S03.E09: Domino

[kay1864]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

They don’t have transporters.

Very true. However they do have replicators, and I’m guessing Charlie and Isaac either got the components out of storage, or replicated what they needed, and put it together. And Isaac can certainly remember every component and assembly step. 

[Colorado David]

Agreed. You'd think any engineers, upon creating a device would keep a record how to create the device, unless its a one-off, which according to their explanation this one isn't.  You created a McGuffin weapon and arbitrarily now it can't be used again? It's the time travel around the sun plot hole all over again.

It will be interesting to see if they add another new character or just keep the base main characters. We've lost what 3 now, Klyden, Yaphit and Charli...well Klyden not lost, but kinda written out. I'm not sure Yaphit is written out or just temporary hiatus. I would hope they'd keep him, he's interesting and adds some humor. Wait, 4 if you count Alara.  

[Meushell]

5 hours ago, jah1986 said:

Also, why did the Kaylon help Orville retrieve the weapon, why not just kill everyone now while they're defenseless? It made no sense.

That would get the Kaylon killed. Without the Union the Krill and Moclans have a weapon that they will use against them. They figured it out pretty quickly too. 

[blueray]

I did like this episode but I do wish that they had more build up for the weapon. It just suddenly was there, or I did I miss something? I kept thinking what they should do is basically nothing. They showed the weapon has great power they should hold on to it. Then let the Kaylon come to them. This is basically what they did in Stargate Sg-1 but in this case they know they can use the weapon again (in SG-1 they didn't). Also, have better security. Like one person shouldn't be able to get access to the room with it in. 

Also on a different note, I kept thinking the sets they were in where holodecks. Like the battle at the beginning and the cabin (which I thought was a holodeck) until the next scene when it was morning.

As for Charley, I think the writers intended the viewer to feel sad about her death. I honestly was happy. I didn't like her and she took up way to much screen time. I did like that Isaac gave the eulogy.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

They don’t have transporters.  The crew have taken shuttles everywhere.  As much as it likes to take ideas from Star Trek we all have to be careful not to compare it too much to Star Trek.   Orville is it’s own show in its own universe with its own rules.    And Trek liked to take shortcuts with the transporter and a lot of its technology so I like the idea that The Orville lives in a technology advanced universe but one where not every problem can be solved with technobabble.

Technically, the Union doesn't seem to have transporters, but at least a transporter does exist in this universe IIRC. I want to say Ed and Kelly were transported from a trap ship to a zoo a ludicrous distance away. Why the Union/Kaylon/etc. upon discovering the existence of this type of device (if it wasn't already known to them) did not devote substantial amounts of time and resources to develop it is an exercise best left to the reader.

There is very little technobabble that hasn't been or could not be copied from Trek to the Orville. 

[Colorado David]

I thnk you are right, so certain alien species have their versions of transporters. You'd think for all their vaulted intelligence, the Kaylons would have it already.

And bring back Engineer Dann, he was funny. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Colorado David

[blueray]

5 hours ago, Colorado David said:

It will be interesting to see if they add another new character or just keep the base main characters. We've lost what 3 now, Klyden, Yaphit and Charli...well Klyden not lost, but kinda written out. I'm not sure Yaphit is written out or just temporary hiatus. I would hope they'd keep him, he's interesting and adds some humor. Wait, 4 if you count Alara.  

Klyden is there and back living on the ship? That is the opposite of written out. Yaphit the actor died :(, so I'm not sure what they are going to do. The only characters written out are Alara (still hoping for another apparence) and Charlie (thankfully). 

[Colorado David]

Was Klyden back on the ship? I missed that. Yaphit the character can be voiced by a different actor than Norm.

[ketose]

Truly, Charley was this series' Mary Sue.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Colorado David said:

Was Klyden back on the ship? I missed that. Yaphit the character can be voiced by a different actor than Norm.

Klyden came back last episode when the little matter of his daughter being kidnapped and tortured was enough to make him realize what a douche he had been previously, and all was forgiven. I'm not bitter at all that he didn't have to beg to earn his forgiveness.

Anyway, in this episode, he was in at least the scene where everyone was hanging out in the cabin. 

[Ceindreadh]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:03 AM, The Kings Foot said:

Actually at the moment of death she said something about meeting Amanda.  So I view it as suicide in service of ones country. 

Not gonna lie, I did tear up a bit when Charli said "I'm here Amanda."

Mind you, I did spend the rest of the episode wondering if it was going to somehow be reversed.

The Union should have started working on getting the weapon copied and installed on every single ship available.  Never mind wiping out the whole species, just have every ship be able to defend itself and make sure that the Kaylon know that and keep away from them. 

[Colorado David]

It brings up an interesting point Danson's character made, in that all weapons eventually will have a weakness found and therefore become obsoleted, forcing advancements in weapons. I'm guessing currently we have no such thing for our nuclear weapons, beyond being able to detect their launches early enuff. I wish we'd figure something out for them. (question, EMPs, do those disable nuclear missiles?) 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Colorado David said:

...question, EMPs, do those disable nuclear missiles?) 

Answered in Small Talk: 

[chaifan]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:24 AM, Colorado David said:

the music is abrasively intrusive again.  uh oh a ship flyby, crank up that brass theme and ready the trumpet stabs. pewpewpew. every scene does NOT need music.

I totally agree.  The music was so in your face in *every* scene.  My theory is that Seth McF broke up with Charly and started dating the show's score composer. 

[greekmom]

23 hours ago, Colorado David said:

And bring back Engineer Dann, he was funny. 

Agreed. I miss Dan.

Also, Gordon and Charly had some decent chemistry but of course Seth made the character in love with her bestie. 

It would have been a good B side storyline if they toned down Charly in a few episodes and had her and Gordon fall in love after his time travel episode.

[RedHawk]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:34 PM, RevBrett said:

Although I'm sure there are exceptions, I find the show smarter when it's spoofy (earlier seasons) and stupid when it tries to be smart and serious.

I liked your whole post but this summed up my feelings perfectly. I really miss the S1 and S2 versions of this show. S3 has been tedious, bludgeoning me with Messages, and although the look is impressive I’m personally not a fan of extended space battles. I always thought the look of the show was impressive, so not sure if spending further millions was necessary. I was pleasantly surprised and engaged in S1 when episodes would get dramatic and serious, and that is what hooked me. Now it’s all serious with tiny bits of comedy, and I struggle through most episodes. 

20 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

The Union should have started working on getting the weapon copied and installed on every single ship available.  Never mind wiping out the whole species, just have every ship be able to defend itself and make sure that the Kaylon know that and keep away from them. 

Like the atom bomb, it would be a good deterrant. The Union would rather make peace than war, so Ed forced the Kaylons to sit down and listen to the message: “Our intention was never to destroy YOU. You attacked us unprovoked. So if you don’t cease hostilities, we WILL destroy you.” It’s the better way forward, to give the Kaylons a chance at peaceful coexistence. The plot holes however, argh! 

And the overall editing/pacing this season has been bad. The episodes run longer so yay more story BUT then they drag. One example was a shot of boots walking through a corridor, the buildup to the reveal that Admiral Ted Danson was on the Krill ship, having brought the weapon. A shot of boots that went on many seconds too long. Seconds really do matter. It did not build tension, was just tedious. I’ve noticed several times over several episodes that shots took too long and told us nothing.

Edited July 31, 2022 by RedHawk
Spelling

[Racj82]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:39 PM, Lugal said:

The space battle was impressive.  I wonder if CGI is getting to the point where's it's more cost efficient to have a bunch of space battles versus building sets and paying actors?

It's not getting that way. It's pretty much always been cheaper to do cgi. They would have never built sets for tv show space battle away. Maybe they would have used miniatures at one time but that time is long gone.

I don't understand the hate people have for Charly.

She played an important function as an outsider. Because she had no personal ties to our main characters she brought a different perspective. No one should be brushing off what Issac did easily. It would be hard for most to trust him again.

She did not dominate the show. John and Talla easily got the short end of the stick in terms of airtime but they always have.

I don't need to see Issac and Charlie working on their device. They built to them being able to work together all season and once they could, two smart minds made something important. It doesn't take away from John. There are just other smart people in the fleet.

The episodes have been too long but I've been enjoying them. People need to slow down with the run times. It largely worked for stranger things but we don't have to put every idea into an episode.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Remember how Teleya got elected on a whole platform of "I'm going to make Krill follow the light of Avis again/we don't need to ally with these soulless devils"? Remember how she stabbed the Union president and was going to kill him and the rest of the delegation to prove a point instead of just kicking them off Krill, regardless of how that might start a war that they could ill-afford?

It makes me wonder how her constituency on Krill would react to her making a deal with not the entire Union, but a former sexist part of it. 

Like would she have just spun it such that "Avis has dictated that we work with these heathen to defeat the threat of an even greater group of heathens"? Keep it secret from the general public that they were working together? 

Putting Teleya on trial would be pretty interesting as well if the show gets that far.

[Chicago Redshirt]

33 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

I don't understand the hate people have for Charly.

She played an important function as an outsider. Because she had no personal ties to our main characters she brought a different perspective. No one should be brushing off what Issac did easily. It would be hard for most to trust him again.

She did not dominate the show. John and Talla easily got the short end of the stick in terms of airtime but they always have.

I don't need to see Issac and Charlie working on their device. They built to them being able to work together all season and once they could, two smart minds made something important. It doesn't take away from John. There are just other smart people in the fleet.

Quick rundown of what I don't like about Charly and presumably others don't either:

1. Charly has been written as largely a one-note or two-note character, rather than as a full-fledged human. 

2. It isn't a particularly interesting note. Just being bitter at Isaac/the Kaylon over what they did can and did get tiring.

3. Even within the one-note of being bitter about the Kaylon, it was written poorly. She wasn't so much upset about the fact that thousands were killed, or that the Kaylon represented an existential threat to all biological beings or any number of other things, but it got mostly reduced to her not being able to tell her bestie/girlfriend she loved her. So if the escape pod had functioned properly and Amanda would have been able to flee with her, that would deflate things dramatically?

4. Even within the one-note writing for Charly, the Charly actress for most of her scenes was pretty bad. To her credit, her farewell line was delivered well. But most everything else was at best average and bland.

5. The notion of her ability to engage in "fourth-dimensional thinking" was never explained and basically was a handwave to give her near magical abilities. I am loathe to use the term Mary Sue because its use is often pretty sexist. But the notion of a newcomer who is better at most things than the rest of the crew fits here. 

6. Even if the writing and the acting for Charly had been the best version of each for her character, her presence meant taking up time from the characters that we have known and loved. I would not be surprised if she had gotten more air time than John and Talla, when the airtime for such a character should IMO have been more on the level of supporting characters like Marcus/Ty/Klyden. 

7. The fact that she was raised to a high level of prominence and that she has been dating Seth MacFarlane are not unrelated, and that seems icky.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The notion of her ability to engage in "fourth-dimensional thinking" was never explained

The concept of a young, attractive female being valued for her rare quality of "4th-dimensional thinking" is a show I would like to watch.
Unfortunately, this was not that.
Charly's Einsteinian-esque thinking was barely mentioned, and, yes, as @Chicago Redshirt and others have mentioned, it was never explained.
Heck. I'd love to write the handwavium explanation for her 4th-dimensional thinking if they couldn't find anyone else (which I'm sure they could have).
That could have been some groundbreaking scifi.

At least they didn't hyper-sexualize her. 

But instead, they made Charly's arc about her hatred of Kaylons, which was similar to hatred of Middle Easterners after 9/11 and hatred of Asians after Pearl Harbor. This could have been an okay story, but instead it just felt tedious.
I think her 4-dimensional thinking should have almost made her immune to such over-generalizations. 

Unfortunately, instead we got a one-season character with 2 unresolved story ideas.

I did not hate the character, but I kind of hated how she was written.

And with the cat out of the bag as to Ann Winters' and Seth's relationship status, she should have had lesser role. 

Maybe they downplayed the 4-dimensional thinking in order to make her cranky since she was a place holder for Klyden?

Edited August 1, 2022 by shapeshifter

[SmithW6079]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:03 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I actually really liked this episode but I am guessing the Charly Burke haters are going to hate it because of course they will.   I always liked the idea of Isaac and Charly working together despite the fact that Charly never trusted Isaac.    And I loved the idea that they came up with a super weapon because of course they did.  I also really loved the idea that it dealt with The genocide question when it comes to Terminators, The Borg, The Cylons….and now the Kaylons.     And Damn it Ted Danson!   "True to his ethics even as he commits treason."  

You don't have to like her but this season has been about Charly and her character growth in alot of ways.    And Isaacs speech at the end was really well done.  He didn't understand Charly and I think alot of people don't but her saving Isaac because she could and her sacrificing herself in the end was a great story.   

It's not "hating" to point out that the actor who played Charly was a very bad actress and pulled down any scene she was in. Her two motivations were anger and petulance, and her two expressions were anger or petulance. Even when she was making her "noble" sacrifice, she still sounded like a cranky teenager who was just told to clean her room, and she didn't even do that well.

And why exactly was this season about "Charly and her character growth" anyway? She was a brand new character we had never even heard of before, and she took precedence over existing characters. She was shoved down our throats but we're supposed to pretend that this angry, petulant nothing is suddenly an integral part of a previously well-functioning core staff of people? Exactly why did they like her? Because the writers told us she was beloved by the existing crew.  

On 7/29/2022 at 11:26 PM, ketose said:

Truly, Charley was this series' Mary Sue.

Oh yeah, totally. Even in the worst fan fiction, I don't think the Mary Sue would have been this bad.

What about that ridiculous eulogy Ed delivered? "Charly was the bestest, smartest, most lovable ensign in the history of the Union evah." I'm ashamed of Seth Macfarlane for performing that piece of bullshit. I wonder if he wrote it. Basically, it amounted to how to tell the audience you were fucking your co-star without saying you were fucking your co-star: you wrote her a fawning, laughable farewell because you killed off her character. To borrow from "Upstart Crow," when Shakespeare's friends are laughing at the Hamlet death scene because they consider Hamlet a comedy, not a tragedy: "You must have written that on a ladder it was so over the top."

On 7/30/2022 at 11:40 AM, Ceindreadh said:

Not gonna lie, I did tear up a bit when Charli said "I'm here Amanda."

Mind you, I did spend the rest of the episode wondering if it was going to somehow be reversed. 

I didn't. I cheered (I was also spoiled by the forums, but that was OK; it was my choice). Her death scene was supposed to be her big moment and she couldn't even do that well. I really hope she stays dead.

I choked up more when Isaac tells Kaylon Primary at the end: "These people are ... my friends." 

While I've enjoyed this season of "The Orville" (except for Charly; luckily there were enough scenes without her), too many episodes required the crew to be stupid, to make stupid decisions, and to act in stupid ways. I'd love to see "TV Sins" or "Pitch Meeting" on YouTube take apart some of the episodes.

Edited August 1, 2022 by SmithW6079

[greekmom]

I almost forgot to mention that when Charly died, I did google immediately: "Did Seth Mcfarlene break up with Anne Winters?"

I couldn't find anything.

[Joimiaroxeu]

A governance of elitist fools...Blunt and maladroit...The quality of mercy is mightiest in the mightiest...The illegal bestowment of such largesse...
Wow what a lot of high-toned dialogue in this episode.

Does rum really keep hundreds of years? Bleh, I wouldn't drink it.

Bortus could not access the interior meat. I hate when that happens.

Ted Danson, no!

And then The Orville went Star Wars meets Top Gun. Pew! Pew!

Bye, Charley. Better luck in the next timeline. 🙄

Quote

I am curious if it is known whether the relationship preceded the casting, or if she was casted and then started dating. I'm also curious if, like with the Alara actress, the fact that she was written off the show is a reflection that they have broken up. My Google-Fu on this point is weak and does not seem to answer these questions. Anyone know?

I don't know but when I realized Charley was truly being killed off, my immediate thought went to something a character once said on The Expanse after coworker and occasional bedmate fiercely chewed him out: "Did that mean we're not fcuking anymore?" 😉

[Racj82]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Quick rundown of what I don't like about Charly and presumably others don't either:

1. Charly has been written as largely a one-note or two-note character, rather than as a full-fledged human. 

2. It isn't a particularly interesting note. Just being bitter at Isaac/the Kaylon over what they did can and did get tiring.

3. Even within the one-note of being bitter about the Kaylon, it was written poorly. She wasn't so much upset about the fact that thousands were killed, or that the Kaylon represented an existential threat to all biological beings or any number of other things, but it got mostly reduced to her not being able to tell her bestie/girlfriend she loved her. So if the escape pod had functioned properly and Amanda would have been able to flee with her, that would deflate things dramatically?

4. Even within the one-note writing for Charly, the Charly actress for most of her scenes was pretty bad. To her credit, her farewell line was delivered well. But most everything else was at best average and bland.

5. The notion of her ability to engage in "fourth-dimensional thinking" was never explained and basically was a handwave to give her near magical abilities. I am loathe to use the term Mary Sue because its use is often pretty sexist. But the notion of a newcomer who is better at most things than the rest of the crew fits here. 

6. Even if the writing and the acting for Charly had been the best version of each for her character, her presence meant taking up time from the characters that we have known and loved. I would not be surprised if she had gotten more air time than John and Talla, when the airtime for such a character should IMO have been more on the level of supporting characters like Marcus/Ty/Klyden. 

7. The fact that she was raised to a high level of prominence and that she has been dating Seth MacFarlane are not unrelated, and that seems icky.

Actually i should state, I know people don't like her. I've read it many times. I don't agree and he didn't bother me.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Racj82

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm really enjoying how they've shook up the geopolitics of the galaxy this season. 

There's been a ton of war too. I'm hoping they can wrap up with some sense of peace to end the season. 

[arjumand]

On 7/31/2022 at 2:20 PM, RedHawk said:

I liked your whole post but this summed up my feelings perfectly. I really miss the S1 and S2 versions of this show. S3 has been tedious, bludgeoning me with Messages, and although the look is impressive I’m personally not a fan of extended space battles. I always thought the look of the show was impressive, so not sure if spending further millions was necessary. I was pleasantly surprised and engaged in S1 when episodes would get dramatic and serious, and that is what hooked me. Now it’s all serious with tiny bits of comedy, and I struggle through most episodes. 

[snip]

And the overall editing/pacing this season has been bad. The episodes run longer so yay more story BUT then they drag. One example was a shot of boots walking through a corridor, the buildup to the reveal that Admiral Ted Danson was on the Krill ship, having brought the weapon. A shot of boots that went on many seconds too long. Seconds really do matter. It did not build tension, was just tedious. I’ve noticed several times over several episodes that shots took too long and told us nothing.

YES TO EVERYTHING! Unpopular opinion - no more space battles! Especially the long and tedious ones where I just have sudden flashes of people sitting in front of green screens - the longer the battle, the more I try to see the joins, so to speak.

And YES to complaints of about the pacing. So much YES. I thought Toupa's episode was the worst it's ever going to be, with the endless obstacle course and walk to rescue her - it just never ended! I was torn between MSTing it ("Nobody will be admitted during the breath-taking walking sequence!")  and grousing aloud that she'll be long dead by the time they get there.

And then this one came along. Not just the walking scenes, which managed to be exceptionally slow-moving: first we had all the little Orvilles getting into formation, and then boom! Then we had the let's convince the Kaylons space battle. Then we had the distract the Krill space battle. Then we had the bringing down the Death Star I mean, get to the weapon space battle. Then a fistfight, then a stand off, then the Starkiller base thing.

I mean, I wasn't expecting it to go there - we just got the weapon! Now we don't have the weapon! - and I certainly wasn't expecting Charly to go boom. The problem here was that the weapon was just a mcguffin, it became moot instantly, because Charly and Isaac are the only engineer scientists who don't keep backups? I dunno. It just seems like we needed to be all ironic, and reverse last year's rapprochement, as has been said upthread - now we're allying with the Kaylon against the Krill.

Unpopular opinion - I wouldn't have minded if the Orville had failed, and the weapon would have gone off. It would have been a more interesting result for Isaac, who seemed to be perfectly ok with wiping out his entire species. How might he have reacted if it really happened?

But still with Charly dead of course - and I'm hedging my bets here. It seemed pretty final. 🤞

[Chicago Redshirt]

If sci-fi has taught us anything, there is no such thing as 100 percent dead. Alt-universe/alt-timeline Charlies presumably exist, as could Charly clones, Charly androids, Charly simulator doubles, Charly's unmentioned-till-now twin sister...

If the series gets picked up for another season and Seth really wants to bring Anne Winters back, I'm sure he can come up with a way to do so.

[benteen]

Great episode. I'm surprised that tbe resolution with the Kaylons happened in this episode. I'm curious as to what the finale will feature but more on that later.

Nice shake up with the Krill and Moclans joining together and the Union joining with the Kaylons against them. Nice surprise with Admiral Ted Danson although I agree more development on this would have been nice.

I know she died but still, will but will you shut the **** up, Charly?! I'm tired as hell of this ENSIGN running her mouth off during every important negotiation that the crew and the Union has. It's amazing she hasn't torpedoes every mission this season by running off at the mouth with her unwanted and unhelpful commentary amd it just makes Ed and the crew look bad for not shutting down Charly's unprofessional behavior.

I thought Charly got a bum rap after the season premiere but that went away quickly. I've tried not to be too hard on Anne Winters as the writing has done the Charly character no favors but whenever the time comes for the actress to do heavy lifting, she is one-note and unconvincing and seems incapable of making more than one facial expression. The only person I felt sorry for during Charly's death is Amanda. If there is an afterlife, she doesn't deserve to spend it with a person as annoying as Charly.

On the subject of the space battles, they have done so many since last season that they have lost their effect. It's literally the same battle of Union ships (that look exactly the same) fighting the same type of battle. They really can differentiate the action. I'm not saying the action still isn't good and impressive but it's been done constantly now and it all looks the same. Not helping things is another crew raid into what looked like the exact same Moclan outpost from last week.

Still, adding the starfighter battle was a nice touch, as was Amanda's throwdown with Telaya.

I suspect next week Ed will help Telya escape to rescue his daughter. I certainly understand why he would do it but I would like Ed to finally face the consequences of his actions and get run out of the service as a result. I'm tired of Ed breaking the rules, getting his ass kissed for it and then smiling smugly about it afterwards. But when Gordon "breaks the rules" Ed automatically remembers regulations, reams him out for it and wipes his family out of existence. It seems the rules only apply to Ed when he doesn't have a personal stake in them.

I don't want to sound like I'm ripping the episode as I did really enjoy it. While I would be happy to see the show continue, if it ends here I will be fine because I feel like they got a chance to conclude things on their own terms unlike Legends of Tomorrow, a show I already miss. Maybe The Orville can do their equivalent of the original Star Trek movies in the future since everyone ses to be moving on now.

Edited August 1, 2022 by benteen

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know if the Union wants to defeat the Moclan-Krill alliance or just get to some kind of MAD. I don't think either side has the fire power to break apart the other. The Moclans can't get out of their own way, so actually a more subtle play would be to try to break up the alliance internally somehow. The Union needs to break them up, but I see it more likely some kind of containment policy against the Krill would be the ending. 

Originally the problem was the Kaylon v everyone. That's been resolved. So what's the Krill's policies for the galaxy? They're not expansionary; i.e., bringing Avis to the galaxy. 

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

Quote

The problem here was that the weapon was just a mcguffin, it became moot instantly, because Charly and Isaac are the only engineer scientists who don't keep backups?

Did they actually say they didn't have backups?  I wasn't paying the most attention so I very well could have missed that bit of information.  My view is that C&I developed the weapon and then they took it to Kaylon to discuss truce rather than having to commit geonicide.  The Kaylons agreed and as a result, there was not an immediate need to duplicate the weapon.  Then it was stolen and the pressing matter became stopping the Krill and Moclans from committing genocide.  During that mission, the weapon was destroyed.  The Kaylon are now members of the Union for real and not because the Union was holding them hostage with the weapon.  I would assume, should it ever be necessary, Isaac could recreate the weapon.  If the Union are smart (which is debatable), they should ensure that there are plans if needed in the future in case Isaac is not around.

I also think having the Kaylons as part of the Union effectively reduces the threat of the Krill and Moclans.

[benteen]

At least having a high-ranking admiral involved in stealing the device explains why it was so dam easy to steal it although it was STILL too easy to steal it.

If the weapon is the only thing standing between you and a genocidal attack by the Kaylons, then it needs to be mass produced and improved upon. The Kaylons are not going to stop until they find a way to overcome it and admitted to it. The Union building one weapon that only two people know how to use and just sitting on it is dumb.

[Chicago Redshirt]

56 minutes ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

Did they actually say they didn't have backups?  I wasn't paying the most attention so I very well could have missed that bit of information.  My view is that C&I developed the weapon and then they took it to Kaylon to discuss truce rather than having to commit geonicide.  The Kaylons agreed and as a result, there was not an immediate need to duplicate the weapon.  Then it was stolen and the pressing matter became stopping the Krill and Moclans from committing genocide.  During that mission, the weapon was destroyed.  The Kaylon are now members of the Union for real and not because the Union was holding them hostage with the weapon.  I would assume, should it ever be necessary, Isaac could recreate the weapon.  If the Union are smart (which is debatable), they should ensure that there are plans if needed in the future in case Isaac is not around.

I also think having the Kaylons as part of the Union effectively reduces the threat of the Krill and Moclans.

I don't think there was a line saying explicitly "There are no backups." But with Admiral Perry explicitly saying that Charly and Isaac are the only ones who know how to use the Krisper, it strongly suggests that there are no backups. After all, what good is a backup if no one knows how to use it?

The thing is that even assuming that the Krill/Moclans were terrible at science/engineering and did not report any details on the nature and mechanisms of the Krisper, they know it works and have a broad sense of how it works. They should not rest until they have created their own version.

Either the Kaylon are feigning being fans of peaceful co-existence, in which case they may resume their genocidal ways at any moment, or they are actually willing to be part of the Planetary Union, in which case that shifts the balance of power permanently against the Krill. (I suppose the Moclans can come crawling hat in hand to seek re-admittance or at least neutrality.)

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

I also think having the Kaylons as part of the Union effectively reduces the threat of the Krill and Moclans.

Reduced, but still a threat. The Krill were confident they were equal to the Kaylon threat. Breaking that alliance and containing the krill I think is good union policy. 

[rtms77]

Did the unaired episode explain this out of the blue weapon invention? Because that opening was abrupt and confusing. I too thought it was a simulation. 
 

Oh silly Mochlans! Just as Telaya said you lack imagination etc. Why would you assume she wouldn’t want at least equal control of the command? 
 

Sorry but not sorry, Charlie needed at least another season to make this death meaningful even a smidge. Her sob story just never resonated enough. Your in a military job, death is something that can happen especially in war. Get out if you don’t like it. Being Seth's gf doesn’t count. 
 

Who only makes one weapon. There is always a prototype first, in fact several prototypes.  Not to mention the schematics for the weapon have got to be with Issac and the union. Hope they are under lock and key. 
 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Either the Kaylon are feigning being fans of peaceful co-existence, in which case they may resume their genocidal ways at any moment, or they are actually willing to be part of the Planetary Union, in which case that shifts the balance of power permanently against the Krill.

The Kaylon seem to be logic machines that make only binary choices. So, yes, they are going along with peaceful co-existence until logic dictates they do otherwise. Isaac should be able to predict when the Kaylon are likely to get their tin suits up in a bunch over some Union move.
 

2 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Did the unaired episode explain this out of the blue weapon invention? Because that opening was abrupt and confusing. I too thought it was a simulation. 

Yes, please do tell those of us who haven't listened to the audio book episode whether there is anything in that episode that contributes to this one 

My current thoughts on Charly: 
They should have hung a lantern on it and just had Charly be Ed's new girlfriend who he got a job on the Orville.
Then the show characters could do all the whining for us.

Edited August 1, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, rtms77 said:

Did the unaired episode explain this out of the blue weapon invention? Because that opening was abrupt and confusing. I too thought it was a simulation. 
 

The unaired episode "Sympathy for the Devil" had nothing to do with the Kaylon or this weapon. It tangentially mentions the Krill. It is a fully self-contained situation which I summarized in a thread about the audiobook/ebook.

The only thing that one could say might have hinted at this was a couple episodes back when Isaac was working on something and Charly asked if she could help and eventually he allowed her to. It was never specified what Isaac was working on, but I guess we can assume it was the Kaylon Krisper.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

The Kaylon seem to be logic machines that make only binary choice. So, yes, they are going along with peaceful co-existence until logic dictates they do otherwise. Isaac should be able to predict when the Kaylon are likely to get their tin suits up in a bunch over some Union move.

Because the Kaylon do what the writers want them to do, they are going to actually choose peaceful co-existence.

But logic machines who previously determined that all biological lifeforms were a threat and therefore must be exterminated would probably come to the conclusion that the best approach would be to feign acceptance of Union membership, determine the threat of the Krisper and countermeasures and then eliminate it and the biologicals.

[shapeshifter]

40 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But logic machines who previously determined that all biological lifeforms were a threat and therefore must be exterminated would probably come to the conclusion that the best approach would be to feign acceptance of Union membership, determine the threat of the Krisper and countermeasures and then eliminate it and the biologicals.

That seems a little grim for a show that used to be a comedy. But you’re not necessarily wrong now.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Who only makes one weapon. There is always a prototype first, in fact several prototypes.

On the Manhattan project, after they tested the prototypes (that worked), they build Fat Man and Little Boy and sent them out. The Kaylon were an imminent threat, so the expediency doesn't seem that outlandish to me. Now, whether the schematics, math, etc., for this weapon was saved or not, seems shortsighted. Also, should they have been training other teams to make more? I think so. They qualified it as only Isaac and Charly knew how to build it, and they were in the middle of the actual war and needed to use it. So it's a lot happening at once. It's a tv-cheat, but the show plays fair with the audience. I can roll with it. 

Had either of the original nuclear weapons failed, they could make more (materials notwithstanding). Making the plutonium is straightforward but not easy. I was actually thinking of the materials for the weapon here, but this isn't that hard a sci fi show. 

Also, again, I am coming from the pov that the Union is fairly new and why all these mistakes are happening. I get the feeling that since the show is largely an homage to TNG (and nothing wrong with that), that the Union is being perceived as at the political maturity of the Federation. 

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Also, again, I am coming from the pov that the Union is fairly new and why all these mistakes are happening. I get the feeling that since the show is largely an homage to TNG (and nothing wrong with that), that the Union is being perceived as at the political maturity of the Federation. 

And bear in mind that the Federation as we have known it up until now is itself fairly young. It was only founded in 2160 or thereabouts, and we've only seen glimpses of its later development in the 23rd and 24th centuries. "The Orville" is set in 2422, only about a quarter of a century after "Picard" in the Star Trek universe. So really, it's at about the same level of political maturity as the Federation. We simply don't yet know how recently it was founded, but my best guess is that it wouldn't be that much younger than the Federation, relatively speaking. The only major technological distinction is that the Union doesn't have transporter technology (yet).

Edited August 2, 2022 by legaleagle53

[SmithW6079]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:16 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm really enjoying how they shook up the geopolitics of the galaxy this season. 

There's been a ton of war too. I'm hoping they can wrap up with some sense of peace to end the season. 

But without war, how they can have awesome Pew! Pew! Pew! CGI space battles? 😆

What's interesting (and perhaps sad) is that in the beginning, MacFarlane asserted that "The Orville" was a throwback to TOS, where hope and optimism were the driving factors in contrast/rebuke to the modern, nihilistic iterations of Trek, and yet, season 3 has been pretty dark and dismal (and no, I don't just mean Charly 😉).

I follow the Orville's Facebook page, and there you'd think Charly was the second coming of the Barrymores. One post said her performance was "Oscars [sic] worthy" (Oscar is for movies, but never mind). I wonder how much MacFarlane is paying for those posts. There were absolutely zero critical posts of the show.

[Commando Cody]

On 7/31/2022 at 12:33 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Quick rundown of what I don't like about Charly and presumably others don't either:

1. Charly has been written as largely a one-note or two-note character, rather than as a full-fledged human. 

2. It isn't a particularly interesting note. Just being bitter at Isaac/the Kaylon over what they did can and did get tiring.

3. Even within the one-note of being bitter about the Kaylon, it was written poorly. She wasn't so much upset about the fact that thousands were killed, or that the Kaylon represented an existential threat to all biological beings or any number of other things, but it got mostly reduced to her not being able to tell her bestie/girlfriend she loved her. So if the escape pod had functioned properly and Amanda would have been able to flee with her, that would deflate things dramatically?

4. Even within the one-note writing for Charly, the Charly actress for most of her scenes was pretty bad. To her credit, her farewell line was delivered well. But most everything else was at best average and bland.

5. The notion of her ability to engage in "fourth-dimensional thinking" was never explained and basically was a handwave to give her near magical abilities. I am loathe to use the term Mary Sue because its use is often pretty sexist. But the notion of a newcomer who is better at most things than the rest of the crew fits here. 

6. Even if the writing and the acting for Charly had been the best version of each for her character, her presence meant taking up time from the characters that we have known and loved. I would not be surprised if she had gotten more air time than John and Talla, when the airtime for such a character should IMO have been more on the level of supporting characters like Marcus/Ty/Klyden. 

7. The fact that she was raised to a high level of prominence and that she has been dating Seth MacFarlane are not unrelated, and that seems icky.

They made a lot of mistakes with the character.  Aside from being Seth's girlfriend and being shoehorned into a show where she wasn't needed.

-In her very first scene they made her unlikeable. She sat there and bitched out Isaac. So already she is written in a negative light. 

-Continuing on to the next episodes, she is angry and demanding. Every time Isaac showed up - like in the western - she was a freaking wet blanket. 

-Every time she turned around on the bridge it was that same "you're so stupid" stare.  

-She was special like Mozart and Wesley Crusher. She could do magical 4th dimensional things.  

-We all cheered when Adric died too. 

I admit I liked this episode. I liked all the space fighting scenes. I kept waiting for a Star Wars reference.  I questioned sending the only two people who could operate the weapon to the weapon. I was expecting "Operate the weapon or Kelly dies" for example. 

I hope the sandwich shows up next week. It might be a fun surprise. 

I haven't heard if this show is renewed, but if next week is the season finale, they are probably going to have some story on Ed's daughter. I think arresting an elected Krill leader would cause some retaliation and some sort of escape attempt or trade to get her back. 

After Charly blew up, I said "This episode had a happy ending".   Unfortunately, TV has a way of bringing dead people back.  They always bring back characters I couldn't stand.  I spent seasons waiting for characters to get killed off. They get killed off and then the killing off is ruined because they get brought back. Just die already and stay dead. 

[GreyBunny]

Thank Avis Mary Sue is finally gone. Seth needs to find a girlfriend who can act. 

Agree that the Very Special Season of the Orville has become tedious, I miss the lighthearted satire and creative absurdity with bits of seriousness sprinkled in to give it weight when needed. Lower Decks is (brilliantly) doing what the Orville should still be doing.

The space battle was cool. 

RIP Admiral Perry, I’m going to miss Ted Danson.

Edited August 2, 2022 by GreyBunny

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I hope the sandwich shows up next week. It might be a fun surprise

Gee, I forgot about the sandwich.  
Maybe I ate it? 🤭

 

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

After Charly blew up, I said "This episode had a happy ending".   Unfortunately, TV has a way of bringing dead people back.  They always bring back characters I couldn't stand.  I spent seasons waiting for characters to get killed off. They get killed off and then the killing off is ruined because they get brought back. Just die already and stay dead

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

She was special like…Wesley Crusher

I just looked up Wesley Crusher on Wikipedia, and it doesn’t look like like he ever died. He just sort of faded away.

Maybe if Seth wants to bring back Anne Winters (and if she wants to come back) Isaac will upload her mind into a humanoid Kaylon/Cylon in order to preserve her special 4-dimensional visualization skill. I can imagine Isaac doing that to “maximize efficiency” without first getting permission, or even just having a conversation about it. 

Or, they could get a new actor/character with 4-dimensional thinking.

Or, Isaac will upload Charly’s mind into a regular, Kaylon/Cylon-style robot in order to preserve her special 4-dimensional visualization skill. 
This last possibility seems like it would have the greatest potential for the punchiest punch lines at the character’s expense. 
And my phone would learn that Charly is a word.

Or, Charly could just return played by Winters with time travel likely involved.

Edited August 2, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

They made a lot of mistakes with the character.  Aside from being Seth's girlfriend and being shoehorned into a show where she wasn't needed.

The first mistake they made was not to introduce the character.  She was written like everyone already knew her.  At first I thought I had suffered some between-season amnesia, or that maybe she was going to be some kind of alien invader ala STNG that no one on the bridge realized shouldn't be there.  But then I realized she was a new character altogether, out of nowhere, no backstory, nada.  That's one reason everyone feels like she was shoehorned into the show and forced on us.  And the way they handled her characterization only made that impression worse.  They wrote her to be somewhat of an upstart, a misfit, a rogue-ish rebel, or "special" like @shapeshifter said.  A smart-talking, badass, bull in a china shop, the "conscience" of the ship, the only person willing to question everything where no one else would, to risk everything to save the day, whatever.  It may have turned Seth on but it just made most of the rest of us roll our eyes.  🙄

1 hour ago, GreyBunny said:

RIP Admiral Perry, I’m going to miss Ted Danson.

Yeah, I figure his demise occurred because Ted may not have wanted to continue the role, but I'm going to miss him too.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I just looked up Wesley Crusher on Wikipedia, and it doesn’t look like like he ever died. He just sort of faded away.

After he joined Starfleet Academy his appearances were fewer and farther between and he was only coming back for special episodes at that point.

I find it ironic that everyone was hoping Charly would leave, but now that not only has she left, but the character died, everyone's talking about how they might make her come back, LOL.  I'll add to that - Maybe she somehow survived the blast.  Her "special" powers included something that gave her that ability.  Or someone with the technology found a way to rescue her at the last minute.  Really reaching?  Perhaps, but it's not any more preposterous than any other suggestion so far.

[DoctorAtomic]

11 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

We simply don't yet know how recently it was founded, but my best guess is that it wouldn't be that much younger than the Federation, relatively speaking.

I don't see the evidence on the show for that. I get the impression it is young. Comparison to the Federation in terms of the year isn't really a one to one correspondence. I don't think we know who even founded the Union. It would seem the Earthers since they go to San Francisco all the time, but it could have been a joint effort with someone else. Or what predicated the Union in the first place, like Babylon 5. Which I think this show has more in common with. 

It makes more sense to be that they're young because they keep screwing things up. Kicking out Moclan now bringing in the Kaylon. All the mess with the Krill. 

[SmithW6079]

7 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

Seth needs to find a girlfriend who can act. 

Halston Sage (Alara) was a decent actor, and her character was integrated from the start, with a proper backstory. I'm guessing she and Seth broke up and that's why he wrote her out mid-season.

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I find it ironic that everyone was hoping Charly would leave, but now that not only has she left, but the character died, everyone's talking about how they might make her come back, LOL.

Not because we want her back, but because we're dreading how Seth will bring back his girlfriend. He's letting his dick make creative decisions. (Unless they had a massive break-up and killing off her character was his way of getting back at her.)

I love how everyone refers to Admiral Perry as "Admiral Ted Danson." 😆

Edited August 2, 2022 by SmithW6079

[sharkerbaby]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:49 AM, shapeshifter said:

Yep. Because we had recently seen Isaac appear in human form.

Isaac was only able to appear human in their version of a holodeck.  He wasn't wondering about the ship looking like a human.  So unless the facility the device was in was outfitted in what amounts to holoemitters as far as we know, kaylons can't look like humans

[shapeshifter]

53 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

Isaac was only able to appear human in their version of a holodeck.  He wasn't wondering about the ship looking like a human.  So unless the facility the device was in was outfitted in what amounts to holoemitters as far as we know, kaylons can't look like humans

In "Twice in a Lifetime":

• "Meanwhile, Isaac and Charly are sent to find replacement dysonium for the core, and Isaac, disguised as a human, attempts to bond with her but is rebuffed."

I had to look it up because I was confused and thought it was "From Unknown Graves" in which:

• "Meanwhile, the crew rescue cyberneticists Dr. Villka and a peaceful Kaylon named Timmis from an abandoned planet. Villka and her late father had repaired and rewired Timmis to give him a full suite of emotions and he shows deep regret for the Kaylons' actions. Claire convinces Isaac to undergo the procedure; though it is briefly successful, he reverts to his original state due to being from a later generation of Kaylon." 

Anyway, I first considered that the crew members stealing the Kaylon Killer MacGuffin were Kaylons that looked like humans.

[sharkerbaby]

I forgot about the handheld holographic generators used in previous episode.