S06.E13: Saul Gone

[Simon Boccanegra]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

It was more than two months, because the end of Breaking Bad overlaps with Gene's time in Omaha. Walt and Saul use the Disappearer circa March 2010, so it's more like eight months.

10 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

I checked the Breaking Bad wiki and it states that Vince Gilligan put Walt's time in New Hampshire at six months. He and Gene went into hiding at the same time, so that's a base of at least six months in Omaha.

Thanks, both. It had slipped my mind that Saul exited Breaking Bad with a fair amount of time on the clock.

Saul availed himself of the Disappearer's services in spring 2010, and the mall heist was going on in October of that year, with Marion initiating the arrest in December.

Now I wonder how far forward in time we went in "Saul Gone" with the sentencing, Jimmy acclimating to life in Montrose, Kim's visit. I don't think all of that could still have been in the same month. I took her somewhat different look in the prison visit to mean some amount of time had elapsed. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Yes, but the first part was consistent with Jimmy's character, and the second part was not.  Consistency is kinda important to me.  

In this case, I think the inconsistency was the point, wasn't it? He was doing what he'd avoided for his whole life, practically.

[PeterPirate]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In this case, I think the inconsistency was the point, wasn't it? He was doing what he'd avoided for his whole life, practically.

It depends on what one is looking for.  In the thread for the previous episode I posted this:  

On 8/15/2022 at 8:13 AM, PeterPirate said:

A pretty good essay about the show.  I really like the part about how an ending does not need to be a surprise to be good.  

So for me the most important thing was that Jimmy did what he been doing all six seasons:  Whatever he needed to do to connect with Kim.  And since she came clean, he had to come clean as well.  

[Arkay]

I liked some parts, disliked others, and suspended disbelief for this finale.

In the early seasons, with Chuck, I did love this show, but after that I was less intrigued and a little bored at times.

I liked Jimmy McGill, but it’s true that even back when he had a heart, he was still part Slippin’ Jimmy. I did think he loved Chuck and he did do all those chores for him, trying to get his love reciprocated. 

Jimmy did truly try to help his elderly clients.

But, of course, as Saul Goodman, he was a criminal lawyer, and it makes sense to me that his future is life in prison.

Gene in my opinion was the worst…a true wolf in sheep’s clothing, and maybe seconds away from strangling Marion.

So what happens to Jeffy? Do we know? 

[aghst]

On 8/15/2022 at 7:26 PM, PeterPirate said:

I love this ending.  Saul became Jimmy again, and he sacrificed himself for Kim.  

And Walter White sacrificed himself for his family and Jesse.

A pattern?

Does Gilligan want people to accept Jesus as their Savior or something?

There's a distinct whiff of fan service in the air.  People who do bad things -- break bad -- must go out doing one Good Thing, admit they were bad and accept punishment.

OK, even if Jimmy wanted to do good and make good with Kim, I don't see him leaning into 86 years.

Prison for the rest of your life so your ex-wife thinks well of you again?

Gilligan and Gould have been out in New Mexico too long.

[Dev F]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In this case, I think the inconsistency was the point, wasn't it? He was doing what he'd avoided for his whole life, practically.

Exactly. Jimmy spent his whole life tormented by regret, by the idea that if he could only go back and change that one thing he didn't like about himself, he could be happy with who he was. But every scheme to fix that one problem just created two more problems, a chain of regrets leading all the way back to his original sin: "So you were always like this." And yet he stubbornly remained on the same doomed path as most of the characters this season, convinced that if he just kept scheming, kept building a new version of himself on top of the old new version of himself, he'd eventually be free.

"See, you build it too high, your marble's gonna run off the track."
"It's not finished. When it's finished, it'll work."

What Jimmy finally realized at the end of the season is the same thing Nacho realized at the beginning: You can't scheme your way to the end, because then the scheming never ends. As long as you keep running from who you are and what you've done, you're just building the tower higher and higher until you inevitably careen off the track. Jimmy's ending has a chance of bringing him peace for the same reason Nacho's did: because it actually is an ending. He's not looking for a way to rewrite his destiny and come out on top. He's just going to own who he is and accept the consequences.

"Jimmy, you are always down," Kim once snapped at him. Now he's down about as far as a man can be. But he chose to be there, made peace with being there. When the alternative was plummeting there from rickety heights of his own creation, that counts as a happy ending.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, aghst said:

And Walter White sacrificed himself for his family and Jesse.

Spoiler

It's been a long while since I watched the end of BB, but I don't remember feeling like Walt sacrificed himself for anybody. He left the world the way he wanted to leave it, knowing he was dying, granting things to those he chose to favor. In his family's case because they were his family and therefore he took care of them and in Jesse's case (Jesse being another quasi son) because he recognized Jesse had not, in fact, bested him. He asserted his power until the end.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

And Walter White sacrificed himself for his family and Jesse.

A pattern?

Does Gilligan want people to accept Jesus as their Savior or something?

There's a distinct whiff of fan service in the air.  People who do bad things -- break bad -- must go out doing one Good Thing, admit they were bad and accept punishment.

OK, even if Jimmy wanted to do good and make good with Kim, I don't see him leaning into 86 years.

Prison for the rest of your life so your ex-wife thinks well of you again?

Gilligan and Gould have been out in New Mexico too long.

Sacrificing oneself for one's family is not an exclusively Christian concept.  There are many cultures that teach duty to family as the prime directive.  If anything, the Christian message teaches followers to leave their families if necessary to remain true to the faith.  

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Exactly. Jimmy spent his whole life tormented by regret, by the idea that if he could only go back and change that one thing he didn't like about himself, he could be happy with who he was. But every scheme to fix that one problem just created two more problems, a chain of regrets leading all the way back to his original sin: "So you were always like this." And yet he stubbornly remained on the same doomed path as most of the characters this season, convinced that if he just kept scheming, kept building a new version of himself on top of the old new version of himself, he'd eventually be free.

"See, you build it too high, your marble's gonna run off the track."
"It's not finished. When it's finished, it'll work."

What Jimmy finally realized at the end of the season is the same thing Nacho realized at the beginning: You can't scheme your way to the end, because then the scheming never ends. As long as you keep running from who you are and what you've done, you're just building the tower higher and higher until you inevitably careen off the track. Jimmy's ending has a chance of bringing him peace for the same reason Nacho's did: because it actually is an ending. He's not looking for a way to rewrite his destiny and come out on top. He's just going to own who he is and accept the consequences.

"Jimmy, you are always down," Kim once snapped at him. Now he's down about as far as a man can be. But he chose to be there, made peace with being there. When the alternative was plummeting there from rickety heights of his own creation, that counts as a happy ending.

From my point of view Jimmy did scheme his way to the end.  He first maneuvered his way to a 7-year sentence, but then concocted a scheme that ended up getting him 86 years.  In return he showed the love of his life that he was the same person she had known before, and also made sure they could never come together and poison each other's life.  

To put it another way, suppose Saul walks into the sentencing hearing and Kim is not there.  Does he still change his allocutions story?  I highly doubt it.  If Kim isn't there he takes the 7 years.  

Edited August 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[millennium]

22 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

To put it another way, suppose Saul walks into the sentencing hearing and Kim is not there.  Does he still change his allocutions story?  I highly doubt it.  If Kim isn't there he takes the 7 years. 

No question.

It occurs to me I'll probably never rewatch this show.   I have seen Breaking Bad from start to finish 3 or 4 times (skipping Fly all but the first time).  But this?   No.   All I ever wanted from BCS was to know more about Breaking Bad's pre-history and aftermath (satisfied by the former, very disappointed by the latter).  There is nothing compelling about Jimmy's story to make me watch the six seasons all over again.    

[stewedsquash]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

I noticed a parallel between Gus Fring calling the worker at Pollos Hermanos and leaving instructions because he won't be in today after Lalo shot him and Saul calling Cinnabon to do the same thing after being arrested.  Very scrupulous managers these felons.

I thought I was the only one who noticed that. What I first thought when Saul called in to work was he was somehow going to be able to get in touch with the vacuum cleaner disappear-er guy right under the noses of those listening in on the call. 

I saw the emotions portrayed with the hand holding during the cigarette scene and I don't think this show would have worked without these two being so in tune with each other acting wise.

I am in the middle of Everybody's Fool/Richard Russo and will have to check out Straight Man so I can get a jump on Odenkirk's next series. Going now to find out what Giancarlo's Parish will be about.

[Simon Boccanegra]

2 hours ago, stewedsquash said:

I am in the middle of Everybody's Fool/Richard Russo and will have to check out Straight Man so I can get a jump on Odenkirk's next series. Going now to find out what Giancarlo's Parish will be about.

I read Straight Man around the time it was published, and I think it's an inspired choice for an open-ended television series in the 2020s. A satire of life in the academic world will be even more fruitful ground now than it was in the late '90s, and Odenkirk seems like perfect casting for the central role.

Now I just want to know who's going to play "Orshee." (A male colleague of the protagonist's, who replies "Or she!" any time someone says "he.") 

[gallimaufry]

5 hours ago, aghst said:

There's a distinct whiff of fan service in the air.  People who do bad things -- break bad -- must go out doing one Good Thing, admit they were bad and accept punishment.

I mean, 86 years isa. pretty big one Good Thing.

5 hours ago, aghst said:

OK, even if Jimmy wanted to do good and make good with Kim, I don't see him leaning into 86 years.

Prison for the rest of your life so your ex-wife thinks well of you again?

I don't think he did it for Kim although I do think he wanted Kim to see and to know that he wasn't the man she feared he had become - and perhaps also he wanted Kim to be there to help him stick the landing.  I think he did it for Chuck and he did it for himself because he fears that he would always revert back to the grift and he's actually (as the 7 years shows) really good at it.

[gallimaufry]

7 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think Jesse's the one with story left to tell.  He's still technically on the run and a wanted man. 

I could see a Jesse spin-off absolutely working and I think even absent any BB connection, having Aaron Paul be a fugitive in Alaska trying to make a new life for himself but struggling with the demons of his past sounds like a great TV show pitch.  But the problem with the concept is that there are really only three endings I foresee: either he gets captured and put in prison (which is the BCS ending), or he dies (the BB ending) or he stays free which is the ending he already got at the end of "El Camino" (and BB).  I don't think anyone would want to see Jesse dying or in prison and having him stay free feels like calling the show "Chekhov's gun" and not firing a bullet.

Whereas I do think Kim has a forward trajectory.  Her reputation is destroyed.  Her life is in pieces.  Her past is murky.  Her future is uncertain.  She has noble goals but a dark side.  I think she has a lot more potential.

That said, I didn't think "El Camino" was a success overall and while it certainly wasn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, I don't think it really added anything of tremendous value to BB.  I don't know that I'd want a Kim movie that was harmless and disposable fanservice.  In fact, I'm not really sure I want movies in this universe at all - at minimum, a mini-series.  But once Rhea, Peter Gould, Vince Gilligan and even other Kim writers like Cherkis and Hutchison are all on different shows and contractually unavailable the odds of a series become quite remote.  So I'm not sure I see it happening.  And I don't think by any means it needs to happen.  But I do think after this ending there's a lot more potential with it than I would have suspected even a few days ago.

7 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

And I know it's probably unpopular but I do want to know what becomes of Skylar and Walt Jr.

I kind of agree, although I'm happy that we got an indication that she did get her deal in 612.  As for Walt Jr, I think we have to assume that Walt's plan worked and he and Holly ended up financially secure.  I worry that revisiting them would only tarnish that ending.

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, Dev F said:

What Jimmy finally realized at the end of the season is the same thing Nacho realized at the beginning: You can't scheme your way to the end, because then the scheming never ends. As long as you keep running from who you are and what you've done, you're just building the tower higher and higher until you inevitably careen off the track. Jimmy's ending has a chance of bringing him peace for the same reason Nacho's did: because it actually is an ending. He's not looking for a way to rewrite his destiny and come out on top. He's just going to own who he is and accept the consequences.

I can never see Nacho's end as bringing him peace. He tried until the end to get his father to go to Canada with him but he refused. He "accepted" his consequences because there was no other way, and chose suicide to spare himself torture. If it had been possible I have no doubt he would have taken the route of going with his father as far away as he could. His choice to try and kill Hector, be busted by Fring and all that came from that sealed his doom. His father is apparently safe but he had no assurance of that except whatever Mike said. I think trying to rewrite his destiny would have been preferable to what actually happened.

[BetyBee]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:26 PM, PeterPirate said:

I love this ending.  Saul became Jimmy again, and he sacrificed himself for Kim.  

I love the ending too, but one thing bothers me. In court, Saul became Jimmy again. But on the prisoner bus, he realized that that wasn't going to fly in prison. We are shown him being called Saul in prison by the guard and by the other fist bumping prisoners. I don't think he's Jimmy in prison and he will certainly be influenced by bad characters there. So while I'm glad he'll be fairly happy in prison, he'll surely be scamming in no time. Therefore, the return of Jimmy was brief and mostly for Kim's benefit. I think he's Saul for the next 86* years!

*possibly with time off for good behavior! 😉

[gallimaufry]

9 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I love the ending too, but one thing bothers me. In court, Saul became Jimmy again. But on the prisoner bus, he realized that that wasn't going to fly in prison. We are shown him being called Saul in prison by the guard and by the other fist bumping prisoners. I don't think he's Jimmy in prison and he will certainly be influenced by bad characters there. So while I'm glad he'll be fairly happy in prison, he'll surely be scamming in no time. Therefore, the return of Jimmy was brief and mostly for Kim's benefit. I think he's Saul for the next 86* years!

*possibly with time off for good behavior! 😉

I see it more that it's the inverse of the situation it's always been.  James McGill was always looked down upon as Slipping Jimmy so he created Saul Goodman who people would look up to.  But Slipping Jimmy wasn't who he was at his heart and nor is Saul now.

One thing I really liked about the teaser to this finale was that it made sense of Jimmy's relationship with money.  I've always been puzzled as to why money seems such a big deal to Jimmy when his life with Kim is the very opposite of lavish.  Granted, a lot of this is clearly Kim's influence as he is pushing for Chuck to get more money, is clearly tempted by the Kettleman's haul, tries to win Kim back by showing her a fancy house and of course takes money from the cartel.  

Peter Gould said in an interview recently that he sees the money as a way to "keep score" more than anything which makes sense but I really liked the idea presented in the teaser here that money is a way for Jimmy to try to make himself untouchable.  If he can just earn enough,  he'll have everyone's respect and he'll never have to worry about, for example, losing his office with Kim again.  It's a delusion and he seems to know it even then.  But it does make more sense to me of what is, on the quiet, the most drastic and consequential "break bad" of the entire show which is his decision to take Lalo's bagman job when Lalo did offer him an out.  

(Granted, how much you could rely on Lalo to keep his word would be in question but there's at least a decent chance he would have seen Saul as useful enough to keep around even if he couldn't be used as a bagman.)

One other thing I just realised...

Saul's 7 year term would have started in 2010 which means if he'd accepted, he would be out five years ago in real terms.  This means they could probably have got away with an ending where he serves a 7 year term as an unreformed Saul and still shown more story with Jimmy and Kim after.  However, I think it's fair to say that there would never have been as good or as just an opportunity to seek to make amends for his crimes than via prison so I think it was the right choice.

Another moment I like is during his confession where Saul gives a look to the prosecutor who gives him a look back of almost grudging respect - he knows this guy has run rings around him but is now doing the right thing.  Super performances.  The judge in that scene was perfect too.

[Lalo Lives]

On 8/16/2022 at 11:23 PM, sistermagpie said:

In this case, I think the inconsistency was the point, wasn't it? He was doing what he'd avoided for his whole life, practically.

Bingo.

On 8/16/2022 at 11:58 PM, aghst said:

And Walter White sacrificed himself for his family and Jesse.

A pattern?

Does Gilligan want people to accept Jesus as their Savior or something?

There's a distinct whiff of fan service in the air.  People who do bad things -- break bad -- must go out doing one Good Thing, admit they were bad and accept punishment.

OK, even if Jimmy wanted to do good and make good with Kim, I don't see him leaning into 86 years.

Prison for the rest of your life so your ex-wife thinks well of you again?

Gilligan and Gould have been out in New Mexico too long.

I’d do that for my wife.

***

Got a notification and need to clear things up.

IT DOES NOT MATTER what I think, but I may have misread what was written and ALSO created motivation for Jimmy based on my interpretation of Jimmy's actions.

My thought was that at least ONE of his reasons for doing what he did was to KEEP KIM OUT of the slammer.

That is what I meant when I said I'd "lean into" 86 years for my wife.

I think a lot of husbands would do that. And wives too.

I wouldn't do it just so she'd think I was a swell guy. So maybe I'm a jerk.

Keep her out of prison? Yes. Give me 86.

Keep her alive. Yes. Give me 86.

Make her think I'm super cool and wonderful. Nope. Not gonna do it.

So I'm confused.

Did Jimmy do what he did to ATONE only?

Did he do it so Kim thinks well of him?

Is it both?

Is it WAY more that that? Are there many reasons?

Gotta be.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Lalo Lives
Clarification

[Milburn Stone]

Count me in the "this finale was perfection" column, somehow combining tragic love story with tale of sin and redemption. 

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Count me in the "this finale was perfection" column, somehow combining tragic love story with tale of sin and redemption. 

Yes.  We just have to wait a few more days for Courtney to say we're right.  

3 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I love the ending too, but one thing bothers me. In court, Saul became Jimmy again. But on the prisoner bus, he realized that that wasn't going to fly in prison. We are shown him being called Saul in prison by the guard and by the other fist bumping prisoners. I don't think he's Jimmy in prison and he will certainly be influenced by bad characters there. So while I'm glad he'll be fairly happy in prison, he'll surely be scamming in no time. Therefore, the return of Jimmy was brief and mostly for Kim's benefit. I think he's Saul for the next 86* years!

*possibly with time off for good behavior! 😉

That would make for a good show.  

I also wonder if Kim could end up in a legal version of Remington Steele.  She's the genius paralegal who can never become a lawyer and writes brilliant motions, and she works for a Howard Hamlin type who treats her well but always gets the credit.  

Edited August 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Sailorgirl26]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

And Walter White sacrificed himself for his family and Jesse.

A pattern?

Does Gilligan want people to accept Jesus as their Savior or something?

There's a distinct whiff of fan service in the air.  People who do bad things -- break bad -- must go out doing one Good Thing, admit they were bad and accept punishment.

OK, even if Jimmy wanted to do good and make good with Kim, I don't see him leaning into 86 years.

Prison for the rest of your life so your ex-wife thinks well of you again?

Gilligan and Gould have been out in New Mexico too long.

Wow, do I feel the opposite. 

The overarching message here is not one of atonement but acceptance of personal responsibility. That's not doing "One Good Thing." Its being a decent human being with emotional intelligence. 

Walt definitely didn't sacrifice himself for his family and Jesse--quite the opposite. He acknowledged that it wasn't for the family -- after years of insisting it was. He ultimately admitted it was for himself -- he took that responsibility. He was an arrogant dick about it, but he did it. 

Jimmy didn't sacrifice himself for Kim. This was Jimmy finally acknowledging and taking responsibility for the consequences of his actions. He had no idea whether Kim would forgive him or not. 

Haven't we all done really stupid or self-destructive stuff? Fortunately, few of us have broken bad to the extent of becoming a meth kingpin or money-laundering criminal lawyer, but point me to someone who hasn't made at least a few really bad choices when they could have made different ones.

We can blame others for "forcing" us to the point of doing what we did, make excuses trying to justify why we did what we did, and so on, but there comes a point where, to be able to move on and/or find closure, we have to admit our part in it and accept that we are in fact the kind of person who might not always do the right thing. That we are ultimately responsible for our own actions.

Its that whole "consequences of our actions" thing people seem to struggle with so much these days. . . 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Sailorgirl26

[SusieQ]

8 hours ago, stewedsquash said:

I thought I was the only one who noticed that. What I first thought when Saul called in to work was he was somehow going to be able to get in touch with the vacuum cleaner disappear-er guy right under the noses of those listening in on the call. 

I saw the emotions portrayed with the hand holding during the cigarette scene and I don't think this show would have worked without these two being so in tune with each other acting wise.

I am in the middle of Everybody's Fool/Richard Russo and will have to check out Straight Man so I can get a jump on Odenkirk's next series. Going now to find out what Giancarlo's Parish will be about.

Funny you say this-- I put the Russo book! on hold at my library!

[Starchild]

10 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Now I wonder how far forward in time we went in "Saul Gone" with the sentencing, Jimmy acclimating to life in Montrose, Kim's visit. I don't think all of that could still have been in the same month. I took her somewhat different look in the prison visit to mean some amount of time had elapsed. 

I love the change in her hairstyle as dramatic shorthand for changes in her life. Presumably, since she had the courage to fake her way in to see him privately, those changes are positively enhacing her battered self-esteem. Like continuing to work at the legal free clinic. I think it's telling us that whatever happens, Kim will eventually be ok.

8 hours ago, millennium said:

No question.

It occurs to me I'll probably never rewatch this show.   I have seen Breaking Bad from start to finish 3 or 4 times (skipping Fly all but the first time).  But this?   No.   All I ever wanted from BCS was to know more about Breaking Bad's pre-history and aftermath (satisfied by the former, very disappointed by the latter).  There is nothing compelling about Jimmy's story to make me watch the six seasons all over again.    

Agree to disagree. I consider the quality of both shows to be on par. To me they feel like one show. I already own BB on Bluray, and I'm hoping this one will come out on HD disc as a full series as well. (So many shows seem to release only SD discs now.)

40 minutes ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Jimmy didn't sacrifice himself for Kim. This was Jimmy finally acknowledging and taking responsibility for the consequences of his actions. He had no idea whether Kim would forgive him or not. 

This was like a call-and-response. Two miserable creatures who lost each other in a dark forest, seeking to come back together.

Kim's confession, her call, told Jimmy what he needed to do to make it right with her. He set up a situation that would have her witness his response (perhaps she would have been subpoenaed if she hadn't come willingly).

And then, he confessed to things she didn't even know about (assuming he never told her about Chuck's insurance thing). She knew then he was sincere, and they came back together (as much as they could).

[PeterPirate]

15 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I looked at the cuts to Kim again, and she definitely softened in that last shot. Very subtle, but she absolutely did.

I've looked at it the scene several times, and I can't make a call either way.  The last shots are zoom in on Jimmy, followed by a close-up of Kim.  They don't cut back to Jimmy to see his reaction.  Kim did lower her chin slightly in that last close-up.  

I took that as deliberately ambiguous.  For me the real payoff was when Kim visited Jimmy the last time.  That scene was absolutely spectacular.  Rhea Seehorn should adopt that hairstyle full-time.  

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, scenario said:

Jimmy/Saul/Gene is one person at three different points in his live. It's like comparing a person at 20,40 and 60 years old, or a person whose gone through a major change in life and changed dramatically. The wild kid in college who gets married, has kids and is now a respected stockbroker sort of thing.

They are the same person but they are noticeably different in ways. Jimmy was bad but salvageable. Saul only wanted money and behaved much worse than Jimmy. Jimmy in the beginning of season 1 wouldn't casually consider killing someone. And Gene was a very bitter and angry man who looked to be capable of doing anything, no matter how evil. 

We are all like this, different people at different times in our lives, or different people when we're with different people. But of course each of us is just one person. Jimmy/Saul/Gene was always Jimmy. Those other personas were just suits he put on, as we saw in the bit (what do you call it?) where the camera pans past the different jackets and shirts of his life.

When Walt says to him, "So you were always like this," he could have been talking about himself. In the NPR review linked to earlier, Peter Gould recounts talking to Gilligan years ago:

Quote

What if, he suggested, you saw the story as slowly revealing something about Walter White that was already there? Perhaps what's really happening is that all the things in society which kept him in check are slowly falling away, and he's flowering into the controlling, ruthless narcissist he always was at his core?

Jimmy always had scamming in his blood as well as a good heart, as did Saul, as did Gene.

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

When Walt says to him, "So you were always like this," he could have been talking about himself. In the NPR review linked to earlier, Peter Gould recounts talking to Gilligan years ago:

I do not see it that way...I think Walt was always a straight laced, hard working family man, maybe not too far removed from Yup Yup. It was the money and the power that eventually changed him.

Edited August 17, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

He tried until the end to get his father to go to Canada with him but he refused. He "accepted" his consequences because there was no other way, and chose suicide to spare himself torture. If it had been possible I have no doubt he would have taken the route of going with his father as far away as he could. His choice to try and kill Hector, be busted by Fring and all that came from that sealed his doom.

Nacho's only hope was to leave the cartel life as his father said. There are many people like his father who don't have to run to Canada to live; just stay away from that criminal life. In their first conversation it was clear that Nacho chose to go back to the life that threatened his father's business. Nacho made the same bad choice Jimmy did and couldn't get off that road.

Everybody who took "Bad Choice Road" in BrBa & BCS, is dead, including Kim Wexler & Saul Goodman, Attorneys at Law.

Hey!: Bob and Rhea have aged to where they can now play Kim & Jimmy 10 years into Saul's jail term! BCS, the Sequel! Featuring: Flynn White, Special Agent ASAC of the Albuquerque DEA, Francesca Liddy,Head of the MVD, Bill Oakley, Managing Partner, Oakley and Novick Law Firm, and Albuquerque Mayor Lyle.

[MamaBird]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:20 AM, millennium said:

P.S.  Marie looked great!  Think her suit was purple?

That's the first thing I thought when she walked in! "Too bad we're in black & white, we can't see if she's wearing a purple suit!"

[Eulipian 5k]

Seems we missed the "A Christmas Carol" allusions in the finale. And the genius of having the third ghost, Chuck, showing Jimmy what he can do with a Time Machine. Jimmy never said the words, but the book on the table showed what he finally found to fix his regrets.

[Simon Boccanegra]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Hey!: Bob and Rhea have aged to where they can now play Kim & Jimmy 10 years into Saul's jail term! BCS, the Sequel! Featuring: Flynn White, Special Agent ASAC of the Albuquerque DEA, Francesca Liddy, Head of the MVD, Bill Oakley, Managing Partner, Oakley and Novick Law Firm, and Albuquerque Mayor Lyle.

Don't forget all-grown-up Kaylee. Maybe she's followed her father and grandfather into a law-enforcement career.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Nacho's only hope was to leave the cartel life as his father said. There are many people like his father who don't have to run to Canada to live; just stay away from that criminal life. In their first conversation it was clear that Nacho chose to go back to the life that threatened his father's business. Nacho made the same bad choice Jimmy did and couldn't get off that road.

Agreed that his own choices dictated his end. He couldn't just leave the cartel once Gus figured out what he had done to Hector, it was too late by then, so running to another country with dad and identity change was a desperation move. My reply was about the thought that Nacho found peace at the end because it doesn't look very peaceful to me to know his life is ending and he really has no guarantee there won't be retaliation against his father after he's dead. Mike likes to protect innocents but he's not in charge.

[PeterPirate]

25 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Don't forget all-grown-up Kaylee. Maybe she's followed her father and grandfather into a law-enforcement career.

I want Holly to find her father's formula and get cooking again.  With Brock as her sidekick.  

"I did it for you, mommy!"  

[BC4ME]

I'm late to this discussion but I was wondering if anybody wanted to discuss the finger guns at the end and what the fact that she didn't return them meant. I'm not sure how to read her final look at him.

I kind of took it as his attempt to say, it was fun while it lasted, eh? To which she indicated that she didn't feel the same.

Or he was sort of asking, S'all good man? Like he wanted a sign from her (like returning the finger pistols) of approval, which I didn't see.

Or it was just his way of saying goodbye in a language they once shared but didn't anymore.

IDK. I guess just wanted her to return them. And I'm also hoping they would stay in contact in some capacity, although IDK what that would look like. Presumably she was free to go live the rest of her life, whereas his life would be constrained and almost frozen in time, even if not a bad life for him such that it was. She could marry again, try out different jobs and generally have opportunities to find happiness that would leave his world behind. But I'm still sad at the thought that this was it for them. I'm at peace with it. Just sad.

Edited August 17, 2022 by BC4ME

[Simon Boccanegra]

27 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

IDK. I guess just wanted her to return them.

Rhea talked about that in her EW interview.  

"Well, we shot a couple of different iterations —- including ones where she shoots finger guns back at him. It was very small and not animated or with a smile, but still — in the end, Peter decided that it looked too much like they were saying, "Kim is back in the game," and we really didn't want to give that impression. That moment between them, to me, is much more about the acknowledgement of their bond, that is still there, and the part of their relationship that was true. 

"It's very purposely left to interpretation of exactly like you said. Is this him just saying, "Man, we had a great run and it's okay"? Or is it him saying we're still great together. And we could still do something together. We could still legally do something together. [Laughs] I took it to mean that he was saying, "I still believe that we have a relationship." In whatever capacity that is. Even though the finger guns are representative of the beginning of this horrible downfall scam with Hamlin, for me, in the moment — because he does it in a very different way — it felt like, "There is still something great about us. Not everything about what we were together is bad. There's something great about the two of us together." And I took her look to him to be an acknowledgement that it's true, even though she's not ready to say what that means."

Edited August 17, 2022 by Simon Boccanegra

[stewedsquash]

[PeterPirate]

I don't like the idea of Kim and Jimmy spending any more time together.  It would be like Rick and Ilsa re-uniting after the war.  

Kim and Jimmy are poison together.  They need to stay apart for their own sake as well as others'.  

[dwmarch]

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I also wonder if Kim could end up in a legal version of Remington Steele.  She's the genius paralegal who can never become a lawyer and writes brilliant motions, and she works for a Howard Hamlin type who treats her well but always gets the credit.

You might enjoy a Canadian dramedy called Family Law, which has a similar setup. The main character (played by Jewel Staite of Firefly fame) is a disgraced alcoholic lawyer who has to take a job at her estranged father's family law firm.

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, BC4ME said:

I'm late to this discussion but I was wondering if anybody wanted to discuss the finger guns and the end and what the fact that she didn't return them meant. I'm not sure how to read her final look at him.

I kind of took it as his attempt to say, it was fun while it lasted, eh? To which she indicated that she didn't feel the same.

Or he was sort of asking, S'all good man? Like he wanted a sign from her (like returning the finger pistols) of approval, which I didn't see.

Or it was just his way of saying goodbye in a language they once shared but didn't anymore.

What's interesting is that this is the third consecutive season to end with the finger guns but before they have always been breaking points testing their relationship.

I took it that their bond was built around the scam and so this is how Jimmy expresses his love and affection in a way that cuts through words.  It's also kind of ironic since he's behind bars and has added decades to his sentence in the interest of reforming.  But it seems to acknowledge that spark.

For Kim, it wouldn't be appropriate to respond in that way but you can see in the nuances of Rhea's expressions that she appreciates the message and is heartened by it.  But she can't reciprocate as she's not that person any more.

What I thought was clever by not having her reciprocate is that you wanted her to reciprocate as a romantic gesture and yet it is absolutely right that it doesn't.  And for me, the first time I saw the episode I was still caught up in the moment of thinking she might turn back and reciprocate when I was almost jolted by the cut to black.  I think that was a perfect ending because it's so emblematic of Kim's feelings - Jimmy represents both genuine love and understanding as well as absolute chaos and those finger guns would not bode anything healthy for them.  But Jimmy knows she will walk away and Kim knows she must walk away and so it is both sad but also incredibly romantic.

1 hour ago, BC4ME said:

IDK. I guess just wanted her to return them. And I'm also hoping they would stay in contact in some capacity, although IDK what that would look like. Presumably she was free to go live the rest of her life, whereas his life would be constrained and almost frozen in time, even if not a bad life for him such that it was. She could marry again, try out different jobs and generally have opportunities to find happiness that would leave his world behind. But I'm still sad at the thought that this was it for them. I'm at peace with it. Just sad.

I prefer Rhea Seehorn's viewpoint that she would continue to visit.  I see no reason why she wouldn't even though I don't think she'd make a habit of sneaking him a cigarette.  However, I can also see a case to be made that she would never visit again and would need to get on with her own life outside Jimmy's orbit.  I feel like it's okay to read it either way.

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't like the idea of Kim and Jimmy spending any more time together.  It would be like Rick and Ilsa re-uniting after the war.  

Kim and Jimmy are poison together.  They need to stay apart for their own sake as well as others'.  

I don't actually think they are poison together so much as that Jimmy is poison and Kim got sucked into his way of thinking.  But if you list Jimmy's independent ventures against the ones he did with Kim I think she greatly reduced the chaos.  (And of course she begged him not to work for Lalo and it was that decision which ultimately blew things up for them).

However, I guess it comes down to whether or not you think Jimmy can ever change.

The Chuck view would be that he has this big show of remorse but he never learns long-term and will ultimately only hurt people.

The Mike view would be that even if you try to get off the bad choice road, sooner or later you're back on it again.

The more romantic view (and, I think, Kim's view) is that giving up his freedom was a realisation that he'd rather go back and try to make amends even if this means he is never free again than continue to make the same mistakes.

One thing I've been fascinated by is how many names Jimmy as.  If you include when he's referred to by his slogans we have at minimum:

Jimmy
Slipping Jimmy
James M. McGill, esquire
Jimmy McGill, A Lawyer You Can Trust
Gimme Jimmy
Saul Goodman
Saul Goodman, Speedy Justice for You
Better Call Saul
Gene Takovic

But only once to my recollection does he ever refer to himself as James McGill.  I do think this indicates the self-knowledge has stuck.

A separate thing I really like about the series as a whole is how meaningful and impactful Howard's death was.  

So often in television -- including on BB and BCS -- deaths are baked into the character's arc.  Nacho's death was a surprise and was sad but his life always foretold the possibility of this kind of ending.  Equally, there are lots of deaths which would have been huge and consequential to the people directly affected but we don't see or at least don't deeply experience that loss -- Fred from Travelwire.  And of course there are long-running shows where killing a character is a move or a product of a contract dispute or because the plot needs to move in a particular direction.  I suppose technically Howard's death falls into the final category but it really does feel more like... a kind of horrific and irrevocable thunderclap.

It just feels really rare to have a character who is as fully formed as Howard and then show the impact of his abrupt murder.  The only equivalent of this I can think of in drama is in probably Russell T Davies' best show (albeit not one of his more popular ones) where he really shows the vibrancy and variety and uniqueness and comedy and tragedy and whimsy of a character's life before their utterly abrupt and meaningless death.  The title of the show is spoilered because... well, almost all his work is terrific and the moment deserves to creep up on you but if you must know it's in...

Cucumber

But we knew Howard for a much longer time, flaws and all.  It felt like his character arc would veer in one direction and then suddenly, no.  There was just nothing in Howard's life that made it likely it would be abruptly cut short and because he was such a fleshed-out character for other reasons right to his final seconds, it feels somehow even more tragic.  And way that moment of off-hand cruelty from Lalo that we've seen so many times on BCS and BB in cartel stories suddenly had a home.  You could see the deep gut-wrenching impact on Kim and Jimmy, let alone Cheryl and Cliff and even Mike.

I think what particularly brought it home was how Bob Odenkirk portrayed Jimmy choking on Howard's name in court.  As many vile and terrible things as he's done since, the deep-seated trauma of that moment really hit home.

This is where I do kind of wish we'd got more of Howard all the way along.  I always thought he (and Nacho) were underserved, especially in seasons 4 and 5.  A full-on Howard episode showing his world and how he rebuilt his life after Chuck would have been amazing but I think even the pen portrait shown by his small appearances across Season 4 told a compelling story.

5 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

You might enjoy a Canadian dramedy called Family Law, which has a similar setup. The main character (played by Jewel Staite of Firefly fame) is a disgraced alcoholic lawyer who has to take a job at her estranged father's family law firm.

Thanks.  Sounds intriguing.  And I need to fill that BCS shaped void now!

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I love the ending too, but one thing bothers me. In court, Saul became Jimmy again. But on the prisoner bus, he realized that that wasn't going to fly in prison. We are shown him being called Saul in prison by the guard and by the other fist bumping prisoners. I don't think he's Jimmy in prison and he will certainly be influenced by bad characters there. So while I'm glad he'll be fairly happy in prison, he'll surely be scamming in no time. Therefore, the return of Jimmy was brief and mostly for Kim's benefit. I think he's Saul for the next 86* years!

*possibly with time off for good behavior! 😉

But Jimmy was a scammer too. He'd be under these influences regardless, but I think the fact that they see him as a criminal lawyer bodes well for him. That's where he can put his efforts and scemes.

4 hours ago, Starchild said:

This was like a call-and-response. Two miserable creatures who lost each other in a dark forest, seeking to come back together.

But in the end, they also brought out the best in each other. Saul's call made Kim confess; Saul then confessed after hearing about it. They don't have to be poison together.

3 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

I do not see it that way...I think Walt was always a straight laced, hard working family man, maybe not too far removed from Yup Yup. It was the money and the power that eventually changed him.

Walt walked away from Gray Matter because he was arrogant and thought he could do just as well or better on his own--the brilliant chemist. He was always that guy. In fact, a friend of mine had a good point when she said the one thing she could never buy in BB wasn't that when we meet him he's depressed and has sort of given up in life when she thought the guy he was earlier couldn't have waited that long to turn into the guy he was in BB. He was never Yup Yup and resented that the world saw him that way.

1 hour ago, BC4ME said:

I'm late to this discussion but I was wondering if anybody wanted to discuss the finger guns and the end and what the fact that she didn't return them meant. I'm not sure how to read her final look at him.

I loved the quote from RS on this, but just wanted to say I didn't read it as a rejection of him at all. He's in prison so can be jokier, but I thought she would feel worse about doing something playfully back because she's in the better position. It wouldn't follow from their previous conversation that she'd be rejecting him imo.

[Starchild]

I like to think of Jimmy's parting finger guns as him saying "don't worry about me, I'll be alright."

[gallimaufry]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But in the end, they also brought out the best in each other. Saul's call made Kim confess; Saul then confessed after hearing about it. They don't have to be poison together.

Ohhh, I love this.

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Walt walked away from Gray Matter because he was arrogant and thought he could do just as well or better on his own--the brilliant chemist. He was always that guy. In fact, a friend of mine had a good point when she said the one thing she could never buy in BB wasn't that when we meet him he's depressed and has sort of given up in life when she thought the guy he was earlier couldn't have waited that long to turn into the guy he was in BB. He was never Yup Yup and resented that the world saw him that way.

I agree.  Although I love BB, I do think there are some rocky parts to the early seasons and one of the big problems for me in terms of delivering on the premise of "Mr Chips to Scarface" is that I never ever saw any indication of a Mr Chips capacity in Walt.  He loved his subject but I never saw any indication that he was a great educator - his students were always presented as apathetic at best, lazy and disruptive at worst, and the only relationship he seems to have built with any of them was with Jesse, whom he instantly derided and sought to manipulate.  The scenes of him trying to teach Jesse are funny but also show he really doesn't communicate his subject effectively.  Nor, from his cold relationship with his wife to his dutiful relationship with his son and sigh-and-bear-it relationship with his brother-in-law do we see someone who actually seems to like people very much.  If it weren't for the fact that Walt was given the worst hand of cards anybody could be given in the pilot episode, I think there'd be precious little reason to find him sympathetic at all.

Not to say that what Vince did was bad or that he should have gone in a different direction - I recognise the Chips/Scarface elevator pitch was never meant to be a definitive summation of the show.  But if that was the intention, I never felt BB delivered on the first half of that.

3 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I like to think of Jimmy's parting finger guns as him saying "don't worry about me, I'll be alright."

Love this take too.

[Schweedie]

One of my absolute favourite things about the finale was that Saul took credit - not just blame, but *credit* - for Walt's whole drug empire thing. That's like the ultimate insult to Walt and his ego, like the writers gave him one last kick in the nuts all these years after the show ended. Because Saul probably had a point. Without him, Walt and Jesse wouldn't have been introduced to Mike or Gus - they might've ended up on their radar at some point given how high quality their meth was, but odds are Saul was right that they would've been dead or in prison long before that.

I hated that Walt basically got the best ending he could've hoped for in Felina, and I very much appreciated this little dig at his actual kingpin skills.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Schweedie

[Starchild]

Nice observation, Saul got his over Walt in the end. It's the only inside statement in the official record. I like it.

[Eulipian 5k]

9 hours ago, BetyBee said:

So while I'm glad he'll be fairly happy in prison, he'll surely be scamming in no time. Therefore, the return of Jimmy was brief and mostly for Kim's benefit. I think he's Saul for the next 86* years!

Jimmy "fell" for the Wolf who grifted his father. Outside that, he was adrift, as far as American Samoa. He trapped himself trying to deny Slippin Jimmy; trying to emulate his brother. He was as bored as Hilts, the Cooler King , bouncing his ball to pass the time in "prison". Saul freed him from that, Kim had "the time of her life" with him. He was never comfortable with the lawyers, trying to earn their respect. He is finally where he really belongs, where he is respected,he's all good man, where he is. Where he will be judged by his peers, only. The Wolves.

[TiredMe]

I liked the ending (with the exception of 80 plus years). I thought it was tragic sad and fitting.

[Neiman]

I streamed the episode last night and felt disappointed.  I'd rather see Saul dead or still on the run than how he ended up.  

[Dev F]

18 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

From my point of view Jimmy did scheme his way to the end.  He first maneuvered his way to a 7-year sentence, but then concocted a scheme that ended up getting him 86 years.  In return he showed the love of his life that he was the same person she had known before, and also made sure they could never come together and poison each other's life.

Yeah, what I probably should've said is, "You can't scheme your way to the end if the scheming never ends."  The issue isn't that schemes don't work—Gus, for instance, schemed his way out of Lalo's trap pretty effectively—but that you can't layer scheme on top of scheme in hopes of some perfect, transformative resolution down the road. That's what doomed Gus despite his victory: because even though he'd engineered the perfect ending for himself, he couldn't let it be the end, couldn't just lay down his burdens and become a successful businessman/kingpin with a hot sommelier boyfriend. He insisted on chasing a vengeance that had just almost killed him, until the whole thing literally blew up in his face.

Jimmy, on the other hand, hustles just enough to bring his story to an end. The point isn't that he learns not to be Slipping Jimmy anymore, it's that he accepts that he is Slipping Jimmy—and Saul, and Gene—and he'll only find peace if he stops trying so hard to be someone else.

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I can never see Nacho's end as bringing him peace. He tried until the end to get his father to go to Canada with him but he refused. He "accepted" his consequences because there was no other way, and chose suicide to spare himself torture. If it had been possible I have no doubt he would have taken the route of going with his father as far away as he could. His choice to try and kill Hector, be busted by Fring and all that came from that sealed his doom. His father is apparently safe but he had no assurance of that except whatever Mike said. I think trying to rewrite his destiny would have been preferable to what actually happened.

Nacho spent most of the series trying to rewrite his destiny, pretending to be someone he wasn't and betraying everyone around him in pursuit of a goal that was never going to happen, because his father was never going to give up his business and start a new life regardless of the danger. Accepting all of the cartel's anger to keep it from blowing back on his dad was the only thing he could do.

And the series could've presented that as a pointless tragedy, but it conspicuously didn't. While everyone else is analogized to a little girl building doomed marble towers that climb too high, Nacho's death nourishes a flower that grows tall and beautiful in the desert rain. His actions are shown to be not futile but successful: the only thing he could do for his father ends up saving his father. Because he accepts the violent end he deserves, Manuel doesn't have to face the violent end he doesn't.

[Adiba]

 @Dev F said:

Quote

Jimmy, on the other hand, hustles just enough to bring his story to an end. The point isn't that he learns not to be Slipping Jimmy anymore, it's that he accepts that he is Slipping Jimmy—and Saul, and Gene—and he'll only find peace if he stops trying so hard to be someone else.

I agree and was trying to say something similar in a previous post. Jimmy is Saul and Gene— those parts of him may have been subdued temporarily, but they did not disappear. No doubt he will keep scheming in prison to various degrees.

[Cinnabon]

On 8/15/2022 at 10:54 PM, Penman61 said:

Viewers who expected a BB-style mega-shootout for this finale: lol what show have you been watching for 6 seasons?

THANK YOU. Good lord. 🤦‍♀️

[Cinnabon]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:54 AM, ahmerali said:

Well, I'm glad she feels better. /s

Other than Jimmy, for whom is that satisfying? I really do NOT get it.

For me and many others. 🤷‍♀️

[Cinnabon]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:52 PM, sistermagpie said:

Jesse ran off so he wouldn't go to prison for any of his crimes. I don't see how he found a conscience where Jimmy, who confessed to his crimes including ones that weren't illegal, didn't. Jesse feeling bad about getting people killed that he himself wanted to be with isn't much different from Jimmy wanting Kim back, and Jesse never had to do any soul searching for them. 

THIS. Jesse shot someone in the head, FFS. he doesn’t deserve to be free.