S01.E07: Driftmark

[Cristofle]

Honestly, I didn't feel as sorry for Rhaenys in the end as I might have if she hadn't seemingly so completely shunned Jace and Luce. She wouldn't even look at them as far as I could tell. I know the Westerosi lore about bastards, but it's a viewpoint I so thoroughly cannot sympathize with that I always hold it against the characters who go along with it (Catelyn, Alicent, now Rhaenys). She had to have at least suspected that Laenor was the primary issue in why Rhaenyra and Laenor had no natural children. She knows what he is. Laenor by all accounts loved the boys and accepted them as his own. That she is so obsessed with bloodlines that she can't even give a kind LOOK to them is part of the exact toxicity that Laenor so desperately wanted to escape. SHE was very much part of what he was fleeing from, even if it wasn't obvious to me until this episode. She is correct that Corlys is ambitious, but he seems to also be genuinely fond of the boys. He was visibly impacted by Luce not wanting his chair since "everyone would be dead" and HE immediately moved to protect him while Rhaenys only cared about the girls, who frankly were in no physical danger that I could see. By all means, check on them, they're scared and traumatized and Baela was struck by Aemond (Daemon also could have cared a little more about that, as I said above, heh), but I never saw any indication she was concerned about the boys at all even when Alicent was demanding one of their eyes. Rhaenys has a worldview Laenor deserved to escape from as much as anyone else around him. 

[Avabelle]

6 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Alicent wasn't horrible nor cruel - she is a mother, so if course she acts like a lioness for her son.

As if those kids are anything to Alicent bar props to try and one up Rhaenyra. The argument that any of Alicents actions are driven by a fierce maternal instinct is very weak. She’s driven by bitterness and anger and the very exhausting assumption that she’s the wronged party in her feud with Rhaenyra.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Avabelle

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Alicent wasn't horrible nor cruel - she is a mother, so if course she acts like a lioness for her son.

And she was right about Rhaenyra whose "freedom" means presenting her bastards as legitimate children and heirs although they aren't.   

Her father was right, though.  

If I believed this was about Aemond, yes but it wasn’t. She was just mad that Rhaenyra got away with something again. I don’t get the impression Alicent loves her children. I feel she thinks she should be compensated for having them.

[Enigma X]

I can't stand Alicent, but I do think it is equally true she loves her kids and she loves power and feels as if they deserve to sit on the throne. She sees herself as a martyr.

And what @ursula said about being mad at Rhaenyra, I also feel is true of Alicent.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Enigma X

[Meredith Quill]

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Rhaenyra also has a father who loves her, wants to see her happy, and sees the hypocrisy of how women are treated so he (IMO) doesn't actually care that Rhaenyra might be having sex with a man that is not her husband........whereas Alicent had a father who only cared about her as much as he could use her, and I think the strain of being used and doing her duty is making her crack.

Otto used her as a broodmare to get his bloodline on the throne, that's all she represented to him, a walking womb for potentially royal babies to raise his family status. She knows it and resents it and it has made her bitterly resent her entire farce of a life it seems. Much as I may dislike her, I don't blame her for that aspect. 

[Lamima]

Hmm, I don't find Aemond to be the victim in the big cousin Bru ha ha. He was the villain even though it ended with 4 against (him) 1. He totes deserved that beating and the eye loss. He is bad to the bone. 

The uncle lovin is less gross when niece is not 14. Still!?!? Funny how Daemon did not age at all while Raenerya did.

I knew, when Deamon talked [to ser boyfriend whoever] about a place where your names don't matter, that the plan was a fake out death. So glad to be right. And happy they are off to live their best life. Sorry for mama Raeneys...she is my fave of the show. 

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

Otto used her as a broodmare to get his bloodline on the throne, that's all she represented to him, a walking womb for potentially royal babies to raise his family status. She knows it and resents it and it has made her bitterly resent her entire farce of a life it seems. Much as I may dislike her, I don't blame her for that aspect. 

I understand that about her too.....but as they say: At some point you have to stop blaming your parents and start taking responsibility for your own decisions.

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, Lamima said:

The uncle lovin is less gross when niece is not 14. Still!?!? Funny how Daemon did not age at all while Raenerya did.

Speaking of aging, what is the age difference between Daemon and Viserys?

[absnow54]

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

The uncle lovin is less gross when niece is not 14. Still!?!? Funny how Daemon did not age at all while Raenerya did.

Rhaenyra also grew like 8 inches, she was nearly the same height as him. They should have put Milly in heels. 

[Cristofle]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Alicent wasn't horrible nor cruel - she is a mother, so if course she acts like a lioness for her son.

An adult threatening - well, and actively trying - to cut out a child's eye is always horrifically cruel, no matter what happened to Aemond. Hence literally everyone around her was horrified, even those who might otherwise be sympathetic to her. The adults in the room are ultimately responsible for what happened with the children, Alicent as much as anyone else. She has clearly actively pushed her resentment and rage onto Aemond, which led to him feeling superior enough to taunt four other children, and he learned the hard way he wasn't THAT superior. She is not nearly the only adult responsible, most adults there had a role to play, but she is no more blameless than anyone else and she's more responsible than some. Responding the way she did was utterly depraved.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Cristofle said:

An adult threatening - well, and actively trying - to cut out a child's eye is always horrifically cruel, no matter what happened to Aemond. Hence literally everyone around her was horrified, even those who might otherwise be sympathetic to her. The adults in the room are ultimately responsible for what happened with the children, Alicent as much as anyone else. She has clearly actively pushed her resentment and rage onto Aemond, which led to him feeling superior enough to taunt four other children, and he learned the hard way he wasn't THAT superior. She is not nearly the only adult responsible, most adults there had a role to play, but she is no more blameless than anyone else and she's more responsible than some. Responding the way she did was utterly depraved.

Yes. It thoroughly smacked of someone who has completely lost all perspective; their judgment extremely skewed through a veil of anger, bitterness, resentment all bubbling to the surface in a perfect storm of hatred at their perceived enemy.

[Avabelle]

4 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Otto used her as a broodmare to get his bloodline on the throne, that's all she represented to him, a walking womb for potentially royal babies to raise his family status. She knows it and resents it and it has made her bitterly resent her entire farce of a life it seems. Much as I may dislike her, I don't blame her for that aspect. 

I agree with this but that’s also my problem with Alicent in general. Her father put her in this position and instead of taking it out on him she’s hellbent on HATING Rhaenyra who actually had nothing to do with that part of her life. Her reasons for hating Rhaenyra are so weak because everything she hates about her life is down to her father. That’s why she’s impossible to root for - her entire storyline is just that she a petty jealous knob and however much her origin story might have justified hatred towards Otto and Viscarys, the misplaced anger and all out war on Rhaenyra because she’s jealous just makes her hateful to watch. 

[Lamima]

4 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Speaking of aging, what is the age difference between Daemon and Viserys?

That is good question too because Viserys looks 90 now and Daemon still looks 30ish.

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

Hmm, I don't find Aemond to be the victim in the big cousin Bru ha ha. He was the villain even though it ended with 4 against (him) 1. He totes deserved that beating and the eye loss. He is bad to the bone. 

The uncle lovin is less gross when niece is not 14. Still!?!? Funny how Daemon did not age at all while Raenerya did.

At the end of the day, the four cousins ran to find out who stole Laena's dragon and were shocked that it was Aemond. The girls were already emotional because they lost their mother, the boys because they lost their father  a close friend of the family...and here came in Aemond, high off of claiming the biggest baddest dragon still in the kingdom that gave him a huge confidence boost, and his true personality of being another twisted psycho starts talking smack and threatening to feed the girls to his dragon....so yeah, he got his butt handed to him, and it was deserved....

I know where not supposed to bring up the books, but as its not really a spoiler...I believe in the books, Daemon is described as a man that doesn't appear to age.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Anyone else laughing hysterically during the princes fight scene? Or when Alicent attacked Rhaenyra with a knife and everybody was watching curiously once again? Or when Alicent thought she was the boss of Criston, not the king and ordering him to maim a prince would pass muster? I mean, it's nice that all the protagonists are flawed but often it's incredibly implausible how they get away with stuff and how everything hinges on Viserys being stupid in the most convenient of fashions.

Oh, yeah, let's interrogate Aemond in public because rumours about murderous princes are totally the thing the kingdom needs. Let's not punish Alicent in any way, not even a slap on the wrist after she tried to murder the heir to the throne. Rhaenyra is also dumb enough to fuck her uncle on a beach where any passer-by can see them. And once again, funerals seem the best place for hook-ups in Westeros, while weddings bring tragedy.

I don't understand why Laenor needs to fake his death in order to go on live in the East. He could have gone anyway and nobody could have ordered him back. Does he really like Rhaenyra enough to do this to his mother (his father doesn't seem too fond of him)? He has spent all his life in a status obsessed society but now he is suddenly okay with being nobody? Convenient, isn't it?

Daemon now looks the same he did in episode one, while everyone looks radically different. Someone needs to check for hidden portraits in his attic.

Otto conveniently becoming a Hand off-screen was pretty weird.

Corlys is okay with his son being cuckolded because history remembers names? Buddy, the heir to the throne is going to be called Targaryen, you know and if everyone in the kingdom suspects the children are not Laenor's, history is going to remember that. Again, super convenient for plot purposes that Corlys cares more about history than actual blood lineages.

The moral of the story - King Bobby B wasn't such a bad ruler, after all. Compared to Viserys, I mean. I do suspect that Alicent, Rhaenyra and Daemon aren't supposed to be such utter fools as they are in my eyes but what can you do.

The dragon flight was pretty cool but these poor dragons really deserve riders who aren't inbred idiots.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Scarlett45]

40 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

What is sad, to me, is that I don't even think that Alicent gave two craps about Aemond actually getting hurt so much as she saw (in her mind) another time that Rhaenyra was getting away with something that Alicent felt she shouldn't. I mean when Alicent tried to attack Luc and Rhaenyra stopped her and they were whispering back and forth....none of it was about the kids, but about Alicent that it was unfair that Rhaenyra didn't seem bound by the same rules she was and Rhaenyra pointing out Alicent's hypocrisy.

I do think that Alicent cared that her son lost an eye, that’s a SERIOUS thing- but the fact that it was in a fight with Rhaenrya’s sons makes me agree with the rest of your post. 

[Cristofle]

3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I don't understand why Laenor needs to fake his death in order to go on live in the East. He could have gone anyway and nobody could have ordered him back. Does he really like Rhaenyra enough to do this to his mother (his father doesn't seem too fond of him)?

Honestly? Yes. Rhaenyra is perhaps the one person EVER in his life to look straight at him and say she accepts him and respects him as he is. His mother won't even look at the children he openly loves, and she's trying to disinherit Luce in the name of Laena's children. Laenor has been shown consistently to be uncomfortable, unhappy, and distressed with the role he is expected to play, and he avoids it at every turn. I think he would have jumped at the chance to flee from it. I don't think he went off poor, Daemon probably provided more gold than what he initially handed to Qarl. But would he go somewhere where none of this matters, where he can change his name and never be the person with this burden again? 100%. Rhaenys knows what he is - that doesn't mean she accepts it. Hence her treatment of the boys. Laenor wanted to be set free. Rhaenyra helped him completely free himself from the world he didn't fit into, which included his mother.

[Carolina Girl]

11 hours ago, peridot said:

Aemond was scheming to get a dragon and punching his cousins. 

Any sympathy I felt for this little shit in the last episode evaporated.  He isn't even worthy of a pig with wings.

[LadyChaos]

15 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Speaking of aging, what is the age difference between Daemon and Viserys?

Its hard to guess, they changed some ages of characters in the show....but I think at the start of HOTD 101, he is supposed to be 20....there is like a 15 year age difference between him and his brother.

8 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Anyone else laughing hysterically during the princes fight scene? Or when Alicent attacked Rhaenyra with a knife and everybody was watching curiously once again? Or when Alicent thought she was the boss of Criston, not the king and ordering him to maim a prince would pass muster? I mean, it's nice that all the protagonists are flawed but often it's incredibly implausible how they get away with stuff and how everything hinges on Viserys being stupid in the most convenient of fashions.

----

I don't understand why Laenor needs to fake his death in order to go on live in the East. He could have gone anyway and nobody could have ordered him back. Does he really like Rhaenyra enough to do this to his mother (his father doesn't seem too fond of him)? He has spent all his life in a status obsessed society but now he is suddenly okay with being nobody? Convenient, isn't it?

The part that got me, was when the Commander of the King's guard looked at Crispy Creme after Alicent said 'You belong to me'....like you know he was thinking 'You move an inch and or dead.'

The point of faking his death was to free Rhaenyra to marry again.

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I do think that Alicent cared that her son lost an eye, that’s a SERIOUS thing- but the fact that it was in a fight with Rhaenrya’s sons makes me agree with the rest of your post. 

yeah...let me add then, that I think she just cared more about Rhaenyra's sons having done it.

[Sakura12]

Only Jace gets to take the Targaryan name. Luce and Joffrey will be Velaryon's. So his name will live on, if not his bloodline. He's right in a few hundred years, people will only read or hear about them by their last name. Whether they are bastards or not will not matter. His granddaughters will marry, take their husband's name and his name will die out. 

Laenor is not a cuckold. He and Rheanyra have an arrangement. He know the kids are not his but he raises and accepts the kids as his. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

We actually seen Aemond being trained, weve seen no such thing with rhaena. Since we know that Daemon was ignoring her, Id say its a pretty safe bet she wasnt trained. Hoping that vhagar would recognize her and take it easy is wishful thinking

We haven't actually seen Aemond being trained. We have seen Aemond attend a training that Jace was doing of Jace's dragon, which may be a distinction without a difference, but I think is a relevant one.

The implication that Aemond probably attended other trainings and may have in the past attempted these things before himself is a fair one.  But it's also fair to assume that he himself had never attempted to command dragons and just watched as Aegon and others did. I would personally not consider watching others train necessarily to be "training," although since he was able to master Vhaegar and knows the High Valeryian words he used, he certainly picked up enough by osmosis if he wasn't trained.

It doesn't follow from that that Rhaena wasn't trained. Indeed, if we are going to consider being present while others were trained training, it seems more reasonable to assume that she has been present for at least some of her sister's training and thus was also trained herself.

I don't know that we know that "Daemon was ignoring her" in general. He at moments was nonchalant to his kids in this episode given that their mother just died and that they just were in this pre-civil war. But that doesn't mean that he was that way always or in all things. But generally it seems to me that as much of a self-centered asshole as Daemon can be, he cares for his blood relatives. And of course, he cares for himself. I would think that he would want everyone in his family to be able to control a dragon if he could help it. There is no particular reason he would not have had Rhaena trained that I can think of.

Also, even assuming Daemon was the shittiest of parents, for Rhaena to go untrained, other adult family members would have to also be shitty as well. Laena, Rhaenys, and Laenor all have dragons (among other possible immediate relatives). I don't think it reasonable that all of them would have neglected what was considered her birthright as a Targaryen and a Velaryion. It does not make sense to me that Baela (?) would have gotten training but Rhaena would not on any possible grounds but age, and Rhaena does not seem significantly younger than any of the children who have been trained.

I don't think it's any more "wishful thinking" that Vhaegar would recognize Rhaena than any alternative. We don't really know a ton about dragon psychology in general, or anything about Vhaegar's specific way of thinking. We can extrapolate some from previous dragons we have seen or how pets react in general, perhaps. 

The logic I base the idea that Vhaegar would recognize Rhaena includes the following assumptions:

1. Vhaegar has almost certainly been in Rhaena's presence a number of times before over the years.

2. Vhaegar is reasonably intelligent for an animal (i.e. not as smart as a human, but smarter than dogs and most real-life domestic animals)

3. Rhaena looks like Leana (and may even have similarities in smell, carriage or other things)

4. Vhaegar is saddened by having had to kill Laena.

5. Because of 1-3 (among other possible factors), Vhaegar would probably make a connection between Laena and Rhaena

6. Vhaegar could interpret bonding to Rhaena as what Laena would want. 

Because of assumptions 1-4, I tend to think that at worst, Vhaegar would have just ignored Rhaena, rather than attack her. 

As with any assumption, any of the above could be mistaken. We'll almost certainly never know for sure. But they make sense to me. YMMV.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Alicent wasn't horrible nor cruel - she is a mother, so if course she acts like a lioness for her son.

If she were acting like a lioness to protect her son, more power to her. Wanting to hurt a child for revenge for her child being hurt is not that. 

[Scarlett45]

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I don't understand why Laenor needs to fake his death in order to go on live in the East. He could have gone anyway and nobody could have ordered him back. Does he really like Rhaenyra enough to do this to his mother (his father doesn't seem too fond of him)? He has spent all his life in a status obsessed society but now he is suddenly okay with being nobody? Convenient, isn't it?

Faking his death allows Rhaenyra to marry again and be free. If he just abandoned her she would suffer for it (socially and politically) and his parents would be pissed.

Yes his parents are sad now, but he hasn’t “dishonored” them by being dead. And Luce (as his legal son) would still inherit Driftmark.
 

Laenor has spent a lifetime hating being gay, hating not being able to fulfill his duties to his family. He is a nice enough guy, not malicious or mean- he would be happy as a sell sword somewhere fighting, so long as he is financially comfortable (which he will be now). 

[Sakura12]

Leanor had to "die" for them both to be free. Rhaenyra is free to marry Daemon and he's free to be with his boyfriend where they don't care about it as long as he has money. Just leaving doesn't stop them from married. We saw that with Daemon and his first wife. He had to kill her to be free to marry someone else. Rheanyra likes Laenor and didn't want him dead. She just didn't want to be married to him anymore, what they came up with helps them both. 

[LadyChaos]

9 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The logic I base the idea that Vhaegar would recognize Rhaena includes the following assumptions:

1. Vhaegar has almost certainly been in Rhaena's presence a number of times before over the years.

2. Vhaegar is reasonably intelligent for an animal (i.e. not as smart as a human, but smarter than dogs and most real-life domestic animals)

3. Rhaena looks like Leana (and may even have similarities in smell, carriage or other things)

4. Vhaegar is saddened by having had to kill Laena.

5. Because of 1-3 (among other possible factors), Vhaegar would probably make a connection between Laena and Rhaena

6. Vhaegar could interpret bonding to Rhaena as what Laena would want. 

Because of assumptions 1-4, I tend to think that at worst, Vhaegar would have just ignored Rhaena, rather than attack her. 

As with any assumption, any of the above could be mistaken. We'll almost certainly never know for sure. But they make sense to me. YMMV.

I think Vhaegar was ultimately lonely and would've bonded with the first person to attempt to. Rhaena, was probably planning on trying after she mourned her mother. Aemond who is a budding psychopath saw no reason in waiting and wanted the biggest baddest dragon....though I imagine many adults there probably thought it was in pour taste to attempt to bond with a dragon who'd just lost its rider.

[Avabelle]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Leanor had to "die" for them both to be free

Ugh I’m already dreading his inevitable return, Alicents reaction and how she’ll use it to fuck over Rhaenyra and the kids.

[Constantinople]

32 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I don't understand why Laenor needs to fake his death in order to go on live in the East. He could have gone anyway and nobody could have ordered him back. Does he really like Rhaenyra enough to do this to his mother (his father doesn't seem too fond of him)? He has spent all his life in a status obsessed society but now he is suddenly okay with being nobody? Convenient, isn't it?

It is convenient. I find it hard to credit that a medieval noble that is the heir to one great families in the land would just take off and live under an assumed identity.

Quote

Otto conveniently becoming a Hand off-screen was pretty weird.

I think there should have at least been a scene showing why Viserys brought him back, particularly since Viserys practically accused Otto of murdering Viserys's father when Viserys dismissed Otto.

Quote

Corlys is okay with his son being cuckolded because history remembers names? Buddy, the heir to the throne is going to be called Targaryen, you know and if everyone in the kingdom suspects the children are not Laenor's, history is going to remember that. Again, super convenient for plot purposes that Corlys cares more about history than actual blood lineages.

Shades of Tywin.

[absnow54]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

His granddaughters will marry, take their husband's name and his name will die out. 

His granddaughters are already Targaryen by name, because they are Daemon's daughters.

2 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Ugh I’m already dreading his inevitable return, Alicents reaction and how she’ll use it to fuck over Rhaenyra and the kids.

Rhaenyra mentioned that Aegon the Conqueror had two wives, and in episode 2, Daemon declared he was going to take multiple wives, but Viserys wouldn't have it, so I wonder what the legalities of it are. It seemed like Rhaneyra's reasoning was that Leanor could live, and they could still legally marry, but they knew multiple husbands were frowned upon, so they're keeping the two husbands thing a secret. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Faking his death allows Rhaenyra to marry again and be free. If he just abandoned her she would suffer for it (socially and politically) and his parents would be pissed.

Yeah but why should he do this enormous favour for her? Presumably he is going to abandon not just his status but his dragon too because it would be a bit hard to be incognito and have a huge dragon follow you around.

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Laenor has spent a lifetime hating being gay, hating not being able to fulfill his duties to his family. He is a nice enough guy, not malicious or mean- he would be happy as a sell sword somewhere fighting, so long as he is financially comfortable (which he will be now). 

He would have been financially comfortable if he had simply ran East rather than faked his death - he has a dragon and Daemon's storyline made it clear that you could name you are a dragonrider. Seems to me that he pulled a Dany and kind of forgot about his dragon (assuming it hasn't died off-screen, of course).

[LadyChaos]

6 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Yeah but why should he do this enormous favour for her? Presumably he is going to abandon not just his status but his dragon too because it would be a bit hard to be incognito and have a huge dragon follow you around.

He would have been financially comfortable if he had simply ran East rather than faked his death - he has a dragon and Daemon's storyline made it clear that you could name you are a dragonrider. Seems to me that he pulled a Dany and kind of forgot about his dragon (assuming it hasn't died off-screen, of course).

He wasn't doing her a favor, he wanted to be free to be with who he wanted and to live his own life. This was something that worked for both of them....and its not unheard of for a dragon to fly off after their rider died....so most people would assume Seasmoke just left if he took Seasmoke with him.

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

He would have been financially comfortable if he had simply ran East rather than faked his death - he has a dragon and Daemon's storyline made it clear that you could name you are a dragonrider. Seems to me that he pulled a Dany and kind of forgot about his dragon (assuming it hasn't died off-screen, of course).

I don't think he would have considered this a real option (to just go East) - he would have had no life to return to anyway if he'd openly abandoned his wife and the children he claimed so he could run off with another man. Also, doing that would have made the boys even more vulnerable, because he'd essentially openly be saying they weren't his. Frankly, there's no indication he's attached enough to Rhaenys to do all of that just so she'd know he was alive.

Sea Smoke IS currently a plothole I hope they address. Dragons and humans have a kind of otherworldly connection - I imagine it is hard to simply leave one behind, but to be fair, I don't know if anyone has tried. 

[jeansheridan]

14 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

He wasn't doing her a favor, he wanted to be free to be with who he wanted and to live his own life

He is essentially doing what Ser Cole hoped Rhynaera would do. I don't find this odd at all. He may feel pangs some day or he may be delighted he dodged whatever chaos comes. I think he loved his sons well enough but ultimately their place is with their mother. They would be safer physically with him of course but that doesn't seem to be a consideration. And he felt shame not being available for the family argument. 

And that's a distinction I haven't seen noted. That late night fight was within the family. The only outsiders were servants and maesters, presumably loyal to their houses. Otto is a grandfather too in that mix. So they were not fighting in public just amongst themselves.

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 minute ago, LadyChaos said:

He wasn't doing her a favor, he wanted to be free to be with who he wanted and to live his own life.

He didn't need to fake his death to achieve that. He could have simply gotten on a ship and left Westeros.

Just now, Cristofle said:

Also, doing that would have made the boys even more vulnerable, because he'd essentially openly be saying they weren't his.

Everyone already thinks the boys aren't his to the extent that this was said to the king's face and no one was even surprised.

[Lady Whistleup]

In general, I have very little sympathy for ppl who treat "bastards" with cruelty or contempt. I didn't like it with Catelyn and I don't like it with Alicent and her brood or Criston. Viserys to his credit loves his grandchildren and doesn't care that they are "bastards."

[Cristofle]

Just now, Lady Whistleup said:

In general, I have very little sympathy for ppl who treat "bastards" with cruelty or contempt. I didn't like it with Catelyn and I don't like it with Alicent and her brood or Criston. Viserys to his credit loves his grandchildren and doesn't care that they are "bastards."

This x100. This is one Westerosi custom I absolutely refuse to go along with, lol. Children are not responsible for the failings of their parents. 

I wonder if there's a little echo of Catelyn (well, foreshadowing in a way) with Rhaenys. Ned correctly never trusted Catelyn enough to tell her the truth about Jon (arguably the smartest thing Ned ever did, lol). Catelyn was too rigid in her beliefs, too focused on blood. Apparently Rhaenys is too, so Laenor would not have trusted her enough to loop her in on this secret.

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

He didn't need to fake his death to achieve that. He could have simply gotten on a ship and left Westeros.

He needed to, to be free....if he just up and left...as heir to the Driftmark and future king consort, he can't just walk away and expect people won't look for him. He needed to cut ties with his old life to build a new one and make sure no one came looking....and the only way to do that is to fake his death. And it benefited both of them to do so.

[Penman61]

8 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

In general, I have very little sympathy for ppl who treat "bastards" with cruelty or contempt. I didn't like it with Catelyn and I don't like it with Alicent and her brood or Criston. Viserys to his credit loves his grandchildren and doesn't care that they are "bastards."

I personally agree, of course, but in a realm and social group that depends on bloodline inheritance reliability for ultimate power (and power by association), I'm not surprised that that group is fixed on policing bloodlines, both formally and informally. It's shitty, but a bit more understandable in this socially regressive world.

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Everyone already thinks the boys aren't his to the extent that this was said to the king's face and no one was even surprised.

It's still different for Laenor to openly abandon them. Viserys just ordered that anyone who repeat this claim should have their tongues cut out. Laenor has said he loves these children - why would he openly make their lives worse by making it clear he'd up and abandoned them, instead of making it look like he'd died some tragic and random death? Also, this completely frees him. He can truly be whoever or whatever he wants to be. There's simply no indication he's attached enough to his title to want to keep it at all costs, even as he leaves his entire world behind.

[Oscirus]

I love that Aemond getting jumped 4 on 1 and attacked first makes him the bully. I get the feeling that the only reason hes getting that label is because of the team he's on and not the situation cuz he didnt search them out, they came for him, started some shit then played the victim when he responded in kind.

[Cristofle]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I love that Aemond getting jumped 4 on 1 and attacked first makes him the bully. I get the feeling that the only reason hes getting that label is because of the team he's on and not the situation cuz he didnt search them out, they came for him, started some shit then played the victim when he responded in kind.

They didn't knowingly search him out either - they wanted to find out who'd taken Vhagar. Aemond could have responded more calmly to Rhaena, a grieving child who obviously would be deeply upset that this stranger took her mother's dragon, instead of responding by insulting her and saying she should ride a pig (Rhaena obviously had zero role in the original prank, so it's not like he needed to bring her into it). Aemond was arrogant in that confrontation from start to finish (finish being when he lost the eye). He wasn't acting like someone who was aware of the danger in fighting four on one - he was tossing out insults left and right and threatening to feed them to his dragon. He also had no awareness that just because he doesn't love his siblings and cousins doesn't mean no one does - I think he genuinely did not expect Jace to step in and defend Baela. He made a dangerous error in judgment in not RECOGNIZING he was one against four, four children who would absolutely be loyal to each other and fight against him as one, and that he did not have the upper hand in that moment tjust because he'd ridden Vhagar, and he paid for it. 

[aghst]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don’t feel bad. He fucked around and found out.

Yeah but now he's going to be eyepatch bro.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Cristofle said:

They didn't knowingly search him out either - they wanted to find out who'd taken Vhagar. Aemond could have responded more calmly to Rhaena, a grieving child who obviously would be deeply upset that this stranger took her mother's dragon, instead of responding by insulting her and saying she should ride a pig (Rhaena obviously had zero role in the original prank, so it's not like he needed to bring her into it). Aemond was arrogant in that confrontation from start to finish (finish being when he lost the eye). He wasn't acting like someone who was aware of the danger in fighting four on one - he was tossing out insults left and right and threatening to feed them to his dragon. He also had no awareness that just because he doesn't love his siblings and cousins doesn't mean no one does - I think he genuinely did not expect Jace to step in and defend Baela. He made a dangerous error in judgment in not RECOGNIZING he was one against four, four children who would absolutely be loyal to each other and fight against him as one, and that he did not have the upper hand in that moment tjust because he'd ridden Vhagar, and he paid for it. 

Not to mention that this 4 v 1 was 4 smaller (and arguably physically weaker) kids than him, which is why he easily was getting the better of each of them despite being on the ground at one point. And I'm sorry but any larger boy who hits girls smaller than he is - that's a nope from me.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Not to mention that this 4 v 1 was 4 smaller (and arguably physically weaker) kids than him, which is why he easily was getting the better of each of them despite being on the ground at one point. And I'm sorry but any larger boy who hits girls smaller than he is - that's a nope from me.

And its not like his words harmless......he was threatening to feed the girls to Vhagar so....

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Daemon now looks the same he did in episode one, while everyone looks radically different. Someone needs to check for hidden portraits in his attic.

Thanks for the laugh.   I've been wondering the same for quite some time. 🤣

[aghst]

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I am ok if other people don't agree with me, but I have no sympathy for Aemond because he came off as a bully. I am glad he lost an eye.

I am disappointed at how Daemon seemed more interested in Rhaenyra than his children. 

I think the writers and viewers are looking at this story through a modern lens.

Not just modern but right now.

As we saw in Mad Men, parents weren't necessarily in love with their children in the recent past like they're suppose to be now.

Also a lot of these medieval marriages had little romantic love, the way they're portraying Raynera and Damon.  There was certainly courtly romance as depicted in poetry but they were marrying cousins and making political moves.

They're trying to sensualize and romanticize the uncle and niece coupling a little too much.

[DigitalCount]

I'm also Team Cousin Coalition when it comes to Aemond vs. Jace/Luke/Baela/Rhaena. His brother led the pig bullying earlier, and like a bully himself he knew he couldn't strike back at Aegon because he'd get flattened. But he perceived Rhaena as a weaker opponent and felt comfortable telling her she was fit for a pig when she had nothing to do with the original insult. She reacted as one might expect someone grieving their mother and losing her tie to her to react after being doubly insulted by Aemond, the person responsible for the loss. Since Jace and Luke are good boys with good hearts who actually connected with their cousins, they weren't going to sit by and let their (lady!) cousins get thrown to the ground, that's knave behavior.

I don't think it's beyond the pale to think that Westeros punishes women for acting in ways that men are allowed to act without shame, we've seen countless examples of this. Imagine Rhaena thinking as Aemond did and claiming Vhagar when her mother's casket had barely settled on the ocean floor. People would have likely considered it monstrous for her to even be thinking of getting a dragon under those circumstances.

Helaena is kind of creepy, is she a "dreamer" like Viserys talked about wanting to be? She was repeating a mantra that seemed like it predicted the mounting tensions in the show, and last week she said something like "he has to close one eye" regarding Aemond. I assume she'll have a bigger part to play going forward.

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

They didn't knowingly search him out either - they wanted to find out who'd taken Vhagar. Aemond could have responded more calmly to Rhaena, a grieving child who obviously would be deeply upset that this stranger took her mother's dragon, instead of responding by insulting her and saying she should ride a pig (Rhaena obviously had zero role in the original prank, so it's not like he needed to bring her into it). Aemond was arrogant in that confrontation from start to finish (finish being when he lost the eye). He wasn't acting like someone who was aware of the danger in fighting four on one - he was tossing out insults left and right and threatening to feed them to his dragon. He also had no awareness that just because he doesn't love his siblings and cousins doesn't mean no one does - I think he genuinely did not expect Jace to step in and defend Baela. He made a dangerous error in judgment in not RECOGNIZING he was one against four, four children who would absolutely be loyal to each other and fight against him as one, and that he did not have the upper hand in that moment tjust because he'd ridden Vhagar, and he paid for it. 

They came at him, went for a kill shot when they realized that he wasnt gonna just stand there and be attacked. Grief can only be used as an excuse for so many things. If the argument is that he deserved what he got, fine, fair enough. But if he responds to them in kind since he has the worlds biggest dragon now, the same energy should be kept.

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Helaena is kind of creepy, is she a "dreamer" like Viserys talked about wanting to be? She was repeating a mantra that seemed like it predicted the mounting tensions in the show, and last week she said something like "he has to close one eye" regarding Aemond. I assume she'll have a bigger part to play going forward.

I do believe she is dreamer, yes.......she told Aemond he would have to close an eye to gain a dragon....and told Otto he was the reason for the war.

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

They came at him, went for a kill shot when they realized that he wasnt gonna just stand there and be attacked.

They went for a kill shot after he made it clear he was going to kill them. "Come at me again and I'll feed you to my dragon." "You will die screaming in flames like your father did." He took it from a fist fight to a deadly fight first. Aemond fucked around and found out. His ego, so high after riding Vhagar, would not allow him to see he did not have the upper hand and couldn't afford to act like he did. And actually, I think he knows that now, hence the "fair exchange". 

[AntFTW]

27 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I love that Aemond getting jumped 4 on 1 and attacked first makes him the bully. I get the feeling that the only reason hes getting that label is because of the team he's on and not the situation cuz he didnt search them out, they came for him, started some shit then played the victim when he responded in kind.

He's the bully because he threw the first insult that instigated the whole thing.

He bullied his cousins in same manner that he was bullied, and they attacked him for it.