to watch, nice job by that actor. I wish they'd have kept Kathleen around longer, I loved her performance, too. Her school marm tone was insanely menacing, from the second she hit the screen with that doctor Edelstein. When he said this has to stop, and she was like "You mean NOW it has to, right? Because you're in here." That's some good villainy. 

[Starchild]

12 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

When he said this has to stop, and she was like "You mean NOW it has to, right? Because you're in here." That's some good villainy. 

This is one of the things about the show that is really consistent. The characters all talk like real people, not like stock TV characters. I'm into language and it's really noticeable to me.

[CooperTV]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

So here’s the question to keep you up at night: would Kathleen ever have had “all the power” to persecute Henry, had Henry’s own actions not enabled Kathleen to acquire that power in the first place?

Kansas City FEDRA QZ was in power for 20 years. In that time FEDRA created a society ruled by fear and terrible transactions; citizens gave FEDRA information about "bad" people, FEDRA gave citizens goods in exchange, to survive, else everyone was forced to suffer, starve, die of decease, etc.

Kathleen was a pathetic excuse of a leader that insistently refused to see the big picture and the bigger threat of the infected. She couldn't even gave her people the bare minimum of what FEDRA had given them before, meagre supplies for some compliance and life. She could only bring death and destruction to even her most staunch supporters.

I do think that if Henry wouldn't give Michael up to save his brother, someone else would sell Michael to save their relative/spouse, or even to get drugs. And that even assuming Henry wouldn't be shunned by FEDRA and the resistance both to even thinking about that, as it looks like the resistance had known all along who "secret informants" had been, since they rounded them up and killed them all after the coup.

 

[mledawn]

I really enjoyed the BTS for this episode, and learning the actor who played Sam is Deaf. 
 

12 hours ago, Starchild said:

Huh, I've always heard the opposite. 

This is fun - I have always heard the American accent is easier, never the opposite.

[Capricasix]

32 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THis was on again last night and of course I watched it. Caught the post-infection scene with Sam attacking Ellie and the aftermath. The dawning realization on poor Henry's face after Sam falls lifeless to the floor, that everything he'd done was for nothing, was really something to watch, nice job by that actor. I wish they'd have kept Kathleen around longer, I loved her performance, too. Her school marm tone was insanely menacing, from the second she hit the screen with that doctor Edelstein. When he said this has to stop, and she was like "You mean NOW it has to, right? Because you're in here." That's some good villainy. 

Also when Henry was about to give himself up, he said something like “I’ll come out! Just let the kids go”, and she said, “No, sorry 🤷🏽‍♀️” almost as if to say “Too bad, so sad - the kids have to die too”.

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

Also when Henry was about to give himself up, he said something like “I’ll come out! Just let the kids go”, and she said, “No, sorry 🤷🏽‍♀️” almost as if to say “Too bad, so sad - the kids have to die too”.

Agree, this one tiny exchange sort of stood out for me for some reason. The somewhat elongated "No," like a mom who's done negotiating with a six year old but isn't yelling or screaming yet, just chilling. I didn't take it as flippant though, for me it was more like "I have considered this already, and because I'm the one in charge, I'm afraid it isn't going to go down that way." THe same with her "I know why you did it," I really did feel like she absolutely understood his motivations, that she didn't necessarily disagree, but she had "won." Revenge or justice are close enough cousins that they might look the same, depending on perspective. I hate how much I love this show so far. 

[Capricasix]

33 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Agree, this one tiny exchange sort of stood out for me for some reason. The somewhat elongated "No," like a mom who's done negotiating with a six year old but isn't yelling or screaming yet, just chilling. I didn't take it as flippant though, for me it was more like "I have considered this already, and because I'm the one in charge, I'm afraid it isn't going to go down that way." THe same with her "I know why you did it," I really did feel like she absolutely understood his motivations, that she didn't necessarily disagree, but she had "won." Revenge or justice are close enough cousins that they might look the same, depending on perspective. I hate how much I love this show so far. 

Yes! She sounded almost regretful that it was going to end that way - at least, until the horde erupted out of the ground 😄

[Starchild]

54 minutes ago, mledawn said:

This is fun - I have always heard the American accent is easier, never the opposite.

Ha, well I think we can all agree that there are actors in both cultures who are very bad at it lol.

[Uncle JUICE]

10 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Ha, well I think we can all agree that there are actors in both cultures who are very bad at it lol.

Looking at you, guy who played Petyr Baelish and Mayor Carcetti.

[paigow]

22 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Looking at you, guy who played Petyr Baelish and Mayor Carcetti.

His American accent in The Dark Knight Rises was OK... albeit very brief 

[Nashville]

34 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Ha, well I think we can all agree that there are actors in both cultures who are very bad at it lol.

[Tachi Rocinante]

When they were talking about "the kid had to die" who were they referring to? Henry made it seem like he had another brother or something.

[Uncle JUICE]

18 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

When they were talking about "the kid had to die" who were they referring to? Henry made it seem like he had another brother or something.

I don't remember them saying the kid HAD to die, but Kathleen saying maybe he SHOULD have died. This I understood as her counterpoint to Henry's motivation, which was lifesaving cancer medicine for Sam (what he sold out her brother to get). Essentially she thinks Henry intervened on fate's behalf and everything that happened afterward, all the fucked up series of events, were his fault. She's not entirely wrong, either, I mean look at all the shitty stuff that happened to everyone involved over what turned out to be less than two additional weeks of life (if we consider that the pills transaction actually happened before the fall of FEDRA KC), and Henry ended up having to shoot Sam kind of seems like some sort of karmic punishment (if you're Kathleen pre-being beaten then infected by a clicker). 

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

When they were talking about "the kid had to die" who were they referring to? Henry made it seem like he had another brother or something.

43 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

don't remember them saying the kid HAD to die, but Kathleen saying maybe he SHOULD have died.

Ellie has to die because Joel killed Brian (and two other dudes who tried to kill them). And Sam has to die because Same is with Henry.

Henry: I'll come out! Just let the kids go!

Kathleen: No. Sorry. The girl is with the man who kill Bryan. And Sam... well, Sam's with you.

Henry: You don't understand!

Kathleen: But I do. I know why you did what you did. But did you ever stop to think that maybe he was supposed to die?

Henry: He's just a f*cking kid!

Kathleen: Well, kids die, Henry. They die all the time.

[tennisgurl]

I really need to stop getting attached to any character that isn't named Joe or Ellie, getting invested in anyone else is just asking for heartbreak. I was hoping that Sam and Henry could at least make it a few episodes, but of course we cant have nice things. Sam was such a cute kid and I loved the bond he created with Ellie, very big sister like, and Henry and Joel really seemed to bond as kindred spirits. At least with Bill and Frank they had a long happy life together and got to more or less leave on their own terms, Sam and Henry were so young they way they went was so awful, they were so close to getting out. 

A really dark episode, even by this shows standards, but that made me appreciate the lighter moments even more, like Ellie and Joel's response when Henry called Joel her dad. He's/I'm not his dad! 

I really like how they are showing the many shades of grey in this world. FEDRA, especially in KC apparently, has done terrible things, but the revolution that Kathleen created wasn't any better. Henry turned in Kathleen's brother, who was apparently a wonderful person, but he did it out of love for his brother. Its something that we have seen since the show started, what people are willing to do when pushed too far and how they justify it. Melanie Lynskey is so great at going from seeming like this totally normal soccer mom sort of person to getting this cold steely glare, usually while keeping her voice all light and sing song, its really disconcerting. And now, because she was so driven by revenge and cruelty, she's not only dead but it seems like her whole city will probably follow. 

With so much emphasis on the horrors that people have done to each other, you can almost forget about the zombies until they all show up out of nowhere and apparently eat the whole city. Holy shit did I jump!

[paigow]

Is the fungus self regulating its population? Decapitated humans cannot be hosts... so why did the Bloater kill Perry instead of turning him?

[Absurda]

14 hours ago, mledawn said:

Kathleen was played by a Kiwi

I've seen Melanie Lynskey in so many things over the years and never knew until now that she's from New Zealand.  She's so chilling in this because she seems like such an average person.  She doesn't seem evil, she may not have even been this bad if it weren't for her brother being killed.

I think if Henry hadn't betrayed him, KC would still be under FEDRA control.  As the henchman said, he was great, but he was ineffectual.  They needed the violent action of Kathleen to "win".  He may have been betrayed eventually but there's no telling when.

[CooperTV]

2 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I think if Henry hadn't betrayed him, KC would still be under FEDRA control.

And people of KC would be still alive. Oh, the irony!

[Dev F]

42 minutes ago, paigow said:

Is the fungus self regulating its population? Decapitated humans cannot be hosts... so why did the Bloater kill Perry instead of turning him?

The current population of bloaters is probably the first generation that has ever existed, so the cordyceps wouldn't have had time to evolve to ensure that they spread the infection instead of just murdering people. They're currently just a weird evolutionary dead end by which the cordyceps' "stoke aggression" adaptation and their "grow together with the host's body" adaptation have tipped out of balance. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Dev F

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, Absurda said:

She's so chilling in this because she seems like such an average person.  She doesn't seem evil, she may not have even been this bad if it weren't for her brother being killed.

It was her banality, and as mentioned by a poster above, her school-marmish scolding tone that was so chilling. She's like a nouveau post-apocalyptic Nurse Ratched! Seeing her get jumped and devoured was immensely satisfying.

Am I the only one who found the giant bloaters a bit comical looking? They looked kind of like a combo of The Thing and the Staypuft Marshmallow man to me. Not that I'd want to meet one in a dark alley or anything.

[maystone]

9 hours ago, Absurda said:

I think if Henry hadn't betrayed him, KC would still be under FEDRA control.  As the henchman said, he was great, but he was ineffectual.  They needed the violent action of Kathleen to "win".  He may have been betrayed eventually but there's no telling when.

Yes, exactly. I'm late to the discussion, but I did read every single post up to this, and I seem to have a different take on Kathleen than the other posters. She didn't become hard-hearted  because her brother died, she'd always been that way. When she was talking with Perry in her old bedroom, she was saying how good, and kind her brother had always been, but then she says - and I'm paraphrasing - but that wasn't me, not ever. I mean, when she goes to see Michael in prison and he tells her to forgive Henry, her response is "Where is the justice in that?! What is the point of that?!" She's just outraged that forgiveness would even be considered.

So, yeah, Kathleen got things done after Michael was killed because she didn't have any inhibitions against being as brutal as she needed to be to bring down FEDRA. And my impression is that she did it pretty quickly, too; or at least more quickly than things had been going under Michael's leadership.

There were so many small moments in this ep that I loved. Henry and Joel bonding over bad writing in comic books. Joel's whiplash scowl at Ellie when she kind of invites the brothers to travel to WY with them. And Ellie's surprise when Joel tells her matter-of-factly to take out her gun as they start down the tunnels. Yes, Ellie, of course he knew you had had it in your pocket and not your backpack. And it seems like all of those small moments I liked centered on Joel :)

The action scenes were insane. So well choreographed. That child gymnast clicker freaked me the hell out. I do have to agree that the Bloater(?) looked like the Michelin Man, which come to think of it was pretty scary. The BTS noted that they wanted this explosion of infected because they wanted the audience to remember that this is why humanity lost. And that shot of the horde racing toward KC city was terrifying for me. The odds are that now KC will be no more.

But the action sequence that really hit me was from the time Ellie and Sam came bursting through the door to when Henry shot his brother. So much happening! Ellie trying to fight off Sam and screaming for Joel to help; Joel desperately trying to get to her but constantly being blocked by a suddenly shell-shocked Henry until he suddenly shoots Sam, and it's over. The actors and the camera had never stopped moving until that point. It was a short scene but it was so perfectly choreographed, filmed, and acted that it just took my breath away. And then that silence while everyone takes in what just happened.

I love this show.

[Shermie]

On 2/11/2023 at 7:29 PM, Capricasix said:

For a 56-year-old guy, he’s got great aim 😄

What does his age have to do with his aim? Age = experience, so I’d expect better aim from an older person. It’s not like he’s elderly and you expect him to be shaky or have fading eyesight.

On 2/11/2023 at 8:56 PM, thuganomics85 said:

In particular, Kathleen clearly was someone who let her grief drive her to a point of no return, but part of me also wonders if that darkness was always there.  I could understand her anger and lust for revenge, but they way she coldly told Henry that kids die all the time makes me wonder if she always harbored sociopathic tendencies.  If anything, maybe it was Michael/her brother what was keeping her in check.  Melanie Lynskey did great work here.

Her “kids die all the time” comment made me wonder if she lost a child to the virus. But they didn’t go there on the backstory, so I guess not. I agree that Melanie Lynskey was great in this limited role.

On 2/12/2023 at 2:17 AM, aghst said:

Did mostly sociopaths survive the fungus apocalypse?

It’s a tv/movie trope that sociopaths seem to not only survive, but thrive in dystopian worlds.

On 2/13/2023 at 2:55 PM, CrazyDog said:

I wish I know how long Ellie and Joel have been traveling. My only, minimal show complaint is that their relationship seems a bit rushed, in terms of the bonding, and trust forming already. But I imagine in show time it's been longer than what it seems as a viewer.

I’m assuming their relationship developed more as a quality vs quantity thing. They’re together all the time, they’ve experienced a lot of trauma that requires trusting each other. 

On 2/13/2023 at 4:13 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

I've been thinking about goods and such.  In the first episode one of the FEDRA guys said in Atlanta they were manufacturing bullets and pills.  So, there is some manufacturing going on.  Presumably people are still able to sew since everyone has clothing that's not too ratty.  It also seems that there is trade between the QZs and the outliers, probably raiders as well.  They have apples in KC QZ so there must be some farming somewhere

I assume that clothing is available everywhere; stores and houses are full of it in all sizes. Anyone needing a new jacket or boots could go to a Walmart or a house and find something.

As for apples, they don’t need to be farmed; they grow just fine on their own. So if the trees are there, the apples will come every year.

I’m assuming there are pockets of society scattered around that are living quietly and sustainably. These types of shows generally go city to city, but it would be easier to survive quietly in a small town or on a farm. Easier to travel that way too, I would think, take the back roads and go from small town to small town?

 

[Uncle JUICE]

29 minutes ago, Shermie said:

I assume that clothing is available everywhere; stores and houses are full of it in all sizes. Anyone needing a new jacket or boots could go to a Walmart or a house and find something

I don't think I said what you quoted, but I can sure respond: I thought this too, but there's not a 20 year supply of anything of any use to people anywhere. My conclusion is that those stores were raided within the first year, and anything that would be of any use, clothes, shoes, weapons, tools, ALLLLLLLL of that would have been taken for hoarding purposes and used as leverage. Heck, look what Bill's first move was: steal then gut his neighbor's boat, head to the local Home Depot and grab as much as you could pack, and be quick about it. That was ver,y very early in the outbreak, before anyone could really organize. Between the number of people who died and the number who were infected, early on this would have been fairly easy. Particularly if you were a person who had capacity to store these things. Initially it'd be goods for sale for money, but money collapses pretty quickly, so then they become very high value trade items. I'd be absolutely floored if any big box store had anything left on any shelf. Food would be first, but that's very limited. 

[Absurda]

35 minutes ago, Shermie said:

On 2/12/2023 at 12:17 AM, aghst said:

Did mostly sociopaths survive the fungus apocalypse?

It’s a tv/movie trope that sociopaths seem to not only survive, but thrive in dystopian worlds.

They don't have those pesky morals or ethics preventing them from doing anything and everything to survive. 

[Tyro49]

On 2/13/2023 at 10:42 PM, Capricasix said:

It’s easier for British (or Australian, or New Zealander, or Irish) actors to mimic an American accent than it is for Americans to mimic theirs.

Why?? Is there some technical reason?

[Capricasix]

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

What does his age have to do with his aim? Age = experience, so I’d expect better aim from an older person. It’s not like he’s elderly and you expect him to be shaky or have fading eyesight.

Eyesight. I think it’s fairly rare to see a 56yo without some type of corrective lens, and in a world where I don’t imagine there are too many optometrists, poor eyesight might be a significant issue. Although I may be biased, as I’ve needed glasses since the age of nine and my eyes have only gotten worse over the years 😄🤓

3 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

Why?? Is there some technical reason?

I seem to recall reading an article about it a few years ago, but I couldn’t tell you where - it’s lost in the mists of time!

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, Kathleen wasn't a good character. The whole 'timid woman snaps and becomes a monster' thing is lame. The actress was too one-note to convince me she could be in charge of as bunch of murderous rebels.

This is the first episode that I felt didn't do justice to the game, which is a real shame. They crammed too much in, with too little set up. Spending just one episode with Henry and Sam gives the show too much of a 'tragic deaths of the week' feel.

The Infected emerging just as Henry was about to be shot was an amazing sequence but far too much of a deus ex machina writing choice. The Bloater was terrifying, but the little girl Clicker was way worse.

Ellie and Sam were cute together. Seeing kids being kids, while Joel refuses to let anyone see how much that affects him.

Of course Joel wouldn't see Henry as the bad guy for betraying Kathleen's brother. We already know he puts his people before anyone else.

 

[mledawn]

45 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Yeah, Kathleen wasn't a good character. The whole 'timid woman snaps and becomes a monster' thing is lame. The actress was too one-note to convince me she could be in charge of as bunch of murderous rebels.

This is what occurred to me while Kathleen and Perry were talking in that bedroom -- how does she have such control over all of these people. She doesn't seem that spectacular. Perry often looked hesitant. Were he and the other lieutenants just leftovers from her brother's regime? They were loyal to her because of her brother's legacy?

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

This is what occurred to me while Kathleen and Perry were talking in that bedroom -- how does she have such control over all of these people. She doesn't seem that spectacular. Perry often looked hesitant. Were he and the other lieutenants just leftovers from her brother's regime? They were loyal to her because of her brother's legacy?

Curious, as I don't know the answer, bit how long do we think it was between her brothers death and present day? I think it's less than ten days. 

[Raachel2008]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:02 PM, Ilovepie said:

Lots of places in our own actual world have experienced catastrophic events and eventually they rebuild. I don't think the US would have collapsed to the level shown in this show or Walking Dead.

The difference there is that the places in our own actual world that have experienced catastrophic events were not part of an entire world that collapsed, they also and didn't have a bunch of gigantic homicidal walking fungus settled on killing people (never mind the money invested to rebuild these places). You cannot really compare them. I get your point and I agree that the show does very little to tell us why these people are living and not only surviving, but maybe that's due the game's nature.

I'm a bit late to this, but I really really really wish they hadn't given Sam cancer (leukemia?). I think it was over the top and  not realistic; let's say Sam had cancer 4 years ago, that would have been 16 years after the world ended, how did the medicine lasted? Who treated him? Did he had chemo? Radio? FEDRA provided him the entire treatment, anti-nausea medication, etc etc? Come on.

Kathleen was right when she said that kids die - and in this world they die from things we take from granted because we can 'cure' 'simple' diseases that killed children a century ago.. Like, maybe Sam had a flu, never got better, an boom, a full pneumonia getting worse and worse and Henry seeing his little brother this close to die went to FEDRA. Maybe he had a tooth abscess that got infected really fast and soon he was going into sepse. There. Way more plausible and IMO enlightening or how dire and hard is their lives.

Loved Sam. What a fantastic actor. Love all this scenes with Ellie and I felt really sorry for her. She is desperate to have a friend - the 'I'm scared of ending along' gave me chills, no way Ellie is not considering that she may be 'the last of us'. Bella really shone in those scenes and her face when Sam died... She is a terrific actress.

Kathleen was a bitch. Sorry, fuck her. Yes, FEDRA is a bunch of fascists and deserved what they got but the woman ignored what she knew - SHE KNEW - where the infected in that basement to go after Henry. She sealed the fate of the people her brother died trying to save because she was an arrogant pride vengenful bitch. And I agree with others, she would be a bitch if there were no fungus. 

I'm torn if Melanie Lynskey's acting was brilliant or if I'm prejudiced and cannot see anyone following that woman. Also, I disagree with the idead that her brother didn't accomplish anything. He was betrayed before he could do anything. Sam is healthy and ok, so we are talking at least two years post cancer. 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Raachel2008

[MJ Frog]

7 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

On 2/13/2023 at 10:42 PM, Capricasix said:

It’s easier for British (or Australian, or New Zealander, or Irish) actors to mimic an American accent than it is for Americans to mimic theirs.

Why?? Is there some technical reason?

I have heard Australian and Kiwi actors say that they are comfortable with American accents because they watch so much American TV. And I have to say, they do seem to be preternaturally good at it. I've stopped counting the number of actors I assumed were American but were actually from Australia or New Zealand.

American actors are rarely good at any accents other than American, and even then it's often not that great if it isn't their native accent. I think American actors have less exposure to non-American accents and simply have less need of them since the entertainment industry in the US is so huge.

Edited February 16, 2023 by MJ Frog
Omit unnecessary words. Or word in this case.

[Ilovepie]

42 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Kathleen was a bitch. Sorry, fuck her. Yes, FEDRA is a bunch of fascists and deserved what they got but the woman ignored what she knew - SHE KNEW - where the infected in that basement to go after Henry. She sealed the fate of the people her brother died trying to save because she was an arrogant pride vengenful bitch. And I agree with others, she would be a bitch if there were no fungus. 

I'm torn if Melanie Lynskey's acting was brilliant or if I'm prejudiced and cannot see anyone following that woman.

You are not wrong about Kathleen, but her muscle guy (I don't know his name) spelled out exactly why they were still following her - she was the reason they were able to organize and overthrow FEDRA - something her brother could never accomplish. For that job, being an arrogant vengeful bitch was useful. In the aftermath, not so much......

[DigitalCount]

2 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

You are not wrong about Kathleen, but her muscle guy (I don't know his name) spelled out exactly why they were still following her - she was the reason they were able to organize and overthrow FEDRA - something her brother could never accomplish. For that job, being an arrogant vengeful bitch was useful. In the aftermath, not so much......

I think his name was Perry. And yeah, they followed the person who got them results. Michael was probably too decent a person to order the acts that needed to be done to overthrow FEDRA. Once he died, he made a perfectly good martyr that the people were willing to avenge, and Kathleen was willing to commit atrocities in his name. That was the impression I got, at least.

[Eliza422]

On 2/11/2023 at 7:04 AM, Haleth said:

This show is going to kill me.  First Tess, then Bill and Frank (although that was more poignant than devastating), and now Henry and Sam.  Note to self: do not get attached to anyone.

Yikes, the folks in downtown KC have no idea what's coming for them.  That giant monster was scary.

Yeah, when I saw the horde turn and and start running I was thinking poor old KC is doomed!

[Uncle JUICE]

13 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm a bit late to this, but I really really really wish they hadn't given Sam cancer (leukemia?). I think it was over the top and  not realistic; let's say Sam had cancer 4 years ago, that would have been 16 years after the world ended, how did the medicine lasted? Who treated him? Did he had chemo? Radio? FEDRA provided him the entire treatment, anti-nausea medication, etc etc? Come on.

Kathleen was right when she said that kids die - and in this world they die from things we take from granted because we can 'cure' 'simple' diseases that killed children a century ago.. Like, maybe Sam had a flu, never got better, an boom, a full pneumonia getting worse and worse and Henry seeing his little brother this close to die went to FEDRA. Maybe he had a tooth abscess that got infected really fast and soon he was going into sepse. There. Way more plausible and IMO enlightening or how dire and hard is their lives.

What a frigging great point. I kind of glossed over this on my first watch, but on the two repeated viewings I've done (THERE ARE NO SPORTS I LIKE ON, don't judge me :)), it kind of bugged me too, and led to my "timeline" question on Kathleen. If Sam had leukemia two weeks ago, he looks pretty good now. But I'll forgive it!

13 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Also, I disagree with the idead that her brother didn't accomplish anything. He was betrayed before he could do anything. Sam is healthy and ok, so we are talking at least two years post cancer. 

So you think that Sam's cancer and the betrayal of Kathleen's brother was two years old? I didn't get that impression from the show. FEDRA doesn't strike me as a patient organization, I mean they're shooting infected on test results (How many Ellies has this cost humanity?). Plus the KC FEDRA apparently had a particularly brutal reputation among the QZ's. Seemed to me they'd be the kind of organization to take swift and decisive (if not the wisest) action in the face of resistance like that. 

[khyber]

14 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I have heard Australian and Kiwi actors say that they are comfortable with American accents because they watch so much American TV. And I have to say, they do seem to be preternaturally good at it. I've stopped counting the number of actors I assumed were American but were actually from Australia or New Zealand.

American actors are rarely good at any accents other than American, and even then it's often not that great if it isn't their native accent. I think American actors have less exposure to non-American accents and simply have less need of them since the entertainment industry in the US is so huge.

Its funny when you watch something and a word just sounds off in some way. Straight to IMDB and I find out the person is Aussie or English, etc. Its amazing how good some people are.  My best catch was watching a show and in one scene a bunch of guys were at the beach throwing a football around. Very quickly I decided that 2 of the guys could not be American because they didn't look natural catching and throwing the ball. Sure enough, they were from other countries and had been doing great American accents.

[Danny Franks]

16 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

You are not wrong about Kathleen, but her muscle guy (I don't know his name) spelled out exactly why they were still following her - she was the reason they were able to organize and overthrow FEDRA - something her brother could never accomplish. For that job, being an arrogant vengeful bitch was useful. In the aftermath, not so much......

They never actually showed us how she did that, or why anyone followed her in the first place. Sure, her brother was a great man, but she was absolutely not a great woman. 

They seem to have wanted it both ways - to give the denizens of Kansas City some pathos and depth, but also not to spend enough time making people actually care about them. They'd have been better off saving fifteen minutes of screen time and giving it to the four characters we actually care about instead.

The end result is the same - people are happy when Kathleen is killed by the Clicker kid, people are awed at Original Tommy being beheaded by the Bloater. Why did I need to see them hanging out in Kathleen's childhood bedroom?

Something else about this episode - Bella Ramsey was absolutely fantastic in it. Warm and supportive with Sam, funny and snarky with Joel and Henry, and then absolutely heartbreaking at the end. Her scream/grunt of shock when Henry shot himself was amazing.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Danny Franks

[Ilovepie]

25 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

The end result is the same - people are happy when Kathleen is killed by the Clicker kid, people are awed at Original Tommy being beheaded by the Bloater. Why did I need to see them hanging out in Kathleen's childhood bedroom?

Actually, I think that bedroom scene was important. That is where we learn why they were all following this unhinged bitch. Without that scene, it really makes no sense why they would do whatever she said when the thing that makes most sense is to deal with that pulsing cordyceps floor and not go on a wild goose chase looking for two kids that are really no actual threat to the community at large at that point.

I also think that scene gives Kathleen a little more gravitas, so to speak. To see her ruminating on her choices makes her less of a psychotic lunatic and more just a hurt woman who has turned bitter and chosen revenge over all else in the wake of the nightmare her life has become. For me, it's little scenes like this that make this show so good - they are doing such a great job making these characters come to life in such a small window of time.

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

So you think that Sam's cancer and the betrayal of Kathleen's brother was two years old? I didn't get that impression from the show.

A backstory that spans several years is definitely the impression I got as well. But that may be because I think the weakness of most serial dramas is that not enough time is allowed to pass in the story (it drove me crazy that Game of Thrones was always dating every major event to a "fortnight" after the last major event!), so I always default to assuming large amounts of time have passed over small amounts of time.

Quote

FEDRA doesn't strike me as a patient organization, I mean they're shooting infected on test results (How many Ellies has this cost humanity?). Plus the KC FEDRA apparently had a particularly brutal reputation among the QZ's. Seemed to me they'd be the kind of organization to take swift and decisive (if not the wisest) action in the face of resistance like that.

How do we know that they didn't? If Sam got sick a few years ago, I'm assuming Henry sold out the resistance and FEDRA killed Michael a few years ago as well. I don't think we have reason to assume that any of that happened in the immediate past either. And one assumes that it would've taken time for the resistance to regroup after the death of their charismatic leader.

The one backstory question I'm still unsure about, though: Are we meant to think that Henry is deaf because of his leukemia? On the one hand, hearing loss is apparently a fairly common symptom of the disease. On the other, Sam doesn't come across as someone who only recently lost his hearing, and he and Henry are fluent in ASL despite growing up in a postapocalyptic society, which might imply that it's an inherited condition and they have/had other Deaf family members.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Dev F

[Uncle JUICE]

36 minutes ago, Dev F said:

How do we know that they didn't? If Sam got sick a few years ago, I'm assuming Henry sold out the resistance and FEDRA killed Michael a few years ago as well. 

I guess I presumed that Henry telling Joel that FEDRA was in KC up until about ten days ago meant that Kathleen's revolution happened around that time, and again based on presumption (so, based on not a lot), I didn't figure that Michael was the only person they would have moved to eliminate via collaborator information. Given their rep and all, Michael seems to me a 'decapitative' strike, which would have been followed by a swift mop up operation, given the small band of people you're talking about in the 'resistance.' I guess I have the opposite slant on the "time" that you do: I figure everything in a world like this has to happen on a super-accelerated timeline because of the constant mortal danger around every corner. In any case, interesting to read a different take on it. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I guess I presumed that Henry telling Joel that FEDRA was in KC up until about ten days ago meant that Kathleen's revolution happened around that time, and again based on presumption (so, based on not a lot), I didn't figure that Michael was the only person they would have moved to eliminate via collaborator information. Given their rep and all, Michael seems to me a 'decapitative' strike, which would have been followed by a swift mop up operation, given the small band of people you're talking about in the 'resistance.'

Oh, Kathleen's revolution canonically takes place ten days before the present-day events of the story. I guess I just assumed that there was probably a period of years between that event and Michael's death—precisely because his death would've shattered the resistance as it was then constituted and it would've taken a long time for Kathleen to whip it back into fighting shape.

And the fact that the resistance now seems like such a small band could just be a function of the fact that FEDRA did wipe out most of them after Michael's death. Perry could be one of the few in the inner circle who escaped apprehension, and Kathleen could've survived because FEDRA thought she was just a harmless kindergarten teacher or whatever.

[Anela]

On 2/13/2023 at 10:42 PM, Capricasix said:

It’s easier for British (or Australian, or New Zealander, or Irish) actors to mimic an American accent than it is for Americans to mimic theirs.

It's weird, and different for me: I started out with an American accent, when I was a toddler. parents split, mum took us kids back to England. I eventually got an English accent. parents got back together, a decade later, and decide to move us back over here to the States. I can't do an American accent to save my life. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Anela

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:51 AM, Shermie said:

I'm assuming there are pockets of society scattered around that are living quietly and sustainably. These types of shows generally go city to city, but it would be easier to survive quietly in a small town or on a farm. 

 

Would it be easier though? Because I think a farm would be pretty hard to secure. And once you have a big enough population in your community it's going to attract infected. Even when Bill was by himself mushroom people were showing up outside his fence. I get the sense that people didn't move to QZ's because they are nice, they did it because they have big walls with guards with guns keeping the infected out.

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

Oh, Kathleen's revolution canonically takes place ten days before the present-day events of the story. I guess I just assumed that there was probably a period of years between that event and Michael's death—precisely because his death would've shattered the resistance as it was then constituted and it would've taken a long time for Kathleen to whip it back into fighting shape.

There’s a significant degree of merit to your description, but I see one big issue with it - the notion this batshit psycho UberKaren megabitch (aka Kathleen) could maintain and leverage the loyalty she stole from her brother in the resistance power vacuum following Michael’s death for any significant degree of time.  Maybe it’s simply a tribute to just how well Melanie Lynskey can play a sociopath (go Rose!), but I simply don’t see how her Animal Farm-ish antics against Henry (and, I’m guessing one could safely assume, FEDRA in general) would keep things together for more than a year, tops.

[Dev F]

19 minutes ago, Nashville said:

There’s a significant degree of merit to your description, but I see one big issue with it - the notion this batshit psycho UberKaren megabitch (aka Kathleen) could maintain and leverage the loyalty she stole from her brother in the resistance power vacuum following Michael’s death for any significant degree of time.  Maybe it’s simply a tribute to just how well Melanie Lynskey can play a sociopath (go Rose!), but I simply don’t see how her Animal Farm-ish antics against Henry (and, I’m guessing one could safely assume, FEDRA in general) would keep things together for more than a year, tops.

I think that's part of the irony of the character, actually: her shtick would've worked like gangbusters right up until the moment she actually accomplished something. When you're being ground under by FEDRA every day, "We'll overthrow these motherfuckers and kill every filthy rat that licked their boots!" sounds pretty darn good. It's only after the resistance has taken power that you start to wonder, "Waitaminnit, maybe someone should make sure we don't starve or get torn apart by fungus zombies instead of chasing after every remaining collaborator."

[UnknownK]

On 2/13/2023 at 3:41 PM, Absurda said:

I've been thinking about goods and such.  In the first episode one of the FEDRA guys said in Atlanta they were manufacturing bullets and pills.  So, there is some manufacturing going on.  Presumably people are still able to sew since everyone has clothing that's not too ratty.  It also seems that there is trade between the QZs and the outliers, probably raiders as well.  They have apples in KC QZ so there must be some farming somewhere and trade with the QZ.  Unless they have city garden plots.  They also have beef jerky and, at one point, Ellie had a chicken sandwich so there's some sort of animal farming and meat production still going on.  There may be some form of rebuilding and farming going on in places, we're just not seeing it because it's not part of the story.

 

I call bullshit on any manufacturing going on 20 years after the event took place.

Sure, any factory that made bullets might still be standing, but all the key ingredients would have been mined and made elsewhere (most likely other areas of the country or overseas) and shipped in using JIT (just in time) ordering, so you don't have massive stockpiles sitting around. Spare parts to keep things running would be non-existent along with people trained on maintaining and running the line. Most factories are robotic using a shitload of power which no longer exists plus the workers are HIGHLY specialized. Most factories have low educated line workers who do the grunt work of moving and packaging stuff while QC people monitor the line and have specialists come in to fix things as needed.

If that infection really happened, you would have rationing from day three followed by massive starvation and die off. Every facet of modern living would be gone, and survivors would be limited to small groups far apart from each other growing what they can to survive while dying very young from everything we don't even think about today (try Africa during famine and disease but with no outside help at all).