S02.E07: Arrivederci

[Alexander Pope]

6 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

Albie knew it wasn’t a pimp threat.  He said to his father that she should have a chance at a better life.  And maybe she’ll come to LA to visit at some point.  And maybe she will after she tires of that life. 

I agree. Albie had an interesting arc.  I think it took Lucia's expert "playing" of him and giving him what he wanted to make him own his masculinity in a different way.  Remember at first he had to ask permission to come when receiving a blow job? That same woke passivity (with the potential for aggression underneath as many noted) was part of what made Portia turn him down. Lucia genuinely liked him AND played him.  He got to enjoy himself without worrying about offending her.  I think that alone and the hope she might visit was worth 50K to him. I also think that's why all three men in his family turned to check out that woman as one in the end. Albie was finally a man with an id just like his father and grandfather.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Alexander Pope

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

I've seen her face all the time but what were her big roles for which she's best known?

She was also a regular on 2 Broke Girls. Probably not a show that is received as well as others but it was one of her most consistent roles. 

53 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

Remember at first he had to ask permission to come when receiving a blow job? That same woke passivity (with the potential for aggression underneath as many noted) was part of what made Portia turn him down.

I don't think there's much different about Albie.  He was respectful about the wants of the women he was with even if that got him rejected and played.  I feared potential aggression but we never really saw it towards the women even after he was dumped both times.  I think Portia changed more after being with someone who wasn't as respectful.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, ShannaB said:

A thought about Mike White's writing  -  it seems like he does tie up some storylines, even happily for some characters, but leaves others dangling on purpose to let the audience fill in the blanks with their own assumptions and imaginations. Obviously, looking at all the comments under each episode thread, we don't disappoint!  I don't know if I would consider that brilliant writing or lazy writing.  I do feel played, much like White's characters, especially with the lack of some closure about Tanya, her  money, the gays and Greg.

A lot of current TV writing seems to be like this, allowing viewers to hash it out on social media. Compare, for instance, the current reboot of Law & Order with the older episodes. 


 

1 hour ago, Bluesky said:

Albie knew it wasn’t a pimp threat.  He said to his father that she should have a chance at a better life.  And maybe she’ll come to LA to visit at some point.  And maybe she will after she tires of that life. 

Heh, yeah, maybe Lucia will show up on Albie's tawny-neighborhood doorstep in 12 years with her and Albie's son in tow when she's looking prematurely middle-aged after hard-living, and meanwhile Albie has a wife not unlike Harper or Daphne and a couple of kids of his own.

[greyhorse]

Having never had the privilege of being on one of these fancy super yachts...isn't there an easy way to get onto a yacht from a dinghy?  Can't you get on via the back?  Or isn't there a rope ladder?  How did Niccolo get on board?  Shouldn't Tanya have been able to use the same means to get back into the dinghy?  I know it makes for funnier tv to have her off herself by clumsily hitting her head, but that's beside the point.

I thought Tanya would have taken the bag and the gun and just thrown it into the ocean.  But her taking it and magically somehow killing all but two of the gays without even aiming was hilarious.

Count me in the camp that Ethan and Daphne hooked up on the island.  They still never explained why Ethan isn't attracted to Harper.  She's beautiful and fit.  What was the underlying problem?

As some have posted, I'm not a fan of all these loose ends and leave it up to the audience's imagination.  Would have liked for Mike White to tie up all the stories, although who knows, maybe at least one of him will be carried over to season 3.

[Pixie Styx]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

2 hours ago, ShannaB said:

A thought about Mike White's writing  -  it seems like he does tie up some storylines, even happily for some characters, but leaves others dangling on purpose to let the audience fill in the blanks with their own assumptions and imaginations. Obviously, looking at all the comments under each episode thread, we don't disappoint!  I don't know if I would consider that brilliant writing or lazy writing.  I do feel played, much like White's characters, especially with the lack of some closure about Tanya, her  money, the gays and Greg.

Expand  

A lot of current TV writing seems to be like this, allowing viewers to hash it out on social media. Compare, for instance, the current reboot of Law & Order with the older episodes. 

This resonates with me. I tend to enjoy puzzles/mysteries that are character-driven -- where the reveal is something about the characters we didn't know -- more than puzzles/mysteries that seem to exist as an overlay on top of the characters, which sometimes seem to exist primarily to spur discussion on social media. Season 1 felt more like the former to me, and Season 2 felt more like the latter.

[slowpoked]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

I've seen her face all the time but what were her big roles for which she's best known?

I think she’s been part of Christopher Guest’s mockumentaries, a regular similar to Catherine O’Hara and Eugene Levy.

For movies, she’s Stifler’s mom in the American Pie series and Paulette from Legally Blonde.

Jennifer’s interview was interesting. She alluded to the con plot of WL being similar to something that happened to her personally. And she admits that she was never the type of celebrity who earned millions, she only earned enough to make a living. It’s a great reminder that not all celebrities are made equal, even if they have enough of a name recognition and are seen on TV/movies. 

[aghst]

Someone tweeted a picture of Belinda, what would be the expression on her face when she found out Tanya died.

[nb360]

I loved this expression on Aubrey Plaza's face.

[chocolatine]

21 minutes ago, WatcherUatl10 said:

Tanya has always been shown to be a bit flighty, and, even when circumstances would have snapped a normal person back to reality, her question to Quentin was about whether Greg was cheating on her. I don't think it occurred to her to do any of the things normal people would do in getting off the boat. That said, they were not likely to have left the dinghy easily accessed by anyone but Niccolo and/or the conspirators, if that's actually what they were.

But wasn't Quentin's plan that she would get on the little boat with Niccolo, he would kill her there, throw her overboard, and make it look like an accidental drowning? When Niccolo arrived he was shown docking his boat and climbing up a ladder from it. Presumably, Tanya would have used that same ladder to get onto the boat later that day, so she could have done the same thing after the shooting spree if she had stopped for a minute to collect herself. She could have still slipped and fallen off the ladder, especially with the high heel shoes on, but it was much less risky than jumping.

[Chalby]

Nooooo! jennifer Coolidge (sp?) is not going to be on the next White Lotus. I need to know the story behind everyone, or did I miss something? What "dark" place did Jack stoop to? What happened to Greg, her hubby? Clearly, he inherits everything now, so will he be in the next one? I love this series.

[giovannif7]

51 minutes ago, aghst said:

Someone tweeted a picture of Belinda, what would be the expression on her face when she found out Tanya died.

I would dearly love to have Belinda show up as a resort guest in the next season of WL, after learning Tanya left her a bundle in her will - enough to open her dream spa and to do some travelling.

[Chalby]

9 hours ago, MrsR said:

Hell no. I think Greg is definitely involved. Just smart enough to not do the dirty work.

I want to see who Greg was saying, "I love you" to. Is it a man, a woman, a character we already know, maybe from the 1st season? All I know is her hunch was right, there is someone else, and now Greg is wealthy.

[UsernameFatigue]

I had also read that Jennifer Coolidge was coming back for Season 3, so was shocked when Tanya was the dead body. I hope Mike White continues on with the story as far as what happens to Greg, and I hope he does not get away with murder for hire. I also hope Tanya comes back to haunt Greg. 

[PurpleTentacle]

I'm a bit unclear what was really going on. I guess that far fetched theory about the convoluted plan to kill Tanya turned out to be true? I could totally see her just making it all up in her head, if there wasn't the "nephew". There was certainly something going on and if it would have been some sort of blackmail, it would have happened on the boat.

So I guess they really were going to off her. Just not sure why in this super complicated way. But logic already wasn't this shows strong suite in season one.

So then I guess Greg got away with his murder plot and got half a billion dollars for his efforts. Continuing this shows theme of horrible rich people getting happy endings. At least this season the working (class) women also got happy endings and really no poor people got fucked over.

Did Aubrey Plaza bang the douche? Probably. But she and her husband are happy now, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:23 AM, MerBearStare said:

I have to admit, I was really hoping Tanya would make it. It surprised me how sad I was that she was the dead body. But she killed a (mafia?) hitman, so even if she had gotten away, she probably would have had to spend the rest of her life in hiding.

Eh, not really. It's not like she killed a boss. Just stay out of Italy and maybe hire security.

On 12/12/2022 at 4:28 AM, Samsnee said:

I wish Albie had died. What a spoiled little shit. Blackmailing your dad for $50k because you fell in love with a hooker. 

That wasn't blackmail, that was bribery. "I'll do this for you if you give me money", instead of "I'll do this to you if you don't give me money." And tbh, the dad deserved it.

On 12/12/2022 at 4:32 AM, Armchair Critic said:

Was Jack supposed to kill Portia? He did her a favor letting her go. I just hope when they investigate that it points to Greg.

On 12/12/2022 at 4:52 AM, txhorns79 said:

I could be wrong, but I presume he was initially going to kill her.  Otherwise, she's a loose end that could easily reveal the whole plot.  For me, I was shocked she got into the car with him at all, given she knew at that point he was, at best, super-sketchy and kind of scary.

I think he was really just supposed to charm her, drive her around the island and when she got back: "Oh no, your boss tragically drowned in a freak accident. Oh well, guess you better fly home." But once she had figured out what was going on, that was out the window and so he threatened her instead. I don't think he was a killer. That was never his job or intention, so even if it had been necessary, I don't think he would have had it in him.

On 12/12/2022 at 4:47 AM, AzureOwl said:

I don't think so. As Greg's reaction shows in retrospect, Portia's presence in Sicily was not part of the plan and everything relating to her was probably improvised. 

That's right I had forgotten about that part. He was suspiciously angry about the assistent being there. I mean how can it hurt having an assistent around? That doesn't mean you have to work. On the contrary it means you have somebody around to keep things off your back, so you can actually enjoy your vacation.

On 12/12/2022 at 4:49 AM, Whimsy said:

I don’t understand why Portia was wearing all the stuff to “hide” when she literally did nothing wrong. She should’ve immediately gone to the hotel to see what was up with Tanya, after calling the police. 

That you did nothing wrong doesn't protect you from getting murdered by the mafia.

On 12/12/2022 at 5:09 AM, aghst said:

Why would she put him as the beneficiary in her will if she had doubts about Greg?

She doesn't have to. He is her husband. If there is no will, he gets everything.

[DigitalCount]

6 hours ago, greyhorse said:

Having never had the privilege of being on one of these fancy super yachts...isn't there an easy way to get onto a yacht from a dinghy?  Can't you get on via the back?  Or isn't there a rope ladder?  How did Niccolo get on board?  Shouldn't Tanya have been able to use the same means to get back into the dinghy?  I know it makes for funnier tv to have her off herself by clumsily hitting her head, but that's beside the point.

Not only did we see Niccolo slowly and deliberately ascending the built-in ladder from his dinghy, but Hugo also jumped into the ocean from the ladder area, and Tanya leaned over it when she was looking at him in dismay. It was comical how as she was trying to navigate going over the edge, the way out couldn't have been more than 20 feet away from her.

[Rebecca berkowit]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:32 PM, gail56 said:

Wait, I thought Tanya was confirmed for next season? Was that said in the press to throw us off?

If you notice, Mike White never said she’d definitely be back or she was signed or anything.  He said he’d love to have her back for future seasons if it could be worked out.  

[Rebecca berkowit]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:41 PM, slowpoked said:

Not only that - Tanya is an heiress of a very rich man, and has become very rich herself. I assume there would be an exhaustive, intensive and extensive investigation into her death.

But c’mon! Why would her prenup be designed that way? What a lousy lawyer she had. You would think people like Tanya would be very well protected from BOTH divorces AND death.

A prenup only governs divorce. (Edited to add that someone on here who is probably more knowledgeable than I  said that you can put what the spouse gets after your death in a prenup.  Makes sense.  But I don’t see why you would, why not just put it in the Will?)  It is triggered when the marriage is dissolved, so the court doesn’t get to distribute the property.  That’s what it’s for, protection in the event of divorce.  Deaths are generally governed by wills.  You could put the same thing in your will that’s in the prenup.  But why would you do that?  Presumably you would think you’d be getting along with your spouse when you died, so you’d want him to have your money when you die.  Perhaps if you were afraid that the person might kill you for the money, then you might put the same thing in your will that’s in the prenup. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Rebecca berkowit

[Rebecca berkowit]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:17 PM, Jaundiced Eye said:

I wonder if he knows or suspects those kids aren't his.

So is it definite that the kids aren’t his?  I saw a review that seemed to say this was a fact.  I still doubt she would have more than one kid by another man, even for revenge.  One, maybe, by accident.  But Cameron is a good looking, smart, successful guy, I don’t see why she’d deliberately want to conceive children with some dumb trainer, no matter how blond.

On 12/11/2022 at 11:18 PM, slowpoked said:

Yes I know it wouldn’t be in a prenup, but that’s what Tanya said. It’s highly possible that her prenup would reference her will when it comes to issues of death. But like you said, it’s those tiny details that Mike White deem not too important to get right.

While walking to the cove, I was waiting for Ethan to tell Daphne that Cameron hooked up with the hookers when they were gone. Daphne has been putting a brave face saying his cheating doesn’t matter to her, but it would be interesting to see her actual reaction when told of a real cheating incident that someone witnessed.

The actress was very good in that scene.  Her face fell, subtly, and there were tears in her eyes.  And then she just, in a fraction of a second, pulled herself back together and asked Ethan to go on the walk.  She came up with a plan right there to “do what you have to do to be ok with it.”  That’s her mantra.  

[Rebecca berkowit]

On 12/12/2022 at 12:21 AM, coconutcookie said:

Wonder if Jon Gries will be back next season now that he has Tanya's money, or will he be found out before he can squander some of it at a White Lotus?  He said I love you to someone on the phone. Was that a woman or is he one of "the gays?"

Didn’t Quentin say his greatest love was a cowboy in Wyoming?  I assumed that’s who Greg was talking to on the phone.  You wouldn’t murder someone just for a casual acquaintance.  It’s clear they kept in touch all these years.  There is a photo of him in the guy’s house.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by Rebecca berkowit

[shapeshifter]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:32 PM, Armchair Critic said:

Was Jack supposed to kill Portia?

On 12/11/2022 at 10:47 PM, AzureOwl said:

Portia's presence in Sicily was not part of the plan and everything relating to her was probably improvised. 

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I think he was really just supposed to charm her, drive her around the island and when she got back: "Oh no, your boss tragically drowned in a freak accident. Oh well, guess you better fly home." But once she had figured out what was going on, that was out the window and so he threatened her instead. I don't think he was a killer. That was never his job or intention, so even if it had been necessary, I don't think he would have had it in him.

And yet, who among us viewers did not feel the dread in those scenes of Portia being non-stop gaslighted by Jack? 
Well, maybe the Fashion Polizias among us were cheering Jack on, LOL.

But ultimately, even though the Portia may have been the Worst Personal Assistant Ever and therefore did not save her boss from scammers and murderers, Portia did manage to throw enough of a monkey wrench into the mix to freak out Tanya to the point where she did at least deliver some Tanya-style Mafia justice to Greg's gang of merry gaslighters.

Maybe on Greg's way to a meeting with his attorney to collect on his dead wife's billions, a piano will fall on his head or something.
 

Aww, Tanya. You should've just listened to the fortune teller.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

So is it definite that the kids aren’t his?  I saw a review that seemed to say this was a fact.  I still doubt she would have more than one kid by another man, even for revenge.  One, maybe, by accident.  But Cameron is a good looking, smart, successful guy, I don’t see why she’d deliberately want to conceive children with some dumb trainer, no matter how blond.

I don't think she would deliberately try to get pregnant from another man, but I'm guessing the kids are the trainer's. She showed Harper the photo of her very blonde blue-eyed child after saying that her trainer was blonde and blue-eyed. Cameron is the opposite of that.

1 hour ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

Didn’t Quentin say his greatest love was a cowboy in Wyoming?  I assumed that’s who Greg was talking to on the phone.  You wouldn’t murder someone just for a casual acquaintance.  It’s clear they kept in touch all these years.  There is a phot of him in the guy’s house.  

In the photo, Quentin and Greg were both wearing cowboy hats. I think that's a big sign to viewers that Greg is the cowboy Quentin was talking about. The Wyoming detail could easily be a lie.

[dmc]

Something occurred to me last night.  Isn’t Tanya’s death exactly how Natalie Wood died supposedly?

[Whimsy]

14 hours ago, Dminches said:

One review of the finale felt that they may not be Cameron’s kids based on the scene in which he did not seem interested in talking to them in the hotel room while he was flossing.  I am not sure I agree with that but it could mean something.

Eh.  Or, he just really didn't want kids, she talked him into it and now he does the bare minimum to be a dad.  It happens.  I know there's ambiguity about if those kids are Cameron's or the trainers, but I still firmly believe they are Cameron's and she was showing a picture of her kids to Harper to make Harper feel guilty about blowing up the kids lives if she pushed the conversation further and somehow made Daphne take the steps to leave Cameron.

19 minutes ago, dmc said:

Something occurred to me last night.  Isn’t Tanya’s death exactly how Natalie Wood died supposedly?

Well, not EXACTLY, heh.  I don't think there was a murder plot with the Italian mafia, etc...  But, yes, Natalie Wood supposedly slipped off the yacht but some still think her husband killed her. 

[Madding crowd]

I thought the kids were Cameron’s. Kids are often blonde and get darker hair later. My son had super blonde hair and blue eyes as a baby and now has brown hair and eyes. I didn’t put much thought into Cameron not being as enthused about talking to the kids. Some dads are not as affectionate as moms and I remember when my kids were little and my husband and I were on a rare day off, he wanted me to not spend much time on checking in at home. 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

A prenup only governs divorce.  It is triggered when the marriage is dissolved, so the court doesn’t get to distribute the property.  That’s what it’s for, protection in the event of divorce.  Deaths are governed by wills.  The only way to protect yourself in death is to put the same thing in your will that’s in the prenup.  But why would you do that?  Presumably you would think you’d be getting along with your spouse when you died, so you’d want him to have your money when you die.  Perhaps if you were afraid that the person might kill you for the money, then you might put the same thing in your will that’s in the prenup.  But you’d have to do that through the wall.  You can’t put anything that you want to happen after your death in the prenup.  It doesn’t work that way.  When you die, the court will look to your will.  If there is no will, there are other laws which govern who gets what.  

This is not exactly correct.  I wrote something upthread but I'll repeat.  In most states you may not disinherit a spouse completely in your will.  So if you do, the spouse can go to court and get the mandated "elective" share (in my state, NY, it's a third).  BUT, you can have the spouse waive that right in a prenup.  This might usually be done for people in second marriages so their children inherit. 

So her prenup was badly done if it did not include this possibility for a snake like Greg.  Removes the incentive to kill spouse and then get all the money if you can cover up your involvement . . .

Edited December 13, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[dmc]

29 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

Well, not EXACTLY, heh.  I don't think there was a murder plot with the Italian mafia, etc...  But, yes, Natalie Wood supposedly slipped off the yacht but some still think her husband killed her. 

Lol not the mob part but she supposedly slipped off a yacht and was weighed down by her clothing.  I actually saw an ID discovery where they essentially proved that she drowned.  
 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by dmc

[Rebecca berkowit]

20 hours ago, Joan van Snark said:

I HATE HATE that Tanya died.  I really liked her this season much more and I thought for sure she would somehow against all odds and without much of her own effort somehow turn the tables and escape the killers.  Or maybe they would show her to be a little more clever than we've been led to believe she is.  I dont know if I buy that Tanya would know how to fire a gun, much less take out nearly everyone on board,  I guess it was stupid irony that she would hit her head on the boat trying to escape, but dammit I wanted her to make it.  It infuriated me how long it took Portia to try to do anything to help Tanya.   Why didnt she try to call her when Jack gave her the phone back?

I felt the couples' resolutions were kind of lackluster, and can't believe Dom caved and gave that girl 50K Euros!  I really think I would have been more impressed if somehow all of the different stories kind of came together in the end and all the main players were somehow involved in the final denouement, but alas it was not to be....

I think Portia did try to call her when she got the phone back, but by that time Tanya had dropped the phone in the water.  At the airport Portia said Tanya was not answering her phone.  Of course, she could’ve not called just because she was terrified of the mobsters.  

18 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Interesting! So in your theory, Greg has nothing to do with the plot.

That would make sense with Quentin's utterly uncomprehending look to Tanya. "Greg? You're going on about Greg again?" (Dies.)

But if they kill her, and they DON’T know Greg, how would they get her money?  

[Rebecca berkowit]

18 hours ago, dmc said:

You think she knows the dead body is Tanya?  I didn't get that sense at all.  

I think she had a strong suspicion when he said they also found a bunch of dead guys on a yacht.  

[Rebecca berkowit]

14 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

You're assuming Quentin has the connections for an actual hitman. 

Everything we saw on screen leads me to believe that Niccolò was exactly what Quentin said he was: Quentin's drug dealer / gigolo, and that Quentin hired him to do the actual killing because a) nobody in Quentin's group had the balls to actually do the deed, and b) he was the only actual criminal they actually knew.

Jack's talk of dangerous people Portia shouldn't mess with was just that... talk. They're just a bunch of broke patrician expats playing at being criminal masterminds in a Patricia Highsmith novel.

When you think about it, all the holes people on this threat have been poking in Greg & Quentin's scheme are actually good writing. None of these people is a career criminal, so of course their plans is riddled with problems that might get them caught.  

Good point.  But what did Jack mean when he said Quentin and his friends had helped him when he was in a hole?  And that Quentin was in the same hole, but was going to come into money to get him out of it?   I took that to mean he was indebted to them and/or the mafia.  Or perhaps he is just indebted to Quentin and Quentin is indebted to the mafia?  

[DigitalCount]

When Daphne made the remark about her trainer, I immediately thought she was saying she had the trainer's kid (at least the older one). I think perhaps the main reason why I don't think she was actually talking about how her kids help her cope is that she's never been coy about how much she loves the kids. I think she may have mentioned them in every episode. I don't see a reason for her to bring up her "trainer" and then oh, surprise, it's actually her kids; she'd just say "my kids get me through." Also, when she says "oops, another time then"...it's hard to describe, but a bit of her facial armor slips, and her expression is conveying "yes, that's exactly what I meant, what's it to you?"

The sad part is that Cameron had a similar expression when he was supposed to be video chatting with the kids. He knows or at least suspects that they aren't his. But he's all smiles when he does emerge from the bathroom, so he's at least trying to treat them as if they're his own.

Edited December 13, 2022 by DigitalCount
Episode 7 comments

[Rebecca berkowit]

13 hours ago, Eureka said:

Best in Show, Legally Blonde are a couple that come to mind.

Stifler’s Mom.

8 hours ago, Chalby said:

I want to see who Greg was saying, "I love you" to. Is it a man, a woman, a character we already know, maybe from the 1st season? All I know is her hunch was right, there is someone else, and now Greg is wealthy.

It’s Quentin, I think.

[Rebecca berkowit]

50 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

This is not exactly correct.  I wrote something upthread but I'll repeat.  In most states you may not disinherit a spouse completely in your will.  So if you do, the spouse can go to court and get the mandated "elective" share (in my state, NY, it's a third).  BUT, you can have the spouse waive that right in a prenup.  This might usually be done for people in second marriages so their children inherit. 

So her prenup was badly done if it did not include this possibility for a snake like Greg.  Removes the incentive to kill spouse and then get all the money if you can cover up your involvement . . .

Thanks, that clarifies things!  I edited my post.  Gotta go check my prenup now…lol

[peeayebee]

18 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

The sad part is that Cameron had a similar expression when he was supposed to be video chatting with the kids. He knows or at least suspects that they aren't his. But he's all smiles when he does emerge from the bathroom, so he's at least trying to treat them as if they're his own.

Daphne and Cameron seem to have a relationship where they "allow" the other to do whatever s/he wants just so long as it's not in their face. Each knows the other fools around or does whatever s/he wants, but out of sight, out of mind. So I think Cameron does know those aren't his kids, but he doesn't confront Daphne about it because that's not how they roll.

[ichbin]

20 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

That would make sense with Quentin's utterly uncomprehending look to Tanya. "Greg? You're going on about Greg again?" (Dies.)

Interesting thought.  I wondered about the rope and tape.  Suppose it could also be possible that they were planning to kidnap her for ransom using Niccolo as bait to make it easy when it went down somewhere outside of the palazzo or yacht associated with the high-end gay group.

It's been said this this season was supposed to be like a bedroom farce and those are usually rife with misunderstandings gone wild.

14 hours ago, ShannaB said:

A thought about Mike White's writing  -  it seems like he does tie up some storylines, even happily for some characters, but leaves others dangling on purpose to let the audience fill in the blanks with their own assumptions and imaginations.

I have to say that I prefer a neat and tidy presentation and not one open to interpretation when I watch a show or read a book.  I'm not pulling in a paycheck for creativity.

45 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

When Daphne made the remark about her trainer, I immediately thought she was saying she had the trainer's kid (at least the older one).

I mean it was pretty pointed when she talked about the trainer's appearance and then showed the photo of her kids, at least one of which appearing to look more like that than her husband.  

1 hour ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

I think she had a strong suspicion when he said they also found a bunch of dead guys on a yacht.  

I agree.  The character was shown to be dumb but not entirely stupid.  She was smart enough to heed Jack's advice and get straight to the airport too with the understanding that there was a very real threat involved.  The new information just put the finishing pieces into a puzzle where the final picture was already clear.

[slowpoked]

This conversation still replays in my mind:

Jack to Portia: Look, you're a smart girl....

My reaction: eh, not really. 

Jack to Portia: Smarter than me, yeah?

My reaction: No, she's definitely not!

Jack to Portia: Just don't be stupid, ok?

My reaction: Too late for that!!!

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

But if they kill her, and they DON’T know Greg, how would they get her money?  

Oh, right. 😂

59 minutes ago, ichbin said:

It's been said this this season was supposed to be like a bedroom farce and those are usually rife with misunderstandings gone wild.

What if, when Quentin is knocking on his bedroom door on the yacht, he really is just concerned for Tanya's well-being, and the murder plot is pure paranoia on her part?

[ichbin]

12 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

What if, when Quentin is knocking on his bedroom door on the yacht, he really is just concerned for Tanya's well-being, and the murder plot is pure paranoia on her part?

I'd consider that except for Jack purposefully keeping Portia away, things he revealed to her while drunk, and the warning he gave her when he dropped her off near the airport which all point toward something nefarious.

[Pike Ludwell]

.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Pike Ludwell

[iMonrey]

16 hours ago, ShannaB said:

A thought about Mike White's writing  -  it seems like he does tie up some storylines, even happily for some characters, but leaves others dangling on purpose to let the audience fill in the blanks with their own assumptions and imaginations. Obviously, looking at all the comments under each episode thread, we don't disappoint!  I don't know if I would consider that brilliant writing or lazy writing.  I do feel played, much like White's characters, especially with the lack of some closure about Tanya, her  money, the gays and Greg.

I guess I just don't understand the adulation for this show, or the reverence for Mike White in particular. I think this was a just-OK character study piece with a good cast, but not something I'd ever watch twice or hand out Emmy awards to. 

[Rebecca berkowit]

I think Ethan slept with Daphne.  I think his whole thing with his wife wasn’t about her at all.  It was all about his rivalry with Cameron, going back a long time.   Cameron always made him feel inferior, like he wasn’t worthy of getting the girl, even his own wife.  He just couldn’t touch her, or the prostitute.  He was totally cuckolded by Cameron, even though there was no actual cuckolding going on.   They had long settled into these roles in college, Cameron the one that got the girls, Ethan the nerd who didn’t.    Once he had bedded Daphne, and Cameron had not completely succeeded in bedding Harper, and she’d called him an idiot, and he had punched Cameron, he finally felt “man enough” to have sex with his wife.  It wasn’t about her, or their marriage, at all, but still it worked out for them.  He wasn’t turned on by his wife, he was turned on by being like Cameron, or besting Cameron.  Maybe some subtle homosexual feelings in there, too.  
 

I think Harper didn’t do much with Cameron, though probably something did happen short of actual sex. I think she may even have been embellishing things when she told Ethan.  (She was definitely not telling the whole truth, but I think she was lying about how they did do something, not about how they didn’t).  I think she thought that would make Ethan want her.  It had the opposite effect, because it just reinforced Ethan’s own feelings of inferiority.  
 

As for the scheme with the gays, I think Greg wanted to get out of the prenup, so he called Quentin.  I think Quentin needed money, either for the villa or because he was in trouble with the mob, or a little of both.  I think Greg was upset that Portia was there, and Jack was roped in at the last minute to distract her and make sure she wasn’t at the party.  The gigolo was brought in to make Tanya feel ok about getting on a small boat in the middle of the night with a man.  He was supposed to kill her, but he also had sex with her first to distract her and make her trust him.  The photo left out on the desk was to illustrate just how stupid Tanya is.  Last episode I thought it was too hard to believe he would leave it out there.  But it paid off this episode, when she said “Wow, he looks just like Greg!”  So dumb, and they knew she was dumb.  Remember, Greg on the phone said “yeah, she still has no clue.”  He had told Quentin how dumb she was.  
 

I don’t think that this was a setup from the beginning of season 1, though.  I think it is something Mike White thought of later, and that’s why it doesn’t completely track.  Greg certainly didn’t seem like he had a long-standing gay lover in season 1, and it’s far-fetched to believe he and Quentin were actually targeting Tanya that early on.  I think it’s a retcon, and it always struck me as too pat.  But I did think it was done well at the end. I loved this episode.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by Rebecca berkowit

[slowpoked]

2 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

When Daphne made the remark about her trainer, I immediately thought she was saying she had the trainer's kid (at least the older one). I think perhaps the main reason why I don't think she was actually talking about how her kids help her cope is that she's never been coy about how much she loves the kids. I think she may have mentioned them in every episode. I don't see a reason for her to bring up her "trainer" and then oh, surprise, it's actually her kids; she'd just say "my kids get me through." Also, when she says "oops, another time then"...it's hard to describe, but a bit of her facial armor slips, and her expression is conveying "yes, that's exactly what I meant, what's it to you?"

The sad part is that Cameron had a similar expression when he was supposed to be video chatting with the kids. He knows or at least suspects that they aren't his. But he's all smiles when he does emerge from the bathroom, so he's at least trying to treat them as if they're his own.

I maybe the only one but I don't think there's even a trainer in Daphne's life, as she referenced when talking to Harper. I think she was talking about a "trainer" in the metaphorical sense - her message to Harper was get something, or even someone, to distract herself so she's not obsessing about Ethan all the time. Daphne showing the kids to Harper, instead of the "trainer", wasn't a mistake at all by Daphne. She intended to show the picture of her kids to Harper, and her message was, the kids are the reason she stays in her marriage, despite Cameron's transgressions. Her kids are her "distraction" from  obsessing about Cameron all the time, and she's advising Harper to have something similar for herself.

[Stella]

Regarding the paternity of Cameron & Daphne’s kids, Theo James says in a Vulture interview that:

There’s a theory floating around online that Daphne and Cameron’s kids aren’t his since they have blond hair and blue eyes just like Daphne’s trainer. What do you think about that assertion? 
I think one of them is his kid.

So he buys into the theory it seems.

Full interview:

https://www.vulture.com/article/theo-james-white-lotus-finale-interview-cameron-harper-paternity-explained.html

[aghst]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Oh, right. 😂

What if, when Quentin is knocking on his bedroom door on the yacht, he really is just concerned for Tanya's well-being, and the murder plot is pure paranoia on her part?

niccolo broke through the door.

She didn’t start shooting until then.

Niccolo brought rope and duct tape on board, in addition to a gun.

[Rebecca berkowit]

So here’s a question I haven’t seen addressed.  I get that Jack thought he was doing a nice thing for Portia by taking her to the airport and telling her to get out of the country.  But, how was Portia supposed to just get on a plane and go back home?  You can’t get on a plane back into the US from abroad without showing your passport. They check.  Did she just happen to bring her passport with her on what she thought was going to be an afternoon outing with Jack?   Did she leave it at the hotel?  Were she and Tanya intending to come back?  And if she left it at the hotel, she certainly couldn’t have gone back to get it, what with Jack’s stern warning and all.  Any ideas would be welcome, the passport thing has been eating at me.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by Rebecca berkowit

[BC4ME]

21 minutes ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

So here’s a question I haven’t seen addressed.  I get that Jack thought he was doing a nice thing for Portia by taking her to the airport and telling her to get out of the country.  But, how was Portia supposed to just get on a plane and go back home?  You can’t get on a plane back into the US from abroad without showing your passport. They check.  Did she just happen to bring her passport with her on what she thought was going to be an afternoon outing with Jack?   Did she leave it at the hotel?  Were she and Tanya intending to come back?  And if she left it at the hotel, she certainly couldn’t have gone back to get it, what with Jack’s stern warning and all.  Any ideas would be welcome, the passport thing has been eating at me.  

Excellent question. My only answer would be she might've had her passport with her in case she needed to show it for any reason. I've carried mine in my pocketbook before.

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I guess I just don't understand the adulation for this show, or the reverence for Mike White in particular. I think this was a just-OK character study piece with a good cast, but not something I'd ever watch twice or hand out Emmy awards to. 

I'm with you on this one. I love good mystery shows, and this one is good enough, but it isn't mind-blowing for me. Some series that have stayed with me for years because they were so good were S1 of Damages and S1 of Big Little Lies, at least that I can remember. 

Tanya dying was a really good surprise and misdirect for me, but the circumstances leading to her death could have been polished more. To me, it's not just a good mystery if there were more questions than answers at the end of it.

The other characters were ok enough, definitely more interesting this season than last. Even the hotel employees and locals had a lot more oomph this season compared to S1.  I understand that this is a fictional TV show, and not everyone will get the happy ending or comeuppance that they deserve. But I like that it's an anthology series and we get a new location each season. The fact that they were able to go out of the resort this season and explore Sicily made S2 head and shoulders above compared to S1, not that it was the fault of S1 seeing as they were restricted during that time. But the travel porn will be enough for me to keep coming back to the series.

[hatchetgirl]

Well, I was CERTAIN Tanya didn't die and we would see her next season, but of course, if wishes and buts were candies and nuts, we'd have Christmas every day!  LOL  And of course, I spoiled myself, because I'm terrible with suspense.  I had hoped we would see Tanya fall and then end credits, no body, but it was most definitely her body that Daphne walks into...

Quentin was truly scary at the end.  I loved that.  And I do think Greg and Quentin are long time lovers and it wasn't just a coincidence.  So count me as a long con believer.  :)

I'm completely on the fence about Daphne and Ethan.  I don't know if they "went all the way" as we said in high school.  Maybe, a kiss (like Harper and Cameron) was enough for Ethan to get revved up for Harper and soothe his bruised ego?

Did Portia go back to the hotel and get her things before the airport or did she just rabbit?

Albie and crew - I don't care.  

Valentina, Lucia and Mia - the beginnings of a wild and wonderful friendship, I hope!  :)

Oh yeah - and they COULD bring back Tanya if it's a whole flashback season with Tanya and her mother.  I would love to see that!  Who would play her mother and be as scary as we would expect?  Maybe Bette Midler?  Hmmm

Edited December 13, 2022 by hatchetgirl
To add another thought

[PurpleTentacle]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:27 AM, slowpoked said:

So when Jack told Portia to get lost because these people are so powerful that she would not know who she’ll be facing off - was he just scaring her off so she wouldn’t look into things, or are there other players in this whole thing, and Tanya wasn’t the last target?

I mean the Mafia was involved and 500 million dollars were on the line. I think that is sufficient. There don't have to be other targets.

20 hours ago, Haleth said:

Aww, I'm sad that it was Tanya that died.  She was often self absorbed and inconsiderate, but there was also an innocence about her that made her somewhat likable.  Although it was never really confirmed that Greg was behind a plot to kill her, I hate that he ends up with all her money.  (It could be that the whole plot was in her head and despite the suspicious evidence to the contrary no one was really out to do her harm.  Unlikely, I know, but what if?)

It's pretty much impossible, when you consider the boytoy trying to distract the assistent and confirming everything in the end. Something was going on and it obviously wasn't blackmail, otherwise they would have done it on the boat.

18 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Then why not hire a single hit man? Why involve 7 other people, all of whom expect something? The plot to meet Tanya in Hawaii then arrange the meeting with Quentin was complicated enough; if Quentin was just a hired hit man and Greg just needed someone to kill Tanya it is way too convoluted.

I mean where would you find a single hitman? Greg asked the only people, with such connections, he knew.

The plan they came up with was way too convoluted, true. But then again, they were old(ish) queens. That's about what you'd expect.

18 hours ago, sainte-chapelle said:

My friend and her family are from northern Italy and told me to never trust the cops there

You should never trust the cops anywhere in the world. They are not your friends. They have no duty to protect and serve. Their job is to keep the current system, of the country you are currently in, running and they'll run you over to do so.

23 hours ago, dmc said:

this is one of the most unbelievable elements of that plot which was totally unbelievable.  Portia getting on a plane not knowing what was up with Tanya.  I feel like I have been defending Portia because she's a 20 year old idiot...but even me at 20...would not had left until I had heard on gotten confirmation with my boss.  As an assistant what if Tanya wanted to extend her stay or whatever...

If my life had just been threatened in a foreign country, where I don't know who I can trust? Screw my shitty job! I'm out of there!

23 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Interesting! So in your theory, Greg has nothing to do with the plot.

That would make sense with Quentin's utterly uncomprehending look to Tanya. "Greg? You're going on about Greg again?" (Dies.)

Greg has to be behind the plot because he is the only one who gets the money.

I took that look more as "Bitch, you are asking me about him cheating when he was behind a plot to kill you? Just let me die in peace!"

22 hours ago, peeayebee said:

But I'm fuzzy on the plan. Why did Quentin arrange for Tanya to have sex with Niccoló? And what was with the red light in the bedroom, seemingly recording the encounter? Seems that was for evidence of Tanya's infidelity, and yet it sure seemed from Niccoló's black bag that violence was intended. 

Also getting the assistent out of the way. For a simple blackmail talk, you didn't have to seperate them for that long. Also you'd think that talk would have happened on the boat.

The writing is weird. All the things the gays did would make way more sense if they wanted to blackmail her, but at the end it was pretty clearly going to be a murder. Maybe Mike White just threw one too many red herings in the water.

I guess if there is an infidelity clause in the prenup and they had video of the infidelity, they wouldn't need to talk to her. But then again, why get rid of the assistent when the deed was already done? She could have riden back with them on the boat, if the intention was to just drop Tanya off at the hotel and give the video to Greg later.

21 hours ago, aghst said:

The fates of the characters are also probably determined by the availability of these actors.

Some like Coolidge are big names and may not have wanted to do more seasons.

Same with Hollander, who probably has a lot of offers for parts.

They are both big names but not Hollywood-big. A steady job on an HBO show that is shot at beautiful locations is about as good as it gets for them.

21 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

Off the wall theory just for fun:  maybe Quentin had kept track of Greg all along because of young unrequited love but pretends it's just friendship.  So he subtly gets Greg interested in Sicily.  If he's a long term stalker, maybe he knows Greg is having an affair with another woman.  So he takes advantage of Greg's absence to get Tanya alone and tries to (again subtly) get her to donate $$$.  When that doesn't work, brings in the gigalo to get blackmail footage.  But the overall plan is to kidnap Tanya for ransom.  The ropes and duct tape seem more in that direction.  Once they have her alone, they can either have her arrange a ransom or contact Greg and threaten him with exposure for his affair if he doesn't arrange the ransom.

Somehow I feel that kidnapping and ransom is an old tradition in that part of the world.

But then why drive her back to the White Lotus?

18 hours ago, aghst said:

One thing I missed is that one of the gays didn't want to go on the yacht going back to Taormina because he didn't want to be part of the plot to kill her.

That was Matteo and Quentin said something about Matteo being broken up about having to say bye to Tanya before they left his palazzo.

So Matteo was never down with the plan to kill Tanya or maybe had last-second misgivings.

Yeah he also kept crying and Quentin excused that with him being an emotional italien.

18 hours ago, Bluesky said:

Albie knew it wasn’t a pimp threat.  He said to his father that she should have a chance at a better life.  And maybe she’ll come to LA to visit at some point.  And maybe she will after she tires of that life. 

He didn't know. He meant a better life away from her pimp. He quite clearly said at the airport that he had been scammed.

6 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Eh.  Or, he just really didn't want kids, she talked him into it and now he does the bare minimum to be a dad.  It happens.  I know there's ambiguity about if those kids are Cameron's or the trainers, but I still firmly believe they are Cameron's and she was showing a picture of her kids to Harper to make Harper feel guilty about blowing up the kids lives if she pushed the conversation further and somehow made Daphne take the steps to leave Cameron.

That's clearly not what happened. She was like "Oh yeah, for revenge I fuck my blonde, blue eyed trainer in the city. Do you want to see a picture of him? Whoops, I just showed you a picture of my blue eyed, blonde children by accident. Ain't I a clutz?!"

5 hours ago, dmc said:

Lol not the mob part but she supposedly slipped off a yacht and was weighed down by her clothing.  I actually saw an ID discovery where they essentially proved that she drowned.  

Was she wearing plate armour? How do you "get weighed down by your clothes"?

2 hours ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

I don’t think that this was a setup from the beginning of season 1, though.  I think it is something Mike White thought of later, and that’s why it doesn’t completely track.  Greg certainly didn’t seem like he had a long-standing gay lover in season 1, and it’s far-fetched to believe he and Quentin were actually targeting Tanya that early on.  I think it’s a retcon, and it always struck me as too pat.  But I did think it was done well at the end. I loved this episode.  

There was some weird behaviour in season one though and there were some weird phone calls with this "Bob" in there, too. Those came back this season.

So either Mike White actually had this in mind or he just set up a few weird things and decided how to pick up on them later.

[JenE4]

10 hours ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

So is it definite that the kids aren’t his?  I saw a review that seemed to say this was a fact.  I still doubt she would have more than one kid by another man, even for revenge.  One, maybe, by accident.  But Cameron is a good looking, smart, successful guy, I don’t see why she’d deliberately want to conceive children with some dumb trainer, no matter how blond.

The actress was very good in that scene.  Her face fell, subtly, and there were tears in her eyes.  And then she just, in a fraction of a second, pulled herself back together and asked Ethan to go on the walk.  She came up with a plan right there to “do what you have to do to be ok with it.”  That’s her mantra.  

4 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I maybe the only one but I don't think there's even a trainer in Daphne's life, as she referenced when talking to Harper. I think she was talking about a "trainer" in the metaphorical sense - her message to Harper was get something, or even someone, to distract herself so she's not obsessing about Ethan all the time. Daphne showing the kids to Harper, instead of the "trainer", wasn't a mistake at all by Daphne. She intended to show the picture of her kids to Harper, and her message was, the kids are the reason she stays in her marriage, despite Cameron's transgressions. Her kids are her "distraction" from  obsessing about Cameron all the time, and she's advising Harper to have something similar for herself.

I don’t think this show is as mysterious or as open for interpretation as some others may think. Granted, we’re getting information from each character’s words, actions, and mannerisms (and there is a LOT of looks giving away everything, especially with Daphne and Harper). There’s also a lot of back and forth on characters lying to themselves and others before finally admitting the truth, but I think once they admit it or we see the end result, that’s the whole truth and nothing but the truth being revealed to us. Unequivocally Daphne’s older son is the trainer’s. After her entire spiel about dealing with the cheating by doing what you have to do to make yourself happy and she’s made herself happy with her blonde-haired, blue-eyed trainer, she asks Harper if she’d like to see a picture of her trainer and shows her children. When Harper says that’s just a picture of your (blonde-haired, blue-eyed) kids, the response of, (paraphrasing) “Oh, is it? My mistake.” Cute shrug and smile and not looking for another picture is telling us unequivocally that is the trainer’s child/children. Cameron’s ignoring his son calling for him at first but then eventually putting on a brave smile is telling us that this is also part of their Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell marriage policy that he suspects the child isn’t his. Likewise, I also think that after an entire week of Daphne expounding on the benefits of this marriage policy, and Harper and Ethan both realizing the distrust and jealousy angle isn’t working out for them, that they both “did what they had to do” to make it even by sleeping with each other’s spouses, and that’s why Harper and Ethan finally got the spark back that Daphne and Cameron have—and also why all 4 were able to sit down at dinner together and pretend like nothing happened, following Daphne and Cameron’s advice. The one thing that I will add is that Harper said we started kissing but then you got there—and that’s the only reason why nothing else happened. But Harper was 100% going to fuck Cameron if Ben didn’t start rattling the door. So I think that is true as stated.

Likewise, I think everything we know about Greg and Owen having a murder plot against Tanya is also unequivocally true. I get that Owen didn’t admit on his deathbed that, Alas, yes, Greg and I have been together since the Wyoming dude-ranch days! Nor do we need a flashback reveal to show us the person Greg was saying I love you to is the person who is killing his wife. But the “nephew”completely admitted to Portia that yes, you’re right, and you better get on that plane before the mafia kills you, too. I think the elaborate party, in addition to getting Tanya to trust the drug dealer/killer, was to give them about 50 witnesses to say oh, Owen and Tanya adored each other! No ill will from the last known people to see her alive. They also plied her with LOTS of coke, so if she “accidentally drowned with too many drugs in her system to reasonably save herself” the same witnesses can say, yes, that checks out.

It does seem that all in this thread agree that Lucia completely bilked the DeGrasso men out of €50,000, so no need to point out there is no pimp. She is working all on her own, and her doorman friend helped her out.

Anyway, that was probably the most Tanya ending they could have possibly given her! It was fitting to have her bumble herself into her own death. Somehow she closes her eyes and manages to shoot everyone. She tries to get Owen’s dying words to tell her whether or not Greg is cheating. Then instead of just walking 3 feet behind her to the stairs, she launches herself like 15 feet down in high heels and boink! It was perfect! There’s no way that Tanya, who was entirely incompetent and ditzy in every moment of her life, was going to suddenly get her wits about her and make a sound decision. You’d think Portia would have made better choices than to follow along with Jack all day once her phone was missing. But she was just a young girl who didn’t really know what she was doing, either. Tanya wasn’t smart enough to recognize that her assistant wasn’t that great, either. She was just a lap dog that listened to Tanya’s immediate demands. We never saw her in a position of taking charge of anything. The closest we got to that is asking for Albie’s number at the end because once they both got scammed by seductors, maybe there’s something to be said for the polite and unassuming partner after all.

Also practically everything Owen ever said to Tanya was foreshadowing that he was going to kill her with the Madame Butterfly and killing for beauty soliloquies and practically everything offered to Tanya was with a nudge of “this will be your last ____ {looks between each other} before you leave Palermo/Sicily!”

ETA: okay, one thing left unsaid that I’m making an assumption on is that out of the two couples, Cameron is the only one looking miserable at the airport. So I think he figured out that when Ethan was able to sit down with him and pretend like nothing happened that he was following their marriage advice, and Ethan fucked Cameron’s wife to get back at him.

Edited December 13, 2022 by JenE4
I just remembered Ethan’s name is Ethan and not Ben. So if I missed any, that’s who I mean,