S01.E02: Adrift

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

Galadriel finds a new ally; Elrond faces a cold recognition from an old friend; Nori endeavors to help a Stranger; Arondir searches for answers while Bronwyn warns her people of a threat.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books or stories.

[Anduin]

Very good. Loved seeing Khazad-Dum. That had to be mithril. And then a Numenorean ship at the end.

[Raachel2008]

 Khazad-Dum whoaaaaa. Durin and Disa are my faves, power couple for the win. 

I was never a fan of the hobbits - sorry -, though I enjoyed Frodo and all just fine. I'm also not keen on the Harfoot, but Nori and Poppy are fucking amazing. The scene with the fireflies and the Stranger was just magic and this is coming from someone who doesn't care about these 'magic' moments. LOVED it.

The constellation the Stranger was making with the fireflies, was it the same Galadriel was seeing at the sea?

[Anduin]

38 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

The constellation the Stranger was making with the fireflies, was it the same Galadriel was seeing at the sea?

The one Galadriel saw looked to me like the Southern Cross. Proper southern hemisphere constellation. I approve. Did Bayona just point the camera at the NZ sky one night? :)

[Constantinople]

I'm holding out hope that Theo grows up to be a Nazgûl.

[mrspidey]

So, the Stranger...an Istar? I know they arrived later, but still...

He already displayed two skills that we've seen Gandalf use. Making everything dark around him and talking to insects.

Edited September 2, 2022 by mrspidey

[mrspidey]

13 hours ago, Anduin said:

The one Galadriel saw looked to me like the Southern Cross. Proper southern hemisphere constellation. I approve. Did Bayona just point the camera at the NZ sky one night? :)

I also saw Ursa Major at some point. 

[WritinMan]

The second episode was a little better, but not much. Still rather dull.

I don't care much about the Harfoots at all so far. The only interesting thing there involved the discovery of the crazy old guy.

Galadriel jumping off the boat was really pretty dumb.

I was expecting something much more interesting to come from the raft with the crazy people on it. They were introduced and then killed. A little disappointing.

[Haleth]

Omigosh, I loved this!  Durin and Disa are the best.

Ok, who is the Stranger?  Olorin?  The way he was communicating with the fireflies was a call back to the moth.  Saruman?  (Whatever his name was back then.). One of the other Istari?  He’s obviously a Maia.

My only complaint is we still haven’t seen Numenor!

Edited September 3, 2022 by Haleth

[PurpleTentacle]

From the Wiki: "Dwarves were long-lived, with a lifespan of some 250 years."

So that whole drama around Elrond and his dwarf friend is pretty bullshitty. For a dwarf 20 years would be like 6 for us. No way he would get so pissy over that short amount of time. He also certainly didn't "live an entire life" in those 20 years. Don't the writers know that dwarves also live a long time? This doesn't bode super well for this show.

If they really wanted it to be a long time, which an elf might not realise, they should have made it 50 or a 100.

22 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Ok, who is the Stranger? Olorin?

Yes, 99,9999% sure it's Gandalf. Prequel writers can never help themselves but to build unnecessary connections and explainations for later stuff. This is "see, this is why Gandalf loves Hobbits so much! Also he comes back to their yearly festival every year, because that's when he fell from the sky and was rescued by the Hobbits!"

Edited September 3, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Haleth]

20 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

es, 99,9999% sure it's Gandalf. Prequel writers can never help themselves but to build unnecessary connections and explainations for later stuff. This is "see, this is why Gandalf loves Hobbits so much! Also he comes back to their yearly festival every year, because that's when he fell from the sky and was rescued by the Hobbits!"

Yeah, that makes sense. The halflings’ weed was just a bonus. 

[Grimnar]

Still kind of boring so far. To me it seems that creators put 90% effort to visual and music and writing was after thought.

Little surprised that Celebrimbor didn't think to contact Dwarves to help him and why he has deadline to next spring and next we have scene where 20 years is nothing for elves, what's the hurry? Moria was very impressive. I assume that Elrond and Durin came with secred code "friend" for Moria gate as friend was dropped in every second line they said.

Galadriel was annoying and her plan to swim back to Lindon was stupid. I assume that they were rescued by Númeron ship. I wonder if Númeron has any ports(Pelargir, Umbar,...) in Middle-Earth at this point, because people could go for protection to these ports.

So far pacing seems off, I wonder if this season is supposed to end with creation of One ring. Regarding lore I think that for Tolkien fans there is too much changes(probably due to lack of license) and for casual viewer it can be really confusing.

[Rushmoras]

Spoiler

So, is the mysterious stranger supposed to be Gendalf or one of the mages? I seem to recall something form his other books that Gendalf and co. were the third ones to come to Middle Earth.

[Aulty]

45 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

  Hide contents

So, is the mysterious stranger supposed to be Gendalf or one of the mages? I seem to recall something form his other books that Gendalf and co. were the third ones to come to Middle Earth.

Spoiler

He could be one of the 2 blue wizards (Altar or Pallando). iirc Tolkien has them arrive in Middle Earth in the Second Age, almost three thousand years ahead of Gandalf who sails over in the 3rd age, in later writings (in earlier writings, all the wizards arrive in the 3rd age). And they were operating further East and South than Saruman and Gandalf which puts them roughly in the right area. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I also doubt that Amazon has the rights to use the Gandalf character on the show. We will find out soon.

[Haleth]

You don't need spoiler tags for speculation on this thread.  Book talk is allowed.

[Grimnar]

13 minutes ago, Aulty said:

  Hide contents

He could be one of the 2 blue wizards (Altar or Pallando). iirc Tolkien has them arrive in Middle Earth in the Second Age, almost three thousand years ahead of Gandalf who sails over in the 3rd age, in later writings (in earlier writings, all the wizards arrive in the 3rd age). And they were operating further East and South than Saruman and Gandalf which puts them roughly in the right area. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I also doubt that Amazon has the rights to use the Gandalf character on the show. We will find out soon.

Spoiler

There are different versions when Blue Wizard arrived to Middle Earth. If we go with Appendices(in other words what creators have license) they should come in Third Age.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Grimnar

[PurpleTentacle]

Guys, these writers couldn't even get straight how long dwarves live or that dwarven women should have beards (still salty about that one). Do you really think they know or care in which age the Wizards came to middle earth? The only way this is not Gandalf is if they don't have the rights to use him. Even then they might just keep it ambiguous.

[call me ishmael]

58 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Guys, these writers couldn't even get straight how long dwarves live or that dwarven women should have beards (still salty about that one). Do you really think they know or care in which age the Wizards came to middle earth? The only way this is not Gandalf is if they don't have the rights to use him. Even then they might just keep it ambiguous.

I go back and forth on this.  On the one hand, you are probably right.  But on the other are they going to do something that so explicitly goes against what Tolkien wrote?  It’s very clear that the rings come before he does.  In fact,  Saruman comes first, etc.  it’s one thing to reimagine it’s another to take such a canonical character and contradict his story.  Unless they simply want the controversy it seems a strange thing to open yourself up to,

[susannot]

15 hours ago, Aulty said:

  Hide contents

He could be one of the 2 blue wizards (Altar or Pallando). iirc Tolkien has them arrive in Middle Earth in the Second Age, almost three thousand years ahead of Gandalf who sails over in the 3rd age, in later writings (in earlier writings, all the wizards arrive in the 3rd age). And they were operating further East and South than Saruman and Gandalf which puts them roughly in the right area. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I also doubt that Amazon has the rights to use the Gandalf character on the show. We will find out soon.

Please, Jeff spent 1 BILLION dollars on this show.  He has the rights to Galadriel & Elrond, so why not Gandalf and all other characters?

[quarks]

I think I liked this episode more than the first one, largely because it was mostly doing its own thing and not trying to drop in book references every few minutes or so - getting the references either wrong or slightly off, anyway. The scene with the stranger and the fireflies and the constellations was lovely, and everything with the dwarves - my favorite group so far - was great.

I can definitely do without Theo, though.  And so far, at least, I'm not getting much of an emotional impact/response from any of this.

[Aulty]

4 hours ago, susannot said:

Please, Jeff spent 1 BILLION dollars on this show.  He has the rights to Galadriel & Elrond, so why not Gandalf and all other characters?

If only it was that easy. What Amazon bought for 250 million (outbidding Netflix) limits them to stories of the second age (Gandalf isn't in Middle Earth in the second age) and they mustn't show events from the LOTR or the Hobbit (those rights are with Warner iirc). The Tolkien estate is quite protective of their stuff and who can do what is a bit complicated.

My money is still on him being one on the Blues.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Aulty said:

If only it was that easy. What Amazon bought for 250 million (outbidding Netflix) limits them to stories of the second age (Gandalf isn't in Middle Earth in the second age) and they mustn't show events from the LOTR or the Hobbit (those rights are with Warner iirc). The Tolkien estate is quite protective of their stuff and who can do what is a bit complicated.

My money is still on him being one on the Blues.

 They have the rights to the LOTR trilogy, the Hobbit, and the appendices.  Hence some fans bitching about them trying to make a Second Age show without the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc.

So if they really wanted to, they could make him Gandalf (although he'd likely be going by Olorin) and just come up with some explanation for wiping his memory.  A Blue wizard seems more likely, just so they can have a Gandalf-like character without using the genuine article.

They should have just named Halbrand Han Solo - I just hope they don't try to squeeze in some sort of romance between him and Galadriel.  Speaking of Galadriel, it's going to be hilarious if she wasted all of the time suffering through the north just to find a (mostly) empty fortress when she could have just gone south and spared her team all of that bitter cold.

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

I can definitely do without Theo, though.

Yeah, he follows a long line of cliche annoying, moody teen characters who drag down any series.  And why does he have a Greek name?

In the thread for the first episode I noted how amusing it was that the writers were tiptoeing around Feanor and the Silmarils without mentioning Feanor or the Silmarils.  Yet this epi?  They mention both Feanor and the Silmarils.  

I'm going to speculate that the Stranger is never named and we will be left wondering who (which of the Istari) he is.

(By the way, thank you, my people, for letting me totally geek out!  My friends and family don't understand. 😄)

Edited September 4, 2022 by Haleth

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Yeah, he follows a long line of cliche annoying, moody teen characters who drag down any series.  And why does he have a Greek name?

In the thread for the first episode I noted how amusing it was that the writers were tiptoeing around Feanor and the Silmarils without mentioning Feanor or the Silmarils.  Yet this epi?  They mention both Feanor and the Silmarils.  

I'm going to speculate that the Stranger is never named and we will be left wondering who (which of the Istari) he is.

(By the way, thank you, my people, for letting me totally geek out!  My friends and family don't understand. 😄)

Yeah, I was initially, wait, what, were Feanor and the Silmarils just not mentioned anywhere in The Lord of the Rings, and then I went to check something else, and found this right at the start of Appendix A:

"Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore, but also the proudest and most selfwilled. He wrought the Three Jewels, the Silmarilli, and filled them with the radiance of the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurelin, that gave light to the land of the Valar...."

and so on. So, yeah, I am at a loss to explain exactly why the first episode kept tiptoeing around that.

[Anduin]

I like Theo. Not only is the actor an Aussie, he's a West Aussie! We also claim Gigi Edgely, Heath Ledger, and, um, Sam Worthington. Anyway, yes, I'm parochial.

[Quark]

This show just feels so epic, I adore it. The music, the locations, the acting, it's all so beautiful.

Khazad-Dhum was beyond cool.

[shrewd.buddha]

I am still wondering if making most of the central characters elves was a good move.  They are very stoic and snooty by nature.  Also, they live for centuries and don't have to deal with sickness or injury very much - - not the most relatable characters. 

And I wasn't very impressed with Galadriel's shipwreck friend.  He showed no concern at all for his fellow survivors and seemed to be totally fine when they were killed.  He only seemed motivated to save Galadriel because he might want "to hit that". 

And those proto-Hobbits: how do they manage to have the exact same leaves and twigs in their hair on a daily basis??  Nori (?) somehow manages to go the (nearby) comet crash site and visits  not!Gandalf regularly without any of the grownups ever figuring anything out.
How long will the mystery sorcerer thing be dragged out? 

I feel fairly confident that the hunky Elf soldier with very short hair is going to be fine.  If he were actually killed by the Orcs, things might seem a little less predictable. 
Speaking of such things: they shouldn't bother putting Galadriel and Elrond in danger: they are destined to be totally fine.

Who is the target audience for  this?  The Disney channel people?  It's not very adult and the action-adventure aspect feels a bit tame -- although the Orc fight in the healer-woman's house was well done.

Edited September 4, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[JTMacc99]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:55 PM, mrspidey said:

I also saw Ursa Major at some point. 

It seemed to be brighter as well, as I also noticed it. 

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Who is the target audience for  this?  The Disney channel people?  It's not very adult and the action-adventure aspect feels a bit tame -- although the Orc fight in the healer-woman's house was well done.

From these first two episodes, I think the target audience is supposed to be everyone.  They seem to be trying to appeal to the general audience (by keeping things rather simplistic), as well as Lord of the Rings fans (by including specific names and places).   There seems to be goofy stuff that are more aimed for kids and then more serious stuff with the long conversations that would be boring for children.  The problem is of course when you try to cater to everyone, you sometimes satisfy no one, which is sort of where the first two episodes fell to some extent.

There were questions about how "adult" the show would be during production, but it seems like they ended up with a family-friendly show that kids can watch with their parents, like the "Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings".  I personally prefer that, but I wonder if that will turn off viewers who prefer a more explicit show like "Game of Thrones" and "The Boys".   

Edited September 4, 2022 by Camera One

[QuantumMechanic]

On 9/2/2022 at 9:34 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

99,9999% sure it's Gandalf. Prequel writers can never help themselves but to build unnecessary connections and explainations for later stuff. This is "see, this is why Gandalf loves Hobbits so much! Also he comes back to their yearly festival every year, because that's when he fell from the sky and was rescued by the Hobbits!"

But that would be an explicit, no-holds-barred contradiction with the actual running text of LotR and/or the Appendices which say that Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth at the Grey Havens and that Cirdan, who was the custodian of Narya, gave Narya to Gandalf, having perceived his nature and mission.

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, QuantumMechanic said:

But that would be an explicit, no-holds-barred contradiction with the actual running text of LotR and/or the Appendices which say that Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth at the Grey Havens and that Cirdan, who was the custodian of Narya, gave Narya to Gandalf, having perceived his nature and mission.

Like dwarves considering 20 years as half a lifetime or dwarf women not having beards? I'm sure the writers would never do something like that!

[iMonrey]

The most absurd part of the episode was the guy on the raft diving down into the ocean to save Galadriel while monsoon strength winds are rolling the waves a million miles an hour, yet when they come back up to the surface, the raft is still right there. Uh, sure.

Quote

Who is the target audience for  this?  The Disney channel people?  It's not very adult and the action-adventure aspect feels a bit tame -- although the Orc fight in the healer-woman's house was well done.

From the first two episodes I would assume the audience is hardcore LotR fans, because I never read those books or watched those movies, and I feel like I have no idea what's going on most of the time. If that's not the case, then they are doing a terrible job of making this story accessible to a broader audience.

[Camera One]

Just now, iMonrey said:

I feel like I have no idea what's going on most of the time. If that's not the case, then they are doing a terrible job of making this story accessible to a broader audience.

I feel like this seems to be the approach of a lot of new series I've watched.  Posing question after question, with the goal of the audience wanting to tune in to find out more.  I guess in this case, it's having the opposite effect of causing frustration instead.  Plus this strategy only works if a viewer cares about the question being asked.  Am I supposed to care about what's in the dwarf king's mysterious box?  

Quote

From the first two episodes I would assume the audience is hardcore LotR fans, because I never read those books or watched those movies

From reading/listening to the thoughts of people who know the lore from the books, it seems like so much was changed or ignored that many are not satisfied.

But I wonder how much of the questions they ask are targeted at casual fans who do have some prior knowledge?  It is common in prequels with Star Wars too.  Who could ____ turn out to be from the future?  A viewer who knows nothing could still be curious about the Meteor Man, but a casual fan could speculate what known character he could be.  Ditto for the ending of this one - who is standing over the raft at the end?  I suppose in a well-crafted show, the mystery would be equally interesting for both groups, but it's a tricky balance. 

[quarks]

14 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

From the first two episodes I would assume the audience is hardcore LotR fans, because I never read those books or watched those movies, and I feel like I have no idea what's going on most of the time. If that's not the case, then they are doing a terrible job of making this story accessible to a broader audience.

This is a really interesting point, because although I hadn't realized this until you mentioned this problem in this thread and the non-book thread, the actual Lord of the Rings books (including The Hobbit and all of the Histories of Middle-Earth stuff) go way out of their way not to do this. For instance, in The Hobbit, Tolkien stops the narrative dead on literally page two to explain what a hobbit is. On the next page he starts explaining Gandalf. Brief explanations, but this is kinda the tone for the entire book, with Tolkien constantly stopping to explain about various things.

The Lord of the Rings is similar. It starts out with a prologue explaining - again - exactly what hobbits are and giving a bit of the background, and then, just a couple of chapters in, the narrative stops to explain other things, letting the readers discover things more or less at the same time that the hobbits do.

So it's interesting to me that the show has taken such a different approach. 

[quarks]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I feel like this seems to be the approach of a lot of new series I've watched.  Posing question after question, with the goal of the audience wanting to tune in to find out more.  I guess in this case, it's having the opposite effect of causing frustration instead.  Plus this strategy only works if a viewer cares about the question being asked.  Am I supposed to care about what's in the dwarf king's mysterious box?  

From reading/listening to the thoughts of people who know the lore from the books, it seems like so much was changed or ignored that many are not satisfied.

As a book reader, I would describe myself more as puzzled by some of the choices, rather than not satisfied.  Like the claim in the show that the two prior romantic relationships between a human and an elf ended tragically. That's at best arguable for one of them and not true for the other one. So, why bring it up at all?

Or with the box. Presumably what's inside is either mithril or (unlikely) a couple of seeds from the White Tree or (extremely unlikely) the Arkenstone or (extremely extremely unlikely) a Silmaril or (quite possible) something entirely original to the series.  The first three came up in the films and don't really need to be turned into Oooh What a Mysterious Cliffhanger. But regardless of what's in there, yeah, I think viewers are supposed to care, and I kinda think that viewers probably might have cared more - or at least been intrigued more - by seeing a few bits of mithril gleaming here and there in the walls and stones of Khazad-dum, or a mention of a Silmaril, instead of this whole elaborate bit of WHAT IS IN THE BOX, which kinda left me going, ok, whatever, instead of giving me any sense of anticipation.

[quarks]

Responding to the "Is Valinor a real place?" over on the non-book thread, because although quite a lot was covered there, there's a potential plot point that wasn't:

At this precise point in Middle-Earth history, Valinor is a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas, the Enchanted Isles, and the Shadowy Seas from the rest of Middle-Earth and Numenor. It is a large continent inhabited by the Valar, the Maiar, and the Elves who didn't return to Middle-Earth. The Elves are specifically sailing to Tol Eressea, an island very close to Valinor.  We haven't seen this on the show yet, but occasionally, a ship does sail the other way.

Mortals (aka everyone not an Elf or a member of the Valar or the Maiar) can see Tol Eressea from a very high mountain on the other side of the Shadowy Seas if it's a very clear day, and they have excellent eyesight. But they are not allowed to "attempt to step foot on the Undying Lands," (Return of the King, Appendix A).

I'm assuming that this whole portal of light thing, which is not in the books, is the show's attempt to depict the fact that only Elves (and one half-Elf who hasn't been mentioned on the show so far) are allowed to step foot in the Undying Lands.

Discussion of what may be coming up later in the series under the spoiler tag:

Spoiler

This will almost certainly be a huge plot point later this season, since - major spoiler - this all gets drastically changed before The Lord of the Rings. But also - MAJOR SPOILER - at least part of why the kings of Numenor are so upset is because they can JUST BARELY SEE one of the islands close to Valinor and yet CAN'T GET THERE.  Which is why I thought it was a bit odd to have this whole giant golden portal thing, since it presumably blocks that view, eliminating one of the major motivations for upcoming plot points. 

And since it was quoted in the movies, I have to assume that the showrunners know that the only description we have of sailing to Tor Eressea in the books never mentions a portal of light. Instead we get: 

"....until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as inn his dream of the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise."

But I can fanwank that things changed between the trip we just saw on the show and Frodo's later trip, and that this might be a deliberate choice by the showrunners to visually depict that change. 

SIDENOTE: Technically, Valinor is not exactly the home of the Elves - the very first Elves, who are not in this show, were all born in Middle-Earth. But that's an entirely different story that this show does not have the rights to, so it won't be coming up.

[JTMacc99]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

From the first two episodes I would assume the audience is hardcore LotR fans, because I never read those books or watched those movies, and I feel like I have no idea what's going on most of the time. If that's not the case, then they are doing a terrible job of making this story accessible to a broader audience.

Through two episodes, it works perfectly for me as a movie watcher, but not a book reader.

• I know absolutely nothing that wasn't part of the movies, and if it was barely touched upon in the movies, I probably wouldn't recognize it here.
• I have a basic understanding of Middle Earth, Elf-Dwarf-Human societies, who some of the characters are including the bad guy.
• And as such, I know enough to immediately pick up the gist of what is underway, but not enough where I'm thinking "Oh that's different" or "I wonder when this or that is going to be introduced".

Also, I'm reminding myself that this is planned to a story told across five seasons. So even though the show looks like a movie, I'm not expecting each episode to proceed at a movie's pace.

[Anduin]

Charles Edwards reminds me of Jon Pertwee. Anyone else see that?

Also, I think the Stranger is up to no good. His fire was cold, like at the northern outpost in ep 1. If he was Gandalf, it would be a warm but not burning fire.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

Charles Edwards reminds me of Jon Pertwee. Anyone else see that?

Also, I think the Stranger is up to no good. His fire was cold, like at the northern outpost in ep 1. If he was Gandalf, it would be a warm but not burning fire.

Was his fire shown to be actively cold or just not harmful so Nori didn't burn to death in agonizing pain?

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Was his fire shown to be actively cold or just not harmful so Nori didn't burn to death in agonizing pain?

I don't know for sure, but it seemed cold.

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Anduin said:

I don't know for sure, but it seemed cold.

Was it cold compared to the rest of the environment or just cold compared to normal fire?  Was Nori shivering when she got near it or something?

[Affogato]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:21 PM, Anduin said:

Charles Edwards reminds me of Jon Pertwee. Anyone else see that?

Also, I think the Stranger is up to no good. His fire was cold, like at the northern outpost in ep 1. If he was Gandalf, it would be a warm but not burning fire.

Well my first thought was ‘sauron’, possibly with amnesia. 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well my first thought was ‘sauron’, possibly with amnesia. 

It gets a bit into the third episode but the actions the Stranger takes just do not seem like anything that Sauron would choose to do under any circumstances.

[JustHereForFood]

I loved the dwarf city, this show is going to be such a scenery porn. I was glad once Durin dropped the passive-aggressiveness.

A bit surprised that all of Galadriel's portion was still in the water, but at least it shows how dumb it is to jump off a ship in the middle of the ocean. I get the feeling that I'm not going to like the man she is now travelling with.

Bronwyn's story is interesting, that thing that attacked them (was it some kind of Orc?) was so creepy. And her killing it was so badass, I loved when she brought the head to those ignorant villagers and they all remained stunned.

Regarding the mysterious man, my first thought last episode was Gandalf and that it would be interesting if they managed to keep that a secret, but since I took a week before watching the second episode and it wasn't all over the internet, I figured that that was crazy idea. So it's interesting to see that other posters thought about the same.

On 9/5/2022 at 6:35 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Like dwarves considering 20 years as half a lifetime or dwarf women not having beards? I'm sure the writers would never do something like that!

He got married and had 2 kids in that time, that are some significant life changes even for those with longer time span.

On 9/5/2022 at 6:57 PM, quarks said:

This is a really interesting point, because although I hadn't realized this until you mentioned this problem in this thread and the non-book thread, the actual Lord of the Rings books (including The Hobbit and all of the Histories of Middle-Earth stuff) go way out of their way not to do this. For instance, in The Hobbit, Tolkien stops the narrative dead on literally page two to explain what a hobbit is. On the next page he starts explaining Gandalf. Brief explanations, but this is kinda the tone for the entire book, with Tolkien constantly stopping to explain about various things.

The Lord of the Rings is similar. It starts out with a prologue explaining - again - exactly what hobbits are and giving a bit of the background, and then, just a couple of chapters in, the narrative stops to explain other things, letting the readers discover things more or less at the same time that the hobbits do.

So it's interesting to me that the show has taken such a different approach. 

But that's books, which are a different format. It wasn't explained like that in the movies.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

But that's books, which are a different format. It wasn't explained like that in the movies.

But the films did do at least some of this, especially in the extended editions, which frequently stop the narrative dead to explain various small things. 

[Bellatrix]

On 9/11/2022 at 4:06 AM, quarks said:

But the films did do at least some of this, especially in the extended editions, which frequently stop the narrative dead to explain various small things. 

I honestly hate that kind of storytelling, (I got to page two of the Hobbit,) so I am honestly relieved they're not doing that. *g*

I don't like being aware that people are telling me a story, I just want to be drawn in by it and be swept up in it.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Bellatrix

[Hanahope]

i'm a tad curious about the timeline.  I've read some books, but not all, so i likely missed details.

I know Isildor will grow up to cut off Sauron's hand and gain the one ring.  were the 9 human kings already the Nazgul by this time?  it seemed to me they didn't become that until after their "natural life span" which I would think is at least 50 years or more, yet Isildor gets the ring in what 20 years?  maybe 30 tops?  this is to say, i was a tad surprised we got Isildor already.

[QuantumMechanic]

32 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

i'm a tad curious about the timeline.  I've read some books, but not all, so i likely missed details.

I know Isildor will grow up to cut off Sauron's hand and gain the one ring.  were the 9 human kings already the Nazgul by this time?  it seemed to me they didn't become that until after their "natural life span" which I would think is at least 50 years or more, yet Isildor gets the ring in what 20 years?  maybe 30 tops?  this is to say, i was a tad surprised we got Isildor already.

There's only one answer to all of that:  "Who the hell knows???"

The problem is that the show's timeline has fuck-all to do with the canonical timeline.

The show is set somewhere in the last 200 years of the Second Age.  We know this because of the existence of Elendil and Isildur and their ages.

In the books, the 3 rings were forged about 1800 years before this and the One was forged about 1600 years before this.  The Nazgul first openly appeared about 1000 years before this.

So as you can see, there is really no way to reconcile the show to the books.  The show's decision to use a compressed timeline ("let's make most of the 3400-year Second Age happen in a 5-10 year period") means that virtually nothing can happen in the show as it happened in the books, save the end of Numenor and the Last Alliance against Sauron.

Edited October 10, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[quarks]

38 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

i'm a tad curious about the timeline.  I've read some books, but not all, so i likely missed details.

I know Isildor will grow up to cut off Sauron's hand and gain the one ring.  were the 9 human kings already the Nazgul by this time?  it seemed to me they didn't become that until after their "natural life span" which I would think is at least 50 years or more, yet Isildor gets the ring in what 20 years?  maybe 30 tops?  this is to say, i was a tad surprised we got Isildor already.

The show isn't following the timeline of the books.

According to appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, the Elves began to forge the Rings around 1500 of the Second Age. Sauron forged the One Ring somewhere around 1600. Numenor sent help at around 1700, and Sauron was (temporarily) defeated.

Isildur grew up and cut off Sauron's hand in 3441.

So, yeah, in the book timeline the Nazgul had plenty of time to reach age 50 or whatever and then become Nazgul. The show is compressing this quite a bit.

[Hanahope]

wow, that is quite the compression of timelines.  good to know my confusion has support. 

I guess they had to do something because other than the elves, no one lived long enough to be around for all of these events.  so either have a show almost exclusively about the elves, or do major compression.    still, couldn't they have idk, maybe save Isildor for season 3 or 4 and had a time jump?  i mean there's compression and then there's completely pancake.