S01.E04: King of the Narrow Sea

[Sakura12]

The sea stakes son is half Targ and is a dragon rider, so Rheanyra's kid can still get that from her. 

[Enigma X]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Meghan Markle is one quarter black.

Not that I think it has much to do with how characters will be portrayed, but Meghan is half and her mom has two typical (ancestry speaking) AA parents.

One thing I am noticing is that Viserys makes it seem as if incestuous marriage is not a Targ thing. I think twice in this episode he showed outright disdain for it. I mean I am with him, but it took me aback because I thought it was no big deal to them. Even if Viserys hated the idea, he made it seem like a taboo idea.

I think part of Daemon's plan was to force Rhaenyra to marry him, but it backfired when he forced her to marry Laenor.

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, ursula said:

Something that I don't think the episode explained, but if Daemon's wife has died, why does Viserys object to Daemon and Rhaenyra marrying? Isn't that literally their custom (Viserys is the child and grand-child of two brother-sister marriages, and his wife and great love was his first cousin) to keep their blood pure? 

Daemon’s wife is very much alive. She’s a lady of the Vale. He just doesn’t like her and won’t have sex with her so she’s childless. 
 

Also Daemon has proven himself to be deceiving and unstable- he’s too close to the throne himself to be allowed to marry Rhaenerya- even if he was single. 

[mledawn]

The show is giving me far too much credit for my ability to keep track of who is who in the show - both physically and plot-wise. I appreciate this forum for its assistance.

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

This has been the best episode thus far in my opinion. I will take the politicking and social/family dynamics over the large scale cgi action scenes any day. I loved the detail of the little boy "spy" reporting back to Mysaria as she is commenting on "hard lessons" and moving on from her previous life in the "skin trade"; a bit on-the-nose but clearly foreshadowing a much bigger role for her in the future. I'm excited to see what awaits.

Yes! I loved her as a spy. A good role for her. What was she called by Otto, “white worm”? Will she serve as a spy to the next hand?

 

6 hours ago, nilyank said:

Especially after Daemon removed her cap so that her long silver hair would be seen by all the brothel attendees. She was also caught by the Sir Knight What's his name who recognized her as she was running around where she was not supposed to.

Yes that was on purpose. Daemon was using her for his own purposes, damn if they got caught and her virtue ruined. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Alicent needs a sexy handsome side piece. If Cersei could get away with it, so can she  

I also wonder if there was foreshadowing of that, given the juxtaposition between Ser Cole/Rhaenyra and Alicent/Viserys. I could see Alicent feeling bad for betraying the king, but I could see it happening sooner rather than later. Especially if he takes sick and isn’t around a lot to “watch her”. 

[Affogato]

You know, there is nothing inherently (ah...) wrong with inbreeding. We get big breasts in chickens, disease resistance in wheat, mobile eyebrows to make dogs more relatable, and probably a lot of characteristics in humans as well.  It is generally positive until it isn't, and then you stop and breed out for a few generations.

In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with the act of incest. What makes it awful--and it usually is--is that it happens in families behind closed doors, is usually abusive, and when someone objects to it they lose their primary support system, since the rest of their family pushes them away.  If you are adopted and find out your are married to your half brother, also adopted, who was raised by different parents on the other side of the country--should be okay, really.

As I see it the Targaryens interbred to reinforce the genes that allowed them to bond with the dragons. Dragons are useful creatures, kingmakers.

That bonding with dragons, who are wild, impulsive and cruel animals by nature, doesn't do you any favors in human society. People bonded with dragons often go crazy. Lord, is that common with the Targs. It may be that the ability to be open to dragons predisposes you to it, too.

Guessing this is what is supposed to happen with a certain dragon queen in the future, and what is happening now. Rhae and Daemon are both a lot alike in the way they approach problems. They are attracted to each other. They both want to be on top, and Daemon's impotence happened when Rhaenerys took control.  Both of them are users and use power to get what they want.

This Viserys had an advantage, bonding with an old dragon. When he died, Viserys saw what the bonding did to him and decided not to bond with another dragon. So Viserys is actually sane and even goes out of his way to avoid the dragon characteristics, and tries not to abuse his power, but he still understands the pressures his family is under.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Good for little lordling Blackwood for ripping that bully a new one... literally.

Rhaenyra so horned up by her uncle that she needs some dick, stat. Will any dick do? Not sure. But of course Sir Hunksalot's is prefered anyway.

Queen does believe Rhaenyra that she didn't fuck Daemon. Which is true enough. But telling the king that Rhaenyra is still a virgin. Well that's a wrong conclusion you came to on your own there, Missy.

The king doesn't really seem to believe it, since he had a Maester bring her some abortion tea. Maybe Rhaenyra should tell him the truth, to at least make sure her father blieves that she didn't fuck her uncle. But that could adversely effect Sir Hunksalot's health, so maybe not that good of an idea afterall.

Viserys doesn't have to be sure she has had sex to take the precaution of sending her the tea. He just has to think there is reason to think she may have had sex. It also serves the function of telling her the tea exists, so if she decides to sleep with random men she knows how to avoid the consequences.

And it communicates that he would rather she keep it to herself. He isn't directly showing her the birds and the bees.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Affogato

[jeansheridan]

9 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Daemon's legal wife isn't dead; she's living in the Vale with her family. 

And based on his dislike, I really want to meet her! She's clearly too powerful for him to kill or abuse outright. Or maybe it says something about Daemon that he avoids her rather than kills her. He has internal boundaries. 

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

Not that I think it has much to do with how characters will be portrayed, but Meghan is half and her mom has two typical (ancestry speaking) AA parents.

One thing I am noticing is that Viserys makes it seem as if incestuous marriage is not a Targ thing. I think twice in this episode he showed outright disdain for it. I mean I am with him, but it took me aback because I thought it was no big deal to them. Even if Viserys hated the idea, he made it seem like a taboo idea.

I think part of Daemon's plan was to force Rhaenyra to marry him, but it backfired when he forced her to marry Laenor.

I don't think Viserys is against incest, his first wife was his cousin. I think he's against marrying a 12 year old and a 2 year old. It's more of the age then the relation. He knows Daemon wants the throne that's why he doesn't want him to marry Rheanyra.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, jeansheridan said:

And based on his dislike, I really want to meet her! She's clearly too powerful for him to kill or abuse outright. Or maybe it says something about Daemon that he avoids her rather than kills her. He has internal boundaries. 

We are of the same mind.
 

I don’t think Daemon is the type to kill or abuse just for the heck of it. He has no problem kicking anyone’s ass who comes after him, but he isn’t going to kill his wife because he doesn’t like her and she’s “ugly”. 

Her family is probably very powerful, for her to be married to the brother of the king. I do hope she’s happy in the Vale with her friends and a lover if she wants one (if that lover is male she has moon tea so not to cause a scandal). She’s probably glad he’s gone all the time because she can’t stand him either. 

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Meghan Markle is one quarter black.

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I've never heard that Meghan Markle's mother is biracial, only that she is

Meghan Markle describes herself as half black, half white. I think her mother not being biracial is a safe assumption.

Edited September 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Wasn't the name of Rhyerna's first suitor the same as the character in GOT who kept dying and being brought back? Ser Baric Dondarian?

Yes, Beric Dondarrion. Given how old he was, I wonder if that was meant as a joke from the writers. Beric just won't die.

[jeansheridan]

38 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Her family is probably very powerful, for her to be married to the brother of the king. I do hope she’s happy in the Vale with her friends and a lover if she wants one (if that lover is male she has moon tea so not to cause a scandal). She’s probably glad he’s gone all the time because she can’t stand him either

I actually think it would be interesting if they had a love/hate thing. Like Cersei did with Robert in the VERY early days. She might be scornful of his impotence too which could cause a chicken and egg scenario. He can't perform, she's mean about it, makes it harder for him to keep trying. 

I give Matt Smith credit for showing a lot of emotions in their sex scene. Confidence, smugness, then when she became more assertive,  startled. He tries to take control again but she matches him. It's a well acted scene and yes I think it benefited from a female director.  

I also think it's good we see Alicient's experience too and how unimportant the king is in that scene really. She's not being abused or even disrespected. He even touches her face and she smiles so clearly he was looking at her with a warm expression.  I feel for her a lot which  is more than I felt for other women having sex scenes in GOT. Honestly I think only Grey Worm and Missendra had positive, mutually respectful sex with zero ickiness. Oh and maybe the Dornish couple before Oberon got himself killed. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by jeansheridan

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, jeansheridan said:

I also think it's good we see Alicient's experience too and how unimportant the king is in that scene really. She's not being abused or even disrespected. He even touches her face and she smiles so clearly he was looking at her with a warm expression.  I feel for her a lot which honestly is more than I felt for other women having sex scenes in GOT. Honestly I think only Grey Worm and Missendra had positive, mutually respectful sex with zero ickiness. Oh and maybe the Dornish couple before Oberon got himself killed. 

Yeah- I think Alicent (and the actress portraying her, Emily Carey) are doing a good job with the material.
 

Alicent isn’t emotionally or physically satisfied with her role in life, although she’s achieved the “highest” a woman in her culture can achieve, she’s borne the king a healthy son (and a daughter it looks like). If she conceived another son and said she didn’t want any more children, Viserys would respect her wishes. He speaks to her kindly and is respectful toward her. She cares about him (she didn’t have to wash his wounds as she did, they have servants for that, but it was a nurturing act that demonstrated her feelings towards him) but she isn’t so enthused about having sex with this guy. She doesn’t hate her life but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t want more. 
 

Everything she said to Rhanerya was true (regarding her virtue and being compromised) and although she was pissed at her (rightfully so) maybe was was a little jealous of the freedom she claimed for herself. Not that I think Alicent wants to fuck random guys in a brothel, but she’s a young woman too, she’s got desires like any other. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

9 hours ago, ursula said:

Rhaenys’s children Leana and Leanor Velaryon are Targaryen by blood. 
 

Well it’s not really a theory when Viserys himself is a product of incest, married his first cousin and considered marrying his other cousin’s daughter. His only objection against Leana was her age. And now he’s marrying Rhaenyra to Leanor. It just feels like the writers are trying to remind us the audience that even thought this is a show about an incestous family, incest is still bad folks so don’t try this at home.

Daemon’s having a still living wife would have been a simpler explanation and clarified his marital status, something I don’t think they’ve explained since episode 2.

Daemon's wife is in the Vale. He was told numerous times to go to her in the Vale. 

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Daemon’s wife is very much alive. She’s a lady of the Vale. He just doesn’t like her and won’t have sex with her so she’s childless. 

Thanks. I think what confused me is what @Enigma X pointed out: that Viserys kept bringing up their relationship as if it was a factor. It breaks immersion when you have these medieval fantasy characters keep applying modern day sensibilities.

It's not even the incest. It's stuff like Rhaenyra being offended that she has to choose a husband when the fact that she has a choice in the first place it's a privilege. Alicent shouldn't have to point that out to her. It would be different if Rhaenyra had someone specific she wanted to marry (or not marry) and she was being forced against that, but she's mad that she has to marry at all. Even her father the literal King was being pressured to marry 6 months after his wife died. Or Rhaenyra being upset that she can't sleep around because she's a woman. 

The constant "winking", for lack of a better word, at the audience is exhausting. We're not dumb. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Just rewatched the ep and then the inside the ep, where they confirm Daemon couldn't keep it up because deep down he knew it was wrong. But they also suggest he wasn't expecting it to go that far, that his sex-ed demonstration was also meant to shock and he didn't really expect her to get to so turned on that she'd want sex too. Which is pretty brazen of her, come to think of it, as they were surrounded by witnesses.

That's interesting, and that so many people read that as he couldn't "get it up" or "keep it up" because I read it completely different. I thought he deliberately went in there to get her all horned up then leave her high and dry so she'd want to marry him. Or to purposely send her off to someone else all horned up so she could lose it to them. I didn't see it as him not being able to go through with it, either mentally or physically.

The scene with Viserys firing Otto was so satisfying, and interesting regarding his speculation that maybe Otto killed the previous Hand. But we know Otto isn't finished. He's still father to the queen and determined his grandson will be the heir.

I agree that poor Ser Criston was put in a very difficult situation but if I were Rhaenyra I'd hit that too. Damn, gurrrrrrl, get it!

Actually that sex scene was pretty chaste, by GoT standards. No full nudity with either actor. No boobs, no butts.

Edited September 12, 2022 by iMonrey

[jeansheridan]

One last thought. I loved seeing the King and Daemon hanging out like brothers for their one scene. I can so imagine them poking fun at their older sister and annoying the heck out of her. Like Tyrion and Jaime bugging Cersei. In one scene you suddenly understand why Viserys doesn't just kill him. 

And even though he held a knife to Daemon's neck, there was no real fear in Daemon's eyes. Just calculation. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by jeansheridan

[Stardancer Supreme]

10 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I was delighted to see Otto fucking himself over. Man was in such an almighty rush to screw over a teenage girl that he forgot to use a catspaw like any civilized person.

10 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Speaking of Otto, that man is not going to go gently into that good night. He had a years-long plan in motion, and he had to know this was a possibility. I don't like him, but I love what he does for the story, and I can't wait to see his next move.

I wonder why Otto is politicking so hard for Aegon to be on the Iron Throne? That baby is 3 years old as of episode 4! Does he think that he will be named Regent if he were to "help" Viserys shuffle off the mortal coil? Alicent is the wild card here; Surely she knows that she has a little more cachet being Queen.  We will see if she continues to let her father manipulate her in this situation.

[Scarlett45]

19 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I agree that poor Ser Criston was put in a very difficult situation but if I were Rhaenyra I'd hit that too. Damn, gurrrrrrl, get it!

I haven’t touched in this but yes. 
 

I think the writers were trying to convey in the last episode that there was a clear attraction between Ser Criston Cole and Princess Rhaenrya, I kinda thought they might at least kiss in the forest.

This episode Rhaenrya was turned on by her experience in the brothel (seeing others hooking up and being turned on by Daemon) and she jetted home and had a lot of confidence to act on the attraction to a man she had been thinking about.
 

Yes there’s a power imbalance (Ser Cole could get his head chopped off of even a rumor they had sex, he’s lowborn and a KingGuard member), but from the writing and the acting, I think the viewer was supposed to see that Ser Cole wanted her too, but having more to lose from the exchange (her father/the queen would be mad at her, but they wouldn’t harm her) he was hesitant. However it was consensual. He wasn’t blackmailed or coerced into it. She was teasing him with that helmet grab- she had no intention of trying to force him to do anything. 

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That baby is 3 years old as of episode 4! Does he think that he will be named Regent if he were to "help" Viserys shuffle off the mortal coil?

That's precisely what he wants. If Aegon is crowned at 3, then Otto is effectively the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.

2 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

However it was consensual. He wasn’t blackmailed or coerced into it. 

[Scarlett45]

49 minutes ago, ursula said:

It's not even the incest. It's stuff like Rhaenyra being offended that she has to choose a husband when the fact that she has a choice in the first place it's a privilege. Alicent shouldn't have to point that out to her. It would be different if Rhaenyra had someone specific she wanted to marry (or not marry) and she was being forced against that, but she's mad that she has to marry at all. Even her father the literal King was being pressured to marry 6 months after his wife died. Or Rhaenyra being upset that she can't sleep around because she's a woman. 

I think they have Rhaenrya ham that up for the audience. Of course she has to marry- her father is a fair man so he’s giving her a choice from a pool of eligible men; she claims she wants to be Queen but she’s still a girl (she just came of age so of course she’s going to have immature moments). She would do better to listen to Princess Rhaenys- do you think she married Coryls Velaryon cause she liked the look of him?(he’s nice looking so maybe, and her age, so that’s a plus) It was likely because he was heir to a bunch of political power (the ships), had lots of money(isn’t he  THE  richest guy in Westeros right now), Valayrian blood, and he was young/pleasant looking. If there was even a chance for her to be named queen she needed a husband like that. 
 

Rhaenrya isn’t stupid. She knows all this, she just wants to do what she wants to do. Fine. Do that, but take your moon tea. 

[magdalene]

22 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

One last thought. I loved seeing the King and Daemon hanging out like brothers for their one scene. I can so imagine them poking fun at their older sister and annoying the heck out of her. Like Tyrion and Jaime bugging Cersei. In one scene you suddenly understand why Viserys doesn't just kill him. 

And even though he held a knife to Daemon's neck, there was no real fear in Daemon's eyes. Just calculation. 

Matt Smith said that Daemon fights like he is not afraid of dying. I think that can also explain his non-fear when the king holds a knife to his neck.

[AntFTW]

59 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Everything she said to Rhanerya was true (regarding her virtue and being compromised) and although she was pissed at her (rightfully so) maybe was was a little jealous of the freedom she claimed for herself. Not that I think Alicent wants to fuck random guys in a brothel, but she’s a young woman too, she’s got desires like any other. 

I didn't think that she was jealous of Rhaenyra's sexual freedom specifically, but generally of the fact that Rhaenyra has a choice. Unlike Alicent, Rhaenyra gets to choose someone to marry that she will actually love and wants to fuck (because of Alicent), and Rhaenyra is fucking that up.

Alicent is advocating for giving Rhaenyra more freedom to Viserys, and I'm not sure if Rhaenyra even knows that.

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

She cares about him (she didn’t have to wash his wounds as she did, they have servants for that, but it was a nurturing act that demonstrated her feelings towards him) but she isn’t so enthused about having sex with this guy.

I said the same because Cersei wasn't washing anybody's ass... or wounds LOL

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I didn't think that she was jealous of Rhaenyra's sexual freedom specifically, but generally of the fact that Rhaenyra has a choice. Unlike Alicent, Rhaenyra gets to choose someone to marry that she will actually love and wants to fuck (because of Alicent), and Rhaenyra is fucking that up.

Alicent is advocating for giving Rhaenyra more freedom to Viserys, and I'm not sure if Rhaenyra even knows that.

Yup yup! I agree with you. Alicent doesn’t know Rhaenyra had sex with Ser Cole, but yes she’s jealous that Rhaenyra is being given the option to marry a guy her own age that she might be hot for, and Rhaenrya doesn’t even appreciate it, sneaking around to brothels with her volatile uncle!

And from their little hand holding moment earlier, Rhaenyra seemed to understand that Alicent had been having it rough (lonely as Queen), but because Rhaenyra isn’t the most emotionally aware person, she doesn’t get that it’s not appropriate to be complaining to Alicent about your lot. In Rhaenyra’s mind Alicent has usurped her and “doesn’t get it”, not thinking that Alicent may have wanted something different than the life she has but wasn’t exactly given as many freedoms as the Princess, even though she’s Queen. 

[CountryGirl]

Another strong episode for me. 

Seeing Daemon's return to KL and him embracing his brother made me realize as much as he despises and envies his brother, he also loves him and wants his approval on some level. He really is such a child compared to Viserys. Viserys isn't the strongest ruler but has his moments that show why he deserves to be king (as seen with Daemon, Rhaenyra and Otto).

He also looked quite fetching with the new hair.

I liked seeing the rekindling of the friendship between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Alicent seems to be looking out for her friend, thus her conversation with Rhaenyra, warning her of what she had overheard and knew. Time will tell how this plays out. 

I also felt a bit of sympathy for Alicent, having to lie there and submit to her husband's needs. Even though I think she wanted to be The Queen (TM Margaery Tyrell), she was forced into this marriage by her father and I think she's learned that being queen isn't everything.

The chemistry between Matt and Milly is undeniable, even if their first encounter of a carnal nature came off as icky to me, less because of the incest (they're Targaryens, it's what they do) but because of the brothel surroundings as well as Milly looking like a child in her street urchin attire. 

It struck me, watching this, that she reminded me of someone...and I finally remembered who.

Big Daddy's Julian, as played by Cole/Dylan Sprouse.

But I'm thinking chemistry will win out and my take on Daemon's inability to go through with fucking her is that he wasn't expecting her to be as into it as him and there are some real feelings there. 

I'm not loving that she took advantage of the imbalance of power with Criston, to work out her sexual frustration, even if they make as attractive a couple as Daemon/Rhaenyra. I do agree that there was chemistry and attraction there and I think vows or not, station or not, Criston has been carrying a torch for her and possibly vice versa. One wonders what might have happened if the boar hadn't interrupted their camp-out.

But all, in all, I'm loving seeing Rhaenyra playing the game and winning.

- Escaping the palace for a night on the town with Daemon ✔️

- Turning the tables on Daemon and his plans ✔️

- Fucking Criston Cole and keeping it a secret ✔️

- Lying to everyone about everything and getting away with it (I don't count her having to marry Laenor - she knew that was coming regardless) ✔️

-  Got Otto Hightower fired ✔️

And this line: "Were I born a man, I could bed whomever I wanted. I could father a dozen bastards, and no one in your court would blink an eye."

YASSS, Queen!

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

But I'm thinking chemistry will win out and my take on Daemon's inability to go through with fucking her is that he wasn't expecting her to be as into it as him and there are some real feelings there. 

I think Daemon planned to have sex with her and then blackmail her with that information so he could marry her, and claim the throne through her. He knows that’s a shitty thing to do to a young woman, especially your niece and one who’s not as sexually/politically/socially experienced as you, so she’s got no clue you’re not just acting on attraction. 

[AntFTW]

14 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

But all, in all, I'm loving seeing Rhaenyra playing the game and winning.

- Escaping the palace for a night on the town with Daemon ✔️

- Turning the tables on Daemon and his plans ✔️

- Fucking Criston Cole and keeping it a secret ✔️

- Lying to everyone about everything and getting away with it (I don't count her having to marry Laenor - she knew that was coming regardless) ✔️

-  Got Otto Hightower fired ✔️

And this line: "Were I born a man, I could bed whomever I wanted. I could father a dozen bastards, and no one in your court would blink an eye."

YASSS, Queen!

Yes, getting Otto fired was a masterful move in the political game.

Information is power!

[Lady Whistleup]

I don't think Ali and Viserys have a bad relationship. In the annals of royal marriages it's probably above average -- Viserys is not abusive, doesn't seem to be a philanderer.

With that being said, sexual compatibility in a marriage is important and there is no sexual compatibility between them. Also, Viserys seems determined for her to chug as many babies out as possible in the shortest amount of time, and that's not healthy for any female.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I don't think Ali and Viserys have a bad relationship. In the annals of royal marriages it's probably above average -- Viserys is not abusive, doesn't seem to be a philanderer.

With that being said, sexual compatibility in a marriage is important and there is no sexual compatibility between them. Also, Viserys seems determined for her to chug as many babies out as possible in the shortest amount of time, and that's not healthy for any female.

(Bolding mine) I don’t get that impression from Viserys. Her son was 2 and she was due to have her second child shortly after that- before medical contraceptives (even with medical contraceptives) that’s not atypical spacing. 
 

Also noble women generally didn’t breastfeed their children (which may have helped delay conceiving the next one). Her 2nd baby is 6ish months old, expecting her to have sex with him again isn’t unusual. A three year old and a 6month old doesn’t give me pause even in the 21st century. 
 

I think if Alicent said she wasn’t healed from the birth or unwell Viserys wouldn’t be upset with her for refusing sex, but she’s his wife, and he’s attracted to her so yes she’s expected to be willing to have sex with him excepting illness or something like that. 

[paigow]

Daemon must be using the same stylist as Brienne ... probably a 400 year old Dondarrion

[Helena Dax]

The Targaryens may see incest as normal, but it doesn't mean they approve of any incestuous relationship, meaning Viserys knows that Rhaenyra and Daemon would be dangerous as queen and king consort. Too volatile and hot-headed. She needs someone a bit less fucked-up.

[paigow]

Is there a Westeros version of Indeed that warns people about being Hand Of The King?

• Hiring / firing is capricious, no due process
• Likely to be murdered / attacked on the job

[Constantinople]

In Game of Thrones, Davos told a couple of Gold Cloaks that fermented crab is Viagra.

Last week Daemon kills Craghas the Crabfeeder.

This week Daemon can't get his little dragon to roar for his niece.

#JusticeForCraghas

[jeansheridan]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Game of Thrones, Davos told a couple of Gold Cloaks that fermented crab is Viagra.

And THIS is the humor I miss. Davos the salesman/smuggler. He was such a good hype man for all his bosses. We need a Bronn too. 

[tennisgurl]

Another really good episode, things just keep pilling up, its going to just take one hit for the whole thing to come crashing down. So many factions and characters, and I really like how there are so many ways to read the characters and how complicated their motivations are. Does Daemon want Rhaenya herself or the throne? I think its both, he really is attracted to Rhaenya and he is also ambitious and sees marrying her as a way to the throne. Otto is obviously manipulative and pushing his own agenda, but he wasn't exactly wrong about Rhaenya messing around with Daemon, or even about her virginity, even if he was wrong about who she lost it to and he also clearly has his own motivations for spilling to Viserys. Very few of the characters are totally likable, but I find them all fascinating. 

Daemon might be a manipulative blood thirsty probable attempted usurper, but he does at least acknowledge that woman can and should enjoy sex for more than just procreation and even called out the double standards of how men are allowed to carouse around while women are expected to be chaste. It was especially effective as it was contrasted with Alicent laying back and thinking of Westeros as she has dead fish sex with Viserys. Daemon is not a good guy, but he does actually have some almost progressive views, more so than the more likable royals, in how he sees women and is happy to mix with the smallfolk, even if a lot of that mixing involves booze and boobs. I think that he is attracted to Rhaenya but wasn't really planning on trying anything with her at the brothel, he was just planning on shocking her and maybe even giving her a little bit of Westerosi sex ed, he seemed surprised when she went for it with him, he couldn't even take it too far before he ran away. 

Little Lord Blackwood telling Rhaenya, a woman who rides around on a dragon, that he would protect her might have been precociously hilarious, but he dropped that Bracken knight who was talking shit pretty quickly after too many insults. 

Poor Alicent, she's done everything that has been asked of her but all she has gotten is loneliness. Viserys isn't a bad guy and they seem to get along fine, but there clearly isn't any love between them, he's still mourning his beloved first wife while Alicent is just not into him in that kind of way. It was so nice to see her and Rhaenya getting along for a second, but of course now its looking bad again with the scandal. 

I get that Rhaenya doesn't want to be forced into a political match with someone she doesn't like and have to possibly share her thrown with someone, plus she was clearly deeply scarred by her mothers death by childbirth, but...this is just how it is, she needs to just get on with things and pick someone. How does she expect her family line to continue if she never has a kid? Does she want the throne to just pass to Alicent's children? It sucks that she has to make this political match, but its something that everyone has to do, even her father, she is getting way more options than most people do, man or woman, her constant sulking is getting annoying. 

Ser Criston was really between a rock and a hard place with Rhaenya, he's a knight without a powerful family to back him up and she's the one who has supported his place in the kingsguard, he probably felt like he had to make her happy, but he also clearly knows how badly this can go for him if he gets caught deflowering the princess and heir to the throne. 

Thank God Daemon cut that hair, those long strands were causing me physical pain, I wanted to pull a sword out of the Iron Throne and use it to give him a damn haircut.

[Dac22]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

she had no intention of trying to force him to do anything. 

Well, he did try to leave the room and she blocked the door.

So at the very least, she forced him to stay in the room with her. I would also say when he tried to grab the helmet and she kissed him instead was her forcing him as well.

But like I said before, I think the creators intentions didn't exactly line up with how it came across. 

[Lady Whistleup]

7 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Well, he did try to leave the room and she blocked the door.

So at the very least, she forced him to stay in the room with her. I would also say when he tried to grab the helmet and she kissed him instead was her forcing him as well.

But like I said before, I think the creators intentions didn't exactly line up with how it came across. 

I think it's the fact that Milly Alcock is so tiny. People have a hard time seeing this tiny, short girl as a sexual predator. I feel like if she were tall and commanding the way, say, Sophie Turner was, the scene would have read differently. 

[Uncle JUICE]

13 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think it's the fact that Milly Alcock is so tiny. People have a hard time seeing this tiny, short girl as a sexual predator. I feel like if she were tall and commanding the way, say, Sophie Turner was, the scene would have read differently. 

Doesn't help that less than three hours ago in viewer time, she was 15, and she looks in no way appreciably different now that she's 17 or 18. 

ETA, truth be told, I was kinda uncomfortable with my assessment of the scene where Cole rode the dragon for the very same reason. She still looks like the child we met in E1. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Uncle JUICE

[MBayGal]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

12 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

According the post episode discussion, the writers said the issue wasn't that he had to inform the king of what his daughter was doing....but that the only way anyone would've known, was if Otto was having Rheanyra followed in an effort to get her discredited, and therefore sowing discord at court to further his own interest....Yes people saw her in the brothal, but no one in that brothel would have seen her before to know it was her.

I wouldn't assume no one in the brothel would recognize her. It's unlikely there have been no public events in which she's participated. Plus she's there with Daemon. There won't be that many couples with Targaryen blonde hair walking around and Daemon was already known in that part of town. Plus the last time he was in a tavern/whorehouse, Otto received multiple reports he was there.

I heard the behind the scenes video where they say Otto had Rhaenyra followed, but how? She snuck out with Daemon. I think it makes more sense that they have spies in brothels and taverns. In the high end ones to spy on nobles to make sure they're not thinking of doing anything stupid. In the lower end ones, primarily to take the city's temperature. And she and Daemon were spotted.

I hate it when writers explain things that aren't shown in the show, especially when they don't even make sense.  As Constantinople said, the spy child could not have been posted outside the secret door R. didn't even know was there, just waiting for her to leave.  A good "little bird" is going to be hanging around disreputable places, alert for anyone looking out of place.  He wouldn't even have to know her name, just a young woman with Targaryen hair in that part of town would be enough to report to Otto.  I think we saw him giving something to Daemon's former whore, which I now believe was money from Otto to her. So she hires the spies and her payoffs are how she now supports herself.  

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Does Daemon want Rhaenya herself or the throne? I think its both, he really is attracted to Rhaenya and he is also ambitious and sees marrying her as a way to the throne.

Both. I'm right there with you.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I get that Rhaenya doesn't want to be forced into a political match with someone she doesn't like and have to possibly share her thrown with someone, plus she was clearly deeply scarred by her mothers death by childbirth, but...this is just how it is, she needs to just get on with things and pick someone.

It's not even that she doesn't want to be forced into a political match, she doesn't want to be in any match. She doesn't want to marry at all.

They're giving Rhaenyra the best option of a bad situation (bad in Rhaenyra's eyes at least).

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

How does she expect her family line to continue if she never has a kid? Does she want the throne to just pass to Alicent's children? It sucks that she has to make this political match, but its something that everyone has to do, even her father, she is getting way more options than most people do, man or woman, her constant sulking is getting annoying. 

Tell me about it!

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Ser Criston was really between a rock and a hard place with Rhaenya, he's a knight without a powerful family to back him up and she's the one who has supported his place in the kingsguard, he probably felt like he had to make her happy, but he also clearly knows how badly this can go for him if he gets caught deflowering the princess and heir to the throne. 

I think it's reasonable for Ser Cole to think that the consequences for refusing Rhaenyra and the consequences of acquiescing are the same. What if someone finds out that they had sex? and on the other end, what if he refused and Rhaenyra, as immature as she is, gets upset and makes his life hell.

Even afterwards, when he came into her room when Alicent called for Rhaenyra, he seemed a little nervous, terrified, and uncomfortable.

Edited September 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[sacrebleu]

5 hours ago, Enigma X said:

One thing I am noticing is that Viserys makes it seem as if incestuous marriage is not a Targ thing. I think twice in this episode he showed outright disdain for it. I mean I am with him, but it took me aback because I thought it was no big deal to them. Even if Viserys hated the idea, he made it seem like a taboo idea.

Yeah, this confused me. In GoT there was plenty of references to Targs keeping their bloodlines pure via incest. Cersei even used the comparison to justify her and Jamie and her and various Lannister cousins.

But Viserys and Allicent act like incest is some horrible thing Targaryans USEd to do... 

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, ursula said:

Well it’s not really a theory when Viserys himself is a product of incest, married his first cousin and considered marrying his other cousin’s daughter.

Marrying a cousin isn't incest. Law allows it in most countries. 

Or do you mean that it's regarded as an incest in this fantasy world?

Edited September 12, 2022 by Roseanna
adding a letter

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, Enigma X said:

One thing I am noticing is that Viserys makes it seem as if incestuous marriage is not a Targ thing. I think twice in this episode he showed outright disdain for it. I mean I am with him, but it took me aback because I thought it was no big deal to them. Even if Viserys hated the idea, he made it seem like a taboo idea.

16 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

Yeah, this confused me. In GoT there was plenty of references to Targs keeping their bloodlines pure via incest. Cersei even used the comparison to justify her and Jamie and her and various Lannister cousins.

But Viserys and Allicent act like incest is some horrible thing Targaryans USEd to do... 

Well, not entirely considering that he's about to wed his daughter to their cousin. Vicerys first wife was also his cousin... and that's if we're including cousins. Marrying cousins seems to be completely okay in Westeros.

To me, Viserys' objections aren't the incest, but other things. When Hightower proposed marrying Rhaenyra and Aegon, Viserys' concern was not the future incest, it was Aegon's age.

Viserys didn't seem to think marrying Rhaenyra to Daemon was unthinkable because of the incest spefically. Viserys' objection to hearing that wasn't "ew! That's your niece", it was "you're already married."

Edited September 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[Dac22]

16 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Even afterwards, when he came into her room when Alicent called for Rhaenyra, he seemed a little nervous, terrified, and uncomfortable.

Given the forlorn way he looked at the white cloak before going through with the deed, I read his reaction in that scene as pure shame.

He not only tossed away his honor, but he 'spoiled' the princess as well. My guess is he's going to hate himself for it because he did genuinely value his honor and oaths which is going to complicate things with Rhaenyra. 

[Enigma X]

I could be not remembering well, but I thought at least twice Viserys raised some objection due to how closely related they are. That could just be me making stuff up but not on purpose.

[AntFTW]

7 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I could be not remembering well, but I thought at least twice Viserys raised some objection due to how closely related they are. That could just be me making stuff up but not on purpose.

I could just be misremembering and making stuff up too 🤣

I just don't recall Viserys making incest seem unthinkable or out of the question. I know Alicent did but I recall Viserys doing it.

[Sakura12]

I don't remember Viserys saying anything about their relationship just their ages. For sea snakes daughter he said she's 12 and for Aegon he said the boy just turned 2. He said nothing about him being Rheanyra's brother. It's the age he objects to, not if they are related.  

I've only seen Alicent past judgement on the Targaryan's customs. Even with Daemon it wasn't that's your niece, it was you ruined her reputation. 

[Msample]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

And THIS is the humor I miss. Davos the salesman/smuggler. He was such a good hype man for all his bosses. We need a Bronn too. 

The lack of humor as well as memorable scenes is what has been the biggest drop off from AGOT. Hell 24 hours after Tyrion slapped Joffrey in the second episode it was all over; it had goner viral. This show? I am hard pressed to think of any scene that is worth searching out on YouTube really .