S01.E10: The Black Queen

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I am not sure why the writers thought bookending the first and last eps with dead babies was elegant. The ep 1 death was very necessary.  This one was not.

It was necessary because Rhaenyra being in labor prevented her to make necessary action swiftly and thus showed one of the female ruler's handicaps. And when she forbade Daemon to act without her decision, however wisely it seemed in order to keep peace, sending envoys in order to get allies was delayed for days which gave the Greens one more advantage.

[go4luca]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Daemon singing a lullaby to Vermithor tho, so cute. 

Not sure what the purpose was, but cute in a 'hit a bum note and you'll be incinerated' way.

I found it more pragmatic than cute.  A true dragon lord thinking ahead while trying not to be fried by a dragon he is not bonded to. I believe Vermithor to be the only dragon close in size to Vhagar?  Note the sheer size of his head.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I kind of wonder how next season will develop the Greens, since the writers tipped their hands so much by favoring the Blacks. In the land of the Blacks, parents and children love each other. Promises are kept. There's usually no gratuitous cruelty.

In the land of the Greens, the king is a rapist, Alicent's two head honchos are psychos, and Aemond killed Luke. Alicent does have nice feet I guess.

Personal relationships don't count in the power struggle. 

So far, Otto has shown far more skill as shown by Aegon's swift crowning and especially securing allies. Instead, unlike Rhaenyra said, she was *not* trained by Viserys to be the Queen and she decided to wast years not being present in the council and thus also by her father's deathbed.

Luke's death, if it's been believed to be caused by Aemond (but who even know he  was there with his dragon?), could of course influence on some lords' mind but probably the benefits Otto has promised them for alliance, will be the stronger motive.   

But Rhaenyra has now a motive to go war, and she has Gorlys' fleet and more dragons. 

[Oscirus]

yea theyre trying to make the blacks the underdogs, theyve failed.  Blacks got control of the sea and have every major dragon not named vhagar and if they get the honor driven starks, thats the north, which would be game over.

[go4luca]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

He was courting Vermithor to be his side piece?

I wondered about this.  In this age (HOTD), has anyone ever been able to claim more than one dragon?  We know Danaerys could. Why couldn’t Damian possibly manage it?

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I wondered about this.  In this age (HOTD), has anyone ever been able to claim more than one dragon?  We know Danaerys could. Why couldn’t Damian possibly manage it?

Dany only rode drogon, the other two were just her kids

[bunnyblue]

Am I to understand that Lord Borros Baratheon of Storm's End does not know how to read? Is that why he shouted for his maester to come read Rhaenyra's message? If so, how the hell does a lord of a castle and an entire region not know how to read?

I'm such a sucker for all things Stark that when Cregan Stark and Winterfell got name dropped multiple times, I smiled like a fool and had to rewind those scenes. I really really hope we get to see Jace's mission to Winterfell next season. 

While Aegon's Painted Table looks amazing all lit up, it also looks smaller than it did in GOT, especially in the early seasons when Stannis held council meetings around it. 

My heart ached as Rhaenyra said goodbye to her sons. Luke looked scared and unsure of himself, while Jace looked far more confident, and Rhaenyra knew her youngest needed some extra reassurance. No doubt Rhaenyra & Jace will feel guilt for sending Luke on his mission. Dany's dragon theme playing as the 3 dragons departed Dragonstone was chef's kiss. 

[go4luca]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

I have a question about when Daemon was courting Vermithor and you can see Daemon in the dragon's eye and the dragon in Daemon's eye, is that supposed to mean that Daemon is a full dragon in human form.

I saw it as their moment of connection.  

Although I read all the books for GOT, I haven’t yet read any books relating to HOTD, so I could also be completely off my rock.

[DigitalCount]

I can't believe it. I had wanted those four kids to be happy together, and now Luke is dead. First Aemond took Vhagar, the dragon Rhaena was to claim, and then he took her betrothed. I hope the speculation is true and she gets whatever the dragon was that Daemon was singing to, so she'll have a relatively more equal playing field. Am I right in understanding that that's the second biggest dragon after Vhagar? I hope she returns the favor.

I've seen people mentioning that the Greens are almost entirely all much less honorable and brave than the Blacks and I agree. Any support I could have for the Greens is just various things about the Blacks that I don't like; there's nothing that actually makes the Greens seem good or supportable in and of themselves. They're all selfish, cowardly, scheming bullies. The only person with any redeeming qualities on their side is Helaena, and she's only there due to geography. It doesn't seem likely that they'll be consulting her for military advice, especially since they still don't seem to have figured out that she's a prophet.

I don't know why I got attached to Luke so quickly, as well as the JLBR group. Maybe it's because I'm a younger brother as well, and he was so innocent looking. He didn't want to fight. He was obeying his mother's instructions. But this is the world of Thrones, so that was really just naïve of me.

As was eating during this episode. Talk about a huge mistake...

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Corlys made it back to life! Never doubted him; but now he has lost his heir. Rhaena gets Driftmark now.  I feel for her as well, losing her betrothed.

Joffrey is still around to be heir, and if they really want to he can step in as her new betrothed just like Tommen did with Margery.  Of course, that assumes his side wins. Lose and he’ll be proclaimed a bastard.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

Am I to understand that Lord Borros Baratheon of Storm's End does not know how to read? Is that why he shouted for his maester to come read Rhaenyra's message? If so, how the hell does a lord of a castle and an entire region not know how to read?

It's no wonder because they are barbarians.

Messenges could be sent also by word of mouth and actually it was the safest way.  

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

5. Given the choice of Rhae or Aegon to be the ruler, most anybody who knows them would have to say Rhae would far far better for the job.

It was only in the this episode that Rhaenyra showed *any* quality fit for the ruler, namely putting the realm's good before her personal desires which so far has been most important to her as well as not acting on impulse like Daemon was going to do.

However, it remains to be seen if she has qualities to win the power game where her main opponent is Otto.

I don't care which side will win because I can't see any of "characters" as humans or interesting but just pieces on the chess bord and therefore this show is boring. 

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Am I to understand that Lord Borros Baratheon of Storm's End does not know how to read? Is that why he shouted for his maester to come read Rhaenyra's message? If so, how the hell does a lord of a castle and an entire region not know how to read?

While Aegon's Painted Table looks amazing all lit up, it also looks smaller than it did in GOT, especially in the early seasons when Stannis held council meetings around it. 

Yep, that's the implication. I suppose his maester does a lot of the administrative work with help from a steward and/or anyone else more educated than their head of house.

Yeah, you can tell it's a different prop, but it's also in a different, much bigger room. They made Rhaenyra's bedchamber look like the Painted Table room from GoT-era, the idea being I guess that Stannis had it moved for some reason.

Well, poor Luke got his wish in the worst way. He'll never have to Lord of the Tides or see everyone else dead because Grandpa Corlys outlived him after all.

"All the symbols of legitimancy", Otto? Because the king's chosen heir is wearing her father's crown. And saying Stark, Tully, Baratheon is less impressive when you finish not with "are already sworn to us" but rather just saying they're all considering it. 

[Cristofle]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

Even though he threatened Lucerys and Sir Boros admonished him to let him go, he could easily spin it as him being the victim.  He wanted to show Luke that his dragon was bigger and stronger, just a harmless flyby, to remind him of who was in power.  Then for some reason, Luke had his dragon attack his.  So his dragon killed the other dragon in self defense.

I have no doubt that Alicent and Aemond will come away from this incident acting like Rhaenyra’s side attacked first.  

Whatever Alicent thinks is irrelevant, tbh. It's what the realm will believe that matters, and given that everyone at Storm's End saw Aemond instigate the fight (Aemond is not supposed to do anything to someone under a peace banner and there's no way he doesn't know that - he's not supposed to start a fight, he's not supposed to "show" Luke anything, it's not the time), no one else will care what he has to say. And rightfully, no one except for MAYBE Alicent is going to think even beginning a fight with the largest dragon in the realm against tiny little Arrax could have ended any other way. I actually don't think he'll claim self-defense - I think it's too much of a blow to his ego that he couldn't control Vhagar. I think he's going to claim he intentionally killed Luke. It's a gamble - he'll likely be seen as violent, careless, and politically suicidal. This will be seen along the lines of Joffrey killing Ned Stark, which everyone, including Cersei and Tywin, thought was profoundly stupid and guaranteed a war. Except Aemond will be judged even more harshly as a kinslayer. But I still think that's the path he'll choose, instead of acknowledging he does not have real control over Vhagar. 

[BonnieD]

Quote

Luke's death, if it's been believed to be caused by Aemond (but who even know he  was there with his dragon?), could of course influence on some lords' mind but probably the benefits Otto has promised them for alliance, will be the stronger motive.   

No witness no proof. Who would even find the remains in those jagged mountains, and if they did, it would have taken days. AND, who's to say it wasn't one of the wild dragons that attacked? 

Would have been better to have the larger dragon bump the smaller, making the boy fall to his death as if by accident, but then I don't believe Aemond intended to actually kill Luke considering his expression after the fact.

[Sakura12]

I don't think Rhaenyra and Daemon have to know Aemond killed Luc. They might think it was the Baratheon's. That's is who he was going to see. They didn't know Aemond was already there. Or if the Baratheon's don't want to be blamed for kinslaying they could've wanted to tell them it was Aemond.

Plus we don't know if any lesser Lords or people at Stormsend were loyal to Viserys and they are the ones that told Daemon that Aemond threatened Luc in the castle. 

Rhaenyra knows Otto and knows he's not trustworthy, so taking him at his word is stupid. We saw them plotting to kill her and her kids. There would be nothing stopping them for getting Rhaenyra to bend the knee to Aegon then killing them all later to really secure the throne.

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Plus we don't know if any lesser Lords or people at Stormsend were loyal to Viserys and they are the ones that told Daemon that Aemond threatened Luc in the castle. 

Yeah, while we don't know exactly what Daemon heard or who he heard it from, I think the fairly clear inference from the final shot of Rhaenyra that she knows her son is dead and that the Greens are responsible. They really don't need any more proof than that - this isn't a modern court with "beyond a reasonable doubt" or something. No showdown in a castle remains a secret, so people will know Aemond threatened Luke and Luke refused to participate and tried to leave, and Aemond went after him, and now he's dead. That's all Rhaenyra and Daemon need to know. 

[RobertDeSneero]

I think the motivations of Rhaenys become clearer.  She is ultimately loyal to Corlys and it's not her place to pick a side.  She might try to influence him, but it is his decision.  She goes where he goes and she knew him well enough to know that he wasn't guaranteed to be with the Blacks instead of the Greens.  She didn't roast the Greens and she didn't bend the knee to Rhaenyra because she didn't know yet which side Corlys and, thus, she would support.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Rhaenys: Viserys is dead.

Daemon: Even though last time I saw him he wasn’t simply at death’s door but well inside the hallway, admiring the carpet and commenting on the hatstand, I am suddenly certain that he was murdered by that bitch Alicent! Who has nothing to gain and a lot to lose from his death but women are weird, man.

Told you Rhaenyra hadn't bothered building her faction and would only look for allies now. Your father prepared you to rule, indeed, Rhaenyra. You are just as inept as he was. Except for the silly remark about Alicent the murderer and randomly trying to strangle Rhaenyra (what was up with that and why did she shrug it off this so easily?), Daemon was the rational one in this episode. Daemon! Why is Rhaenyra such a believer in a vague prophecy anyway?

"I wouldn't start a war"? Earth to Rhaenyra, breaking an oath to your liege and his selected heir, then trying to kill everyone who wouldn't do the same is the ultimate betrayal in this pseudo-medieval world. You can either submit or fight, you can't just wait for the enemy faction to kill even more of your supporters.

Otto was also taking a hefty dose of the stupid pills. He commits a vile betrayal and then comes to negotiate, knowing full well Daemon is a hothead who would probably try to murder him. He should thank his lucky stars that Rhaenyra is an idiot and the show is trying so hard to distance her from every unpleasant thing her faction ever does.

Hey, they mentioned Seasmoke. Apparently that beast isn't too bothered by Laenor's absence and has been chilling in Driftmark all along.

This Baratheon guy was way too contemptuous towards a faction that has about a dozen dragons. I guess they wanted to portray him as a sort of Walder Frey kind of a dick but Frey was sitting in an almost impregnable fortress while lord Baratheon is at the mercy of the Blacks, should they decide to take umbrage and burn his castle to the ground.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[sacrebleu]

8 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Stupid Baratheons. Always were feckless I guess. Hopefully the Starks will live up to their oath. That’s their reputation.

Yeah, that was my take, the Baratheons were always boorish, good in a fight or a hunt, but not so much with the diplomacy. Especially the bit of business calling the master, I guess he can't even read.

What wasn't clear is, what happens to Otto? He was left waiting for Rhanearhys decision, is he stuck being a POW like poor Edmure Tully? I'm really hoping he spends the war in a dungeon. ( Especially after poor Luke's death) 

[Haleth]

The image of poor little Luke flying his cute li'l dragon while we get a glimpse of the enormous one flying right over him was terrifying.  Goodness, he didn't stand a chance in that fight.

Whose dragon (Vermithor?) was Daemon singing to?

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I mean, I think he WAS bloodthirsty, but in a stupid way.

That.

Of course from the Ottto's POV, Rhaenyra and her kids had to be killed in the end, but for now it was important to lull her to security. That's why Otto let Alicent make a generous offer to Rhaenyra and, as we saw, it wasn't impossible that she wouldn't have accepted in order to keep peace and unity.

Aemond must have known at least that her mom's intentions although not necessarily Otto's schemes in the future, but he let his personal vendetta matter more than the vital interets of his family (however he sees his older brother, his destiny and even life is bound with his).   

[Sakura12]

I'm hoping we see some of the fire young Rhaenyra had. Because we have seen even then when she didn't want to go on the hunt, but when she was attacked she fought back with a vengeance. Which is what we hopefully see next season. 

[Spartan Girl]

Take a Targaryen woman’s child from her, and there will be hell to pay.

Even if Aemond didn’t mean to kill him, well, what did you THINK was going to happen, dumbass?! Playing with dragons will like playing with the atomic bomb, no matter how well trained you think they are.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[proserpina65]

9 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Here's my take on Baratheon's tantrum about Luke not coming with gifts or offers: if he were truly honorable his oath would be enough.

If Borros Baratheon were all that honorable, neither side would've been wooing him.  They'd both have known he would honor his father's oath and support Rhaenyra.

[Uncle JUICE]

First of all, Storm's End looks to me like a somehow shittier version of Pike. 

And I'm not sure how people would NOT think (which is essentially "know" as far as small folk go) that not only did Aemond and Vaghar commit violence under the banner of peace, which is a major no-no, but Aemond is a kinslayer. The world of the show has always held that there are none more accursed than a kinslayer, so I'd expect a major league issue for Aemond. And as far as how they'd know he did it, the evidence is pretty clear. First, both he and Jace were seen simultaneously at Storm's End. Second, both had words and clearly Aemond was going to assault Jace. Third, you're going to find pieces of a dragon. Even if you want to assume no one on the ground saw these two dragons going at each other, how many wild (unaccounted for) dragons are there that are large enough to chomp an adolescent dragon in two?

Kinda underwhelmed by this episode, not going to lie. I thought it dragged in a couple of places (maybe one or two less Rhaenyra graphically miscarrying, and the Arrax / Vaghar tension was one scene too long). I like what it accomplished, I just wish it had been a little tighter in spots. 

[paigow]

13 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Am I to understand that Lord Borros Baratheon of Storm's End does not know how to read?

Amazing that Stannis ended up a Grammar Nazi...

Edited October 24, 2022 by paigow

[Meredith Quill]

6 hours ago, go4luca said:

I found it more pragmatic than cute.  A true dragon lord thinking ahead while trying not to be fried by a dragon he is not bonded to. I believe Vermithor to be the only dragon close in size to Vhagar?  Note the sheer size of his head.

Heh, I was being facetious using 'cute' 😉

[The Kings Foot]

8 hours ago, yellowfred said:

I thought it was interesting how Rhaenyra and Team Black didn't think to offer anything to the Baratheons to gain their loyalty.  I feel like that's an aspect of politics that the Targaryens are maybe not that well versed in, while the Greens/Hightowers would think of it as second nature, because that's how you gain allies when you're not counting on your flying death machines to keep them in line.

Team Black are unfortunately led by the two who truly believe Targyreons are superior (Rhaenyra and Daemon)  "We do what we want"  "Targeryons are closer to the Gods"

While Team Green is led by a guy plotting to take the throne for years.

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

"All the symbols of legitimancy", Otto? Because the king's chosen heir is wearing her father's crown. And saying Stark, Tully, Baratheon is less impressive when you finish not with "are already sworn to us" but rather just saying they're all considering it. 

The one mistake Otto made. He should have simply stayed quiet.  But that let Rhaenyra know that at least 3 major Lords were still up for grabs. 

[Roseanna]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The world of the show has always held that there are none more accursed than a kinslayer

I have learned that only here. I have *not* noticed that this has been made clear in this show. And because people have killed each other all the time, it's difficult to regard some killing worse than others (f.ex. Daemon killing his former wife).

[Cristofle]

33 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That.

Of course from the Ottto's POV, Rhaenyra and her kids had to be killed in the end, but for now it was important to lull her to security. That's why Otto let Alicent make a generous offer to Rhaenyra and, as we saw, it wasn't impossible that she wouldn't have accepted in order to keep peace and unity.

Aemond must have known at least that her mom's intentions although not necessarily Otto's schemes in the future, but he let his personal vendetta matter more than the vital interets of his family (however he sees his older brother, his destiny and even life is bound with his).   

I think Otto is going to be furious. Alicent probably initially will be as well, but she might later attempt to cover for him. Aegon probably won't care. But Otto? Otto is more like Tywin. Tywin didn't care that Ned Stark was dead, but he knew it was a fatal error in political judgment that Joffrey killed him when he did. Killing Luke now is a similar move. Sure, Otto wants to kill Rhaenyra and the children, but not like this. Not killing Luke FIRST. Luke is not a huge target, not a big threat. Killing him first will only enrage Rhaenyra and compel her to let HER most threatening player, Daemon, off his leash. It's also going to look bad. Kinslaying automatically makes a person deeply untrustworthy. Like, this is not the way to get the Starks or the Tullys on their side. If Aemond had started and ended his little tiff in the castle, whatever. He didn't come off great to the Baratheons, but it wasn't any kind of game changer. However, Aemond decided to play a profoundly dangerous game that anyone could have foreseen was likely to end in Luke's death. He behaved like a spoiled child, not a grown man who is more worthy of the throne than Aegon. I mean, a lot of people are more worthy than Aegon, lol, but looking at this from the perspective of the realm, Aemond chose a petty childhood vendetta over the good of his family. He acted without much of a thought to the consequences of said actions. This is not the behavior of a real player in the game of thrones - it's the behavior of a malicious child.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Satisfying finale.

• Daemon assuming Viserys was murdered was just plain ridiculous
• The stillbirth scene went on way too long - we get it
• I want the table map as my wallpaper
• King Zachgalifinakis Baratheon seemed rather airheaded
• I thought for sure that Luke was a misdirect and he would escape. and that his brother would end up dead, but I understand
• Was waiting for "Burn them all" as the closing line

Edited October 24, 2022 by Tachi Rocinante

[Nicmar]

10 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

My boo Aemond done fucked up.  Still, how cool was that sapphire?  (Yeah, yeah, evil person, going to hell.  Whatever, I don't care.  Not the first time I've rooted for the villain and probably not the last either.)

Was that a dragon's eye?

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think Rhaenyra and Daemon have to know Aemond killed Luc. They might think it was the Baratheon's. That's is who he was going to see. They didn't know Aemond was already there. Or if the Baratheon's don't want to be blamed for kinslaying they could've wanted to tell them it was Aemond.

How could they not?  Luce's dragon was basically eaten.  I don't think anything else in Westeros can eat a small dragon except a big dragon.  His poor wings fell to the ground as his body was in pieces...  

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I also hope one of Daemon's daughters steals their mother's dragon back.

Doesn't work that way.  Aemond claimed Vhagar, so she's his as long as he's alive.

8 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Ewan acted the hell out of the “WTF have I DONE?!?” moments. 

However, I don’t view Luce’s death as an accident. Aemond was spoiling for a fight from the moment he knew Lucerys had arrived. He taunted him, threatened him, with his demands for an “eye for an eye.”

Luce made it abundantly clear he was there as a messenger only and made it clear he did not want any part of a fight. He literally flew away on Arrax. 

Aemond could have let him go but he chose to chase after him on the biggest, strongest, most battle-tested dragon in the world. That it ended badly with Luce and Arrax dying (and RIP to that sweet boy, who died in service to his mother, and his poor, young dragon) could hardly be a total surprise to Aemond. More of WTF did you THINK would happen? 

It wasn't the intended end of the encounter, although, yes, Aemond should've seen it coming.  So because Luke's death at that particular juncture was an unintended consequence, it was technically an accident.  An easily avoided one if Aemond had just let it fucking go or even been satisfied with basically making Luke run from Storm's End like a scared little boy.

I think his only real choice at this point is to lean into being a kinslayer because no one is going to believe he didn't mean to kill Luke.

8 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't understand where all these extra dragons have come from all of a sudden. Some of the kids haven't had one, but if there are more, then why? They could have at least tried to approach one before now, couldn't they? 

The problem with approaching an unattached dragon is that if it doesn't accept you, it will probably fry you to a crisp.  I can see not trying to claim one of the wild dragons (presumably ones which hatched but never accepted a rider); they've been living on their own without accepting any human authority and would be seriously dangerous.

The ones like Vermithor who previously had riders should be claimable, but it's been a long time (Vermithor was last ridden by Viserys' grandfather) so they're still pretty unfriendly.  I'd be reluctant to approach them.  We saw Vermithor's initial reaction to Daemon, who's an experienced dragon rider; just imagine what might happen to someone like Rhaena.

8 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Aemond started it. Again. He goaded Luke in the hall, then flew out after him after the Baratheon lord tried to give him safe passage home with the answer. This isn't like the eye debate, IMO, it's way more obvious. After Aemond did that, then both lost control of their dragons, but if Aemond hadn't pursued him, then Luce would have just gone home. His death was like the definition of felony murder - a (usually) accidental killing that takes place while committing a different crime. Maybe it was ultimately an accident, but it never would have happened if Aemond wasn't already harassing him.

Oh absolutely.  While I disagree that he started the fight where he ended losing an eye, THIS time Aemond started it.  Luke was leaving when Aemond stopped him.  He could've and should've just let the boy walk away but he couldn't help harassing him.

Obviously there's no hope of a diplomatic solution now, but I do wonder if Aemond's actions cost the Greens the support of Borros Baratheon.  (Not asking for book answers, just speculating.)  Because that would be incredibly stupid and, ahem, short-sighted, of him.

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Revenge for losing his eye, which he lost because he was about to bash Jace's head with a rock.

And he was about to bash Jace's head with a rock during a fight he didn't start.  Look, I'm not going to defend Aemond's actions at Storm's End because as much as I love him as a character, that was stupid and he absolutely should've anticipated something like that outcome.  But the fight at Driftmark after he claimed Vhagar was not solely his fault.  He was being attacked by all four of his relatives in that scene and his actions (as opposed to his words) were in self-defense.

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Then Jace fell to the ground and dropped the dagger, and Aemond stood over him with the rock.

I just watched that scene yesterday - it was a fight and they were all at fault.

7 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

I wonder if the Baratheons will change sides now given Aemond's killing of his nephew.  No word-parsing here.  He killed him.  And the Baratheons have more than enough reason to believe it was intentional given Aemond's actions in their castle. 

Perhaps they'll determine Aemond, and by extension, the Greens, are unstable psychopaths who can't be trusted and to whom he doesn't want any of his daughters betrothed?  And then, maybe Baratheon will reverse course and decide to uphold his father's original oath to Rhaenyra?  Maybe?

I like it's a possibility.  Not the only one, but maybe.

7 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

One thing I don't really understand - how does anyone (other than Aemond) know what happened to Luke and his dragon?  Do the dragons communicate with each other and then with their riders?  The air fight certainly happened out of sight of anyone else.  So if Aemond just plays dumb and says he went for a ride to clear his head, how would anyone know different?  For all anyone knows, Luke could have ridden his dragon into a mountain in the storm and disappeared,

So how does everyone know what happened so quickly?

Possibly some of Luke's body/his dragon washed ashore quickly afterwards?  Everyone in the Baratheon's hall saw what happened there and knew Aemond followed Luke, so I think they'd be able to at least guess at what happened.  Now, how they found out so quickly at Dragonstone is another question - maybe by raven?

[Cristofle]

I also don't think the Baratheons have any intention of taking the fall for Luke's death. This probably won't make them change allegiances, but it's not a good look for a young prince under a peace banner to die at their hands. I think they already will not have hesitated to throw Aemond straight under the bus. 

[Sakura12]

11 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

How could they not?  Luce's dragon was basically eaten.  I don't think anything else in Westeros can eat a small dragon except a big dragon.  His poor wings fell to the ground as his body was in pieces...  

Do they know that? Where did they even fall? And who found them? 

[AntFTW]

42 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

And he was about to bash Jace's head with a rock during a fight he didn't start.  Look, I'm not going to defend Aemond's actions at Storm's End because as much as I love him as a character, that was stupid and he absolutely should've anticipated something like that outcome.  But the fight at Driftmark after he claimed Vhagar was not solely his fault.  He was being attacked by all four of his relatives in that scene and his actions (as opposed to his words) were in self-defense.

I don’t disagree. My point really was that he lost his eye because, although he didn’t start that fight on Driftmark all on his own, I felt that he escalated it to the point of losing his eye. There was no attempt to de-escalate it, not that I expect that much from children. However, once Jace was on the ground and no dagger in his hand, that was an off-ramp for Aemond drop the rock, and walk away but he didn’t… instead he kept approaching a completely vulnerable Jace raising this rock up. Again, not that I have such a high expectation of kids de-escalating situations.

Edited October 24, 2022 by AntFTW

[jeansheridan]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think we have seen any sign that the Greens generally go back on their word, and further, they don't have any incentive to here. "Surrender your claim and you get to keep what you already have" does not cost the Greens anything to maintain.

Well, except we have Larys who assassinates people if Alicent indicates it needs doing. And Larys strongly suggested to Otto he could help him out too. Otto specifically is not to be trusted. He's good at looking respectable on the surface. Seduce a grieving king but make it official. Aegon crowned in the proper way with all the symbols of power. Play nice at a very uncomfortable family dinner. Etc. Rhynaers is lucky he didn't just smother her in the night. 

[tennisgurl]

How in the seven hells am I supposed to wait two years to see what happens next? How in the seven hells am I supposed to wait two years to see what happens next?!?

Shit, the Greens should be pissing themselves, the look on Rhaenyra's face can met faces even more than dragons fire. Poor sweet Luke, RIP. What a horrible way to go, and all because of an escalation between the dragons that neither of their riders wanted. I know that something had to happened to fully escalate the conflict into a full bloody civil war, but I hate that we have to lose poor Luke like this. 

Seriously, how am I supposed to wait so long to find out what happens next?

[scarynikki12]

I think the only thing Aemond can do is claim he killed Luke intentionally and hope his new title of kinslayer scares the rest of the realm to the point where they hesitate to stand against the Greens. No one wants to go against a psycho who ran down and ordered his dragon to eat his nephew. I bet he went straight to the Grand Maester upon returning to Kings Landing to send the ravens to Dragonstone and the other lords. Better to rip off the bandaid now and plan the next moves.

[jeansheridan]

6 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Am I to understand that Lord Borros Baratheon of Storm's End does not know how to read? Is that why he shouted for his maester to come read Rhaenyra's message? If so, how the hell does a lord of a castle and an entire region not know how to read?

Yes that was the case. Maybe he has dyslexia or poor eyesight or wasn't good with his tutors. He might be good at math or hunting or putting good people in place. I thought it was a nice touch actually.

[Jack Shaftoe]

6 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Am I to understand that Lord Borros Baratheon of Storm's End does not know how to read? Is that why he shouted for his maester to come read Rhaenyra's message? If so, how the hell does a lord of a castle and an entire region not know how to read?

The same way many medieval kings governed whole realms without being able to read. Clerics did most of the reading and especially writing on behalf of the secular rulers in the Early and High Middle Ages.

If adult dragons can be so much bigger and stronger than each other, you would think Daemon would have mentioned it when he counted the dragons on each side. This changes the balance of forces quite significantly and makes his and Rhaenyra's inability to gather any allies before Viserys' death look even dumber in retrospect.

[proserpina65]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Luke's death, if it's been believed to be caused by Aemond (but who even know he  was there with his dragon?), could of course influence on some lords' mind but probably the benefits Otto has promised them for alliance, will be the stronger motive.   

The Baratheons and their court know.  Can't imagine it would remain secret.

5 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

First Aemond took Vhagar, the dragon Rhaena was to claim,

Vhagar's was anyone's to claim.  She didn't belong to Rhaena's family.  Once her rider was dead, she was a total free agent.

1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

Yeah, that was my take, the Baratheons were always boorish, good in a fight or a hunt, but not so much with the diplomacy. Especially the bit of business calling the master, I guess he can't even read.

What wasn't clear is, what happens to Otto? He was left waiting for Rhanearhys decision, is he stuck being a POW like poor Edmure Tully? I'm really hoping he spends the war in a dungeon. ( Especially after poor Luke's death) 

I assumed he went back to King's Landing.

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Take a Targaryen woman’s child from her, and there will be hell to pay.

Even if Aemond didn’t mean to kill him, well, what did you THINK was going to happen, dumbass?! Playing with dragons will like playing with the atomic bomb, no matter how well trained you think they are.

Yep, if nothing else, we learned how tenuous the rider's control of his/her dragon really is.

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Amazing that Stannis ended up a Grammar Nazi...

Maybe he was overcompensating for his ancestor's weakness.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The world of the show has always held that there are none more accursed than a kinslayer,

I guess? Tyrion seemed to ride his kin AND queenslaying into a cushy civil servant role. Well technically he didn't kill Dany but he really really encouraged it. I get the feeling the Martells kill each other on the regular too but that's Dorne.

[Oscirus]

Even though the actor doesn't look it, Aemond's a kid, likely a scared kid, hes going to come down from the sky talking mad shit. Maybe he might've gotten away with it if he keeps his mouth shut or denied it (doubt it, but it's possible) but I dont see him doing it.

[Lady S.]

9 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I also don't think the Baratheons have any intention of taking the fall for Luke's death. This probably won't make them change allegiances, but it's not a good look for a young prince under a peace banner to die at their hands. I think they already will not have hesitated to throw Aemond straight under the bus. 

Right, Borros had enough sense not to let Aemond shed blood under his roof for that very reason. (Which is funny since his more honorable father had little problem with the Blackwood lordling fighting during Rhaenyra's visit.) Accepting Aemond as a prospective son-in-law does not mean he's staunchly pro-Green, it means he's in it for himself and wants whatever arrangement is best for him. He was also far from the only witness to what preceded Luke's death inside his hall and some of those people probably do know how to read and write and may even have some sympathy for Rhaenyra.

10 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Otto specifically is not to be trusted. He's good at looking respectable on the surface. Seduce a grieving king but make it official. Aegon crowned in the proper way with all the symbols of power.  

Otto was plotting with two of his co-councillors to usurp the throne long before Viserys's garbled final words, and this plotting would have included Rhaenyra's death. All while serving Viserys, his old friend and his king. Notice how he didn't even try to claim Viserys named Aegon heir in his little parley. He knew nobody there would believe it, but really did not care about the truth of those words himself. He told them the succession changed the moment of Aegon's birth, that Viserys was a fool not to see it, and that the oaths sworn to Rhaenyra meant nothing. All of which had some truth but does not encourage a person to think their word would be honored and all promises from Otto were in good faith. Hence also his wanting Daemon's sons at court in positions of "high honor". Does anyone actually buy that offer was made out of family generosity and not to keep the sons of the more dangerous parent as hostages? 

Did anyone else think Luke's dragon looked like a smaller version of Laenor's? It's hard enough to clearly make out the dragon's colors with their bad lighting, but if so, I think it's a nice touch. The "father" and son have no resemblance but their dragons do.

[jeansheridan]

I am actually way more interested in seeing all the other Houses and finding out how they calculate which side to support. Baratheon's scornful comment about "You Targaryens " was telling. They are still invaders and foreigners, 100+ years in. 

So as far as we know, only three dragons with riders have battle experience. Daemon's, SeaSmoke, and Aemond's.  Also as far as we know, there have never been this many dragons in a war. The Conqeror only had three and it sounds like the three siblings took different parts of Westeros. So maybe too many dragons is a bad thing. Too volatile.  Maybe those wild dragons just come out to play like wild cards. 

I have no idea. But I hope the world widens to include a lot more leads. I want my new Daavos, Brienne, Bronn...

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Any support I could have for the Greens is just various things about the Blacks that I don't like; there's nothing that actually makes the Greens seem good or supportable in and of themselves. They're all selfish, cowardly, scheming bullies

Glances to the left.

Sees sigil of House Bolton

[Cristofle]

I'm really hoping we get to see a lot more of Lord Cregan Stark, since he was mentioned by name in the episode. I need a Stark in this show right now, lol.