S05.E08: Motherland

[Whimsy]

Quote

June considers a tempting but risky offer from a surprise visitor. Serena hits rock bottom and searches for allies.

Original airdate 10/26/22

[Brn2bwild]

This was a heart-wrenching episode, so filled with pain.  That scene between Luke and June where Luke says: "Nicole and I will never be enough for you, will we?"  

Serena is finally the handmaid we wanted her to be, and yet I feel so much for her not getting to be with her son and having him raised by the monstrous Wheelers.

Nice brief scene with Rita.  On the other hand, we've barely heard from Moira this season.  More poignant scenes with Moira, please!

Edited October 26, 2022 by Brn2bwild

[kitkat343]

Having Hannah rescued and brought to Canada would be interesting because she is old enough to have potentially accepted her new family and truly not want to return.  We saw that with some of the older children who June rescued on the plane- they missed the Gilead elite parents who stole them from their biological parents.  Hannah was scared of June last time we saw them together, and I'm not sure she would want to leave Gilead.  Hannah's adoptive parents seemed to truly love her, and they were portrayed as the ones responsible for June's convenient plot armor since they stated they didn't want Hannah to be devastated when she found out that June was killed.  

And if Hannah doesn't want to go how on earth would June handle being rejected by the daughter she sacrificed everything for?  And how can they keep her in Canada against her will?  Or would they have to let her choose to go back to Gilead?  

These are much more interesting plot lines than watching June stare endlessly into the camera (I'd also like to see more of the experiences of Naomi Putnam and the other wives  to see if they regret the society they live in but I'll take whatever interesting plot I can get)

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

Having Hannah rescued and brought to Canada would be interesting because she is old enough to have potentially accepted her new family and truly not want to return.  We saw that with some of the older children who June rescued on the plane- they missed the Gilead elite parents who stole them from their biological parents.  Hannah was scared of June last time we saw them together, and I'm not sure she would want to leave Gilead.  Hannah's adoptive parents seemed to truly love her, and they were portrayed as the ones responsible for June's convenient plot armor since they stated they didn't want Hannah to be devastated when she found out that June was killed.  

And if Hannah doesn't want to go how on earth would June handle being rejected by the daughter she sacrificed everything for?  And how can they keep her in Canada against her will?  Or would they have to let her choose to go back to Gilead?  

These are much more interesting plot lines than watching June stare endlessly into the camera (I'd also like to see more of the experiences of Naomi Putnam and the other wives  to see if they regret the society they live in but I'll take whatever interesting plot I can get)

Hannah is a child. Parents can take kids wherever they want “against their wills.” 

[Quilt Fairy]

"Do you have an irony deficiency?"

"Gilead's gonna Gilead."

Someone's been writing some good lines.  And of course, Commander Lawrence is the best at snark.

[kitkat343]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Hannah is a child. Parents can take kids wherever they want “against their wills.” 

They can legally take her anywhere they'd like, but part of the reason why courts allow children Hannah's age to have a say in custody is that otherwise they'd keep running away.  It would be pretty hard for Luke and June to keep a 12 year old in Canada against her will given the weird no man's land thing that's going on right now.  

[chocolatine]

Is anyone else worried that Hannah is going to end up getting killed in the "raid" that Tuello is planning? The show has been renewed for one more season, so there's no way we're getting a happy ending now.

The scene between June and Serena at the detention center was fantastic - Serena finally getting a taste of her own medicine. I have no doubt though that she'll figure out a way to escape with Noah before long.

ETA: I've never been a fan of Lawrence's and think that the New Bethlehem plan is stupid. He's already failed with Gilead, so why should anyone believe him that next time will be different?

Edited October 26, 2022 by chocolatine

[dmc]

Nick has helped me, not sexually…

I don’t feel bad for Serena.  She called Rita and June, her previous slaves for assistance.  Why doesn’t she call her boyfriend, Tuello?  He’s always free from not helping Handmaids. The Wheelers are insane but to their credit Serena shot someone and kidnapped June, not that the Wheelers care but still…she is dangerous.  

I do trust Lawrence over Tuello but I don’t think trust the rest of Gilead and new Bethlehem sounds crazy. Won’t the rest of Gilead get pissed that there is island of people reading and writing when they can’t? Also what happens if Lawrence dies? 

Not shocked Canadians are protesting refugees, there must be tons leave Gilead…and at some point there’s an issue of jobs, money, resources…and prejudice against immigrants.

Lawrence hates Serena and I am LOVING it.  Do you have an iron deficiency? He knows and he’s twisting the knife. 

I feel for Luke because he’s coming from a place of seeming rationality.  June has been through so much and she’s formed attachments to these toxic people.  Relationships that he can’t possibly understand.

Tuello finally realizing Gilead, a fascist nation is offering more than him.  

June versus Serena.  

“We’re not friends, Serena.”

“I guess I’m a better Christian than you.”BAM!

Finally!

“Look at what happened to Fred and look at you now”

Edited October 26, 2022 by dmc

[Fake Jan Brady]

"Turns out, after all of this, I guess I'm a better Christian than you."

BURN!

I don't know who's teaching at Hannah's fancy school but they can't even design a proper swastika flower bed.

[The Mighty Peanut]

54 minutes ago, Fake Jan Brady said:

"Turns out, after all of this, I guess I'm a better Christian than you."

BURN!

I don't know who's teaching at Hannah's fancy school but they can't even design a proper swastika flower bed.

I feel stupid, I didn't pick up on the swastika imagery. I thought they looked like narrow U's like from a college sweatshirt. I even thought Wife U.

Nazi U makes so much more sense.

[AntFTW]

Well I’m pretty confident that mission to rescue Hannah is going to fail. THT has a way of dragging your soul back to the depths of hell after giving you a glimmer of hope.

[Baltimore Betty]

How did the Wheeler's get custody of Noah? Did I miss that part?  I know what happened in the hospital but how did the Wheeler's get the baby if they are on Gilead's side of things, wouldn't Canada have a list of qualified foster parents, the list of people that went thru training, etc..?

Serena absolutely does suffer from an irony deficiency.

June is a fool if she goes to Bethlehem. Tuello is right, the Putin's will soon take over Bethlehem, that new city will not be strong enough to fend off fascism.  

[blueroses]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Is anyone else worried that Hannah is going to end up getting killed in the "raid" that Tuello is planning? 

Yes. That was my first thought. 

[Black Knight]

6 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Well I’m pretty confident that mission to rescue Hannah is going to fail. THT has a way of dragging your soul back to the depths of hell after giving you a glimmer of hope.

When June was running joyfully back to the house, I honestly expected she'd arrive to find that it'd been firebombed and Luke and/or Moira were dead. Since that didn't happen, like you I now assume something terrible will happen during the raid.

I liked Luke's point about not bringing Nichole into Gilead, and I noticed June didn't argue it. I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead.

It's hard to tell, with the real-world references when the show is set in an alternate timeline, what exactly is going on in the THT universe. Like the point about Gorbachev being followed by Putin. Plus Lawrence was using Hong Kong as an example of how New Bethlehem would be, and was arguing that the more modern New Bethlehem would spread into Gilead, but as we know, in the real world that's not how it's played out with his chosen analogy. Has it not been the same way in the THT universe? Or is the point more that the writers are giving foreshadowing about what we should expect to happen with New Bethlehem? Lawrence was going on about his "400-point plan," which combined with the real world references makes me think he's going to be a big death soon. I'll miss Bradley Whitford, whose delivery of "Do you have an irony deficiency?" was priceless. (And in classic narcissist style, that didn't deter Serena one bit from saying essentially the same thing that provoked Lawrence's comment to June later. I liked the contrast between Lawrence and Serena, between actual self-awareness and narcissism, between genuine remorse and self-pity.)

[dmc]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Is anyone else worried that Hannah is going to end up getting killed in the "raid" that Tuello is planning? The show has been renewed for one more season, so there's no way we're getting a happy ending now.

The scene between June and Serena at the detention center was fantastic - Serena finally getting a taste of her own medicine. I have no doubt though that she'll figure out a way to escape with Noah before long.

ETA: I've never been a fan of Lawrence's and think that the New Bethlehem plan is stupid. He's already failed with Gilead, so why should anyone believe him that next time will be different?

Spoiler

No they need her for the Testaments

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, Black Knight said:

I liked Luke's point about not bringing Nichole into Gilead, and I noticed June didn't argue it. I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead.

Agreed.

New Bethlehem never be real freedom for Nichole if they choose to go. Whatever freedoms the people that will live in New Bethlehem will get can and will likely be taken away the moment it becomes inconvenient for Gilead.

[Redrum]

8 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Hannah is a child. Parents can take kids wherever they want “against their wills.” 

Sure. Makes the kids love Mom and Dad, doesn't it? My sister's sperm donor has the right to take "his kids" two weekends a month no matter if the niece and nephews want to go and I assure you, it is pretty much against their wills and they can and do make some dangerous choices to avoid special time with Bio Dad and enforced time against their will with Bio dad has in no way improved the relationship.

On story point - Hannah is indeed a child who has been told over and over to forget her bio parents and love her new parents who by all reports seem non abusive and loving, only to be ripped from them (losing loving parents for a second time) and forced to a different country to live a lifestyle she's been indoctrated to view as evil.... Yeah, if this rescue happens, I don't see Hannah handling it well. But I am sure for a variety of reasons this raid will fail.

If Gilead was smart, Hannah should be married already, to a carefully chosen younger man as a "show couple".

The New Bethlehem idea is so made of fail, I don't even know where to start but I did like getting some of Lawrence's motivations. Loved the irony crack at Serena. 

For a surprise - no Aunt Lydia torturing Handmaids. 

The Canadian protests seemed overdone and out of the blue. Per earlier seasons it genuinely didn't seem like a significant number of Americans were escaping but now Canada is overwhelmed with Americans?

Edited October 26, 2022 by Redrum

[Cinnabon]

7 hours ago, kitkat343 said:

They can legally take her anywhere they'd like, but part of the reason why courts allow children Hannah's age to have a say in custody is that otherwise they'd keep running away.  It would be pretty hard for Luke and June to keep a 12 year old in Canada against her will given the weird no man's land thing that's going on right now.  

Luke and June are Hannah’s parents. Gilead kidnapped her. 

[Redrum]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Luke and June are Hannah’s parents. Gilead kidnapped her. 

I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement of fact. The issue is that Hannah was kidnapped at age 5 or 6 and hasn't seen her father in 7 years and has only seen her mother in very poor circumstances. She's also been raised to believe her parents were evil sinners - her mother was a whorish handmaid and that everything about the outside world is bad.  Her adoptive parents don't seem to be monsters so ultimately here's Hannah's experiences with governement and parenting.

Age 5-6 - "These are your parents now, Your previous parents were scumbags. Stop crying and get with the program"

Age 12-13 after a successful raid - " These are your parents now. Your previous parents were scumbags. Stop crying and get with the program"

Add in a lot of "all your religious beliefs are completely wrong"

Now, this is no way means *Gilead didn't kidnap her* or that *Luke and June no longer can claim Hannah" but it does mean they're inflicting the same sort of emotional trauma on her. They're her parents so its their *right* (in a way, frankly the legal rights of US citizens in a world where the US effectively ceased to exist is awkward) - but even now in custody cases, a child Hannah's age wouldn't be told "You're a child, These are your parents. They will take you where they please and you will go as you are a child with no rights and no say. Shut up and get with the program."

Mind you, I think this is a theoretical discussion since I doubt Hannah will be rescued. But here's a thought - what if Hannah wants to be called Agnes Mackenzie on legal docs? That's been her name for longer than Hannah Osborne. As parents, are June and Luke ready for that? Or does biology make right - she is their child, she is under eighteen, therefore she will be Hannah Osborne and love them as a *child* should as she is a *child* and her bio parents have the right? 

If they get Hannah back... they aren't really getting five year old Hannah back... they're getting Agnes Mackenzie of Gilead. That's an interesting problem considering June's already serious mental health issues. 

[circumvent]

7 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement of fact. The issue is that Hannah was kidnapped at age 5 or 6 and hasn't seen her father in 7 years and has only seen her mother in very poor circumstances. She's also been raised to believe her parents were evil sinners - her mother was a whorish handmaid and that everything about the outside world is bad.  Her adoptive parents don't seem to be monsters so ultimately here's Hannah's experiences with governement and parenting.

Age 5-6 - "These are your parents now, Your previous parents were scumbags. Stop crying and get with the program"

Age 12-13 after a successful raid - " These are your parents now. Your previous parents were scumbags. Stop crying and get with the program"

Add in a lot of "all your religious beliefs are completely wrong"

Now, this is no way means *Gilead didn't kidnap her* or that *Luke and June no longer can claim Hannah" but it does mean they're inflicting the same sort of emotional trauma on her. They're her parents so its their *right* (in a way, frankly the legal rights of US citizens in a world where the US effectively ceased to exist is awkward) - but even now in custody cases, a child Hannah's age wouldn't be told "You're a child, These are your parents. They will take you where they please and you will go as you are a child with no rights and no say. Shut up and get with the program."

Mind you, I think this is a theoretical discussion since I doubt Hannah will be rescued. But here's a thought - what if Hannah wants to be called Agnes Mackenzie on legal docs? That's been her name for longer than Hannah Osborne. As parents, are June and Luke ready for that? Or does biology make right - she is their child, she is under eighteen, therefore she will be Hannah Osborne and love them as a *child* should as she is a *child* and her bio parents have the right? 

If they get Hannah back... they aren't really getting five year old Hannah back... they're getting Agnes Mackenzie of Gilead. That's an interesting problem considering June's already serious mental health issues. 

True. The whole situation is complex and one only needs to read a little bit about what happens in cults, where some people get out of it by force or by themselves, and then you see people longing to go back, going back, while others completely loathe what they once knew and are happy to be out, sometimes being able to rebuild their lives and find a level of happiness despite the trauma. And everything in between those two extremes

[Brn2bwild]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

Not shocked Canadians are protesting refugees, there must be tons leave Gilead…and at some point there’s an issue of jobs, money, resources…and prejudice against immigrants.

I'm surprised they didn't have a segment of Canadians protesting all along, as would have been the case in real life.  One way to logically show the change would have been for the government to change via election and have the new government be less friendly.

“Look at what happened to Fred and look at you now”

How can Serena be surprised that June was plotting behind her back the entire time, given that June escaped multiple times?

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Agreed.

New Bethlehem never be real freedom for Nichole if they choose to go. Whatever freedoms the people that will live in New Bethlehem will get can and will likely be taken away the moment it becomes inconvenient for Gilead.

Also, Lawrence's big selling point to June was she would be allowed to read and write.  I am sure there will be no access to birth control or electing New Bethlehem's leadership, college educations, jobs that would advance technology or would allow travel outside NB or even be allowed to communicate freely with the outside world although the housing looks nice. 

The problem with Gilead (and there are zillions), is that the founders egos, everyone wants to be the big kahuna so there are power struggles which means personal agendas and such, hard to lead a new country when the founders are comparing the size of their penises. I am sure Nick and Lawrence decided to shoot Putnam publicly to send a message to the others to not eff with them.  Lawrence has an ego, he is not being benevolent in building New Bethlehem, he wants notoriety.

[dmc]

45 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

How can Serena be surprised that June was plotting behind her back the entire time, given that June escaped multiple times?

I think they were supposed to believe that Serena’s intelligence is constantly undermined by her hubris and arrogance.  

[Quickbeam]

Bradley Whitford’s performance was so nuanced. Nice work. 

[Redrum]

7 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

Bradley Whitford’s performance was so nuanced. Nice work. 

Yeah I was impressed.

14 minutes ago, dmc said:

I think they were supposed to believe that Serena’s intelligence is constantly undermined by her hubris and arrogance.  

Agree but at this point, it comes across as Serena willfully sticking her head in the sand.

Another nice point of this episode was Rita acknowledging that she might make a different choice on returning to Gilead if her son was alive. Just for something nice to happen on this show I'd love for Rita's son to turn up alive as a refugee.

[Helena Dax]

I liked it, but I can't stop feeling that now things are only happening just because. I mean, why, why would the Wheelers get Noah's custody? Perhaps Gilead can ask for him, since his parents are from Gilead, but why would Canada give him to the Wheelers? Has Serena told anyone what's the deal with them? Has June?? To me, this part of the story is absolutely bonkers.

I really enjoyed the conversation between Serena and June, although I must say that Serena's situation is due only to Serena's bad choices and June had little to do with it. 

Lawrence was great. I think he's mistaken about the chances of success of New Bethlehem (or he would be, if this were the real world), but I loved all his scenes.

June and Luke as a couple don't work for me at all. Post-Gilead June has changed too much. Perhaps things will be different if they get Hannah back, but without her, June isn't going to let Gilead go, and Luke simply can't understand.

[madpsych78]

2 hours ago, Redrum said:

I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement of fact. The issue is that Hannah was kidnapped at age 5 or 6 and hasn't seen her father in 7 years and has only seen her mother in very poor circumstances. She's also been raised to believe her parents were evil sinners - her mother was a whorish handmaid and that everything about the outside world is bad.  Her adoptive parents don't seem to be monsters so ultimately here's Hannah's experiences with governement and parenting.

Age 5-6 - "These are your parents now, Your previous parents were scumbags. Stop crying and get with the program"

Age 12-13 after a successful raid - " These are your parents now. Your previous parents were scumbags. Stop crying and get with the program"

Add in a lot of "all your religious beliefs are completely wrong"

Now, this is no way means *Gilead didn't kidnap her* or that *Luke and June no longer can claim Hannah" but it does mean they're inflicting the same sort of emotional trauma on her. They're her parents so its their *right* (in a way, frankly the legal rights of US citizens in a world where the US effectively ceased to exist is awkward) - but even now in custody cases, a child Hannah's age wouldn't be told "You're a child, These are your parents. They will take you where they please and you will go as you are a child with no rights and no say. Shut up and get with the program."

Mind you, I think this is a theoretical discussion since I doubt Hannah will be rescued. But here's a thought - what if Hannah wants to be called Agnes Mackenzie on legal docs? That's been her name for longer than Hannah Osborne. As parents, are June and Luke ready for that? Or does biology make right - she is their child, she is under eighteen, therefore she will be Hannah Osborne and love them as a *child* should as she is a *child* and her bio parents have the right? 

If they get Hannah back... they aren't really getting five year old Hannah back... they're getting Agnes Mackenzie of Gilead. That's an interesting problem considering June's already serious mental health issues. 

For me as a child psychologist, THIS is the compelling story.

[Armchair Critic]

It was nice to have an uplifting ending for a change, but knowing this show it won't last.

[belladonna77]

2 hours ago, circumvent said:

True. The whole situation is complex and one only needs to read a little bit about what happens in cults, where some people get out of it by force or by themselves, and then you see people longing to go back, going back, while others completely loathe what they once knew and are happy to be out, sometimes being able to rebuild their lives and find a level of happiness despite the trauma. And everything in between those two extremes

This is the truth.  I grew up very sheltered in a religious cult.  When I left, all my childhood friends no longer spoke to me/shunned me and learning to live in a society that I had been told was evil and wanted use and abuse me left me socially and emotionally behind my peers.  It was really hard to feel like I fit in and I could see why someone like Hannah/Agnes would prefer Gilead to freedom with her true parents in Canada.

[dmc]

52 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

June and Luke as a couple don't work for me at all. Post-Gilead June has changed too much. Perhaps things will be different if they get Hannah back, but without her, June isn't going to let Gilead go, and Luke simply can't understand.

No they don't work on any level.  And they don't have any chemistry which is weird because Moss has chemistry with Fred, Serena, Moira, Rita, Tuello, Emily...basically everyone but Luke.  

Can I make a secret admission, I find Gilead so much more fascinating than Canada even when we are back there for three minutes...I have so many questions...when did they get restaurants?  Why is everything look so sterile?  Why don't they have church services?

Edited October 26, 2022 by dmc

[Redrum]

45 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I liked it, but I can't stop feeling that now things are only happening just because. I mean, why, why would the Wheelers get Noah's custody? Perhaps Gilead can ask for him, since his parents are from Gilead, but why would Canada give him to the Wheelers? Has Serena told anyone what's the deal with them? Has June?? To me, this part of the story is absolutely bonkers.

In theory the Wheelers are Canadian but what I really don't get is why was Serena handed back to the Wheelers when she was being detained for her border crossing crimes? And yeah, Serena is despised etc by everyone at this point but I am pretty sure she can speak up and say "my baby shouldn't go to these people". 

[iMonrey]

3 hours ago, Redrum said:

In theory the Wheelers are Canadian but what I really don't get is why was Serena handed back to the Wheelers when she was being detained for her border crossing crimes? And yeah, Serena is despised etc by everyone at this point but I am pretty sure she can speak up and say "my baby shouldn't go to these people". 

I'm confused about the Wheeler's status as well. When Lawrence was visiting Serena he said the Wheelers had a legal right/claim to Noah. WTF? It seems like the Wheelers are officially citizens of Gilead living on some sort of Gilead outpost in Canada which would be why Serena was sent to live with them after the information/visitor center was closed down. When she wasreleased from custody she was told she would be restricted to Gilead property. So, Canada has properties that belong to Gildead?

I'm not sure I understand who is behind the "military operation" Tuello is talking about either. He is not Canadian, he represents what's left of the American government. I assume there is some sort of American consulate in Toronto and we've heard the reference to "little America" before. Does "little America" have any kind of standing military left, or are they being backed by the Canadian military for this operation?

[Quickbeam]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

No they don't work on any level.  And they don't have any chemistry which is weird because Moss has chemistry with Fred, Serena, Moira, Rita, Tuello, Emily...basically everyone but Luke.  

I also think Moss has real heat with Max/Nick. But not Luke. 

[AntFTW]

Why is Nichole not walking yet?

[dmc]

33 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

I also think Moss has real heat with Max/Nick. But not Luke. 

Agreed

10 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Why is Nichole not walking yet?

Probably Trauma.  Isn’t she at least 15 months 

[circumvent]

Nitpicking as I stat watching this. A few episodes ago we saw June amazed that Mayday existed because they weren't sure they were real. Now she is telling Luke how Lawrence brought Mayday into his house. don't the writers watch the show, read the scripts, think? 

Lawrence: "America is dying. It's an idea that's outlived its usefulness...all of that collapse under the weight of late term capitalism" - prophetic words. More accurately, words that apply to real life, in real time. 

[revbfc]

My anger at June was tempered ONLY by her ability to keep her mouth shut about the possible US move against Gilead.

As for my frustrations with June: did the producers not realize how this storyline would hit differently for people after watching the Russo-Ukraine war for the past 8 months?  The free world is hanging by a thread, planning a comeback, and June just wants to fuck it up for everyone because Hannah is dangled in front of her?   
 

[circumvent]

So, Gorbachev wanted to open up the USSR/Russia but then came Putin and messed it all up for Russia? Do these people even know any history?

Gorbachev did open up the Russian economy, but not because he was a capitalist. Actually, he was a through and through communist and completely devoted to the USSR (later in his life things changed a bit). He saw that he needed cooperation with the rest of the world, he saw the dangers of nuclear weapons, he saw that to modernize the USSR he needed collaboration. After the Glasnost and Perestroika, and the (now broken) promises from the the U.S. , we installed the puppet, Yeltsin the drunk, who was useless to the Russian people and tanked the country. Putin came after him. Putin is not a communist, he is a capitalist that wanted Russia to be part of the western economy but was shunned by the U. S and the rest of the western world. He is an authoritarian, narcissistic but the comparison between Gorbachev and Putin is like comparing apples to bicycles. They didn't fight for and against the same things. They fought for the same things at different times, with different contexts, in a very different world, and the outcomes we can see and experience now.

Lawrence is basically saying that countries modernize, that things get better, in this case thing get better for women. Juxtapose this with what is going on in real life and the irony burns. Which takes us back to his speech about America dying...

Edited October 26, 2022 by circumvent

[AntFTW]

9 hours ago, Redrum said:

Now, this is no way means *Gilead didn't kidnap her* or that *Luke and June no longer can claim Hannah" but it does mean they're inflicting the same sort of emotional trauma on her. They're her parents so its their *right* (in a way, frankly the legal rights of US citizens in a world where the US effectively ceased to exist is awkward) - but even now in custody cases, a child Hannah's age wouldn't be told "You're a child, These are your parents. They will take you where they please and you will go as you are a child with no rights and no say. Shut up and get with the program."

Mind you, I think this is a theoretical discussion since I doubt Hannah will be rescued. But here's a thought - what if Hannah wants to be called Agnes Mackenzie on legal docs? That's been her name for longer than Hannah Osborne. As parents, are June and Luke ready for that? Or does biology make right - she is their child, she is under eighteen, therefore she will be Hannah Osborne and love them as a *child* should as she is a *child* and her bio parents have the right? 

If they get Hannah back... they aren't really getting five year old Hannah back... they're getting Agnes Mackenzie of Gilead. That's an interesting problem considering June's already serious mental health issues. 

I loved reading this because I have no answer for it. My mind when I read this:

It's asking which person's trauma take the priority, Luke's, June's or Hannah? I... don't... know... hmmmm.

[ww92]

15 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Is anyone else worried that Hannah is going to end up getting killed in the "raid" that Tuello is planning? The show has been renewed for one more season, so there's no way we're getting a happy ending now. *snip*

What if there is no raid and Tuello is really some sort of Gilead double agent? I keep thinking there is something more to him and his motives.

12 hours ago, dmc said:

*snip* Not shocked Canadians are protesting refugees, there must be tons leave Gilead…and at some point there’s an issue of jobs, money, resources…and prejudice against immigrants. *snip*

Come to think of it, if Hannah has been in Gilead for 7 years then that means that Luke has been a refugee for about the same amount of time. He lives in a nice house, has cars, has spending money but did they ever say if he works? Shouldn't he have some sort  of job by now and be somewhat self sufficient?

10 hours ago, Black Knight said:

*snip* I liked Luke's point about not bringing Nichole into Gilead, and I noticed June didn't argue it. I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead. *snip*

Yeah, I can't see June and Mrs. Nick (I forgot her name) being all cool sharing him with all of the kids as part of some big, happy  family. Does Lawrence think Nick is going to be the Kody Brown of New Bethlehem?

8 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Also, Lawrence's big selling point to June was she would be allowed to read and write.  I am sure there will be no access to birth control or electing New Bethlehem's leadership, college educations, jobs that would advance technology or would allow travel outside NB or even be allowed to communicate freely with the outside world although the housing looks nice. *snip*

I don't really understand how New Bethlehem is supposed to be different from Gilead,  aside from women being allowed to read and write and no one would be a Handmaid. If it's supposed to be somewhere that everyone can come and and go as they please, marry who they want, etc. then how is that different from Canada? Why not just make plans to overthrow the Gilead government and free everyone to return to a normal life?

[dmc]

15 minutes ago, ww92 said:

*snip* I liked Luke's point about not bringing Nichole into Gilead, and I noticed June didn't argue it. I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead. *snip*

Maybe I misunderstood this but I thought they were living in refugee housing.  Isn’t that why there’s a protest right on the street about immigration?

Every time they showed him in Canada he was looking for June. Maybe he did that and still working…I don’t know.

[greekmom]

I don't see Canadians acting that way about American refugees. I think it's today's politics regarding other things that is seeping into the writer's room. Plus plot contrivance for Lawrence's New Bethlehem.
Speaking of Lawrence's New Bethlehem, give it up Lawrence. I get he wants his ideas to work but i don't understand why he went to the extremist instead of going to the US government first in regards to his ideas about repopulation.  I can tell he doesn't like the extremist ideas or the way Gilead has become.  I would love more of a back story on how and why Lawrence went that way. 
Serena does deserve her just desserts but goddam it, the kid went to the freaking Wheelers?!?!? Those people are cuckoos for cocoa puffs. I mean why couldn't the kid go to some nice Canadian family?  Little Noah's life hangs in the balance with that crazy eye bitch.
Interesting how Luke who hasn't survived Gilead is willing to give up Hannah but June who has survived the worst of the worst that Gilead has thrown at her is willing on a sliver of a promise to go back for Hannah's sake. 
I agree with all the posters. MVP line: "Do you have an irony deficiency?"
I think June did Serena a greater service with the advice she gave her instead of giving in and finding her a Canadian sponsor.  Wonder why Serena hasn't called Tuello - i mean he could probably get her out.
Lawrence is in a dreamland if he feels that he can fix Gilead. The only way to fix it is to burn it to the ground.  Lawrence needs to work with the Americans to get the US back on it's home soil.  I see Nick warning June to stay away with Nichole. 
I wonder if Hannah knows how important piece of the chess board she is.
The end is near and I don't see how this all fits in to what they are planning with the Testaments. I know there is another season but still.  And if that is the case, I maybe on board if they don't follow the book.
 

[bettername2come]

19 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

"Do you have an irony deficiency?"

"Gilead's gonna Gilead."

Someone's been writing some good lines.  And of course, Commander Lawrence is the best at snark.

"And I'm done talking about your breasts." Which sounded more like Josh Lyman than Commander Lawrence, which I have absolutely no problem with. 

7 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

It was nice to have an uplifting ending for a change, but knowing this show it won't last.

I didn't trust that end at all. I'm expecting a raid to go horribly, horribly wrong. They had a plane sound and I was like "someone's going to drop bombs on these children. 

[MichaelaRae]

Dear Handmaid’s Tale producers: you can TRY to make me feel sorry for Serena for making her face 1/10th of the horror she rained down on women in Gilead. But it will NEVER, EVER happen. I have absolutely NO patience in fiction OR REAL LIFE for sociopaths who can’t relate to the hell they rained down on other people until they experience a fraction of it. It’s called empathy. Unless you’re a sociopath, it’s NOT. HARD.

Edited October 27, 2022 by MichaelaRae

[Andyourlittledog2]

15 hours ago, dmc said:

The Wheelers are insane but to their credit Serena shot someone and kidnapped June, not that the Wheelers care but still…she is dangerous. 

And stole their car.

I don't think Lawrence is going to be around long enough to ensure New Bethlehem's success. He's not young, and he is outnumbered on the council by power hungry true believers and corrupt users for whom Gilead works just fine. I don't think he has the lasting juice to make the kind of promises he is making. And I think Nick knows it.

I understand June wanting to get to Hannah. But she treats Nicole like a misplaced footnote 90 percent of the time. To even consider dragging little Nicole into Gilead under these circumstances/any circumstances is such a betrayal of the younger daughter. She has two children. I don't think that even registers with her most of the time.

I think June is nuts for even considering it no matter how many rationalizations the writer's room tries to give her.

But, as Lawrence might say, June's gonna June.

[Andyourlittledog2]

I went back and looked at the garden and that is definitely not a swastika. It's just two Us looped together.

I thought it was interesting and predictable that 'wives school' would have them learning how to garden, since that seems to be the only activity permitted to wives. They can't read, go anywhere or do anything and the Martha's take care of household tasks and meals. I always think it is such a sterile existence, so incredibly boring. Wives are supposed to be keepers at home, avoiding gossiping with other wives... These women have no life at all really. The large silent houses are creepy.

When Mrs Wheeler was talking about letting the baby 'cry it out' I was reminded of the very severe child rearing techniques advocated and practiced in the conservative christian world (some of it).  Blanket training and spanking were to start at six months old and I've seen it. I knew a man who took a leather strap and would gently bob it on his under six month old son's hands whenever he reached for something. I asked why he would do that and he told me that his son needed to get used to the feel of the strap. That is awful, but it is part of the techniques taught. The whole idea is that children are born untamed and wild and kinda evil and parents have to train independence and curiosity and their sense of self out of them so that they can be perfect little robots subject to their elders and by extension God. It makes the child-parent relationship basically a war and not a cooperative one. Mercy has no place because you are ordered to train your child for God. Etc. So the 'cry it out' method makes sense in this worldview. It's cruel and horrible, but it fits.

ETA: I want to say that I am differentiating the 'cry it out' that Mrs Wheeler was talking about to the one used to get a baby to sleep through the night.  What Mrs Wheeler was doing was doing struck me as much more in line with the tough and rigid rules for all of child care, not just helping a baby to soothe itself and go back to sleep. Whatever your take on that method may be, it is a far cry from the techniques and worldview I am talking about here.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Andyourlittledog2

[Quilt Fairy]

38 minutes ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

And stole their car.

Not just stole it, she wrecked it.

[madpsych78]

I can see Serena being Team New Bethlehem actually. Gilead values but she can read and write!

Lawrence needs a Lawrence-centric episode where we can get more into his backstory. I felt like we got a sliver of that in this episode. He may or may not be suffering from his own irony deficiency because he is the Gorbachev of Gilead. 

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

"And I'm done talking about your breasts." Which sounded more like Josh Lyman than Commander Lawrence, which I have absolutely no problem with. 

I am the opposite. Find Josh Lyman insufferable. Lawrence was interesting when he was brooding, I don't need more Josh.

1 hour ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I went back and looked at the garden and that is definitely not a swastika. It's just two Us looped together.

I think the image was there to convey the fascism that exists in Gilead, even if not explicit.

Lawrence is just another Gilead sociopath. He might see that things went too far but he still believes int he model, he said that it worked because there are babies again. His new project is not really different, the patriarchy still rules and the new families will be mostly composed of young girls that were groomed in Gilead, without any sense of individuality, and who would have to learn how to read and write, plus how to be a real person. They are not inmates captured in the woods, brought by force to Gilead, silenced and raped. They were raised t believe those things are "normal". They would not want to leave Gilead, someone like Hannah would have to be kidnapped, again, and taken there. Plus, she would have to be married to someone that Lawrence can control. It is too much story, I don't know why they had to throw that in there

That's one of the instances where the differences with the book are so obvious, how they butchered Margaret Atwood's work

[Fake Jan Brady]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Why is Nichole not walking yet?

She's exhausted from being kept awake by the protestors.