S01.E06: The Princess And The Queen

[magdalene]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

A lopt of other stuff happened in this ep but we finally have proof that Daemon can complete sex and impregnate a woman. More than once even, so proud of him! (I joke, but I don't think we were meant to think he went limp every time.)

Disappointed they decided to cut a shot of him hugging his daughters after their mother's death, which can be seen in one of the BtS vids on HBOMAX.

Shakes head. Why would they cut this? It's important to see that Daemon is capable of comforting his children when they really need it.  Why did I have to infer from the body language of the characters that neither his children or his wife were at all cowed by him? Why so little time with their family?

[RobertDeSneero]

I consider Alicent to be the most likable adult who survives to the end of this episode.  She's struggling with the cognitive dissonance of believing that honor and decency will win out in the end but living in a world created by GRRM.  She's naïve enough to not predict that Larys would kill his own father and brother on her behalf and to be horrified when told that it happened.

Rhaenyra sounded like she was being forced by daddy V to make her offer to Alicent.  And Alicent is having none of it, although she was polite enough to say it would be considered rather than outright saying no.  I don't think Alicent would say no if Jace actually looked like Laenor's kid or if he at least had the Targaryan hair so there was plausible deniability.  The incel crowd was up in arms about black Velaryons, but I think the racial casting has made this plot point better.

Everything Ser Criston said about Rhaenyra is true.  Some think he sounds jealous.  I think he sounds like a recovering alcoholic who blames Rhaenyra for the equivalent of inducing him to fall off the wagon, leading him to do regrettable things that he's ashamed of, and now he hates her for ruining his life.  My head canon is that everyone (except Laenor) hated Joffrey and are glad to see him dead, so no one is greatly bothered to see his killer still around.

Daemon is indecisive.  He didn't know what to say or do on the Stepstones until his brother sent word that help was on the way.  He didn't quite know what to do with his paralyzed wife until she pointed out his inability to finish.  He couldn't make a decision about Laena so she had to take it upon herself to commit suicide by dragon.  He is most able to act out of emotion or impulse, without consideration of the consquences.

[dramachick]

I'm still pissed about Laena. She would have been an interesting character to follow. She was just like her mother, Rhaenys. She saw things clearly. She talked truth to Daemon as his life partner, which is probably why they got on so well. It's a shame there's no room in this universe for a woman character like that to be a featured player as opposed to those experiencing unrelenting dysfunction and misery. 

Even a character like Sansa would provide a touch of light in this dark, dark world. (Running out before SilverStormm sees this 😉.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Why did I have to infer from the body language of the characters that neither his children or his wife were at all cowed by him? 

I think it shows that this show at least have some ambition: things aren't said directly but we must make interpretations (that can be different). Plus, language can lie, but lying is harder, although not impossible, with body language.  

[PurpleTentacle]

7 hours ago, LanceM said:

Actually Laenor was introduced as the”future king consort”.  Not sure what title he is using now until that happens. 

Like I said, I remember that and am going to ignore it for now, until it actually happens and they keep the title. Since it's dumb.

[nilyank]

What I don't understand why it matters if Ser Hardwin fathered the boys when Laenor is claiming them as his sons and they were all born in wedlock? Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and the boys are her sons. As she said, Jace (and his brothers) are Targaryen. It's not like Cersei passing off Jamie's kids as Robert's who was king.

[DigitalCount]

47 minutes ago, nilyank said:

What I don't understand why it matters if Ser Hardwin fathered the boys when Laenor is claiming them as his sons and they were all born in wedlock? Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and the boys are her sons. As she said, Jace (and his brothers) are Targaryen. It's not like Cersei passing off Jamie's kids as Robert's who was king.

It seems to be a question of right and wrong for Alicent. The fact that there's no harm or theft of rightful position is largely irrelevant; what Rhaenyra is doing is wrong from a fantasy medieval religious standpoint, so Alicent opposes it on moral grounds, or at least that's the impression that I get from her and various comments. Rhaenyra's sons are the product of adultery, by her standards inherently illegitimate, and so putting them on the throne is itself an absurdity. In Alicent's mind, Rhaenyra has no heirs, and Aegon should sit the throne instead of her, or at least after her death. Yes, the line of royalty flows through Rhaenyra, but that's a practical consideration. Alicent seems very rules-oriented and unlikely to consider practical considerations.

[magdalene]

31 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Alicent seems very rules-oriented and unlikely to consider practical considerations.

And yet this paragon of rules and virtue is in cahoots with a guy who just had his own father and brother burned alive. Maybe just a tad hypocritical?

You can't be honorable and make use of Larys Strong.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, nilyank said:

What I don't understand why it matters if Ser Hardwin fathered the boys when Laenor is claiming them as his sons and they were all born in wedlock? Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and the boys are her sons. As she said, Jace (and his brothers) are Targaryen. It's not like Cersei passing off Jamie's kids as Robert's who was king.

Irl it would be essential if the children were "lawfully begotten", and children born of wife's adultery were not such. Even raising suspicion about paternity was used as a weapon in the struggle about the throne. F.ex. the Yorkists claimed that Queen Margaret of Anjou's son was not begotten by Henry VI who was ignorant of the world for months.

If somebody knows how it was in this in this fantasy universe, please tell. 

So far, I doubt that Alicent wouldn't have raised the question if there wasn't a chance that it was extremely important. It seems it's only due to Viserys' weakness that he hasn't discredited his daughter and her sons. 

Instead, what Rhaenys said to her son was no legal argument but a mother's way to comfort her son. It was interesting that she concentrated only on his succession rights. Was it the only matter that she thought interested him? Was she right or did he feel more crushed about personal matters: to learn that man who he had believed was his father and who had evidently treated him well wasn't his father but somebody else whom he also liked. Did he felt betrayed by his mother and these two men? If so, how does it influence on his views about people?         

[RobertDeSneero]

27 minutes ago, magdalene said:

And yet this paragon of rules and virtue is in cahoots with a guy who just had his own father and brother burned alive. Maybe just a tad hypocritical?

I think it's pretty clear that she had no desire to see them killed and was appalled at what Larys did.  Now that it's done, it's clear she has few allies and has to accept her flawed options.

[Avabelle]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think it's pretty clear that she had no desire to see them killed and was appalled at what Larys did.  Now that it's done, it's clear she has few allies and has to accept her flawed options.

But what did she think was going to happen? How did she think he was going to help her? It’s all very well to be upset and shocked and appalled AFTER he’s done the deed.

I just don’t get her stress over it all. Rhaenyra suggested alliance through marriage so clearly has no intention of murder. She is the heir to the throne so aside from Alicent just wanting the throne for her son out of bitterness and greed I don’t get her motives at all.

[Cristofle]

The hair color thing was always an interesting plot point in the show given that Sean Bean did not really look like the dark-haired Northern lord, nor did he look like any of his siblings that we saw. In general, these people clearly pay too much attention to hair color, lol, but there is the other glaring issue with Laenor vs Harwin in this particular depiction that makes what Rhaenyra and Harwin were doing extra dangerous. I echo everyone wondering why she and Laenor didn't try harder to have at least heir that looked like them both or even just Laenor. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they tried and it didn't work, but it would be nice to give some sort of confirmation rather than just not explaining why they were both seemingly content to be so reckless. Rhaenyra seemed a little bit more snappy with Laenor than vice versa over the whole thing - she didn't seem to think he was trying hard enough to sell it. I figured that, on top of naming their son after his dead lover without consulting her, was probably why she was annoyed about the name. I feel like Laenor is affectionate towards the boys, but not necessarily highly invested, at least as of right now. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Cristofle

[Jack Shaftoe]

2 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think it's pretty clear that she had no desire to see them killed and was appalled at what Larys did.  Now that it's done, it's clear she has few allies and has to accept her flawed options.

It's been more than 10 years since Aegon was born and anyone with a clue must have known all along that if Aegon survives, all hell will break loose once Viserys kicks the bucket. Why do both Alicent and Rhaenyra have so few allies? Are there really no power hungry nobles in Westeros who want to ingratiate themselves with the future heirs and, more importantly at this point, with their mothers?

4 hours ago, nilyank said:

What I don't understand why it matters if Ser Hardwin fathered the boys when Laenor is claiming them as his sons and they were all born in wedlock? Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and the boys are her sons.

Because Rhaenyra's claim to the throne is tenuous even without the adultery rumours. The existence of said rumours is a godsend for any noble who wants an excuse to repudiate the oath to accept her as an heir. Also, if Corlys is still alive, he must be extremely pissed that none of the children seem to be Laenor's.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[nodorothyparker]

5 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

My head canon is that everyone (except Laenor) hated Joffrey and are glad to see him dead, so no one is greatly bothered to see his killer still around.

The only way I can make what we're shown work is if I fanwank that the Velaryons were actually relieved that their son's lover had been removed from the equation before he and Laenor could become the subject of gossip before the royal court. We are given the scene during the marriage negotiations of Corlys insisting that Laenor will "outgrow" it once he's married. But it's hard to think if that's the case this franchise would be able to resist a scene in the vein of Edward Longshanks chucking his son's lover out a window a la Braveheart.

This is where a followup scene with the Velaryons would have been really helpful. Or even one in the current timeline. Are we supposed to believe Corlys and Rhaenys haven't been the least bit interested in their royal grandchildren for the last 10 years or at least heard the rumors about them?

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, nilyank said:

What I don't understand why it matters if Ser Hardwin fathered the boys when Laenor is claiming them as his sons and they were all born in wedlock? Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and the boys are her sons. As she said, Jace (and his brothers) are Targaryen. It's not like Cersei passing off Jamie's kids as Robert's who was king.

But it is much like that. In GOT/HOD, parentage matters. Being a bastard is thought to automatically and inherently make you of low character and to deprive you of rights. Now a king can legitimize a bastard, and so presumably could a queen. But the notion that Rhae might have to do that shows how precarious things would be.

Already there's apparently a good portion of the realm who, we are told, would set it to torch before having a woman take the throne. Having a woman who was a (by their way of thinking) slut who had three bastards that she was putting in the line of succession and not one legitimate heir? A woman who repeatedly and deliberately violated one of the most fundamental laws of society and nature?

The ways it didn't matter are generally worse for Rhae and company. From what we were shown in GOT, very few people thought that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were not Robert's true-born children and even after Ned raised the allegation few people seemingly credited it as true. Here, it seems pretty apparent that Jace, the middle one and Joffrey all look like Strongs and are not Velaryons, and at least two of Rhae's adversaries have realized it. Things have gotten to the point where she feels the best course of action as the future queen is still to peace out.

Another thing to bring up: if one buys into the subtext that Ali had/has romantic feelings for Rhae, it is perhaps jealousy driving things as well. Or perhaps simply envy that Rhae is having sex with hot men, and she's been stuck with decrepit old Viscerys who has somehow managed to stave off his many illnesses to limp along for yet another 10 years.

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

And yet this paragon of rules and virtue is in cahoots with a guy who just had his own father and brother burned alive. Maybe just a tad hypocritical?

You can't be honorable and make use of Larys Strong.

It is obvious to us viewers who and what Larys Strong is, but it was not necessarily to Ali. I think it was clear from her reaction that she was not expecting or condoning the double murder. And now she has been put in a bind where she is incentivized to protect Larys, because if he is caught, he will 100 percent pretend he acted at the direction of the Queen so that Otto could be restored as Hand.

[Affogato]

20 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Alicent's interactions with her children make sense considering she had her kids when she was so young, and she associates her children with all the miserable sex she's endured. She has little maternal instinct and views her children as weapons and not people. 

I thought she was scared for them and sees herself and the kids as highly vulnerable. When they make asses of themselves or reveal themselves as cruel or stupid it opens up the family to criticism. As with any legal battle, Alicent is (after all) accusing Rhaenerys of certain things, and people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Affogato

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, if Corlys is still alive, he must be extremely pissed that none of the children seem to be Laenor's.

If?  Unless his actor did something very bad (which would have made the news if it happened) there's no way in hell they would just kill off such an important character in a time jump for both in-universe and real world reasons.  That's reserved for minor folks like the grand maester.

[paigow]

24 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

If?  Unless his actor did something very bad (which would have made the news if it happened) there's no way in hell they would just kill off such an important character in a time jump for both in-universe and real world reasons.  That's reserved for minor folks like the grand maester.

What in-universe reason would there be for BOTH grandparents not hanging around the castle pre-birth?

[TV Anonymous]

I am not sure if this discussed upthread, but did Rhaenyra offer that the King's grandson marries the King's daughter?

[Sakura12]

The Hightowers weakness is their one track mind. They want Aegon on the throne but are going about it stupidly. They should be gathering allies that are for Aegon as king. Hopefully that is what Otto was doing while he was banished. Because all Alicent seems to be doing is bitching and moaning about Rheanyra. She hasn't even prepared her son to rule. He doesn't even seem to want it. Cercei was probably telling Joffrey about how great he'll be as king while he was in her womb. 

Alicent has allies, one to be in her I hate Rheanyra club and one she could be utilizing to whisper in the ears of the court. Of course now she knows that the price of getting the throne is death.  She's worried about Rheanyra killing her kids and not thinking about having to kill Rhaenyra and her kids. 

Also Rheanyra is a princess of course she's a spoiled brat. What were Alicent and Criston expecting? She was born with more privileges then they were. That's how it works. Are they that naive and dumb. Taking it out on innocent children is a dick move. Criston was upset about his honor but he doesn't seem to have much of it. Also why is he teaching the kids swordsmenship don't they have a sword master for that, isn't he supposed to be guarding the queen.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Avabelle said:

But what did she think was going to happen? How did she think he was going to help her? It’s all very well to be upset and shocked and appalled AFTER he’s done the deed.

I just don’t get her stress over it all. Rhaenyra suggested alliance through marriage so clearly has no intention of murder. She is the heir to the throne so aside from Alicent just wanting the throne for her son out of bitterness and greed I don’t get her motives at all.

On the basis what we have seen of Alicent, she didn't think anything would happen. She was just speaking aloud how worried and frustrated she is. If she had been an experienced schemer, she would have considered thoroughly what kind of person her ally is - although it would even then have stretched imagination how evil acts he will be capable of (murder, especially murder of one's own kin, isn't in the same level than telling tales to harm somebody).  

A suggestion of alliance doesn't necessarily exclude a murder plan, on the contrary it can be a clever trick to lull her enemies to peace (cf. Michael Corleone). Not that I doubt that Rhaenyra has such plans now, but what matters is the future when Viserys is dead. Events tend to escalate when parties don't trust each other. In addition, Rhaenyra has had ten years to make a peace offering to Alicent, so the question is: why is it made only now? Out of desperation?

Queens just want the throne to her own son, even if the king has an elder son by her late wife. The same applies to mothers of pretenders (cf. Margaret Beaufort).

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

What in-universe reason would there be for BOTH grandparents not hanging around the castle pre-birth?

If Criston can kill someone in the middle of a wedding feast and slug the groom without any issues then the proud grandparents can be chilling on Driftmark.  Maybe they’re less excited about the spare’s spare, especially since they know Laenor isn’t the father.  Or maybe it’s just crappy writing.  On the other hand, killing off your only black main character (sorry Laenor, but you aren’t there yet) offscreen for no apparent reason would unleash an epic storm of criticism.  Heck, some people were mad because a gay character died last week and his death was more justifiable on account of him being a stupid twit. 

[Cristofle]

47 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Taking it out on innocent children is a dick move.

I know there is a Westerosi belief that bastard children are somehow inherently inferior human beings, but in practice, this isn't any more sympathetic to watch than Catelyn Stark's treatment of Jon Snow, and probably even less understandable since Alicent isn't being asked to help raise another child of her own husband that he supposedly conceived with another woman while already married to her. Rhaenyra's children are not responsible for the actions of their parents, and the prank on Aemond was not nice (but fully participated in by Aemond's own older brother) but hardly a justification for declaring they are terrible humans. 

Also, no one with three kids as creepy and weird as Alicent's has any business calling someone else's kids savages, lol.

[Bannon]

Eh, I've tried to give this story a fair viewing,but the characters, overwhelmingly, are such shallow A-holes, but more importantly such humorless/tedious shallow A-holes, that the whole thing is a yawn. Characters like Tywin, Tyrion, Bronn, The Hound, etc. were funny. This story has none of that kind of fun. I'm out.

[The Kings Foot]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

I am not sure if this discussed upthread, but did Rhaenyra offer that the King's grandson marries the King's daughter?

Targs gotta Targ

[Avabelle]

I think there’s glimmers of humour (albeit sadistic) with Aegon and Damon. Everyone else though. Rhaenyra has a bit of spirit. The rest though.. meh,

[Affogato]

37 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I know there is a Westerosi belief that bastard children are somehow inherently inferior human beings, but in practice, this isn't any more sympathetic to watch than Catelyn Stark's treatment of Jon Snow, and probably even less understandable since Alicent isn't being asked to help raise another child of her own husband that he supposedly conceived with another woman while already married to her. Rhaenyra's children are not responsible for the actions of their parents, and the prank on Aemond was not nice (but fully participated in by Aemond's own older brother) but hardly a justification for declaring they are terrible humans. 

Also, no one with three kids as creepy and weird as Alicent's has any business calling someone else's kids savages, lol.

Cat didn't have a problem with Jon being raised and supported by Ned, she had a problem with being asked to raise him as a full equal with her own, legitimate children. Likewise, I suppose, Alicent has gone through a lot to have Viserys's children and may  be particularly angry that Rhaenerys's bastard children will have more status than her legitimate ones.

[Oscirus]

Larys is my type of villain, hes not a villain for villains sake like joffrey or ramsey and hes not a simp getting revenge due to unrequited love like Little finger. This dude is ambitious to the bones, which makes him much more fun since controlled chaos is intriguing.

Sucks that rhanerya has to deal with 4 kids since even Laenor cant be bothered to knock her up or even play the father role other than naming one of the kids after his dead lover (good cover there, genius).  That being said presenting 3 bastard kids as legitimate is beyond ridiculous. At this point you're just asking for the scorn.

That ten-year time jump is stupid it just yada yadas a lot of important stuff and leaves more questions than answers. Also, doesn't allow me to connect with characters like Laena or Harwin before their deaths since I barely knew them before that.

Im not totally against team green cuz Alicent does have some points, but Cole just sucks at this point.  Im interested in seeing what the kids become, because those are likely to be the real team green when they grow up.

[ybrik]

Regarding building alliances, I think the Hightowers have probably been doing things behind the scene especially since Alicent wore the green dress. I can see Otto taken this as a cue that she was ready. Hell we assume Larys just went off on his own to do what the Queen wanted expecting something in return. What if Otto has already made promises to Larys or at least made alliance with him without Alicent being aware. Otto may not want to have these alliances being made in King’s Landing where people loyal to the King and/or Rhaenyra can find out about. 

Alicent may have become extreme in the last ten years but I think I understand why it has occurred. It came to me when I was looking at people defending her on Twitter and made a comment about how she is a victim of marital rape. And it made me think, she wouldn’t see it like that. She would see herself as doing her duty as a wife like generations of women had done. When they were young, Rhaenyra’s rebellious nature probably intrigued Alicent and was attractive to her. However, once Alicent got married and has been doing what she sees is her duty in society and Rhaenyra not only is trying to shake up the system by becoming the heir but is flaunting not following society rules. Sleeping with Criston was bad but I think that Alicent may have gotten over it but Rhaenyra doesn’t even fulfill her duty as a wife. She sees herself doing everything that her society requires of her and is seemingly not being rewarded while Rhaenyra is doing all the wrongs things and continuously being rewarded.

This is the moment for Alicent though, she has been doing things the right way and being moral. However, now she knows what Larys has done she can either turn him in or shut him out if she wants to continue on her high ground. But if she keeps Larys as a confident  and part of her inner circle the she is condoning it and any future actions he does.             

[aghst]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think it's pretty clear that she had no desire to see them killed and was appalled at what Larys did.  Now that it's done, it's clear she has few allies and has to accept her flawed options.

She could turn Larys in.  I'm sure Viserys would be interested to learn who murdered his Hand.

She could tell Larys never to talk to her or come near her again.

Guessing she won't do any of that.

[Dac22]

9 hours ago, nilyank said:

As she said, Jace (and his brothers) are Targaryen. It's not like Cersei passing off Jamie's kids as Robert's who was king.

I think it goes beyond the Iron Throne though.

For example, the second oldest boy is theoretically behind Corlys and Laenor when it comes to being the head of House Velaryon through Laenor being his 'father'. 

24 minutes ago, aghst said:

She could turn Larys in.  I'm sure Viserys would be interested to learn who murdered his Hand.

She could tell Larys never to talk to her or come near her again.

Guessing she won't do any of that.

She really can't because Larys will simply point the finger at her and say she ordered it. 

Their 'friendship' appears to be common knowledge so it would be believable, and with how Larys said she owes him a reward, he has her bent over the barrel now.  

[proserpina65]

On 9/25/2022 at 10:14 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Are we supposed be on Alicent's side? Because I'm kind of...not.

I'm not sure we're supposed to be on either side, really.  I'm definitely not.  I don't really like anyone now that the good Hand of the King and Laena are dead.  A couple of the kids are okay (not that wanker Aegon, though) and surprisingly I kinda felt sorry for Daemon in this episode, but really, everyone else is varying degrees of awful.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:17 PM, aquarian1 said:

I know this an UPO but this Rhaenyra is not doing it for me.

Whereas I hated Milly Alcock, so Emma D'Arcy is an improvement.  Still don't like the character but at least her face doesn't bug the hell out of me now.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:19 PM, scarynikki12 said:

but at least he didn’t have Laena butchered like Viserys did Aemma.

I don't think either of them had a good option.  For me, the only thing Viserys did wrong was not tell Aemma what was going to happen.

I liked this episode.  A lot actually happened for a change.  And there were more dragons.  Honestly, I'm just here for the dragons.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:29 PM, Enigma X said:

I was all ready to be Team Harwin. Damn. 

I wasn't going to be Team Harwin, but he was one of the less awful characters, and I did like his father.  Oh well.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:28 PM, Sakura12 said:

So how is it that Harwin punches a member of the kings guard and gets kicked out of the watch, but Criston punches the future king consort and kills a guard of a noble house and now gets to guard the Queen?

Because he had the protection of the Queen.  I think Alicent must've worked on his behalf.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:28 PM, Sakura12 said:

And Alicent throwing around her power by making a woman who just gave birth to come to her then say she should be resting.

To be fair, she only demanded to see the baby.  The summons didn't require Rhaenyra's presence.  Now, sure, she'd probably have had a fit if Laenor had arrived with "his" son instead, but the servant didn't specifically say the princess had to go.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, dramachick said:

So far, she appears to be driven solely by her personal wants and desires, everyone else be damned. Are we supposed to believe that she would be a good queen?

I don't think we're supposed to think that at all.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, dramachick said:

Who are the heroes?

There are none.  Pretty much every adult on the show sucks.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:39 PM, SilverStormm said:

As king, I'm surprised that Viserys didn't pull rank on Alicent and accept the proposed betrothal, his ongoing spinelessness irritates.

I think he's always been a weak king.  That's just his character.  A strong king would've been more forceful about supporting whomever he chose as his heir.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:40 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Helaena, who seems a bit strange

I couldn't even watch that scene - I'm terrified of centipedes.

On 9/25/2022 at 10:58 PM, Jaundiced Eye said:

Laena chose her method of death, but she took her child with her. Not sure how I feel about that.

Apparently the only alternative would've been cutting the child out of her, and we've seen how that goes.  And again, the maester didn't necessarily think that would save the child.  Plus, one more innocent coming in to the shitshow that is this family wouldn't bode well for the child if it survived.

On 9/25/2022 at 11:30 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Wouldn't Laena have known how to hatch it?

Laena made a comment that about half of the dragon eggs never hatched.  Apparently it's a crapshoot.  She didn't get her dragon from an egg.  She bonded with Vhagar, the queen who'd been ridden by Viserys' father Baelon and by Aegon the Conqueror's sister Visenya before that.

On 9/25/2022 at 11:31 PM, magdalene said:

This is the first time jump that has bothered me. I wanted to see Elena claiming her dragon. How she and Daemon actually got together. Why are we in such a rush to skip such good stuff? I am also upset about losing Harwin so soon (and what an awful way to go out). I wanted to see his love story with Rhaenyra.

I honestly wish it would've jumped even farther and we could just skip to the war that surely is coming between factions.  The political stuff is boring to me.  I get that we need the background but it is just tedious.  So I appreciated that so much happened in this episode and that we didn't waste time on the other stuff.

Edited September 27, 2022 by proserpina65

[Enigma X]

At this point, I was going to be Team Harwin for purely shallow reasons. I do find most of the characters to be stupid, selfish, or horrible. So, why not go with pure shallow until I am given a reason not to be.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Enigma X

[Bombadil]

So, Ser Criston Cole beats Ser Joffrey Lonmouth to death at Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding feast and fucks all the wedding celebration and preparations for the King, the Princess and heir, and just *everybody* else, namingly ALL the noble houses of Westeros. And after THAT...   nothing happens to him? really?? he keeps being Kings Guard as if nothing happened? he doesn't have to answer for his crime and the outrageous disrespect to the King, the Princess, her betrothed and ALL the noble houses present? he doesn't even have to say any motive? to at least justify WHY he killed that guest Ser to death?

But to top it up, Ser Harwin Strong, being Commander of the City Watch, gets kicked out just for punching him in a sparring session? what kind of "Kings Guard" is this son of a steward, that being on duty can kill a guest Ser at a Royal wedding feast and fucks everything so bad it forces the King to make a shotgun wedding? and not only he doesn't get arrested for his crime or even kicked of his post, but a Commander of the City Watch from a noble house loses his title for touching his pretty face?

What kind of stupid plot armor level 1000+ is this?

Then you get a non-group of 10 nobodys, stupidly label them with your sigil for no reason, and they are able to infiltrate Harrenhal and make a fire that kills the 2 more important and more protected people? where were the dozens of soldiers and servants that are always on watch on a castle like that?  What could they possible were doing instead of watching their Lords? were they too busy building a plot armor for Ser Criston?

[Jack Shaftoe]

34 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

She really can't because Larys will simply point the finger at her and say she ordered it. 

Their 'friendship' appears to be common knowledge so it would be believable,

Would it really? He has a much better motive than she does (assuming he has no other brothers and is going to inherit his father's lands). Not to mention the king has shown a remarkable ability to ignore stuff that doesn't fit into his idea of how things should be, so he probably won't be all that inclined to believe his wife ordered an assassination even if the evidence were overwhelming. Kinslaying is very serious crime in Westeros, a guy who admit to being a kinslayer, albeit with the excuse of "the queen made me do it" is unlikely to be believed, considering it would have been very easy to refuse an order like that. If he had any honour and integrity, that is.

[proserpina65]

On 9/26/2022 at 9:48 AM, magdalene said:

I can only speak for myself and am not presuming what "most women" would want but no man would have me butchered like a pig to get what they want if I can help it.  Like Viserys did to the woman he supposedly loved.

And yet many women would choose the chance of the child surviving over it dying with them.  Because Aemma was going to die no matter what.  Admittedly now it would be done with painkillers but the principle is the same.  Both die or the child maybe survives.

On 9/26/2022 at 10:12 AM, Scarlett45 said:

Yup. I think though if his family was evil to him we would've been shown that, it would've made him more "justified"- there is a reason why he's written as being on the sidelines rather than being actively mistreated. 

Other than a scene in the episode where they were celebrating Aegon's second birthday, where he made some withering comment about always being relegated to staying with the ladies, we've seen very little interaction between Larys and his family at all.

On 9/26/2022 at 11:34 AM, NeenerNeener said:

One thing I've wondered about....are Targaryen children fireproof in the womb? Did anyone bother to check to see if the baby survived being roasted?

We've seen no evidence of anyone other than Dany ever being fireproof.

On 9/26/2022 at 10:45 AM, Lassus said:

t's somewhat hard to make sense of overall, but I did initially think it was Daemon making the choice his brother DIDN'T make, having his wife live, over the baby. 

Except that wasn't either brother's choice.  It was let both of them die or possibly save the child.  Neither woman was going to survive.

On 9/26/2022 at 11:10 AM, NeenerNeener said:

I finally figured out where I'd seen the actor who plays Harwin before (binged Packed to the Rafters a year ago) and then they had to go and kill him off. Damn.

OMG, I didn't recognize Ryan Corr until I just looked on IMDB.  Damn!

Also just discovered that Milly Alcock was in The Gloaming, which I enjoyed very much.  Apparently her face wasn't as off-putting in a supporting role.

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Question: is that supposed to be the same Vhagar that used to belong to Aegon the Conquerer's sister? It was said to have gone missing in an earlier episode. 

Yes.  Apparently she returned at some point in the last 10 years and bonded with Laena.

[absnow54]

51 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

For example, the second oldest boy is theoretically behind Corlys and Laenor when it comes to being the head of House Velaryon through Laenor being his 'father'. 

In that case, they'd probably rectify the lineage, by marrying him off to one of Leana/Daemon's daughters. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, Bombadil said:

So, Ser Criston Cole beats Ser Joffrey Lonmouth to death at Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding feast and fucks all the wedding celebration and preparations for the King, the Princess and heir, and just *everybody* else, namingly ALL the noble houses of Westeros. And after THAT...   nothing happens to him? really?? he keeps being Kings Guard as if nothing happened? he doesn't have to answer for his crime and the outrageous disrespect to the King, the Princess, her betrothed and ALL the noble houses present? he doesn't even have to say any motive? to at least justify WHY he killed that guest Ser to death?

But to top it up, Ser Harwin Strong, being Commander of the City Watch, gets kicked out just for punching him in a sparring session? what kind of "Kings Guard" is this son of a steward, that being on duty can kill a guest Ser at a Royal wedding feast and fucks everything so bad it forces the King to make a shotgun wedding? and not only he doesn't get arrested for his crime or even kicked of his post, but a Commander of the City Watch from a noble house loses his title for touching his pretty face?

What kind of stupid plot armor level 1000+ is this?

Then you get a non-group of 10 nobodys, stupidly label them with your sigil for no reason, and they are able to infiltrate Harrenhal and make a fire that kills the 2 more important and more protected people? where were the dozens of soldiers and servants that are always on watch on a castle like that?  What could they possible were doing instead of watching their Lords? were they too busy building a plot armor for Ser Criston?

As a member of the Kingsguard, Cris is likely considered part of the thin white line protecting the realm. It is absolutely believable to me that with the Queen's personal forgiveness/patronage, he would have survived any legal consequences for killing Joffrey.

Kingsguard>City Watch.

Also, as the show made plain, the fight was essentially a confession that one of the nastiest rumors about Harwin and Rae conceivable was true. Harwin didn't just lose his title for beating up Cris. He lost it because the powers that be wanted to do the best they could under the circumstances to kill the rumor and avoid it heating up again, as it almost certainly would if Harwin remained in King's Landing. 

I can imagine that there would be no reason for soldiers or staff to be on watch during the middle of the night at peacetime. 

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Also, no one with three kids as creepy and weird as Alicent's has any business calling someone else's kids savages, lol.

I don't see how showing an interest in bugs makes Helaena creepy and weird or how being teased and wanting to ride a dragon makes Aemond creepy and weird.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Constantinople

[Dac22]

33 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Would it really? He has a much better motive than she does (assuming he has no other brothers and is going to inherit his father's lands). Not to mention the king has shown a remarkable ability to ignore stuff that doesn't fit into his idea of how things should be, so he probably won't be all that inclined to believe his wife ordered an assassination even if the evidence were overwhelming. Kinslaying is very serious crime in Westeros, a guy who admit to being a kinslayer, albeit with the excuse of "the queen made me do it" is unlikely to be believed, considering it would have been very easy to refuse an order like that. If he had any honour and integrity, that is.

We also have to consider show logic is in play.

But Alicent knows how smart and connected Larys is. She also now knows the depths of which he will go for whatever he's trying to accomplish.

Larys won't admit he did it, but he could easily find a way to manufacture things to where it appears she did. It's probably not a fight she wants to take a chance on given how dangerous the opponent is.   

24 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

In that case, they'd probably rectify the lineage, by marrying him off to one of Leana/Daemon's daughters. 

That would be irrelevant as Luke would still be taking the place of the rightful heir and would be considered treason by the laws of the realm. 

Based on tradition, the inheritance line after Corlys would be Laenor, Luke, Joffrey, Corly's brother, and then Laena's daughters unless stated otherwise. 

It's possible Corlys and his family would be cool with it, but other lords would also have issues because they'd be afraid they would be usurped in similar ways in the future. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Dac22

[proserpina65]

7 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Rhaenyra suggested alliance through marriage so clearly has no intention of murder.

I didn't take that suggestion as meaning Rhaenyra wouldn't destroy Alicent's sons as potential rivals once Viserys dies.

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't see how showing an interest in bugs makes Helaena creepy and weird or how being teased and wanting to ride a dragon makes Aemond creepy and weird.

Helaena seemed a bit fey to me, but Aemond seemed normal enough.  Well, normal for a Targaryen, anyway.

1 hour ago, aghst said:

She could turn Larys in.  I'm sure Viserys would be interested to learn who murdered his Hand.

She could tell Larys never to talk to her or come near her again.

Guessing she won't do any of that.

If she turns him in, do you really think he won't claim she told him to do it?

[Oscirus]

Corlys doesnt strike me as someone who would be cool with having his lifework inherited by people who arent his heirs. 

[aghst]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

If she turns him in, do you really think he won't claim she told him to do it?

Is Westeros more classist or sexist?

Can a man speak against the Queen and get away with it?

[Jack Shaftoe]

3 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Larys won't admit he did it, but he could easily find a way to manufacture things to where it appears she did.

How exactly is he going to do that? And why should Alicent think he has such implausible capabilities? Unless she watched GoT and decided that Larys is Littlefinger 2.0, of course.

Yeah, show logic suggests that this might happen but my whole point is that show "logic" is often anything but logical. Show logic also told us a ragtag army of pirates can hold on for years against dragons, after all.

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, aghst said:

Is Westeros more classist or sexist?

Can a man speak against the Queen and get away with it?

I think Westeros is the kind of place where it only matters which people hear it and how it benefits them.  So those who would support Alicent would not believe it and those who support Rhaenyra would.  So I fully believe Larys could speak against the Queen and get away with it IF it was to someone's advantage.

Edited to add that House Strong is of a similar stature to House Hightower, so Larys isn't at a complete disadvantage, class-wise.  Although obviously Alicent being Queen would help her.

Edited September 27, 2022 by proserpina65

[Cristofle]

37 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't see how showing an interest in bugs makes Helaena creepy and weird or how being teased and wanting to ride a dragon makes Aemond creepy and weird.

If Helaena only had an interest in bugs but otherwise seemed like a well adjusted child, that wouldn't be weird. However, she could not seem to have a normal conversation and she didn't appear to want to make much eye contact with anyone or be touched (I mean, maybe she just doesn't like her mother, lol, but it's the only person we've seen try to touch her). For me, Aemond was just more of a vibe, but Helaena was definitely overtly very weird. To some extent, Aegon was almost the least disturbing of the three for me despite his gross moment in the window - plenty of kids don't like their siblings and he otherwise seemed to get along with Rhaenyra's boys. 

[Dac22]

22 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Unless she watched GoT and decided that Larys is Littlefinger 2.0, of course.

Larys has seemingly been part of her inner circle since he told her about the moon tea. She knows he has his finger on the pulse of everything and has sources/people loyal to him.

She just thought she had his loyalty and expected him to act with 'honor/decency' like she told Criston. She didn't expect Larys was this much of a player and/or would go this far.

Given how easy Larys was able to enter the cells without concern, he could simply have some of his loyal guards claim they saw the Queen sneak down there, and with the prisoners actually missing, all she would have to defend herself is her word. 

The only person in King's Landing that is completely on her side is Criston after she saved him. In such a situation, she wouldn't get much support from anyone. The allegations would be almost as bad as actually committing the crime for her.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Dac22

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't buy that Alicent is objecting to Rhaenyra or her sons due to religion or morals.  Not once has she brought that up as a reason she's against them.  It's all been about getting her son on the throne.  And she's grabbing anything she can to do so.  So she's bringing up bastard issues to aid in her cause which is making her son king.  If she didn't hate Rhaenyra, nor if she didn't want the power of her son being king, she wouldn't be on such a rampage, imo.  

Regarding her reaction to what Larys did.  Really?  What did she think he'd do? talk to them nicely?  Get real.  Yes, she acted shocked and appalled but that just makes her look incredibly stupid,  Not naïve - just plain stupid. 

So in the end, she'd rather ally herself with someone that sets criminals free and kills his own family, than someone that is sexually inappropriate/unladylike.  Crazy morals there - being a "slut" is worse than murderer - a kinslyaer on top of it.  Yeah, this is all about morals and religion and not just power.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Avabelle said:

I just don’t get her stress over it all. Rhaenyra suggested alliance through marriage so clearly has no intention of murder. She is the heir to the throne so aside from Alicent just wanting the throne for her son out of bitterness and greed I don’t get her motives at all.

That Rhaenyra suggested marriage would make most non-Targaryens a little grossed out. And the suggestion of it (which, with no book knowledge and no particular thing to point to in the show, I think was instigated by Viserys) doesn't mean that Rhae wouldn't turn to murder at some future point. It just means she isn't there yet. Ptobably.

Things might be very different when Viserys actually dies and some number of lords can publicly reject the idea of having a woman sit on the Iron Throne for real when there's a perfectly good person who has proven to all the Red Keep that he does in fact have a penis and he's not afraid to use it.

It seems inevitable that to secure her reign, Rhae is going to have to deal with Aegon and Aemond having a better claim than she does in the minds of many. There's perhaps more than one way to deal with that -- marrying Aemon and her daughter was one way that didn't work. The male kids could go to the Wall. But really the only way to 100 percent deal with it is to kill the male potential heirs.

[Roseanna]

29 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

If she turns him in, do you really think he won't claim she told him to do it?

I agree. If she isn't totally stupid, she just can't turn him.

She can either keep him as her ace of new evil acts, or she can silence him by murdering him (arranging an "accident").