S03.E10: Future Unknown

[Mr. R0b0t]

I honest to dog thought they were hearing Charly's voice.  Loved the white dress uniforms they wore at the ceremony.  This show may not have a perfect hit rate, but deserves more seasons.  I wonder if Ed asking Kelly what she would do as captain was a bit of foreshadowing his departure if the show does come back. 

[ketose]

I looked up the actress who played Lysella and thought "oh, she was a vampire on Legacies." Then again, "Majority Rule" aired almost 5 years ago and she was on Legacies last season.

I'm a little less hopeful on more seasons of Orville. This was kind of a vanity project for MacFarlane and Fox would have given him anything for more Family Guy. Now that it's part of the Disney empire, I think it's headed into the sunset.

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 hours ago, Meushell said:

Isaac inviting the entire planet and not telling anyone is so Isaac. Why did Claire seem to get angry at him though? The “they won’t all fit” could have been said without the anger. Claire, you have nearly an entire planet coming to see your wedding. You should be happy that they clearly take this marriage as seriously as you do.

I don't think that Claire was angry and heard her "they won't all fit" as being more goofy in tone. Like if this were a sitcom there'd be that stereotypical music playing after that comment.

I hope all the thousands of Kaylon there got wedding presents.

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Part of the problem is John got moved to engineering so he's not on the bridge to interact with everyone regularly. This season also didn't have much off world exploration where he would likely have been in the away party. 

It hasn't ever been a problem for the Trek shows to incorporate their engineers sufficiently despite mostly not being on the bridge, and the Orville has managed to incorporate Claire sufficiently. 

It seems like they made a conscious choice not to give John more scenes or more of an arc. Think about it: we didn't even get to see him interacting with Lysella, who saved his life. They could have easily given him some or all of the lines they gave Kelly to help explain to Lysella/the audience how the Union works. 

[Meushell]

9 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that Claire was angry and heard her "they won't all fit" as being more goofy in tone. Like if this were a sitcom there'd be that stereotypical music playing after that comment.

I hope all the thousands of Kaylon there got wedding presents.

I will have to listen to it again then.

Wow, I didn’t even think about wedding presents. I wonder if that is still traditional in the future. Imagine if they all brought a banana.

[SmithW6079]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

What a pleasant surprise to see Alara!  It made me wish they could have used her in an episode somewhere. 

I thought Halston Sage looked uncomfortable being there and almost angry, just as she did at the end of season 2's alternate timeline story. When she said she would have gotten there sooner, all I could think was the actress muttering, "But they didn't pay me enough for more screen time." 

At least she should be grateful Seth only wrote her character off, not made her go boom in a big explosion. 

I too wondered if the actress who played Lysella was Seth's new girlfriend who would be featured in major storylines next season that she wasn't qualified for.

I remembered Planet Reddit, but why were they going back? It was an odd planet for a callback.  Didn't they mention picking up a survey team? Did the Orville just forget about them when they got Lysella's call?

When they were sending Lysella back, why couldn't they memory wipe her and check all her bags for contraband?

One thing I really liked was Kelly showing Lysella what happened when the Union introduced technology into a society that wasn't ready for it. I don't think we ever saw on TNG such a mistake. (TOS had "Piece of the Action," but that was more a lighthearted romp.)

Edited August 6, 2022 by SmithW6079

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, SmithW6079 said:

When they were sending Lysella back, why couldn't they memory wipe her and check all her bags for contraband?

Why would they have memory-wiped her? She'd already met them and been aboard the Orville before she came looking for them this time. And despite coming from a culture that is similar to 21st-Century America, she's not actually from the 21st Century. She's from 2422, so it's not as though she's learned anything that would alter the timeline if she remembered it after getting sent home.

[SmithW6079]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

Why would they have memory-wiped her? She'd already met them and been aboard the Orville before she came looking for them this time. And despite coming from a culture that is similar to 21st-Century America, she's not actually from the 21st Century. She's from 2422, so it's not as though she's learned anything that would alter the timeline if she remembered it after getting sent home.

Because she was going to introduce technological concepts her planet wasn't ready for (see my amended post above).

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, SmithW6079 said:

Because she was going to introduce technological concepts her planet wasn't ready for (see my amended post above).

That's not enough of a reason to memory-wipe her without her knowledge or consent. That would in essence be doing the same thing to her  her that her culture wanted to do to John.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

I remembered Planet Reddit, but why were they going back? It was an odd planet for a callback.  Didn't they mention picking up a survey team? Did the Orville just forget about them when they got Lysella's call?

IIRC, they were going to resupply researchers who were still on Planet Reddit.

Which begs the question why the Union would bother having a research team still stationed on the planet after two members of the research team were lobotomized and John nearly was too, and when they seemingly have the capacity to monitor the planet's activities from afar.

It also raises the question about how the research team failed to pick up Lysella's messages that she had been sending out for months. 

But who needs to think about these things?

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

That's not enough of a reason to memory-wipe her without her knowledge or consent. That would in essence be doing the same thing to her  her that her culture wanted to do to John.

Planet Reddit was willing to basically lobotomize John for something that only caused moral outrage but no potential physical or other harm, where John was ignorant of the nature of his offense and where there was no reason to think he might repeat it. Oh and they were doing it mostly for amusement.

The Orville would hypothetically have been administering a much more limited memory wipe so that  Lysella would still be her, it would be doing it when Lysella fully knew she was committing a crime and the potential ramifications of her actions, when there was no guarantee that she would not attempt to repeat her behavior, and where the ramifications of her actually committing the offense could be as serious as the nuked planet we saw.

These two things aren't at all comparable.

[GreyBunny]

If Lysella becomes a regular or semi-regular for season 4, that would be fine, she’s been introduced properly and has potential. It looks like she and Alara were hitting it off.

John should have been the best man, it was nice to see some depth added to Gordon this season but season 3 turned into The Gordon Show (when it wasn’t The Charli Show. Didn’t miss her, btw).

”Thank you, sober man, you have been useful.” My favorite line.

I liked that they explained and showed why they have their version of the Prime Directive, they did it better than Trek ever did, actually. 

[DoctorAtomic]

7 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

I liked that they explained and showed why they have their version of the Prime Directive, they did it better than Trek ever did, actually.

They also showed that with the Kelly religion planet. I'd like to see more of Union history, not just in the simulator. 

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

I liked that they explained and showed why they have their version of the Prime Directive, they did it better than Trek ever did, actually. 

I agree.  I just thought it was weird that they waited until the last episode of Season 3, possibly the last episode of the series, to finally get around to this. 

[benteen]

Great finale. I hope that The Orville returns and I  wouldn't be surprised if it does. If by some chance it doesn't, I feel as though the show went out on its own terms, unlike the already missed Legends of Tomorrow. 

I liked seeing Lysella's return and glad she is staying on the ship. I don't blame her considering the world she is leaving. Agreed that Orville has done a much better job of explaining the Prime Directive than Trek ever did. Sometimes non-interference can be stupid and frankly monstrous but not giving advanced technology to a world that isn't ready, like Planet Reddit, is a disaster waiting to happen. 

Nice job earlier by the poster who noted that Penny Johnson Jerald was on an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation dealing with the Prime Directive. That was her first Trek appearance before she started appearing on Deep Space Nine.

Giorgia Whigham would be a nice addition to the cast. She's a good actress, better than Anne Winters. I remember her on the second season of The Punisher. Her father is Shea Whigham, a great character actor. I just read she has been cast as a main character for Seth's Ted series so she'll be joining him and Scott Grimes.

This was definitely the funniest episode of tbe year with Bortus's efforts to be the best man. Though the combination of that mask and the Elvis wig is a deeply disturbing visual. Agreed that Lamarr should be Isaac's best man and it annoyed me with his advice to Isaac. I'm glad Claire chewed him out with a great scene.

Gordon was fun this episode although considering he expressed doubt about Isaac's continued role on the ship on three seperate occasions this season, it was an odd choice to have him be the best man. I would hardly call thus The Scott Grimes Season. Outside of singing a few times, he only had one episode where he was really front and center. 

It was nice to hear hear Norm MacDonald one more time. RIP Norm, you will be greatly missed.

A great resolution to the Claire amd Isaac romance with the two getting married. PJJ  has been the best performer on the show for a long time and I'm glad that was recognized. Mark Jackson is pretty damn good as well.

Nice to see Alara return.

Great season! Hope there's more.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Ehh, witnessing that Moclan recommitment ceremony was something I could've done without. But I take the point about being receptive to the marital customs of other cultures, at least when mutually consenting adults are involved.

Okay, Isaac came correct with the engagement ring. Emerald cut, at least three carats. Perfect.

"Coital deployment." Isaac has a unique way with the dirty talk, lol.

The sandwich! Yay!

Bortus as Elvis on the spectrum. No. Isaac as a male stripper. Oh yes!!!

Wow, Claire was a beautiful bride. And of course she wore a dress we hadn't seen yet.

"All kidding aside." Apparently that's Moclan for "but I didn't mean that in a bad way." 🥳

Did not expect to see Alara again. Guess that's why they had to kill off Charley last week, to avoid the awkwardness. 😉

Ditto comments upthread, yeah I heard Gordon's wedding song as a bit James Taylor-ish, with a touch of Dan Fogelberg as well. Two good artists to emulate.

I too am hoping The Orville comes back for another season. Apparently Seth has mentioned in interviews that much of the main cast has other commitments now so a fourth season could be delayed.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Joimiaroxeu

[DoctorAtomic]

Begin freed up from a network broadcast, if the cast is busy, they could put out a few movies next year like Doctor Who did. Though I would like a regular season order. 

[tennisgurl]

If this ends up being the series finale, it was a really nice one. The wedding was really sweet and felt like a nice cap from the season premiere, when Isaac was estranged from most of the crew and things were awkward with Claire, and we even got to see Alara again! It was also one of the funniest episodes of the season, especially Bortus's terrible best man speech. At least Klyden liked it. I am hoping for another season, but if this is the end of the show, its a good ending that ended things on its own terms. The show was a weird fun series and I am glad that it existed, weird tonal issues aside, and while I am hoping for more, this would be a solid way to end things if its done. 

I didn't expect to hear from Planet Twitter again, but it was interesting seeing Lisella again, now wanting to leave her home world to stay with the Union. I thought that Kelly's explanations about why they cant hand out advanced technology to any society they find was interesting, plus we got some more history on the Union's history. I am glad that they tried to get into the specifics, Star Trek itself has struggled a lot over the years with how they want to use the Prime Directive and how much the Federation/Union can help other species. As we have seen on this show, it never seems to end well when the gang interferes with other worlds, even by accident. I don't know how much I would need to see Lisella in the future though, we have enough characters who struggle for screen time already. I would be fine with her showing up sometimes though. 

This season has been surprisingly low key for the most part after last seasons huge drama bomb, but I have enjoyed it.

Edited August 8, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Affogato]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:03 PM, ketose said:

I'm a little less hopeful on more seasons of Orville. This was kind of a vanity project for MacFarlane and Fox would have given him anything for more Family Guy. Now that it's part of the Disney empire, I think it's headed into the sunset.

I wonder, though. Disney itself is kind of one note, right now, and in spite of the big names and all, I'm not sure it is really capturing the minds and hearts of the viewers.  I consider myself a star wars and comic fan and I haven't even bothered to sign up for their song and dance routine. The Hulu branch is a lot more varied, and if the Orville has done well--it has reviewed better in the world than it has in this backwater--I think it has a chance. I will remain hopeful.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 8/8/2022 at 1:25 PM, Affogato said:

I wonder, though. Disney itself is kind of one note, right now, and in spite of the big names and all, I'm not sure it is really capturing the minds and hearts of the viewers.  I consider myself a star wars and comic fan and I haven't even bothered to sign up for their song and dance routine. The Hulu branch is a lot more varied, and if the Orville has done well--it has reviewed better in the world than it has in this backwater--I think it has a chance. I will remain hopeful.

I like this outlook. I've never been a fan of the whole comic-book genre, and, as I've mentioned, am a low-key sci-fi fan, though more in theory than practice - I loved the original Star Trek, and the first Star Wars trilogy, but as much as I've checked out newer iterations here and there, have never gotten pulled into any of the newer worlds and universes. I don't know what it is about the Orville that clicked. Maybe it was just time, maybe there was something about the whole new, independent aspect rather than interminable spinoffs. Maybe it was even the little mini-crush on Seth that's been brewing for years... I watch hardly any TV these days at all outside of the occasional binge of one show or another  (another favorite, recently, was Harlots...also unfortunately defunct after three seasons), but the Orville has just really made me feel invested in it.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Jynnan tonnix

[Dobian]

ALARA!!!

This show has missed her spunky energy

[Ottis]

That was … uninteresting. Wedding whatever. Had no memory of Lisella until she mentioned “voting down.” Then we learned she is a millennial (“why do people work if you don’t have to?”). And the Moclan mating ritual made no sense: Throwing a big rock at your mate? They remain at war, with an alliance with a former enemy, but everyone on Orville is happy, so… yay?

[Meushell]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

Then we learned she is a millennial (“why do people work if you don’t have to?”).

Why does that question make her a millennial? The question makes a lot of sense when your needs are all provided for, especially if she wasn’t happy at her job. That she could have a job that she would love might seem like an unrealistic goal to her. 

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Meushell said:

Why does that question make her a millennial? The question makes a lot of sense when your needs are all provided for, especially if she wasn’t happy at her job. That she could have a job that she would love might seem like an unrealistic goal to her. 

Because most people need purpose, and even if your basic needs are met without working, having assigned duties, especially if those duties are in support of something greater than themselves, is fulfilling. Except for millennials, whose first concern is their own work/life balance. Hence, her question of “why have a job?” fits a millennial. From a social media planet, no less. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Ottis

[Ottis]

On 8/6/2022 at 2:42 PM, SmithW6079 said:

One thing I really liked was Kelly showing Lysella what happened when the Union introduced technology into a society that wasn't ready for it. I don't think we ever saw on TNG such a mistake. (TOS had "Piece of the Action," but that was more a lighthearted romp.)

I don't think back in the 60s anyone felt it was necessary to show it. SImply saying "hey, give monkeys guns and bad stuff happens to them" was sufficient as a lesson. The fact that they had to show it now says a lot about our society today - and again, Lysella = millennial (have to see it or doesn't believe it). 

On 8/8/2022 at 3:45 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

I don't know what it is about the Orville that clucked. Maybe it was just time, maybe there was something about the whole new, independent aspect rather than interminable spinoffs. Maybe it was even the little mini-crush on Seth that's been brewing for years... I watch hardly any TV these days at all outside of the occasional binge of one show or another  (another favorite, recently, was Harlots...also unfortunately defunct after three seasons), but the Orville has just really made me feel invested in it.

I think Orville is "every man sci-fi." It's not challenging, and it depends heavily on references that tie directly to our real life time (hence all the 80s stuff, for starters).  You don't have to think much about concepts that are different than what you already know. It took 3 seasons to show why the Kaylon revolted, and even that was a simplistic "lesson" that made no moral sense. Same for what the crew talk about with each other. It's who likes who, how they feel, etc.  It's an easy watch. From a sci-fi POV, though, it's maddening. Because it could be so much better than it is - assuming it wants to be.

On 8/7/2022 at 8:20 AM, benteen said:

Agreed that Orville has done a much better job of explaining the Prime Directive than Trek ever did.

I think Trek was pretty clear. WHat characters did wasn't always aligned with the PD, and the results varied (just like it did with Gordon and his 10 years on Earth, etc.) . But the concept was clear. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Ottis

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/9/2022 at 5:23 PM, Ottis said:

Because most people need purpose, and even if your basic needs are met without working, having assigned duties, especially if those duties are in support of something greater than themselves, is fulfilling. Except for millennials, whose first concern is their own work/life balance. Hence, her question of “why have a job?” fits a millennial. From a social media planet, no less. 

But at least to this non-millennial, having a purpose and having a job are not necessarily the same thing (and probably should not be in more cases than not). People in the Union are not seemingly assigned duties. 

If people in virtually any incarnation of human society were gifted with unlimited use of simulators and matter synthesizers and a base guarantee of food, shelter and safety, I'd dare say only a small percent of them would continue to work in similar senses to what they did in their contemporary settings, Yes, some people would do variations of the work they do, while maybe working for fewer hours or with different hobbies.

But in a society where one's fundamental needs were met regardless of how much or how little the individual contributes, one would have to imagine that some people would spend their lives in simul-brothels/novels or in many other non "job" ways.

[Bort]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But in a society where one's fundamental needs were met regardless of how much or how little the individual contributes, one would have to imagine that some people would spend their lives in simul-brothels/novels or in many other non "job" ways.

There’s the part Kelly said about their society valuing reputation, so it seems the majority do what they do so people think they’re awesome and not a worthless slug. But I’m sure there are the select few worthless slugs who don’t give a rats ass about their reputation and live in the simulator. We’ve already seen addiction to it being a thing.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's really the same now in 2022 too.

Kelly also pointed out that some people just study art, music, or write, etc., so it's the doing of something that she was emphasizing not necessarily what you were doing. 

I certainly would like to sit around and write all day or learn to really cook fancy, but that isn't paying the bills, although I have no problem with my job, and I am actually writing a lot. That's not the same as just spending five years writing a sci fi novel and not having to worry about food, electricity, so on. 

[Emma9]

It was wonderful to see Alara. The thing about her only having "a limited time in off-world gravity each year" seemed odd though. The original plan was for her to recuperate on Xeleyah for a while and then at least attempt to come back to her post on the Orville. Then the 'gravity therapy' idea was introduced to make it even more likely she'd be able to do so. Even if she's found fulfillment staying on Xeleyah, it seems more like the Alara we knew to keep up with the treatments anyway so she wouldn't be effectively trapped there.

Funny that Isaac invited his entire planet...except that he didn't make a point of including Timmis and the scientist who worked on him?
 

~

On 8/4/2022 at 6:57 AM, MSterling said:

How do Moclans decide who chases and who evades?

Well, in this case, Klyden has always been the chick, so it's obvious. /s

(Among many reasons the Moclan plots have never worked well for me, I don't like the way Klyden is treated as a 'woman in denial' - born a female, by the morals of the narrative should have stayed a female, so we as viewers are supposed to see him as inherently female...and whaddya know, he's the naggy stay-at-home spouse whose main hobby is replicator-shopping. And yes, in terms of this ceremony, if it were truly a partnership of equals, there would be the question of who chases whom.)

Also, how often would said ceremony actually be used? Moclan divorces typically don't leave two survivors to change their minds later.

~

On 8/4/2022 at 11:26 PM, chaifan said:

The odd thing about both Star Trek's Federation and the Union's position is that there is no middle ground.  At least the Federation has a solid line of achieving warp drive as when it is ok to make first contact.  I don't know if the Union has an equivalent.

Going by the Astrology Planet episode, it seems to be when a planet successfully sends a message that can be received off-world? Which, yes, is weird to me. If there's a Union equivalent in the galactic neighborhood in the real world right this minute, we've been squawking enough that they could hear us for decades now. (They could have even modeled starships off of our TV shows!) Certainly Reddit Planet is at least that advanced. Maybe the salient point is that in that case, the transmission was a deliberate attempt to communicate with hypothetical extraterrestrial life, but again, Earth has certainly checked off that box and it seems odd that no one on Reddit Planet ever would have done so.

[Orbert]

Kelly said that without currency or the need for money, one's reputation is what is valued, and that's basically how it is on "Planet Reddit" (I don't remember its actual name).  Your "karma" -- upvotes/downvotes -- is what counts.  I kept waiting for either Kelly or Lysella to make that comparison, but it never happened.

[Meushell]

On 8/9/2022 at 3:23 PM, Ottis said:

Because most people need purpose, and even if your basic needs are met without working, having assigned duties, especially if those duties are in support of something greater than themselves, is fulfilling. Except for millennials, whose first concern is their own work/life balance. Hence, her question of “why have a job?” fits a millennial. From a social media planet, no less. 

She’s learning about an entirely new system for the first time. She had to work before, but every day, she risked getting downvoted from someone who didn’t like their coffee or thought she took too long. They don’t even have to confront her, just use her badge number and vote her down without any consequences. Now she’s told, everything she needs will be provided for, that she can do whatever she wants. It’s like a vacation for life to her. It might sound great to a lot of people at first. Having questions is natural, and it should not label her as anything. What she does next is what matters.

[Ottis]

3 hours ago, Meushell said:

She’s learning about an entirely new system for the first time. She had to work before, but every day, she risked getting downvoted from someone who didn’t like their coffee or thought she took too long. They don’t even have to confront her, just use her badge number and vote her down without any consequences. Now she’s told, everything she needs will be provided for, that she can do whatever she wants. It’s like a vacation for life to her. It might sound great to a lot of people at first. Having questions is natural, and it should not label her as anything. What she does next is what matters.

What she did next was try to steal technology so she could be a hero to her planet, so…

[RevBrett]

"The thing about her only having 'a limited time in off-world gravity each year' seemed odd though."

I agree. A clunky way to explain her absence, perhaps. I can see hundreds of smoother ones, just in response to a "How have you been?" question: Met someone in PT and got married, enjoying classes for my new degree, having fun getting to know my sister's new family, been promised a spot on a new ship being built...

Edited August 13, 2022 by RevBrett

[Meushell]

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

What she did next was try to steal technology so she could be a hero to her planet, so…

True, though I don’t agree with the motive. At least, I don’t think that was the entire motive. However, that’s going to be a matter of opinion.

[Bort]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:28 PM, Emma9 said:

It was wonderful to see Alara. The thing about her only having "a limited time in off-world gravity each year" seemed odd though. The original plan was for her to recuperate on Xeleyah for a while and then at least attempt to come back to her post on the Orville. Then the 'gravity therapy' idea was introduced to make it even more likely she'd be able to do so. Even if she's found fulfillment staying on Xeleyah, it seems more like the Alara we knew to keep up with the treatments anyway so she wouldn't be effectively trapped there.

Alara is electing to not do the gravity treatments, which means she can’t stay away from her home planet for too long.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

Alara is electing to not do the gravity treatments, which means she can’t stay away from her home planet for too long.

Yes.  
But there should have been a “previously on The Orville” reminder of this factoid from 5 Freaking Years ago (IMO).

[Chaos Theory]

The concept of “work” would change.  People wouldn’t have to take whatever menial job was available out of desperation just to avoid starvation or homelessness.    If they enjoyed working on spaceships and were good at it they would continue to take classes and work on spaceships for the rest of their lives.  If they loved music they would do that.   If you liked to climb mountain you could go to every friendly planet with climbable mountains and maybe eventually start teaching others to do that as well.  When “work” is no longer attached to survival then it no longer is a chore. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[chaifan]

On 8/13/2022 at 2:01 PM, Chaos Theory said:

The concept of “work” would change.  People wouldn’t have to take whatever menial job was available out of desperation just avoid starvation or homelessness.

I guess what I never understood about this concept is that are there no "menial" jobs anymore?  Yeah, I know that much of life has been automated, but there still have to be some undesirable jobs that still have to be performed by humans.  Who does those, and why do they do them if they don't have to? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

I guess what I never understood about this concept is that are there no "menial" jobs anymore?  Yeah, I know that much of life has been automated, but there still have to be some undesirable jobs that still have to be performed by humans.  Who does those, and why do they do them if they don't have to? 

Maybe this is me lacking imagination, but it seems like there would be very few undesirable jobs that have to be performed by humans in a world where there is high enough technology and infinite resources. 

A lot of nasty jobs today like waste management and handling sewage would be made much easier when you could just vaporize or reconfigure molecules in shit or other substances. Handling hazardous materials is less harmful when medical tech can probably undo any damage done by future equivalents to asbestos, nuclear material, etc. 

On top of that, the Union has eliminated the social stigma or prestige associated with certain jobs based on everything from earning potential to what Hollywood says about them. In our society, it's "better" to have certain white collar jobs than many blue collar jobs, even if the blue collar jobs pay better. In the Union, if we take Kelly at her word, being the best server or plumber is as prestigious as being the best doctor. 

[Affogato]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_Two
 

BF Skinner’s book Walden 2 explores a society where menial and undesirable jobs are paid more than jobs people want to do. although utopian it is in practice perhaps questionable  

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Maybe this is me lacking imagination, but it seems like there would be very few undesirable jobs that have to be performed by humans in a world where there is high enough technology and infinite resources. 

Even if humans didn't personally do the "dirty work", a lot of people would have to be involved in the management and operation of whatever did do the dirty work.  And that is always going to be more mundane and not as inspiring as other work, depending on what it is.  All jobs are never going to be equally desirable no matter the shift in social and work-related values.  Some jobs will be more popular than others for any number of reasons even if not attached to any outdated social values.  And who decides who gets to do which jobs?  Based on talent?  Because no matter how you slice it the most talented people will get the most desirable jobs so when all the seats are filled some people will be left doing work they really don't care to do.  That's just human nature and in how many thousands of years that has not changed despite changes in social values and government?  

[jcbrown]

On 8/4/2022 at 1:32 PM, kay1864 said:

- ‘Man and wife’? Not ‘husband and wife’? How about joining the 21st-century, show?

Seriously. This and the fact that Ed has a surprise kid with whatshername both took me out of the story. C'mon, writers, surely you can imagine that there would be reliable contraception and non-misogynist wedding vows by now.

I thought this episode was oddly placed in the season. There were things I enjoyed this season but also some very clunky bits and this episode leaned a little too hard on Kelly-as-exposition-fairy for my tastes. I think the extra episode length on Hulu has largely been abused and led to  episodes that should have been tightened up. I did like that this episode used Scott Grimes better. I think his humor has been missing from the season (not entirely but I could have used more).

Edited August 16, 2022 by jcbrown

[Lugal]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

All jobs are never going to be equally desirable no matter the shift in social and work-related values.  Some jobs will be more popular than others for any number of reasons even if not attached to any outdated social values.  And who decides who gets to do which jobs?  Based on talent?  Because no matter how you slice it the most talented people will get the most desirable jobs so when all the seats are filled some people will be left doing work they really don't care to do.  That's just human nature and in how many thousands of years that has not changed despite changes in social values and government? 

Without the threat of starvation and homelessness, people would decide what jobs they want to do themselves.  And society would decide what jobs were necessary or not.  With the fully automated luxury communism of the Union, most undesirable jobs would be automated.  Of the few undesirable but necessary jobs that can't be, there are solutions.  They could be term based, or as Bob Black suggested they could be turned into game-like activities.  If people weren't alienated from their work, they may be more willing to do the undesirable things if they see how it benefits society at large, or even just themselves directly.

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

Without the threat of starvation and homelessness, people would decide what jobs they want to do themselves.  And society would decide what jobs were necessary or not.  With the fully automated luxury communism of the Union, most undesirable jobs would be automated.  Of the few undesirable but necessary jobs that can't be, there are solutions.  They could be term based, or as Bob Black suggested they could be turned into game-like activities.  If people weren't alienated from their work, they may be more willing to do the undesirable things if they see how it benefits society at large, or even just themselves directly.

People can't just decide what they want to do and expect to be able to do it.  They have to first have the skills to do it and show that they can do a good job of it or society would inevitably break down with people blundering around doing stuff they're not suited for just because it's what they want to do.  And inevitably certain jobs are going to be way more popular than others.  What if everyone wanted to be an astrophysicist just because it's cool and that's what they really want to do?  There isn't a need for that many.  Someone talented is going to end up disappointed and have to find something else to do.

This stuff appeals to young idealists that haven't done the math and haven't realized the inevitable glitches that would throw a wrench into the idea.  I might have been one of those young idealists if I didn't grow up in the Bronx, which was a very early education in reality and human nature that has stood the test of time for many decades.  I think this show and Star Trek are both based on a sort of utopian philosophy that like communism, works perfectly on paper and in an ideal world, but would fail miserably in the real one.  I know shows like this love to imagine it is possible, but let's first of all not forget this is science FICTION and I'm not even sure the writers really believe that it would work in real life.  I for one don't think it would, and I think history proves that there is way more evidence for my position.  The one big wrench in this is that human nature is amazingly constant and hasn't changed much in thousands of years.  For this to work human nature would have to change and since that's not happening any time soon it's just a fun idea but not one I believe is possible.

[Lugal]

15 hours ago, Yeah No said:

People can't just decide what they want to do and expect to be able to do it.  They have to first have the skills to do it and show that they can do a good job of it or society would inevitably break down with people blundering around doing stuff they're not suited for just because it's what they want to do.  And inevitably certain jobs are going to be way more popular than others.  What if everyone wanted to be an astrophysicist just because it's cool and that's what they really want to do?  There isn't a need for that many.  Someone talented is going to end up disappointed and have to find something else to do.

You're right, not everyone will be able to do what they want, skill and aptitude will weed out a lot.  But they will still be free to pursue their interests (most people have more than one).  I think of it like dinosaurs.  Lots of lay people are interested in dinosaurs and know something about them, some even spend their free time reading scientific papers about them but few go on to become full paleontologists.  In a world where people are guaranteed shelter, food, and medical care, finding something else to do will not be as big a deal since their survival is not dependent upon it.  They could even try a variety of different things if they wanted, and not have to worry about becoming stuck in something they discover they really don't like.

15 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think this show and Star Trek are both based on a sort of utopian philosophy that like communism, works perfectly on paper and in an ideal world, but would fail miserably in the real one.  I know shows like this love to imagine it is possible, but let's first of all not forget this is science FICTION and I'm not even sure the writers really believe that it would work in real life.  I for one don't think it would, and I think history proves that there is way more evidence for my position.  The one big wrench in this is that human nature is amazingly constant and hasn't changed much in thousands of years.  For this to work human nature would have to change and since that's not happening any time soon it's just a fun idea but not one I believe is possible.

The Orville and Star Trek are utopian and to be honest, I'm not sure Fully Automated Luxury Communism is even possible either.  But we could organize society differently if we choose, because we have before.  In the 200,000 years humans have been around, we've had an extreme diversity of civilizations and cultures, some extremely egalitarian, some extremely stratified.  It's only in the last three hundred years or so of industrialized civilization that we've become stuck in a mode where an elite few profit at the expense of the many (which was built on earlier modes of agricultural cultures going back to classical Greece and Rome).  That's why the appeal to human nature doesn't work for me.  It's not something intrinsic to us, but the result of cultural conditioning to survive in this current civilization.  We as a species can change it at any time we want (and we're going to have to if we want to survive the existential crises we're facing).

[Bort]

Yeah, realistically, I also don’t feel like the Star Trek/Orville no money utopia would ever happen, but it’s interesting to contemplate in the context of the shows. And we can speculate about menial tasks that might no longer exist (like janitor) but what about the one we’ve seen? Bartender. The Orville has a bartender, which a lot of people would consider a low rung career, but it’s possible that someone would pursue it because of the social aspect: meeting lots of different people and cultures.

[Chaos Theory]

On 8/15/2022 at 10:09 AM, Yeah No said:

Even if humans didn't personally do the "dirty work", a lot of people would have to be involved in the management and operation of whatever did do the dirty work.  And that is always going to be more mundane and not as inspiring as other work, depending on what it is.  All jobs are never going to be equally desirable no matter the shift in social and work-related values.  Some jobs will be more popular than others for any number of reasons even if not attached to any outdated social values.  And who decides who gets to do which jobs?  Based on talent?  Because no matter how you slice it the most talented people will get the most desirable jobs so when all the seats are filled some people will be left doing work they really don't care to do.  That's just human nature and in how many thousands of years that has not changed despite changes in social values and government?  

I think this is part of the reason why we aren’t even close to being ready for a world where people didn’t have to work 40+ hours a day 5 days a week at jobs they barely tolerate to survive.   We have trouble even perceiving a world where that isn’t the case.   Where we would do our part to keep society going because it was the right thing to do and not get some sort of monetary recognition for it.   Where we didn’t worry constantly about where our food, electricity. And shelter came from.

We are the girl from planet Reddit.    

The idea that people in The Union would work at jobs because they wanted to and because they enjoyed them seems so foreign to us.  

But then really how much tv can any of us actually watch before we get bored and go out to play baseball, golf,  video game or whatever with our friends.    Or do the laundry we have been avoiding for days.   I think in the Union it doesn’t matter what you do as long as you do something.     There is no social status between the lady who does the laundry and the businessman who wears it.  They can live in the same building and send their kids to the same school.   if the show went on Captain Mercer could send his daughter to the same school as the lowliest lower deck ensign’s kid and no one would think it strange.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:09 AM, Yeah No said:

Even if humans didn't personally do the "dirty work", a lot of people would have to be involved in the management and operation of whatever did do the dirty work.  And that is always going to be more mundane and not as inspiring as other work, depending on what it is.  All jobs are never going to be equally desirable no matter the shift in social and work-related values.  Some jobs will be more popular than others for any number of reasons even if not attached to any outdated social values.  And who decides who gets to do which jobs?  Based on talent?  Because no matter how you slice it the most talented people will get the most desirable jobs so when all the seats are filled some people will be left doing work they really don't care to do.  That's just human nature and in how many thousands of years that has not changed despite changes in social values and government?  

I don't see why it would take a lot of people to be involved in managing/operating whatever did the dirty work, depending on the technical sophistication. Some things could be fully automated, while others could just be largely automated. Still other jobs would not need to be done at all. 

We don't live in a post-scarcity universe and never have. The thing about a post-scarcity universe is that there's no limit to how many people could do a job, and there's no reason for someone to do a job that they don't want to do, or under conditions that they don't want to do it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/15/2022 at 8:37 PM, Yeah No said:

People can't just decide what they want to do and expect to be able to do it.  They have to first have the skills to do it and show that they can do a good job of it or society would inevitably break down with people blundering around doing stuff they're not suited for just because it's what they want to do.  And inevitably certain jobs are going to be way more popular than others.  What if everyone wanted to be an astrophysicist just because it's cool and that's what they really want to do?  There isn't a need for that many.  Someone talented is going to end up disappointed and have to find something else to do.

This stuff appeals to young idealists that haven't done the math and haven't realized the inevitable glitches that would throw a wrench into the idea.  I might have been one of those young idealists if I didn't grow up in the Bronx, which was a very early education in reality and human nature that has stood the test of time for many decades.  I think this show and Star Trek are both based on a sort of utopian philosophy that like communism, works perfectly on paper and in an ideal world, but would fail miserably in the real one.  I know shows like this love to imagine it is possible, but let's first of all not forget this is science FICTION and I'm not even sure the writers really believe that it would work in real life.  I for one don't think it would, and I think history proves that there is way more evidence for my position.  The one big wrench in this is that human nature is amazingly constant and hasn't changed much in thousands of years.  For this to work human nature would have to change and since that's not happening any time soon it's just a fun idea but not one I believe is possible.

Why wouldn't people be able to just decide what they want to do and expect to be able to do it, generally speaking?

A society could allow people to pursue whatever skills they want. Yes, there would be people who are fundamentally incapable of developing certain skills. In which case, they would get fired or redirected. 

Nothing would inherently stop everyone who wanted to be an astrophysicist from being one if they had the skills to do it. The notion of there being a "need" for a job is a relic of a scarcity economy.

Again, what we might consider "human nature" is a product of cultural conditioning rather than actual inherent qualities.

There is no real framework for how people would behave if they didn't have to struggle to survive.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, kariyaki said:

The Orville has a bartender, which a lot of people would consider a low rung career, but it’s possible that someone would pursue it because of the social aspect: meeting lots of different people and cultures.

We actually had this kind of discussion with our bartender today. They are getting an HR degree and we were saying how bartending provides significant experience. It's how you look at it and what you want to do. 

[SherriAnt]

On 8/14/2022 at 3:04 PM, chaifan said:

ill have to be some undesirable jobs that still have to be performed by humans.  Who does those, and why do they do them if they don't have to? 

I was wondering the same thing. There are lots of awful jobs that still need to get done.  I doubt they'll ever explain, though. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

I have a hard time really believing that all possible foods could be replicated to truly be an acceptable substitute for the "real" thing. I'm just making some big pots of tomato sauce from the tomatoes out in the garden, and having a nice tomato salad with a couple of the really pretty ones, still warm from the sunshine. Is the tomato that the replicator spits out really going to be equal to that? And I'm sure some people would still want to farm fresh produce anyway - there are those who love it, and it seems there would still be demand for fresh fruits and such. But still, wouldn't there be a limit to how much fresh produce was available, and some version of supply and demand would still exist.

And what about artists? Sure, they could have a wonderful life just producing art and not worry about making a living with it, which would be amazing, but what if they were extremely talented to the point that their work was widely sought after? I suppose it could all go into a museum, and no one could actually own an original, but where do you draw the line between masterworks and doodles? 

It seems there are any number of similar scenarios where some things are just inherently more valuable, and there would have to be some method of determining who "deserves" to have them.