S08.E01: Deep Breath

[magdalene]

I like Peter Capaldi's Doctor. The episode was like all the regeneration episodes I have seen - confusing, bewildering. By the end Capaldi was the Doctor to me. I'll accept him until the next version comes along.

 

The Ninth Doctor was my first Doctor and he really wowed me and my favorite companion is Donna Noble. I had to learn the hard way that the more you love someone on this show the more you get your heart broken eventually. And that "eventually" can come sooner than you think.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I liked Capaldi. I think BBC under any regime has been pretty good at picking Doctors. Considering Moffat wanted an "older" Doctor when he was casting for Eleven I wonder if Capaldi's Doctor would have been what we would have seen if Matt Smith hadn't been hired. 

 

The writing was a bit of a let-down. No post-regeneration story has been that good IMO so I wasn't expecting much (the only one I can really remember seeing and liking was Jon Pertwee's first appearance - but even there we're not sure how long it was before he became Three). Writers seem to want to the Doctor to become nuttier and nuttier with every regeneration (although the "War Doctor"/Young John Hurt seemed perfectly sane in the one second we got of him in Night of the Doctor). 

 

Wait...wait...were they trying to tell us that the Doctor is old? And there's no flirting? And Vastra and Jenny are (gasp) married?! Why, those slid right past me. Damn. That Moffat. Master of Subtlety he is. Stephen "Subtle" Moffat, they call him.

 

 

I agree. Moffat wants to be one of the great Who writers (think Robert Holmes or even Davies) but he has all the subtlety of a brick. "I'm not your boyfriend", "he's old", "we're married". Again and again. Tell us things we don't already know. Even the kid viewers of the show don't have to be told this stuff more than once.

 

Also, Clara shouldn't have had a problem with an older Doctor.  Even when Matt Smith's Doctor grew old in Christmas, you could tell she still loved him.

 

I had a problem with this too. Despite telling Vastra she doesn't judge based on age, Clara just took look one look and said "Ewww, old and grey". It takes a literal last minute phone call from the former Doctor to get her to accept him. And she clearly did fancy him. A LOT. It was about as blatant (and remembering we're talking Stephen "No Subtlety" Moffat here) as its been with any Doctor/Companion outside of Rose (and more than Martha, who stayed and then left Ten because of her feelings). And despite knowing of his regenerations (even asking Gallifrey to make it happen) the minute he sees he's not young anymore (forget the face) she's ready to move on. If it wasn't for the fact that she's supposed to be our audience surrogate and we're supposed to empathise with HER (oh noes the Doctor old! - we need Matt Smith to tell us its going to be OK) it would be an interesting character flaw. I agree she showed more individual character than she ever has (outside of Oswin the Dalek or Clara the Victorian Governess who I will always insist would have been much more interesting companions than the "Impossible Girl" cipher we got).

 

Vastra annoys me and I am not sure why they have to keep on bringing back her and her group.  Why can't they bring back someone who is entertaining like Jack Harkness?

 

I like Jenny and Strax.  But I'm getting a little tired of Vastra as currently written. She's smug, superior, arrogant and always seemingly right. She's like the Doctor without his flaws. She is in effect written as the kind of character classic Who (and non-Moffat writers) would point out as a suspicious or not a character the audience should like. I also wish the BBC would give Moffat his own Victorian spin-off so he didn't have to keep shoehorning the group into different stories.

 

How long have they supposedly known the Doctor anyway to be so cool with his regeneration? Didn't they first appear in "A Good Man Goes to War"? Would they even know the Doctor with any other face?

 

The new titles and new Tardis were a nice touch though, as was Capaldi's name-dropping Amy, the scarf he used to wear as 4 and the round things that used to cover classic Tardis walls.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[GreyBunny]

The relationship between Vastra and Jenny doesn't bother me.  They're comedy relief to some degree so some things will be exaggerated or absurd for laughs.

 

Their relationship reminds me a little of Sherlock and John's  - Sherlock is the dominant one, he's rude, he's exasperating, he can be insulting, but it's clear he cares a great deal about John.  Vastra can be obnoxious but she loves Jenny.  And Jenny isn't a shrinking violet.  She's confident, she's a warrior, she's feisty, she argues back.  When Vastra hisses at her she stands her ground and glares back, and when Vastra got flirty with someone else, Jenny smacked her and said, "Married!"  Vastra deflated and took her lumps from her wife.

 

I like them a lot.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Anyone think the Doctor "chose" to be Scottish in honor of Amy? To my sorrow he seemed to have great affection for that companion so I wonder???

Either that or Jamie, whom Two was very fond of before forced to separate.

 

 

I don't remember Jack having a time ship. He used a vortex manipulator to travel through time. The spaceship he had when we first met him was stolen from the Chula.

When the Doctor was chasing the Chula ambulance (aka space junk), he mentioned that they were crossing time lines, and Jack didn't have his vortex manipulator yet, so the Chula ship he was captaining was presumably a time ship also.

[benteen]

I don't think Clara would ever have been able to understand the dinosaur, regardless of the Doctor's regeneration - he's claimed to understand cats, horses and babies previously, without the people with him being able to similarly translate. Frankly, this whole 'I speak cat/horse/baby/dinosaur' business is one of those little Moffat quirks I really dislike - a joke taken way too far.

 

That said, how the TARDIS translation facility does or doesn't work is another of those details that's been shockingly inconsistent over the decades! Inconsistency is simply part and parcel of Doctor Who. :)

 

Edit - I don't remember Jack having a time ship. He used a vortex manipulator to travel through time. The spaceship he had when we first met him was stolen from the Chula.

 

Actually, it's Vastra who should be able to speak dinosaur when you think about it.

[ohjoy]

I had to rewatch the episode to catch some of the quick little moments I missed the first time around, and in doing so I found this little nugget:

When the Doctor has come back for Clara in the basement, and he appears to actually have plan for once (before they are once again surrounded by fleshy robots), he tells Clara to "say the word." When she asks what word, he says that "they" (Vastra & Jenny) would never have sent her there without one, at which point she her electronic brooch and they both say "Geronimo" (cuing Vastra & Jenny rippling down from the restaurant).

The thing is, the Doctor had just left Clara all alone with half-faced robot man (a seemingly cold and heartless move). And she spent a long, scary while holding her breath until her lungs gave out, and then stalling and crying while the robot man threatened to kill her. But if the electronic brooch and the safe word are any indication, she supposedly could have been rescued by Vastra & Jenny at any point after walking through the restaurant door. But she never took that option. Instead she waited for the Doctor. Guess even if she didn't know him anymore, she hadn't completely lost faith in him either.

(And since the Doctor she would not have shown up by herself without Vastra & Jenny attempting to protect her, him leaving her for so long is not nearly as heartless as some might have thought it seemed at the time.)

Anyway, I loved everything with Twelve & Clara from the moment he showed up in the restaurant. Can't wait to see more of their interaction.

Edited August 26, 2014 by RandomMe

[EC Amber]

...and the round things that used to cover classic Tardis walls.

 

Oh!! ROUND things!! 

I swore he said BROWN things and I just couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about. 

[wayne67]

I don't know if this is something I should ignore as pointless nitpick or whether someone on here could explain it to me...

 

The dying Matt Smith goes inside after being filled with regeneration energy somehow from the Time Lord Council who last we saw were trying to bring the Time War to Earth but whatever.. so... Clara sees the phone off the receiver OUTSIDE the phone box (in a flashback apparently)... while Matt holds an old style phone INSIDE the box... to make a call to Clara in her future time line to tell her to not abandon him because he looks different.

 

Which brings to mind several questions . Matt Smith took time off from dying to make a phone call to Clara from Trenzalore his maybe grave/death site from that time stream episode... which timey wimey wibbly wobbling lazy show runners...

 

 Question 1 why was the outside phone off the hook when he was making a call inside the box ? Question 2 Didn't they make a big deal throughout a few episodes about how the phone box wasn't actually capable of receiving or making calls with the outside phone? Question 3 what happened to all the super charged mobile phones he has lying around so he can contact Martha and Unit and Winston Churchill? Question 4 how did the Doctor know the exact time Clara would be done fighting off clockwork robots who had a time ship stuck in the earth to call her to tell her to not abandon the new guy even though I don't think any other companion have ever wanted to abandon him after the initial confusion over him changing faces Question 5 Is anyone else losing track of the amount of space ships that seem to crash into Earth to loiter around trying to repair stuff with murder?(Cylons, clock work cyborgs, Arachnos, The time ship in the episode with the non existent 2nd floor) Question 6 Perhaps it might be a good idea to offer maintenance for all these ships Torchwood? 

Edited August 26, 2014 by wayne67

[SistaLadybug]

What doesn't make sense in my head is Vastra saying that The Doctor changed his face to Matt Smith's because he wanted to be accepted and prove attractive to Clara.  But ... er ... um ... Eleven acquired that face way before Clara and even before meeting Amy Pond.  How in the world was he making himself look young for Clara?  And if it was just for girls in general, he had been there and done that with Ten's face when he snagged Rose Tyler. 

[tv-talk]

Sista- imho the underlying theme of the whole episode was Moffat stating to younger and (i'll assume) mainly female fans that the Doctor Who they knew and loved is gone. I can't recall any other regeneration where it was such an awful issue for the Companion nor the notion that the Doctor somehow chooses his face to meet the Companions needs (which is just a horrible elevation of Companion status in general, I mean the Doctor choosing his face based on a Companion?) So a lot of what happened in this episode was really Moffat hamfistedly speaking directly to the audience without concern for how the Doctor would/should actually behave. I think the series is being reset to more closely match what it was aside from 10 and 11. Hopefully Moffat has said his piece and forthcoming episodes don't deal in these things.

[Llywela]

What doesn't make sense in my head is Vastra saying that The Doctor changed his face to Matt Smith's because he wanted to be accepted and prove attractive to Clara.  But ... er ... um ... Eleven acquired that face way before Clara and even before meeting Amy Pond.  How in the world was he making himself look young for Clara?  And if it was just for girls in general, he had been there and done that with Ten's face when he snagged Rose Tyler. 

I disagree with a lot of Steven Moffat's vision of Doctor Who. I think he was using all that to play into the same kind of character note we saw when River Song told Amy never to let the Doctor see her get old or be hurt because he wouldn't cope. Now, to me, all that said was that River really didn't know the Doctor as well as she thought she did, because the Doctor she was describing there wasn't a Doctor I recognised at all. Since when has he ever cared about anything like that? But Moffat apparently sees it as genuine psychology, for the 11th Doctor, at least - he had a young face because he wanted to present a young, carefree image to the universe, maybe trying to fool himself as much as anyone else. Now, this new Doctor is over that, and his appearance reflects this.

 

I dunno. I think that's what Moffat is shooting for, anyway. It doesn't really jibe with the character I grew up with, but both Davies and Moffat have struggled to re-shape the character of the Doctor for a modern age that expects and demands emotional story arcs for its characters, and both have chosen routes I find a poor fit for the Doctor.

[ohjoy]

I don't know if this is something I should ignore as pointless nitpick or whether someone on here could explain it to me...

 

The dying Matt Smith goes inside after being filled with regeneration energy somehow from the Time Lord Council who last we saw were trying to bring the Time War to Earth but whatever.. so... Clara sees the phone off the receiver OUTSIDE the phone box (in a flashback apparently)... while Matt holds an old style phone INSIDE the box... to make a call to Clara in her future time line to tell her to not abandon him because he looks different.

 

Which brings to mind several questions . Matt Smith took time off from dying to make a phone call to Clara from Trenzalore his maybe grave/death site from that time stream episode... which timey wimey wibbly wobbling lazy show runners...

 

 Question 1 why was the outside phone off the hook when he was making a call inside the box ? Question 2 Didn't they make a big deal throughout a few episodes about how the phone box wasn't actually capable of receiving or making calls with the outside phone? Question 3 what happened to all the super charged mobile phones he has lying around so he can contact Martha and Unit and Winston Churchill? Question 4 how did the Doctor know the exact time Clara would be done fighting off clockwork robots who had a time ship stuck in the earth to call her to tell her to not abandon the new guy even though I don't think any other companion have ever wanted to abandon him after the initial confusion over him changing faces

 

Questions 1 & 2: The big deal they made in TTOTD was that he needed to patch the outside call box back to the inside. They show him at the beginning of the ep having to answer Clara's call from the outside call box, when he tells Handles to remind him to patch it back through to the console inside. Which never happened (at least not onscreen). So at the end of TTOTD when she hangs up the outside phone, that makes sense. At the end of DB when Eleven is shown talking on the phone while inside, it makes less sense. I can fanwank that he pulled the outside phone inside the TARDIS so he could talk in private, since that's what he did at the beginning of TTOTD when Clara called and he was too busy to properly hear her request for him to be her Christmas boyfriend ("I never thought you were [my boyfriend]" my eye...), but I think it's more likely that when they shot that scene they remembered that he was on the phone but kind of forgot which phone it was.

 

Which is why, much as I love Matt and appreciated the continuity of his phone call appearance, I wish we hadn't actually seen him talking on the phone with her. I guess they had to prove that it was Eleven encouraging her not to abandon him in his regeneration, but since I was slightly distracted by the phone location (and also by trying to figure out if that was still the same wig he was wearing when TTOTD was shot), I probably could have gone on his voice alone.

 

Question 4: I don't think he did plan it specifically. I think he called essentially two or three days later on her phone (given the wibbly wobbly crashing about, plus two nights in Victorian London). I took it as a fortuitous guess rather than any accurate calculation on the part of a Time Lord in the first throws of regeneration.

 

Question 3: I assumed that cell phone was destroyed when the TARDIS crashed in Amelia pond's garden. Seems like all those calls go directly to the TARDIS now.

[Sharpie66]

I took the phone call to mean that one of the last things that 11 did was to finally follow Handles' reminder to patch the outside line to an inside line, which just so happened to have the same type of handset as the outdoor one, right before calling Clara and then regenerating.

[ohjoy]

I took the phone call to mean that one of the last things that 11 did was to finally follow Handles' reminder to patch the outside line to an inside line, which just so happened to have the same type of handset as the outdoor one, right before calling Clara and then regenerating.

 

Aw, your headcanon is so much more endearing and considerate than mine. I like it. Handles FTW. :-)

[Dirtybubble]

I agree. Moffat wants to be one of the great Who writers (think Robert Holmes or even Davies) but he has all the subtlety of a brick. "I'm not your boyfriend", "he's old", "we're married". Again and again. Tell us things we don't already know. Even the kid viewers of the show don't have to be told this stuff more than once.

Yeah it was a bit heavy handed but I feel that was the setup for Clara's storyline.  It appears this season she is going to struggle with who the doctor is now.  She came across as a bit vain when she was going on and on about how the doctor has regenerated into an older man but then again she isn't really my favorite companion so we'll see how it goes.

 

Count me in on the Jenny, Strax, and even Vastra love train.  Yeah Vastra does come across as a bit bossy to Jenny but she's very smart and does seem to have a kind heart.  Meh maybe that's just her race?  I would say have all 3 of them in more Dr. Who episodes but I fear I would grow tired of them. 

 

I wonder if River Song will be back this season.  Her & the doctor's relationship/time line always confused me so I don't know if she is dead, alive, or in jail but if she can time travel as he why not.

 

[tv echo]

I was going to put this in the media thread, but decided to put it here instead because it's very specific to the "Deep Breath" episode...

 

Steven Moffat explains why he brought those particular monsters back to be Capaldi's first Who foes
Nathalie Caron Monday, August 25, 2014 - 7:40pm

http://www.blastr.com/2014-8-25/steven-moffat-explains-why-he-brought-those-particular-monsters-back-be-capaldis-first-who

[tarotx]

The Doctor's youthful appearance wasn't for Clara or a companion in General but to be accepted in the worlds The Doctor likes to travel in most. Instead of choosing a face for reasons he would want (he wants to be ginger ;) ) he chooses based on what he thinks will be accepted best. And yes these characters were being used to talk to the audience.. A lot of the talk since Peter Capaldi was announced as Doctor has been about his age. Though a large chunk of that wasn't ageism there has been quite an undercurrent that at least feels like it's rooted in the prejudge. I think it needed to be addressed. There is also the kids who have felt the doctor is a young man. It seems they haven't really grasp the concept that our beloved character is an ancient Alien. This isn't just about how young the doctor has looked but how "human" and now "modern though quirky" the New Who Doctors seem at times. And there are the fan girls who like to dream about a potential love affair between themselves (or a surrogate of themselves) and the doctor. All of those people were addressed. And they were each directed to at different times so it was a dominate theme of the episode which at times felt like being hit over the head with a book of it. I think it was a bit much though I still enjoyed the episode. 

 

I'm sure it didn't help that a lot of people seem to hate Vastra and she was the character used to show moral compassion. I love me some Vastra but she has her own flaws so I can see how that just would make everybody roll their eyes. She's a Sherlock character and her actress is great so I love her and since everybody's flawed we have to get our lessons from the flawed.

 

I really enjoyed Peter Capaldi as The doctor and can't wait for for episodes. I'm super tempted to watch the B&W copies of episodes 2&3. I'm a huge huge fan of 9, I loved The war doctor in his short stint(1 episode&Mini?) and I adore 11's different take of the doctor as well. Tennant is my least favorite of the New who doctors but I enjoyed him as well. My love for 9 surely plays a part in me not accepting 10 as well. Mostly I just didn't like how he treated Martha. I hated their companion dynamics. 

 

I'm actually really new to Who since I started at the beginning of the year and watched everything I can find in these 8ish months. I'm sure that affects how I'm viewing the show as well.

 

I feel like Clara's character has been fleshed out bit and I'm looking forward to get to know her as well.

 

And as for Miss Missy Poppins, her calling the Doctor Boyfriend when we have been hit over the head with how audience surrogate Clara isn't the Doctor's Girl, has me thinking about how this season is going to be about how when our perception of things can really affect things. Our perception of ourselves and others and how that perception affects us and the people in our lives. And how our perception can affect our enjoyment of the show.

[tarotx]

I got that he was using this enemy to show the doctor has changed so much is any of "him" left. Perception is such an important part of how we go at life.

 

Some comments there are thinking Missy is an older version of Clara (because of the Boyfriend thing) or a regen of the TARDIS and the doctor was able to download the ClockDroid into the TARDIS mainframe. And of course there are also ones about how she might be the Master as a female to try and get us ready for a Female Doctor. I love theories <3

I was going to put this in the media thread, but decided to put it here instead because it's very specific to the "Deep Breath" episode...

 

Steven Moffat explains why he brought those particular monsters back to be Capaldi's first Who foes
Nathalie Caron Monday, August 25, 2014 - 7:40pm

http://www.blastr.com/2014-8-25/steven-moffat-explains-why-he-brought-those-particular-monsters-back-be-capaldis-first-who

[drmka9]

But Moffat apparently sees it as genuine psychology, for the 11th Doctor, at least - he had a young face because he wanted to present a young, carefree image to the universe, maybe trying to fool himself as much as anyone else. Now, this new Doctor is over that, and his appearance reflects this.

 

I think a lot of that is a holdover from 'The Day of the Doctor.' The War Doctor mentioned a few times that 10 and 11 were silly and afraid of acting mature or like grownups. Even though the Doctor doesn't technically remember those events, some sort of closure was attained and he now feels free to be older or more responsible. 

[supposebly]

The article addresses something I keep forgetting and I think in the viewer's perception, it's a tough thing to remember. Ten's adventures have been so long ago for the Doctor. It's more than half his life ago that these things happened. Also, all his other regenerations were much much shorter. So, for most of his life, he's been Eleven. All the other regenerations were much shorter.

 

I do think it will be important to keep this in mind. It's hard because for the viewer, it doesn't feel that long.

[tarotx]

Yep and The Doctor was stationary for many of those years on Trenzalore. He really is a whole new person. Both because of the new Regen cycle and because his lifestyle changed on Trenzalore and because he has a new old (both literally and figuratively) face. On Trenzalore The Doctor didn't run and hide. He stayed and defended for a many and many year. Almost half his life. There is so much that can be done with this story. The Doctor now is really in the same boat as the Master during season 3. I can see why that could be where they are going with this story.

 

Also The Doctor was away from the TARDIS for Years. She not as long of course but I can see how the TARDIS could become jealous that the Doctor chose a different path from her. So I guess I can see why some might think Missy is the TARDIS.

The article addresses something I keep forgetting and I think in the viewer's perception, it's a tough thing to remember. Ten's adventures have been so long ago for the Doctor. It's more than half his life ago that these things happened. Also, all his other regenerations were much much shorter. So, for most of his life, he's been Eleven. All the other regenerations were much shorter.

 

I do think it will be important to keep this in mind. It's hard because for the viewer, it doesn't feel that long.

Edited August 26, 2014 by tarotx

[Llywela]

I think a lot of that is a holdover from 'The Day of the Doctor.' The War Doctor mentioned a few times that 10 and 11 were silly and afraid of acting mature or like grownups. Even though the Doctor doesn't technically remember those events, some sort of closure was attained and he now feels free to be older or more responsible. 

This particular Doctor should remember those events, surely - the 'oldest' Doctor present retains the events of a multi-Doctor adventure, it's only the younger ones who don't, because of paradox. Or something like that.

 

I haven't forgotten that the 11th Doctor had such an immense lifespan, spent mostly on Trenzalore. I don't like it, but I haven't forgotten it. I'm pretty sure a bunch of other Doctors are meant to have had much longer lives than seen on-screen, though (2nd Doctor claimed to be in his 400s, 4th was in his 700s, 7th was in his 900s). This is why his age is impossible to pin down and always wrong!

[tarotx]

I don't see how those ages mean the Doctor's age is always wrong? 8, the war doctor and 9 could easily been only around for a short amount of time. Though there does seem to be about 100 years off when 9 Started. 

[Gentian root]

tarotx, the Doctor was away from the TARDIS for centuries from his perspective, but not so long from the TARDIS' pov.

And Handles became the longest-running "companion" during the those Trenzalore/Christmas years (unless Susan and he spent centuries together before 1963).

[Llywela]

I don't see how those ages mean the Doctor's age is always wrong? 8, the war doctor and 9 could easily been only around for a short amount of time. Though there does seem to be about 100 years off when 9 Started. 

Well, the New Who ages have certainly always been wrong. The War Doctor was around long enough for the young man we saw post-regeneration to turn into the old man we met in Day of the Doctor.

 

[tarotx]

I know the Doctor wasn't away from the TARDIS for a long time. I mentioned it in my post though I guess I didn't clarify it enough when I said years. It's just that I think the Tardis could know that Doctor choose to stay away from her. The Doctor not only sent Clara home but by extension the Tardis as well. And the Tardis has this ability to get into his and everybody traveling on her's head. With the right writers it could be a great story arc. Imo...

tarotx, the Doctor was away from the TARDIS for centuries from his perspective, but not so long from the TARDIS' pov.

And Handles became the longest-running "companion" during the those Trenzalore/Christmas years (unless Susan and he spent centuries together before 1963).

Edited August 26, 2014 by tarotx

[tarotx]

I guess but we don't know much about the War Doctor and why he aged. That was during the time war and who knows everything that was happening. Though I did read something that said he fought the time war for 400 years or that is how long the time war lasted. But I can fan wonk that The Doctor just doesn't count those years since he doesn't count the War doctor :p

Well, the New Who ages have certainly always been wrong. The War Doctor was around long enough for the young man we saw post-regeneration to turn into the old man we met in Day of the Doctor.

[proserpina65]

 

The show started in 1963, for Boomers and older folks, and for crying out loud Moffat, they're not ALL dead yet.  To many of them, Capaldi is just a pup.  I got a little insulted at the whole "Gosh this face is soooooo old" theme. Does Moffat think his viewers are a bunch of Kardashian-wannabes who think you should get botox at age 25? So people get lines on their faces.

It's not Steven Moffat who thinks that - it was every damned reporter/columnist/blogger ( or so it seemed to me) who wrote something about Peter Capaldi's age after his casting was announced.  The comments about the new Doctor's age were jabs at those various writers, not the viewers, imho.

 

As for me, I think Capaldi is going to be a brilliant Doctor.  I loved how his Doctor was so unsettled after the regeneration.  Unformed, even, in a way.  It struck me as a throwback (or homage, if you will) to the transition from Tom Baker to Peter Davison, with the Fifth Doctor actually taking more than one episode to settle in.  I liked the use of the clockwork androids from Girl in the Fireplace, the new titles, the revamped theme, the Paternoster gang (although a little of them does tend to go a long way), and most especially, the firm nail in the coffin of the Doctor as Clara's boyfriend - which was exactly how she thought of Eleven, all her protests to the contrary.  In fact, Clara was the only less the great aspect of the episode for me, and even she bugged less than she had over the last few episodes with Eleven.  So I'm looking forward to seeing where Twelve takes us.  (Is it too much to hope he bumps into Donna and makes her remember her time with the Doctor?  Without burning up her brain, of course.)

 

[tarotx]

Well the Doctor had a many year to think of a way to fix Donna's brain overload. I mean if the show wants to go there. Anything is possible now. It's a new beginning. They could have always done so I guess since it's not real life but with time always makes things possible. I would love the new doctor to hang with Donna for at least a day even if she doesn't know he's the Doctor and their history. But I guess that is for another thread.

 

It's not Steven Moffat who thinks that - it was every damned reporter/columnist/blogger ( or so it seemed to me) who wrote something about Peter Capaldi's age after his casting was announced.  The comments about the new Doctor's age were jabs at those various writers, not the viewers, imho.

 

As for me, I think Capaldi is going to be a brilliant Doctor.  I loved how his Doctor was so unsettled after the regeneration.  Unformed, even, in a way.  It struck me as a throwback (or homage, if you will) to the transition from Tom Baker to Peter Davison, with the Fifth Doctor actually taking more than one episode to settle in.  I liked the use of the clockwork androids from Girl in the Fireplace, the new titles, the revamped theme, the Paternoster gang (although a little of them does tend to go a long way), and most especially, the firm nail in the coffin of the Doctor as Clara's boyfriend - which was exactly how she thought of Eleven, all her protests to the contrary.  In fact, Clara was the only less the great aspect of the episode for me, and even she bugged less than she had over the last few episodes with Eleven.  So I'm looking forward to seeing where Twelve takes us.  (Is it too much to hope he bumps into Donna and makes her remember her time with the Doctor?  Without burning up her brain, of course.)

[tv-talk]

Though I'm sure it's been catalogued somewhere, without any specific recollection on my part I'm willing to be there have been more than a few throwaway lines over the years which suggest that the Doctor is much older than whatever specific age fandom is currently trying to assign to him. The whole Trenzalore thing I found rather unappealing, yet another attempt to try and top EVERYTHING that has come previously. As I think it was Texaz Gal noted, same scenario with the Companions' situations topping EVERY companion that came before them. Relax Moffat, this is Doctor Who, there is no such thing as the "most" important moment in his history. The Doctor is beyond Time and Space, he's in the mists of existence, and not being able to definitively put your finger on various aspects of his existence is part of the appeal imo. It's a side benefit of a show having started in 1963 and gone through so many actors, writers, lost episodes etc- the story is not definitive.  Don't have to get to top of mountain with every single story arc. Afterall, no matter how critical you make any particular story the fact is the Doctor has saved all of the Universe and Time on repeated previous occasions. 

 

Hmm, maybe that was best for another thread! 

Edited August 26, 2014 by tv-talk

[StillNotGinger]

I absolutely loved it! Saw it in the theatre last night which was so much fun.

I knew Peter Capaldi would be great. He's an amazing actor, and the fact that he's a Who fanboy is just icing on the cake. Eleven was my doctor, but I also loved Nine & Ten. Within the first 10 minutes, Twelve had captured my heart as well.

I think part of the reason they hit us over the head with the age was for the kids. The kids I know who have become Who fans recently talked a lot about not wanting a new Doctor. Twelve is so different than Eleven that I think this had to be addressed in some way. I will admit that as an adult, I got a bit sick of it.

I'm glad we got some hot lizard on girl kissing. Strax is stupidly fun, and by the sounds in the audience, kids love him.

I will have to say that the best part of the night was when the show started and we had no sound. A guy in front of us yelled "I've got it!" and soniced the screen. Many cheers were heard when the sound suddenly started working.

[Llywela]

Though I'm sure it's been catalogued somewhere, without any specific recollection on my part I'm willing to be there have been more than a few throwaway lines over the years which suggest that the Doctor is much older than whatever specific age fandom is currently trying to assign to him. The whole Trenzalore thing I found rather unappealing, yet another attempt to try and top EVERYTHING that has come previously. As I think it was Texaz Gal noted, same scenario with the Companions' situations topping EVERY companion that came before them. Relax Moffat, this is Doctor Who, there is no such thing as the "most" important moment in his history. The Doctor is beyond Time and Space, he's in the mists of existence, and not being able to definitively put your finger on various aspects of his existence is part of the appeal imo. It's a side benefit of a show having started in 1963 and gone through so many actors, writers, lost episodes etc- the story is not definitive.  Don't have to get to top of mountain with every single story arc. Afterall, no matter how critical you make any particular story the fact is the Doctor has saved all of the Universe and Time on repeated previous occasions. 

 

Hmm, maybe that was best for another thread! 

Hehe, hear hear. It has felt as if the writers are constantly trying to outdo the past for a few years now and that always riles me - it isn't a competition! You don't cement a new character's value by undermining those of the past! Yet they constantly seem to want to do just that - under Moffat especially but it was there with Davies as well.

[cardigirl]

I liked the episode.  If I have a complaint it is that I couldn't always catch what was being said.  Something was off in the balance of sound between dialogue and music.

 

I LOVED Matt Smith's Doctor, and I loved the Ponds  and I loved River.  I have a difficult time watching anything with Donna in it, and Rose bugged me no end.  Martha was okay, if a little lovelorn, but she at least decided to leave the Doctor. I liked Eccleston's doctor and tolerated Tennant's.  I never did see the attraction there. 

 

So I was really sad when Rory and Amy left and even more sad that Matt decided to go.  But in spite of that, I am looking forward to Peter Capaldi's Doctor.  I think it will be fantastic. 

 

I often have to rewatch episodes before I can decide if I like them or not, and this one was no different.  On the second rewatch and the third, i found more and more to like.

 

One of my favorite moments was when the Doctor was trying to tell the dinosaur that he was going to keep her safe and take her home (sadly not true).  He said "Hey, big sexy woman!  I brought you here by accident, that's mostly how I meet women."  Ha ha!  Loved that.  Not sure why he kept referring to the dinosaur as his lady friend, or big sexy woman, but I guess his gears kept crossing because of the regeneration.

 

I would be sad not to see the Paternoster Gang again, and I am looking forward to more new episodes.  I thought this was a pretty good start, although, The Eleventh Hour was better, in my opinion. 

 

 

[tarotx]

Out doing yourself is just a symptom of the modern age of TV. "Bigger" and/or "Better" gets press and attention. 

 

I'm not the biggest fan of the Trenzalore episode either but I can see some things that might be coming from it based on watching Deep Breath.The Doctor's age isn't really important imo. He's an ancient Alien. It's more the Passing of time from when we last really knew the Doctor. I can see how it might be like if the Doctor had Rescued old Amy to a degree. It's only one episode in though so we'll see...

Edited August 26, 2014 by tarotx

[magdalene]

I always have to remind myself when some point is not only made but hammered home that this program - while certainly a show that both children and adults can enjoy - that many small children watch Doctor Who.

 

I think the best episodes are those that have something to delight the children and some subtext to please the adults.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Well, the New Who ages have certainly always been wrong. The War Doctor was around long enough for the young man we saw post-regeneration to turn into the old man we met in Day of the Doctor.

 

I think part of Trenzalore and Eleven getting so old was Moffat trying to correct the Doctor's age. For some reason Davies had 9 say he was only 900 or so and so did Ten stay around the 900 number. Well McCoy's Doctor said he was explicitly 953 and in the expanded universe both Seven and Eight (given both doctors were off the air so had long "runs" in other media) were said to have long, long lives. At the same time the War Doctor started off as a young John Hurt and ended up as a old John Hurt and seemingly died of old age (something only shared with the First Doctor). Its very confusing. Having Eleven live so long, future Doctors can just say he's over 2000 (which is what Capaldi said this episode) and let others do the math. Or at least I hope that's what Moffat was going for and not "My Doctor is the bestest so lived the longest ever!".

[John Potts]

Good overall, but it did suffer from Moffatitis - I wish he'd learn that more isn't always better as I felt it would have been a better episode at 45 minutes than a flabby hour and a quarter. Some of the conversations were great (loved Vashtra's interrogating Clara, even if it was - intentionally - unfair); liked the Doctor's post regenerative crisis (even if it did remind me of Pete Davison's first story Castrovalva) and I quite liked showing a darker side to the Doctor (he may have threatened the tramp to get his coat but at least he didn't throttle his companion like Colin Baker). However, it really lost its way in the middle and various plot threads were simply dropped (like - there is a giant T Rex wondering around London that nobody seems to care about - well, except an unconscious Doctor - until he was unceremoniously killed for his optic nerve(?)). Plus we could have lost a few references to the Doctor's apparent age, which has never bothered me as I feel the Doctor should look old enough to be my father, since my first Doctor was Tom Baker and he was (though as my sister pointed out, on that basis if Who makes it to its seventy fifth, they'll need a centegenerian to play him!).

 

I figure that while Clara might know intellectually that the Doctor regenerates, like knowing your parents will one day die it's still another thing when it happens (or so I'd imagine - mine are both still alive) although that analogy doesn't quite work given that she actually has presumably seen all twelve regenerations (maybe her time in the Doctor's time stream was somewhat dreamlike or something?). Quite like the idea of Missy as a female Master (and won't the Fanfics go crazy if that's true!), even if she probably isn't.

Edited August 28, 2014 by John Potts

[Llywela]

Good overall, but it did suffer from Moffatitis - I wish he'd learn that more isn't always better as I felt it would have been a better episode at 45 minutes than a flabby hour and a quarter. Some of the conversations were great (loved Vashtra's interrogating Clara, even if it was - intentionally - unfair); liked the Doctor's post regenerative crisis (even if it did remind me of Pete Davison's first story Castrovalva) and I quite liked showing a darker side to the Doctor (he may have threatened the tramp to get his coat but at least he didn't throttle his companion like Colin Baker). However, it really lost its way in the middle and various plot threads were simply dropped (like - there is a giant T Rex wondering around London that nobody seems to care about - well, except an unconscious Doctor - until he was unceremoniously killed for his optic nerve(?)).

I do agree about the Moffatitis, although I thought it was relatively mild here compared with some of his recent offerings - I found this episode more enjoyable than many have been lately.

 

I'm not sure I'd call the dinosaur a dropped plot point, since it was well and truly resolved within the plot. It was a typical Moffat show-starter - attention-grabbing and unrelated to the actual story - but it served its purpose. It made the point about the Doctor's post-regeneration mania loud and clear, it reminded us that he is alien and that to him we humans are as alien as that dinosaur so he views both it and us differently than we might expect, and it provided him with the motivating factor to break through his mania and focus on a crisis. I found his grief over its murder really touching.

 

That said, I also found the concept of a dinosaur in Victorian London absolutely absurd, but then I think that about the Paternoster gang every time, too, so...

 

ETA - the regeneration reminded you of the fifth Doctor in Castrovalva? It reminded me of the fourth Doctor in Robot! I think it drew on elements of more than one past regeneration!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Llywela

[John Potts]

Llywela The regeneration reminded you of the fifth Doctor in Castrovalva? It reminded me of the fourth Doctor in Robot!

 

I'm not (quite) old enough to have seen Robot live (though I have seen it since) and my defining memory of it (other than bad chromakey FX) is The Doctor skipping rope with Harry. But Peter Capaldi wondering about his face was reminiscent to me of Peter Davison going "The Doctor? Everyone seems to be looking for him!" (or words to that effect - my Who nerdiness doesn't extend to remembering every line of dialogue!) But as you say, Moffat was probably drawing on more than one post regen story.

 

And while the T Rex* wasn't dropped exactly, it did strike me that Victorian Londoners should be slightly less blasé about a hundred foot tall dinosaur (and I'd have loved some sort of explanation as to how it grew ten times its normal size, even a handwavy one) roaming the streets of London. Even if they remember the Cyber King, it's not everyday London gets attacked by kaiju - Victorian Londoners aren't modern day Marvel New Yorkers!

 

* I cannot write "T Rex" without hearing "I'm just a mother-lovin' T Rex!"

[Gracie]

Watching this again.  Tearing up again with him begging her to "see him".  Ahhh, Cabaldi, you had me "Shush".

[pootlus]

I really enjoyed the series premiere.  I wasn't sure at first...I found the middle portion descending into Moffat-written incoherence (I found it odd too that Clara would act the way she did when she knows the Doctor regenerates) but I thought it really picked up nicely once the Doctor and Clara meet at the restaurant.

That was exactly my thought - it was pretty flat up until the restaurant and from that point on I loved it.

As others have said, Clara was much more interesting this time around (and I gave up watching last season partly because she was so irritating and partly Moffat's showrunning drove me bonkers - the story just wasn't interesting).

Their [Vastra and Jenny's] relationship reminds me a little of Sherlock and John's.

That's exactly my thought, they're Sherlock and John. I mean Vastra was always supposed to be the 'famous Victorian detective' with Jenny as her long-suffering partner (although having Jenny be a medical doctor would presumably be even more far-fetched than Vastra being a space lizard), and the detective who hangs around, does he have a name? LeStrade?

Anyway I squeed with excitement and relief when the Doctor took Clara's hand, and I cried buckets when I heard Matt Smith's voice.

Adore Capaldi and can't wait to see what he's going to do.

[Smug]

I have a question that hopefully someone can answer.

When Clara and 12 meet in the restaurant after 12's conversation in the alley, he tells her that he sold or gave away his watch to the bum for his coat. Clara says something to the effect of "you loved that watch!"

My question is, was the watch 10's John Smith watch with the Gallifrey engravings on it? Did he give that watch away previously or did Eleven get a new watch during his tenure? I don't know why, but it caught my eye and gave me pause.

[HauntedBathroom]

Eleven had a wristwatch, I assume that's what Twelve traded.

[Dobian]

A shame there aren't threads for all of the reboot seasons and also no activity on here at all.  I love this show more than I can say.  When I watched this episode I prepared myself for the initial letdown which I knew would come, because all of these doctors have been so great it's only natural to be bummed when they get replaced by someone else.  I call it the Roger Moore Syndrome.  When he took over James Bond from Sean Connery when I was a kid I was totally depressed, but after a couple of outings as 007 I grew to enjoy him in the role.  When David Tennant took over from Christopher Eccleston, I thought he was too goofy.  Then he just grew into this amazing presence.  When Matt Smith took over, I thought he was too Peter Pan-ish, then he too grew into the role and gave some incredibly powerful performances.  His delivery and body language in many of his scenes are incredible.  So when I saw Capaldi for the first time I steeled myself for the initial letdown, knowing that he might just do something equally great with the role albeit different from the others.  It only took an episode or two and I can already see him bringing a lot to the table.  He's older, more serious, more aloof, but still the Doctor.