S06.E13: Saul Gone

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Ottis said:

I don't know how visitation works, but that New Mexico bar card with no expiration date won't work forever.

But the ending says that Jimmy doesn't choose to continue to "be like this." He had two choices at the end (note the 'Exit" sign with 2 directional arrows in the courtroom shot), and he chose to be different at the end. And Kim recognized that.

It wasn't about what Saul could give them. It was about game recognizing game ... the US side realizing the talents of Saul Goodman and the gullibility of the general public. Did they want to take that chance? No. Now, does that mean 160 years becomes 7? Probably not. But for the purposes of this show making a point, no problem from me.

I don't think we knew if she would be waiting for him after 7 months, if he didn't come clean and become the person she fell in love with. In the end, he chose Jimmy and Kim, at great cost.

Overall, I like the ending. Want to think about it more.

I think they'll keep in touch but it will be by snail mail and phone calls mostly. She used the lawyers card because she wanted more privacy then they'd ordinarily give her. Next time she can just go in as a friend and accept the restrictions. 

[Bannon]

Now, having said that my reading of DoJ's history  tells me that Saul pretty easily could have testimony with enough value to trade for a sweetheart deal, it wasn't the most elegant plotting to display that. Far be it for me to tell G&G how to write a story, but it would have been pretty easy to better flesh out Saul having another ace up his sleeve with regard to his ability to implicate powerful entities in his money laundering racket, and then, when it became clear how legally exposed Kim is ( and she really is, actually), instead explicitly deploy that ace to protect her, rather than himself.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Bannon

[gallimaufry]

One thing I love about the courtroom scene was that it perfectly echoed three key points in Jimmy's evolution.

101: "Uno".  Jimmy is defending an unwinnable case.  All that needs to be done is to show the jury the actual crime and he's going down.  He goes in with his "showtime!" whisper in 101, but he knows that they're not going to win - "they had sex with a head!"  Similarly he knows here that as much as he still whispers "showtime!" in any just system he should go down and this isn't one that he should razzle-dazzle.  If anything, the "showtime!" refrain was an indication that he wasn't going to beat the rap.

305: "Chicanery".  Jimmy and Kim needle Chuck to break down on the stand "like a murderer confessing in an episode of Perry Mason" while his ex-wife is watching.  Now Jimmy lures his ex-wife to come and watch him break down.

410: "Winner".  Jimmy suckered Kim just as he suckered the legal board.  I don't know if he ever knew that he did that and I genuinely don't think he realised he did at the time but I think he must have figured it out pretty quickly, perhaps as early as the "slow my roll" conversation at the start of 501.  He did it by spinning a well-rehearsed but disingenuous strategy that he parlayed into a dishonest but seemingly true emotional appeal about his brother.  This time he has a well-rehearsed but disingenuous strategy but turns it into a genuine and honest response to Kim.  And whereas in 410, Kim went in believing and got blindsided, now she comes in disbelieving but knows her ex-husband.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Anything is possible.  But if such matters are not included in the canon of BB, it's just speculation. 

My point is that the DoJ frequently serves up sweetheart deals, in return for testimony it values, and a money launderer is often the sort of person who could provide such testimony. Also, it is true that the prospect of a vigorous defense makes it more likely for a prosecutor to offer such a deal. One of the things I've loved about this show is how consistently, and accurately, it has portrayed the criminal justice system as merely a factory for producing guilty pleas, with little regard for justice or public safety. I kind of like how the final episode featured that theme again

[Eulipian 5k]

If it's six years since Kim left Saul, then Howard is due for a legal establishment of DEAD in a year. Cheryl may get the 6M$ to finance that civil suit.

I don't know how you can prove a missing person is murdered, no matter who confesses. (Saul has someone who'll do your jail time for you). You need some type of DNA with circumstances that speak to foul play, like brain matter on a, long disposed of, coffee table. It is just like Hector accusing Gus of murdering Lalo. Judge Eladio would throw out any case involving Howard's murder, 😖ding, 😖ding,😖 ding!

Edited August 16, 2022 by Eulipian 5k
time to die

[scenario]

5 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

If it's six years since Kim left Saul, then Howard is due for a legal establishment of DEAD in a year. Cheryl may get the 6M$ to finance that civil suit.

I don't know how you can prove a missing person is murdered, no matter who confesses. (Saul has someone who'll do your jail time for you). You need some type of DNA with circumstances that speak to foul play, like brain matter on a, long disposed of, coffee table. It is just like Hector accusing Gus of murdering Lalo. Judge Eladio would throw out any case involving Howard's murder, 😖ding, 😖ding,😖 ding!

There have been successful prosecutions without a body. And Kim actually witnessed the murder. It wasn't hearsay. 

There is the problem that Kim says that Lalo killed Howard a fair time after Lalo was declared dead. 

[monagatuna]

Remember early on in the series when Jimmy went into the HHM conference room and shouted "YOU! WILL! ATONE!"? That was in my head throughout this entire episode. I highly doubt the writers had that in mind when they wrote that line, but it was a fun coincidence.

[Starchild]

I am very slightly sad there wasn't, at minimum, a passing reference to searching the site of Gus' lab again. I think with Kim's and Jimmy's statements, and a knowledge that there was a site owned by an involved party that was under construction at the time, it's only logical to presume that Howard's body might be there. It's worth looking, i'd think.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Starchild

[conquistador]

Fantastic ending. I’m glad we got final moments between Saul and Mike, Walt, Marie, Chuck (!), Kim. I’m equally pleased that Gus and the cartel didn’t show up again (I felt that they teased a Gale Boetticher cameo a couple of episodes ago, but we didn’t need that).

Solid directing, and very fitting for a ”criminal” lawyer of Saul’s caliber to wind up in the courtroom but still be in charge of the situation.

Edited August 16, 2022 by conquistador

[Armchair Critic]

What is rare is not only is the acting teriffic but most of the cast is over 50, with a few over 70.

[DrSpaceman73]

Everyone associated with walts case seems to be gone or dead.  Or missing. That's the whole point of the conversation he had with the assistant a few episodes back.  He couldn't give the government anything else about it for any sort of further plea deal. 

As mentioned before I didn't really care to have some drawn out argument on screen over the governments case and evidence and the specifics of any deal. It would all be pretty boring. 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

The point of the episode was not to show the government building a case against him or how they did it.  We all saw it and what he was doing in two different series.  The viewers don't really need convincing he was a crooked lawyer who broke many laws. Maybe you don't agree with the drug or money laundering laws but they still exist. The argument over whether he was or wasn't a criminal has long since been answered and we don't need more evidence for it

Of course we know he was a crooked lawyer, but I (maybe others) would find it interesting and enlightening to see a list of crimes committed and evidence for it. That's all. I think it would be fun to see the list and get the reminders of everything he's done.

[SimplexFish]

No one here has commented that when Saul was first arrested the initial call he made was to the Cinnabon that he managed to say he isn't coming in and asked the assistant manager to set next weeks schedule. Very Gus Fring of him...LOL

[Lalo Lives]

11 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

No one here has commented that when Saul was first arrested the initial call he made was to the Cinnabon that he managed to say he isn't coming in and asked the assistant manager to set next weeks schedule. Very Gus Fring of him...LOL

Yeah, call unexpected. He was very courteous to the young lady.

[PeterPirate]

9 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Of course we know he was a crooked lawyer, but I (maybe others) would find it interesting and enlightening to see a list of crimes committed and evidence for it. That's all. I think it would be fun to see the list and get the reminders of everything he's done.

Yeah.  I would have liked seeing Kim's full affidavit.  Too bad they stopped making those short videos with side content.  

I'm 50-50 on the idea of having a post-BCS movie for Kim.  Maybe things are better left to the imagination.  

[DrSpaceman73]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

Yeah.  I would have liked seeing Kim's full affidavit.  Too bad they stopped making those short videos with side content.  

I'm 50-50 on the idea of having a post-BCS movie for Kim.  Maybe things are better left to the imagination.  

We saw everything in Kim's affidavit onscreen.  It would be a summary of the show.

[PeterPirate]

5 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

We saw everything in Kim's affidavit onscreen.  It would be a summary of the show.

Well, what we saw started at paragraph 8, with the words "After Salamanca's departure".  So we don't know how much she told about their prior association with Lalo.  Following the previous episode, I was curious how much legal peril Kim could be in because of that.  

But in the end it doesn't matter.  Regardless of how much Saul told the authorities, Kim was not arrested and showed up at his sentencing as a free person.

[Armchair Critic]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

The Mad Men fans here might appreciate this paragraph of Don Draper parallels from the NYTimes review of this ep: 

Oh the glory days of Sunday night tv with Mad Men and then Breaking Bad afterward, an embarrassment of riches.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

One of the things I've loved about this show is how consistently, and accurately, it has portrayed the criminal justice system as merely a factory for producing guilty pleas,

O.G. Adam Schiff [not the dude in Congress} would frequently berate Stone & McCoy for NOT making a plea deal

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

It felt completely out of character to me too.  I think the one thing out of all that which weighed on his conscience was Chuck, because he was singularly responsible for Chuck's death.  That might cause him to do penance.  All of the other things he could hand waive.  he wasn't directly responsible for Hank or Gomez, and even Howard he could rationalize was just bad luck.

Yeah.  Jimmy's objective was to convince Kim that he was Jimmy and not Saul.  Unburdening his conscience was secondary.  

Every time Jimmy turned and looked at Kim during his allocution, she maintained eye contact with him but didn't soften her expression.  Some people think she softened a small amount in the last shot.  

[scenario]

If I'm remembering correctly the Mexican Government declared Lalo dead and that was proved beyond a reasonable doubt by dental records.

Kim's confession said that Lalo killed Howard. If they are going to prosecute Kim, wouldn't they need to prove that Lalo was alive at that time. And that would involve international law. 

It seems that that would be an impediment in prosecuting Kim criminally. 

[Guy Incognito]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Francesca told Gene about the Fed's seizures. Where did Saul legally get his golden sh#tter money?: from Walt's drug racket. Spooge, et al, did not raise that $; it came from Walt. Don't remember if Saul was part of Mike's Guys set up in the islands. But the Gov't pays Forensic Accountants to find the money trails; which is how they get them from Capone on up. You have to prove your income was legally obtained from legal enterprises.

They seized SAUL'S money, not Walt's. But that still leads you back to the question of why? What evidence would they have Saul got that money from Walt. It was always cash. There is literally no way to connect his money to Walter White.

That's my point. There isn't a ton of evidence out there that really connects Saul to Walt. But they leveled massive charges against him. Even connected him to murder! On what evidence?

[NeenerNeener]

In colleges all across the land this fall students will be writing term papers on the symbolism of Jimmy's life in color and Gene's life in black and white.

[PeterPirate]

2 minutes ago, Guy Incognito said:

They seized SAUL'S money, not Walt's. But that still leads you back to the question of why? What evidence would they have Saul got that money from Walt. It was always cash. There is literally no way to connect his money to Walter White.

That's my point. There isn't a ton of evidence out there that really connects Saul to Walt. But they leveled massive charges against him. Even connected him to murder! On what evidence?

I agree with this.  When the DEA found Mike's money, they did not trace the account back to Saul.  Even assuming Saul set that up for Mike, Saul covered his own tracks effectively.  And Walt did not use the nail salons or laser tag businesses.   

In the end I think it was Skylar and Francesca who provided the link between Saul and Walt.  Plus the fact that Saul disappeared when Walt did.  

Also, who really did most of the money laundering for Walter White?  Skylar White, not Saul Goodman.  But, apparently, she got a deal and stayed out of prison.  So I can understand why the prosecution threatened Life Plus 190, offered to take 30, and allowed themselves to be bargained down to 7.  

[ShadowFacts]

42 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Yeah.  Jimmy's objective was to convince Kim that he was Jimmy and not Saul.  Unburdening his conscience was secondary.  

Every time Jimmy turned and looked at Kim during his allocution, she maintained eye contact with him but didn't soften her expression.  Some people think she softened a small amount in the last shot.  

I think convincing Kim and unburdening his conscience are inextricably linked. Saul would not ever assert that what be did to Chuck was a crime, that was stunning. In doing that he was not just Jimmy, he was Jimmy laying himself bare.

[Penman61]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Every time Jimmy turned and looked at Kim during his allocution, she maintained eye contact with him but didn't soften her expression.  Some people think she softened a small amount in the last shot.  

[Emphasis added.]

I looked at the cuts to Kim again, and she definitely softened in that last shot. Very subtle, but she absolutely did.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Penman61

[CynicalGirl]

I think part of the reason he went for the 30 year sentence was because he knew, if left to his own devices, he would be doing cons and he didn't want to hurt anyone else. If he did the 7 years, he wouldn't have to hide anymore. He could be Jimmy and not Gene or Saul. But maybe Jimmy was  a little scared of Jimmy. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by CynicalGirl

[MBayGal]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Oh the glory days of Sunday night tv with Mad Men and then Breaking Bad afterward, an embarrassment of riches.

And they were both on free channels, you didn't have to pay for a streaming service. 

[millennium]

I noticed a parallel between Gus Fring calling the worker at Pollos Hermanos and leaving instructions because he won't be in today after Lalo shot him and Saul calling Cinnabon to do the same thing after being arrested.  Very scrupulous managers these felons.

[millennium]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

If he suggested murder my opinion changes. I don't remember that. Would have to rewatch.

Saul would suggest Walt send them "to Belize," a euphemism for murder.   As I recall, he proposed that remedy for Badger, Jesse and Skylar.

[scenario]

35 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

And they were both on free channels, you didn't have to pay for a streaming service. 

In my part of the country they were on cable tv which we had to pay for. 

[PeterPirate]

Pretty extensive list of easter eggs and other details in the episode.  

Number 5 was particularly helpful, pointing out the second image in the opening credits was the dough mixer in the prison kitchen.  I couldn't tell myself from watching the credits.  I have never frozen the screen during the credits because they reminded me too much of The Ring, and I've been afraid Samara was going to  

[MBayGal]

A really nice review from NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/16/1117671911/better-call-saul-finale-soars-as-a-meditation-on-consequences-and-regret?origin=NOTIFY

[millennium]

I think the ending became obvious the moment Saul heard that Kim could be civilly liable.   I never considered for a moment that Saul would sell out Kim for any price, let alone ice cream. 

In many ways, her exile to "yup" land seems worse than Saul's punishment.

[SimplexFish]

3 hours ago, scenario said:

If I'm remembering correctly the Mexican Government declared Lalo dead and that was proved beyond a reasonable doubt by  dental records.

Kim's confession said that Lalo killed Howard. If they are going to prosecute Kim, wouldn't they need to prove that Lalo was alive at that time. And that would involve international law. 

It seems that that would be an impediment in prosecuting Kim criminally. 

If I'm remembering correctly the Mexican Government declared Lalo dead and that was proved beyond a reasonable doubt by fake dental records.

[SimplexFish]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Also, who really did most of the money laundering for Walter White?  Skylar White, not Saul Goodman.  But, apparently, she got a deal and stayed out of prison. 

Didn't Walt give her the coordinates to where Hank and Gomez were buried in the desert to use as bargaining power to stay out of jail?

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

They sure made it like he was at Cinnabon a pretty long time.  That's a lot to pack into two months, plus why would he be that fast to jump into another con game?  I could see it happening after a couple of years went by and he was bored and depressed with his life, but after less than two months?  You would think that he would still be laying very low at this point.

Because Jimmy can't help himself.

10 hours ago, SoTheresThat said:

I believe he could testify, but would be disbarred for violating attorney client privilege.

Any information he got from his clients wouldn't be allowed in a courtroom because of attorney/client privilege unless he was part of a criminal conspiracy with his clients.

So he could testify against Walt, Jesse, Skylar (although she got her deal first)...etc. because they were all involved in it together.  But he couldn't testify against criminals he simply represented and whose crimes he didn't cover up or facilitate. 

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

A political DA agrees to a deal that would create a political firestorm?

I don't think many people would pay attention to the lawyer of Heisenburg.  They threw a lot of charges at Jimmy but he's pretty removed from most of the violence, death, meth making....etc.  Jesse would be the big get.  People don't get excited for the money guy.

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm 50-50 on the idea of having a post-BCS movie for Kim.  Maybe things are better left to the imagination.  

I think Jesse's the one with story left to tell.  He's still technically on the run and a wanted man.  And he's the one who truly found a conscious.  Jimmy I think was largely about getting Kim back.  I think Kim is still a little too drawn to and protective of Jimmy considering she visits him in jail and even told Cheryl something to the effect of "if he's alive" even though she knew he was. 

I'd get a kick out of seeing jailhouse lawyer Jimmy. 

And I know it's probably unpopular but I do want to know what becomes of Skylar and Walt Jr.

[Adiba]

I thought the ending was okay/ good and it satisfied me as a viewer that Jimmy finally took some accountability for his actions. He deserved jail time— I don’t know that he deserved 86 years, but I am not that familiar with the criminal justice system and RICO offenses. But it the end, it really didn’t matter to me if the sentencing was technically accurate— just that he got a long jail sentence was enough.

What I am not comfortable with is a reading of Jimmy/ Saul/Gene as three separate persons and that their (his) actions and choices were solely reactions to others’ treatment of him. Jimmy was “Slippin’ Jimmy” and a scammer in his youth, well before the days of HHM and probably while Chuck was still in law school. That scamming blueprint was part of his nature already.

I mean, who shits in someone’s sunroof because they owed him money? At the time Chuck came to bail Jimmy out of jail for this, he had been estranged from his family for six years. Jimmy was his mother’s favorite and his father was a nice guy (maybe too nice) — so he didn’t grow up abused or neglected.

Jimmy’s confession was for Kim, primarily. If Kim hadn’t come to the sentencing, would he have still confessed?

[Colorado David]

i'd love to see a series where walt jr becomes a minor kingpin in his own right.

[SimplexFish]

Just now, Colorado David said:

i'd love to see a series where walt jr becomes a minor kingpin in his own right.

Teamed up with Price!

[Colorado David]

walt jr and skinny pete. imagine the conversations!

Edited August 17, 2022 by Colorado David

[MBayGal]

2 hours ago, scenario said:

3 hours ago, MBayGal said:

And they were both on free channels, you didn't have to pay for a streaming service. 

In my part of the country they were on cable tv which we had to pay for. 

Oh that's right!  I've had cable for so long, I forgot that.  At least they were on Basic Cable, which back then was fairly cheap.  

[scenario]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

If I'm remembering correctly the Mexican Government declared Lalo dead and that was proved beyond a reasonable doubt by fake dental records.

That actually was the point of my post. The dental records weren't fake though. They were the dental records of the dead man. The dead man wasn't Lalo though. But once the government says that Lalo is dead and proven dead, they are going to be very reluctant to admit they are wrong since he hasn't been seen by anyone for years. 

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I think Jesse's the one with story left to tell.  He's still technically on the run and a wanted man.  And he's the one who truly found a conscious.  Jimmy I think was largely about getting Kim back. 

Jesse ran off so he wouldn't go to prison for any of his crimes. I don't see how he found a conscience where Jimmy, who confessed to his crimes including ones that weren't illegal, didn't. Jesse feeling bad about getting people killed that he himself wanted to be with isn't much different from Jimmy wanting Kim back, and Jesse never had to do any soul searching for them. 

[scenario]

50 minutes ago, Adiba said:

I thought the ending was okay/ good and it satisfied me as a viewer that Jimmy finally took some accountability for his actions. He deserved jail time— I don’t know that he deserved 86 years, but I am not that familiar with the criminal justice system and RICO offenses. But it the end, it really didn’t matter to me if the sentencing was technically accurate— just that he got a long jail sentence was enough.

What I am not comfortable with is a reading of Jimmy/ Saul/Gene as three separate persons and that their (his) actions and choices were solely reactions to others’ treatment of him. Jimmy was “Slippin’ Jimmy” and a scammer in his youth, well before the days of HHM and probably while Chuck was still in law school. That scamming blueprint was part of his nature already.

I mean, who shits in someone’s sunroof because they owed him money? At the time Chuck came to bail Jimmy out of jail for this, he had been estranged from his family for six years. Jimmy was his mother’s favorite and his father was a nice guy (maybe too nice) — so he didn’t grow up abused or neglected.

Jimmy’s confession was for Kim, primarily. If Kim hadn’t come to the sentencing, would he have still confessed?

Jimmy/Saul/Gene is one person at three different points in his live. It's like comparing a person at 20,40 and 60 years old, or a person whose gone through a major change in life and changed dramatically. The wild kid in college who gets married, has kids and is now a respected stockbroker sort of thing.

They are the same person but they are noticeably different in ways. Jimmy was bad but salvageable. Saul only wanted money and behaved much worse than Jimmy. Jimmy in the beginning of season 1 wouldn't casually consider killing someone. And Gene was a very bitter and angry man who looked to be capable of doing anything, no matter how evil. 

[Dianaofthehunt]

No hint where the diamonds came from. Chekhov would not approve.

[SimplexFish]

No explanation of what came of the Kettleman's or how Saul got their blow up Lady Liberty

[Eulipian 5k]

5 hours ago, Guy Incognito said:

It was always cash. There is literally no way to connect his money to Walter White.

That's my point. There isn't a ton of evidence out there that really connects Saul to Walt.

Try depositing $1M cash into the bank and see how fast you will be required to prove it was not illegally gotten. And your #1 client runs a multimillion dollar cash business? You will have to reconcile your income tax returns with owning a golden throne for the next 86 years. He’s Walt’s business lawyer, set up his corporations…. = RICO! Take it all. It was the Seas. 6 opener.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

No hint where the diamonds came from. Chekhov would not approve.

Why would we need a hint about that? Saul at some point used his tons of money to buy diamonds because he thought they were a good way to have something valuable when he needed it. Chekhov says absolutely nothing about needing to know where and from who the owner of the gun you're hanging over the fireplace on stage in Act 1 bought it. He just wants it fired in Act 4.

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think convincing Kim and unburdening his conscience are inextricably linked. 

Yes, but the first part was consistent with Jimmy's character, and the second part was not.  Consistency is kinda important to me.