S01.E06: Udûn

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

 

Adar and his army march on Ostirith.

Reminder: 

This is for discussion of the TV show only, no book talk allowed - including saying "but it's different in the books". Any spoiler from outside the books and stories (including previews or the movies) should be in spoiler tags.

[thuganomics85]

I'm guessing this episode played a sizable role for the massive budget Amazon bequeathed this series!  Certainly went all out with the explosions, expansive battle sequences, and more!  Hey, it worked for me at least.  I was entertained enough.

Isildur managed quite an impressive feat: he actually made me kind of like Galadriel again!  It was just nice seeing her being supportive and kind with him on the boat, instead of her doing the normal "all-knowing" smugness that she's been known for these past few episodes.

You just know keeping Adar alive will lead to major repercussions!

Of course Bronwyn would get wounded and almost die: once she and Arondir finally kissed, all bets were off!

While I doubt they would have been able to stop the guy in time no matter what, no one other than Theo even thinking about checking to see if that was actually the dagger/sword was a massive fail for everyone involved.

In the end, this was all kind of just a big origin story for Mount Doom, heh!

[Camera One]

This episode kept up the tension pretty well.  Though it was also kind of depressing with all the gore and redshirt deaths and an ultimate "win" for the villains.  

After trapping the orcs and toppling the tower, did they seriously just go back to their old village (situated above orc tunnels) to shelter in place?  Arondir knew how many orcs they had.  His own fellow watch guard members couldn't handle them.  What made him think these lowly villagers could?  The "We survived them once before!" speech was a stretch.  Was it not an option to head north or west?

Well, thank goodness the Middle Earth Express delivered Galadriel's army in 3 days or less.  Surely they could have plotted the last few episodes in a way that didn't feel so unlikely and convenient.  

I agree that finally, Galadriel was not totally unlikeable in this one.  I think she was still held back by her wooden dialogue.  I was thinking maybe it could also be the delivery to a lesser extent, but she's generally more natural with Halbrand than with the other characters.  I wanted to like her scenes with Isildur and Elendil, but didn't really.  Getting back to the horrid dialogue, even Meryl Streep would have difficulties delivering "One cannot satisfy thirst by drinking seawater".

So much for the theory that Halbrand is Theo's father.

Finally, the utter ridiculousness of Galadriel not even bothering to look at the secret weapon that Adar so desired.  Did Arondir not fill Galadriel in about the hilt being a key of some sort?  It made no sense that Arondir would give the wrapped hilt to Theo to give to the Numenarians to throw it in the sea.  Shouldn't it be sent to Gil-galad?   Did they cut a scene of Theo telling everyone the hilt was gone and replaced with an axe?  Since they just jumped to the volcanic eruption.  How did that barkeep end up with the real thing?   

Discussion of this show is pretty slow compared to some other similar shows.  I wonder why.  I thought this episode was still average, but definitely one of the better ones so far.  With most shows, I tend to enjoy the conversations more than the action, but in this show, it can be okay until someone talks.  They really need to hire better dialogue writers.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Camera One

[Brn2bwild]

For those speculating that Halbrand is Sauron, this episode provided a potential clue.  Adar claims at one point to have killed Sauron.  In another scene, Halbrand is furious with him, on the verge of killing him, for reasons Adar does not understand because he does not recognize him.  What if Adar destroyed Sauron's old body and Sauron's spirit found a new one in Halbrand?  

[Mr. R0b0t]

Def felt like they are strongly hinting that Halbrand is not who he claims.  Almost too strongly.  The real mystery for me is how the barkeep slipped away and up that mountain so quickly and to a lesser degree why Theo never said "hey, this is not the thing!"

[PeterPirate]

All of the scenes in the Southlands, prior to the arrival of the Numenoreans, were excellent.  Bronwyn is a badass for enduring all that pain.  

The three Numenorean ships carried all those horses.  And traveled up-river against the current without oars.  And then the invasion force crossed over the mountains into the Southlands.  Mm-kay.  

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

For those speculating that Halbrand is Sauron, this episode provided a potential clue.  Adar claims at one point to have killed Sauron.  In another scene, Halbrand is furious with him, on the verge of killing him, for reasons Adar does not understand because he does not recognize him.  What if Adar destroyed Sauron's old body and Sauron's spirit found a new one in Halbrand?  

I really like this theory, especially how it explains the bolded part.

Edited September 30, 2022 by PeterPirate
Eliminate redundancy.

[Camera One]

They should have kept Theo's friend alive for the reveal that the were fighting the defectors from their own town.  I didn't recognize that guy they removed the helmet from.  Or some of the defectors could  have re-joined their former townspeople after their experience with Adar and the orcs.  This could have provided the barkeep with a chance to switch the evil sword hilt with an axe.

[mrspidey]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

The three Numenorean ships carried all those horses.  And traveled up-river against the current without oars.  And then the invasion force crossed over the mountains into the Southlands.  Mm-kay.  

Well, people complained that the Numenoreans where too much like regular humans...

[paulvdb]

13 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

In another scene, Halbrand is furious with him, on the verge of killing him, for reasons Adar does not understand because he does not recognize him.  What if Adar destroyed Sauron's old body and Sauron's spirit found a new one in Halbrand?

I guess that's one possibility. I had just assumed that Adar was like Bison from Street Fighter: "For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day in your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."

[susannot]

I don't care what anyone says.  I found the arrival of the Numenoreans thrilling.  And Galadriel an epic warrior hero.

[Jodithgrace]

I found this episode nice and twisty, even though I knew that the wrapped package was not the maguffin.  I also predicted that Bronyn would suddenly come back to life despite loss of blood because of those seeds. But the “orcs” turning out to be human, was a surprise, and a pretty bad one for the villagers, since they were exhausted, and the real orcs hadn’t even attacked yet.

I too, was wondering at the time line. The Numenorians had just sighted land, they still had to sail into the mountains, however they managed that, get off the ships, mount up and ride to the village in time to “save” it. The village was on a different time line all together, since we only saw two days or so before the Numenorians arrived.

I’m not a big fan of action sequences, but I give them points for having it be light enough, with the fires and all, to actually see what was happening. I’ve seen way too many fight scenes in the dark recently. 
 

People complain that Galadriel is too strident and unpleasant compared to the LOTR’s Galadriel. But after the events of this age, things calm down and there are centuries of peace, which gives Galadriel plenty of time to calm down and mature into the queenly being she is in LOTR. 

[peridot]

The way they trapped the Orcs in the tower was pretty cool.  I laughed a bit when I saw that the lady waiting with Bronwyn behind the cart just stood there while the Orc slit her throat.  She didn't even try to move back.

The fight at the village was pretty cool.  I had to hide my face when they threatened Arondir with eye-gouging.  I wasn't expecting for the first wave to be the former villagers, I just thought the Orcs had a second wave in hiding. 

Like others have mentioned, why didn't anyone bother checking the package? It was pretty odd to hand off the supposed dark artifact for a kid to dispose of. 

I have no ideas how volcanoes work, so I was expecting for the villagers to be drowned not set on fire!  That was a cool end shot.

[quarks]

I'm so glad to see that I wasn't the only one asking, wait, how many horses were they able to squeeze on those ships, and also, wait, how fast did Waldreg run to that insert sword, cause explosion place? I realize that Adar slipped Waldreg the sword before the Numenoreans showed up, and of course it presumably took some time to finish up all the fighting and capture Adar and question him, but still....time is certainly flexible on this show.

And also glad to see that I wasn't the only one saying, uh, CHECK THE WRAPPINGS TO SEE IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT CURSED OBJECT, FOLKS. It just does not bode well when Theo is your main voice of reason here.

On a related note, I still don't like Theo. 

[moonshine71]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:25 AM, Camera One said:

This episode kept up the tension pretty well.  Though it was also kind of depressing with all the gore and redshirt deaths and an ultimate "win" for the villains.  

After trapping the orcs and toppling the tower, did they seriously just go back to their old village (situated above orc tunnels) to shelter in place?  Arondir knew how many orcs they had.  His own fellow watch guard members couldn't handle them.  What made him think these lowly villagers could?  The "We survived them once before!" speech was a stretch.  Was it not an option to head north or west?

Well, thank goodness the Middle Earth Express delivered Galadriel's army in 3 days or less.  Surely they could have plotted the last few episodes in a way that didn't feel so unlikely and convenient.  

I agree that finally, Galadriel was not totally unlikeable in this one.  I think she was still held back by her wooden dialogue.  I was thinking maybe it could also be the delivery to a lesser extent, but she's generally more natural with Halbrand than with the other characters.  I wanted to like her scenes with Isildur and Elendil, but didn't really.  Getting back to the horrid dialogue, even Meryl Streep would have difficulties delivering "One cannot satisfy thirst by drinking seawater".

So much for the theory that Halbrand is Theo's father.

Finally, the utter ridiculousness of Galadriel not even bothering to look at the secret weapon that Adar so desired.  Did Arondir not fill Galadriel in about the hilt being a key of some sort?  It made no sense that Arondir would give the wrapped hilt to Theo to give to the Numenarians to throw it in the sea.  Shouldn't it be sent to Gil-galad?   Did they cut a scene of Theo telling everyone the hilt was gone and replaced with an axe?  Since they just jumped to the volcanic eruption.  How did that barkeep end up with the real thing?   

Discussion of this show is pretty slow compared to some other similar shows.  I wonder why.  I thought this episode was still average, but definitely one of the better ones so far.  With most shows, I tend to enjoy the conversations more than the action, but in this show, it can be okay until someone talks.  They really need to hire better dialogue writers.

Halbrand as Theo's father has been a theory?

I've been assuming he is secretly Arondir's son since he's been introduced, and haven't given it a second thought.

The whole don't look at the wrapped sword hilt/just give it to Theo... that's just too much stupid for me.

[moonshine71]

Ok, maybe I missed something, I do zone out a lot watching this show, but are we given any explanation how team Galadriel knows exactly where there is an army of orcs attacking some tiny little podunk town in the middle of nowhere, and is aware that it is happening right at the moment so they have to ride there at full charge straight through the night just to get there in the nick of time? 

I was under the impression she just had a feeling evil was afoot somewhere in Middle Earth, and something bad was happening in the Southlands(though I'm not sure how she even came to that conclusion), but I have no idea how they knew EXACTLY where they needed go and to get there with the utmost haste.

[Anduin]

36 minutes ago, moonshine71 said:

Ok, maybe I missed something, I do zone out a lot watching this show, but are we given any explanation how team Galadriel knows exactly where there is an army of orcs attacking some tiny little podunk town in the middle of nowhere, and is aware that it is happening right at the moment so they have to ride there at full charge straight through the night just to get there in the nick of time? 

I was under the impression she just had a feeling evil was afoot somewhere in Middle Earth, and something bad was happening in the Southlands(though I'm not sure how she even came to that conclusion), but I have no idea how they knew EXACTLY where they needed go and to get there with the utmost haste.

Galadriel find's Sauron's symbol in the Numenorean library. Turns out, it's a map of Mordor. When Halbrand tells her there's orcs in the Southlands, that's where she's headed. As for timing, yeah, it's very convenient. But Tolkien was guilty of that too.

[silverstream]

2 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Ok, maybe I missed something, I do zone out a lot watching this show, but are we given any explanation how team Galadriel knows exactly where there is an army of orcs attacking some tiny little podunk town in the middle of nowhere, and is aware that it is happening right at the moment so they have to ride there at full charge straight through the night just to get there in the nick of time? 

I was under the impression she just had a feeling evil was afoot somewhere in Middle Earth, and something bad was happening in the Southlands(though I'm not sure how she even came to that conclusion), but I have no idea how they knew EXACTLY where they needed go and to get there with the utmost haste.

I thought that that podunk town was some sort of capital city for the podunk area (hence also the close proximity to the watchtower), but now that I think about it some more somebody should have recognized Halbrand in that case....

I'm still not 100% convinced he's some long-lost king of the Southern people. That Bronwyn recognized his little keychain symbol makes it more likely, but he could also have taken that off somebody (a corpse in battle? He clearly has battle experience, so that much seems to be true).

[wanderingstar]

I liked almost everything* about this episode. The villagers trapping the first set of orcs and bringing the tower down on them was pretty cool. When you have inferior numbers, you have to get creative. 

Also loved the Numenorians riding into the Southlands (timeline issues notwhitstanding-😆). 

When Adar remarked that maybe Galadriel's search for the evil she's hunting should've ended in her own mirror, I cackled. Galadriel's reaction had big a-hit-dog-will-holler energy.

The vague wording of Halbrand's interaction with Adar means I still don't trust that dude, king or no.

*As others have mentioned, no one - not Galadriel, not the Numenorians, not the Southlanders - checking to make sure the magic hilt was the real deal took me right out of the story. Which is a shame, because otherwise, I really enjoyed this episode.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Ok, maybe I missed something, I do zone out a lot watching this show, but are we given any explanation how team Galadriel knows exactly where there is an army of orcs attacking some tiny little podunk town in the middle of nowhere, and is aware that it is happening right at the moment so they have to ride there at full charge straight through the night just to get there in the nick of time? 

Apparently, it was all just coincidence.  The only reason they were riding at full charge was because Galadriel was probably impatient to find out what was up in the South Lands.  All we heard Halbrand say was there were orcs in that general area near the watch tower, so Galadriel et al weren't aware of any specific battle happening.  

Arondir's plan to barricade themselves into a village with that flimsy "keep" might have made sense if he knew they were going to get help soon, but he didn't know that either.  He didn't even send a messenger to Linden.  Last episode we saw the orcs travelling through that valley to get up to the watchtower, while at the beginning of this episode, the villagers were in that same valley looking up at the watchtower collapse.  So they went back to a place that could potentially be crawling with orcs, both above and under ground.  Remember how they didn't even feel safe going back to get food a few episodes ago?  

This type of scenario was quite unlike

Spoiler

in the Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit, where fighters either expected (eventual) help or there were other characters who knew the dire circumstances and were rushing to get to a battle.

There was something seriously wrong with how they are plotting out the rough outline of the season, much less the minutiae of individual scenes and dialogue.  While watching, I was engaged by the action, but thinking back over it, the holes are quite egregious, and that affects rewatch value.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Camera One

[quarks]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Apparently, it was all just coincidence.  The only reason they were riding at full charge was because Galadriel was probably impatient to find out what was up in the South Lands.  All we heard Halbrand say was there were orcs in that general area near the watch tower, so Galadriel et al weren't aware of any specific battle happening.  

To be fair, the show did make a point of reminding us earlier in the episode that Elves can see much further than humans can - so I can sorta buy that as they approached, Galadriel could see a battle ahead and responded with FULL HORSE CHARGE. So I can handwave that a little as long as they didn't try to ride the horses at full speed all the way from the coast.

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Arondir's plan to barricade themselves into a village with that flimsy "keep" might have made sense if he knew they were going to get help soon, but he didn't know that either.  He didn't even send a messenger to Linden.  Last episode we saw the orcs travelling through that valley to get up to the watchtower, while at the beginning of this episode, the villagers were in that same valley looking up at the watchtower collapse.  So they went back to a place that could potentially be crawling with orcs, both above and under ground.  Remember how they didn't even feel safe going back to get food a few episodes ago?  

But this, though, I completely agree with. Why haven't they sent a messenger to Linden yet? I know Gil-galad announced an end to the war, but since then, several Elves have been kidnapped and killed and Orcs have attacked human settlements. So why not send Gil-galad some sort of update? Does Arondir know something we don't?

And on a related headscratcher - Gil-galad sent out that announcement several episodes ago. Has he....not noticed that several of these Elf scouts never returned, or was he just assuming all of them would decide to take a mini-vacation or travel a bit before coming home? I don't think that last thought is unreasonable - I'm just wondering.

And in terms of barricading everyone in that one building - Arondir had just demonstrated that a building could be pulled down on top of people, killing them, so why was he telling people to hold up in an even flimsier building - especially since he knows that he's not just facing Orcs, but an Elf who seems to have some sort of training? And especially especially since, as you correctly point out, just a few episodes ago everyone was saying that they couldn't even return to the village to get food?

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, quarks said:

To be fair, the show did make a point of reminding us earlier in the episode that Elves can see much further than humans can - so I can sorta buy that as they approached, Galadriel could see a battle ahead and responded with FULL HORSE CHARGE. So I can handwave that a little as long as they didn't try to ride the horses at full speed all the way from the coast.

I didn't even consider this possibility but this is a cool idea that Galadriel saw the village battle from afar.  It was just confusing since the horses were galloping at full force during the daytime while the village was still night, so it felt like they were still very far away, plus views are often blocked on land by hills and mountains and trees.  Were the horses galloping eastward?  I assume they were trying to trick the audience to think the riders were too far away to help so we would be surprised when they suddenly showed up.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Camera One

[RobertDeSneero]

8 hours ago, quarks said:

Why haven't they sent a messenger to Linden yet?

Which elf were they going to send to carry a message to Linden?

[quarks]

3 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Which elf were they going to send to carry a message to Linden?

He didn't need to send an Elf. He could have sent a human.

[PurpleTentacle]

That fight was epic, but I could not enjoy the second half. Orcs fighting in the sunlight? No, just no. Am I supposed to believe that these flimsy cloaks protected them?

Nobody checked if the sword was actually in that bundle? Yeah, these dumbasses all deserve to die. Sad that we know that most of them survice.

This is just bullshit.

Edited October 2, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[quarks]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Nobody checked if the sword was actually in that bundle? Yeah, these dumbasses all deserve to die. Sad that we know that most of them survice.

I mean, yeah, they should have checked. But as far as we know, only five, possibly six people handled that bundle: Waldreg, Adar, Halbrand (maybe), Galadriel, Arondir, and Theo. Of these:

(spoilered for some book/film talk)

Spoiler

1. Waldreg is probably already dead.

2. Adar seems unlikely to survive the series.

3. Halbrand may or may not survive the series - and if he does, may do so as either the King of the Dead, a Nazgul, or Sauron - all of whom are kinda dead and will eventually be not just mostly dead but dead dead. 

4. Galadriel, will survive.

5. Arondir, may or may not survive, depending upon how heavily the show wants to lean into "every Human/Elf romance is a tragedy" thing.

6. Theo, who I personally am hoping will not survive the series, but that's just me, and there's no real indication either way.  And he DID check the bundle!

So that's one guaranteed survivor, and five who may or may not survive. And without getting overly spoilery, not all of the other characters in that overall scene are going to make it, either.

I'll also cut Galadriel and Halbrand a bit of slack here - they weren't told exactly what was in the bundle. I just went back and checked, and Arondir only tells Galadriel that Adar can't be allowed to escape with "the item," without telling her what said item was. Presumably because hey, heat of battle and Adar was getting away, so they didn't have time to get into details. Or because he didn't want to clue more people into the whole HEY THERE IS AN EVIL SWORD AROUND. Yes, they were speaking in Quenya (nitpick: they should have been speaking in Sindar) but the show has established that at least some of the Numenorians speak Quenya and it's possible that some of the Orcs speak it as well. So I can see Arondir deciding to remain vague in public.

Making it all at least possible that Galadriel did open the bundle, saw an item, and figured, ok, got it. And sure, she should have checked with Arondir to confirm that she had the correct item - that's why I'm only cutting her a bit of slack here - but Arondir also should have immediately opened the bundle and realized, whoops! WRONG ITEM and immediately told Galadriel.  

I'm not sure if any of that would have made a difference - sure, Galadriel, Arondir and Halbrand all had horses, and Waldreg was on foot, but Waldreg had a head start of several hours on them. But it would at least have eliminated all of the "WHY DIDN'T THEY CHECK THE BUNDLE?" objections. 

[Camera One]

The problem is the unlikely lack of communication.  If this entire episode took place in the heat of the battle, the loss of the bundle would have been understandable.  However, we saw Galadriel questioning Adar afterwards.  Prior to questioning Adar, Galadriel would/should have spoken to Arondir to find out everything about the situation.  There's no reason why Arondir would be secretive about the hilt, since it could very well have been a weapon/key that belongs to Sauron.  And Galadriel cares about finding Sauron.  It makes more sense that Arondir would have shown it to Galadriel and told her the supernatural properties of it.  Arondir has been shown to be an intelligent character, so there's no way he would just hand it to Theo to "decide" what to do with it, knowing the corrupting powers of evil and after Theo shared the power the hilt had over him.

From Adar's perspective, what he mainly wanted was the sword hilt.  So why didn't he send Waldreg back to the village as a spy, since he knew exactly who had the hilt.  Waldreg and his defectors could have come back pretending they had changed their minds, maybe carrying the body of Theo's friend.  That whole scenario could have given him a chance to connect with Theo and steal the hilt back.  Then, he would ALREADY be at the fortified place where he could use the key.  

To me, this episode was better because we saw characters acting smarter than in previous episodes.  But there is still a ways to go in that department.

[WritinMan]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:47 AM, PeterPirate said:

The three Numenorean ships carried all those horses.  And traveled up-river against the current without oars.  And then the invasion force crossed over the mountains into the Southlands.  Mm-kay.  

Not my picture. I found it online....

Edited October 2, 2022 by WritinMan

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I'll also cut Galadriel and Halbrand a bit of slack here - they weren't told exactly what was in the bundle.

I won't and I especially won't cut the writers slack that nobody tried to communicate. They should have talked to Arondir the second they got back and checked the bundle. Instead they wasted like half an hour. I hate it when supposedly smart characters are written like morons for the sake of plot.

2 hours ago, quarks said:

but Arondir also should have immediately opened the bundle and realized, whoops! WRONG ITEM and immediately told Galadriel.  

That right there is my problem.

42 minutes ago, WritinMan said:

Not my picture. I found it online....

You'd think the propellors would be in the water, but no. It's a marvel of magical engineering. :D

[tennisgurl]

You can really see where that Amazon money went, that battle and the explosion that followed was certainly exciting! As out of nowhere as it felt, it really was cool seeing the Numenoreans showing up to save the day, the whole bit fight between the (supposed) Orcs and the villagers, and the ending really did leave me shocked, I am really interested in seeing where things are going now that shit has gone sideways. 

I actually saw a glimpse of the LOTR era Galadriel for a second there on the boat talking to Isildur, she actually seemed wise and empathetic instead of perpetually sour and arrogant. It was actually a pretty good episode for her in general, at least I liked her more than I have for most of the show so far. 

I think the show really has gotten better, but some of the dialogue is still really bad. "One cannot satisfy thirst by drinking seawater"? What? 

[rab01]

Was I the only one who thought Halbrand was styled to look a lot like Aragorn when he was talking with Galadriel? 

Nobody checking the package is a little annoying but I'm not too hung up on it because it only had an impact on us the viewers.  If they had checked it immediately after Adar's capture, it still would have been too late to stop the catastrophe.   The show did it to make a surprise sad ending and didn't think about how it would make the characters look dumber than they are.

Edited October 8, 2022 by rab01

[go4luca]

44 minutes ago, rab01 said:

Was I the only one who thought Halbrand was styled to look a lot like Aragorn when he was talking with Galadriel? 

You are definitely not alone.  I can't tell you how many times I've had this very same thought.

[Ilovepie]

On 9/29/2022 at 11:25 PM, Camera One said:

After trapping the orcs and toppling the tower, did they seriously just go back to their old village (situated above orc tunnels) to shelter in place?  Arondir knew how many orcs they had.  His own fellow watch guard members couldn't handle them.  What made him think these lowly villagers could?  The "We survived them once before!" speech was a stretch.  Was it not an option to head north or west?

Well, thank goodness the Middle Earth Express delivered Galadriel's army in 3 days or less.  Surely they could have plotted the last few episodes in a way that didn't feel so unlikely and convenient.  

You just summed up all my issues with this episode! I spent most of it yelling at my tv - "What are you idiots doing???? They have an army - you are a handful of untrained peasants plus one badass lady and one elf!" In the words of Gandalf - Run you fools!!!!!! I think I groaned when instead of running after the first escape they doubled down and went back to the village. What! Nooooo!!!!!! It made no sense.

Also making no sense......

I guess it's thrilling to see that army show up, but what? How the hell did they know to get off the boats and ride straight to the podunk village in the middle of nowhere? Are the southlands that small? If so, who exactly is Halbrand the king of? The few villagers left after that skirmish? I guess it doesn't matter now that it's turned into Mordor......

So frustrating that Galadriel didn't kill Adar. Plot armor? I actually thought he made a good argument about the orcs deserving life just like everyone else, and I laughed when he told her he wasn't the only one with some darkness inside. Score one for Adar! You know a show is going wrong when you are rooting for the bad orc daddy instead of Galadriel, but geez they are making her hard to like.

The creation of Mount Doom was epic. Best thing this show has done so far.

[PurpleTentacle]

12 hours ago, rab01 said:

If they had checked it immediately after Adar's capture, it still would have been tool ate to stop the catastrophe. 

They wasted an enormous amount of time and dude with the real sword was on foot. With a horse there would have been more than enough time to stop him. So no, it was not just about us the viewers and I'm still immensly annoyed about it.

11 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

You just summed up all my issues with this episode! I spent most of it yelling at my tv - "What are you idiots doing???? They have an army - you are a handful of untrained peasants plus one badass lady and one elf!" In the words of Gandalf - Run you fools!!!!!! I think I groaned when instead of running after the first escape they doubled down and went back to the village. What! Nooooo!!!!!! It made no sense.

Especially if you want to keep the MacGuffin out of the bad guys hands. Running away isn't just the right decision to save your own lifes, but also to foil the evil guys plans.

11 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I guess it's thrilling to see that army show up, but what? How the hell did they know to get off the boats and ride straight to the podunk village in the middle of nowhere? Are the southlands that small? If so, who exactly is Halbrand the king of? The few villagers left after that skirmish? I guess it doesn't matter now that it's turned into Mordor......

And I'm still not clear if it was supposed to be the same day where we saw the sunrise on the ships or a day later. The same day wouldn't make sense, but we were also given no indication that another day had passed and there is a lot on this show that doesn't make sense, so...

11 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

The creation of Mount Doom was epic. Best thing this show has done so far.

Epic but dumb. Could some water falling on magma cause an eruption? Yeah. But is it realistic that there is just a massive exposed cavern instead of it being well underground, if the vulcano has been dormant for forever (at least that's how it seemed)? No.

Also would it just be active for thousands of years afterwards? Also no.

It really should have been magic that ignited Mount Doom and keeps it active for thousands of years. The writers seem to not want to actually use the fantasy setting this show is set in.

[Ilovepie]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It really should have been magic that ignited Mount Doom and keeps it active for thousands of years.

Who is to say it wasn't magic that ignited it? That sword thing seems magical - maybe that's why they needed it. Not just to unlock the sequence, but to ignite the eruption?

[Ilovepie]

On 10/1/2022 at 10:56 AM, quarks said:

To be fair, the show did make a point of reminding us earlier in the episode that Elves can see much further than humans can - so I can sorta buy that as they approached, Galadriel could see a battle ahead and responded with FULL HORSE CHARGE. So I can handwave that a little as long as they didn't try to ride the horses at full speed all the way from the coast.

I think it's a failing of the show that we have to come up with answers like this to make the plot work. A better choice would have been if they had showed Galadriel looking for orc activity after exiting the ships and tracking them in a way that led them to the village. At least that would have made sense and fit with what she was doing in episode one. As it was edited, it just made no sense.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

I think it's a failing of the show that we have to come up with answers like this to make the plot work. A better choice would have been if they had showed Galadriel looking for orc activity after exiting the ships and tracking them in a way that led them to the village. At least that would have made sense and fit with what she was doing in episode one. As it was edited, it just made no sense.

The way I interpret it, the Numenoreans first headed to the Ostirith tower based on what Halbrand said in the previous episode.  From there they spotted the Orcs heading towards the village and knew which direction to go.  

And then they rode at full speed, all night, in the dark, because the Horses of Westernesse can run forever on one bite of an apple and have headlights for eyes.  (OK, I made that last part up.)  

Edited October 4, 2022 by PeterPirate

[RobertDeSneero]

14 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I think it's a failing of the show that we have to come up with answers like this to make the plot work.

I'm a fan of shows not trying to explain every little detail, leaving room for fan theories.  Having little things to debate that are never fully resolved make books/show/movies better.

Edited October 5, 2022 by RobertDeSneero

[PurpleTentacle]

17 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

Who is to say it wasn't magic that ignited it? That sword thing seems magical - maybe that's why they needed it. Not just to unlock the sequence, but to ignite the eruption?

Obviously the writers, since they showed it was not magic that ignited it.

[Ilovepie]

9 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I'm a fan of shows not trying to explain every little detail, leaving room for fan theories.  Having little things to debate that are never fully resolved make books/show/movies better.

I guess that's a different way of looking at it. I don't need every detail spelled out, but when the plot doesn't hold together on it's own without fan theories piecing it together, it's just bad editing/writing/plotting....

[shrewd.buddha]

This episode had a lot of action and special effects, which was impressive. 
That managed to distract from all the nonsense logic, which there was A LOT of:

On 10/2/2022 at 4:39 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Nobody checked if the sword was actually in that bundle? Yeah, these dumbasses all deserve to die.

The object in the fake bundle was not a similar size, shape or weight as the original sword hilt. 
Theo was linked to the object and therefore knew where it was hidden and that it wasn't in the bundle.  But why would the Elf Guy just give the bundle to Theo, unopened -- and why would Theo just stare at it and not immediately run to tell someone the hilt was gone? 
And there really wasn't enough time for Adar to switch out the bundles and tell his human helper what to do. 

On 10/3/2022 at 5:27 PM, Ilovepie said:

I guess it's thrilling to see that army show up, but what? How the hell did they know to get off the boats and ride straight to the podunk village in the middle of nowhere?

It's not Lord of the Rings without an epic scene of a calvary arriving to save a group of people from certain death. But the timing and travel logistics did not add up. There should have been something about how the army knew the villagers were in trouble.  A quick scene would have worked.
Where are the eagles when you need them? 

On 10/3/2022 at 5:27 PM, Ilovepie said:

So frustrating that Galadriel didn't kill Adar.

The capture and interrogation of Adar was straight out of an old James Bond movie.  Leave the prisoner tied up with no guards around so that he can escape -- because the plot needs the villain to constantly stay ahead of the good guys. 
They are really emphasizing the obsessed vigilante nature of Galadriel.  Is she supposed to be the LotR version of Batman?!?

On 10/4/2022 at 5:22 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Could some water falling on magma cause an eruption?

The water hitting the magma could cause an explosion of steam but it would have also caused some cooling.  That was a convoluted way of making is seem as if Adar could trigger a volcanic eruption with a system of tunnels. It seems ingenious - - but doesn't make sense. 

I don't want book spoilers, but I do wonder if some of this ridiculousness is the result of the writers not sticking to what was written in the books.
They do seem to have put a lot of money into the special effects and action sequences, though.. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[Anduin]

46 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

And there really wasn't enough time for Adar to switch out the bundles and tell his human helper what to do.

The water hitting the magma could cause an explosion of steam but it would have also caused some cooling.  That was a convoluted way of making is seem as if Adar could trigger a volcanic eruption with a system of tunnels. It seems ingenious - - but doesn't make sense. 

I don't want book spoilers, but I do wonder if some of this ridiculousness is the result of the writers not sticking to what was written in the books.
They do seem to have put a lot of money into the special effects and action sequences, though.. 

Waldreg already knew what to do. The sword was hidden in his barn. He's been a worshipper of Sauron all along.

Yes it's plausible. Good article. And a video involving just one jerry can.

[PeterPirate]

Middle Earth water is magical, because instead of flooding the Plain of Udun, it happily traveled in a trench over a hundred miles in just a few minutes to reach Orodruin.  And then when it hit the lava, it was extra explody, because it would take millions of gallons of regular water to blow the top of a mountain.  

"It's magic" is a perfectly acceptable answer to all questions of logic.  

Besides, they popped a volcano in everybody's azz.  So s'all good, man. 

[Welshman in Ca]

Everybody seems to be missing the point about it being FANTASY so anything is possible and asking if such & such is possible can be answered the same way every time. It doesn't matter as it's FANTASY !

[shrewd.buddha]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

Waldreg already knew what to do. The sword was hidden in his barn. He's been a worshipper of Sauron all along.

When Theo gave Adar the hilt, the Numenar army was already there. Adar and his human would have to had already planned the switch-out. Adar would have had to anticipate being chased and captured by an army he didn't expect.  Waldreg would have to had been given instructions on how to use the hilt as the key as well as know the special location.  Again, this could have seemed more plausible with just a few quick scenes added - even as flashbacks.

Yes, things can be excused by saying "it's magic" , "it's a fantasy" or "a wizard did it".
But these problems are not things like water being turned into wine, humans becoming werewolves or dragons existing.
These are things like non-magical water flowing uphill, a horse calvary running at night in an unfamiliar place, Galadriel and Halbrand being told to not let Adar escape with that thing but never bothering to ask about or look at that thing and  Arondir giving that thing to Theo instead of any of the adults or military leaders.

I don't recall any of this type of illogical stuff happening in the LotR or Hobbit movies. (Did it?) It just seems like sloppy writing and editing. 
I still think LotR:tRoP is an entertaining show ... but it is also a hot mess. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[PurpleTentacle]

6 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

When Theo gave Adar the hilt, the Numenar army was already there. Adar and his human would have to had already planned the switch-out. Adar would have had to anticipate being chased and captured by an army he didn't expect.  Waldreg would have to had been given instructions on how to use the hilt as the key as well as know the special location.  Again, this could have seemed more plausible with just a few quick scenes added - even as flashbacks.

But how/why would he have planed that out beforehand? They didn't know the numenorian army would be coming. There was no need for a switcheroo plan. Still makes no sense, even if you put in flashbacks.

[shrewd.buddha]

13 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

They didn't know the numenorian army would be coming. There was no need for a switcheroo plan.

Yes, as it was shown it didn't make sense. Adar didn't know an army was coming.  He didn't know how large the army was or that his Orcs would be outnumbered. The fake bundle plan would have to have been made when Adar realized they were in trouble. Adar would have needed to make a fake bundle, locate the human and tell him what to do with the actual power object.  There was no indication any of that had time to happen during the battle. 

Adar could have immediately handed off the hilt and tried to create as much of a distraction as possible to give the guy time to get to the special place and put the key in the lock.. but the writers made a mess of setting it up because they wanted a OMG moment that no one saw coming. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[Scout Finch]

Villagers: "Woo hoo! We fought off the Orcs!"

Villagers: "Another attack?! Okay, we've totally vanquished them this time! Let's have a huge celebration!"

"Hi, I'm your new neighbor, Mount Doom."

Yeah, there's no way anyone or anything would have survived being that close. Mount St. Helens flattened and completely burned everything within at least 50 miles, and all the way down in Portland, at least a hundred miles away was coated in light ash. Heck, my mom and I were even farther away from Portland camping on the Oregon Coast and we knew the volcano had exploded because there was a very slight covering of ash on our tent when we woke up. Also, it really bothers my lungs when the wind blows smoke here from wildfires a few hundred miles away. Last year, for the first time I can ever remember, we had an entire week of it in Portland and the air quality was so bad you were advised not to be outside for any length of time. Not that it was even possible for me to totally seal off the inside of my apartment from it so I did a makeshift air purifier with a filter, box fan, and wet towel to sit in front of but was also concerned about my cats breathing in the smoke. So it's impossible that the smoke inhalation alone wouldn't have killed those in the village not long after!

Edited October 8, 2022 by Scout Finch

[Hanahope]

Well Adar had to give it to Waldreg because his mark made the hilt grow into a magic sword. it had to do that to open the water locks. 
 

They show Adar leaving the tavern with the hilt and immediately saying “Waldreg, I have a task for you.”  Then the army attacked.  In the ensuing fight, Adar grabs an axe, bundles it up and rides out.  Adar knew Waldreg had to do the sword bit and he was loyal enough to do it.

if the elves had opened the package, they might have been able to catch Waldreg , but yup they didn’t.