S01.E04: The Great Wave

[paulvdb]

Episode Synopsis:

Queen Regent Míriel’s faith is tested; Isildur finds himself at a crossroads; Elrond uncovers a secret; Arondir is given an ultimatum; Theo disobeys Bronwyn.

Reminder: 

This is for discussion of the TV show only, no book talk allowed - including saying "but it's different in the books". Any spoiler from outside the books and stories (including previews or the movies) should be in spoiler tags.

[Harvey]

Oh my, the rock singing...

I have to say, the Dwarves/Elrond storyline is the best part of this show. So far the only thing in the show that I'm confident Tolkien himself would hold on the same level as his own work.

[PeterPirate]

This was the first episode that engaged me enough to watch all the way through without pausing.  I figured the first three episodes were just setting things up anyway.  

The ship captain got a closeup and I recognized Antonio Te Maioha.  Barca!  More Spartacusans, please. 

"Elf workers taking your trades".  Mm-kay.  

Miriel is going to invade Middle Earth, take down an evil dictator, and deliver freedom to the people.  Because the gods told her to.  What could possibly go wrong?

Edited September 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Constantinople]

Lucky for Theo the Orcs never watched Stalag 17.

Something about Elrond's smiles just bug me. It's some combination of the hairstyle, the pointy ears and the smile itself.

Celebrimbor's purple robe looks ridiculous. It is seriously fugly.

I'm finding it hard to take the dwarves seriously, but at least the rock singing was infinitely superior to watching an elf and a dwarf smash rocks.

I did not miss the hobbits.

[WritinMan]

There is really some questionable acting in this show. The actor that plays Durin does a great job, though.

The immigration imagery with people protesting the elves was...let's say an interesting choice.

I was once again expecting something much more interesting with trying to save the four dwarves. Instead of taking advantage of a chance to show some tension and suspense we got Disa singing to the rocks. And then they were OK!  Yay!

The kid escaping the orcs was like something from a sitcom. Orcs aren't the sharpest tacks in the wall, but come on. I also like how the orcs chasing the elf and the kid forgot they had bows and arrows when they got to the edge of the woods.

I also did not miss the Harfoots.

Still don't know most of the characters' names in the show beyond the obvious ones (Elrond, Galadriel, etc.).

Edited September 16, 2022 by WritinMan

[mrspidey]

Benjen Stark lives! And his looks have barely changed, sans for the pointy ears!

Durin is the best. Period.

[thuganomics85]

So, that was Joseph Mawle as Adar!  Not sure what is exactly going on with him, but he doesn't look so good right now.  At least he let Arondir go... so that he can deliver a message to the humans that if they swear their loyalty to them, they are all going to get messed up!

Figured Galadriel and the Queen Regent were going to come around at the end, but I still laughed at the beginning when they were yelling at one another, Galadriel was basically "What are you going to do about it, stupid human?!", and then it just cuts to her being tossed in a cell.  Sometimes it pays being the Queen Regent!

The Elrond/Durin scenes really are my favorites right now.  Despite the few episodes so far, the actors have actually been able to convey these character's history and friendship really well on screen, surprisingly.

Mithril ore has been discovered!

No surprise that mysterious sword is connected to Sauron and will likely effect Theo going forward.

Better than last week, at least.  Didn't miss the Harfoots at all.

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, WritinMan said:

I also like how the orcs chasing the elf and the kid forgot they had bows and arrows when they got to the edge of the woods.

I was thinking the same thing, but during my rewatch I noticed the whistling of arrows fired by the Imperial Stormtroopers Orcs as they ran away.  

[WritinMan]

2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I was thinking the same thing, but during my rewatch I noticed the whistling of arrows fired by the Imperial Stormtroopers Orcs as they ran away.  

OK. Good to know. I have no intention of rewatching this.

[Haleth]

20 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I was thinking the same thing, but during my rewatch I noticed the whistling of arrows fired by the Imperial Stormtroopers Orcs as they ran away.  

Serpentine, folks!  Serpentine!

[tennisgurl]

9 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

The ship captain got a closeup and I recognized Antonio Te Maioha.  Barca!  More Spartacusans, please. 

I was so excited! More Spartacus alumnus please! What a great, underrated show. If it had aired on HBO or Netflix just a few years later, it would be seen as an all time classic. 

This show has been all over the place, last week we had its worst episode and this week we had its best. A lot of the problems I have had are still the same, wonky dialogue and WAY too many storylines that aren't given enough time to breath, but things seem to be progressing faster and I am starting to like the characters more. I am glad that the show is aware of the fact that Galadriel isn't very likable and her bull in a china shop antics are causing more problems than solving them. I am still not a fan but they are at least clearly setting up an arc for her, we are I think supposed to be put off by her so that she can grow later. 

The anti elf protest was...yeah we get it, show. We all get it, you don't have to beat up half to death with anvils. 

I would normally say that Miriel going off to join Galadriel to save Middle Earth and end her nations isolationism based on a tree is a bit ridiculous, but that's just how things roll in LOTR. Or maybe that sign from the gods was just the last straw, she and Galadriel seemed to be actually hitting it off before she sent her on her way. 

Is everyone in Middle Earth a secret royal? 

Elrond and Durin continue to be a highlight, their banter is much needed lightness in all of the high drama and the actors really do sell their years of friendship. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Camera One]

Now that they have introduced the major settings and characters (which they didn't do particularly well), I am hoping this show will start to improve.  I would like to enjoy being immersed in Middle Earth, and there were a few moments in this episode where I was almost there, but every few minutes, there would be glaring reminders of the major problems with the writing, planning and pacing.  I wish they hired more experienced showrunners/writers for this show.  

If you took the endpoint for each storyline (like Miriel and Elendil's call to arms and Numenorians answering the call at the end), they didn't write a believable progression that explained the outcome (eg. why so many volunteered to go fight).  I couldn't believe the same mob cheering on the anti-elf tirade at the beginning of the episode would respond positively to Miriel and Elendil's speeches.  This must have meant there were lots of secret elf sympathesizers in town, but there were no hints of that.  I think we needed more time in Numenor before we got to this outcome, and without that, it wasn't satisfying or believable.  

Likewise, the alliance between Galadriel and Miriel wasn't fun or satisfying to watch when it should have been.  Galadriel continued to act like a blundering hothead (no one wrote the showrunners a note that Galadriel was blatantly unlikeable after 3 episodes?).  Miriel was a bit better, and I liked the scene where she showed the palantir, but she also started by accusing Galadriel of stealing ancient documents (but not addressing how she got access to them while Elendil stood there) and then did a 180 after Galadriel barged into her father's bedroom.   Seeing more from Miriel's POV was necessary to make her ultimate decision significant.  

I liked Elrond in episode 2.  However, this episode's plotline culminating in Durin entrusting him with the secret of mithril and a strengthening of their friendship was also poorly designed.  For the first half of the episode, Elrond was being a horrible friend spying on him, questioning his wife behind his back and eavesdropping to his personal conversations for no good reason.  It made no sense that after all that, Durin would then give Elrond a piece of mithril.  As much as I liked the banter between Elrond and Durin at the end, it wasn't earned.

This subplot also seemed to occur a different timeline than the others.  How could the dwarves already have progressed so far with Celebrimbor's tower when Arondir and Galadriel had only experienced a few days?  

The poor planning/pacing was seen especially with the Isildur subplot.  For the second episode in a row, he got a certain chunk of screen-time, but hardly enough to make him a secondary character.  He's like some weird tertiary character (his sister too).  After he got his friends kicked out of the navy, he disappeared from the episode for awhile.  We never saw him talk to Elendil about what happened.  We never saw him interact with his friends, again, yet they were the first to take up Elendil's call.  

Adar letting Arondir go to "deliver a message" just felt convenient, like he got to live because he was a main character.  Why not just send one of the men the orcs captured from one of the villages?  The problems faced by the South landers were simpler to write (lack of food and teenage brat went to look for more), so this part of the episode worked better than the others. 

I too saw a few arrows flying towards Arondir, Brownyn and Theo when they were in the field of sunlight at the end, but it was a little laughable how they stood around posing so we could see the orcs stop at the edges of the clearing.  Later, they seemed to be careless with their shots since they had Arondir and Bronwyn stand closely intimate with one another in plain view of many people below them.  The guy talking to Theo about the sword at the end seemed to be one of the more moderate men defusing conflict between Arondir and the hotheads in Episode 1, so I was surprised he was a Sauron devotee.  

Overall, I thought this episode was better than the last one, so I hope that trend continues but at the same time, there are the same basic systemic issues every week and that's not reassuring after 4 hours.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Camera One

[QuantumMechanic]

I wonder if Adar is supposed to be the quasi-Jango Fett of the Orcs.

[QuantumMechanic]

Will Pharazon stay home and (undoubtedly) work to supplant Miriel or will he be going along for the fight?

Like several others I didn’t miss the Harfoots AT ALL and the episode was better for it.

I think the scenes with Elrond, Durin, and Disa are far and away the best in the series so far.

[peridot]

It was really crappy that Elrond visited Durin on the behalf of an acquaintance's vague feelings.  I was glad when Disa got in Elrond's face and rebutted all of his observations.  I don't get why it was an elf's business what a dwarf gets up to.  The entitlement was something else.  So was Galadriel's entitlement to break into the king's room. 

Theo is annoying as hell.  It's one thing if he decided to go back to the village on his own, but another to browbeat his friend into joining him on the dangerous trip.  I'm glad his friend left his ass there.

The former friends of Isildur told him some hard truths.  It's awful that they were kicked out of the program, too.

[Constantinople]

Why is Míriel afraid Númenor will be destroyed by a giant tsunami if "the sea is always right"?

Can't have it both ways Míriel.

[johntfs]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

If you took the endpoint for each storyline (like Miriel and Elendil's call to arms and Numenorians answering the call at the end), they didn't write a believable progression that explained the outcome (eg. why so many volunteered to go fight).  I couldn't believe the same mob cheering on the anti-elf tirade at the beginning of the episode would respond positively to Miriel and Elendil's speeches.  This must have meant there were lots of secret elf sympathesizers in town, but there were no hints of that.  I think we needed more time in Numenor before we got to this outcome, and without that, it wasn't satisfying or believable.  

Likewise, the alliance between Galadriel and Miriel wasn't fun or satisfying to watch when it should have been.  Galadriel continued to act like a blundering hothead (no one wrote the showrunners a note that Galadriel was blatantly unlikeable after 3 episodes?).  Miriel was a bit better, and I liked the scene where she showed the palantir, but she also started by accusing Galadriel of stealing ancient documents (but not addressing how she got access to them while Elendil stood there) and then did a 180 after Galadriel barged into her father's bedroom.   Seeing more from Miriel's POV was necessary to make her ultimate decision significant.  

Galadrial is supposed to be something of a blundering hothead.  Having her start out wise and calm like she was in the LotR movie, as though she floated above all the conflict on a cloud of her own farts would have been boring.  She's a character.  She's getting a character arc.

Everyone saw the those falling blossoms and had a sphincter clutch moment.  Plus, they're all going to Middle Earth to fix something the lazy-ass elves couldn't be bothered to fix.  And to so through badass force of arms.

[PeterPirate]

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I was so excited! More Spartacus alumnus please! What a great, underrated show. If it had aired on HBO or Netflix just a few years later, it would be seen as an all time classic.  

Such an awesome show.  I was sad to see Simon Merrells die so quickly in this show.  But on the other hand it was about time Marcus Crassus went down.           

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Why is Míriel afraid Númenor will be destroyed by a giant tsunami if "the sea is always right"?  

My Girl Galadriel is going to grab that tsunami and throw it into a jail cell.  Slava Númenor!  

[Dobian]

I don't have a lot to say about this show yet.  Amazon doesn't have the rights to the books that are actually about the period this show is covering.  Uhhh...don't have another hundred million or so to shell out, Jeff?  Galadriel really is as terrible as they say.  The plot is all over the place and it's hard to make a connection with most of the characters.  And Elrond looks like Doogie Howser.  But I do agree that the dwarf parts are really good, and I love Durin.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Dobian

[PurpleTentacle]

This is still extremely tedious and unintersting. Not sure how much more I can take.

[quarks]

I'm still loving the sets and the backgrounds.

Theo, not so much, to the point where I may let out a quick cheer if that sword eats him.

[Dobian]

One big problem is that the writers don't know how to build an emotional connection before defining moments.  So we have Galadriel being all bitch face the whole time she is in Numenor and then asking the queen to aid her in battle in the Southlands, and the queen says no until a big tree starts shedding leaves and she sees the light and gives some generic boilerplate speech about doing the right thing or whatever, and all these dudes we never saw before start raising their hands to enlist in the war and we're all supposed to be moved by this powerful moment.  Nope, it wasn't an earned moment.  The only reason we're supposed to care is because Galadriel and Miriel are having visions that capital is going to be drowned in a tsunami.  Which looked really cool btw.

[PurpleTentacle]

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

One big problem is that the writers don't know how to build an emotional connection before defining moments. 

Another is that they don't know how to build interesting stories or characters.

[silverstream]

I for one am quite enjoying the show so far - sure, a lot of it seems to be build up, but you need to do a lot of build up if you've got a five season plan. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where some of these storylines will go, and the characters are growing on me.

[jane1978]

Can anyone explain how this most expensive show ever can have so cheap looking sets? Yeah, the CGI extensions and sceneries looks great, but then we are seeing the Númenor for real and it´s some small place with bunch of bored and terribly directed extras. Feels more like Xena or StarGate SG1 with it´s uncount number of village planets of 20 people. 

The same with Orcs. The scene where they are looking for the boy had zero tension. It looked like a computer game with bunch of NPC´s saying random generated lines when they are not yet alarmed of the player presence.

Galadriel continues to be insufferable.

So the dwarves are building the big furnace literally across Celebrimbor´s window? And the dwarve workers apparently just relocated there? Yet, he somewhat knows Durin has a secret even if he´s staying home in the mines thousands miles away? Does anything of that makes even an ounce of sense? 

And then we continue with the soap opera "everything is just sets anyway" cuts so Elrond just immediately transforms back to Disa and we can have another needlesly long and drawn out scenes from Durin´s home to finally reveal he is secretly mining Mithril, which honestly, who cares?

Of course nobody from the production design bothers to change anything between these and the scenes from episode 2, clothing included, so it´s very obvious all these scenes were filmed during the same session.

Really, I think that´s the common theme of the show so far. Nobody from both from and behind the camera just seems to care and does just the expected minimum. Extras looks bored, there is no mood in the lighting, actors in background seems lost, plot progress makes very little sense and there are huge gaps in continuity in almost every cut.

Compare this with HOD which plotwise is just a simple soap opera in a fantasy settings, yet everything just feels so much more tense and real. 

[PeterPirate]

On 9/17/2022 at 3:39 PM, Dobian said:

One big problem is that the writers don't know how to build an emotional connection before defining moments.  So we have Galadriel being all bitch face the whole time she is in Numenor and then asking the queen to aid her in battle in the Southlands, and the queen says no until a big tree starts shedding leaves and she sees the light and gives some generic boilerplate speech about doing the right thing or whatever, and all these dudes we never saw before start raising their hands to enlist in the war and we're all supposed to be moved by this powerful moment.  Nope, it wasn't an earned moment.  The only reason we're supposed to care is because Galadriel and Miriel are having visions that capital is going to be drowned in a tsunami.  Which looked really cool btw.

This show has two massive inconsistencies.  The first is the Numenoreans being willing to heed the sign from gods, after it has been established the Numenoreans turned their backs on the gods and put Miriel in power for that reason.  

The second is Galadriel needed to discover in the Hall of Lore that the Southlands were in danger, when it was already established the ancestors of the people there had served Morgoth, and still needed to be watched by the Legion of Marcus Crassus lest they turn back to evil.  Add to that Galadriel's desire to have Halbrand re-unite the tribes of the Southlands so they can do the same thing all over again.  

Galadriel:  You are in danger.
Southlanders:  We are the danger.  

Oy, this show.  It reminds me of a line by Kurt Vonnegut:  American amateurism in matters of life and death.

Edited September 19, 2022 by PeterPirate

[QuantumMechanic]

Well, it's a different danger.  Galadriel discovered that Sauron (a) still exists, and (b) has a plan to establish Mordor.  That's a different thing to worry about than "Southlanders might go back to evil".  Also, Sauron is Galadriel's idée fixe so she's grasping for any potential tool to deal with that.

[PeterPirate]

40 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Well, it's a different danger.  Galadriel discovered that Sauron (a) still exists, and (b) has a plan to establish Mordor.  That's a different thing to worry about than "Southlanders might go back to evil".  Also, Sauron is Galadriel's idée fixe so she's grasping for any potential tool to deal with that.

I suppose.  Here is where the time compression plays havoc with the logic.  In the opening to episode 1 Galadriel talks about following Sauron's trail for centuries.  But upon finding a new clue she feels the need to convince the Numenoreans to launch an invasion right then and there, instead of taking the evidence back to Elrond and Gil-Galad.   

Then there's the fact that Marcus Crassus and his soldiers will not return to Lindon.  Can that take place without being noticed?  

For that matter, why is Arondir making goo-goo eyes with Bronwyn?  Shouldn't be be hightailing it back to Lindon to raise the alarm?   

I am not like the Nattering Nabobs of YouTube, who make videos tearing apart every detail of the show.  Just that from time to time a discrepancy will pop up in my mind.  And once I'm on a train of thought it is hard to get it off the tracks.  Make it stop, show.  

[Colorado David]

ok that palantiri scene with Galadriel actually gave me goosebumps. been a loooooooooooooooong time since anything gave me goosebumps. well done.

[shrewd.buddha]

This episode seemed to have more forward momentum  - - things seem to be headed somewhere. 

It felt very contrived that Adar would release Arondir of all the Orc's prisoners.  Adar is giving him exactly what he wanted: the opportunity to rally an army of elves.  It's not likely a defiant elf would encourage the humans to surrender.  
On the other side, it could be reasoned that Arondir was too much trouble to keep.   

Did Halbrand make an appearance in this episode?  I'm not terribly excited about the prospect of a 'secret' king waiting to be discovered.
It feels like such a cliché in the Sword and Sorcery fantasy genre. 
People seem to love being ruled by other people who's main qualification is being born in the correct order (and usually, the correct sex)  of some other ruler.  It must be a British/European thing...

Elendil's (the ship guy) son, Isildur (?) seem to take the cowardly way out of his naval training career.  But there was no scene of his father finding out about that before Isildur was the first to volunteer for his father's quest to .. do something..?  (contact the elves?  sail to the SouthLands?)

The Queen's speech to the Numenorians fell a bit flat. She reversed course about Galadriel  so quickly that she sort of stole her own thunder.
Basically, there were just too many people giving too many conflicting speeches in Numenor for one episode.  (The rant about immigrant elves stealing jobs was especially weird.) 

Edited September 19, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[Camera One]

Summing up Season 1 could be interesting:

Galadriel: You have not seen what I have seen.

Elrond: I have seen my share.

Galadriel: You have not seen what I have seen.

Miriel: Well, you have not seen what I have seen.

Galadriel: Fine, now I have seen what you have seen.

Arondir: But you have not seen what I have seen.

Galadriel/Miriel: But you have not seen what we have seen.

Arondir: But what I have seen happens before what you have seen so maybe we can stop what you saw if we do something about what I have seen even though *someone* should have seen what we all have seen earlier.

Gil-galad: Oops.

Harfoots: You are the weakest link and have been de-caravan-ed.  Goodbye.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Camera One

[quarks]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Did Halbrand make an appearance in this episode?  I'm not terribly excited about the prospect of a 'secret' king waiting to be discovered.
It feels like such a cliché in the Sword and Sorcery fantasy genre. 

He did. He spent pretty much the entire episode in the dungeons, and convinced Galadriel to try to be a bit - a bit - more tactful, and convinced Pharazon not to try to stop her.

[Ottis]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:17 AM, Constantinople said:

I did not miss the hobbits.

LOL, this was one of the highlights of the episode.

I'll give credit here to this show vs. another, similar show currently airing. This one has a reason to watch along with a sense of urgency for the characters. And I am fascinated by Adar and what he/it is. Doesn't seem to be the usual evil bad guy. 

[RobertDeSneero]

18 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

This show has two massive inconsistencies.  The first is the Numenoreans being willing to heed the sign from gods, after it has been established the Numenoreans turned their backs on the gods and put Miriel in power for that reason.  

The second is Galadriel needed to discover in the Hall of Lore that the Southlands were in danger, when it was already established the ancestors of the people there had served Morgoth, and still needed to be watched by the Legion of Marcus Crassus lest they turn back to evil.  Add to that Galadriel's desire to have Halbrand re-unite the tribes of the Southlands so they can do the same thing all over again.  

Numenor did not turn their backs on the Valar, but rather had turned away from friendship with the elves.  The vision of the palantir was a hidden sign that the island was on the wrong path.  The tears of the gods were a more visible sign.

What Galadriel discovered was two-fold: that the mark of Sauron that the orcs were following was a map that pointed them to the Southlands and that the plan of the ancient enemy Morgoth in the event of his defeat was for Sauron to create a realm of evil there.

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Numenor did not turn their backs on the Valar, but rather had turned away from friendship with the elves.  The vision of the palantir was a hidden sign that the island was on the wrong path.  The tears of the gods were a more visible sign.

I wonder how much of a difference that is.  Miriel says "The Faithful believe that when the petals of the White Tree fall, it is no idle thing, but the very tears of the Valar themselves".  The implication being that non-Faithful Numenoreans do not hold such beliefs.  Even Elendil, when asked if he is one of the Faithful, says "In my experience it is unwise to live one's life guessing after signs and portents".  

Someone upthread mentioned "secret Elf sympathizers", so maybe there were a whole bunch who were waiting for a sign from the gods to reveal themselves.  Or maybe the non-Faithful have a leader who has instructed them to go along with the invasion.  Who knows.  In any case I don't think it's possible to detach faithfulness to the Valar from friendliness towards the Elves.  

4 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

What Galadriel discovered was two-fold: that the mark of Sauron that the orcs were following was a map that pointed them to the Southlands and that the plan of the ancient enemy Morgoth in the event of his defeat was for Sauron to create a realm of evil there.

I just don't think it would be a big surprise that Sauron would return to a location that had been loyal to his boss.  Galadriel's statement "The Southlands are in danger" contradicts the fact that the area has been guarded for centuries by Elves because either 1) The Southlanders themselves are dangerous, or 2) Sauron or some other danger might appear there.  Also, after a thousand years there would be no way of knowing when Sauron would re-emerge, but an invasion had to be launched based on an old map.  

Speaking of that map, it was supposedly created by a human spy, but it is written in the "Black speech" which Elendil (and presumably all Numenoreans) could not read.  So instead of using a code or hidden runes, the spy openly used the one language that the enemy could read but his compatriots could not.  

I'm sorry, but this is just so--painful.

Edited September 20, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Rickster]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

I'll give credit here to this show vs. another, similar show currently airing. This one has a reason to watch along with a sense of urgency for the characters. 

See, this is what I find so frustrating about this production. The HBO show is a glorified soap opera. This one has a far far superior plot (potentially) but it is really undercut by a plodding script and direction (the actors can only work with what they've been given).

I wonder if there was an intent to make this more of an all family show and marketable in non English speaking countries which drove a more simplistic style to the writing.

[Camera One]

28 minutes ago, Rickster said:

I wonder if there was an intent to make this more of an all family show and marketable in non English speaking countries which drove a more simplistic style to the writing.

To me, the problems are more with the writing and planning and what is needed to fix the show would still keep the story family-friendly and just as easy to understand.  I chalk that up to the inexperienced showrunners who are writing and plotting out the story. 

That is why I really hope that they are willing to have a hard look at what didn't work (or someone tells them straight-up what the major issues are).  I agree that this show does have a lot of potential, and it's not too late yet, to turn it around.

[QuantumMechanic]

8 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Numenor did not turn their backs on the Valar, but rather had turned away from friendship with the elves.  The vision of the palantir was a hidden sign that the island was on the wrong path.  The tears of the gods were a more visible sign.

It's hard to tell if they are following the books here or if they are not.  But in the books
 

Spoiler

Numenor absolutely did turn their backs on the Valar.  The fundamental cause of the Numenorean rot was them rejecting the idea that human mortality was a gift from Illuvatar (i.e. God).  Also (and related to that), right from the founding of Numenor the Valar prohibited the Numenoreans from sailing westward out of signt of Numenor. Turning away from friendship with the Elves was merely a symptom of that -- the Numenoreans were jealous of the Elves' immortality. And the Elves of course could sail to Valinor.  On top of that, the Numenoreans eventually became haughty enough to feel they should rule the world and so stopped giving their kings names in Quenya and instead named them in Adunaic.

And this just adds to the stupidity of the "Elves will take your jobs!" thing.  That wasn't the reason why the Elves were no longer welcome (as if any Elf wanted to be a laborer in Numenor in the first place).  It's because the Numenoreans hated the Elves for reminding them that they were mortal, that they were not allowed in the Blessed Realm, and that the Elves were superior to them in many ways.

Edited September 20, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[Ilovepie]

On 9/17/2022 at 6:50 AM, johntfs said:

Galadrial is supposed to be something of a blundering hothead.  Having her start out wise and calm like she was in the LotR movie, as though she floated above all the conflict on a cloud of her own farts would have been boring.  She's a character.  She's getting a character arc.

This elf is over a thousand years old though  - old enough to have learned some diplomacy and not be a blundering hot head! She is old even in elf terms which makes her behavior that much more annoying. I started out finding her ok but each episode makes me like her less. At this point, I don't know if it's the actress or the writing, but either way, it's disappointing that they've turned one of the coolest characters into a petulant, scowling, snarling brat. She's acting like she really is the age she looks.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

This elf is over a thousand years old though  - old enough to have learned some diplomacy and not be a blundering hot head!

Over 3000 years old, in fact.

[PeterPirate]

My Girl Galadriel is on the Mother of All Character Arcs, doncha know. 

[MJ Frog]

On 9/19/2022 at 2:15 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

The rant about immigrant elves stealing jobs was especially weird.

They took err jerbs.

[Bellatrix]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:22 PM, PeterPirate said:

Miriel is going to invade Middle Earth, take down an evil dictator, and deliver freedom to the people.  Because the gods told her to.  What could possibly go wrong?

This could be just Recent Events, or whatever ... But I actually found myself agreeing with Miriel's stand. War shouldn't be something you just plunge your country into without deliberation. Not fighting someone else's war, either.

I know the show (and the books presumably) are all Ra-Ra, WAR!!!! defeat Sauron, power to the elves!!! But people, like, die in war. I found Pre!Convertion!To!The!Elves' Awesomeness!Miriel sensible.

The map of Middle Earth made me really miss The Painted Table from Game of Thrones.

[Raachel2008]

22 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

At this point, I don't know if it's the actress or the writing,

I think it is a mix of both. The writing does her no favors, but if 3,000 years old Galadriel is going to act like this, her impulsivity has to be shown on screen as the fruit of fear, despair etc. That's not on my screen.

[johntfs]

On 9/20/2022 at 3:54 PM, Ilovepie said:

This elf is over a thousand years old though  - old enough to have learned some diplomacy and not be a blundering hot head! She is old even in elf terms which makes her behavior that much more annoying. I started out finding her ok but each episode makes me like her less. At this point, I don't know if it's the actress or the writing, but either way, it's disappointing that they've turned one of the coolest characters into a petulant, scowling, snarling brat. She's acting like she really is the age she looks.

Maybe diplomacy isn't like riding a bike.  For the previous several centuries she's been leading Elven war parties on a hunt for any trace of Sauron so perhaps she's a little out of practice.  That wise patient beautiful elf from Lord of the Rings doesn't exist yet.  Part of this show is how she became that person and the missteps she made along the way.

[PeterPirate]

Being an army commander requires a mature temperament and diplomacy skills.  Even Patton was willing to drink with a Russian general.  

[Ilovepie]

14 hours ago, johntfs said:

Maybe diplomacy isn't like riding a bike.  For the previous several centuries she's been leading Elven war parties on a hunt for any trace of Sauron so perhaps she's a little out of practice.  That wise patient beautiful elf from Lord of the Rings doesn't exist yet.  Part of this show is how she became that person and the missteps she made along the way.

If you can't learn in 3,000 years that it's not a good idea to immediately start insulting your host when captured and outnumbered, you probably shouldn't be the leader. It's not a good look. Again, she should be waaayyy past making these kind of missteps at this age.

[JustHereForFood]

On 9/20/2022 at 3:41 PM, Rickster said:

I wonder if there was an intent to make this more of an all family show and marketable in non English speaking countries which drove a more simplistic style to the writing.

Not sure what you mean. I watch it in a non English speaking country, we frequently watch all sorts of shows and have no problems understanding the story, and LOTR is very popular in every country that I know. Who doesn't speak that well uses subtitles. Hell, Amazon even has various dubs for this show already, for those weirdos who prefer dubbing.

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Not sure what you mean. I watch it in a non English speaking country, we frequently watch all sorts of shows and have no problems understanding the story, and LOTR is very popular in every country that I know. Who doesn't speak that well uses subtitles. Hell, Amazon even has various dubs for this show already, for those weirdos who prefer dubbing.

Word to this. I'm also in a non English speaking country and to imply that us, non English speaking folks, cannot understand Tolkien or the plot or follow complex storylines is trully offensive.

I also want to point @Rickster that us, non English speaking countries, have Nettlix, HBO, Amazon, Disney, Star+, Paramount, etc, with all their good and bad content, and we also have, the, uh,  unorthodox ways to watch whatever we want. Amazon streams The Boys, after all, so I don't know what you mean at all by they wanting to be more family friendly - and I can assure you that The Boys is their most watched original in the world.

  Also, an all family show doesn't need to have a "more simplistic style to the writing". The writing in this show is bad because it is bad.

[Rickster]

Speaking as a first generation American who has spent a lot of time outside the US and worked with many foreign nationals, please don’t confuse my speculation on the motivations of the writers and showrunners with my personal views and knowledge of the subject. I was mostly extrapolating from press stories in recent years about how Hollywood develops certain types of movies to target the mass foreign box office.